Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #338 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 338 Sunday, 2 February 1997 SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part six) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:07:25 -0500 (EST) From: TwEbB2436 at aol dot com Subject: RF questions I have seen bits of the Fripp-as-creep strain coursing throughout over these past months, then the ludicrous pokes at Belew, then the odd if authentic response of his (i.e. odd to respond to nitwits... em, sorry), and now Robert has opened this new vein. While reading and considering his post, and then the first batch of responses, a few sparks came: Mood- For those who have had questionable run-ins with Fripp I say this: consider singular impressions. If you had just performed after months on the road, ups and downs of performances, sketchy available diet, etc.... Would you be able to always paint on a smiley and shake all the hands in want? Didn't think so. There are other ways to reach a people than politically kissing unexpecting (or over-expecting) babies. Audience participation- What is audience participation? Maniacal applause whenever your brain dumps the adrenaline? Sloppily clapping the beat as though the pros can't find it? Screaming "yeah yeah yeah" "you got it" "number one!!" ? Flicking your bick (or bic) as though the house lights aren't out for a reason? Singing along to prove you know the material, and are available for hire? Talking about that time when...? It seems these are not exactly vehicles through which insight could be channeled. It is one thing to feel, sense, and let the energy flow through you, and even allow your body to move with it, but to uncap, open the valve, and spray the rest of us with all of your personal byproducts would seem a little beyond the bounds. Performance-visual?- The lasers and the lights and the simulated smoke and the inflatable pigs and the costumes and the... Over the years these things have found their place in the rock and roll performance. This whole scope of show of glitz of glam, has defined an entire culture named pop. This is dandy, but it seems we have moved slightly away from the point of things which, I think(?), is the music. Certain bands have recognized this detraction and have shed some of the more bulky wastes. It seems to me that the only visual quality of a good musical performance is simply that of witness to the interaction from musician to musician to listener. Student/Consumer- As a student of music I have found Robert Fripp a particularly accessible person. I have learned much from this man who, when we consider his public status, has opted to allow certain availability to the public. Is there anyone else who has done this, even slightly near to that of Fripp? Not to my knowledge. He could simply slip from public eye during his downtime like most if not all popular figures, but instead he has reached out to an unknown mass to lend a hand (or two). As a student I have received much more than anyone could have ever expected (although I wouldn't mind a published treatise illustrating how to put the pieces together into music, ehem, Robert?). As a consumer I have been sufficiently supplied with more material than my mind can ever completely comprehend (but pleease Robert, more writing more writing more writing!). With today's capabilities of super-communication technologies and documentation technologies, I know there could be a larger bulk of material, and I have seen KC's stack of ADAT's amongst their road gear, and so I salivate for more more more (the fundament of bootlegs), but as I've said above, we've been treated to sufficiency. Intimacy- The student/instructor, audient/performer relationships should surely be those of intimacy, and extracurricular warmth is certainly a bonus and a developing bond. But intimacy also requires a respect for boundaries. No? People have extremely diverse needs- I saw Bill Frisell play a solo rendition of "When You Wish Upon a Star" one evening at the Knitting Factory, and while on the verge of weeping I noticed a guy up front get up with disgust and exit. I couldn't stop thinking, "What more could you possibly want?" Could we all be pleased at once? The answer is simply: no. It is actually quite amazing how close someone can actually bring so many people. Public Figures- Once I saw Jesse Jackson waiting for a train in Philadelphia, and I had the urge to shake his hand. As I approached, I watched his expression change as he noticed me coming, his suited muscle-boys started twitching, and when I offered up my empty hand I saw relief settle into his brow. As we were shaking I tried to think of something to say, but all that came was, "sorry." And I walked away. Needless to say, I now try to avoid this affect. Biographies- People are fixated on finding the person behind the works. Obviously when someone's work becomes publicly affecting, the consumer wants to know the well from whence this fresh water hath come (isn't this valid?). However, as we know, biographies (and biographers) are sometimes less than real, with a temptation to spice a character with fictitious liberties or personal slants (sell some books). Perhaps Fripp might authorize a real one, or better yet write one himself! (the real Zappa book comes to mind) P.S. Watch where you step. There may be bovine in the vicinity. ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Fripp Response Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:57:00 -0500 Robert Fripp's comments in ET 332 and 329 prompt this response. 1. Regarding personal rights and expectations of a fan: I expect no more from you (or any other artist) than I do from any other human being: (a) civility; and (b) practice of the Golden Rule (although I am non-religious, I believe this maxim to be a sensible way to go about life). I agree that "time, place and person" are variables that can have significant effects on one's behavior when practicing (a) and (b). That's why my, your and others' behavior and expectations vary under different circumstances. That's why it's rude for someone to stand in front of you while you are trying to watch a performance, but it may not be rude under other circumstances. It is important, however, to distinguish between expectations and desires. These concepts delineate the boundaries of a fan's personal rights and expectations. Like many of your fans, I often _desire_ much more than what my reasonable _expectations_ suggest I will receive. My only interaction with you was a brief "hello" before a League show in Boulder in 1991. You passed next me before the show. I said "hello," and I _expected_ a cordial response. You said "hello" back, and my reasonable expectations were met. I had no _right_ to receive a response from you. But I think, under those circumstances, completely ignoring me would have violated (a) and/or (b) above. Independent of that interaction, you also signed my copy of "Live!," which, at my request, the souvenir salesman brought to you backstage. I _desired_ for you to autograph my cd, but I realized that, under the circumstances ("time, place and person"), I did not have a reasonable _expectation_ that you would (I certainly had no _right_ to have you do so). Like many of your fans, I would love to speak with you about your music, etc. Under the circumstances that evening, I knew better than to _expect_ such an interaction (my expectations might be different under other circumstances). Unfortunately for you and other "stars," it seems that many fans act upon their _desires_ without considering what is warranted under a reasonable set of _expectations_. Largely, this all boils down to mutual respect, a term you have omitted from your posts, but that seems to concern you. 2. Regarding artistic rights expectations of a fan: (a) A fan has no right to determine the content of an album or concert. A fan does have the rights to evaluate and comment on the content of the album and concert. If a fan is disappointed by the content of the album or concert, the fan has the rights (i) not to purchase the album; (ii) to play frisbee with it (or otherwise dispose of it without harming someone else); (iii) not buy the album; (iv) leave the concert; (v) not go to another concert, etc. (b) A fan has NO right to have the artist hear, consider, respond to, react to or be affected in any way by the fan's evaluation of the album or concert. A fan has NO right to express his disappointment by the content of an album or concert in a manner that hinders in any way the artist's performance or that interferes with the enjoyment of other fans. I was disappointed when KC ended two concerts with a "slow" song (I think One Time, but don't remember). I had the right to politely leave the show, but I had no right to boo the performance. I have a right to express my disappointment and/or preferences in certain forums. I have no right to determine what you perform or record. Based on your statement that "little in my life is arbitrary," I assume that you had a distinct purpose in selecting a particular closing song. Although I am interested in learning about that purpose, I have a right to remain disappointed by the selection and express my disappointment. (c) In certain forums, a fan has a limited right to express his opinion of the artist's work product. In expressing such opinions, a fan has the right to be intelligent, offensive or ignorant. The artist and other readers have the right to ignore or respond to the fan's comments. In responding, the artist or other reader has the right to be intelligent, offensive or ignorant. As in all free marketplaces of ideas, consumers have a right to determine for themselves the value of each offering. I think ET works very well for this purpose. 3. Regarding obligations of an artist: (a) Give your best effort. Live your professional life with integrity and principle. (b) The money issue raises certain obligations that arise out of contract principles. These are legal obligations (i.e., if I pay for a cd, I have a right to receive one; if I pay for a concert, I have a right to view and hear one) that seem to me to be distinct from the core issues you raise. Although I would like to go on, this is already far too long. For that, I apologize. Thank you for communicating in ET. It's been a valuable experience to read about your perspective and some of your concerns. Mike Heilbronner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 23:03 +0100 From: Carsten dot Collatz at t-online dot de (collatz) Subject: RF questions i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician ? A musician cannot be professional without an audience, while the audience does not depend on a single musician. The musician fulfills a need of the audience, and this is the more true for enthusiasts and fans. In order to have an audience, the musician must respond to those needs