Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #337 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 337 Saturday, 1 February 1997 Today's Topics: SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part five) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:11:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: Proposal for an organised/DISCIPLINEd answer to RF Hi ETs Our "hero" RF wrote: Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these questions: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Because it is likely that hundreds of ETers will answer, and this may end in undigestable newsletters I propose to do a kind of organized OPINION POLL with a STANDARDIZED QUESTIONNAIRE which is put onto the elephant talk website seperately from the newsletter. I want to encourage sociologists/psychologists amongst us to construct such a survey - and we answer by e-mail. ET with its 3-5000 regular readers should provide an excellent base to study our attitudes towards KC and RF. We should create our own data on KC - e.g. what is/are the most beloved albums or songs of KC ? Is the readership of ET really >95% white, male, 20-30yrs of age, middle-class ? What do we expect of RF, KC ? If we don't organise ourselves - only the "usual" Eters will answer to RF, and all the others don't, so we'll get a wrong picture (selection bias). It's true that occasionally it can be rather annoying to read this unorganized chit-chat about KC. IN the literature databases I found some literature on music and audience relationships like Rock and roll in search of an audience by Lawrence Grossberg (Univ. of Illinois) in Popular music and communication (2nd ed.) Sage focus editions, vol. 89. (James Lull, Ed.), pp. 152-179. Sage Publications Inc., Newbury park, CA, U.S.A. So long - Markus Schneemann Institute of Molecular Medicine John Radcliffe Hospital OXFORD OX3 9DU U.K. schneema at icrf dot icnet dot uk *------------------------------ Subject: Re: From Robert Fripp From: chipnkel at juno dot com (Chip & Kelly Hughes) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:57:45 EST Robert, Thank you for responding to the Elephant Talk forum. It is amazing to me that you would take the time to write to this forum and share opinions and thoughts with your enthusiasts. This is certainly not one of my expectations of KC-RF. Therefore, it is a welcome and pleasant surprise. I did not respond to Adrians' note several issues back and I must admit that this was due to my embarrassment of the pounding given him by my fellow enthusiasts. This is not a good reason on my part to remain silent. I feel that I made myself part of what I am sure is the "silent majority". Adrian, You the Man! I have been a Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew enthusiast since the late '70's. I was most surprised and pleased to hear of their collaborative efforts in 1980 to reform King Crimson. I have since followed their work within and outside of this entity. With the recent thread of 'burning guitar' contributed by RF on DB's "Scary Monsters" and mention of Low-Heroes period Bowie. I would like to point out that in the late '70's Bowie received a demo tape from a young mid-westerner who claimed to be able to play the guitar parts for the Low-Heroes era Bowie albums. David doubted this, since most of the guitar tracks were so heavily treated, masked, overdubbed and even recorded backwards. This technique created a problem for presenting the material in a live venue, without using a heavy artillery of pre-recorded material to augment the performance. After Bowie listened to the tape, the young mid-westerner Adrian Belew, was enlisted to reproduce these strange guitar parts on his tour. Give the live Bowie album "Stage" a listen and check out the contributions on guitar by Belew. He then contributed to Bowie's next studio album, Lodger. Please give these tracks a listen. !burning! . . . That's all I have to say about that. Thank you Robert for asking us to define our expectations, rights, obligations and assumptions made about "our" artists. This will help each of us to examine where and what "My 'tude" is. I think that many of us feel when we plunk down our hard-earned pay for a CD / album, concert ticket, t-shirt, boxed set, limited edition Collectors item, etc., that we now "own" that piece of KC-RF. Economically, I have cast my dollar vote for KC-RF to produce a similar product to the one which I have purchased. With that ownership comes opinions of the product I have bought. If I am happy with the quality and beauty of this product, I will more readily purchase another similar KC-RF product in the future. If I am displeased with the product I may be more hesitant to purchase the next KC-RF product available. Upon "ownership", I have also now become a spokesman for the product. I take it upon myself to convey my experience to fellow enthusiasts about this recent purchase. This, in effect, makes me a "critic" of sorts. These are my assumptions. The question that you lead me to ask myself that I have not, up to this point in the relationship between audient and musician, is "Do I truly 'own' any part of KC-RF?" I must truthfully answer no. My assumptions then are false. I own a slice of KC-RF, an event or love letter frozen in memory, but malleable. A CD in a box. A permanent performance, unchanging. Is this how we want KC-RF, unchanging? I