Elephant Talk #332 (as text)

25 January 1997

From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator)
Subject: latest additions to the "no thanks" list
1. The fascinating, stimulating and edifying Easy Money lyrics debate. I
   wish I could let it run forever, but, you know.

2. Bowie-album-related stuff. Alas.

3. The wonderful world of the tritone.

Best wishes to all

Date: 21 Jan 97 07:41:02 EST
Subject: from Robert Fripp
Thursday 16th. January, 1997.

Dear Team,

In ET 327 Matt Lincoln writes (8th. January):

"On August 25, 1996 I caught the KC show at Maryland with Vernon Reid
opening. During Vernon's set I noticed RF sitting by the soundboard. Wow, I
thought, I've really appreciated all this man has done for music (since
I've been a fan from way back when I went with my brother when I was nine
to buy "In The Court of ...") so I thought I would just say Thank You. I
waited until the applause died down from the last Vernon song and said to
RF, `Excuse me I would like to say..' but before I could start talking he
ran away. And not just moving away but RAN. Like he was afraid. (Kind of
like Sir Robin the Not So Brave RUNNING away from the Three Headed Beast in
the Holy Grail). I'm left thinking I am a fan of a person who dislikes
people, especially the ones who give him money for his music. He could've
said "please don't bother me", or "do not talk to me". Maybe if you talk to
RF you could express my apology as well as giving him the opportunity to
behave like a human and apologize to me as well. I've worked in the music
industry and met and dealt with people such as Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins,
Bono, Sting and others but none have ever RUN away from me. What was it, my


Firstly, Matt feels some umbrage at my response to him, and has given me
"the opportunity to behave like a human and apologize to" him. I apologise.

Secondly, Matt's letter raises several issues which I would be grateful if
he (and other readers) would address in response to my own recent posting
(ET 328, 13th. January, on King Crimson's 28th. birthday). My own letter
refers to readers expressing "opinions and judgements, often with some
heat, on the basis of a clearly developed sense of what they expect of the
artists they patronise; umbrage when these expectations are not met; with
clearly implied assumptions on the part of what the artist's position is /
should / might / can only be, and certainly is despite anything, in any
case, anyway, because I've bought my ticket with hard-earned pay and that
gives me rights".

My letter touches on assumption, expectation, negative reaction to
confounded expectation, and rights of the "consumer" in a commercial
culture. I didn't read Matt's letter until this morning and, given that, my
own lettter seems strangely prescient.

So, what does Matt assume, expect, how does he deal with his expectations
not being met, and how is his implicit / explicit demand for a response
from me, in a manner which he would find satisfactory, affected by him
having given me "money for (my) music"?

Whenever we form judgements, or draw opinions, from events it seems
reasonable, even necessary, that we take into account the circumstances
surrounding any particular occurrence or event: "Consider always time,
place and person". This gives us both the context and the specifics.


I remember the occasion Matt describes very well. The totally superb Vernon
Reid sets standards as a guitarist, musician and human being to which I
aspire. Robert the gigging musician gets very little opportunity to see the
musicians I really wish to see. Often, it's down to hoping that the other
band/s on the bill are players you'd travel to hear, let alone open veins
to see in action. This was one of my lucky times. I had hoped Crimson would
tour extensively with Vernon last summer, but he didn't have the tour
support from his record company to make it possible. So, we only had two
nights together, the last two of the Crim tour.

When the lights went down at the beginning of the show I walked round the
side way to front-of-house and the soundboard, running away (well, walking
in a very brisk manner in a direction contrary-to-that-of) two people
shouting at me along the way, and even hid at one point until they had
gone. During and throughout the radically wonderful Vernon set various
people sat behind me and stared at me, stood in front of me and stared at
me, kneeled down in front of me and stared at me, and walked around my seat
and aisle staring at me; several of them presented me with tickets to sign,
some while standing directly in front of me as the Reid band were playing;
one autograph was presented between tunes from a kneeling gentleman who
speedily disappeared when I waved my hand in an imperious and dismissive
gesture. Clearly a rude and arrogant man, this Fripp.

My own strategies of behaviour are based on principles of conduct which
are generally applicable in my life, modified by ongoing experience, and
adapted / changed / abandoned in any particular moment in response to
particular circumstance: "Act always in accordance with time, place and
person". Little in my life is arbitrary, however unexpected or irrational
it might appear to those not privy to my inner workings; that is, to anyone
and everyone other than myself. And rarely now do I stop and explain, as
once I tried to do.

Readers of ET who have been generous enough with their time to take an
interest in what is referred to as "Fripp's 'tude" may have noticed that my
responses, sometimes seemingly friendly, sometimes seemingly rude, differ
in different places, at different times, to different people, under
different conditions and circumstances. (This itself was also recently the
subject of comment).

The phrases "please don't bother me" and "do not talk to me" from my lips
would be rude. When I am listening to music being played in live
performance, even very obviously sitting and listening to the music being
played (which includes the moments in between when "nothing" seems to be
happening) my response to an overture from someone I don't know is likely
to be non-verbal: the language of gesture is immediate, direct and
telling. So, I might shake my head, lean to the left to look past the
person standing directly in front of me so I am able to continue seeing the
band playing, or run away. All three of these non-verbal strategies were
used on this particular occasion, all of them several times (and running
away twice). As well as a dismissive and imperious gesture.

When I do give voice to a reply, in moments which are inconvenient or
inappropriate for me to respond positively to any particular approach,
request for autograph or question, my responses are usually these: at
first, "No, thank you". If this first response is ignored, I repeat "No,
thank you" a second time.  If this is ignored, my response is "Excuse
me". If this is ignored, my response is "Kindly grant me my privacy". If
this is ignored, I leave. The speed of my departure depends upon the
situation and is usually not the process of long reflection and considered
analysis. If my feet appear to be moving very quickly, I follow
them. Sometimes this might be brisk walking, sometimes breaking into a
trot, and sometimes even running.

This is one standard approach / response to a recurrent situation. There
are other possible responses, some of which I have used and some which I
have not yet tested.

However, I would rather not discuss in detail my own expectations and
assumptions, rights and obligations as I see them, until there has been
some interest shown in the topic by members of the ET team. Otherwise,


What I would like to know from Matt, if he feels able to respond, is:

1. Why did Matt want to say "Thank you" to me? What response did he expect
from me? What response did he want from me?

2. Matt compares me unfavourably with Gabriel, Collins, Bono and Sting. I
have no complaint with this: in comparison with these people, by any
standard of humanity or musicality, I come out unfavourably. But to make a
valid comparison and value judgement between two situations, the
circumstances have to be reasonably (actually, highly) comparable.

