Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #335 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 335 Wednesday, 29 January 1997 SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part four) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: Reply to Fripp questions (long) Hello Robert, (and ETalkers if these are posted to the list) We've been invited to reply to a set of questions. Here's my reply. i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast/ fan and the musician? Ideally, this is a symbiotic relationship. The real world usually falls rather short of this. Some independent bands, local music heros, and a few "world class" bands come close to this relationship. The Grateful Dead come to mind, and so does King Crimson, IMHO. Through luck and persistance (GD) or through effort and study (KC) they have both achieved a measure of independence from the "star-maker machinery" (J.Mitchell) that encourages the worst impulses of both artist and audience. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? I believe that the audience at a musical performance has the right to: a) Punctuality. The band should be there on time, barring disaster. b) Good sound. The technology is available to provide a decent level of fidelity and volume in almost any venue. The band is responsible for hiring people capable of providing this support. c) The band is responsible for providing a (hopefully) inspired and (at least) professional performance. I don't want to pay to see some stoned jerk having the time of his/her life. And I have. I didn't like it. (E-mail me if you want the whole story. I'll name names.) d) The band is responsible for providing "quality" recorded "product", as much as I loathe that term. Comes from working in a CD store. By "quality", I mean that it should reflect, as closely as possible, the artist's intent. If the sound is distorted and ugly, I want a high-fidelity/resolution recording of an ugly distorted sound. Don't get me wrong, I like ugly and distorted, where appropriate. I like clear and lyrical, too, where appropriate. I'll admit that sometimes artists and audiences don't agree on "appropriate". I suppose that one's favorite artists become favorites when both agree on what's appropriate most of the time. Performance is also a "quality" issue. With a band like KC, very high standards of musicianship have been set. Having established such a standard, it would be unacceptable to be offered anything less. If you're a Madonna fan you expect a professional level of dance performance. The Misfits, you expect volume, energy, anger, and funny hair. e) The audience has a right to be acknowleged for their support of their favorite artists. In KC, this responsibility seems to fall, for the most part, on Adrian in concert situations. (BTW, Robert, thank you for point 5.) A few words between songs, a "Thank you!" on mic, a wave, a smile. This does -not- extend to the artist's personal life. Sure, you just want "a minute of (artist's name here)'s time." So does each of the other 5,000 people in the crowd. Can't be done. Besides, how many times can you hear "you're great/you stink" before it becomes meaningless, or you become a hopeless egotist/trembling wreck. f) An opportunity to buy a T-shirt. 8^) iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? a) The first responsibility is that of attention, particularly when music is the primary objective of the performer. This is perhaps not as important when a band's objective is more social than musical. b) Enthusiasm, as in "we respond to..". The audience has a responsibility to encourage the artist to his/her best effort. Be enthusiastically quiet where appropriate, loud where appropriate; i.e. between songs, please. For other bands, dance where appropriate, spit where appropriate, etc. c) The audience member is responsible for his/her behavior. I don't want to be distracted by someone who is obviously enjoying the concert from some other planet, and letting all know what a good time he/she is having every moment of the show. For a band like KC, there is so much going on, in a musical sense, that distractions like this actually rob me of experiencing the music. Do/take/smoke what you like, but save it for -between- songs. Or go see Funkadelic. Noisy enthusiasm would be appropriate in that situation. (Yeah!!!) d) The enthusiast/fan is responsible for providing, to the best of their ability: respect and support for the artist and their work. an enviornment that encourages and promotes the artist's best work/effort/inclinations. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? I, of course, expect your best work/effort. With KC, that has come to include a certain approach to making music, involving challenging meters/harmonic structures, killer musicianship, risk-taking, inspired performances (uh oh). I expect access to your work, recorded and in concert. (Please, sir, I want some more. - Dickens) I expect some acknowledgement of my support/enthusiasm.