think not. >> What are my rights as an audient / enthusiast / fan? I believe that I may not own KC-RF but I do own my feelings about KC-RF. This gives me the right to express those feelings that I personally have about the artist / product within reason. The resulting elephantosities resulting from myself and other enthusiasts is very curious and usually enjoyable to me, on a personal level. I first found this true in the companion booklets to "Young Persons Guide", "Frame by Frame" and "Great Deceiver". I personally thank you (Robert) for making these various opinions readily available. I also thank Toby Howard for making this continuing dialogue between artists and enthusiasts possible here with ET. >> What are my responsibilities and obligations as an audient / enthusiast / fan? My responsibilities and obligations lie in removing the definitions and expectations that I place on KC-RF. One of the most endearing and special attributes of KC is the difficulty to define or "categorize" the music that is performed. It seems that there are many different opinions of the music. It has been stated that one "either loves or hates Crimso". It is personally interesting to see all the shades of grey exhibited by enthusiasts who "love" Crimson. The freedom of the music from categorization is enhanced when I can leave my expectations of KC and the music at the door before I enter the current listening area. I believe that this atmosphere of freedom is necessary for the music then to "lean over and take us into its confidence". This is where the "love" and enjoyment is felt and flows. >> What do I personally as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of my artists? When I purchase a concert ticket, CD, etc. I expect to be entertained and quite possibly to feel a connection or "love", which I do not feel I have the ability to explain at this point of my growth. Can anyone else similarly experienced, shred some Light? >> What do I personally as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? I expect that Robert follow his muse wherever that may lead him. To do anything else for commercial considerations or to gain popularity would be to rob the creative process of its' impact, freedom and beauty. I now would like to acknowledge, Robert, that you are the greatest guitarist in the world! ;^) (Oh, some of my fellow enthusasts will be pissing over that one!) Finally, I think most of the other actors have been settled on for "King Crimson: The Movie". I must, however, lobby for Dustin Hoffman as Trey Gunn, especially in light of reports of TG's new shorter coif. Thank you, Chip Hughes. "I'll bring my little ghetto blaster. There's more to life than this." -Bjvrk ------------------------------ From: "Gerd Weyhing" Organization: Rechenzentrum der Uni Mannheim Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:14:58 MET-1 Subject: Re: Robert Fripp's Posting Dear Robert, in ET 328, You said: >In all the comments on "Fripp's 'tude" I don't recall anyone commenting >that my onstage and offstage behaviour might simply be practical, and in >some way serving my aim. It seems that sometimes things are so simple that we (at least I) can't see them. For some time, I have followed discussions and nasty remarks (like in the two open letters to You, which I read in the ET Archives) on why You're never fully lit onstage. I never knew the reason, until I read Tomoyuki Ohsawa's Posting, but I always thought that full lighting probably has a negative effect on Your performance. (The question why You usually sit on a stool when performing also has a very practical and simple answer to me: Being a guitar player myself, I found that working more than one footswitch or -pedal at the same time is very difficult standing up.) To me, It doesn't matter how You perform, how much light You get or what clothes You wear. If a particular way of doing something is, in Your eyes, helpful for the creation of music, then please do it like that. If something stands in the way which would impair Your performance, please feel free to do something against it or get rid of it. It's the music that is most important. I've heard a lot of Your music, and I love most of it. It has been a major source of inspiration for me since almost 10 years, and I want to thank You for that. Sincerely, Gerd =:-# ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:50:43 -0500 From: Matt Lincoln Subject: Forwarding letter from Bret Hart From: Ears Hart i wish to respond to mr. fripp's queries (#3; i-v) posted in reaction to an ardent fan's perception that mr. fripp, in pursuit of his aim, invalidated his very existence. i want to make it clear that this document is not a parody of mr. fripp's use of the English language. it's how i talk. indeed, the relationship between artist and art-recipient can be most perplexing. during the 23 years that I have been performing music for 'audients', numerous peculiar, troubling, often delightful "acquaintances" have occured because a listener/viewer felt a need to communicate with me, for some reason, about my art. often, i have been busy, distracted, or en route elsewhere when these persons initiated their communications. on at least one occasion, the physical appearance (which, then, met my criteria for "unstable/spooky") of the approacher disinclined me to receive them. i kept the interaction brief. working in many media, as i