Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #349 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 349 Sunday, 16 February 1997 Today's Topics: New Standard Tuning question Fripp stuff WOMAD, anyone? another of those tull - kc links Enticing clues from Mr. Fripp Re: RF Questions & Goodbye Expectations Another crisis E.T. Newsletter Submission RE: Elephant Talk Digest #343 McDonald and Giles my reply to Mr. Fripp Robert's Postings Having Fun in Massachusetts More questions? More replies. Four things KC anecdotes Robert Fripp never got called an asshole... Epitaph premier Prof. Fripp, Rhet & Comp Cheap Looping Re: Elephant Talk Digest #345 Re: Metrical Structure of "Breathless" books by Fripp Need a break from you know what? Voices of (T)Reason ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ********************************************************************** TOP TIPs for the day: Send your posts *only* to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. Posts sent to any other address will never make it to ET! And please, posts in plain ASCII please -- posts in HTML format, especially, will either be bounced back or disappear into the ET wastebasket. Thanks Toby ********************************************************************** Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 22:58:07 UT From: "Rob Messinger" All this talk about trying to approach Fripp reminds me of the Farside comic strip in which two apes are sitting under a tree eating bananas and one says to the other "You know, Sid, I really like bananas . . . I mean, I know that's not profound or nothin' . . . Heck! We ALL do . . . But for me, I think it goes much more beyond that." Heck! all Krimson fans/enthusiasts really like King Crimson but some of us feel that our appreciation of the music and/or band member(s) goes much more beyond that and feel a need to tell them that while thousands (millions?) of people like their music our appreciation is greater. In the few instances where I was face to face with celebrities that I admired I really wanted to say something clever/profound and give thanks for their music that has brought me much joy [or frustration trying to figure out Krimson guitar parts] but realized that it has probably all been said before and rather than causing a person I admired to "Suffer Through A Few Moments Of Sincere Compliment" I chose to keep my mouth shut, hoping that my being at their performance adequately showed my thanks/appreciation to them. Is there any authorized guitar sheet music available for Krimson (Discipline era) other than the guitar tabs found at various web sites? I've found that most of the tabs are close interpretations at best and completely misguided at worst. If there isn't any authorized sheet music available, does Fripp have any plans to make this available? What are Fripp's thoughts about enthusiasts making their best guesses at Krimson material available to all in the various tab sites on the Internet? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:27:08 +0100 (MET) From: Johannes Korn Subject: New Standard Tuning question I have a question for the musicians among you, concerning the New Standard Tuning developed by Robert Fripp. I have some experience in playing violin and guitar, and recently I purchased a Chapman Stick. As all these instruments are tuned differently (violin in fifths, guitar in fourths with one major third, Stick with the melody strings in fourths and the bass strings in fifths) I have come to think about different tunings, and why they work/ don't work, are efficient or not. So my question is: why is there a minor third on top of all the perfect fifths in the Crafty Tuning? Wouldn't it be more logical to tune the guitar in fifths all over the fretboard? Maybe it is just not possible to tune a guitar string so high, or is there a deeper reason (like the third in the common guitar tuning enables you to play barred chords more easily)? Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this. Johannes * ---------------------------------------------------- * Johannes Korn - johakorn at whisky dot biologie dot uni-freiburg dot de http://whisky.biologie.uni-freiburg.de/~johakorn/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:40:56 -0700 From: Randy Raymer Subject: Fripp stuff I have read with great interest Mr. Fripp's musings,and the thoughts of the other list members regarding his questions and feelings.If he is reading this,I would say to him that it is obvious that he is very much admired by the people here,and when people feel that way about a performer,I think it's only human nature to want something more than just a cd or a video-perhaps an autograph,a handshake,or a few minutes of conversation.There are many people in music whom I have various amounts of admiration for(Mr. Fripp included),and if the opportunity presented itself,I would certainly enjoy meeting them and talking to them.But the question is would they want to talk to me? In general probably not.It's a basic right of any human encounter-the right to say no. Randy Raymer *-------------------------------- "Today I felt it pass over me, A breath of wind, From the wings of madness." Charles Baudelaire *-------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Eric Henry Wynter Best Subject: WOMAD, anyone? Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:28:38 +1100 Dear ETers, I will be attending the WOMAD festival in Adelaide, South Australia, at the end of this month, and I am thinking that it might be good to catch up with any of our ET family who might also be going. This will be my first WOMAD and I am quite excited about it- an excess of musical riches, including Britain's other great guitarist, Richard Thompson, accompanied by the bassist Danny Thompson. Wow! [The last RT concert I saw- about a decade ago- was, for me, one of those timeless musical moments of pure presence that has been the subject of recent ET discussion.] If anyone is interested in catching up in Adelaide, please drop me an email at ebest at world dot net. Now we all know who won't be there, don't we? "Robert, we antipodeans feel jilted." [summoning up buckets of sincere grief] "You send us heaps of love letters, yet keep all your hot dates for others. Is it fear of falling off the earth or being confused by the water going down the plug hole in a clockwise direction? If it will help, we can provide you with special glasses that invert images so that things do not look upside down." Changing subjects, I recently obtained a copy of AB's 'Op Zop Too Wah'. For anyone still unconvinced about AB's musical abilities, this should settle the matter! It is "resplendent [with a] divergence" of musical treats. I also picked up a newish album by Robin Williamson [Incredible String Band] 'Island of the Strong Door'- a delightful, muse infused album for all you aged, hippy ETers out there. [C'mon, admit it!] Associating wildly now: speaking of acoustic music, I am really impressed by Adrian and Robert's acoustic guitar playing. Robert uses the accoustic guitar with stunning effect on KC's early albums and his LoCG work is probably well known to us all. Adrian's acoustic offerings on his recent albums I have also found delightful. So, on the top of my Christmas wish list is that those rascally regal red ones explore the musical potential of their acoustic prowess in their next recorded celebration! Of course, my right to vocalise my desires is balanced by the artists' rights to ignore them or judge them ill considered. So there. Hope to see you at WOMAD! Eric Best. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:40:21 +0000 From: Baz Page Subject: another of those tull - kc links listened to Darryl Way's Concerto for Electric Violin last night (Darryl Way played violin on Heavy Horses) the drums on CfEV were provided by Ian Moseley (?sp) and Ian Moseley played drums for Trace (pretty obscure but excellent dutch band, a sort of dutch ELP, rockin' the classics) on which DW added some violin. Ian Moseley was/?is drummer for Marillion. A previous drummer for Marillion was Andy Ward, formerly of Camel. Mel Collins was a Camel member in the mid-to-late 70s Mel Collins was in Crimso?! so Tull > Darryl Way > Trace (Ian Moseley) > Marillion (Andy Ward) > Camel (Mel Collins) > KC There are sooooo many connections stemming from Mel Collins because of his Canterbury Scene links It just so happens that my senior school music teacher, a Mr Phil Bond, was married to the sister of the Trace keyboards player Rick van der Linden. And yes, this is the van der Linden family of Focus fame (brother Pierre) Does that mean that I have six degrees of separation between myself and KC? that's it GP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:26:25 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Enticing clues from Mr. Fripp Several posts ago Robert Fripp noted that hardly anything in his life was arbitrary. I don't know if this aspect of KC lore has been previously discussed, but you can look at some of the aphorisms he left directly on his vinyl recordings and find out how meticulously planned his career has been, at least in the early 1980s. (To do this, you need *vinyl* copies of Fripp's albums--the messages are in the exit grooves. CDs, alas, do not possess them.) >From Fripp's first solo album, _Exposure_ (1979): Side 1--"1981 - is the year of the Fripp." Fripp often referred to the "Drive to 1981" during this period. King Crimson was re-formed in 1981. Coincidence? Side 2--"The aim is freedom of conscience and truth." There, for all of you wondering what the aim of this "man with an aim" has been. >From Fripp's second solo album, _Under Heavy Manners/God Save the Queen_ (1979): Under Heavy Manners side: "All succumbs to the face of persistence." God Save the Queen side: "New music is not a style, it is a quality." I interpret these to refer to the music directly within the groove. Fripp's manually-repeated arpeggios in "The Zero of the Signified," for example, demonstrate the ultimate in persistence. My copy of Fripp's _Let the Power Fall_ (Editions EG, 1981) has no messages inscribed in the exit grooves--do the original copies, and I just have a re-pressing? Anyway, Fripp's liner notes refer to the aforementioned "Drive to 1981" and then instruct us to "Now, forget all this." (i.e. time for a new direction in his career--KC reborn). The first track is entitled "1984." Is there a coincidence to the 80s KC disbanding in 1984, or had Fripp already determined that the band would only serve his aim during the years 1981-1984? Most enticingly, the exit grooves to side 2 of _The League of Gentlemen_ (1981) tell us that "the next step is discipline." (Remember the 80s KC band was first going to be called Discipline.) "Discipline" is also the last word uttered by J.G. Bennett on the final track "Indiscreet III," just before the bit of backward gibberish I haven't attempted to decipher (perhaps someone else has?) And lastly--I'm probably reading too much into this, but might the title _Three of a Perfect Pair_ have inspired Fripp's conception for the double trio? That is, after all, what we have--three perfect pairs of guitars, sticks, and percussives. This certainly seems to have more credence than all those "Paul is dead" rumors. Anybody now scouring their copies of THRAK and VROOM for clues to what the new millenium has in store for KC? Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu "The doors that are closed *because* of education are the saddest doors that humanity never walked through." --HARRY PARTCH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:20:58 -0700 (MST) From: Hugh Brydon Subject: Re: RF Questions & Goodbye Hello Everybody, And Goodbye. As this is my first and last submission to ET, I felt I should get my two cents in before I unsubscribe. When I found ET on the WWW last November, I was overjoyed and immediately signed up. Visions of up-to-the-minute reports and good conversation on the best band in the world danced through my head. That joy turned to embarrasment after reading the post by Adrian and the multitude of fawning fans that followed. Nobody said they could do it better than you Adrain, just a few naysayers wondered if you were right for the band. Don't get me wrong here, I love AB's solo and KC work. Embarrasment then turned to horror when I discovered that RF himself was responding personally to some of the posts about being unapproachable at times. >Whenever someone gets really nasty or personal, it doesn't touch me. >Firstly, because it has nothing to do with me: the commentator is >commenting on themselves. Secondly, it's like walking through a farmyard: >if you step into a cow pat, it's not particularly informative, or >instructive (other than telling you to wake up and look where you're >walking) but, because you wear Wellington boots, it doesn't touch you >either. Although it may make a nasty smell. And then you wash your boots. Responding to "cow pats" only lends them credibility, IMHO, although I'm sure RF will clarify that for me. Don't take this wrong either. I love RF for the genius that he is in the music that he creates. Now horror has turned to disgust at the fact that I'm still reading this and actually took it seriously for a while(no offense Toby, you do a great job). Music is music. Talk is talk. Music critics are in the middle somewhere(probably closer to the talk side) and I feel that this newsgroup is too. As a musician, I choose to isolate my self from all the talk(as much as I can anyway) and simply play; create music. I urge RF (and all musicians no matter what skill level) to do the same. Why waste your time finding that "the net balance (in a love/hate, nice guy/creep way) simply balances"? Why not spend your time doing what you really love and spent your life doing, writing and playing music? Now, to prove that I'm a complete hypocrite, here are my oppinions to the questions that RF posed. i)What is the nature of the relationship between the audient/enthusiast/fan and the musician? The musician creates the music. Everyone else merely listens if they choose to. ii)What are the rights of the audient/enthusiast/fan? Only the rights they were born with. These also belong to everyone else on the planet. iii)What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audient/enthusiast/fan? None, though moral responsibilities and obligations vary from person to person. iv)What do you personally, as an audient/enthusiast/fan expect of your artists? Musical integrity. v)What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient/enthusiast/fan expect of Robert Fripp? see answer to question iv. Now having said all that I would like to pose a question to RF himself. As part of your personal discipline, how do you use ET to help you serve your aim? Everything i've written here is, of course, IMHO, and therefore is neither right or wrong. If anyone feels they must respond to anything in here, please feel free to do so by email. Sorry about the lengthy post, but I assure you it won't happen again. Hugh Brydon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:52:37 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Expectations Hello, Enjoy most posting's especially RF. On my expectations of Robert Fripp is To be someone special, to be himself. Warmly, Joe Basile ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 97 01:58:01 EST From: "Neil J. Cavanagh" <76111 dot 3636 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Another crisis >NJC: ... The presence of Robert