in a way, which does not mean to fully match up to the audience's expectations. For me, listening to music has two major aspects: - the formal one I try to 'understand' the music, i.e. to predict its further flow. The more difficult this is, the more rewarding the music - but if it's not possible (maybe just because I am not familiar with the music harmonies and rhythms used) it is like listening to arbitrary noise. - the emotional one I try to grasp the feeling that the musician(s) put into their work. So, for both aspects the musician needs to relate to the audience's ability to understand the formal and emotional content. Of course, the musician can target specific audiences. If a core audience has been acquired, he/she can also extend the audience's understanding of music - responding to one another in an open-minded way, a mutual development is possible. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan ? The audience has the right to buy or not tickets/CDs and to express opinions about the music (but not about the musician as a person). The audience, providing the foundation for the musician's income, has also the right to be respected. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan ? At performances neither the musician nor the rest of the audience must be disturbed. What this exactly means depends on the kind of performance, and is obviously different in rock and classical concerts. I also see the obligation to make an effort to understand the formal and emotional content of the music, at least for enthusiasts and fans. iv) What do I personally expect of my artists ? I expect that they put care and effort into their performances and into their production of musical documents. I also appreciate it, if they support my trying to understand their music, for example by providing background information, text books, and the like, as is most of the time the case for King Crimson and Robert Fripp CDs. v) What do I personally expect from Robert Fripp ? I would appreciate (expect is not the right word) if you continued to take risks with your work and to search for new ways of expression. So 'Lizard', which certainly was an unusual project, helped me to deal with my chaotic feelings after a close friend had died - such deeply felt experiences are not possible with music that fulfills expectations of the mass market and fits into predefined schemes. I thank you for the music that you gave and give us, and welcome that you asked these questions in ET. I would be interested, probably as many others, in your answers to analogous questions on your rights and obligations as an artists and your expectations of your audience / enthusiasts / fans. Carsten Collatz Fredericiastr. 5 14059 Berlin Germany E-Mail: Carsten dot Collatz at t-online dot de ------------------------------ From: "Matt George" Subject: RF Questions Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:51:01 -0000 Behind his anti-Kantian, Aristotelian "Discipline is never an end in itself---only a means to an end" pragmatic exterior, we all know that one Robert Fripp concurrently subscribes to contemporary neo-Platonism AND a revitalized neo-Pythagoreanism with their strongly ascetic corresponding qualities and number theories ---------the transcendant-mystical nature of the music clearly reflects this commitment. (BTW, to answer at least one of the questions: A musical performance should create the conditions for a collective cathartic experience whereby the audience is brought to the point of extreme ecstacy, or despair, and thereby purged of its own potentially repressing energy.) Matt George "The intellect strikes up the tune, and the will must dance to it...." --|| Schopenhauer bmgeorge at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:06:14 -0500 From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Responses to Fripp's questions Many of the responses I'm going to write will be similar to other people's, so I'll try to keep them as short as possible. >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / >enthusiast / fan and the musician? At times these can be the same relationship, at times they are not. Audience - musician: During a performance, the relationship one hopes for is a symbiotic connection between the two groups. The musician plays something that moves the audience, the audience responds in a way that moves the musician to continue trying to move the audience. This relationship can move both the audience and musicain to a higher level of musical understanding. Musician - enthusiast/fan: although they can also have a symbiotic relationship similar to the musician/audience, there is a better chance that the music will reach the fan than just a person who has never heard the music before. There is also a consumer relationship, where the musician releases albums that he/she enjoys, and the fans buy it. If both are moved by the album, then the fan can assist the musician's financial status by turning others onto the musician, creating more fans. Unfortunately this can also work in reverse if the fan does not like the music. >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Being a country where free speech is supposedly encouraged, I've always felt that the fan has the right to say if he or she likes where a musician is going, direction-wise. The musician, subsequently, has the right not to listen to the fan and continue doing whatever the musician wants. >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? The