do, increases the quantity and type of person in receivership of my art. for this, i am thankful (we all know about that 'gift horse'...who cares if the molars are bad?). possibility has bloomed where i least expected it, and i've enjoyed others having understood and appreciated things which i worked very hard to bring to fruition. a singer/songwriter friend of mine once shared misgivings about an "inability" to relate with his listeners. he claims not to have been born with "The Social Gland", and feels uncomfortable when approached by strangers at his gigs. having participated in numerous musical collaborations with him, i have had the repeated opportunity to observe his socio-artistic interactions with objectivity. i explained that, to the mildly-perceptive observer, he communicates the following through his actions/human conduct at performances: "Get out of my way, insect! No time to talk. I'm here to entertain you." it occured to me that synchronous positive events are somehow in conflict with one another during the public marketing of his music: a. a receptive public, brings interest, enthusiasm, and their diverse and multifariously-bedecked personalities to his gig...THIS IS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE WORK / EXPENSE OF RECEIVING ANOTHER'S ART. It is either a gift, or stupidity. b. when a committed artist brings and attempts to deliver her/his interests/enthusiasms/ personality to that public in the form of live music...THE ARTIST HAS MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PROMOTE/MARKET/PROMULGATE THEIR ART AS PRODUCT* (re; corn chips) TO A PAYING PUBLIC. at this point in the relationship, we may begins to answer mr. fripp's questions to his buying public. Q's: "What is the nature of the relationship between audience/enthusiast/fan (a/e/f) and the musician? What are the responsibilities and obligations of the a/e/f?" An answer: the nature of the relationship is based upon everything Life on Earth, common sense, compassion, and responsible living would most immediately suggest to either choice-maker, having made one of the conscious choices identified above. the a/e/f is responsible for treating the artist with the respect accorded any living thing. the artist is responsible for treating the a/e/f with the respect any person engaged in commerce should have for their meal-ticket, never with contempt. no argument allowed on this. this validates, for the a/e/f , their purchasing choices, and increases the likelihood of future interaction with the artist's business. if the artist/musician is sharing the art they create with the public, and only(*again) through cash transactions (as does mr. fripp), then the artist accepts this arrangement, having created and participated in it. if it is one's aim to sell, then that which relates to one's selling must, necessarily, become the hat on the head of the pantheon of activity leading to/proceeding from that process. these are the imperative considerations which place occasional** sandwiches in the hands of artists. this answer cannot begin to anticipate potential variants to the equation...i clearly remember the day john lennon signed an autograph for a dangerous, unstable fan....frank zappa was thrown off a stage by an irate audience member and required hospitalization...The United States of Arthur's precious eyeball mask was stolen by a "fan" during a Residents concert...bill laswell is reputed to carry, and brandish often, a handgun....in 1978, an overzealous "fan" gave me the crabs...and so forth. one can only speculate whether there might be some lone Guitar Craft graduate out there who holds mr. fripp personally responsible for the lack of (anticipated) commercial recognition received, following from their 'creative-association'. if mr. fripp's reaction to the approaching fan was based upon fear, it is unfortunate that he took himself, and was unmindful in an environment, where danger could gain access to his life. * the conscious choice of not participating in commercial art...and devoting that time spent selling to further exploration of the muse, is always available. in so doing, the entire concept of "pesky audience" evaporates and whistles out the window. ** relative abundance, coupled with perceived sense of buyer-inattention, has been shown to shift the minds of many business-persons. For example, "I now have enough, and thus, require less/care less about feedback regarding my product. i can, at this point, survive on what my sales bring in..." observe what happened to Chrysler or Digital in the 70's/80's when they shut-off their 'intake valves'. Q: "What are the rights of the a/e/f?" An answer: the a/e/f has the right, behaviorally-based upon everything Life on Earth, common sense, compassion, and responsible living would most immediately suggest to a thinking-person, to pursue the maximum "bang for their buck". KC tickets ain't cheap (...and let's not even go near the table selling programs and t-shirts...it'll vacuum everything out of that pocketbook....those 8-page program books cost more per square-inch than rolling papers!)