Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #330 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 330 Wednesday, 22 January 1997 SPECIAL ISSUE Replies from ETers to Robert Fripp's post in ET#328 (part one) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Hello everyone. The response from ETers to Robert's post in ET#328, in which he asked for ETers' views on a number of issues concerning the relationships between artist and audience, has been enormous. Boy, do you people like to write! This is the first of several special ETs which feature those replies. There'll be no list of topics, as we normally feature, so save a litle space. May I ask one thing: if you wish to reply to the points raised here, to continue the discussion, please feel free to do so. But please set your subject line to "RF questions", and don't include other topics in your post. That way I can keep track of this thread and keep it in special editions of ET. Posts not following these guidelines will not make it. Otherwise, it's spaghetti time. Thanks. So, sit back, and enjoy... in our flame-free conference room. Best wishes to all Toby ------------------------------ From: "Ott, John" Subject: Mr. Fripps questions Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:07:37 -0600 >) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician?< I think the relationship should be one where the musician performs music that is close to his heart, that is, something he cares about enough to practice and mold into his performance. The audience should be prepared to listen without prior expectations other than that the musician is prepared to perform. This is an ideal of course. Audiences do have expectations and would jeer /walk out/ demand refunds if their expectations are severly damaged. Few would welcome too many suprises. I happen to like suprises in small to meduim doses. I at times have been a musician and at times been in the audience. I have had moments of sheer joy in both. I have had dissappointments in both positions. C'est la vie. >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan?< To decide what we like and don't like. Too cheer what we like, to jeer what we don't. >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan?< To be considerate of our neighbors in the audience, to allow the musician a chance to be heard before making judgement. > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > your artists? To be entertained, to be moved by the music, with occasional suprises. I saw the Amazing Rythm Aces while in college and while they played an amazing set most of the audience was dissapointed because they did not play any of their Top 40 hits. That wasn't what they expected. I was somewhat disappointed not to hear the hits but I still came away statisfied with the effort of the musicians. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? See number IV. later John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:59:13 +0000 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering Laboratory Subject: Reg. Robert Fripp's Letter Dear readers Thank you Robert for writing this letter. It is one of your most personal letters in recent years (public letters) and give us all a better understanding of your vulnerable soul life. It was also stuffed with humour which made me laugh loudly at work making people look at me, but unfortunately these jokes were not easy to explain. It is hard to believe that Robert reads all that is written about him, this is a full time job Robert ! I have always believed that his often distant (read RUDE) attitude is his way to keep his energy to him self in order to survive in his business. This might mean the same as "keeping the aim". Anyway I have never met him. regards orn -- ORN ORRASON University of Iceland Systems Engineering Lab VR III, Hjardarhagi 2-6,107 Reykjavik Tel 525 4699 (UI), (2nd) 589 9111 (PTI) Fax 525 4937 (UI) (Prefix for Iceland = +354) E-mail: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is: Web: http://smyrill.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ Subject: Re: 5 points Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:44:20 EST From: John Saylor Hi How nice of you [Fripp] to write to us. Thank you. > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / > enthusiast / fan and the musician? vampiric [you must have seen that coming]. > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan > expect of Robert Fripp? I expect nothing. I hope that he will play well, tour occasionally, put out recordings, and continue to grow as a musician. Also, I expect him to bring the Soundscapes [or some variant] to Boston, since I will forever regret having missed him when he did his first such tour and came to Detroit in the late 1970s. > Since 1969 I have received reviews, articles, interviews, > commentaries, and > letters from fans and enthusiasts numbering in the thousands. > Since it > began, I have scanned and read Discipline / Elephant Talk. > I don't see how anyone would want to read > it all for fun. I don't either. I have nowhere near as much at stake as you do, and I have been skimming it [ET] lately, because so much of it is drivel. > 5. Actually, I am very grateful for the level of public support > which has > enabled me to remain a musician, or at least a guitarist, for 38 > years. My > own feelings towards this public are intimate, yet utterly > impersonal. And sometimes personal. And I am grateful that your sonic adventures have filtered their way through the music industry into my hot little hands. You have inspired me through your music and through your willingness to be guided by your own concerns in the face of society's and the music industry's expectations of you as an "artist." If you feel like returning the favor, tell me/us- what's next on your plate? -- John Saylor MIT E40-335 617.253.0172 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 13:12:18 EST From: Mike Stack Subject: Robert's comments and other things.. Good morning! Well, morning for me anyway... I've got a lot to say in regards to the last digest, so I'll just get