Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #341 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 341 Wednesday, 5 February 1997 SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part eight) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:03:24 -0500 From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Response to Fripp Fripp and Crimson have played a major part of my life since 1972. For a period of at least three years Crimson were the subject of my considerable teenage adulation. Their music (live and on album) made my hair stand on end and moved me emotionally. This I would imagine is a fairly common teenage experience. The trouble is that all these years later, I find their music still has the same effect on me. This music can put a smile on my face / can make me laugh out loud / help me relax and drift away / makes me pick up my bass and give my fingers some serious strain / it can perplex me / excite me / give me inspiration / make me feel nostalgic / look forward to the future. I am not uncritical but on the whole I enjoy immensely what they / he does and find I am rarely disappointed with concerts or recordings. Regarding my expectations of the performer, I offer these anecdotes; I remember in 1973 travelling to Birmingham to see Crimson who had missed Newcastle off what proved to be the final UK tour. My sister and I went back stage beforehand to talk to the band, Fripp included. During the first break between numbers, Chuckles Fripp (as he was then known in the business) said hello to us from the stage. We felt very special, privileged and appreciated. At that point in my life I expected to go behind stage and meet people. (It was something we did with every band we saw in those days.) Not because I had paid my money but that I was their greatest fan and of course they would want to congratulate me on the fact. Years later and no longer a teenager in 1995, I see a KC show in London and theres no expectation on my part to meet the band. Id love to do it but it now feels a bit embarrassing. A bit adolescent. After all what would I say to them ? Hi Im a great fan of your music or variations on that particular theme. I rationalise it by saying to myself that its enough that their music makes a major impact on my life and Im seeing them perform. But I cannot deny that there's a part of me that would love to meet the blokes in the band and bombard them with trivial (to them but to me, important) questions. Last year, I took a day off work and travel to Manchester to see Fripp perform Soundscapes at the Virgin Megastore. The sense of excitement was if anything even more acute than in 1995 or 1996, given that I find myself standing three inches away from a man whose playing has been part of my life for over twenty five years. I stand next to Fripp prior to his playing and feel compelled to say something to him. This I do and he simply shakes his head and looks away. I realise hes not being rude but simply telling me that this is not a good time to talk to him. After his performance, he signs autographs and talks to the small number of fans on anything we ask him at some length. I ask him the same question I asked earlier and this time he answers. What did I expect from these three events? To witness some challenging music being created in front of me, music which would engage both head and the heart (and in Birmingham and London, most definitely the hips). Meeting the performers on two occasions added considerable value to the whole experience but did not detract from my enjoyment when this didnt happen. Finally, I have nothing in the way of great theory to offer Fripp about the relationship between performer and audience other than to express my simple appreciation of his and Crimson's continuing musical adventures. Their music can move me in ways I cannot describe. Overall, I feel a tremendous gratitude towards Crimson and Fripp because of the enjoyment they have given me over so many years. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 97 18:59:55 EST From: Keith Smillie <100650 dot 236 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: RF Questions We're not worthy! We're not worthy! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:10:37 -0600 (CST) From: Dixie Gene Ross Subject: Re: Fripp questions Hey Team, I would like to address the Fripp questions. > 1. Harvey Keitel and Kevin Spacey should play Fripp in "King Crimson: The > Movie", in alternating scenes. Who cares if anyone's confused? Yes, I can see this. I've seen Harvey Keitel in "The Piano" and I've seen Kevin Spacey in "Seven" and "The Usual Suspects". In these movies both actors displayed the ability to capture the essence of the character that I know to be Robert Fripp. Excellent casting. > 2. Stop arguing about Fripp's attitude towards you, etc., and acknowledge > he's the greatest guitarist in the world. I acknowledge that Fripp is the greatest guitarist in the world. But more important to me than this is the fact that Fripp makes the music that I enjoy more than any