Were Peter, Phil, Gordon and Bono sitting, intently listening to and
watching a performance, at the time Matt "met and dealt with" them? If not,
why mention them? If yes, what were their responses? (This I would love to

3. How are Matt's expectations / rights affected by the fact that he has
given me money? How does he know that I got the money? If I hadn't, would
that affect his opinion? Has there been any mention of my obligations
towards him in the exchange of cash, in addition to his acquisition of a
record / concert ticket? (If the exchange of cash gives him rights, why say
"Thank you"?  - the payment to an ungrateful artist is surely
sufficient. If the payment isn't a sufficient "Thank you", then why mention
the money? In any case, isn't it a sufficient "Thank you" that Matt was in
the audience?).

4. "I'm left thinking I am a fan of a person who dislikes people, especially
the ones who give him money for his music". Why? How does Matt get to the
second conclusion?

5. "Maybe if you talk to RF you could express my apology" ... for what is
Matt apologising? His position, as he describes it, seems blameless.


I ran away from Matt the Three Headed Beast not because of his breath, not
because of his person, but because of his behaviour. My own view is that
Matt's conduct was inappropriate at that particular time, in that place,
between those specific people interracting under those particular
conditions. Matt's view is very different from this. My interest is in
Matt's expections, assumptions, his negative reaction, and the mention of

None of this implies that Matt is creepy, or has an unpleasant nature, or
suffers from debilitating personal ailments which adversely affect his
social life. I dislike some people, like some people, and don't give much
of a hoot for a significant proportion not included in those two
categories. I like some people whose behaviour disgusts me, and dislike
other people whose conduct I set myself as an example to follow. (It is
actually easier to behave honourably towards people we dislike, because we
don't make the same demands of them, implicitly and explicitly). So, liking
and disliking people doesn't bother me very much and has more to do with me
than them.


If any of the ETers need further persuasion that not only is Fripp's
offstage demeanour appalling, but that his onstage demeanour is arguably
worse, they might like to consult the Prelude to Number 17 of "Progression
- The Journal of Progressive Rock" (July - September 1995) where the editor
John Collinge makes several critical comments regarding my onstage

I don't wish to direct / redirect / affect forthcoming responses from
interested readers by prematurely presenting my own views on John's
particular piece of writing. Alright, just this once: very rarely have I
seen an editorial at any level of circulation which displays this degree of
ignorance and blindness, trumpeted so proudly, with deliberate rudeness and
forced wit.

I am grateful to those who help me see what I do more clearly, by allowing
me to see through their eyes; and to hear through their ears. The true
audient is a rare friend to the performer. So it is a deep personal
disappointment for me, as a player, that John has failed, so successfully,
to see what is on offer. So, what is on offer?

At the moment, it seems a musician is reviewing the audience. I hope it has
the friend it deserves.


Robert Fripp.

Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:11:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Markus Schneemann <schneema at icrf dot icnet dot uk>
Subject: Proposal for an organised/DISCIPLINEd answer to RF
Hi ETs

Our "hero" RF wrote:

 Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these

i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience /
/ fan and the musician?

ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan?

iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience /
enthusiast / fan?

iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of

v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of
Robert Fripp?

Because it is likely that hundreds of ETers will answer, and this may end
in undigestable newsletters I propose to do a kind of organized OPINION
POLL with a STANDARDIZED QUESTIONNAIRE which is put onto the elephant talk
website seperately from the newsletter.  I want to encourage
sociologists/psychologists amongst us to construct such a survey - and we
answer by e-mail.  ET with its 3-5000 regular readers should provide an
excellent base to study our attitudes towards KC and RF.  We should create
our own data on KC - e.g. what is/are the most beloved albums or songs of
KC ?  Is the readership of ET really >95% white, male, 20-30yrs of age,
middle-class ?  What do we expect of RF, KC ?

If we don't organise ourselves - only the "usual" Eters will answer to RF,
and all the others don't, so we'll get a wrong picture (selection bias).

It's true that occasionally it can be rather annoying to read this
unorganized chit-chat about KC.

IN the literature databases I found some literature on music and audience
relationships like Rock and roll in search of an audience by Lawrence
Grossberg (Univ. of Illinois) in Popular music and communication (2nd ed.)
Sage focus editions, vol. 89.  (James Lull, Ed.), pp. 152-179.  Sage
Publications Inc., Newbury park, CA, U.S.A.

So long -

Markus Schneemann
Institute of Molecular Medicine
John Radcliffe Hospital
schneema at icrf dot icnet dot uk


Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:12:55 GMT
From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk)
Subject: Crimson
Organization: Elephant Talk
chris price <chprice3 at mail dot vt dot edu> wrote...

> Now I am extremely interested in the Crimson history and other albums
> that could strike me as significantly as ITCOTCK. I went to the record
> store the other day and saw several, but I wasn't sure what album to
> move on to next

They never really made another album that was *quite* like ITCOTCK. The
follow-up was called 'In The Wake of Posiedon', side one of which matches
side one of its predecessor almost exactly and comes off as sounding like a
poor man's version of it.

Having said that, side two is significantly different and features a quite
breathtaking instrumental called 'The Devils Triangle' which, based on your
message, ought to appeal to you.

    Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk)
   For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:36:20 -0700
From: gondola at deltanet dot com (Eb)
Subject: Re: Luscious Bowie
>From: ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb)
>You might remember that Bowie released Station to Station, Low, and
>"Heroes" as a sort of trilogy.  Lodger and Scary Monsters came next and
>served as sort of transition albums before he started to make pop albums
>like Let's Dance.

Doesn't the "Berlin trilogy" consist of Low, Heroes and Lodger?? I've never
grouped Station To Station with Low and Heroes, myself. And incidentally,
Low is my favorite Bowie album.

Regarding Luscious Jackson, they're an all-girl hip-hop quartet out of New
York. Originally, they had a charming "homemade" sound that clashed nicely
with all the arrogant, big-time hip-hop epics. But I've liked each LJ
release less than the previous one. The new album Fever In Fever Out is
absolutely ruined by the producer choice. Lanois may have done cool
productions in his day, but he's completely the wrong guy for Luscious
Jackson. And the album is flopping, as far as I can tell, and Lanois'
production indeed is a prime complaint.