big obligation/responsibility a fan has is to assist in producing the environment the musician is trying to attain with his/her audience, by listening attentively, and hoping the others will follow the example. To a lesser degree, it is the fan's obligation to support the artist if the artist records music that the fan enjoys. However, financially, this may not be as easy as it sounds. Some people hear of great albums that Fripp has worked on, but just don't have the money or resources to a) see him on tour, b) buy all of the works he hears. Let's face it, no one is going to be able to buy every album they want, unless they're rich. We have to pick and choose, and hopefully our options will be colored by other fans. They are obligated to share the music of the performer with others, if the others are willing. Playing THRaKaTTaK over the PA at work may sound like a good idea, but... >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >your artists? I don't expect anything of the artists I enjoy. Already many have given me hundreds of hours of listening enjoyment. I hope, however, that the musician will continue recording music that I and others will enjoy. I hope that the band will receive critical and/or financial success for their efforts, or are well-rewarded by their fans. I would also hope that they are willing to listen to the fans every now and again. I also hope that if an artist does not wish people to bootleg shows, that they find another solution, such as releasing shows of each tour. If they do not, I hope they can understand when fans try to attain bootlegs of said tour. >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect >of Robert Fripp? As I said before, I expect nothing. I hope that KC will continue on to the 21st century, and that they will continue release viable recordings, whether new or archival concert footage, that I will enjoy. If not, then I will listen to the old records and be content with them. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:04:59 +1100 From: Marcel Safier Subject: RF questions Hey, I've read Robert Fripp's posting with interest, but there's only one question I wish to respond to: > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? Well for a start you must come and play my home town at least three times on every tour. Before the first show I happen to sight you in a local cafe buying some coffee and when I tap you on the shoulder you turn around smiling offering to buy me coffee and you invite me to join you at your table and meet Toyah and then you ignore her while you answer the miriad of questions I have been saving since the 70s to ask you (important penetrating quaestions like what hair spray you used to maintain your headfuzz in the early days). I also expect complimentary front row tickets for myself and a few friends (well just the eight of us I suppose) and I expect you to send a limousine to collect us for each show. During the shows I expect you to periodically nod and wave to us and generally recognise the honour we bestow upon you by spending our hard earned time if not money to come and see you. After the shows I expect VIP backstage passes and since we may not get a chance to eat before the show you had better lay on a 7 course spread. I expect to be introduced to each member of the band and be accorded the status I am entitled to after all I own every single and album, in all the vinyl and CD versions, the videos and of course all the bootlegs. Naturally I have all these items with me and I expect every band member to sign each one and endorse them "To my best friend ...... who taught me every thing I know about music. You're the best". I expect you to doggedly follow me around the backstage area and not waste your time on the other assembled plebs who think they are entitled to meet you because they have intellectualised on ET. You will give me a fistful of your guitar picks for coming to the gig and what the heck, also giving me an old Gibson that you have used since the 60s and which was used to record every classic KC album and you were just waiting to meet your biggest committed fan to bestow it upon. You also undertake to send me complimentary autographed copies of all subsequent albums in one off 20 bit gold editions. On parting I expect to receive your home address and phone number in case I should pop into you neighbourhood and you invite me to utilise the spare room as I desire. I am also allowed access to your private tape collection and allowed to dub freely so I can set up some tape trees and do some tape trading. You wont object if I empty your fridge or spill red wine on the carpet. I return for this (after all I do believe in a bit of give and take) I undetake to return a Fripp Real Estate For Sale sign that I stole whilst travelling through Dorset a few years back as I heard that this was your family's business. Oh, and I also have a fifth generation photocopied letter written by Jimmy Hendrix in which he says you are the greatest guitarist around. You are welcome to use this as you see fit. I am sure you find the average KC fan/ET reader to be as equally considerate as me and I am sure this is what drives you to continuing your career in musical entertainment. A Fan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:58:01 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: RF response 1) nature of audient/musician relationship. Lovers who are strangers. 