...and what's more, by virtue of the fact that KC/RF-music is quite complex, often emotionally-engaging, and mr. fripp appears to be someone with a brain that works; those who support the music (i have spoken with scores of KC-fans over the years) become involved in it actively. they feel a sense of accomplishment when they fool someone into believing that one of the instrumental cuts from Red is an unreleased song by late-Black Flag, and hence, 'turn someone on' to KC. they may be musicians who, developmentally, attach significance to mr. fripp's music and were brought-up by parents who taught them to thank people for gifts. they may be folks who feel they achieved some sort of epiphany through immersion in ideas relating to/proceeding from mr. fripp's music/writings. maybe, they saw him nearby and, as politely as they were able, approached him to say a few kind words. in this world, we do give strangers audience. mr. fripp would surely listen to a stranger alerting him that his hat was on fire. why not suffer through a few moments of sincere compliment? i observed for my partner, last night, that three different people had told her they loved her during the preceding 20 minutes. i asked her whether she was aware that very few people enjoy such a frequency of positive communication. Q: "What do you personally, as an a/e/f[,] expect of your artists/Robert Fripp[*/or anyone]?" An answer: i do not, personally, expect anything more from an artist/RF than art/musical product. i do not know the artist/RF in any way other than that which can be, usually inaccurately, inferred from examination of the artifact/commercial product; and i do not expect to meet the artist/RF, so therefore, do not have any personal social expectations lying-in-wait. *if, i were to find myself face-to-face with any human being (whether at an expensive rock concert, or in a convenience store), i would expect them to present behavior which did not threaten, degrade, or invalidate my existence. i would expect them to choreograph their own conduct based upon their needs, and communicate that to me in a way which did not threaten, degrade, or invalidate my existence. if they could not talk, for whatever reason, i would understand. this is me. i will not, as a result of what mr. fripp has communicated to the world regarding his human expectations, approach mr. fripp if the opportunity ever presents itself. <<<< >>>> if and when a stranger approaches me, it is likely that either my hat is on fire, or they have experienced my art. my art is not designed to insult. it is free of/does not encourage anger. in its public form, it is Inclusive; 'walking-the-walk', if you will, in terms of being a vehicle for my philosophies regarding Life on Earth and human possibilities. because i move through the world in as mindful a state as ability and health permit, i am seldom 'caught off-guard' by elements near me. in so living, i find little need for social fear or apprehension. i am in-the-moment and nimble enough to successfully influence the vast majority of ones which require disarming. most people are. being an artist; really spending a life doing little more than making things/making things happen, has never conferred any sense of having additional rights to me. for example, i've never felt ethically justified, for any reason, to invalidate a person's existence by ignoring them completely when they initiated conversation. certainly, i have truncated conversations when the moment required me to. but, and mr. fripp may differ with me here, i have always sought to leave those i meet/those who take it upon themselves to meet me with a positive impression. why? perhaps, through word-of-mouth, somewhere down the line, i will actually benefit from having so done. perhaps the profoundly boring sod, parroting the same old gush, exhaling stale beer breath and flecks of snack, may one day pull me from an automobile accident, or be in the 'right place at the right time' in some other way. it serves no one's aim to create a hostile impression. in discussing these thoughts with friends yesterday, i heard a pleasant anecdote. steve blake, who owns Toad Hall Studios in Massachusetts, told me that his son wanted to go to a Monkees concert a few years ago, and that steve (who grew-up watching the tv show) did so. while there, he saw michael nesmith (the tall one who wore the knit hat) minding his own business off to one side of the stage. steve, still a Monkees-fan, really felt it important to share something with him. what he said to mr. nesmith was this: "I've always enjoyed your music very much. This is my son, Geoffrey. When he was a baby, he had terrible colic and the only thing which helped him fall asleep was your acoustic album. I just wanted to thank you." sincerely, Bret Hart/HipWorks Productions ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:26:13 -0500 From: lisaw at weightman dot com (L. Wetherby) Subject: Answers to RF [today i serve merely as amanuensis -- these comments are from my ol' thrakker, chris. lisa] RE: The relationship between enthusiast and musician: Mutual auditory delectation! If either is not there because they dig the music, something's wrong. RE: Rights of the fan: To buy, listen, attend or NOT to buy, listen or attend. "Rights" are irrelevant to artistic expression. RE: Obligations of the enthusiast: Appreciation of what is presented -- if one doesn't LIKE the music in the first place, why listen at all? RE: Personal expectations of an artist: Adherence to their vision -- in short, THEIR music. RE: Personal expectations of Fripp: That he continue to make HIS music -- and accept my financial support for his efforts. Chris. Lisa Wetherby * The