As for the group's giggling at King Crimson, yes, I agree with whoever else
said that KC would represent sort of a square, old-school, gray-haired band
to them.


Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:09:36 -0600
From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson)
Subject: Re: tritones and scales
Many thanks to CDowling (digest #329) for his valuable remarks regarding
the tritone in KC's music. In addition to the whole-tone scale (especially
apparent in "Fracture"), Fripp also often uses a scale called the octatonic
scale. (I believe this is also called the "diminished" scale among
jazzers). I hope non-musicians on the list will bear with this, or maybe at
least try it out.

The octatonic scale (also used heavily by Bartok and Stravinsky as well as
Messiaen, whose "turangalila symphony" was mentioned by Toby in an earlier
digest) is a scale of alternating whole and half steps--for example, C Db
Eb E F# G A Bb C. Notice that the interval from C to F#, for example, is a

This scale can be heard in "Red" (which can be analyzed as a kind of
octatonic 12-bar blues!), "THRAK," Fripp's solo on Sylvian/Fripp's "21st
Century Dreaming," etc. As a plug for where I teach, we're even featuring
"Red" among the pieces students listen to in first-year music theory at

Hope I haven't put off the non-music readers!

>Sorry if this seems a bit dry, but I found the thread an interesting
>alternative to the increasingly insufferable "fudge/judge" debate, perhaps
>one of the most meaningless imaginable.

Well, it's amusing, anyway...but I must agree that I'm enjoying this
tritone thread more.

Kevin Holm-Hudson
Department of Academic Studies and Composition
Northwestern University School of Music
Evanston, IL

"The doors that are closed *because* of education are the saddest doors
that humanity never walked through." --HARRY PARTCH

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:20:38 -0500
From: scruto19 at potsdam dot edu (Jason Scruton)
Subject: Larks' Tongues in the USA
I happened to notice that at the beginning of "LTiA, part II" on _USA_,
there is a very brief violin (or perhaps more accurately a Fripp soundscape
snippet).  Was this sort of introduction often used on the piece in live
 and did that particular soundscape ever develop into his later works?

Jason Scruton

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:24:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Jonathan Hall <ericeric at math dot lsa dot umich dot edu>
Subject: Sara Lee, a bass player or two.

I just noticed that "Sara Lee" is both the name of the League of Gentlemen
bass player and the name of the person playing bass at the Ani DiFranco
concert in Ann Arbor, MI last November.

Does anyone know if they are in fact the same person?  Thank you.

Eric Hall

From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman at primenet dot com>
Subject: A Correction
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:33 -0800
ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb) wrote in ET#329:

> You might remember that Bowie released Station to Station, Low, and
> "Heroes" as a sort of trilogy.  Lodger and Scary Monsters came next and
> served as sort of transition albums before he started to make pop albums
> like Let's Dance.

I'm afraid Station to Station is NOT part of a trilogy.  The first was Low,
followed by Heroes, THEN Lodger.  This is confirmed in a number of very old
(non-Rolling Stone) articles with Bowie referring to it as such.  In
addition, having had the great fortune to see Bowie in "The Elephant Man",
I got a Playbill for the show, in which it's mentioned among Bowies credits
that he "worked with Brian Eno on the Low-Heroes-Lodger trilogy".  This was
the first time I'd seen the three referred to as such, and it presaged the
magazine articles.

I agree with another ET writer who referred to Fripp-like work on "1.
Outside"; knowing how Bowie wanted Fripp to play on this album also, but
knowing as well that RF was on tour during that time, it's interesting to
hear all the places in the album where Bowie might have wanted him to play.
 Reeves Gabriel is a fine guitarist, but it would have been a nice kind of
'reunion' of sorts for Bowie, Eno, and Fripp to play together again.
Perhaps RF might be on the next 'diary' album, which Bowie's reportedly
working on.

* Stephen Goodman            It's the Loop Of The Week!  And it's free!
* EarthLight Productions      http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:27:50 +1000
From: j dot keens at rmit dot EDU dot AU (Jeremy Keens)
Subject: bowie eno and getting off topic
In et 329
> From: ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb)
> Subject: FRIPP, ENO, BOWIE
> said
> You might remember that Bowie released Station to Station, Low, and
> "Heroes" as a sort of trilogy.  Lodger and Scary Monsters came next and
> served as sort of transition albums before he started to make pop albums
> like Let's Dance.  I find it interesting that while I always liked Carlos
> Alomar's guitar work, his most interesting albums featured other great
> guitarists.

NO NO NO: StoS is so different to low it is impossible to consider them in
the same breath. The trilogy was low/heroes/lodger with the brian eno

As to six degrees of separation, often as a sheepcounter when I can't sleep
I try to find connections in my record collection between Fripp/Eno and
everyone else. Some very short trips to Jethro Tull, PiL and others.
Together with bowie, sylvian and gabriel F&E make good linkers because of
their wide spread activity. Have just thought - will have to try to get a
connection between them and my Fax collection: one possible link is the
collab between namlook and rob gordon of warp.


Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:13:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Gideon B Banner <gideon dot banner at yale dot edu>
Subject: Couple of theory questions
About the tritone: does it appear merely melodically, or does it appear
harmonically as well?  Just curious about chord structures in general.
Really curious about the chord progression in Thrak, Marine 475, Vroom, and
Vroom Vroom, as well, if anyone happens to know them.  Gideon Banner

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
From: michael damian jeter <lordabay at earthlink dot net>
Subject: Tritones
Let's start by looking at the
chromatic scale(so called b/c it shows all the tones of Western music):

CC#DD#EFF#GG#AA#BC(12 notes)
The major scale(the one most of us know):


In the medeival Church, certain intervals (sets of notes) were considered
perfect," ie, God-like.  These were:

C-F(Perfect Fourth)C-G(Perfect Fifth) and C-C(Perfect Octave).  Notice the
fourth and fifth are inversions of one another in another key(The perfect
fourth in C is a perfect fifth in F[F-C].  The fact that these intervals can
be found within one another gave rise to their being called "perfect"

the tritone is a fourth raised by a half step(C-F#) or a fifth lowered by a
half-step(G-Db[C#]).  The sound of this interval was extremely dissonant to
medeival ears(still is to many listeners).  And this dissonance was seen as
evidence of evil, or the Devil, and thus, it was called the "Devil's

Michael Damian Jeter
Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY
Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139
Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do --
George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:32:04 -0400
From: Andre Godin <eag3374 at UMoncton dot ca>
Organization: Universiti de Moncton
Subject: U.K.,Thrak Attack, , Torn

First a question.