started... agower at netcom dot ca said: >B'BOOM proves as always that good live KC will always be better than studio >KC (If Fripp knows this why does KC even bother with studio >albums?). Probably because Fripp has often said that both the love letter and the hot date have their merits, with the first being the studio and the second being the live show. Now this is his quirky analogy (typical of Mr. Fripp I'd say), not mine, but I see where he's coming from. I love _The Great Deceiver_ boxed set, think it's spectacular, but how would I be able to appreciate fully what they do on songs like "Starless" or Larks II without a difinitive version of it, a studio version to show me how they evolved through their live shows? "Starless" in particular is great because you get all the embryotic versions of it. >THRAK ATTAK is >frankly very difficult. I can't imagine anyone saying that they whole >heartedly love the entire album (but in this forum somebody probably >will!). A theoretical experiment that I can't comment on obejectively not >being able to display the listening intensity and concentration required to >fully comprehend the players' performance intensity and concetration. I rather enjoy _THRAKATTAK_, and am of a mind to say it is one of the better things KC has done over the years, but here's an explanation of my viewpoint: 1. I love improvisations, I'm a jazz musician of sorts myself (if Mr. Fripp there ever needs a trumpet player in the future who would be more than happy to jam with him, my email address is above...:), and find improvs to be the highest form of art, especially the freeform stuff that Crimson has done with "THRAK" (the song). 2. It makes lots of noise and pisses off the neighbors in college, whose idea of original music means rehashing the Beatles and calling yourself Oasis. 3. As music, it is one of the more compelling things I've ever heard, the complete lack of structure which seems apparant on the surface is really false, it's one of the tightest pieces of improv I've heard, and makes for an interesting listen. While I prefer _THRAK_ (the album) to _THRAKATTAK_, I will listen to both, as the mood hits. And one Mr. Robert Fripp said: >2. Stop arguing about Fripp's attitude towards you, etc., and acknowledge >he's the greatest guitarist in the world. Well, only if I have to... Fripp is the greatest guitarist in the world. Which is pretty much true. >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? Depends on the musician I suppose. I see quite a number of bands with a friend of mine who lurks around here (hi Scott...), of differing varieties, size, and talent. Allow me to digress just a bit here into some examples-- One of the bands I've seen a number of times is King Crimson on their most recent tours. Not having been old enough to appreciate them last time they came around, this was my first real chance to see the band live. To me, the band was very far away the first time I saw them, getting closer and more personal each time. Having had the opportunity to meet four of the six in Crimson, and speaking to Trey Gunn at length about music, and the future of Crimson, while I found the relationship to be distant, KC was in a position to be friendly when a chance encounter occured. To me, this is a fairly ideal relationship, as the musicians are somewhat larger than life, but still human. Another band who I've seen (though only once) was Jethro Tull, and I saw them alongside 15,000 or so other Tull fans, as well as seeing the Moody Blues in a similar audience, and David Bowie twice to larger audiences. In all three cases, the artists were unreachable to me, and thus became some kind of separated entity, as if the musician were not a part of my own human community. Valid in a sense, but to me is far too separate from the audience for me to really enjoy the show. Part of enjoying Crimson's shows was talking to members of the band about it, and then further getting feedback and opinions through the internet. The third kind is the very human interaction of a band, such as a band called Eve's Plum (whose drummer bears a striking resemblance to Bill Bruford, though 90% of the known world finds me crazy for thinking this..) who we've seen a number of times. At this point, I'm on a first-name basis with the band, and generally have friendly conversations with them, as a collective or individuals about everything from music to school to women. This creates a very warm environment, but almost a garage band atmosphere, because it's like seeing your neighbors play. Hm, a bit longer than I intended to go on for, but that should do it. >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The fan has the right to hold their own opinion on the music. It is well within my right to say that I find one album or another to be superior/worst than the rest, or that a live show was spectacular/horrible, whatever I feel is appropriate. >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? As a fan, listening to records, I think that careful listening is neccessary to form an opinion. It would not be right for me to make a judgement and call it final having heard something minimally. In a live setting, I think respect for the performer must be shown. In this, the amount of nonsense at a show (i.e. screaming out pointlessly during quiet passages, getting completely intoxicated during/for a show) should be kept to a minimum. As a fan, I have never had a drink at a concert (though being underage may contribute to this, rarely would this stop me if I was so inclined), or had any form of mind-altering substance (though I don't do that anyway) because I see it as disrespectful to the band. Mind you, I find it the same way if the band is so altered as being a disrespect to me. >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your >artists? I expect honesty in music, to be real. It sounds a bit silly, but there's some bands who now seem to be producing music without caring, without believing what they write. If you're going to write lyric about how we should save the rainforests, fine, but you damn well better