(See above.) Here's where it gets tricky. People have differing views of what constitutes "acknowledgement". If a KC concert is a "hot date", the audience is a partner. I'm a musician; I understand, from both sides, that a good night can be as intense as good sex. (Hmmm, what would Freud say?) In any such intense relationship, feelings run high. If one's lover rebuffs one right after orgasm, one can be hurt, deeply. This works both ways. A crude comment from the crowd (or even indifference) can be a real spoiler. Hence, Adrian's post (if it was him) and the typical "I met Fripp, he blew me off, he's a jerk." (Robert, we met briefly at the Easter Sunday Frippertronics lecture in Toronto. My date [statuesque brunette w/long hair] and you discussed the intersection of dance/children/Frippertronics. You were a perfect gentleman. I grinned a lot.) Maybe this is stretching things a bit, as almost everyone in a given audience has never "met" anyone in the band, let alone established a personal relationship with any of them, but at the height of said date, we're both right there, togeather. I feel that both parties would benefit from being a little more attentive to the feelings (and to the "aim") of the other. A little politesse might be appropriate for all. But then, I don't know what the "aim" is so I might be full of hot air. For me, Robert, your occasional postings go a -long- way toward meeting my expectations of acknowledgement. And a column in Musician wouldn't hurt either. Having brought up the subject, Robert, perhaps you would explain your "aim" and how your behavior might further it. Perhaps the "Team" can assist, even if only by giving you the space you seem to need. Of course, a mystery will certainly encourage chatter, chit-chat... v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Best work. (See above) Access to work. (See above) Acknowledgement. (See above) Some information concerning your "aim". We're certainly involved at some level. Perhaps we can assist in furthering it. Or perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm most curious, though. And, I'm with Adrian. One of those tilted, searing solos you do so very well would be most welcome once in a while. You can do it for Sylvian, why not KC? I don't -expect- it, however. Finally, thank you for those 38 years as a guitarist. They've been a source of great pleasure and inspiration for me. Most sincerely, J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" The preceding material is my opinion alone and does not represent that of anyone in my vicinity. P.S. What is the first line of the chorus in "Thela Hun Ginjeet"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:29:07 -0500 (EST) From: murkie Subject: answers for fripp just when i was about to abandon et for a lack of any real useful information... a post from bob! >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the > audience/enthusiast/fan and the musician? "vampiric" is probably too strong a term for most, but it's the only one that i can think of right now. it's just that it's always unclear who is sucking harder on whose jugular. it's a simbiotic relationship; neither can't exist without the other... (ah shit, i'm just babbling here...) >ii) What are the rights of the audience/enthusiast/fan? to demand the world and accept anything we get (take it or leave it, of course!) >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience/ > enthusiast/fan? to appreciate when the world has been delivered and understand when it can not >iv) What do you personally, as an audient/enthusiast/fan expect of > your artists? removal from the "now" for a small amount of time. >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient/enthusiast/fan > expect of Robert Fripp? the unexpected on a regular basis. this has been delivered consistently for which i thank you profusely. thanks, murkie p.s. - since i know you're reading this, i'd just like to tell you i'm glad i didn't give up and finally (after years of searching) got a copy of "sacred songs" ===================================================================== = = = M a r k C h r i s t e n s e n = = Cramped Quarters Studio / Jasperpottamus Music Publishing = = internet: murkie at middlebury dot edu = = "The world isn't flat. It's actually +6 dBa at 5.7 kHz." = = = ===================================================================== ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 20:46:38 -0500 Subject: Response To Robert Fripp's Questions. RF>> i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast RF>> / fan and the musician? This relationship is something that is personal to each fan. Since each fan brings their own expactions to the event, it will always have a variable impact on each fan's enjoyment/perception. To me music is more than the performer, it is the event in itself. RF>> ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? My right is to choose which music I listen to and to not listen to. As a particpant in an event I am right in behaving in a manner that is appropriate for the situation. RF>> iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / RF>> enthusiast / fan? I would believe the responsibilities would be similar to those of movie goers. Don't behave in a manner that would ruin the event for others. However the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" rule applies here. If the event warrants audience interaction then by all means go ahead. RF>> iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your RF>> artists? Music! RF>> v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of RF>> Robert Fripp? I don't know, what do