Does anyone know what became of the U.K. project that was suppose to
feature Wetton, Jobson, Fripp and an occasional Bruford?  Even though
reuniting the Red Trio sounds like tempting fate to me, I'd be curious to
hear this in case they came up with anything comparable to 73-74 KC.

On Thrak Attack

Anyone notice a parralel with the Ornette Coleman Double Quartet's Free
Jazz.  Both feature an album's work of atonal improvisation and both brock
new ground for their respective styles (jazz/rock).  I mean let's face it
has there ever been a rock album with so little respect for rock
conventions?  Allthough Zappa improvised a ton and used atonality, his
tonal experiments didn't really keep the rock feeling the way Thrak Attack
does.  Allthough Thrak Attack is unprecedented as a rock album, it somehow
maintains some of the feeling you get listening to Sabbath or Hendrix. I'm
really suprised by those who describe it as incoherent.  To me it sounds
like some of the most inteligent improvising I'v heard outside of
Coltrane. I find it quite coherent with a nice varity of style.  More
enjoyable and coherent than Free Jazz, which I also enjoy.

On Cloud About Mercury

Don't want to offend anyone with this but with all the noise about this
album lately (and all the people recommentding it).  I was wondering if I'm
the only one who finds it mediocre, especially for something on ECM.
 The Bruford/Levin rythm section performs brilliantly as expected but
Torn and Isham sound lost to me.  Only the first track Suyafhy Skin does
it for me.  The rest of the time Torn sounds to me like a vastly
inferior version of Bill Frisell. More Noisy than creative.

The poster formerly known as Mr. Monday.

From: Ron Harding <rharding at sentex dot net>
Subject: Re: Six degrees of King Crimson
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:30:33 -0500 (EST)
MarkDAshby writes:
> I've been playing around with a game recently that some KC fans might be
> interested in.  Perhaps some of you are familiar with the concept of Six
> Degrees of Separation -- that is, anyone can be linked with anyone else by
> mutual associations in six people or less.
[snippety-snip, Emacs trick]

I've spent some time on this sort of thing.  The rock family trees included
with the box sets make it too easy, though.

Most of the major British prog bands are easily connected, but Jethro Tull
can be tricky.  No connections come to mind, but I think I knew one once.
The recent tour with ELP doesn't count.

I spent a long time searching for a link from the progressive music I
listen to these days to Neil Young and his cronies.  I finally found that
connection, but I can no longer remember what it was.  I think it was
through Tony Levin (the way he gets around, he's probably connected to
every band on the planet.)  It may also have been through the Belew/Zappa
connection.  Another possibility: Graham Nash was in the Hollies, which
gets us to the correct side of the Atlantic, at least.

- Ron

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:21:41 -0500
From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith)
Subject: Bowie's Birthday
>From: CWA <chanders at indiana dot edu>
>Subject: Fripp and Bowie

>... David Bowie at madison square garden on January 9th. The basic format
>of the concert was that Bowie sang and performed. And special guests backed
>him up throughout the show. The guests included Sonic Youth, Bill Corgan,
>Lou Reed...and Robert Fripp. 

I was there and unless someone has devastatingly solid proof to the
contrary I will state for the record that Fripp was not.  For one thing, I
was seated at side stage with a clear view to every "layer" of activity
going on onstage and off.  And for another, Reeves Gabrels was clearly
visible at the front of the stage playing the leads on the two mentioned
songs, notably *not* mimicking Fripp's original recorded parts
note-for-note (which I had mixed feelings about).  Otherwise, it was a
decent concert, though I thought Sonic Youth was criminally
underutilized... lots of stuff from the upcoming Bowie album "Earthling,"
in which B. weds his sound to new latest UK rage, high BPM drums'n'bass.
The guests (Frank Black, Foo Fighters, Robert Smith, Billy Corgan and Lou
Reed) all joined Bowie for two songs apiece (Reed actually got four, two of
which were Velvet Underground tunes, one a track from his "New York"
album.)  Pretty nice.

The whole thing will be on pay-per-view TV in the US sometime soon, and
presumably will be packaged for home consumption after that...

Steve Smith
ssmith at knittingfactory dot com

Date: 22 Jan 97 10:46:15 EST
Subject: from Robert Fripp
Dear Team,

In ET 317 Karen Minder writes (November 26th. 1996):

"On July 9th. of this year my friend and I were lucky enough to be able to
get to the Horde Festival and get backstage passes from Adrian Belew ...
Getting the passes was kind of a big deal for us and the only thing that
was asked of us was that we must not under any circumstances approach
Mr. Fripp for any reason whatsoever. We happily complied ...".

In ET 319 Mike Dickson writes in response to Karen's posting:

"Given Fripp's apparent life-long aversion to all things `showbiz', does
anyone else see the contradiction here? As much as I may have many years of
profound appreciation of his work, this sort of prima-donna attitude seems
to fly in the face of his stated wishes to avoid the trappings of the type
of fame he despises. Frankly, if backstage passes were dished out with this
sort of proviso (assuming it is *his* proviso, that is) I doubt if I'd
accepted them, whether I wished to approach him or otherwise".

Happily, Karen and her friend enjoyed her visit backstage. Sadly, the
conditions under which they visited seems to have upset Mike. I'd like to
know exactly why. This is not to dissuade Mike, or anyone else, of their
perception or opinion of Fripp as the rude, ungrateful, contradictory and
egotistical character whose failings many ET correspondents have reported,
including those who only wanted to say "Thank you" and, probably, gave me
money as well.

Perhaps Mike would be kind enough to address these questions:

1. How does Mike make the connection between the "proviso" and showbiz" /
"trappings of fame"? How was Karen's visit backstage connected to these
"trappings of ... fame"?

2. What type of fame is it that Mike claims I "despise"? What is his

3. In Mike's reasoning, how does he get to "this sort of prima-donna
attitude"? What sort of prima donna attitude is that?

4. "Frankly, if backstage passes were dished out with this sort of proviso
(assuming it is *his* proviso, that is) I doubt if I'd accepted them,
whether I wished to approach him or otherwise".

	i)	Why does Mike assume I made the proviso?
	ii)	Assuming it wasn't Fripp's proviso, what then? How would Mike's
letter change if his assumption were unfounded?
	iii)	If backstage passes at Crimson performances were "dished out with
this sort of proviso" what is the likelihood of Mike getting one?
	iv)	If Mike was offered a backstage pass "with this sort of proviso",
would he accept or not?