Fripp in this forum, be it temporary or >permanent, ... invites more careful consideration and reflection to the >table. >RF: Why? NJC: I think you've addressed this question in a different letter with the same words: >RF: ... I have some sympathy with the commentators who have posted >relatively unconsidered opinions (which have their own value and are >insightful) but who might not have anticipated the repercussions of >careless commentary. The performer grows up in public. Maybe now, also the >commentator. If a commentator learns to consider his opinions with the intention of pleasing one Robert Fripp, he may get one result; If he learns instead to take care with his commentary with the intention of being a sensible human being, he may get quite another. I am typing this sentence right now because someone, in this case RF, has asked me a question. But this is only the beginning of the answer to the question, "why I am writing this?" Am I trying to impress someone? The "why" of what I do is crucial to the outcome but it's much harder to notice at the time. "Why" do some fans feel they need to personally thank RF for his work? Why do I personally feel the need to thank and compliment RF for his recent contributions to this forum? The answer has less to do with him than with me. I don't think RF needs be thanked in the ways described here previously. His work, be it musical or otherwise, may be its own reward. As RF would seem to agree, if someone says "I only want to thank" or "I just want to thank" there is something hidden. "Just" and "Only" often mean the opposite what the speaker imagines they do: A man writes to his long lost love and says "I just wanted to see how you were doing"; however, "we" hear through this; he wants a great deal more than that. The fan "only" wants to meet his favorites because the energy they have somehow sent into him, through live performance and otherwise, feels special, valuable and real. What happens next is rarely spoken about. In my view, regrettably, what the fan does next with those "diamonds" includes tossing them to the dirt as quickly as possible. "Hey, that stuff is hot, and I never learned what to do with it anyway," one part of me says. The word that seems to *underlie* many encounters with RF (and many other situations in which "the fan meets the idol") is disillusion, as in "I was very disillusioned when Belew chewed me out for so and so." There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with having some of one's illusions shattered, if one is prepared to handle such a blessing. It never fails to happen when I reread a post I'm about to send off to the world, and I see through my vanity and my lies (when I remember that I don't know what I'm doing.) But a response from me was called for by RF himself, and silence on the net is ambiguous. Now at least it is clear I'm a fool. Neil Cavanagh njc at tiac dot net Mystery Pages http://www.tiac.net/users/njc P.S. Requested suggestions for Robert Fripp's autobiography, presented with respect and without cynicism: "The Man Who Sold the World, With A Wave of His Hand And A Cup Of Tea." "My Life As A Terrified Animal, Or So It Seemed To Someone Else." "Read Chapter Four Before Asking Me To Sign This Book" "Meetings With Elephants Who Learned To Talk Their Way Backstage" "For Those Who Just Wanted To Know About Ian Wallace And What He's Up To" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:19:13 -0500 From: Jeffery Duke Subject: E.T. Newsletter Submission >I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but I think it is time: >Mr. Fripp: SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR GUITAR!!!!! >By commenting, you almost reduce yourself to the same level of the people >you have a problem with. Plus you use too many multi-syllable words. I >fed one of your posts into my grammer checker, and it had a fit. Us >'mericans just can't deal with all them BIG words, plus confusing >paragraphs where every other word is "moment" >Thank you, and don't worry, I'll buy everything you put out (although I >think you put out a too few many ep's from the most recent - shades of >Kate Bush!!) Not to be a jerk, but, as Fripp likes to say, LIGHTEN UP!!! It's music, to be enjoyed, and a man who speaks his mind. I can definitely appreciate that, in a time when most people are so gutless as to never allow themselves the opportunities in proper communication. In other words, and IMHO, you are way off base. And by the way, I LOOK for his posts because I enjoy reading multi-syllable words. :) Oh, while I'm here, I have just a small question, if anybody knows, cause it really interests me--- \/ What ever happened to David Cross? Did he fall of the edge of the earth? Did some record company come by and take him away to a distant island, never to be heard from again? I liked his violin playing on the "Starless and Bible Black", album, and I'm trying to use some of his techniques in my own playing. I was always impressed cause he never used effects, I alway have at least a Flanger or something to fatten it up a bit. The rock violin is pretty difficult, when you are competing with a "echo-surfing guitar wacko, who likes it loud." :) Oh, and Mr. Fripp, have a great day! You certainly help mine from time to time. Regards- Jeffery A. Duke Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 19:48:40 From: drj_saro Subject: RE: Elephant Talk Digest #343 first of all allow me to apologise for the length of this post, but this issue of ET has _many_ issues that i feel compelled to comment upon. >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:46:15 -0500 >From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" >Subject: Responsibility? No way..... >Fripp said.... >>I hold commentators responsible... and GEA replied... >NOOOOOOO!... It is said that the perception of >a celebrity takes place in a totally different part of the brain than >perception of that actual person in regular social circumstances. >So Mr Fripp: please return to the lurking shadows of our imagination, >where we >are free to say what we feel. i, for one, welcome RF's participation on this list. it is rare for a 'star' to show such an interest in his 'fans'. i do not feel that his prescence precludes my "saying what i feel", only that i must assume "responsibility" for what i _do_ say. that means i have to be able to back up my statements with logic and reasoning instead of bull-shit. i think that _this_ is a good thing! this form of communication allows for unconsidered responses to be quite common-place, resulting in relentless debates of matters of little or no consequence which often escalate into flame-wars leading to bruised feelings (and which lead to Adrian's posting, which while it may have been heartfelt was IMO ill-advised (not to belabor the point, but compare and contrast AB's post with _any_ of RF's (i know that "they are two different people", but it _does_ go further than that!)) . >From: "Pooh Head Bucket?" >Unfortunately, Mr Fripp, most of us are full of shit. Feel free to >ignore us. > Tom Soriano hear, hear (and right on)!! >From: "Mark Fenkner" >I would believe that almost all music shares similar effects. > >I arrived at these thoughts through noticing tendencies in myself. I >noticed that when I listened to music, if the music were of an emotional >nature my body would 'manufacture' sympathetic emotions to the music. >If I was already feeling a certain emotion, I would play songs that >heightened the emotion that I was experiencing. Often these emotions >were sad or melancholy and the state that I would put myself in was >certainly not very beneficial to myself. sadness or melancholia are not _bad_ emotions, only part of the spectrum of human experience. >...imagining all sorts of