believe we should save the rainforests. I also expect musicians to wholeheartedly attack a project. I can't stand it when an artist seems to half-care about an album or a live show. No one is forcing them to do it (except maybe the record label..). >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? What I would expect is for Fripp to play "Happy Birthday" for me in Frippertronics next December. :) Seriously though, as far as what I'd expect from Fripp is that he simply continue to do what he has, namely producing the finest music that he possibly can for as long as he feels it inside of him, and to listen to the fans as he has been. Many of us would like to see Crimson do different things, and have posted such on this forum. I consider it a personal favor from Fripp if he reads what we have to say and considers it. >If any commentator did burble and banter about that one, the first question >is probably "What is Fripp's aim?" before moving to how this eccentric / >standoffish / egotistical / rude / kind / brilliant Englishman's behaviour >might serve that aim. To be honest, I would never presume to understand Mr. Fripp, he is one of a few musicians who as a person I find myself totally unable to figure out how I would approach him, not so much because Fripp is standoffish and egotisitical, because I myself am pretty much that way, but because Fripp is one of the musicians I have a vast respect for, and I wouldn't want to look like a blubbering idiot around him. Roberto Galvez said: >Hi !I think few people here talk about 'Lizard' or 'Islands'.Over the years >I had different favorite KC LP's (Red,ITCOTCK,Lark ...) but ,right know I >think 'Lizard' is the most obscure,advanced, mad,and interesting Fripp work -!cut for brevity!- >interesting to enjoy a guitar-sax duel also, as 'The Sailor's Tale' and >'21st century ..'. Peter Hammill's solo career still plays with his old >partner and sax player,David Jackson ,who keeps the spirit of the old VDGG >in many songs. In that case,'Red' is an excellent compilation of all KC >styles (pre-Belew). (I love Mc Donald and Collins playing in 'Starless'). Myself, I must confess a pashion for _Islands_, quite an underrated album IMHO in the KC canon. Love the trumpet work in it as well as the spectacular Mel Collins. That should be all for today... mike "i don't care if the sun don't shine / and i don't care if nothing is mine / and i don't care if i'm nervous with you / i'll do my loving in the winter" -syd barrett, 1968 ------------------------------ From: mumphres at cabq dot gov Subject: RF q's Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:01:54 -0700 I am pleased to respond to some intelligent questions by RF. Most of the stuff I read is not very special. Who cares about whether you say "water pipe" or "bong" and is this the forum for that topic??? There are two natures between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician: the recorded nature and the live performance nature, which each have their special dynamic. In the privacy of listening to a recording, one can experience the upper and lower registers of sound, crescendo and decrescendo, rhythm, and any other musical experience, in a rather formal way. You can also listen to it again and again, experiencing the emotion you feel when a specific piece of music is heard. I feel very differently when I hear Sheltering Sky and Larks Tongues in Aspic II. The other nature, the live performance nature, allows the audience into the space with the musician, such as the post I recently read about RF's performance in the station at Bath. A level of intimacy can be achieved between the musician and the audience / enthusiast / fan. I feel very a very different dynamic when I hear a studio version of Larks Tongues in Aspic II and a live version of the same. The notes and rhythms are all there, but the level of intense emotion of a live experience is incredible. The rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan. A very difficult question. Many fans would argue that they have a right to not only listen and participate in a live concert (by being a part of that emotional experience that I described), but to offer the musician the respect to play the music that the musician wants to play, rather than what the audience wants to hear. I have been to some concerts where the musician promotes a theme to the concert, a vignette leading musically from one space to another. I have also been to concerts that are a collection of songs/hits by the musician. It is the musician's right to perform what he / she wishes, than what the audience demands. I was at a Bruce Cockburn concert a few years ago, where most of the audience kept cat calling for "Call it Democracy" and other of his more political songs. He refused. The concert was not about that. I was very pleased that he didn't cave. What if KC was to have a concert based on the favorite pieces of the musicians? The audience may indeed hear a great deal of the pieces of music ( I have a great reluctance to call KC music "songs" since very few are "songs" ) but a satisfying experience can be achieved for both musician and audience. That's a direction that I might choose if I was performing. The responsibilities of the audience include that same respect of musicians, to be polite! (so many audiences demand, grab, etc. from the musician. How unpleasant a sensation. I do not choose that type of behavior for myself.) I would say that the audience can be vampiric in that fashion. The performance is already a very tiring experience for the musician; to have all that on top of it would add to the stressful situation. What I expect from the musician is that that musician continually challenge themselves musically, and me, as an audient, challenge me both with the music and the experience. I enjoy performance art for this very reason. When I compose music, I try for the theme and variation approach. When you listen to Baroque music, the theme is evident throughout the piece. I like that idea very much, and KC continually does that in their music. One riff flows into another, and