5. Karen got backstage passes which were subject to a categorical proviso
being given not to approach Fripp. This didn't phase Karen, but it did work
its cruel effect on Mike. What were the steps involved that led Mike to
post his letter?


	Robert Fripp.

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:11:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Basile <basilej at rams1 dot rasd dot k12 dot pa dot us>
Subject: PiTT local,Fripp,Thrak
Enjoyed all the last ET every letter. Pittsburgh,PA does not have to many
progressive rock bands,but many great blues players. Some of note Billy
Price;Glen Pavone& The Cyclones; Tom O'Hara; Matt Berantty; and Andy
Thiry of Girard,PA. All are super guitarists or have them in there Bands.
I know I've missed many,sorry! So if in Pittsburgh, come check out the blues.

On Fripp's super last posting, A turkey and a charlaten, but I love it !
ha, ha!
Seeing KC perform during the video, has made me appreciate THRAK,
now it is one of my all time favorites.
Joe Basile

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Sullivan <sullivan at gwis2 dot circ dot gwu dot edu>
Subject: the Bowie/Eno trilogy correction, and Glass
Someone mentioned incorrectly in the last issue that Station to Station,
Low, and HEroes formed a trilogy of conceptually related Bowie albums in
the mid-70's, with Lodger and Scary Monsters forming a looser transitional
set. Incorrect: the famous trilogy of albums consists of Low/Heroes/Lodger,
all of which had input from Eno.

Btw, Philip Glass, having aklready written a symphonic treatment of 'Low',
is soon to release one of 'Heroes', according to ICE magazine. "Lodger"
will follow eventually.  I haven't heard the Low Symphony, but from what I
read it is more a recasting of certain themes, rather than one of those
dreadful 'Symphonic Music of' projects.

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:24:17 -0800
From: Jason Bell <xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com>
Subject: That Thing In Bruford's Mouth
Big Fat Smelly Greg wrote:

>1.- Bruford occasionally has a thingie in has mouth attached to
>a string around his neck.  Does anyone know what this is?  Is it
>a way to change his Simmons patch while all four limbs are busy?

Casting my mind back to the two Shepherds Bush show in London last year.
 I was positive it was a whistle.

Jason Bell
EMAIL : xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com
HTTP  : http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xdr44

"Where We Are Going, Is How We Get There"
Robert Fripp

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:54:22 -0500
From: John Saylor <jsaylor at MIT dot EDU>
Subject: trying tones

>From: ricjoly at odyssee dot net (Richard Joly)
>Can someone explain, in layman terms,  what *tritones* are ?

It is a name for the sound that occurs when two pitches a specific number
of steps apart [6 half steps] are sounded. For instance, the notes B & F
make a tritone.

Also, nice work with the ono pages. I bought the record she did with Sean
after reading those pages and I am happy I did.

>From: Ctao at aol dot com
Sorry to nitpick, but you seem to be asking for it.

>1) The tritone is the fifth of the wholetone scale (codified in the music
>of Debussy), and, as such, is one of the primary structural points in that

The whole tone scale has never been "codified", Debussy used it frequently,
but he's not the only one. And the notion of the fifth is out of place in
the whole tone scale. It's OK to borrow ideas from other harmonic systems
[diationic] to explain the whole tone scale, but the notion of the fifth
with all the harmonic baggage that goes along with it is just not
applicable here. And besides, if you were to count, it's the fourth [1.c
2.d 3.e 4.f#].

>2) The tritone, it can be argued, is the most structural of dissonances,
>and the seat of the greatest tension in 12 tone equal temperament (our
>Western tuning schema).

I think the half step has a greater dissonance [based on ratio of
intervals], but I may be wrong.

>Whereas the dissonant seconds and sevenths can
>often be used as ornamental or coloristic devices, the use of the tritone
>declares pretty clearly "this is not your standard diatonic situation" or
>"resolution may never come".

Trtiones can also be quite coloristic [see Debussy, or better yet
Mussorgskii], and the tritone declares no such thing. Even the most
superficial analysis of Bach or Mozart will find the tritone all over the
place [dominant seventh chord].

And harmonic resolution [here in the late 20th century] is a lot broader
than coming down on a major chord.

>5) One more though on the wholetone scale - it is functionally "static", or
>completely at odds with the forward thrust of diatonically based music of
>the Western tradition.  In fact, it is much closer, in theory, to
>Schoenberg's 12 tone system.  Both are made up of perfectly equal
>intervals, and both undermine the traditional roles of functional harmony.

To me, this shows that you have no concept of Schoenberg's chromatic
system. To make a broad generalization, Schoenberg's music comes out of
Brahms which comes out of Beethoven. And these guys are the pillars of
forward thrusting music [phallic puns intended]. While it is true that
Schoenberg's music will never be mistaken for Beethoven, the same cannot be
said about Brahms. Debussy is doing something completely different- static
like you say.

Using tools from Schenker [or any other "serious" theorist] can help, but
don't think that by using a tool you can explain the music. The music has
many ways in, and all of them are valid.

Since I criticized your theories, it's only fair to offer my own for like

Fripp has shown a tendency in his music to use symmetric scales [like the
whole tone], but there is more going on here than harmonic trickery. While
I haven't done a lot of "serious" analysis, I have listened to pretty much
all of the recordings he has put out with Crimson. I think a more fruitful
analysis comes out of examining how things are layered and/or juxtaposed in
the music. This can happen with pitch collections, rhythms, "sound worlds",
and more. Also, the notion of being out of synch, or dissassociated, or on
the outside is important to this music.

Now let's just admit that Fripp is the greatest guitarist ever and leave
analysis alone ...
John Saylor [from the home office]

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:45:21 -0500
From: alan s cohen <i000371 at disch3 dot disc dot dla dot mil>
Subject: Re: "Beat" & Live sets from the 80's
>In the past I tended to keep this feeling quite, because I've read an
>interview in the 80's were Fripp told he didn't like it, so I've always
>thought "if HE doesn't like it, why should I"....but deep inside me I've
>kept this emotion.

I was lucky enough to see Fripp perform a Frippertronics concert at
Princeton University way back in '83. He was also lecturing and taking
questions from the audience. Someone asked what he thought of "Beat". Fripp
said that he felt that it didn't go far enough. I think I'd probably agree
with him, but he couldn't have been talking about "Requiem", which was some
(let's not forget, IMO) great noise, and I mean this as a compliment.

