Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #339 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 339 Monday, 3 February 1997 Today's Topics: 3/3 and Other Impossibilities Bruford's 1991 yes Gig Re: Elephant Talk Digest #337 Backpedaling... The Jethro-Crimson Connection re: CDs for trade 20 prog rock disks 3 books (a number hard to find) for sale or Role of Audience---A Belew Experience ...Not Pat but Paul Re: Crimson tribute & re:KC/Floyd drumming ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:16:01 -0500 From: "Dr. Fritz Rotwang" Organization: Cathartic Records Subject: 3/3 and Other Impossibilities I realize that this is a bit of a digression, but a comment in ET 336 struck me as curious. Marc Roemer wrote: > There's no such thing as 3/3 time, > because there's no such thing as a one-third note. Because the symbols to notate 3/3 time don't exist in standard Western musical notation, does it mean that this time signature does not exist? A measure of music can be divided into thirds and expressed in thirds of a beat if a composer wants to write it that way. Sure, he/she would have to invent a character to be the one-third note, but what's wrong with that? Written music came into being to allow composers to write music on paper. I'm sure this seems obvious, but I want to reinforce the point that music comes first, then a composer needs a method for writing it down. Therefore, what is possible in music determines what notation is needed in order to communicate a musical idea on paper. Marc's comment suggests a subtle, perhaps unconscious predjudice that the possiblities with standard written music dermine what a composer can compose instead of the other way around. Commonly accepted musical notation is quite adequate for writing a great variety of music. However, many composers have run into situations where it just doesn't cut it. Some examples pop into mind: Harry Partch discarded standard notation completely and devised his own unique scoring methods (see the album Delusion Of The Fury for examples of this); John Zorn's The Book Of Heads, a work for guitar using a massive arsenal of unorthodox techniques such as wet finger whoops and talking dolls, could never have been written in standard notation; some of John Cage's written pieces used time signatures, if you could call them that, that were based on the passing of clock time and not beats per measure; notation for Diamanda Galas' bizarre voice work as shown in her new book "The Shit Of God" bears no resemblance whatsoever to standard notation. All of these pioneering composers and many more I could name have given us a wealth of totally original music, none of which would be conceivable with standard notation. Like the mythical 3/3 time signature, does their music not exist? Sincerely, Dr. Fritz Rotwang catheter at eznet dot net http://home.eznet.net/~catheter/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:57:50 -0500 From: Tomas Howie Subject: Bruford's 1991 yes Gig Mr-Neurotica wrote: >I must say that i agree with most of what Greg was pointing out in >his post. But i'm sure he did not see the 1991 Yes tour (the one with all >the Yes band members, including Bruford and White). I've seen Bruford many >times and i was *never* disapointed with any of the performance i've seen >from him except maybe for this one. He played the leading drum part in >maybe 2 or 3 songs, but for the rest of the show he just sat there behind >the drums looking over the cymbals to see what White was doing and where >the puches were in the songs (specially the new ones). Most of the time he >diden't even touch the bass drum pedal, he really looked like he was >"trying" to follow the band. I must say i went to this show to see him and >i tought i would see him play like he did in the ABWH tour but he >didn't. Still it was Bruford, a musician wich i admire but his performance >that time was a bit disapointing...like i tought i would see a man running >at 150 miles/hour and he was only running 100 miles/hour wich is still >pretty good if i might say so :))) I saw this show twice: once in Montreal, once in Lake Placid, NY. The Montreal show contained an excellent drum solo with Bruford and White. It was well worth the price of admission, and was definately as good as anything I've seen Bill do previously or since. He looked like he was enjoying himself! The Lake Placid show didn't have the drum solo (or ANY solos, for that matter), but did have a rare performance of Close To the Edge. Just for fact's sake, the 1991 tour did not have EVERY one who was in Yes: missing were Patrick Moraz (a great shame, really, but THREE keyboardists on stage at once?), Trevorn Horn and Geoff Downes from the DRAMA album, and Peter Banks, yes' original guitarist. *************************************************************************** * Tomas * "Language is the light * * West Chazy, NY USA * of the mind." * * tomas at slic dot com * - John Stuart Mill * *************************************************************************** * Howie Homestead: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2340/ * * Resource Page: http://members.tripod.com/~THowie/ * * Tomas Howie Drum Page: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9870/ * * Jon Anderson Page: http://www.il.ft.hse.nl/~lodewks/jon.htm * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 12:19:42 -0500 From: Ears Hart Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #337 as a 'tag' to the reply sent to mr. fripp's question, i would like to add