Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #346 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 346 Tuesday, 11 February 1997 Today's Topics: SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part ten) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:38:23 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: RF Questions i. If the premise of the music being available and the musician being an active conduit for said music, is assumed ,the nature of the relationship is one of , the effect or reaction of the audience to the force (the music) as it is translated by or presented through the musician. In an ideal situation the pebble thrown in the pond create the motion that manifests itself in the ripples and waves. The characteristics of the throw, the rock and the water determine what effect thier interaction has on each other and the translation and effect of the initial force. The a/e/f must be willing to, as much as is possible, trust the musician to do their part in forming the musical experience. The musician must trust the audience not to, as much as is possible,interfere with the experience in such a way that it breaks the space of the performance and causes the musician to be unable to respond appropriatley to the must being presented. The real world must strive for the ideal by focusing on the moment. The well prepared musician an audience will be open and attuned to the moment and not distracted by interference. ii. a. To be able to experience the performance as presented by the artist. b. For paid performances to pay a resonable fee that supports the artist and venue. c. To be free to experience the perfomance while observing common courtesy to the performer and the other audience members. ( I am reminded of a RF/CGT/Gauchos performance that I attended where a young woman mauled her companion in front of us and some people behind us talk through most of the soundscapes. I tried to ignore the woman as much as possible and gave a quick ( i hope not too rude) Shush! to the talkers. They irritated me but looking back I should have been just as irritated with myself for not being able to focus on the moment.) iii a. Be punctual. If not enter the performance space as discretely as possible. b. Be at the performance!!! and willing to focus on it/be open to it, or do something else. c. Observe ii c. d. When coming in contact with the performer remember they are there to perform not not to meet you. Be courteous and err on the side of discretion. iv. Expectations being never met or clouding the true experience, I beileve the a/e/f can only hope that an artist they enjoy will, as the situation presents itself, provide a performance or recording that they may experience. v. I hope that you will continue to present music that challenges my listening, encourages my commitment to practice and enriches my life experience. I hope that you will also continue to share you thoughts in writing as I find them both informative and entertaining. On a personal note I thank you for the ' Blessing of Tears" from two friends whose mothers passed away last year. The music and writting seemed to ease thier sorrow and I was glad to be able to share that with them. For one it was the only spoken word at her mothers wake. I hope that you will be touring some Soundscapes to the East Coast (USA) in the not too distant future and I second the idea of another ETer for a DGM Artist tour. Now that would be alternative. Thanks for taking time to correspond with us - Martin Bradburn PS : Adrian's a much better guitarist, he does animal noises and dances and sings too! PPS: How about a US playback. We could all pitch in to cover expenses!! <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com Westerly, RI 02891<> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) (401) 596-0592 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'Freedom and constraint are two aspects of the same necessity, <> <> which is to be one and no other' - Antoine de Saint-Exupery <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ From: "Mascarini, Rick (Corp)" Subject: RF Questions Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:50:46 -0500 To Robert's curious inquiries. I speak for myself, as audient/enthusiant/fan, not as musician/information systems contributor/human. i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan (a/e/f) and the musician? Trust - that the a/e/f will listen and the musician will deliver. ii) What are the rights of the a/e/f ? Being originally from New Jersey - None! ..... but now from NY - patience. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the a/e/f ? To be prepared, be flexible, have understanding and be patient. iv) What do you personally, as a/e/f expect of your artists? Nothing, anything else would spoil the surprise! v) What do you personally, as KC-RF a/e/f expect of Robert Fripp? See above. Regards, Rick Mascarini ------------------------------ Subject: R.F.'s and Robert Fripp's postings From: sma6 at juno dot com (Scott M Arnold) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:29:05 EST After reading the word-play between Adrian Belew and ET posters, I stopped reading ET for ever. A friend of mine caught the R.F. postings and sent them to me. I have not read the responses to his post, and noticing the date of the original post, I hope that I am not to late to get in on the conversation. I will address this letter to no one in particular, as I am not sure who will be reading it, or if the true person it is intended for truly should. As a person who pays money for music, I demand a lot. I demand that the artist I am willing to spend money to hear (in concert or on recording) maintain a significant artistic integrity. This Integrity changes in my mind often, so I don't expect anyone to care to hear from me about what in particular it is. That is all that I expect from a performer/musician/artist, though at times, determined