crazy things. if you really do think that your thoughts are/were "crazy", have you ever considered seeking the care of a mental health professional? >The other tendency that I often found in myself occurred when I >listened to music of a more technical nature. I often found myself >talkingor thinking about the technical aspects of the music or the >performer whenever I was listening to this type of music. this seems perfectly natural to me! >I would chatter to my friends about how Bill Brufford was such a witty >drummer for playing in 7/8 over top of a 4/4 rhythm, etc. Or when the >guitar solo came, I would be thinking about how fast Robert's fingers >were rather than hear the music. >Needless to say, this always stole the spirit from the music. this, however seems somewhat extreme! >All of these problems became amplified when I became a 'musician' >(this sorta reminds me of the statement >"opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one"). the only possible response to this is..."and they all stink!" >Now, I only occasionally buy CDs for the sake of collecting why bother, then? is it habit? ritual? > and I almost never listen to the hundreds that I own. then why don't you do something worthwhile and donate them to a school, or library, or hospital? >It has been a slow development but as I consider the value of music more >and more, it seems that listening to music is quite pointless and >probably detrimental. this seems a severe reaction to something _other_ than music! >To all of the people on this list that still are avid music enthusiasts, >what is the value of music to you? Does it serve any constructive >function in our lives? yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!! music is very important in my life, not just as background noise or a sound-track, but for a _connection_, not just to the artist that produced it, but in a very real way to all of the other people in the world who also listen and enjoy and "get something" out of it (that "something" varies from person to person and is very hard to put into words). it is strangely exhilarating to think that thanks to recorded music there is very likely at least one other person _somewhere_ in the world listening to the same piece of music that i am _RIGHT NOW_!(this is a substantially different experience than being in the audience for a live performance). The 'meaning' of music (with words/lyrics) transcends 'mere' poetry, just as poetry transcends 'mere' words (while instrumental music exists in a different realm, it too conveys meaning.(in fact, multiple meanings, since it is more open to personal interpretation)). to be cut off from art (of any kind) would be harsh, but to be cut off from music would be unbearable to me. > Or, similar to what Mr. Fripp said in the Guitar >Craft column of Guitar Player magazine, is it only the toilet used by >our emotions? Currently, it seems no better to me than masturbation. >And how could a logical man like Mr. Fripp take part in this? i can only hope that RF will respond to this himself. >Sorry, I had to laugh. in light of your other comments, laughter may not be an appropriate response! >From: A tree is best measured when it is cut down >Subject: getting vertigo from pictures of buildings > This newsletter is so strange. The whole concept of talking about >music is strange. It's easy to discuss technical issues (i.e. what kind >of effects do you think Rock Guitarist X uses when he does that >gorgeous solo in "Crow's Face In Butter" etc...) It's like discussing >the grammar in a poem. the grammar, the choice of words, the 'voice' _are_ technical issues when discussing a poem. they are the tools the poet uses to convey his aim. and why should we limit ourselves to what is easy? artists rarely do. > All forms of art (whatever that is), in my opinion, >point to a Great Something that cannot be expressed or conveyed without >either A) the direct first-hand experience of said Great Something, or >B) an alternative, more visceral means of communicating (art). this is a valid point (if somewhat "fuzzy"), however, although words are limited/limiting when discussing "art", until human beings develop telepathy, words are the tools we have at our disposal to attempt to share the internal processes that art evokes in (most of) us. that sharing is an important part of the human experience. isn't part of what drives the artist an attempt to share 'something' with his audience? >From: be82842%binghamton dot edu at cs dot man dot ac dot uk >Subject: response to Fripp's letter >This seperation between peon and star, however, is one of the most >intruiging aspects of the relationship between performer and audience. >The distance between them creates excitement, wonder, imagination, awe, >respect and the placing of the artist on a pedestal which I know I >personally enjoy. In a way, Fripp, by alleviating this gap, is >destroying an integral part of the audience/performer relationship -- >namely the mystery that surrounds them. >Sincerely, >Lev Kalman-Blustein then Fripp is performing even more of a public service than i initially attributed to him. this is a harmful myth and _should_ be destroyed. i question the value to either party of "placing the artist on a pedestal"( unless he desires a higher vantage point). this , to me, does not seem to be a healthy version of the performer/audient relationship. >From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com >Subject: Crimson Covers >"I Only Paint What I See..." wrote: >>(Imagine my dismay if KC were to release an album of cover tunes... >>I would be dumbfounded. A veritable deer in the headlights.) > >Now I think this is a fine idea. >Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- i think that this would be pretty cool, too! but i would not be bold enough to make any suggestions. (although my evil little mind _is_ churning away in the background.) first of all, the song selection _they_ choose would tell _something_, then to hear KC attack/dis-assemble/re-assemble/re-invent some previously known piece of music would also be a novel and worthwhile experience. >From: elizabeth west >Subject: Re: non-consensual acts > >When we see KC in concert Robert is playing guitar/devices, Adrian is >playing guitar and singing, Trey is playing Warr guitar, Tony is playing >Stick or bass, Bill and Pat are playing precussion. When we record a >bootleg of KC the machine that the performance was recorded on and the >machine that you are listening to the performance on are doing all of >these things, not KC. granted there are things that electronic recording equiptment does not capture, but this seems to be an extreme viewpoint. you seem to be attributing mystical qualities to a machine. are you a technophobe? when you read this over the internet, didn't _i_ still write it? >When we buy an KC album it is a performance >played exactly for the purpose of recording it. It is a love letter... >and seeing them live is definitely a hot date. If you are going to >record all of your hot dates all you end up with is a good pornography >collection(Rude books!....With rude pictures....) well, it may be wanking but it still has a purpose! >From: "Thomas W. Kozal" >Subject: Fripp >I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but I think it is time: >Mr. Fripp: SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR GUITAR!!!!! >By commenting, you almost reduce yourself to the same level of the >people you have a problem with. disagree, disagree, disagree! if you have a problem with RF's posts, skip over them! see my responses to Lev Kalman-Blustein & Gordon Emory Anderson above for reasons why _i_ value RF's participation in this forum. >Plus you use too many multi-syllable words. I fed one of your posts into >my grammer checker, and it had a fit. Us'mericans just can't deal with >all them BIG words, plus confusing paragraphs where every other word is >"moment" even if this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, you do, not only yourself, but the rest of us as well, a disservice. i do not appreciate being tarred with that particular brush. *------------------------------------- thank you for your time and attention. in closing, i would just like to add that i agree with RF in his comments regarding the actions of audients recording/photographing concerts being disruptive and counter-productive to the experience. i was guilty of those sins in the folly of my youth and i can attest that i was less "there" to the music than i should have been, even though i _never_ used flash when i took pictures, and always took pains not to obstruct the view, and often even had the express permission of the performer, i was _still_ less there (and the document does not make up for it). Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro Date: 2/11/97 Time: 7:48:43 PM This message was sent by Chameleon *------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Scott Bickel" Subject: McDonald and Giles Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:59:02 -0600 According to the credits on the albumn I have (Polydor 2302 070): Side One: 1. Suite in C; including Turnham Green, Here I Am and others (words and music by Ian McDonald) Time: 11.21. Written in Detroit, Los Angles, and Earls Court between December 1969 and February 1970. For Charlotte. 2. Flight of the Ibis (words by B.P. Fallon, music by Ian McDonald) Time: 3.18. The original melody for 'Cadence and Cascade'. Written in Spring 1969 with new words from Beep. 3. Is She Waiting? (words and music by Ian McDonald) Time: 2.40. Written in Earls Court in the summer of '69, between gigs. 4. Tomorrow's People - The Children of Today (words and music by Michael Giles) Time: 7 mins. Words written in 1967, then extended and arranged 1970. For Tina and Mandy, my children. Side Two. 1. Birdman; involving The Inventor's Dream (O.U.A.T), The Workshop, Wishbone Ascension, Birdman Flies!, Wings in the Sunset, Birdman - the Reflection. (words by Peter Sinfield, music by Ian McDonald) Time: 21.45. Mostly written in the spring of 1968, apart from the Flying bit which was done in 1970. Original idea by Peter Sinfield. Personnel: Ian McDonald - Guitar, Piano, Organ, Saxes, Flute, Clarinet, Zither, vocals and sundries. Michael Giles - Drums, Percussion(including milk bottle, handsaw, lip whistle and nutbox), vocals. Peter Giles - Bass guitar. Steve Winwood - Organ, and Piano solo on 'Turnham Green'. Michael Blakesley - Trombone on 'Tomorrow's People'. Strings and Brass on 'Birdman' and 'Suite in C' arranged and conducted by Mike Gray. Engineer - Brian Humphries Assistant Engineer - Richard Digby Smith Recorded at Island Studios during May, June, and July 1970. Scott Bickel E-mail: Scottb at fcconline dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:03:01 -0500 (EST) From: Pietro Sabatino Subject: my reply to Mr. Fripp Dear Robert, I have been enjoying your music for just overa year now and i thank you for giving me countless hours of enjoyment. With that out in the open here is my opinion... First, i think that a lot of people on this digest just like to hear themselves talk (or in this case see themselves type). With all due respect i think this entire discussion is silly. This brings me to my second point, the responsibility of the artist it to compose, write, and perform whatever he, she, or they want. The responsiblilty of the listener/fan is to listen to whatever he, she, or we want. If we like it, fine; if we hate it, no problem. Remember, music is another form of art and should be judged no differently than any other. Thank you all for your time in reading this. the waiting man, Pietro Sabatino psabatin at ic dot sunysb dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 05:57:47 GMT From: qghost at ptd dot net (Ghost) Subject: Robert's Postings I must say, Robert's postings to the ET lately have been great. I enjoy reading is inputs. His dissecting of Randall's "Fripp-Off" note was unbelievable. The thought process and wit is uncanny. Kudos, Mr. Fripp (or is that Boppin' Bobby?) Ghost qghost at ptd dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:23:20 -0500 From: Ears Hart Subject: Having Fun in Massachusetts Hello, hundreds of whirlpool-victims! Our bi-partisan 'debate' (which has been raging since M. Lincoln queried about Mr. Fripp's social skills) has provided hours of reading-pleasure for this participant. The cool thing about communication is that it evolves over time. Some of those of us who are really paying attention to the ebb/flow of The Tide of Words this international conversation constitutes are having discussions external to the 'Elephant Talk' forum; as doing so provides a conduit for more rapid and (...shall I say?) 'intimate' discourse. A lot of it is cartoon-like. Much of it is a sociologist's wet-dream. For example, one respondant (GV) equates common courtesy with [being an]"automaton" and, later, that "One may learn from artists." One of the respondants unintentionally (though, very accurately) encapsulates the motive behind many of the communiques here in this forum ("If I write a Profound-enough response, maybe The Elusive One will respond directly.") when purporting, "It appears to me that some sort of "hero-worshipping" underlies much of this intense desire on the part of some individuals to meet and interact with musicians such as Mr. Fripp." Right on! Robert Fripp, accurately, points at causal-dysfunctional attitudes, when he writes, "In practice, there are (false) perceptions on both parties' sides that the relationship is different. This includes sycophantic [n. "fig-shower"; flatterer; parasite; toady] fans who believe that they are more important [?] than they are [?], disinterested artists who refuse to listen to and react to the feedback provided, arrogant/aloof fans that believe that the artist "owes them" something, and other such dysfunctional relationships. These end as all dysfunctional relationships end: quickly and abruptly." Strangely, Mr. Fripp continues to refuse to include himself as an equal in the group to whom he addresses; hence, exempting himself from responsibly offering the same courtesies he demands from the rest of humanity. Bottom-line: Mr. Fripp is (paradoxically) insisting upon respectful social treatment from an audience (his only) he appears to hold in-contempt enough to degrade, face-to-face, when careless enough to permit himself to be located by them. Additionally, Mr. Fripp seems expect his very proximity to communicate his wishes, comprehensively, to all of us. Now, run along, little Fripp-deifiers...the portion of Crimson-fans who don't have computers may not have fully received The Emanations. You should have heard the hysterical community-radio discussion of this last week. Har! I would like to thank Mr. Fripp for the repeated reference to a bit of the first letter I posted, early in the fray. Those words, "suffer through a few moments of sincere compliment" appear, judging from his utilizations of them, to have now gained a numinous quality they had entered this international forum without. Tantamount to kalopsia (just had to toss-in a hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian-word there...in keeping with the spirit of ET-discourse). Has anyone observed that two subdivisions of a larger whole (Crimson-fans) are displaying clear, um...psychological profiles here? Really. The juicier slice of 'the pie' ('the pie' being all published responses to Mr. Fripp's interesting questions re: performer vs. audience-member) is peopled by many