>And after this, I've also thought that I WILL NEVER FORGIVE FRIPP/KC of not
>having released ANY live CD of the 80's era. That's outrageous !  While we

Someone just told me that a 2 CD set of the 80's band will be released late
this year. Although I'm not sure that I trust any information that doesn't
come from Possible Productions (and then there are those inevitable delays...).

Waiting (im)patiently for "That Which Passes",


Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:09:36 -0500
From: Michael Fisher <MFISHER at VARIETY dot CAHNERS dot COM>
Subject:  Elephant Talk Digest #329 -Reply
>Can someone explain, in layman terms,  what *tritones* are ?

I'll give it a shot...

A tritone is a particular relationship (or "interval") between two notes.

Okay, what's an "interval"? It's a way of measuring how much higher one
note is than another. Some examples of commonly used intervals might be a
major third, minor third, a fourth or a fifth.

The tritone is the interval called an "augmented fourth"...basically, it's a
half step more than  a fourth, a half step less than a fifth.

A readily accessible accessible example of a tritone is the opening
chords of "Purple Haze," before that lead melody starts...each of those
alternating chords is a tritone. It definitely sounds demonic, and I can
certainly hear why the clergy of the Middle Ages would declare that
interval evil...


Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:43:00 -0500
From: Thom Smith <SmithT at cpcuiia dot org>
Subject: _Beat_
Hi, all.

I have not posted in ages. I can't believe I still had the address in my
address book.

Responding to Andrea's remark that RF never really liked _Beat_, I remember
reading a similar---if not the same---material. What I gathered was that RF
had a clear vision for _Discipline_ which was singularly Frippish; the
album has a unity that the other two do not (well, yes, _Beat_ itself has a
*thematic* unity---the beat generation---but none so musically and
spiritually encompassing as _Discipline_; it certainly dominates his MO to
this day. However, the label (Warner Bros.?) required a contract for three
albums. I'm sure Fripp and the band did not have three albums in them right
at the start.

RF let a little more of the creative control go to the other band members
for much of the remaining two albums, Belew especially. Note "Heartbeat,"
for instance, the most pop-like song of that period. And I think TOAPF has
an experimental, improv edge that echoed the 72-74 lineup as well as
presaged the current sound, explicitly stated in LTiA III.

On the whole, I cannot really think of one '80s album without thinking of
the others. They are a trinity and, not purposely choosing a religious
metaphor, I hold the three musically sacred. They were my introduction to
KC in 1985. "Indiscipline" was the first KC tune I ever heard. Only hearing
Mick Karn for the first time was I so knocked out.


Date: 22 Jan 1997 20:03:57 U
From: "Matthew" <matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us>
Subject: No! No! I'm sorry! Ach!
Erm, hi there...

  I just wanted to apologise profusely for my previous post, the "'Islands'
sleeve" one... If I would have bothered to check the archives BEFORE I
posted, instead of AFTER, I would have found my answer. Really very sorry,
so ignore the post-unless you can tell me something not said there. But
email me personally at matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us instead of taking up
list space.

Reeeeally slimy-feeling,

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:46:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Stuff4Nick at aol dot com
Subject: Grand for a Grand
Attention: Stick for sale.

Selling rosewood grand #981. 6x6 pick-up with black/chrome tuners. Adjustable
bridge and truss rod. Includes cable, case and book. Asking $1000.00

contact Nick Marshall (stuff4nick at aol dot com)

nICK m

From: oracular at webtv dot net (David Denis)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:51:04 -0500
Subject: strange attractor
A brief note about a very Crimson-like band.  The band Strange Attractor
will be part of a 4 band line-up performing at The Webster theatre in
Hartford Ct on Feb 7. They play all original music.If you love King Crimson
you will love this band.

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:23:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
Subject: Islands/Tritones/Oops
"Matthew" <matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us> wrote:

>My record of Islands has a VERY different cover from the CD. It looks like
>a small blue cloud on the lower right corner on a white background. The
>back is basically the same, and the photo montage in the gatefold is the
>same. So what's up with this? Why the change?

Presumably your LP is the American version.  The British LP had the nebula
picture on the cover itself and an unusual gatefold inner sleeve with the
multi-colored islands on a cream-colored background on the outside and the
lyrics and band photos on the inside.  This gatefold design was used for the
main cover of the U.S. Atlantic edition.  The Editions E.G. reissue used the
British cover, and eliminated the gatefold from the inner sleeve.
* * *
Those with no interest in music theory please skip down to the next bunch of

Ctao at aol dot com wrote:

>1) The tritone is the fifth of the wholetone scale (codified in the music
>of Debussy), and, as such, is one of the primary structural points in that

Nope.  The word tritone refers to two technically different but
enharmonically equivalent intervals: the augmented fourth and the diminished
fifth.  The tritone in the whole tone scale is the *fourth* degree (augmented
fourth, C-F#), not the fifth.  (The V degree of the whole tone scale is the
augmented fifth, C-G#, and consequently the basic triad in the whole tone
scale is the augmented chord C-E-G#.)  The diminished fifth is actually
derived from the standard diatonic scale as the interval V of VII (B-F in the
key of C).  The aug 4th and dim 5th may be the same thing to a pianist (or a
guitar player), but to a composer they're different bags of bananas.
* * *
In my last post I attributed a quote about "dippy-dippy guitar stuff" to
Frank Zappa.  Wrong-o!  Ed Sanders said it.  Sorry Frank, sorry Ed, sorry

Take it to the bridge,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew     @}-`--}----
...visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:14:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Michael Forrest Zink <dpgumby at csd dot uwm dot edu>
Subject: STP groons (whatever that means...)
Hi There-

Just thought I'd share an interesting tidbit from the latest
issue of Rolling Stone.  In the article on Stone Temple Pilots, the
brothers DeLeo -- well, let me just type out what the article says:

"As for broadcasting their influences on record, the DeLeos are keen to
point out that Dean's angular chord patterns on Tiny Music's 'Adhesive'
are a nod to Robert Fripp's riffing on the 1974 King Crimson track 'Red.'"

Another reason STP is one of the coolest groups out there nowadays.

Also -- in lieu of all the talk about the "ET Tribute", if there is anyone
interested, I would be happy to master-up a rough tape of covers if people
were to send cassettes to me.  This wouldn't be "THE TRIBUTE" (if that ever
comes to pass), but kind of a "quick fix" (for lack of a better term) for
people itching to do this.  No money shall exchange hands.  If anyone is
interested, or would like more details, or wants to know where to send the
tape please e-mail me privately.  I'd like to get all tapes before the last
week of March, so I can compile it and get it out in time.  Thanks for the
band width.