by my fancy, this may be quite a lot to ask. So much that I will refrain from paying my money, but then again, this is my right also. What I do not expect is for him to listen to me what so ever. Though I may have many questions about his work that I would like to hear the answer to, though i cant listen to a certain solo without almost coming to tears, though I may have a criticism about a recent release or about what I imagine are his motives in marketing based on his choice of releases, though I may at times feel a great bit of interest and gratefulness for the public side of his presence. This of course is an expectation also. In fact it is the biggest expectation that I have. The one part of the "artist integrity" that I imagine that I demand that never changes, is that he should care nothing of my opinions or wants or demands. I, like others, applaud when an artist doesn't follow the main-stream, but it is not possible, just because I ridiculously think I am better than main-stream because I listen to an artist who I think doesn't follow it, to think that the artist should follow my opinion either. In fact, that would ruin it. Every release that appears to be in the slightest bit the result of ET makes me sadder. Any post in answer or concerning things written in ET makes me shudder. Finally, I will direct this toward R.F. in answer to his questions. There is nothing I can demand from you, as I have no right. I request as a stranger, and to whom listening is and should always be, as listening is and should always be for anyone listening to a stranger, your choice, that you do not listen to anything further. That if what has become of ET should continue, you would choose, to ignore us/them/me, this is what I expect from a performer---not because it is my right by paying you money, but because I find that the best musicians listen only to themselves. In contradiction of everything I have said above, "Thank you" S. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:45:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew S. Putzel" Subject: response to Mr. Fripp's response to Mr. Lincoln Greetings, Now that I've been able to catch up on all the issues of ET that have been appearing in my mailbox, I feel compelled to contribute. Mr. Fripp's reply to Mr. Lincoln regarding their confrontation during Vernon Ried's concert, has sparked the need for me to comment about it. It is clear that Mr. Fripp's privacy was invaded. As a man of some recognition, it is most likely hard for him to go to a concert. He will inevitably be recognized by someone. This is something that comes with being famous. I must point out, that Mr. Fripp made a decision to be a performer (and everyone who reads this list is glad that he is). Performers throughout history have been plagued by fans recognizing them in public places. This comes with the territory. It is only human nature for people to want to meet someone who they admire. Mr. Fripp is widely admired for his excellent guitar playing. Mr. Fripp, it is my belief that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You made a decision to choose this way of life. Fame comes with it's price. I do not think that you will be able to avoid fans bothering you in public places. This has plagued public performers for years. This is something that you will probably have to deal with. You have the right to deal with it anyway you wish. If you choose not to acknowledge your fans, it is your decision. If you choose to give each one an autograph, that is your decision, too. As a performer, I do not believe that it is your duty to acknowledge every fan you meet. As a fan, I do not expect you to acknowledge each fan that bothers you while you are busy. I also believe that, as a fan, I am not obligated to avoid approaching you in a public place. Many people would be overwhelmed by an opportunity to meet someone that they admire. Mr. Fripp, I realize that you do care what fans think about you. If you didn't, you wouldn't post here. I am grateful that you take the time to read our posts. As a famous person, you go out of your way to post to this mailing list. It makes this list, which was getting a bit dull, much more interesting (which is what inspired me to contribute). This is a great service to your fans, one which I will remember if I ever see you at a concert. Just because I am not obligated to give you some peace, doesn't mean that I wont give you some peace. Thanks for the time. Matt Putzel mputzel at ziplink dot net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:50:40 -0800 From: Alessandro Bagno Subject: Fripp's questions Organization: Dept. Organic Chemistry Dear Team, Here is my response to Fripp's questions. (a) In discussing the nature of the relationship between musician and audience, I will make a comparison with a situation I often find myself in, i.e. giving scientific lectures at conferences. Although there are many differences, there are also analogies. During a talk, the audience is expected to keep quiet, hopefully to pay attention. The speaker is expected to do a good presentation (i.e. clear and concise; I assume nothing about its quality, which is left for the audience to judge and will always be controversial). At the end of the talk, the speaker (almost) never forgets to say 'Thank you for your attention'. (b) People tend to go to a concert thinking 'I am paying for it, so they have to do their best', and musicians tend to think 'These people are lucky enough to have us play for them tonight'. I am not implying that this is the rule for KC, but it would be better if audience and performer went to the show keeping in mind 'I am privileged to have these people play (listen) for (to) me tonight. Money is not a consideration'. Then a lot of good things, like punctuality, mutual respect, etc., would naturally ensue. (c) Going back to the conference hall: after the lecture the audience is free to ask