you expect of me :) Les Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:40:03 -0800 From: Jeffrey Lyon Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #328 > 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these > questions: > > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast > / fan and the musician? > > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Law generally delineates my rights. If I pay for a concert ticket, I expect reasonable efforts of the band to perform. > > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / > enthusiast / fan? In this case, "common courtesy" needs to supplement the law. I will accept the offers of the artist (autographs, back stage passes), but understand that "no means no." (Sounds like dating.) > > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your > artists? > I expect the artist to contribute what they wish. I'm the final, and personal, arbiter of whether I like the work or not. Hopefully, the artist would not contribute solely because I would like more. > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? > Thanks for asking. Ron Lyon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:51:45 -0500 (EST) From: Roberto Galvez Subject: relationship artist/fans Robert Fripp (who is he ? :-) ) asked this : >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? > >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? > >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? > >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your >artists? > >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? I think this is an excellent topic from RF .We fans always forget the human side of the artist,and we think that they belong to us. I remember that a friend of mine was truly dissaponted because RF didn't sign his Cd's ,and he stopped to listen to KC records. Me,I love the music,I remember beautiful moments (and other not so beautiful) in which Crimson music saved my life .(Fallen Angel was my relief in many occasions)but this doesn't mean that Fripp himself will be my psychiatrist or my best private friend. Obviously it would be nice to shake our idol's hands but we have to leave them in peace and let them work (ie, record more music or do a good show). Peter Hammill (again) criticized this relatioship artist-fans in his song Energy Vampires (from Future Now): 'Excuse me while I suck your blood excuse me when I phone you I've got every one of your records,man, doesn't that mean I owe you ? ...Oh sure,I long ago decided to make myself an exponent of the public posession of the private obsession zone.' Thanks for the posting,Robert ! Roberto. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:09:05 +0100 From: hecker Subject: Answers to RF's questions 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these questions: >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? I think, in general, the relationship is complementary, but in a certain sense. I can best illustrate this by using an example reported by W.A. Mozart as part of a letter to his father after a successful Paris orchestral concert. He writes that, knowing that the Paris audience was used to opening Allegro's with full orchestra and full volume, he made the opening bars of one of the Paris symphonies in a way to begin with the two violins alone in very low volume, and the Tutti breaking into it all of a sudden, ten or twenty bars "too late". Mozart then reports on the audience's response which was highly irritated at the beginning, and then, when the Tutti came in, they clapped their hands, and went almost crazy. He concludes by saying (in my own translation): "I had a good cup of ice-cream, and went home." I think the musician can only be popular as long as he relates to the listening habits of the audience. But in order to be more than just popular, but inspiring, there needs to be this irritating component which (not necessarily, but very often) results out of a challenge to listening habits. So, the relationship is not just complementary, but the musician refers to listening habits and at the same time transcends them. If he did not, we would not be experiencing anything other, when going on a concert, than we already have got on a daily basis, in our subways, in the aisle of the supermarket, in front of the TV screen. >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? I do not share the view that by using his hard-earned pay for buying a ticket for a musical performance of any value, someone gets entitled to receive any pre-defined "message" , emotional support or whatever. Well, we do have a right that comes with our tickets. And that is, to be part of something that will develop. If it's predetermined, it's dead. I remember Gidon Kremer playing the Brahms d-minor sonata once in Hamburg. This is a piece I thought I had known pretty well. And I just could not believe how he played it. I virtually had to understand every phrase as a new event. This was one of the best musical performances I ever attended. Let's compare this to buying a ticket to a demolition derby / sex movie. Anyone who does this, knows, they're going to see pre-defined forms of destruction/ sex, they want it, and, look what happens, they GET it. Thus, there's not too much of information in such systems, anyway. So, in this sense: where