Weightman Group (215) 977-1820 (direct) * 100 Penn Square East (215) 977-1850 (fax) * Philadelphia, PA 19107 lisaw at weightman dot com The Weightman Group/Public Relations Team ------------------------------ From: Doug Mitchell Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 14:09:29 -0800 Subject: RF Questions I'd like to respond to the Frippster's questions as posted to ET 328. As a preface, a couple of points: 1. These were actually pretty tough question. None of these answers came right off the top of my head. 2. I have deliberately avoided mentioning any other band or performers as a means of illustrating points. I thus hope to avoid the all-too-common responses like "how can you mention band X in the same breath as band Y" and "how could you overlook performer Z's contribution to so-and-so". I find this kind of thing irrelevant to the topics at hand. 3. All of this stuff is totally subjective, of course, so these are personal opinions and I'd be very surprised if anyone agreed with any of them. Onward: > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the > audience / enthusiast/ fan and the musician? The musician is the person who's expressing something in performance. The audience, if they're lucky, are affected by the attempted expression. It's very rare that what the audience actually experiences has anything to with what the musician is feeling (and trying to express), but I think it happens once in a great while. I think we're all lucky - performers and audiences alike - if the audience feels *something* - almost anything - as a result of the performance. On another level, the musician is the one who's fortunate enough, at the time of the performance, to be a channel for the muse. The audience sits and witnesses this sometimes amazing and mystifying phenomenon. > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Oh, the usual civil courtesies. Not to get puked on. Not to get hit with flying bottles and other projectiles. If enough of the audience seems to agree that the show is of an appropriate type, the members of the audience also have a right to some semblance of quiet during the performance. This last one is the most problematic - in some shows, quiet during the performance is clearly not to be expected, and anyone who yells at others to be quiet is a self-righteous fool. But at other shows, when "most" people really want to be quiet, then I think that everyone *should* be quiet. A tough call, and I've been to way too many shows when the audience by no means had a consensus on this issue. > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the > audience / enthusiast / fan? See above response. In addition, I think that if the performers are attempting a sincere and serious performance, then it is the audience's obligation to treat the performers with respect, and attention, and quiet. If the performers are just goofing off, or are trying to create an atmospere conducive to partying and dancing and so forth, then I don't think the audience has any responsibilty to the performers other than common courtesy. > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan > expect of your artists? Well, at this point, I have to bring up the dichotomy between artistry and entertainment. On the artistic level, all I hope for from the performer is that they attempt to treat the muse with respect. I don't *expect* anything. If a performer is up there, not for purposes of serving the muse, but to entertain and get paid, I don't consider this a big sin or anything; let's move on to the next point, which is: Some shows are more in the line of "entertainment" or "theatre" than pure music or artistry. I do not make a judgment call here; I've been to many musically so-so shows which were great theatre and which were lots of fun. I generally prefer a show with emphasis on the musical artistry rather than on theatricality, but that's just a personal preference. Now actually a lot of shows are some combination of the two ("artistry" and what I'll call "theatre"). Unfortunately, another factor comes into play here - the fact that concerts are a business, and money changes hands when "fans" go to shows. When a *lot* of money changes hands, then I think, on a purely practical level, the audience has a right to expect some semblance of professionalism from the performers. Certainly, if a performer charges a large sum of money for tickets, and gives an unprofessional, disorganized, insincere show, then the audience has every right to feel cheated, and should "vote with their dollars", so to speak, the next time this performer comes to town. By not going to the show, that is. I parenthetically note here that King Crimson's last performance in my town, Seattle, certainly fell into the category of shows in which the audience had a right to expect a reasonable degree of professionalism, due to the fact that the tickets were rather pricey. This is, I realize, an unfortunate result of a six-piece band touring with lots of equipment, and playing at dazzling halls like the Paramount. Of course, Crimson delivered in spades and everyone got their money's worth, to say the least...:-) > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Oh, just for him to go on being his usual Frippish self, if that's what he wants. --dpm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:03:34 -0500 (EST) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Answers