"You think our music, the Monkees' music is banal and insipid?!" - F.
Zappa as Mike Mesmith to Mike Nesmith's F. Zappa in episode 57 of the
Monkees' TV series, March 1968.

-DPGumby at csd dot uwm dot edu-

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:45:27 +1000
From: Joshua Bloom <anna at werple dot net dot au>
Subject: Crimson/Fripp tour of Australia
Dear Sir,

	I realise that we antipodeans are considered somewhat less advanced
than our northern hemisphere counterparts, but when are we going to see the
best band in the world here? If Fripp is listening (and in his omnipotence,
how could he not be?), I hope he understands just how many Crimson fans
there are in this country, and acts accordingly.

	On another matter, I feel it is rather pointless discussing Fripp's
views on anything, as I'm sure he doesn't mean most of them anyway, and
just makes grandiose statements to seem enigmatic and profound. I'd much
rather listen to his music than hear him spout rhetoric. Less talk about
vampires and dinosaurs and more music!

	Finally, may I say that Adrian Belew's naive and insipid lyrics are
the one major flaw in Crimson's current song-writing. The man is a
fantastic musician and guitarist, but he has absolutely no poetry in his

		Well, I've bullshitted on long enough. Hope I didn't bore
you and thanks for listening!

					Yours sincerely,

					Joshua Bloom (Melbourne, 					Australia)

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:28:16 GMT
From: STEVE dot FROY at GEO2 dot poptel dot org dot uk
Subject: Fripp & Beefheart ?
Can you help ? I came across Elephant Talk. I'm a Captain Beefheart fan and
have recently been told he's been recording with Robert Fripp (and Brian
Eno).  Have you heard this ?  If you have any details - where (and how) it
came about - I'd be really grateful for confirmation, because it means the
old fart has come out of musical retirement.  Or if it's just a wind-up...


Keep on rollin on

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:49:31 -0500
From: alan s cohen <i000371 at disch3 dot disc dot dla dot mil>
Subject: An explanation and an apology
>And after this, I've also thought that I WILL NEVER FORGIVE FRIPP/KC of not
>having released ANY live CD of the 80's era.

Bad news folks. I'm the person who wrote that I was told by someone that
there would be a release of '80's live material this year. Well I just
spoke to Mark Perry and told me that the guy I spoke to doesn't know what
he's talking about.  It was pretty amazing actually. He was giving me
release dates for USA 2, Soundbytes, telling me of an upcoming new Tony
Levin disc, there was going to be a 4 CD set of the 4 soundscapes CDs
coming out (Mark told me that not only is this not true, but it isn't even
certain that we'll ever see Soundbytes).  Mark said that he doesn't even
know what's happening in the future, and neither does Fripp for that
matter.  So I'm sorry for getting your hopes up. I beg the forgiveness of
ETers around the world, and I'll never send information that doesn't come
from PossProd again.


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:05:09 +0000 (gmt)
From: Tony Emmerson <t dot emmerson at ic dot ac dot uk>
Subject: Live lyrics
Anyone with The Great Deciever box-set or live Wetton album (or even better
has seen JW in action over recent months) ahould be able to hear 'licking
fudge' as the mystery Easy Money lyric. But what are the Starless lyrics on
The Great Deceiver? - I'm sure they're not as on Red but just can't make
them out.

Any advice appreciated,

"I'll be a moonsbreath by your side..."
-Loreena McKennitt.

From: jzb3101 at stud dot u-szeged dot hu
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 17:34 MET
Hello Everyone!

Some of you might be interested that Out there in Hungary there is a band
called after After Crying. They started their career 10 years ago playing In
the court... Now they have four of their own CD.-s. If you can get any of
them it's worth the effort.

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 12:49:07 -0800
From: Christopher Jepson <cjepson at pobox dot upenn dot edu>
Subject: Tritones and Lizard
1.  Although I doubt that RF likes tritones *because* they were prohibited
from medieval church music, I assume that the bizarre, nightmarish quality
of the tritone has a lot to do with both RF's interest in it and with the
Church's prohibition.  I would guess that RF considers the tritone a
manifestation or representation of some dark, forbidding force that both
fascinates and repels him... in other words, he may, in a very real sense,
consider it to be the devil (or at least that force which the medieval
church would have interpreted as the devil) in music.  I have no doubt that
he has long been aware of the medieval interpretation of the tritone --
although I am not a musicologist, I assume "The Devil's Triangle" has
something to do with this.  Also I recall reading somewhere (the Tamm
book?) that the name "King Crimson" was the result of an effort to think up
clever names for the devil...

Tying this to another recent thread, I think that part of what I enjoy
about KC music is this recurring appearance of dark forces.  I can't
imagine anyone enjoying KC who doesn't have an appreciation for such

2.  Here is another vote for _Lizard_.  I think it is the most relentlessly
strange of all the KC albums, and therefore, for me personally, possibly
the quintessential KC album (along with ITCOTCK and LTIA) ... it should be
obvious by now that I'm one of those '69-'74 KC fanatics...

Thanks for reading,


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:09:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Nameless to the Goddess <afn39111 at afn dot org>
Subject: idle talk, fripperies, chitchat
1. The connection game. The old game is neat, and it's hilarious to connect
disparate artists like Kurt Cobain to Robert Fripp, but let's try some
harder ones: howabout find an artist that you *can't* connect to King
Crimson (amazingly difficult); howabout who can connect two members of King
Crimson in the *longest* chain?

2. "Licking fudge..." It's what it says to me, and it always bothered me.
There's nothing wrong with your basic sex sort of thing, but this always
brought me to the rather disturbing image of coprophilia. And I think I
didn't want to know that much about the speaker's character.

Sinister Minister <*> Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111
DREAMS OF TAKING THE VEIL--a rollercoaster reality ride

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:27:41 -0500
From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" <ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com>
Dear ETers:

I have an interesting anecdote to tell you, yielding an actual thing you
can try yourselves. The result is a direct application of some of Fripp's
(TM, Marcas Registradas) ideas.  During my long commutes home to Queens
from New Jersey, I often listen to college radio, in this case WFMU (which
survives despite the collapse of its supporting college). Last friday i was
listening to a radio call-in show that was kind of going nowhere. One
caller had his radio too loud, so you could hear a delayed version of what
was being said on the show (due to the 7 second station delay used for
catching bleep-able words). Of course, the host berated the caller and
insructed him to turn his radio down.