questions. Of course I do not expect Fripp or KC to answer questions, but this brings up the pricky problem of the musician-audience relationship whenever it verges on personal matters. Fripp's response to his benevolent assailants appears to be mixed, but he seems irritated by people saying 'Thank you' to him. However, if there is **one** right that the audience has, this is it: to thank the artist for his art. If fans like to say this verbally, this is something the artist has to live with. However, if mutual respect exists between audience and musician, then fans must also live with the idea that they should thank Fripp telepathically and leave him alone, because it is impossible to judge from one side whether time and place are appropriate. (d) As for me, many times I have asked myself 'If I met Fripp, what would I ask or tell him?' and I found no question that had not already been covered. So let me assure Fripp that he will not wear out his Wellington boots running from me. (e) I will conclude by making a personal recollection you are free to skip. I remember myself as a child, watching singers on TV and asking my mother 'Mom, do singers really exist?' 'Sure they do.' 'And where do they live? I have never met one.' My mother could not tell. Thank you for your attention Alessandro -- Alessandro Bagno Centro CNR Meccanismi Reazioni Organiche Dept. of Organic Chemistry, University of Padova via Marzolo, 1 35131 Padova (Italy) tel. +39 49 827-5660 fax +39 49 827-5239 e-mail alex at chor02 dot chor dot unipd dot it (preferred) alex at pdchor dot chor dot unipd dot it ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:31:58 +1030 (CST) From: stephen white Subject: Tangent to Robert Fripp's questions. Robert Fripp wrote: > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > your artists? I think the responses to Robert Fripp's questions miss the point by being too analytical. Abstract models like Product/Consumer relationships only illustrate general trends within a population. "Expectation" is a Pavlovian response to predictable stimuli. Robert Fripp regularly produces music which we like. So we come to expect that he will produce music that we will like. This does not mean that he is under any obligation to produce music that we will like. Obligations are not created in response to expectation. Obligations are created when a result is desired. If Robert Fripp has the following set of desires: 1) To devote his life to music. 2) To make a living from music. Then he is obligated to make music that people will like so they will give him money for food and housing. Fortunately, the two desires aren't entirely mutually exclusive though it comes pretty close. In other words, Robert Fripp chooses what he wants and creates his own obligations in the process. We cannot impose any obligations. We can only state how we will respond and he makes his own choices. Moving onto the behaviour of fans. My mother studied with Clemens Lesky, a world-class pianist. Herself a concert pianist, she has expressed how she would practice a particular phrase for months and it would sound OK but fairly ordinary. Clemens would say "Allow me" and play that same phrase and it would come out sounding as though it had opened a portal into another, better, world. Yet Clemens was a perfectly ordinary human being in every other way. It was the fact that this inhuman talent could reside within a normal person that provided the fascination that my mother had with Clemens. Was it the way he held his hand? Was it the way he moved his fingers? Maybe he leaned over the keyboard to emphasise certain aspects? By being in the same room with him, maybe she could absorb some of these qualities that so abundantly imbued Clemens with his magic. And indeed, she became a much better pianist by the end of the two years she studied with him, but she says she didn't come close. If I met Robert Fripp, I would feel the desire to thank him for his work as it has created great pleasure within myself. I also thank the chef if I've had a particuarly well cooked meal or the attendant at the petrol station if I've received courteous service. The chef and the attendant have a one-to-one customer relation. Robert Fripp has a one-to-many ratio with his listeners. The number of times he has received thanks has passed beyond the conveyance of appreciation into the realm of nuisance. To make my thanks stand out in his memory (to give them some small worth), I would have to behave like an idiot. Doing so would be to create even more of a nuisance in his life. So I would curb my reaction to investigate how much of a normal person he really is (like Clemens) in the process of expressing my gratitude and just leave the poor sod alone to do whatever he wants. A final comment. It is only recently that I understood the meaning of the quote "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end". I spent the last few years indulging my desires with the consequence that I became fat and unfit. I failed to understand the concept of "freedom". Freedom doesn't mean the right to choose whatever I want to do at any moment in my life. Freedom is the right to choose a way of life. I wanted to be fit and healthy. So I had to discipline myself to exercise regularly. This didn't mean that I had to be resigned to forcing myself through a regime in order to get to the "good bits" of being a total slob without guilt. To do so would be making the unpleasant aspects of exercise into a life goal. The change in my way of life that I have chosen (utilising my freedom) was achieved through discipline and I do not need the discipline to continue my chosen lifestyle because it is now my natural choice. Thus discipline was the means to the end, not the end in itself. I now wonder how many similar insights are buried within the music, yet beyond my comprehension as yet. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:34:05 -0500 (EST) From: Rjgluck at aol dot com Subject: Fripp-ET Dialog I have been fascinated by the on-going dialog between Robert Fripp and participants on this list, and I feel appreciative of Fripp's willingness and interest ing engaging. I personally feel that he has no obligation to do so, but clearly doing so is a good thing for all involved, especially in light of all of the misunderstandings that seem to have taken place over the years. I write as a composer, but also someone who is a public figure in my community in a vein separate from my musical life. I've been struck by the degree to which conversations about "fan"-artist relations and expectations are effected by the music business. I am glad that KC has been making music over the years (I have listened since early in the game). I think of myself as a "listener" rather than a fan, although I like Fripp's expression "enthusiast" because I am not a passive listener--I active care about this music and about the people making it because they've added alot to my life and because I think that its existence makes the world a better place. I consider it a privilege to live in a climate where musicians can find the support to create and for their music to reach my ears. I don't take that for granted for a moment. I think that it is unfortunate that the market governs who gets to be heard to a fair degree, what they an play, and this fact shifts what people's expectations are of the artist (ie. comments like "I expect to be able to hear certain pieces and to be able to receive certain things while at the concert.") This makes me think of concerts where the audience members automatically stand up at the end of the show, as if every show is worth a standing ovation, but with the intent of "getting their money's worth" of listening time. I find this upsetting. Despite the financial transaction, which often fills the pockets of promoters and ticket handlers more than the musicians, KC and other musicians aren't commodities. They are not objects to be consumed. I'm glad that Fripp and a small array of others have developed a sufficient listener base to play the music that they want with limited constraints, and that they can put it out into the world relatively independent of the large companies. It would make me feel good if Fripp were to act in a warm manner to me were I to meet him, but I--and I think everyone else--needs to take responsibility for this being my own feeling and need and it is not his obligation to meet it. I do believe that people should treat others respectfully, but I know that when I am "on" that I cannot be everything to everyone. I need a fair bit of space. In terms of meeting our emotional needs, Fripp is not everyone's therapist, he is a musician functioning in a strange marketplace. With this said, I hope that this dialog offers Fripp a better sense of who some of his enthusiasts are. As an improvising musician myself, I know that I rely to some degree on symbiosis with the other people around when I'm playing. Things look different when you have a closer relationship with the people who are in the room. Whether or not that makes for "better" music or not is another question. Bob Gluck Sheffield, MA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:12:45 +0100 From: Fabio Riccardi Subject: Dear Robert... Dear Robert, it is a great pleasure to be given the opportunity of talking to you, and to answer your questions. > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast > / fan and the musician? So far, this relationship has been very unidirectional, with negligible possibilities given to the audience to influence the performer. I guess that most of the stuff you and your colleagues hear about yourself and your music comes from "professional journalists", and hardly from your fans. The appearance of a discussion forum like ET can change the rules. Communication can be direct, unfiltered. If I were a musician, I'd be very excited, you have a chance of really knowing what people think about you, without filters... As a music enthousiast/fan, I'm excited as well. I believe that Music is one of the most interesting forms of expression and of communication of our times, participation can only make it better... > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? ah, this is obvious: great music! > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / > enthusiast / fan? respect... the artist is someone who gives a lot to the audience, it is great, it must be hard... > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your > artists? respect of themselves and of their audience. I hate people that just do it for the money, repeating themselves and theyr cliches, must be really depressive... I like artists that propose something new, that have the strenght and the courage to innovate, to change, to make Culture. I like communication, I appreciate very much when artists cooperate among each other, there is always somthing new and interesting coming out... The artist should also not forget its role of educator. Lots of fans are teenagers, young minds that crave to be fertilized. A positive attitude from the artist can give the right push to lots of people. Music is wonderful becouse it can directly reach the heart, for good or for bad... > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? Keep going! So far, so good! Seriously, I started listening to Fripp/KC (among many other) when I was 14 (I'm 32 now), and I always felt something (very) positive out of it. RF might seem someone very controlled and a bit coldish from outside, but in his guitar there is a heart. I'll not go into the - I like this, I don't like that - it won't make any sense, I just like the way you play guitar... Your Music, your Work, have been for me a constant source of inspiration, I just wanted to say: thank you very much! Fabio ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #346 ********************************