other music. Sure there are a few gems that have made it to my ears that have really moved me, but Fripp's music has driven deep into that spot which is number one. Is Fripp God? No, but Fripp's music allows me to be with God in a better way. > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast > / fan and the musician? The audience / enthusiast / fan has a demand for the music but not a demand of what that music should be. The musician, if he wishes, may fulfill this demand with the music he feels appropriate. The success of this relationship depends on both the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician. If the musician takes the audience / enthusiast / fan beyond his demands this can create more of a demand for the music. If the musician's aim is to give the fan just what he demands, the demand is quenched. (game over) > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The audience / enthusiast / fan has the right to enjoy the music to the fullest. If the music ignites his spirit, he has the right to allow this to happen. He has the right to be subjective, to make up his own mind as to the quality of his experience with the music. He and he alone can do this for himself. If the music is recorded music the fan can do with this music as he sees fit. If he wishes to do some time wounding by playing Nuages (That Which Passes, Passes Like Clouds) from Three of a Perfect Pair simultaneously with This Night Wounds Time from THRaKaTTaK, he has the right. ( I've done this from different points of entry. Very interesting.) He has the right to listen through the music, to use the music for what ever purpose he desires. He has the right to spend his money. To invest in the musicians of this music. But, this does not give him the right to any part of the musicians, their time or their attention. > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / > enthusiast / fan? At a live music event the audience / enthusiast / fan has the responsibilities of being there body, soul, mind and spirit to take part in the event as a member of the audience. ( A crowd that is listening becomes an audience.) There is an obligation to the other members of the audience to not distract them from the music. To allow them to enjoy the music. If I am with my wife Dixie, I may whisper in her ear something I would want share at the moment. But I shouldn't try to bring attention to myself. This can only distract from the event. If I am at a performance of the California Guitar Trio and I notice a member of the audience, Robert Fripp, listening to this great band. I should allow him to take in the show, to hear the room, to have that one on one experience that a member of an audience can have during a performance of a band of this caliber. If I make eye contact with him, a nod or a thumbs up will suffice. Trying to talk to him can only keep him from listening to this great band. There is also an obligation to the performers. This is to allow them to perform to the best of their abilities. To do this one must simply stay out of the way. Allow him to prepare for the performance. By engaging a musician in some small talk or turning his mind to a time or place apart from the forth coming performance can do little to help him tune in 100% and give it his all. This could short change others at the show from getting the whole ball of wax. Is it worth it? > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your > artists? At a live event I, as an audient / enthusiast / fan, expect an artist to take the stage on time or as close as possible. To be on stage focused, undistracted and willing to give it his best. > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? I am passive-aggressive concerning what I personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp. Passive - I expect nothing. Aggressive - I expect Robert Fripp to catch a wave! Right there live on stage . As the music leans over and takes him up into its confidence like a huge wave. I expect him to catch that wave like a soul surfer. Using his guitar like a surfboard to grace that wave. Quickly adapting to the demands of that wave, knowing what to do and doing it in one single motion. Like an organic live wire. Taking me to that place where not a soul knows what will happen next not even Fripp. When this happens I learn about the music from Fripp and I learn about Fripp from the music. In order for this to happen I must allow Fripp to take that optimum path of his choosing. This will allow him to do what is practical to take on the challenge of bringing King Crimson, an old constant companion of mine, to life in this world. Not an easy mission. So, I expect nothing. I'll leave it to Fripp. Exercising, my rights as a Robert Fripp / King Crimson enthusiast I have been entertained and educated. I have discovered useful tools that I have successfully applied to the mechanics of living my life in this world. For this I am most grateful. I thank you Robert Fripp, I thank you King Crimson, and you too team, I thank you. Fearless and Highly THRaKed in Austin, Texas a team player, Dick Ross ------------------------------ From: David Maclennan Subject: The Great Fripp Debate.... Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:37:59 +1200 I've held off sending in a response to Robert's questions until now because of (a) a shortage of time, (b) a desire to see how the tone of the debate went before chiming in with my $0.02's worth (there have been some excellent replies!), and (c) a desire to give a well considered response. So here goes.... 1) What is the relationship between the audience/enthusiast/fan and the musician? In an ideal world it should be one of mutual respect. But the world of rock music has always been a far from ideal one in many repsects. The a/e/f should respect the right of the musician to play the music that is within him/her at that particular point in time. If you can dig it, then fine. But if not... well then, go and listen to something you DO want to hear. But don't blame the musician for following the muse. That is the nature of all art - or should be. In terms of this list, remember it's King Crimson we're talking about, a group that in all its incarnations has always been about taking chances. If you want safe predictability, go listen to Oasis or the Spice Girls. "I've got every one of your records, man, doesn't that mean that I own you?" (Peter Hammill, "Energy Vampires") No, it doesn't. Everyone, Robert Fripp included, has the right to their personal space. Just because you are in the public eye doesn't mean you are public property. Imagine if you were Robert Fripp, standing at the soundboard listening to one of your favourite acts. Would YOU want a stream of people coming up to you and interruputing your enjoyment by wanting autographs, enlightenment, or handshakes? Go on, ask yourself the question.... So it's back to the mutual respect thing. Respect the right of the musician to play what he/she wants, and ask no more of them than that. And the musician? Respect and understand the fact that in real life, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink - in other words, don't expect everyone, even a KC audience, to always grasp where you're coming from. 2) What are the rights of the audience/enthusiast/fan? This one's easier. In a live setting - which as far as KC is concerned, we down here in the benighted Antipodes have no experience of :-( - to expect the very best performance, given the variables of time, place and mental/physical condition of the musicians. Always remember, musicians are human beings, not machines. In the medium of recorded music, the a/e/f should have the right to expect a quality product, especially from artists of the calibre of Fripp/KC. But if you don't like, say, THRaKaTTaK, then don't buy it. No one is forcing you to. Don't post to ET saying "this album sucks" just because YOU don't like it. If it's soft options you want, then maybe the music of Robert Fripp and KC is not for you. 3) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience/enthusiast/fan? To listen with an open mind, primarily. And if you like it, cheer enthusiastically. But if you don't, it's not an excuse to hurl abuse, fruit, CDs or whatever at the stage. Also respect the musicians as people - if they don't want to mingle with you backstage afterwards, that is their right, and you should respect it. You pay your money to hear an hour and a half of good music, not to shake hands with the artists afterwards. That may be seen as a bonus, and bonuses are not yours to expect as of right. A true Crimhead should respect the right of the entity that is King Crimson to play what it likes how it likes. Do we really want our favourite group to become a greatest hits package? Of course we don't. Throughout their career KC have attempted, mostly successfully, but sometimes not, to push the outside of the enevlope of this contrary beast called rock music. 4) What do you personally, as an audient/enthusiast/fan expect of your artists? To be treated with respect in the sense of giving it your best shot, be it in the studio or on stage (if we're talking about music here, but similar things would apply to other arts). But if an artist fails to deliver, loses the muse, or whatever... well, there are plenty of others out there. But "quality" in art is such a subjective thing, isn't it? 5) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient/enthusiast/fan expect of Robert Fripp? See question 4, I guess. In a sense, though, I expect nothing, other than that 27 years of listening to KC-RF music has led me to be pretty sure he/they will deliver something that interests, stimulates, and challenges me. I can't say I wholeheartedly like every thing KC and RF have done over the years, but I certainly dig a very high proportion of it. Like many of you on this list, I admit I would like to meet Robert and thank him personally for the enjoyment his music has given me over the past three decades. But should KC ever make it to NZ before I shuffle off this mortal coil (and thus far there's been no concrete indication they ever will), I certainly won't be hanging around the stage door. For me, the music alone would have been enough. David Maclennan Wellington, New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:21:20 -0500 From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Response to Mr. Fripp's Letters (LONG) What the recent exchange between Mr. Fripp & Mr. Lincoln demonstrates are two sides of celebritydom. Whatwe have here is the following: 1) a celebrity, who was deeply enjoying a musical performance and trying to have some peace. 