persons (the very ones which Mr. Fripp probably seeks to avoid most) who communicate timidly (approving exclamations, w/o substantive content (blind fan-hood) = an active form of accountibility-avoidant timidity), as though an overbearing parent were doing the asking. Their perspective is uniformly impersonal; for their philosophic perspective does not include them. Their's is one in which they defer, to the 'eyes' of Robert Fripp, oversight, in an international forum, for human-decisions affecting the lives of others. I will insult no one with the most obvious historical examples of such mob-mentality. The more nutritious slice is discussing the topic from a philosophic perspective in which The Self is absent (the planets revolve around the Sun). There is no unuttered, potential reward/ consequence evident in their language/attitude for agreeing/disagreeing with Robert Fripp. The 'playing ground' being observed is level. All elements are equallyq well-lit...just a bunch of bodies running-around chasing things. In reading their contributions, one gets the clear sense that they believe that everything can be fine for everyone involved here. Even the angriest of these maintain their dignity and speak directly to Mr. Fripp; using this forum as a way to 'look into the eyes' of The Other while communicating. It is not a respect born in idolatry; but from a quiet, but active, understanding of what actions best improve and perpetuate The Species. And all of them listen to King Crimson. Listening, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:17:29 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: More questions? More replies. Hello Robert and ETers, We've been posed more questions, so I take a deep breath, gird my loins and type... RF: What was formerly a personal exchange is now a global exchange in public. Simply, "personal" moments now have a potentially public and global effect. (I don't recall seeing this addresed in ET before). Question: knowing this, do you think a performer might modify their behaviour in close encounters of the enthusiast kind? If so, how? Obviously, (to me, as a performer and a human being) the performer might react to this situation by being pretty darn careful what he/she says/does in public. As we collectively move toward becoming a global village (in a very literal way), the village gossip is as empowered as anyone else. Anyone who has lived in a small town, been part of a "small circle of friends", etc. knows you don't need the Internet to spread chatter, chit-chat... Public figures, however, have always been fair game for the press, for story-tellers (I'm guilty) (My Brush with Greatness) etc. I think it's clear that Robert has no interest in being a "public figure" but does have a need to bring music into the world, and makes the fewest compromises possible to do this. In fact, it seems that he spends a great deal of energy making it clear that he will not be -made- a "public figure", except when/where it's appropriate. (i.e. "The Lecture Tour", release events...). I can respect that, particularly if it means that the music will continue to flow. Having had my opportunity to offer " a few moments of sincere compliment", it's sort of embarassing in retrospect. Given the opportunity again (when/where appropriate), I'll either have something of value (to both of us, hopefully) to say/ask or..."There comes a time in every man's life when he should sit down and shut up. (A. Belew - Camp Fortune, Quebec) RF: A suggestion: volunteers to collate a data bank of information on various topics. Then, if anyone is in doubt about the repercussions of confronting a judge resulting from one's inability to tell the age of young people and a love of confectionary, just scroll through to "Lyrics: Easy Money / Variant I(b)ii". OK, we've started on that one. The FAQ page on the ET site is an attempt to provide this sort of information. As co-FAQ guy (Hey, Terry!) I would certainly appreciate it if you, Robert, would take the time to have a look at the material there and offer any corrections, updates, or additions you might care to make. Perhaps an introduction to Guitar Craft in your own current words...? RF: Second suggestion: the ongoing debate on the audience / performer relationship is building up a goodly amount of considered contributions. Who might be able to collate, and summarise, these two (with or without standard questionaire)? Who, indeed? I find the idea daunting. RF: So, this is an open question for the readership, as I kick the wasp nest of "Bootlegging Theory: A Deconstructionist Approach To Post-Modernism?": What view do we take of a non-consensual act? One's ideas can, and should, develop and change with time. I don't have the text available to me (the Atari can't read HD floppies) but if you can refer to the interview with Robert I posted a couple of years ago (the issue it's in is linked to the "Exposure" pages on the ET site), you'll find that Robert stated at that time, that (paraphrase) if he were a bootlegger, he would be an honorable bootlegger and send a portion of proceeds to the artist(s)/writer(s) in an anonymous fashion, -or- that it would be a matter of supplying at cost. (This is approximately what was said. When I get a chance to refer to the original, I shall, if necessary, recant/ restate this argument.) To me, this exonerates tape traders, if not the original taper who "punctured the event." This act is still non-consensual. I personally prefer to experience concerts (esp. KC) with just my senses and spirit. Anything else is a distraction. Heck, I don't even enjoy being there with friends unless they can devote their full attention to the event. "We'll talk later, please!" However, after the event, I'm afraid that I'm inclined to want to re-experience the music, even if I can't re-experience the event. So I trade. This probably makes me a co-conspiritor in said non- consensual act. I can't defend this except by proclaiming my love for music that has reached me. Does this make me someone who proclaims love in the middle of a rape? (to continue the hot date analogy) I will add that I've been bootlegged and I felt sort of flattered. This had little or no impact on my professional income or on the performance in question, in my estimation. Of course, Robert's aim and that of the band involved in my singular experience probably differ wildly, but I'm sure my band's performance required equal attention to that required by KC in order to fully grasp all that was going on, although for different reasons. This is, of course, only my own experience. Your mileage, and wishes, may vary. I am glad to see the tape amnesty continuing. Perhaps this will promote the legitimate release of some wonderful performances that may otherwise never see the light of day. This should also insure that they sound as good as they possibly can. (Thanks to Dave Singleton. I have a small studio and I've tried to "remaster" certain cassette recordings without nearly the results he is able to obtain. Of course, SADIE might help!) I welcome this, I'll buy them, and I'll feel good that the DGM family will be benefiting financially from it. I might have one lucked-into-after-the-fact contribution. (In fact, my companion and I seriously mulled it over and consciously decided not to take a camera or recorder simply because Robert didn't approve. (A magical night ensued. (However, a couple of weeks later, we were offered a dub of the show we had attended. Neither of us even hesitated. Yes, please. No $ exchanged hands, and we could call up some small part of the magic as needed. I have since traded this tape into a small collection of priceless [literally] punctures. The "Epitaph" box will render a fair chunk of this collection obsolete. I couldn't