is your money's worth? >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? When I attend performances of the Berlin Philharmonic (which I sometimes do because my violin teacher plays in the orchestra) I very often wonder what these dressed-up people really want. When listening to the pieces of talk you catch up in the intermission, you won't get the impression too often of people being deeply moved, impressed or even changed by what they had been listening to a few minutes ago. It is ridiculous. People often seem uninformed about, and yes, even uninterested in music. So what I would think is important for this artist/audience relationship to develop, is that the audience brings a mixture of interest, opennes and information. Because otherwise, the Mozart example could never have happened that way. In this case, people obviously were (a) informed (they knew how an opening Allegro "should" sound), (b) interested and open (they clapped their hands and acknowledged the moment of irritation). >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? see the Kremer example >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? I attended the last part of your Soundscapes installations in Queen Elizabeth Hall in spring 96. Soundscapes are very often irritating, but they can be harmonic and peaceful as well. What strikes me in Soundscapes is that they very often recall some kind of harmony which we all have come to know from earlier music (not to say: from earlier life). In those moments, consonant chords that tend to form out of nowhere (Threnody for a Soul in Torment, also: transition between Real Side and The Last Three Minutes Part One) seem to sound even sweeter and more harmonic than anything we ever heard in those "classical" times when we used to have such chords in a more obligatory sense. It's an effect that you often experience in Schubert's music, too, and it is at the same time relieving and sad. I could not tell how fast the time went by on this evening in QEH, time had almost no other sense than the one defined by the music. My mother was with me at the performance, and she too was absolutely captured, in spite of the fact that she does not listen to very much other than "classical" music otherwise. I can only say that I have had experiences like this through and by means of your music, and I hope there may be more to come. Ulrich von Hecker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:14:18 +0000 From: "Mr. Music Head" Subject: As a member of the Audience... Organization: internetMCI Dear Fellow ETers... I just recently subscribed to ET because, like so many of you, I am intrigued and fascinated by the music of King Crimson. I am 18 years old, and the only reason I tell you this is because some of you might find it interesting that someone from the so-called "Generation X" (or Y...or whatever we are), appreciates the music and spirit of King Crimson and Robert Fripp. I was fortunate enough to experience King Crimson first hand while they were touring with the H.O.R.D.E. festival in New York at Downing Stadium. Although they only played for forty-five minutes, I must say that they were the most thrilling and exciting forty-five minutes of my musical life. I have never seen, witnessed, or heard a group of musicians perform with so much spirit and enthusiasm. The experience really opened my eyes and ears as to what musicians should behave like. As a hopeful musician myself, I see more and more clearly each time I perform, the sincere need for the audience to participate as fully as the musicians participate. I truly believe that the reason King Crimson performed so well when I saw them, is that I was there to help them feel the spirit. I was standing in the front row of the crowd and I saw Adrian's face look at mine and saw Pat Mastellato look at me and feel the energy that was radiating through me...I truly believe that I had something to do with King Crimson being King Crimson on that particular day. This, then, I believe, is what the audience's responsibility is: To be in touch with the music so that your enjoyment and spirit is being conveyed to the performers so much so that you, yourself, become one with the music...I hope everyone will excuse the babblings of a somewhat idealistic 18 year old, but I just felt the need to respond to Robert's posting and I hope that he would agree with me, but I would truly love to hear what he has to say concerning this subject. Thank you to all of you who run ET for giving me the space to air my beliefs...Any comments, concerns, criticisms, and compliments are most certainly welcome. ---John Galgano - jgalgano at internetMCI dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 97 16:30 MST From: tpayne at rmi dot net (thomas payne) Subject: response to RF > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience /= enthusiast / fan and the musician? Clearly, there is more than one type of relationship, ranging from casual listener to guitar wannabe to reverential supplicant. I suspect that there is also a morbid element of "Indy 500" fan out there: can the performers actually pull off the musical feat without crashing and burning? > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To be able to appreciate the performance. This broad statement has implications of value, music