2) a fan, who, not realizing what the celebrity was doing, approached him to tell him something. Whether or not the greeting was nice or mean or what have you is besides the point, because the celebrity ran away. Celebrities, as a whole, seem to be a contradiction. On the one hand, celebrities do something that makes them popular, well-known, and recognizable on the street to others. Then, when they become recognizable, they complain that they can't "be left alone." The reply by many people is to quit being a celebrity. But why do people become celebrities? Musicians, actors, writers, sports figures, politicians and others become well-known either because: 1) they do / perform something well and are well-liked 2) they do / perform something poorly and are not liked at all 3) they have done something in their personal lives that makes them not liked Let us look at the first of these, because this is on what the controversy is centered. Sports figures and actors are approached more often than musicians, many times by children, and they are asked for autographs. We see them sign autographs very readily whenever someone comes to them. Why? Because for a fan it is a chance to extend their personal gratitude on the effect they have had in their life. Sometimes it can be a very strong effect: people's children are named after them, a person moves into a craft similar to the person that inspired them. Some are more willing to give up their privacy than others. Some celebrities will, for example, sign an autograph when they are dining at a restaurant. But what would happen if a fan came up to, say, Kevin Spacey, while he was eating a very good swordfish? He is thoroughly enjoying himself, and is trying to have a little privacy, when a fan comes up to him and asks for an autograph. If Mr. Spacey refuses to sign an autograph right then and there, is he in the wrong? Mr. Fripp says that if it's an inappropriate time, no. Mr. Lincoln feels otherwise. Celebrities, when sometimes overwhelmed, or need to get out of a situation, run away. They don't do it because they are offended by someone else. They do it because it is not the right time for them to deal with that particular fan, and would rather talk to him or her when it might be a little more appropriate. Many times we "inconvenience" (I put this in quotation marks because to some it is, in their minds, an inconvenience. To others, it is not.) celebrities by walking up to them and trying to meet them. A while back, I made a conscious decision that, if I am ever in a situation where a celebrity is just trying to act like an ordinary person, and is occupied in doing something else, I would not try to talk to them. If it was a situation where the celebrity was there specifically to talk to people, well, that's a different story. Mr. Lincoln feels that this is similar to people talking to other people. It is not. If I talk to a person I hardly know in a social setting, it is because I am trying to make simple conversation and pass some time. When talking to celebrities, however, celebrities always feel that this fan is going to want something sooner or later. It may be something as simple as a "thank you" when the fan gushes. It may be an autograph. It may be a small bottle of sweat, or hair. The celebrity does not know, so he or she will try not to get into a situation where the worst possible thing can happen. If it does occur, the celebrity can either: a) give up and let the moment occur b) try to avoid the situation Mr. Fripp opted for choice "b." What Mr. Lincoln was looking for is an apology for this choice. It could have been simple as "I'm sorry that you feel that I slighted you, but it was not my intention. Here is why I did what I did..." To an extent, Mr. Fripp tried to explain this to Mr. Lincoln. Mr. Lincoln, in fact, was doing the same thing when he apologized for disturbing Mr. Fripp. It could have been simple as "I'm sorry that you feel that I slighted you, but it was not my intention. Here is why I did what I did..." To an extent, Mr. Lincoln tried to explain this to Mr. Fripp. Calling Mr. Fripp impersonal is wrong. In the proper setting, I'm sure Mr. Fripp is a warm, engaging person. But the bottom line is that in Mr. Fripp's eyes, before and right after a show, during a moment where he is not prepared to deal with the situation, is wrong. I tend to agree. What Mr. Fripp is trying to do is control the situation in which he and a person can deal with the "celebrity situation." As for "grpuping" people as fans, let's face it, we are all fans. And although it is difficult to know what we would do in a situation when we mneet a celebrity, the celebrity has to assume the worst. When I first read Mr. Fripp's post on "what are the rights / obligations of a fan..." I did not realize what he was getting at. Now that I do understand, I can say (as I did when I reeplied to the letter the first time) that the rights of a fan are (because of the freedom of speech) to comment / critique a person's work in a forum such as this. A fan is obligated to respect the artist's wishes, no matter how outlandish they may seem. If this has to do with meeting the celebrity, then so be it. As long as the obligation does not interfere with the person's right to comment, I have no problem. Wioth respecting the person's wishes. As for Mr. Dickson's post, I feel that Mr. Fripp is wrong in his assumptions. To most fans / audience, a backstage pass means that the band (the WHOLE band) wishes to meet / converse with you. This is the opportunity where the celebrity can control the situation of meeting a fan. Getting a backstage pass from the band (the WHOLE band) implies that the band (the WHOLE band) agreed to meet with the person. This is what Mr. Dickson is getting at. By agreeing to give this person a backstage pass, it implies that you wish to meet the person or people. If this is otherwise, then you give specific instructions (i.e. "Don't talk to Robert") or you leave. I have gotten a backstage pass only once in my life: to meet Adrian Belew. I met the whole band, and had a good time. If I was told "don't talk to so and so," I probably would have heeded the instructions because I wouldn't want to be removed from the premises. Ms. Minder followed the instructions, and had a good time. I don't find it hypocritical, but I think that Mr. Fripp was missing the point of what Mr. Dickson was getting at. --Jeremy ------------------------------ From: "Daniel Kirkdorffer" Organization: SRDS Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:36:32 CST Subject: Response to RF's Questions I've been reading other ETers responses to Robert's questions and have found myself either in agreement with what I've read, befuddled by what I've read, or just plain unable to understand what I've read. Indeed these questions have provoked an academic epidemic. I do want to address a few issues I think need some attention, though, that perhaps others have skimmed over. Here goes: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? I see two main relationships. The first is an artistic one. The musician creates, or formulates music through his/her creative juices. The audience is a receptacle of this outflow. The audience's response can be any of a multitude of emotions, pro or con. One aim of the musician may be to communicate something to the audience, that through a skill or learning the audience may not be to understand without the aid of the musician. The second relationship is a commercial one. Typically, in today's modern economic machine, neither the musician or the audience, has full control of it. However, because the first relationship is more often than not observed in the presence, or through the auspices of a commercial endeavor, we have the musician providing a product that the audience has paid for the right to consume. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? In a commercial relationship the paying audience has the right to consumer satisfaction. This does not give the audience the right to misbehavior or rudeness. This does give the audience the right to the desire that service paid for are services rendered. The audience has no say in what services are to be offered (a new recording, a concert performance, ...), but is free to choose to be a consumer or participant in the receiving of such services - or choose not to be. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? A little over a year ago I sent you (Robert) the first set of gig reviews by ETers, to which you responded with a postcard of thanks, and a thought about people's expectations. Since I am in complete control of who "my" artists actually are, I am also in complete control of whether I choose that an artist continues to be one of "my" artists, i.e. one that I follow, listen to, read, support a web site for, or that I am generally interested in in some way. I do not "expect" anything from these people, but I do have personal criteria of quality, beauty or insight that I judge them by. These are my opinions, these are my benchmarks. As for yourself, I probably spend too much time with concerns of your life, that I should be spending on my own (yes, I confess!). I try to counter this by considering you as I should - just another human being, capable (I hope) of most of the same emotions, foibles, mistakes, etc..., as most of us. Yet it is clear that you are a person who tries to be in control of most of the situations you encounter. To many of us with less discipline that can be unsettling. I personally would wish