the original comes back through the course of the performance. I do expect the performer to communicate with the audience on some level, either through the music, or through themselves. That doesn't necessarily mean antics. After all, a live performance is an entertainment for the eyes as well as the ears. Miles Davis came to my city a year before he died, and kept his back to the audience the whole time. My feeling about that is if you would like to not share with the audience, don't do live shows. If you are offering something to the audience, the audience will be appreciative. No one is so great ( and I love Miles, as much as I love KC) that any negative behavior by the musician is acceptable. So from Robert Fripp I would expect these things as I have endeavored to explain. I don't really care what he does in his private life, that is his business. If he occasionally cops an attitude toward a fan, don't we all. If he continually had a bad attitude toward his fans (and his post clearly indicates that he does not) then I would let him know of his responsibility as a public musician. The audience factor is part of the whole business of music. And Robert, I agree with your statement from Musician many moons ago, concerning bootlegging at live performances: "You can only lose your virginity once" I agree wholeheartedly with the experience of the moment with live performances. That is what they are all about. (An interesting note about that quote: I came across it on an album I picked up at a Collector's Show for $7.00. The album is called "Indisciple: Mining Rocks" and has an interesting melange of KC music, including the two tracks performed on the Fridays program after Discipline was released. The label on the album is for a Gospel recording, indicating to me that what I had purchased unopened was a boot. I keep it as an indication of what bootlegs are about, and why RF feels so strongly against them. Thanks, Robert. Keep your ideals. ------------------------------ From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Response to Mr. Fripp's Survey Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:10:50 -0800 (PST) Here are my responses to Mr. Fripp's questions: What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? Having played both roles myself, I feel that the musician delivers a performance and the audience receives it. If a good relationship develops, it's usually because the audience likes what the musician is delivering and thus delivers positive energy right back at the musician. What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The audience has the right to accept or reject what is being offered by the musician; no more, no less. The audience does not have the right to make any further demands; such as a change in personality, fashion sense, taste in sweets, associates, hair cream, etc. Too many people focus on the personalities rather than the music; such people don't really care about music. I personally feel a performance is most ideal when the audience is not paying for the performance; then the audience doesn't even have the right to demand a refund. What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast fan? The audience should let the musician "say his/her peace" without undue interruption. "Undue interruption" includes demands for "Freebird" or other songs (unless the musician is explicitly playing a cover gig), loud talking/laughing, the throwing of CDs/vegetables/etc, etc. What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? I expect my artists to tell my what a wonderful person I am and how I inspired their latest compositions, kiss all babies in sight, and... Just kidding. All I expect of the artist is integrity in their work. We fans have a way of picking up on insincere artists. For example, if King Crimson should decide to devote their next album to polka music, fine with me, as long as they are _sincere_ about it. What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? See my answer to the preceding question. Paolo Valladolid *----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ *----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at waynesworld dot ucsd dot edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:40:11 -0800 (PST) From: Eliezer Kaplan Subject: Responding To Robert The Frippster said: >2. Stop arguing about Fripp's attitude towards you, etc., and acknowledge >he's the greatest guitarist in the world. Or, at the very least, one of the better ones... > >3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these >questions: > >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? The 'fan' patronizes the musicians who can add an extra dimension to his life. The musician ought to do their own thing and hope it catches on. > >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To buy records and attend concerts. The way the musician reacts to that (or the lack thereof) is up to the musician. > >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? Not to act like a bunch of assholes. > >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your >artists? Beyond living up to certain high musical standards, not a whole lot. Just consider the public personas of the likes of, say, Miles Davis and Charles Mingus- if you can move somebody with your music, who cares? On the other hand, if an artist is TOO much of a jerk he'd better have extremely superior musical skill to make up for it. > >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? Do your own thing (although more work with the likes of Keith Tippett might make for an interesting listen...). > >My personal approach is to either read everything or nothing. In between >can be harmful. If you read nothing, it doesn't reach you. If you do read >it all (pretty well) probably the net balance (in a love / hate, nice guy / >creep way) simply balances. Unless you have lots (and I mean LOTS) of time on your hands, you'd probably be better off just choosing a random sample. > >In all the comments on "Fripp's 'tude" I don't recall anyone commenting >that my onstage and offstage behaviour might