appreciation, and consideration of the rights of others and of the performers. Unfortunately, since the audience members have different understandings of their relationship with the musician, it is often difficult for these rights to be realized. (Certainly there are those who consider it their right to yell during the quiet passages and/or to jump around like assholes in front of those of us who are there to LISTEN, WATCH, and APPRECIATE. I would dearly love to attend a KC performance in Japan for this reason=85) > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To not infringe upon the rights mentioned above, and to support the performers financially and via enthusiastic feedback and word-of-mouth promotion. > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of= your artists? Uncompromising creative excellence. I patronize very few artists because, at least in the world of rock, very few artists are willing to meet this expectation. The works of KC/RF, and of FZ, are thus prominent in my music collection. > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? To continue to set the standard for uncompromising musical and compositional achievement, and let the musical results speak for themselves. I also have a selfish wish for RF, which is let the current KC alignment continue to explore what they have unearthed, at least for a few more albums=85 Thomas Payne Pueblo, Colorado USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:14:45 -0500 From: Steve Earley Organization: Sojourn Systems Ltd. Subject: reply to rob Dear Robert, In resonse to your questions; i) The nature of the relationship is communication. ii) The audience / enthusiast / fans' rights are to be who they are in the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. iii) The responsibility of an audient / enthusiast / fan is to remain open to all possibilities. To allow experience to develop as it will, rather than expecting (to the extent that they/ we are capable). Also to exhibit a bit of respect for our fellow humans. iv) I personally expect to receive a small (or larger) fragment of the artists' reality. v) From you Robert, I expect perseverance, dilligence, and fortitude (Frippitude....because it's obvious!!) My experience shows me that there are others out there that share, to some degree, my passion for glimpsing life as it is, in all it's twisted sweetness. Thanks for so very many moments, hours..... years of companionship and pleasure. What you have created, that I have witnessed, has spoken in kind of the extreme artistic essence that is my plain and mundane existance. Life itself IS artistic, the very personal perception of it is art. It takes a true ARTIST to find the form and bring it out to a communicable peice. This is what I feel you do....put yourself out here on the line for all of us to either caress with our acceptance and pleasure and understanding, or to smash with our being closed off and unavailable to you. Your strength is astounding. Thanks again for your discipline and love. Steve Earley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:35:38 -0500 From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Re: From Robert Fripp I don't often post, but here I go... (refer to the original post from the questionaire). 1. Sounds good, but you will have to play opposite James Woods who'll be Ade. 2. Nod. 3. i) From the perspective of an ET reader, it would seem that this relation- ship is faulty in that the fan usually perceives one which is overly personal and the musician sees one which is overly impersonal. To elaborate on the latter, you (the musician) must realize that your musical output touches us (the fan) at a personal level. That's why we often perceive the relationship as a personal thing, whether you intend this or not. Maybe it isn't even a relationship because the perception isn't a shared thing, but fans _think_ it is because there's no one telling them otherwise while they listen to the music. ii) This is simple because technically, rights are only limited by the laws enforced in our society: the musician has the right to make music, and the listener has the right to listen. Further, the musician has the right to profit from the music (make a living) and the listener has the right to buy the music, thus providing the profit. Everyone has the basic rights to privacy, speech, free will, movement, etc. iii) Respect the rights. iv) Personally I don't expect much. I *hope* for musical output of the same quality I have become used to in the past, the energy, musicmanship, original- ity, but I know I don't have any say in what the musician actually does. If I did, the music would not be as interesting and full of surprises as it is. I feel lucky to be able to buy the music, and I feel particularly lucky to be able to occasionally see a concert, but I try not to _expect_ anything. That's dangerous, and does not respect the rights. v) Again, "expect" I find a strong word. Although based on prior observation, I hope (am almost sure) Fripp's point No. 2) will remain intact. C'est Tout. If all this seems calculating, it's because it's in contrast with the usual things pop-culture encourages from its consumers. Madonna wants us to go nuts over everything she does. King Crimson is in sharp contrast to this trend, in the actual music and in its cultural