to meet you in a situation where I felt I was in control of the event, as an equal, with an equal amount to offer in the exchange or views, conversation, or simply the knowledge imparted. I believe many of us feel unable to achieve such a level setting in your presence, although that is more a failing on our part than I see on yours. However, on an equal footing, it is not wrong to expect that your fellow man be considerate and courteous, mannered and polite. I trust you hope to be all those things as much of the time as possible. Just one last thought. In response to Matt's situation, and your desire to take in an artist you yourself admired (Vernon Reed), at that moment you were on an equal setting. Had you not been within the audience then Matt's "intrusion" would have been more off base perhaps. You did have the right to be bothered by the intrusion, though. I imagine if I came up to Matt and asked him for an autograph at that moment, dashing his chances to approach you, he would have been pretty peeved as well. So I see both Matt and yourself having similar hopes and concerns. It comes down how each of us views such things and demonstrates consideration, courtesy, manners, etc... I myself once approached you before a Crafty show in Chicago. I was not seeking you out, you just happened to be sitting with another person, and I passed you on the way to my seat. Observing my interest to greet you, you provided me with reason to do otherwise: "I'm not here." My mistake was not recognizing I could be intruding. Your response was intended that I not be allowed to succeed then and there. The time and place was obviously not right. Since then I have been able to do so at more appropriate times. Your involvement in this forum is much appreciated, and always interesting. Respectfully, Dan ET Web --- Daniel A. Kirkdorffer Email: DanKirkd at aol dot com The Gallimaufry: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ Elephant Talk: http://members.aol.com/etmirror/ Elephant Talk: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ little a: http://members.aol.com/sayaaahh/ ------------------------------ From: "W. M. Heinrichs" Subject: Re: from Robert Fripp Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:26:25 -0500 (EST) Robert, In answer to some of your implicit and/or implied questions: > > Date: 21 Jan 97 07:41:02 EST > Subject: from Robert Fripp > > Thursday 16th. January, 1997. > > > > Whenever we form judgements, or draw opinions, from events it seems > reasonable, even necessary, that we take into account the circumstances > surrounding any particular occurrence or event: "Consider always time, > place and person". This gives us both the context and the specifics. > > > My own strategies of behaviour are based on principles of conduct which > are generally applicable in my life, modified by ongoing experience, and > adapted / changed / abandoned in any particular moment in response to > particular circumstance: "Act always in accordance with time, place and > person". Little in my life is arbitrary, however unexpected or irrational > it might appear to those not privy to my inner workings; that is, to anyone > and everyone other than myself. And rarely now do I stop and explain, as > once I tried to do. > > Readers of ET who have been generous enough with their time to take an > interest in what is referred to as "Fripp's 'tude" may have noticed that my > responses, sometimes seemingly friendly, sometimes seemingly rude, differ > in different places, at different times, to different people, under > different conditions and circumstances. (This itself was also recently the > subject of comment). > However, I would rather not discuss in detail my own expectations and > assumptions, rights and obligations as I see them, until there has been > some interest shown in the topic by members of the ET team. Otherwise, > fine. > > Sincerely, > > Robert Fripp. > > I believe your perception of appropriate time and place differ from those you come in contact with. At a KC concert, the customers are there to be entertained by you. By mingling with these customers, it is understandable that you attract attention. The difference is in the assumptions of the time and place. You assume that being left alone to listen to an artist playing onstage is appropriate behavior. The customers assume that rock & roll stars are happy to receive attention from adoring fans. Regardless of this last assumption's validity, it is commonly portrayed in television and is thereby assumed by viewers. Personally, I feel it is disrespectful to interupt someone when they are preoccupied (as in watching a performance). However, as an audience member I use the break between songs to communicate with those around me. Many others do as well. How are we to know that a KC concert is not the appropriate place to communicate with you nor is the break between songs the appropriate time? Especially when we are conditioned to think otherwise. Sincerely, Bill Heinrichs "It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile." -Sting ------------------------------ From: "Mathews, Thomas J." Subject: Busting ET wide open / Silence Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 13:12:00 EST EEeeeyah this is madness! I'm sorry Robert but I must disqualify myself from answering your difficult questions. Reading all the other answers in total has been painful. I now believe that life itself must be seriously recon- sidered. Why do I listen to music? Please don't cut us off from the juice you make. I'm also sorry to have approached you in Mesa, Arizona back when I was a much younger lad (1984?). I know better now. On November 11, 1995 in Atlanta, Georgia USA KC and it's audience that night did achieve perfect silence for a brief moment. I nearly didn't believe my own memory until this was reported by Trey in his road notes. So it can be done. That location was prone to noise with two bars, folding chairs on the main floor and a lively Atlanta crowd. They didn't find this silence the following night at the same location. So somehow the audience chemistry and band timing hit it just right. After reporting this initially in my gig review I never heard if this was accomplished again. I'm not smart enough to aim, tj tjm4 at cdc dot gov dumela at nicom dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:18:11 -0500 From: DAN at epl dot lib dot nj dot us Subject: Fripp or Rip Please forgive me for playing Thomas with the doubting nature but, didn't Fripp always refer to himself in the third person? Notice that not once, in any of the RF posts did he refer to himself in the third person. HHMMMMM..... Actually, I am surprised that no one else thought about this enough to post. BTW if it really was "that Fripp", then "please Master, forgive me. For I have seen & now I believe"! Dan Conrad Dan at EPL dot LIB dot NJ dot US ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: "I Only Paint What I See..." Subject: A further late answer for RF... Hey Bob, Different day, different response... I previously 'answered' your questions with a monologue about "Art as Commodity". Now, I'd like to recant, and approach your questions from another perspective. On a very personal level, I always have many expectations when King Crimson is involved. I expect my musical tastes to be challenged and reinforced at the same time. I expect novelty. I expect familiarity. (Imagine my dismay if KC were to release an album of cover tunes... I would be dumbfounded. A veritable deer in the headlights.) I expect harmonic and rythmic complexity. I expect to be amazed. As another ET writer pointed out, these are hopes as well as expectations. One of the few dissappointments I've had was my expectation that the "double trio" would explore more of the territory ventured into by American composer Charles Ives: The simultaneous performance of multiple, independent compositions. This is hinted at perhaps, in THRAK, but only timidly, at most. Could this perhaps have been the result of KC's attempt to meet the perceived demands of the Audience? (I'm hoping it was just lack of interest. After all, it HAS been done.) However, my expectations concerning the individuals behind the music are almost nonexistant. I expect you all to enjoy creating the music that I enjoy experiencing. I expect Adrian to be flippant, provocative, and an excellent example of one who retains his youthful exuberance. I expect Tony to put up with just about anything whilst performing on multiple instruments, providing backing vocals, and juggling flaming knives - all the while documenting the events photographically. I expect Bill to grin occasionally, and to do things to my heartbeat that scare me. I expect Trey to exude a mystical quality, as though he weren't actually present on stage, but only an astral projection. I expect Pat to do his damnedest to try to surprise Bill. And I expect you, Frippster, to surprise me. This is all based of course on the limited perception I have of you. Obviously, due to the Audience/Performer(Artist) relationship, I can only access your personas. The human beings behind them are obscured. I don't have a problem with this. I feel very close to much of your music. Some of it expresses wordless things within me. There _is_ an undeniable desire to get closer to the source. I wish to become more than just an Audient. I wish to participate in the generation of the Work, to add my individuality to the mixture. To _interact_ with the wonderous sand castles you build and to be able to claim some of the credit for their existence. These are the kinds of drives that cause fans to approach you. We wish to share more of what we love. It was such a desire that caused me to add my request for Starless to the end of my last message. Here is where Hope outpaces Expectation. I would suggest that such behaviours on the part of fans be seen as expressions of encouragement and validation. Your music is difficult, yet it moves us. Not too shabby for pop music! I believe that your goal in asking these questions was not only to get our opinions, but also