simply be practical, and in >some way serving my aim. Also, that this is itself part of an ongoing >exploration and learning curve for me of how I do what I do. As long as you can keep learning, keep exploring. This is probably the best approach to take- for the musician and also the rest of us. Believe me, Robert, for every jerk that you might have offended, there are hordes of us out here who know that a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. EK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:47:00 -0500 (EST) From: Nameless to the Goddess Subject: Fripp's message So, here is my contribution to ET 329 which, I suspect, will be a digest dedicated to replies to Fripp's message. After the message, I think I have a handle on why people find him rude/ standoffish/etc. I think I had a suspicion before, but now I can talk while having something to back me up. You notice that Fripp talks about the relationship between "musician" and "listener." What is the job of a musician? To make music (not to *sell* music, but this is a flaw in our society). Only to make music. It's in the definition. The listener is one who *listens.* Only. Not to be friendly. Being friendly is what "friends" do, and doesn't enter into this relationship. When Robert is in his musician role, he is in that role. It is his focus. I'm sure he has other more personable roles, but when he is being a musician, he is not one of the other. What a lot of us are used to, however, are artists who are not nearly as organized or focused. Your friend in a local band, Bela Fleck, Joe Straczynski, Mike Portnoy, Victor Wooten, these people are a bit fuzzy in comparison. They'll be being a "musician" or a "writer" at the same time that they're being "just this guy." We might like this better, but it is not our place to dictate how Robert, or anyone, organizes his life, because he, like all of us, is still a "free man." Sinister Minister <*> Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 DREAMS OF TAKING THE VEIL--a rollercoaster reality ride ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:40:40 -0800 From: Jason Bell Subject: Re: Robert Fripp's Posting I have a feeling that this message is going to be a bit "hit and miss", but I'll give my opinion. >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? The musician IMHO should challenge, inspire, create mood and create thought, all at the same time. My aim as a listener is to think along the lines of what was going through the musicians mind at the time, whilst they were playing/recording a piece of music. My job as a musician is to get certain messages across to an audience. I've battled hard with it for the last twelve years (9 yrs on bass guitar, 3 yrs on Chapman Stick). There are days when it works and days when it doesn't. Robert : Are there times after any performance that you have come away thinking that your music hasn't reached the ears of anyone ? I find things such as Soundscapes refreshing after a long days grafting over a hot PC, shouting down the phone, meetings with other people. Soundscapes certainly create a mood, one that I find wonderful to read to. Soundscapes then take on a new angle for me, they are connected with a way of living, not just another CD to put in the machine whilst I read my email. I wish there was more music around, I ended up improvising my own on tapes. The musician's output should be a extension of your soul, it's something that you can't touch, but it will stay with you forever. Who'd want to take away anything as powerful as that ?? >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? Any person has the right of free opinion on what they thought of a persons musical output, but only with supportive evidence. There's no point turning round and saying "Oh, it's rubbish !", just becase they don't like the person. (And I know this has happened to Robert in the past, as I read in the THRaKaTTaCK Tour Programme). >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? The key responsibility is to listen. If nobody listens the artist's output will die. >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your >artists? I expect development and I also expect the musician to be satisfied that they have got across onto CD, tape, video the emotion they wanted to convey in the first place. >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? I don't expect anything. I wait for the new material to arrive, then I listen. If I expect too much, I will be upset that my criteria have not been met, not the musician's. I don't think that I am very good at conveying an opinion to the person that has inspired me for the last five years, probably in the same way I didn't handle the presentation of my CD to Trey Gunn outside the Shepherds Bush Empire last year. Finally, Sorry Robert, but I must ask, what do you expect from me as an audient/fan ? Regards Jason Bell EMAIL : xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com HTTP : http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xdr44 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:22:00 -0600 From: gtaylor at heurikon dot com (Gregory Taylor) Subject: the estimable Mr. Fripp replies Beyond taking as *my* discipline a serious consideration of Robert's questions to his audience (I hardly qualify as a rabid follower/completist collector - I merely host a radio program which includes Mr. Fripp and his cohorts' output as a part of its stealth recruitment program for the music of the Present Age in its many forms [see URL http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html for more on this] and have found Mr. Fripp to be among the most consistently articulate musicians of *any* ilk I've encountered. Thass awl), it seems to me that what I find extraordinary about his remarks is the notion that he's actually willing and/or able to subject himself to the combined inertial pull/drag of a huge reading fan audience and *still* be able to contemplate his own future rather than the concensually hallucinated time-delay version which musical fandom routinely involves. Such a noise filter is