niche. That's why I enjoy it so much. Sometimes this is not reflected in ET. Cheers, James C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:38 -0500 (EST) From: MARK dot KEEN at roche dot com Subject: Q & A for RF (I did it my way) Dear Robert, Well, I have to hand it to Toby Howard. Just about the time I'm getting bored with all of the inane information in his strange little electronic bathroom stall dedicated to King Crimson and am considering "unsubscribing" something interesting happens. Like you happen to write a missive indicating you have been lurking about in the background all along, reading the posts in Elephant Talk. Poor you! It's been dull going. I have learned a few interesting things about you; left-handed? probably. agoraphobic? doubtful, but likely shy of big "clueless" crowds. Dislike bright stage lights? who doesn't ! But I want to know more about you. Why? I have no idea but perhaps it is that I will better appreciate and understand your music. I live a perfectly full, reasonable, quiet life; wife, home, child, job. Why would I care to know about a 50 year-old Englishman who plays electric guitar and composes with a band that has only achieved "cult-level" record sales (but has also played on and produced albums of "higher visibility "and sales)? What would I like? I'd like you (and Toyah if possible) to drop by the house, meet my wife and child, play a couple of soundscapes, or better yet a couple of classical guitar pieces (Greg Lake said you were pretty good with Paganini, but that really isn't living room performance fare is it?). Afterward, we would have dinner and dessert (French chocolates for you, of course) perhaps a snifter or two of German Brandy and you could regale me with Crimson tour stories or tales of what Bowie and Gabriel are like to work with. Did Bowie get you drunk one night in Berlin during the recording of Heroes? What was the first Gabriel tour like, you behind the curtain? We would chat on late into the night. It's summertime and we are sitting in my very dark (no outside lights) garden. Suddenly, it's time for you to leave. I thank you, wish you a good night and spend the rest of my life telling the members of my old rock band (20 years since its demise) about the time I had Fripp over to the house. ------------------------------ Subject: re:From Robert Fripp Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 11:28:30 -0000 From: Tom Attix >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast/ fan and the musician? Hopefully, one of mutual interest/love (the music). Realistically, some love, some idol worship, some vicarious fantasy (think air guitar), some snob appeal (I like this music because it makes me look smart). This is definitely one of those questions that could provide some poor grad student with a nice 300 page paper. >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? On the business side, you pay your money and you get your show (notice I'm not saying anything about quality). What you may have a right to is the Artist's effort, hopefully he succeeds, but, on the other hand, anyone can have an off night. >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To please-shut-the-hell-up during the performance. To actually make an effort to listen to the music (they really only owe that to themselves, but...) and to hopefully enjoy it. >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? To actually play "Free Bird" when some idiot yells it out (just kidding and it wasn't me, really). But seriously, if you really love experimental/improvisational music, expectations are barriers. I can hope for a lot of things but by saying "expect", I am limiting your freedom (you owe me...). I always look at concert tickets as if they are lottery tickets (a possibility of riches). -Tom Attix ___________________________________________________________________________ attix at apple dot com ___________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:34:19 +1000 From: j dot keens at rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: artist and audience It is a sobering thought to KNOW that Robert Fripp is reading this electronic fan magazine. I am embarassed in retrospect by some of my comments - yours you can be embarassed by for yourselves. But his post has made me think about the relationship between a musician (or any artist)and their public, specifically as it relates to me. I think that the artists who I respect and admire the most are aesthetic leaders. Robert Fripp (and others like him) constantly move into new areas taking their fans with them. While I may not always like where he goes, as a true 'fan' I should look at his pathway and consider them and their meaning. I have been lucky enough to have been around, following Fripp since ITCotCK - an album which I bought from a friend, liked somewhat. No Pussyfooting followed, but I was not yet a fan. When my sister bought me LTiA I was converted - I sought out the back catalogue and have followed new releases ever since, and followed Fripp down various byways and bridlepaths. As with any fan I have my favourites - the LTIA period for me, with the discipline period my least favourite. But also as a fan I should expect and want what Robert Fripp delivers - I don't need another Red, the existing one is fine, though I enjoy