for RF It's interesting that Mr. Fripp has come out and directly asked his audience to define thier relationship. It seems to me fairly similar to a romantic relationship in nature, i.e. the audience is free at any time to leave you for another performer; the performer free at any time to seek a new audience. If there could be a completely open and honest sense of trust on both sides, maybe that would be ideal, but it seems all kinds of expectations and baggage from previous relationships can get in the way. What rights do I have, having paid my hard-earned money? To enjoy the music any way I like, and the right to stop buying such if it no longer suits me. What rights do you have? The right to make the music you want the way you want. So far, our "relationship" has been a healthy one for a little over twenty years - familiar enough to keep it inviting, enough surprises to keep it fresh. I read an interview with Paul Newman once in which he said "The only thing a performer owes his audience is a good performance". I think that makes a great deal of sense. I find it amazing that people writing here would attempt to judge RF as an rude person because of whatever anecdotal stories they have about what they perceive as a personal rebuff. People often assume they have personal relationships to public figures - why I don't know. I wouldn't assume a personal relationship with the guy behind the music I love any more than I would the guy who fries my veggie-burgers. Which is to say, I'm not likely to go trodding back in the kitchen during the lunch rush to try to shake the guy's hand... How do you, RF, best utilize ET to fulfill your aims? In a commercial sense, I'm here primarliy to keep abreast of what's coming up, so for me personally, I'd love a steady stream of news about what's on the horizon for both KC and its individual members (which I more or less already get). I've never weighed in on the "why does Fripp do this, etc" debate because it always seemed fairly obvious that he does what he feels he either needs or wants to, but I think this post illuminates the age-old question, "Why does Fripp always sit down while playing?": >(Bill Bruford is quoted as saying) "Life for me is a series of asses that I >played behind. Adrian Belew has got a very nice ass, slim. John Wetton's >is a little bigger. Jon Anderson's is very small. Nice legs, lousy ass. >It's a series of asses." Clearly, RF is a bit reluctant to give BB such an open opportunity to critique his ass... Keep up the good work, Ken R ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:49:05 -0800 From: nomad at netrover dot com Subject: A brief message to Robert Fripp Hi Robert! All I expect from you, is to keep on doing what you do. What's that you ask??? Amaze me, time after time, by breaking creative musical barriers within your soundscapes, frippertronics, & thrakerry upon every release you present to us from DGM. That's all!!! Simple isn't it?! Well, you make it sound soooo simple when I get a new R.F. release in my hands. You amaze me every single time. I know it must be very difficult to perform this musical task, especially when many an asshole on this list DEMAND these things from you. I'm just encouraging you to do what you do, NOT demanding. Enough said. Thanks for all the great music over the years Robert. JULIAN "Ranting Man" BELANGER(CJAM 91.5 FM-"Elastic Rock" Program)CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:45:50 -0800 (PST) From: "David G. Dixon" Subject: Reply to Robert Dear Robert (c/o ET): This is my relationship to you: I listen (sometimes intently) to your music, and I (sometimes) enjoy it. Your relationship to me: Virtually none, although we do share one or two common acquaintances. What do I expect of you: Nothing. What should you expect of me: In the event that I wish to listen to your music, coin. Finally, I am grateful to you for providing me with some very interesting and intelligent music over the years. I am also grateful to you for introducing me to the writings and ideas of George Gurdjieff and John G. Bennett, which have become a permanent fixture in my worldview. All the best, Dave Dixon Vancouver, BC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:55:20 -0500 From: bruce higgins Subject: RF Questions I think Our Hero is getting a bit high-fallutin' with all this stuff about responsibilities, obligations, expectations... I don't know if this makes any sense, but I read what everybody else had to say, now it's my turn. Is my relationship with a musician truly any different than, say, with that with a clerk at a grocery store? Is there something more that I "owe" a guitar player than I do the person behind the deli counter? I'm not certain, beyond the basic confines of the social contract. Be polite, each of us do our best to do what is expected of us in the circumstance, and get on with life. Certainly, the artist has a wider range of options about how to proceed - RF can hang up a sign "Performance Tonight" and can elect whether to perform soundscapes, Crafty material or Crimson monstrosities. If I ask the guy behind the deli counter for a pound of Havarti, he'd better not start improvising ;-) I don't know, Robert. You create/perform what you want or need to do, and I'll choose whether or not to listen (tho, I'll certainly listen once ;-) . I don't see that there is much more to it than that. B___ p.s. I do agree with the fellow who said that the band is obliged to provide good audio quality, especially when the music is as complex as that rendered by the double-trio. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:28:09 -0600 From: Jeff Leith Subject: RF Questions i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? What it _should_ be is one of the free market variety. If I like it, I buy it in the form of concert tickets and recordings. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? None. It is a happy accident that the fan has discovered music he likes and can access. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The same as the non-fan, to refrain from infringing on the rights of others. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? Nothing more than what is indicated in ii and iii. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? See i, ii, iii, and iv. Robert Fripp and King Crimson do not owe their audiences anything, except in the case of a prepaid transaction, as in the case of a concert ticket. In that case, the audience is owed a performance of reasonable length and perceptibility or a refund of the ticket price. If the audience member is unsatisfied with the quality of the performance, the only recourse is to not buy another ticket. ! -- Jeff Leith: Electronics Engineer, EMGT Network Administrator 223 Engineering Management Rolla MO 65409-0370 (573) 341-6058 http://www.umr.edu/~jeffmon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:08:41 -0500 (EST) From: "M. S. AtKisson" Subject: RF questions One Night of Surf Rock (and the Fripp makes sense) Rather than interleave my philosophizing with RF's questions, I'd like to do what I like best -- tell a brief, illustrative story. Last week I went to a night of surf rock (yep, all surf rock). There were 4 bands, of which I saw the last three. The first band was doing 'spy surf', all dressed in suits with white shirts, black ties, hats, and matching shoes. Very James Bond. 45 minutes of it. The crowd liked it, but largely didn't pay close attention. The next band was doing 'mod surf', all dressed in black turtlenecks with '80s Duran Duran haircuts. Very spaghetti western. 45 minutes of it. The crowd liked it, but largely didn't pay close attention. The last band was doing...well...it was surf rock, and the band looked as if they might actually know how to wax a board without getting sand on it. No cliche's, really, just solid and interesting music with its feet firmly in the genre. The crowd who thought they were bogus and uncool for not dressing alike took the last subway home; the crowd who loved it stayed and clearly listened So my basic answer to RF's questions starts with a question: Is the musician wanting to make music or money? (Put ego-food under money.) If it's the latter, go buy your matching Ray-Bans and Chuck Taylor's, and give a danceable beat to "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." If it's the former, pick up your guitar or your sticks, and see who stays to listen. Peg. Rampant Boosterism: The band in question is the Derangers, playing Mama Kin in Boston in February. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:47:40 -0600 (CST) From: QUEST Subject: RF Questions On Tue, 13 Jan 1997, Fripp wrote: > 2. Stop arguing about Fripp's attitude towards you, etc., and acknowledge > he's the greatest guitarist in the world. I just thought I'd mention that I'm pretty sure this was a kidding remark, possibly just Fripp feigning a bloated ego, and therefore not to be taken seriously. (In ET #330, it seems a few people misinterpreted his intent.) Of course, I could be wrong, but it seems highly unlikely. Damon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:06:20 -0500 From: John Roi Subject: RF Questions Hi RF, First, I want to say thanks for the great music you have provided over the years. I have been a fan since 1969 & listening to the esoteric music of KC has always given me a sense of being part of a select, savvy, sophisticated segment of the population. As an artist you have enriched my life & made this galaxy a cooler place in which to reside. Enough head-feeding! Now to briefly respond to your 5 queries: 1) The nature of the relationship between musician & fan is strictly professional. We should not assume that we are automatically buds or connected in some way or that the musicians owe us any more than the 2 hours or so of entertainment that we contracted for by purchasing a ticket. 2) Our rights as an audience: To expect an equally good level of performance from show to show or venue to venue with no abridgements or lack of energy or enthusiasm on any given night. Of course, I realize that this is probably not humanly possible but as close as you can come! We (audience) do NOT have the right to impose ourselves into your personal lives, or expect to hang out together, or dictate which direction your music should take or who your lead singer should be:). Of course, as a celeb., you sacrifice some of your social anonymity but thats just one of the prices of success. 