particularly unusual in an age whose so-called "enabling technologies" seem to encourage us to reconstruct ourselves as a kind of sum of all the best selves we can determine by snooping for the sake of some narrowcast marketing efficiency. Such an ability to "listen to the quiet voice" must be a comfort to have and a tremendous chore to nurture and maintain. Gregory Taylor/MarCom Manager/Heurikon Corp. gtaylor at heurikon dot com PH:608 831 5500 *------------------------------------------- Powerful Products for Communications *------------------------------------------- http://www.heurikon.com *------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 15:17:25 EST From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: Answers to Robert Fripp's questions The answers to all of these questions are all very subjective and will, of course, vary from person to person. And well they should! Music is a highly personal medium. For the musician, the music should be used to circularly inspire and entertain, and to express. The musician must write that which he wishes to write and/or that which entertains and/or inspires him. The listener/fan/receiver/etc must listen to and support any musician that entertains and/or inspires him. Or he must not. The fact is, the audience can do whatever they want. They can "Hoot" during Soundscapes if they want to, though this is a violation of common courtesy. If the other audience members wish to bludgeon the violator, they may, though this has nothing to do with the musician but much to do with group dynamics. And I really do believe that it is as black and white as that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:02:42 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself Subject: Audience/Performer relations After seeing RF's post regarding audience/performer relations and roles, I felt compelled to offer a few observations. A couple of years ago, I was at a gig by a very highly regarded musician (not Fripp, nor a member of his immediate musical acquaintence, but one in a very similar sphere of operation in terms of both musical accomplishment and fan recognition/devotion). I was waiting around after the gig for a chance to talk to him, standing by the side of the stage while he listened back to a DAT of the evening's performance. After several minutes of waiting, I can remember thinking to myself, "Come on, I paid $**.** dollars for this gig, I should get a chance to talk to the guy!" And shortly thereafter, I realized, with some degree of horror, the train of my thinking on this matter. Fripp himself has often commented upon the connection between professional musicians and prostitutes, in that both make a living by selling something which is (hopefully) very close to themselves. This fact raises no end of problems, one of them being the situation I described above: The blurring of the distinction between getting access to someone's music and getting access to the person themself. If you buy a ticket to a show, you're buying access to that artist's music -- *not* to the artist him/herself. If they choose to do some sort of meet-and-greet scenario, then clearly they're inviting audience interaction, but this is *not* an obligation they're under simply by virtue of their being in the same bulding as the audience, and it's a function and an exchange very much removed from the actual performance of the music. In the scenario I described above, the musician in question immediately stopped listening to the DAT when he spotted me, and came over to talk to me for a minute or so. This was an extremely generous gesture on his part; it was also completely unnecessary and beyond his obligation to me or any other member of the audience. This was one of the last times I tried to meet a musician after a performance. One of the only subsequent occasions actually came backstage at a Crimson gig during the summer of 1995. Some time after the gig, the band (minus Fripp and Gunn) emerged, and as they were finally making their way to the tour bus, I asked Bruford if I could ask one question. He agreed, although it was plain that it wasn't exactly at the top of his list of things he wanted to be doing. Nonetheless he was quite polite and considerate -- again, something he was under no obligation to be. In spite of his candor, I came away feeling a bit ashamed of having sought him out in the first place. A few minutes afterwards, I saw Fripp peering out at the small crowd of us left from some distance away, with a look on his face which suggested a curious mixture of bemused curiosity and sheer animal terror. If some semblance of these two instincts was indeed present in his psyche at that moment, then I presume the latter element won out, since he shortly thereafter departed in a van out of a side entrance, unbeknownst to most of the group. One of the members of the adoring throng who spotted him making his getaway from us actually chased the van down the street a ways and knocked on the passenger-side door window where Fripp sat, whilst the van was stopped at a traffic light. The reason I mention all of these anecdotes is to underscore the lenghts that some people will go to in order to try and create a connection with their musical idols, regardless of however inapprorpiate this endeavor might be. A prominent singer/songwriter with a rabidly devout fan base recently observed (this is a paraphrase): "Some of my fans seem to think that just because they've had a significant experience with my music, that they then need to have, *or should have*, a significant experience with me personally. And it just can't happen." At this point, I've basically sworn off of trying to meet famous musicians in an unsolicited manner for several reasons, the foremost being that any musician, no matter how brilliant, is still just a human being, just a person in the end. Shaking their hand, having them sign an autograph, or saying something nice to me isn't going to make me a better human being or a better musician. But recieving a less than gracious welcome from them in response to an unsolicited request for