positive feedback regarding my 'relationship' with the music over the years. the relationship has been both fruitful and informative. in the 70's, i was driving in Syracuse, NY listening to the S.U. radio station and heard Brian Eno's "Baby's On Fire" for the first time. mr. fripp's 'cubist' soloing transfixed me and i promptly sought-out the LP to investigate that guitarist's playing more closely. soon, i realized that friends possessed "Islands", "Lizard", and other early KC LP's, which i borrowed and studied. much in the same way that other difficult musics peaked my interest in those days (it was easier to attach to intellectual statement, rather than human emotion, when i was young) and led to "completist" purchasing. i've listened to most all readily-available KC/RF over the years, usually through product-purchase, rather than taping. i've heard many side projects, and strongly advocated for the "Exposure" LP when it came out (quite disliked by many in "my" circle then). the RF/Eno collaborations were a place of comfort and relaxation for me then, as now. i feel that mr. fripp's "audio verite" production (not at all unlike Richard Gotterer's "instant" productions) of the 1st 3-sister Roches LP is one of the finest 'folk' productions ever waxed... "Hammond Song" being one of the prettiest compositions they've ever captured, thanks largely to RF's guitar-contribution. "Let The Power Fall" and "The League of Gentlemen" were both delightful segues toward the reassembly of a new King Crimson. i've always been delighted and amused by mr. fripp's excursions into printed media. he has always made an effort to 'speak' to his listenership with intelligence. additionally, i admire the smart stance mr. fripp has maintained from musical powerbrokers during the last decade regarding 'ownership'. while my response to mr. fripp's questions may have seemed harshly polemic, it was not intended to be and in no way reflects negatively upon the pleasure i have derived from listening to beautiful compositions such as "The Sheltering Sky". thus, thank you for the enjoyable music. please accept this expression of gratitude for having the courage to do what you've done. i appreciate, also, your receptivity to your listenership. i stand behind my words of several weeks ago, but wanted to add these comments to leaven those with the 'pluses'. - Bret Hart/HipWorks Productions. i had the pleasure, while waiting in-line outside a small club in Albany, NY during the "Discipline"-tour, of observing/hearing a sound-check prior to the show. splendid. study of mr. fripp's guitar-work/arrangements taught me not to quickly judge, as 'ugly', music with density and depth. tritones, for example, i now perceive as a simultaneous blend of emotion, rather than an angular "shove-off", as those not fond of KC had called it. mr. fripp/KC made polyrhythm comprehensible to me during that stage in my development, and i have since found myself equating certain time-signatures to certain emotions/feelings. i detect a clear (though, probably, unintended) musical lineage connecting the accidental polyrhythm of Petey Wheatstraw-the subtly polyrhythmic arrangements of Willie Dixon-the important work of Dave Brubeck-and KC's strongest output. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 17:15:34 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: Backpedaling... Hello Robert and ETers, I just wanted to recant one point in my "expectations", that being the "quality" issue regarding released recordings. It should have read "I expect the best -possible- sound quality, given the circumstances of the recording." I'm owner/operator of a small studio, and I've also been recording my own musical efforts over the years, in various formats, mostly cassette, as it was all I could afford. The recent drop in price/increase in quality of recording gear has changed all this, including my "expectations" of what constitutes good sound. I love "Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx", despite it's obvious limitations re: audio quality. Frankly, I find it amazing that it sounds as good as it does, considering the source. I love "B'Boom". I've recorded just this way (sound board to DAT) and have yet to get the quality found there. No complaints about the sound guys I've worked with to do this. Our budget has been (I'm sure) considerably less than KC's. Hey, they're mixing for the room. I get what I get, compromises appreciated. Mostly, I do not, in any way, wish to express that I won't be interested in any archival releases because of their sound quality. I anxiously await the results of Mr. Singleton's efforts on said material. He's a mirical worker. Of course, today's music software/hardware makes such efforts possible. So bring it on, "Epitaph", "Earthbound II", "USA II", the 80s live material, I'll find a way to afford it and I won't be unduely critical. However, I will vote with my $ if I'm offered too much of Boz scat singing. (No, thank you. Earthbound was sufficient.) Multiple versions of "Formentera Lady/Sailor's Tale", "Devil's Triangle", "Cadence and Cascade", "21st...", "Pictures of a City", would all be welcome candidates for "the Treatment" IMHO. Bottom line, performance can transcend the medium. (Hence bootlegs.) I encourage performance, with medium a close second. J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:35:34 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Forrest Zink Subject: The Jethro-Crimson Connection Hey- When this "6 Degrees" thing first came up, someone