2) rights of audience Good sound system, well-marked fire exits, show that begins approximately on time, musicians that play in tune and don't behave like automatons (unless it's a Kraftwerk show). 3) responsibilities of audience To behave unlike trained seals or syncophants. 4) what I expect of performers. One thing only: etonnez-moi. 5) What I expect of Fripp: see #4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:57:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catnips at aol dot com Subject: reply to Robert To Robert, I'm generally one of the quiet ones who belongs to this list, but after a day of gallery/museum hopping in NYC, something clicked and I've decided I needed to reply. The nature of the relationship between myself and you is basically the same relationship I have with any piece of art in the public forum. You are there to perform. If I enjoy what I see/hear I will stop and spend time with you otherwise I will pass you by. Basically that's my right for all the arts. My responsiblity is to act responsible. It would be greatly disturbing to me to see King Crimson shielded behind plexiglass or worse yet, to never see you live again. Sadly, there have been people placed on this planet who show no respect for art and i've encountered them mostly at live gigs. You have decided that, to make your living, you would be a musician. I expect you to continue exploring your craft and that if you should ever begin to hate your job that you be honest enough to explore that hate and if it's true, quit. I don't like fakes. You have been smart enough to involve yourself with some of the finest musicians and I feel ,if this practice continues, you will never fall into that hate. I think that about sums it up. Thank you for the 24 years of music I've personally experienced through you. Cathy ------------------------------ From: Mike Hipkins Subject: In Response to Fripp Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 23:37:11 GMT Dear All, RF posed the following questions: 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these questions: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? This is a more difficult question to answer than it might first seem: in a media saturated world, domindated by the fast image and the two second sound-bite, there is a tendancy toward trivialization and inanity that supresses information and genuine debate - you only have to examine the state of political "debate" in the UK or USA to see the results. In this general atmosphere, it is inevitable that music/art "journalism" and "criticism" become infected with the same virus that has infected the rest of "journalism" and, the result of this is trivial articles that ask trivial questions and get tivial answers. This type of "jouralism" can also help encourage an almost vampiric relationship between musician and audience whereby the musician becomes the "property" of the audience and leads to the audience making demands on the performer that would result the collapse of that relationship, if it were conducted between freinds/lovers/colleagues in the same selfish, inconsiderate manner. This type of vampiric relationship leads to alienation, barriers and hostility, with the audience as besiegers and the performer/musician/artist as beseiged. So, how are the audience to relate to the performer ? In my opinion, simply, as fellow human beings, with human failings and human needs. You treat them with respect and kindness, and that means: leave the poor people alone. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Very few. If we are privalaged, the artist will complete their art, and then release it into the public domain. We, the audience then have a choice: with either engage with that peice of art - read the book, see the movie, hear the album etc - or we do not. The choice is **ours**; artists do not force their art upon us, rather we choose to sample it. Thus the responsibility for the reaction to that art is also ours. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To engage with that art in a constructive and open minded manner. To expect little of the art, except the privalage of engaging with it and, hopefully, an experience that we will find stimulating and exciting. If we do not, then we have the right to criticise that art, but only in an informed and constructive manner. By constrctive and informed, I mean the audience/enthusiast/fan should understand the intellectual background to the work and attempt to understand what the artist is attempting to convey. For example, much of the "is a pile of bricks art" discussion that goes on in the popular press in uninformed and bigoted because no or little effort has been made to understand the background to the work in question. Once this effort has been made by the audience/enthusiast/fan and if the work is still found wanting, then criticism should be courteous and well informed, just as any civilized exchange of opinions should be. However if after that exchange, the criticism is rejected, then the artist should be free to persue their path, just as the audience/enthusiast/fan is free to reject the work. Any attempt by either side to force their opinions on the other is a act of violence and essentially fascist in nature. It is unfortunate that such exchanges often degenerate and what are only opinions soon become transformed into tribal totems (ideology). Debate then collapses into simple sloganising of the "four legs good two legs bad" variety and any attempt at informed diaglogue is lost. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? The privilege of experiencing art that is envigorating and stimulating. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? The privilege of experiencing art that is envigorating and stimulating. However, there are several unique aspects to the way that you approach your relationship with the audient / enthusiast / fan that deserve further comment. Firstly, your efforts to inform the audience to the background and devlopment for your work. I came to your work via Eno's Another Green World and your collabarations with Eno on No Pussyfooting and Evening Star. I only became interested in KC later, my first purchase being Disipline in 1981, and I have worked backward and forward through the KC catalogue from there. My first RF purchase was the League of Gentlemen/Let The Power Fall double cassette, and the notes that your wrote for Let The Power Fall proved, at least for me, a vital background for listening to this work. Your continuing efforts in this area, via the scrap books/notes for The Great Deceiver and Frame By Frame and the Personal Note From Robert contributions found in your recent works are informative and inportant background to understanding your work. I ask that they should continue. They also allow you to communicate with the audient / enthusiast / fan directly without recourse to the inanities of the music press. They also allow me to be informed by you without having to provide commertial support to the purveyors of those inanities. Secondly, your rejection of the vampiric nature of the fan/performer relationship. This I wholly understand. Your choice of lighting at the recent KC gigs at the Empire Shepards Bush, both of which I was lucky enough to attend, demostrated your efforts, at least in my perception, to be seen as part of KC **as a whole** rather than as KC and ROBERT FRIPP. As for autograph hunters and people who hassle in general, this alas is part of the modern fan/performer relationship as promoted by the media. I can see no justification for it. No one hassled Rembrandt or Monet or Beethoven for autographs, and I cannot see why modern artists are subjected to this form of attention. I hope you have found this response constructive and that it contributes positively to the debate you have initiated. With best regards Mike Hipkins ft66 at dial dot pipex dot com ------------------------------ From: "Some guy" Subject: What we owe Fripp, what he owes us Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:06:59 -0600 In response to his questions: What do we owe him? As an artist, we owe him nothing. As a person, we should respect his privacy. What does he owe us? He doesn't owe us anything more than a reasonable expectation as to what we may be about to pay for. I wish I could buy all of his works but I don't have the money. I don't want to buy Thrakattack when I'm expecting 1999. Yes, we pay his bills - that gives us the right to listen to his music, nothing more. We also have no right to say he should make more albums like ________________. It's his music, we just listen to it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:32:52 EST From: haiders at kenyon dot edu Subject: RF Questions Hi all. I haven't read any of the responses to Robert's questions yet, but here are my own. I'd just like to say that my responses are my ideal. I realize that most of my answers don't apply to most fans and most bands, but I think it would be nice. i) The relationship of an artist and an audience should be like a one way conversation (at least one way during the performance). The artist should come to say, "Here. This is what has been in my mind or what has been given to me." The audience should listen and take what they want from what they hear. They may gain some insight from what they hear. They may gain nothing. It is communication. ii) The rights of the audience are few. They have the right to safety and they have the right to basic respect. I hate it when staff or security become "bitchy" for no reason. If they have a problem with someone's actions, they can voice it politely. I, for one, always listen when a staff member at a venue asks me to do something. I guess they sometimes become angry because some fans do not listen. Anyway, that's about it. When the fan buys a ticket, he is taking a gamble. He has purchased the right to hear a conversation, but it may not be a good one. He has the right to be angry, but not to act on that anger. Fans have imperfect information and should not pass judgement on the performance or the artists without knowing everything (which is impossible). iii) The responsibilities of the fans are to "behave" and listen to what the artist is saying (both musically and verbally). Show respect to the artist. You can have your opinion, but give others the chance to hear the conversation and form their own. iv) I only expect the artists I see to come and perform. I don't care what they do or say. I am there to see and hear something and they can do what they want while they are on stage. Every concert is different and I always take something away from it. The only time I come with preconceived notions is when an artist has specifically claimed certain things. Then I expect to see or hear those things. v) I am not a Robert Fripp expert. I don't have a written transcript of everything he has ever said. I do get the impression