friendliness can color one's perception of their music in an unfortunate and inappropriate manner, which has no real bearing on their music in and of itself, or upon my own relationship to it. I saw Crimson again a few months afterwards in LA at their infamous House of Blues gig, and as I stood in the audience a few feet from the front of the stage, the point of the above observations was driven home in a very strange and tangible way. Being close enough to see the looks on the musician's faces when something went wrong (I'll forever grin at that raised eyebrow RF produced when a stray bit of ambience crept into one of the silent breaks in "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream"), hearing the drum sounds coming from the kits themselves rather than a PA, turning a corner in the club and accidentally running across the California Guitar Trio warming up backstage while I searched for a restroom: This all underscored the fact that these were real people playing a real gig in a real club. And doing a very, very fine job of it, as well. But no otherworldly energy from another dimension, no inhuman feats of daring. No real mystery, as they say. And certainly nothing that I would have gotten anything more out of had I accosted Fripp for a handshake and an autograph afterwards. In closing, I'll paraphrase a remark made by a famous jazz musician some time ago: "Man, we play the gig, and women be coming up after the show, wanting to go home with you, and you just think, 'Damn! Didn't I give you enough up there on stage?'" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:33:15 -0700 From: gondola at deltanet dot com (E.B.) Subject: Re: Fripp's spaciness Robert Fripp wrote: > >1. Harvey Keitel and Kevin Spacey should play Fripp in "King Crimson: The >Movie", in alternating scenes. Who cares if anyone's confused? I guess we know who enjoyed Bunuel's "That Obscure Object Of Desire".... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:42:36 -0500 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Organization: Reality Online, Inc. Subject: long reply to Robert Fripp In reply to: > Subject: From Robert Fripp [snip] > 2. Stop arguing about Fripp's attitude towards you, etc., and acknowledge > he's the greatest guitarist in the world. You are certainly my favorite guitarist -- but art does not, I fear, lend itself as well to comparative, quantitative measurement as other (a)vocations such as bricklaying or running. It is possible to identify with some accuracy the fastest 100 meter runner in the world at a given point in time, or to-date. The greatest guitarist is much harder to nail down, for the potential criteria by which to measure these more complex disciplines are infinite and infinitely debatable. I really like some flamenco guitarists: it would be as silly to compare you to them as it would be to compare you to a bricklayer. But I have certainly spent the most hours listening to your music, and derived the most pleasure from your playing, and get the most delicious sense of anticipation looking forward to hearing something new from you, or seeing you in concert. So, solipsistically speaking, you are the greatest guitarist in my world. > 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these > questions: > > i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast > / fan and the musician? I think it is a complex relationship, if not a complicated one. The elements I perceive are: 1. Customer and vendor -- the transaction considered beneficial to the vendor (who gets the money -- bad management deals excluded from consideration *grin*). 2. Entertainer and entertained -- the transaction considered beneficial to the entertained (this is the other side of the value equation begun in item one, above). 3. Artist and audience -- the transaction considered beneficial to the artist. The audience here must be considered distinct from their other roles as "entertained" and "customer", and artist distinct from "vendor". I recognize that this is contestable. I propose that a musician can sometimes act as his own audience (e.g. one's humming to oneself), however the presentation of art to the public -- to strangers -- is perhaps the act that distinguishes an artist from a hobbyist. Thus the audience, by taking the time to examine the art, provides a service to the artist -- the service of transforming the maker of art from a hobbyist into an artist. This transformation can extend across normal boundaries of time, for example reaching into someone's past and retroactively turning them into an artist long before their work was public. 4. Producer and consumer -- the transaction considered mutually beneficial. Exclude financial arrangements discussed above. The musician creates something that the listener wants, filling a need. The consumer validates the work of the musician, providing feedback (through applause, media such as this and by buying albums and attending concerts etc.). Critical attention is part of this transaction. 5. Musician and instrument (Relevant to live performance only) -- transaction potentially beneficial to the musician. In this item I propose the during live performance, one important activity taking place is the musician "playing" the emotions and movement of the audience. An enthusiastic audience is like a fine guitar. An HORDE audience, well, poorly tuned with a warped fret board. It is assumed that the player enjoys this playing, and derives pleasure from audience reaction. You, Mr. Fripp, might have a different attitude towards this item than many musicians -- however that is for you to say. Comments attributed to you re. a "vampiric" audience relationship to the detriment of the performer would suggest that this is so -- other comments such as "a concert is like a hot date, an album like a love letter" would suggest that you do like concerts. I'd certainly be interested to know. 6. Transformer (musician) and transformed (listener). This transaction beneficial to the transformed. The other side of the value equation in number five, above. The release of self-conscious thought, and immersion in real-time, subconscious reaction to external, overwhelming stimuli provides a cathartic release from stress similar to the "annihilation of self" sought by many eastern religions. This can take place in live performance, or listening to recordings. I do very much like your comparison of studio work to love letters, and live work to a hot date. I do listen to USA and B'boom, though, so wonder of that makes me a peruser of pornography *grin*. > ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? 