At that moment, an idea popped into my head. i picked up my cellular phone
and called into the show. I asked the host if he were ready for a change of
topic, and he impatiently replied that he was. So i began a nasal sort of
drone and waited for the delayed version to come over the air. When it did,
I cranked up my radio and started to layer the sound over the delayed
"echo", a la Frippertronics.  The result was quite interesting, and sort of
flabbergasted the host: "You created a spontaneous composition....using the

When finished, I dubbed the technique "Radiotronics", acknowledging that
some inspiration came from Fripp's Frippertronics (so don't accuse me of
intellectual property violation, Mr Fripp!).  So try it! Call up a local
radio station and test it out. When doing so, try.....

1. After a base-level drone is set up, "chop" it and shape it by manipulation
of volume, base, and treble knobs.
2. "Sample" other radio shows by punching the radio buttons to other stations,
then coming back.
3. Play found objects and whatnot
4 Ask the host to change the delay time periodically.
5. Ask the host to bring others on line for their "samples", while you maintain
the base drones.

The possibilities are endless (and keep me up one night just coming to
me). I begin to understand Fripp's fascination with the idea. I have since
communicated with that host, and he has invited me to call up once and a
while and try it again, so I'll keep you posted if anything interesting
happens. If you do try it, let me know a la direct email, or via ET (Toby
allowing).  -Emory.

From: "Barrie Sillars" <bsillars at dial dot pipex dot com>
Subject: That Great Deceiver/Viva Roxy Music
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:14:24 -0000
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:27:44 -0500 (EST)
> From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
> Subject: Hands, Minced Words, Wellsprings, Fudge, etc.
> Responses to various ET musings...
> Chris Mitchell <squonk at utkux dot utcc dot utk dot edu> wrote:
> >Here's a silly trivia question: in the back of the Great Deceiver's
> >scrapbook, there is a nice sized picture of someone's hands playing what
> >I assume is a mellotron. Now, the sleeve of Roxy Music's live _Viva_
> >album contains the very same picture....just wondering whose
> >picture that actually is.
> Good spotting, Chris!  That's a real puzzler.  Between the two bands
> are five (at least part-time) keyboardists it could be: Robert Fripp,
> Cross, Bryan Ferry, Eddie Jobson or Andy MacKay.  (I think Eno can be
> safely ruled out!)  My guess is that it's Fripp, because it appears to be
> someone wearing a black t-shirt, which matches Fripp's stage garb at the
> time.  The only reason I don't feel terribly confident about this guess
> that the picture seems to be a still taken from a video monitor, like all
> the other shots on the Viva! sleeve, suggesting that it could after all
> one of the Roxy members.

Maybe a trivia question, but what is that photograph doing in The Great
Deceiver scrapbook? The whole Viva cover is taken from a video. The photo
in question is Eddie Jobson. Those long, slender fingers are Eddies' and
the T-shirt is actually his red long-sleeved shirt shown in another still
in shadow with sleeves pushed up. But why is this photo included? The only
connections are that John Wetting appears on the Viva album and Jobson
appears on USA (well the mixing actually) which is of course the original
live document from that period of KC history. A bit of humour on someone's
part? Bill Smiths or Fripps? Nice touch though.

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:04:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Otherroad at aol dot com
Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #331
In a message dated 97-01-24 23:29:40 EST, Gordon Emery Anderson writes:

>Actually, I am not sure how I feel having bandmembers read ET:

I for one think it's a very neat thing to have them participate in this
forum.  I think it's better to have them than not.

>this is
>bound to induce some self-conciousness and editing on the parts of those
>who write. It is natural for us who listen to want to earn approval (or
>attempt to show it's not necessary) from bandmembers, in either case an
>interference with fully honest communication.

Forgive me for what I'm about to say, Mr. Anderson.  I'm not intending to
flame you, but I see nothing wrong with a little self-conciousness and self
editing on the part of those participating in this or any forum.  In my
field we have a diagnosis for someone who communicates with full honesty.
It's called Tourette's Syndrome.  On the net when you have full honesty
it's sometimes called a flame war.  Yes, a flame war is people expressing
themselves as honestly as they can.  Of course the qualities of
responsibility and consideration for others are usually completely lacking
in such communication.

There is, in fact, no such thing as full honesty.  There is no such thing as
absolute truth.  There is only perception and that is not constant from one
individual to the next.  If the presence of the artists whose work we
appreciate causes us to express our thoughts in a way that is more civil,
more polite, well all the better.  Remember, Fripp didn't say, "Don't
criticize me."  If I read his note correctly, he seems to welcome criticism,
but challenges us to criticize him in a way that is meaningful and

I am reminded of a story by Mark Twain that I read so many years ago I don't
remember the title.  The main characters were two sisters who lived together
and who prized thruth above all else.  They would speak nothing but the truth
always giving totally honest opinions.  Of course they were viewed by the
rest of the community as being cold-hearted, self righteous, and just plain


                              Gary Davis
The Artist Shop                              The Other Road
http://www.artist-shop.com       OtherRoad at aol dot com

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:40:17 -0500
From: Rick Tolbert <rtolbert at glasscity dot net>
Subject: Easy Money lyrics controversy - SOLVED!
Hello my fellow KC/Fripp fans,

Having "lurked" here for a few months enjoying (most of) the input from
others, I finally have something worthwhile to contribute. Regarding the
controversy of the lyrics to "Easy Money", I would like to point out that
John Wetton's 1995 recording "Chasing The Dragon - John Wetton Live"
contains a performance of this song in which the lyrics are clearly
enunciated and are beyond misunderstanding. The section under scrutiny

"Well, I argued with the judge/
But the bastard wouldn't budge/
'Cause they caught me LICKING fudge/
and they never told me once/
you were a minor/
Easy Money."

Notice this is NOT the commonly-posted "making fudge", nor the insipid
suggestion "inkey pudge".

My wife, who cannot stand KC's music and thus is unfamiliar with their
songs, was able to pick out this lyric on Wetton's disc with no hesitation
at all - so did 3 other family memebers with NO exposure to KC or Fripp at

If anyone would dispute this, I suggest they check out the CD in question
first. Wetton's not known for clear articulation, but this disc is an
exception and will kill all questioning about lyrics. I hope this post will
kill the thread on "Easy Money"!!


Mike Stok