to cause us to consider your position. I appreciate your efforts in trying to help us understand more of what is behind the music. In the process of roasting (to a blackened cinder,) an embittered fan, who inexplicably expected an apology from you for running away from him, you posed the question of what did he wish to thank you for. I can't answer for him, but for myself, I thank you for expressing musically certain very personal things in a way which not only allows me to examine my own inner feelings, but helps to formalize them and share them with others. Your music, in some ways creates a communal environment which nurtures these indescribable, unspeakable, ephemeral things, and helps make them real. Oh yeah, some of it's good to dance to, and it really pisses off the neighbors, too! Same as before, only more so... _Dave_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 01:06:00 UT From: "Pete Gilbert" Subject: Robert Fripp's Questions Well, I waited for a while before replying.... (hope I'm not too late). > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast > / fan and the musician? At its simplest level: producer and consumer. > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? rights....that's tricky. I'm not sure that there are any "rights" involved. > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? My responsibility is to pay attention. (realize that the audience is *not* part of the entertainment). > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your > artists? I expect professionalism wrt live performances (i.e., promptness, preparedness, etc.). Beyond that, I expect to be entertained. > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? This is a tough one....I guess that I don't "expect" anything. I will be very pleased if your work points in some interesting directions that I might explore musically. Thanks for taking the time, Pete Gilbert ------------------------------ From: max dot bracco at iol dot it Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 10:50:53 Subject: RF Questions Dear Robert, knowing that we don't "talk to the wind" or just chit-chat in our pants but really comunicate with you (and the other fellows in KC) is a huge step forward the real interactive aim of the Net. I hope you write more to us in the future, but now is our turn to answer: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? VIRTUAL SEX (not with musicians but with the music) : the closest example to mind thrill as stated in Katherine Bigelow's "Strange Days". I.e. living directly intense emotions mutuated by a bodyless essence, which is Music. In best cases, something comparable to mind orgasm ; in worst cases, some frigid tickle. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Getting the best thrill from music : in a relationship that may be close or distant, rude or polite, free or venal, anyway always true and sincere= =2E iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Show maximum respect to musicians : because a truly committed and enthusiast player is always working hard, even when his music is not at top level or doesn't meet our present tastes. In KC case, the fan should understand that the huge effort has always been trying to be both innovative and coherent after 28 years. This mission is well worth our enthusiasm and support, shown attending concerts , buying records. and reallly trying to understand their music deeply. Of course constructive criticism can give useful stamina to the artists. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? Always being creative and adventurous ; exploration against repetition. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Never stop experimenting : don't sit on top results, but try climbing over them. His soundscapes series has reached incredible levels of complexity and imagination ("That which passes") ; and after using the multi-timbral advantages of guitar-synth ,now I suggest that he applies such broad harmonic universe to the basic sound of distortion electric guitar. The zenith molding the basics. KC should give us more puzzling surprises like THRAKATTAK, and more electric razor-edge like VROOM . I'd also like to see a non-stringed guest (the ideal might be Mel Collins sax) on next KC album. That would add new unpredictable surprises to the music. >>>4. Very little in my life is arbitrary. >>>In all the comments on "Fripp's 'tude" I don't recall anyone commenting >> that my onstage and offstage behaviour might simply be practical, and in >> some way serving my aim... >> the question is probably "What is Fripp's aim?" I am really surprised that so many people didn't understand it: Fripp's presumed distance onstage is pure CONCENTRATION on music. I don't care if he may look like a Sphinx or a stonecold statue, as long as his playing touches my heart. I prefer his fingers and his imagination to be cutting as knives rather than seeing him shaking his hips. Your THRaKfully MAX FROM ITALY ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #341 ********************************