the allusions to that period Crimson in the current albums. But one shouldn't be an unthinking fan - its by RF it must be good (though he hasn't disappointed me yet) - each new release must be savoured, thought about, the direction Fripp is taking considered. When artists cease to move, to change, then they lose my confidence. I still enjoy my Tull records for instance, but haven't been tempted very much by the new ones. Yes, I have changed too in my 26 years of heavy music buying, but an artist of Fripp's skill has taken me with him (a fripp swing or doowop band doesn't immediately sound appealing, but then again, I would try it). As for the artist as a person - they are an individual with the foibles and personality of an individual. I have never felt the need or desire to meet them on a one to one basis - what do you say: 'I think you're great' or 'love your music' are statements of such inanity that I wouldn't be surprised if people got pissed off and seemed rude at times. Not that I wouldnt accept an offer for an extended period to meet Fripp or anyone else in - its just I would be more nervous of meeting them than most people. In other words an artist is just like anyone else, just the fame and skill they have shown would put up a barrier. ANd live performances - well we don't get many down here, and I haven't been to one for ages. The cost versus the actual experience (bad acoustics etc) got me down. I am sure I would be disappointed by a KC concert - the wrong songs, in the wrong venue, with foul sound and an unappreciative audience. But if they ever came here, they ARE an act I would go to. But I would be disappointed it wasn't a Fripp soundscape concert. :) OK the end of a long rambling pots on a topic I am sure has generated loads of interest. And Robert, thanks for a sublime and exciting musical rollercoaster ride. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:28:01 -0500 From: Claude Girard Subject: The Frippian Chroniques (To Toby and the rest of the gang : Thanks for all the work, its appre- ciated. Merci.) _______________________________________________________________________ There is a golden rule in psychology that states that fantasies should not be realized! Maybe that is why I feel "uneasy" about recent postings by our favorite musicians, Adrian and Robert. Adrian's answer was an emotional adolescent response...fine with me. Robert's answer was.. well a Frippian response. (The readers will under- stand that the extreme sensitivity of my skin prevents me from further babbles against Mr Fripp in order not to get flamed!!) I feel more comfortable with the wacky, yet mature comments by B.Bru- ford about "his life behind asses!!!". :-) Mr Fripp, if every move in your career has an purpose, could you comment about your "borrowing" of I.McDonald's original melody for Cadence & Cas cade" knowned, after that, as Flight of the Ibis??? One final note: what about you Ian, grab a computer and give us the pleasure of your company! Claude, a fan since 1969...boy, that makes me feel old ;-( ------------------------------ From: David Oskardmay - BSG Corporation Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:35:02 -0500 Subject: reply to Robert Yo Big Bob! Good to hear from you. I was kind of shocked to read that you actually read this entire digest. I know I don't! :-) Here are some answers to your questions. I'll keep it short. i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? This depends on the state of each--who the musician thinks (s)he is and who the audience think they are. At best, the musician and audience share a gift together where the normal societal boundaries separating them are momentarily lifted. There is the possibility in the musical relationship for a sort of shared religious experience, not one of idol worship of the musician, but more like a shared vision of the truth. Then there's the other side of the relationship, where we the audience function as the vampires and the musician is the prey. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The inalienable right to boogie! Actually, I'm going to pass on this and the next question. Haven't thought about it enough. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Off the top of my head, one responsibility is for the audience to be helpful to the musician in bringing about the musical experience. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? I expect them to make my life worth living. OK, maybe that's a bit much to expect this morning. I expect them to be committed to their art. I also expect them to play from the heart. For the artists whose work I enjoy, this seems to be a requirement. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? I expect unpredictable social behavior. I expect to hear RF sound like RF, but what I would like to hear is the totally unexpected. While one of the goals of KC is to roam into uncharted territory, KC generally sounds like KC and RF generally sounds like RF. So another expectation is to hear music unlike any I have ever heard before. Sometimes this expectation is met and sometimes not. One challenge is for KC and RF to continually reinvent themselves. Play me some reggae. Thanks for your work and have a nice day. david ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #335 ********************************