be more pleased. Better sound, a more durable format, lots of info [I hope], and support [-not- economic vampirism, fair exchange!] for DGM. Please, Robert, continue this trend. Zappa had his "Beat the Boots". Official and officialized-unofficial boots are welcomed by this Teamster.) BTW, I'd love to see a "taper's section" for KC performances. I won't be in it, but I'd certainly enjoy the resulting material. I do have a practical question for DGM, though. Is there any point in submitting material from the 90s? I understand (correct me if I'm mistaken) that KC's performances, since its latest reincarnation, have all been carefully preserved on DAT or ADAT. If so, I would think that any boots from this period would be redundant. The only reasons that I can see for wanting submissions from this period would be to find out exactly what's out there, and to revel in the occasionally hilarious/depressing/bewildering glimpses of the audience provided by a tape machine in the crowd. "FRIPP'S A TRIP!..." "..but you have to listen..." "I know this one..." "AAAWWWWOOOOOOO!!!..." "..this mic's great..." and other endearments. Maybe DGM is bootlegging us! That's it! A bonus promo CD with the KC audience Greatest Hits! A collection of ugly, embarassing, insightful comment culled from every KC boot available. Now that would be just. RF: Some people can even see it: something like an aura writ large. Probably, most ET contributors have experienced this and would be able to describe it, in their own form of words, if they examined their experience of their most moving / powerful / intense performances (some of which they may not have "liked" at all). Yes! Miles Davis at Massey Hall in the mid-70s. I was expecting (there's that word again.) something like "Bitches Brew". I camed armed with herbal preperations. What I got was a later band (Agharta period). -Very- intense. I found some of what I heard downright ugly, some incomprehensible, some perfectly beautiful, all of it so powerful that I forgot completely about my preparations and spent the evening with my jaw in my lap. It took me years to appreciate/understand what I heard/experienced that night. I was in an altered state for days after (certainly 2, maybe 3), without resorting to nature's finest. I couldn't grasp why something I couldn't say I had really "liked" had affected me so profoundly. KC and Soundscapes/Frippertronics, and a Jon Hassell performance have affected me this way as well, but I -like- that stuff. Anybody else had an experience like this? J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:32 -0500 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Four things Hi all Here's some items: 1) "The Andy Summers Trio" is playing at the Knitting Factory in NYC on 3/5. Anyone know if Tony is playing with him? 2) Saw this ad in the current issue of Tower Records' "Pulse" magazine: King Biscuit Flower Hour presents... RENAISSANCE. Recorded on October 14, 1977 at the Royal Albert Hall.... A must-have for all Yes and King Crimson fans! Huh? 3) Got the KC Live in Japan video yesterday. A very hot date indeed! My only complaint is the periodic "Earthquake-cam" bits which I found quite annoying. 4) Good Bowie performance on Saturday Night Live last week (2/8). Did "Scary Monsters". But...sorry, Reeves. You're not Bobby. Cheers, CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every Monday-Thursday at 9PM and 1AM, EST. --Lucien LaCroix ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:51:38 -0500 From: Bert Rubini Organization: Hillsborough Community College Subject: KC anecdotes Hi. Here's a couple of KC/Fripp related stories, I can't think of anyone better to share them with than ETers. Here's how two different generations responded to Fripp: MY DAD FRIPPS OUT The other night my father came over for dinner and we were sitting around talking afterwards. As usual, I had some music on at low volume. I had 5 CDs in my player and one of them was Fripp's "Let the Power Fall" (a frippertronics album). I happened to be out of the room when this one came on, and when I came back, my dad said: "I turned off your stereo, I think there's something wrong with it... it was making these weird electronic beeping sounds". You might imagine the ensuing conversation. HOPE FOR THE YOUNGER GENERATION? I was talking to an old friend of mine, I guy I don't see much, and he told me about his son Patrick (about 13 - 14 years old) who is really getting interested in music. In an effort to broaden his son's horizons, he played some KC for Patrick and his friends. Apparently they really freaked out over it, and totally loved it. One of Patricks friends went out the next day and bought every KC disc he could find!! Now Patrick's "garage" band is attempting to play some KC (I don't know which tune(s))! My buddy told me that Patrick's friends come over and they blast KC up in Patrick's room (just like we did when we were younger, right?). Their current favorite is "ThrakAttak". Hmmm. Maybe the younger generation has some potential after all. see you Bert R. ------------------------------ From: "Thomas J. Hranowsky" Subject: Robert Fripp never got called an asshole... Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:40:52 -0700 Several months ago, traveling home from a John Cale show in San Diego, it came to me in a sudden flash of brilliance...the PERFECT tune for King Crimson to cover has to be "Pablo Picasso". The song would be a wonderful platform for an extended jam and just begs for some "burning guitar" soaring over the top. Considering all the name-calling and bitching about Robert's attitude and whatnot it would be a very appropriate choice. Take your own advice Robert, "lighten up" and give this ditty a try. You and the boys would have a blast playing it and I bet it would burn down the house live. You could always make it a hidden track... Also, the idea of a King Crimson remix CD is worth pursuing. You have stated that the Crimson catalogue is a mutable entity, but so far, you have tweaked the material in a relatively tame manner...Adrian's vocals on "Cadence and Cascade", a bass-line here or there, and the cut and paste technique used on the live recordings. Time to go whole-hog methinks. "King Crimson in Dub"...I get hot flashes just thinking about it. King Tubby would have been the perfect choice to engineer such as project but he's dead. There are others that would certainly do justice to the material, names like Adrian Sherwood, Mad Professor, Scientist, Holger Czukay and Graham Lewis come immediately to mind. I'd suggest Lee Perry, but he'd probably think Crimson too "evil". A dub project would be a welcome addition to "the Collector's Series". By the way, you and I had a pleasant little conversation in front of the West 4th St. Church in the early eighties prior to the series of Frippertronic concerts held to "put a roof on Fripp's cottage." We spoke of the different energy involved in playing a matinee rather than at night. You were polite, approachable, and friendly. I have spent many, many hours this past 28 years listening to you and your music, and it has always been a balm to my soul and being. You can always count on me for a shingle or two...Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:37:07 -0600 From: Jim Messineo Subject: Epitaph premier I understand that the Epitaph premier is goig to be on TV in England. Could someone please provide the date of the showing, the time and the channel. Thanks Jim [ As of 15/Feb/97, DGM deny any knowledge of this -- Toby ] ------------------------------ From: charity%creighton dot edu at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:27:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Prof. Fripp, Rhet & Comp I am convinced that Mr. Fripp is a repressed instructor of Rhetoric and Composition. First of all, I would like to address his comment stating, "very little in my life is arbitrary". I'll have to disagree, Mr. Fripp. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact of literary criticism: the nature of the linguistic sign is arbitrary. Therefore, as a daily speaker of the English language (or any language for that matter) most of what you do in your life is arbitrary. Sorry ("Nature of the Linguistic Sign", Ferdinand de Saussure). Secondly, I would like to discuss Fripp's thesis: "Bootlegging Theory: A Deconstructionist Approach to Postmodernism". Very good. I had to dive into some Foucault translations for that one. I found a quote discussing the Deconstructionist/Poststructuralist thought regarding author/text which definitely applies to Fripp's theory; The name of the author turns discourse into legal property, and the notion of legal property in turn supports and is supported by related discourses concerning entitlements, liberties, duties, rights, constraints, impediments, obligations, and punishment. The name of the author saturates the entire network of legal relations, thereby empowering the attribution of discourses to the procedures that result from them (trans. in "Author", Donald E. Pease). Of course we all know that Postmodernism equals "nothing is sacred", therefore I feel as if Mr. Fripp illucidates himself completely in his thesis. I'm impressed. I have also found it noteworthy that William Blake seems to be popping up all over the place (see Fripp's posts and the inlay cards to Trey Gunn's _The Third Star_). Blake broke completely with Neoclassical conventions and as he was trained as an engraver, created his own manuscripts by hand. I think everyone should check out his _Songs of Innocence and Experience_. I would like to end by saying that this lit-head certainly appreciates all of the literary references made by the King Crimson family. Yeats explains it best, "The final test of the value of any work of art to our particular needs, is when we place it in the hierarchy of those recollections which are our standards and our beacons." (qtd in "The Sense of Place", Seamus Heaney). I'm equally attracted to your standards and beacons, Mr. Fripp, as I am your music. May your dark embryo continue to germinate. We will now return to our regularly scheduled technical music discussion. Charity H. Upchurch P.S. Does anyone else think that "People" sounds deistic? God as watchmaker->people as main spring. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Cheap Looping Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:58:40 -0800 (PST) In addition to the advice posted by someone else on #345, I'd add that you might want to look for cassettes made for answering machines. These are cassettes that are self-looping; when you get to the end of one you're actually reaching the beginning again. Also, you can get a passive mixer for under $60 at Radio Shack, which I believe sells a 4-channel mixer for about $50. Also, maybe you want to seek the advice of the folks on the Looper's Delight mailing list, which includes the illustrious company of folks who have either invented or helped invent looping devices such as Kim Flint (formerly of Oberheim), Matthias Grob (inventor of Oberheim Digital Echoplex), Jon Durant (formerly of Lexicon). A few celebs such as David Torn also hang out there. Unfortunately, I don't have the info at hand on how to join. Try a web search. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at waynesworld dot ucsd dot edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: jeffb at psinet dot com Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:07:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #345 Gang, I just spent 30 minutes reading and meticulously considering the lengthy comments that Fripp made in ET 345 on Bret Hart's Fripp Analysis. I must say that I was fascinated by the thorough comments from both sides, yet the whole time one thought kept running through my head: Is this the same Bret Hart from "Poison"? Every roooose has its thorn... jeff b ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Metrical Structure of "Breathless" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:23:18 EST From: John Saylor Hi >>>biffyshrew at aol dot com writes: [x] > Before this argument over the imaginary time signature 3/3 goes any > farther, I'd like to point out that the whole discussion is rooted in a > typographical error! Oh thank you for bringing some sense here! No more diatribes about the straight jacket of western notation! > you'll see that what Fripp > actually said was that the passage is in "33 plus 3/8"--i.e., 33 eighth > notes plus a further three eighth notes. > Each of the 11/8 measures is clearly divided into 4/4 > + 3/8, so the cycle could be notated as: 4/4 + 3/8 + 4/4 + 3/8 + 4/4 + 3/8 > + 3/8. Well, yes, but I have a minor quibble with this. I think the musical sense is better expressed if the 4/4 meters are broken up like this [in eighth notes (quavers?)]: 3 + 3 + 2 So it could be explained as 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 3 Now I'm not listening to it, so there may be variations on the pattern here [quite likely] so that the "2" might get moved around in the bigger 11 grouping. I only mention this because this part has always been a favorite of mine- mostly for the incredible slow build of tension within the one note guitar solo [I know there are more notes, but you get the idea], but also for this irregular meter. -- John Saylor MIT E40-335 617.253.0172 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:45:00 -0500 From: Tom Evans Organization: Lightbridge, Inc Subject: books by Fripp Fripp's recent contribution to ET have been entertaining and informative. I do hope that time spent contributing to ET does not prevent him from making more music. If Fripp were to put the effort into writing a book, I would like to see him produce "Speaking in Flags: My Life in the Semaphore Corps". Fripp obviously has quite a catalog hand signals and gestures to communicate a wide range of messages. I imagine this book would be full of useful and efficient ways to silently communicate with those around you. If all ETers read it, we could avoid future unpleasant interactions with Fripp, and perhaps apply the illustrated techniques to our own lives. I would find this information most helpful. tom -- *--------------------------------------------------- Tom Evans | Senior Network Engineer evans at lightbridge dot com | Lightbridge, Inc *--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Mathews, Thomas J." Subject: Need a break from you know what? Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 15:22:00 EST I needed a change from who/what/where/when/how of the listserve so for a change I visited: 1. the ET homepage: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ Did you know that Toby is selling a (his?) house? (Sorry man I couldn't afford the commute.) What is that "Sightings" section about? 2. the Adrian Belewwww: http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino/ In "Adrian's Corner" he's been writing to whomever cares to read about the in/outs of the last two months. He mentions spending time with Robert and Trey and wearing a Michael Jackson glove (eeeek). 3. Tony's page: http://papabear.com/tlev.htm Tony is also regularly updating everything that he is up to - Andy Summers? Terry Bozzio? yah 4. Trey Gunn http://192.41.14.72/crimson/trey/trey.html His Road Diary is a little dated but still cool. So stop thinking and have some fun with some other parts of KC. You deserve it. tj tjm4 at cdc dot gov dumela at nicom dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #349 ********************************