mentioned Jethro Tull as being a hard one to connect to. I found a link, although some may consider this stretching it a bit -- Mick Abrahams was the original guitarist for Tull. He then formed Blodwyn Pig, and when he left he was replaced by Peter Banks of Yes (although this line-up broke up before any performances - live or recorded) who was in Yes with Bill Bruford who bangs the percussives for KC. (I missed the last couple of newsletters so forgive me if it was brought to light already.) -MZ- ------------------------------ Date: 02 Feb 97 19:26:33 +0500 From: tomlaw at concentric dot net (Tom Law) Subject: re: CDs for trade >I have a couple Fripp/Crimson-related CDs that I just don't enjoy much. >Here's what I have: >Sunday All Over the World, "Sunday All Over the World" (listened to twice) >Brian Eno, "Nerve Net" (listened to once) >I'm interested in "Discipline," "Red," "Lark's Tongues in Aspic," or >Fripp/Eno, "No Pussyfooting." I'd also consider other trades if you have Pardon my two cents here, but I think you should reconsider your offer, unless you are horribly low on funds. I do agree that the CDs you want to get instead are indeed more essential than "Sunday" and "Nerve Net", but those two do have their value. In regards to "Sunday", I finally decided to approach the CD as an Frippian exercise in discipline, i.e. to see if I could appreciate the instrumental parts and not let the voice bother me. (Sad to say this about Fripp's wife, who seems to be a fine person). And lo! there is some wonderful stuff to be heard. The opening cut is incredible. I almost enjoy the voice on this one. The second cut has one of the finest Fripp solos I've ever heard. (One thing I LOVE about Fripp's style is the way he will _release_ a note, esp. the last note of a solo. YOW! Fripp is one attentive dude.) "Nerve Net" did not impress me much the first few times I heard it. I let it sit a couple of years, then gave it another listen. This time my expectations were much different, and I now quite enjoy the album. In general, I try to give any music from these sorts of people plenty of time to age if I don't like it the first few times. Hell, I even like "Three of a Perfect Pair" now. I decided to think of it as a solo Belew project, with KC members in his band. It's much more enjoyable that way. I don't enjoy it as a KC album. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Law 136 Brookdale Circle Lexington, South Carolina, 29072 USA Multi-Computer Animation and Electronic Music with "My Big Sphinx of Quartz"'' Animation Orchestra http://www.concentric.net/~tomlaw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 21:41:28 -0800 From: Stephen Arthur Subject: 20 prog rock disks 3 books (a number hard to find) for sale or Here is the list, ::: Books::: 'The King Crimson book' (that standard one) 'The Brian Eno book' (by the same guy) 'The Derek Bailey book', By Derek Baily :::King Crimson Related::: Robert Fripp, and the League of Crafty Guitarists Live! Robert Fripp 1999, Soundscapes - Live in Argentina The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles, Fripp Sylvian/Fripp, Damage David Sylvian & Robert Fripp, The First Day The Acoustic Adrian Belew Bill Bruford's Earthwork's, Live :::Roxy Music Related::: Brian Eno, Dali's Car Brian Eno, 'Fractal Zoom' Brian Ferry Interview Phil Manzanera Primitive Guitars Phil Manzanera Guitarissmo :::Soft Machine Related::: Robert Wyatt, Ruth is Stranger Than Richard Robert Wyatt, Compilation Robert Wyatt Rock Bottom Matching Mole's Little Red Record Matching Mole Matching Mole The Best of Kevin Ayers June 1, 1974, Kevin Ayers-John Cale-Eno-Nico Frith & Kaiser With Friends Like These, Who Needs Friends It goes without saying the disks are in excellent condition. Prices and trades are negotiable individually. This list is mostly of collectors interest, like David Cross stuff. I am looking to trade for the following: Yes: Close to the Edge, Fragile ELP: The First Four Coltrane on Prestige Label Sonny Sharrock, Ask the Ages The New Adrian Belew CD John Zorn (Pain Killer) Miles Davis, Bitches Brew Stuff by: Frank Zappa Ozric Tentacles Budd/Eno Joe Henderson Pharoah Sanders Wayne Shorter Joe Zawinul Elvin Jones McCoy Tyner Al Dimeloa Buddy Guy Muddy Waters Weather Report ...and anything else that matches this theme of interests, kicking jazz jams especially! Hint, when offering a trade: I am looking to get the more 'popular' or listenable CDs from these artists, but not greatest hits albums, I hate those. Question? Did the new Lounge Lizards album 'Queen of All Ears' ever get released in the USA. I can not find it anywhere. And for anyone who lives in LA/California, do the Lizards tour in CA? I would love to hear Robert Wyatt sing, does he still perform? Mr. Fripp, I would like to thank you for changing my musical tastes, and Disciplining my ears. The first time I heard that album, 8 years ago, I knew I was in for quite a change in musical tastes and attitudes. You helped develop many musical interests for me outside of 'pop/rock' to jazz and experimental music (six steps?) that I never would have developed as a non-musician type person. Now, I am going to take up playing percussion and would like the first chance to play Jamie Muir in any upcoming movie about King Crimson. Looking forward to those live sets you have promised, from 69 and 80's, I would not sell those for sure unless I reach certain financial ruin. Keep it up. Next time I see you, in a hallway or something, I will respect your privacy unless you talk to me first. I am the same way, I do not like being bothered by strangers who think they know me. My two cents on Belew: Wetton is gone for good keep it that way, it seems the golden age is over for King Crimson (and Rock) is over. Be thankful we have what we have and let King Crimson evolve into what it wants to be without outside interference (the Eno approach). Sit back and enjoy the music! You don't have to buy all of it anyway, I already made that mistake. steve PS Mr. Fripp, I might be willing to give you a discount! I do hope they end up in appreciative homes. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:26:00 -0500 From: Thom Smith Subject: Role of Audience---A Belew Experience I'm glad RF refers to us as a "team"; that to me is enough recognition of us, and I believe he means it with respect. I should point out quickly that I don't personally understand the deification of performers and "famous" people. I guess I'm somewhat---well, I forget the literary term---but I believe that the art *leaves* the artist when it is created. The artist has little or no control over the interpretation. Others have put it more poignantly, but the artist is the conduit, improvising musicians even more so, since they are creating spontaneously total abstractions. One cannot define or explain something one had no intention to create, but that was created in spite of the control of the artist. Frippertronics is an excellent example of this in operation. It takes on a personality all its own. But why the cult of personality? Who the hell needs an autograph? What is its value? The artist should be left alone. But I suppose it goes back to the rather magical notion of the creator---the poet or artist is a demi-god of sorts. It occurred to me to mention that as far as the artist's relationship with the audience and the artist's desire to write *for* the audience, the whole question is complex, only illuminated by specific examples. For instance, when I saw KC in London last summer, they were performing a song---I forget which; it may have been "Dinosaur"---and Adrian apparently had found an extremely hip little guitar lick that he threw in at a musically pleasing moment. He was clearly proud of this embellishment and, when I gave a great "whoooooo!!!"---which he had to have heard as I was standing right in front of Tony and I didn't mean to disrupt the tune I was simply moved to exclamation it was purely spontaneous---he gave a big smile and I'm sure played more enthusiastically because at least one person recognized this nice new feature and appreciated it with a whoop of delight. I'm hungry for lunch now, so I'm done. Peace, Thom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:58:01 -0500 From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith) Subject: ...Not Pat but Paul >From: Mr-Neurotica > Oh yeah, one last thing, about Mastelotto...he's not a bad drummer, >he's quite good and he has a style of his own (listen to Sunday all over >the world). You're correct about Pat having a style of his own, but I'd recommend listening to "Damage" to assess it, instead; Sunday All Over the World employed the equally impressive and unique Paul Beavis, who also contributes mightily to Toyah's album "Ophelia's Shadow" and Gordon Haskell's recent "Hambledon Hill." Actually, I'd love to know more about Paul Beavis, especially in light of the Gordon Haskell connection... he plays fabulously with Trey. Can anybody elucidate? - Steve *-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith at knittingfactory dot com *-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:04:29 -0800 (PST) From: "h.w. neff" Subject: Re: Crimson tribute & re:KC/Floyd drumming hoi all. hope you'll excuse me, an interloper.... in #336, Mr-Neurotica said: # Here's my toughts on Greg Amann post in ET#329 about KC/Floyd drumming; # # I must say that i agree with most of what Greg was pointing out in # his post. But i'm sure he did not see the 1991 Yes tour (the one with all # the Yes band members, including Bruford and White). I've seen Bruford many # times and i was *never* disapointed with any of the performance i've seen # from him except maybe for this one. He played the leading drum part in # maybe 2 or 3 songs, but for the rest of the show he just sat there behind # the drums looking over the cymbals to see what White was doing and where # the puches were in the songs (specially the new ones). Most of the time he # diden't even touch the bass drum pedal, he really looked like he was # "trying" to follow the band. I must say i went to this show to see him and # i tought i would see him play like he did in the ABWH tour but he # didn't. Still it was Bruford, a musician wich i admire but his performance # that time was a bit disapointing...like i tought i would see a man running # at 150 miles/hour and he was only running 100 miles/hour wich is still # pretty good if i might say so :))) # i'm not greg ;-) but i did get to see the yes "union" tour in concord california and it is clear to me that we didn't see the same show! the performance of bruford was absolutely amazing -- completely eclipsing white. i already quite liked what i'd heard of bruford's work with yes and crimson and elsewhere, but this evening gave me a new appreciation for his abilities. perchance it was a matter of "on" vs. "off" or early in the tour vs. later in the tour, but i definitely saw a show where he hit 150. ttfn, bear. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #339 ********************************