from what I read that he values truth. He speaks often about music that needs people to play it. Therefore, I expect that from Robert. I do not want music that is made for someone or for any external reason. I want music that demands to be heard, whatever form it takes. I expect Robert to stay true to his vision and his musical voice. If Robert truly feels that it is time to put out a rap record, then that's what I want to hear. If Robert puts out a rap record because he wants a number one record, then I don't want to hear a note. Other than being true, Robert can do whatever he wants. I don't expect Robert to stick around and sign things and talk to people. Everyone reacts differently to certain stimuli. It would be nice for Robert to sit and talk to everyone, but he's Robert and he reacts differently. As long as Robert does what Robert has to do, he will have my support and admiration. Sean Haider ------------------------------ From: argus at gptmail dot globalpac dot com (argus) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:28:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Reply to Robert Fripp i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? The nature should be one of a mutual desire to reach a common understanding of some sort and on some level... communicated via music... where that sort and level varies between genres and artists/composers within those genres (emotional understandings, metaphysical understandings, and so on) . What the nature *is*, and what it has become, is another matter altogether, one which frustrates me to discuss. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To a safe venue in which to receive what the musician has to offer; to an honest performance with regard to the advertising and set of expectations explicitly set forth in that advertising ("King Crimson Thrak tour!!! 8pm Friday" etc .. and if we get the Kingston Trio, well, we was robbed!!). Beyond that, which is really nothing more than the right to a performance which lies within a pre-agreed context, and even then that "right" is more of the expectation of fulfillment of a commercial agreement than anything else, thats it. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Oh, to respect the performance by keeping within the parameters of behavior of which the particular context calls. At a symphony, shaddup and sit back and dont applaud between movements, etc. At a Ska performance it of course would be a wee bit different!! There does seem to be a list of responsibilities which fan should keep w.r.t. the artist and the artist's person. The audient/fan is obliged to treat the people around him with respect, whether they be fellow audience or musician/performer. Well, ok, it is sometimes tough to keep from going all goo-goo when we see our favorite guitarist, pianist, etc, but we as fans are certaily obliged to respect the context in which we meet said fave musician and by extension respect them as people. It is also the responsibility of the fans to *listen* to the music, and to appreciate the performance (whether on CD or in live action) of the music within the context of the intentions of that artist which are behind the work. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? Paraphrasing something you (allegedly) said once, I expect an artist to "play the music that they want to play", and to play it with as much enthusiasm as allowed in a circumstance, and with the intention of offering to the audience a common understanding of the idea behind the work/s (mood/s, and so on, and this is where nomenclature gets slippery). Wherther the audience "gets it" is another matter, we hope they do, but ya never can tell with bees (so its been said). I expect the artists I like to do the music they want to do. If they believe what they're playing, *I'll* believe it. I expect them to deliver the goods within the context of which we, the audeince and the artists, agreed to implicitly before the actual performance via ads, articles, ticket sale promo, etc etc. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Heh, well, to keep being Robert Fripp. Your past speaks for itself: all of your recordings define who "Robert Fripp" is to me as a public figure. We've never had lunch or hung out and talked until 2am, so that lack of point of reference precludes me any set of expectations not gathered from listening to that stack of CDs and LPs over in the corner. (The corner with the rice and sugar offerings... and, oh nevermind.) With regard to the famous "Frippitude", who the hell can comment? Last time I was onstage, in the middle of a complicated little thang we were playing, someone reached up, tugged at my shirt, and asked if they could purchase a signed CD. All this while I had my hands full of piano keys, at a venue that was a far cry from a wedding or bar-mitzvah! I couldn't respond in that context, and so one person went off thinking I was an awful shmuck of a person. . Ah well. As I believe you have also mentioned in a previous post, judging a person's behavior without benefit of the description of the context is, well, in my words, just darn silly. Thnk you for the offer to put in a couple of cents. Sincerely, Jason Rubenstein --- --- --- --- --- --- argus/Jason Rubenstein http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~argus argus at globalpac dot com argus at rci dot ripco dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #338 ********************************