3) Our responsibilities: To give the artist common respect & courtesy & in no way detract from the musician's ability to perform or to interfere with the enjoyment of our fellow concert-goers. In other words, don't be an a__hole! 4) Personal expectations: I expect a certain degree of evolution over the years. As we, the audience, grow ever wiser & more sophisticated so too, must the musical material & performance evolve. In other words, I expect a fresh, dynamic progression rather than a stale, static (going through the motions) type of performance. I think KC has done well in this area! 5) RF, what do I expect of you? I know it can't be much fun to have 3000 or so critics watching every note you play & every word you say etc. (the blessing & the curse of the Internet)! I just want you to continue to provide me with as much music as you can, for as long as you can, as long as you still enjoy it! I know that when you are 80, your fingers won't dance all over the frets anymore but until then I look forward to the opportunity to help keep you financially secure by purchasing your works. I will always gladly support the artist who enriches my life! Oh! One more thing. If you could perform "One More Red Nightmare" during your next tour, you would really meet my greatest expectations!!! Thanks, John John Roi astropod at snip dot net "Live Long & Prosper" ------------------------------ From: oracular at webtv dot net (David Denis) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:25:14 -0500 Subject: rf reply The only thing Fripp owes us is great albums and great performances. Although i wish he would buy my cd (Oracular).Beggars cannot be chosers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 22:40:30 From: drj_saro Subject: RE: Elephant Talk Digest #330 & #331 after reading _all_ of the postings regarding Fripp's Questions, i have a question....... everyone who has responded so far seems to indicate they are in agreement with the notion that the audients have a responsibility to one another of what i have referred to as 'common courtesy'; so WHO KEEPS YELLING FOR "FREEBIRD" AT ALL OF THESE SHOWS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? *------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro Date: 1/24/97 Time: 10:40:32 PM This message was sent by Chameleon *------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 04:14:26 UT From: "Efun Moyiwa" Subject: RF questions Before I join the fray and try my hand at a response to Mr. Fripp's queries, I would like to thank Mr. Fripp for asking questions that might help us all to consider the actual terrain that we enter when we participate in the live 'performance'. i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? That seems to be defined by both sets of participants: the performers and the audience. At best meaningful interaction or dialogue occurs, where both parties create a resonance that surpasses the passive 'judging' or mere cheering or booing on the part of the audience which reduces the exchange to its most vulgar elements. The performers, on the other hand, are inspired to new heights by the obvious communication going on and performance becomes more than mere 'finishing the gig' or 'they really liked us tonight' terrain. This is purposefully vague as the events of this interaction pretty much define themselves. Probably this is best acheived at small venues where the interchange can be more intimate. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The audience as well as the performers have very few 'rights' and to expect any is presumptive on the part of either the performers or the audience. Either can have hopes or aspirations but neither should be expected to 'live up to them'. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Again, very few if any. But this question forces us to confront the fact that we often feel that the performers are somehow responsible to *us*, which they aren't. But our response can greatly affect the nature of the performance. Also, we might examine why we go to the performance and whether liking or disliking a performance is enough, but that is not a responsibilty of the audience to the band, but a responsibility to ourselves. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? Very little. But I might add that I am often pleasantly surprised and highly appreciative of Mr. Fripp and King Crimson. The caliber of work, integrity, discipline and their abilty to explore new terrain without abandoning themselves to the fear of 'losing their audience' and being reduced to a cliched formula while retaining their adherence to basic principles. It is always a joy. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Nothing. But I am regularly impressed with his work and his attitude. He has often risked much to bring his work out in the ways he has felt best. While I haven't always agreed with his choices, I can always understand his intent and have never been given cause to be disappointed with his credibility or integrity. And that is probably more than I can expect from most people I have interacted with, personally or from afar. When I have performed I have had a tendency to 'hide' and 'shy away' from audiences. Personally, his was not out of a sense of arrogance or self conciousness but I had something I needed to do and didn't feel 'schmoozing' with the audience would help that. Often, I felt many wanted something from me that I could never really give them by this kind of interaction and that my performance would communicate the most important things in a much better way. Thank you Mr. Fripp for making me think. Again. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #337 ********************************