1. Good sound quality. Notable King Crimson disappointments for me have been "Earthbound" and the muddy sound at the Mann music center in Philadelphia last summer. All albums since then have been acceptable to great, and the concerts in Manhattan 15 months ago and Asbury Park last summer were sublime. 2. Adherence to a published schedule and substantial performance. Solo concerts perfect, HORDE problematic vis a vis start times different than published (I missed the first 15 minutes or so of HORDE in NYC) and sometimes short sets. 3. Value in publications -- i.e. new material or significantly different presentation in new CD's. 4. Bottom wiggling, leaping about, cavorting, smiling, juggling etc. are not required of a guitarist in my humble opinion. These activities DO in fact make the musician better at item 5 above. However I think that, just as it is ok to have one person play the drums, and another play the guitar, it is ok for a band to delegate the job of playing the audience to a front man. King Crimson have given this job to Adrian, who does it very well. Tony and Bill and Pat help him. Trey seems to be more in Robert's model -- focusing on his primary instrument almost to the exclusion of the audience. I believe that this focus is part of what makes Robert's guitar playing my favorite guitar playing. John Entwisle is not reviled for standing still while he plays for the Who. I want you, Robert, to adopt whatever pose and lighting etc. you need to in order to play your best. 5. A focused performance. The artist should be trying to perform to the best of their ability. Variation is inevitable so don't sweat it, but do your best each time, given the circumstances. 6. Seats with enough leg room. I am 6'6" (1.95 meters) tall, so just thought I'd throw this in as a lark ;-) > iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / > enthusiast / fan? 1. Respect for the medium the artist is employing. This might mean not talking (or yelling "Bruford" and "Free bird") during quiet parts of the music. It might mean dancing if dance music is being played. 2. Respect for the safety of the musicians. Throwing CD cases would be, for example, considered bad. 3. Respect for other audience members. If everyone in the place is sitting -- then sit with them. 4. Respect for the intellectual property of the artist. Don't tape shows if asked not to, don't copy albums for friends, don't counterfeit tickets, don't buy bootlegs: in short don't steal from the musicians. I will point out that this is sometimes not perfectly easy to do. I bought a few CDs that I thought at the time were legitimate imports, only to learn later that they were bootlegs. Should I throw them away? Would you like me to mail them to you? > iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your > artists? Well, I don't really EXPECT anything except when a concert is scheduled, or a CD issued. I have covered what I expect from these, above. If you decide to disband King Crimson I will be very sad, and disappointed -- but you certainly do not OWE me anything. I covered most of my expectations above, under "rights". This means either that I think I have a right to all that I expect, or that I expect no more than the minimum. I can't tell which it is -- can you? > v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > Robert Fripp? Again, I have covered my expectations. Why don't I turn to hopes? I hope that you make more King Crimson music. I hope that you make more music outside King Crimson. I hope that you continue to challenge me and lead me to new appreciation of innovative music. I hope that you and the other members of King Crimson are able to survive the possibly damaging comments of people like myself, who, given the medium for public expression of Elephant Talk, will use it. I hope you respond to this message. I hope you continue to teach, so more phenomena like "The California Guitar Trio" will appear to broaden the choices I have in the kind of music I love. I hope that the current lineup of King Crimson continues for a long time -- I like it a LOT. [snip] > Occasionally I receive a letter, or see one in ET, that gladdens my heart: > someone has actually seen how it works! Clean feedback is a joy, a reward, > a friend. It is impersonal. For what it is worth, this is what your audience is looking for from you in concert -- feedback. A reaction FROM you to their reaction TO you. I think that I perceive just such a reaction in your music. However, others either do not agree with me, or want the feedback in the same medium in which they deliver their input to you -- motion etc. As I hope I have made clear, I don't expect you to change, nor do I even hope that you change. I just thought that you might find some understanding of their desire and frustration in this, your own insight. > 4. Very little in my life is arbitrary. *SMILE*. I don't believe you. Perhaps very few of your conscious actions are arbitrary. I do believe that. I strive for that myself. But life has a way of constantly happening all over my deliberateness *grin*. > In all the comments on "Fripp's 'tude" I don't recall anyone commenting > that my onstage and offstage behavior might simply be practical, and in > some way serving my aim. Also, that this is itself part of an ongoing > exploration and learning curve for me of how I do what I do. I have stated before (here in ET) that, while I do have a sort of vague desire to meet you, I have no idea what I might say to you should this in fact take place. "Thank you" is about the extent of it. I don't imagine that anecdotes about my dog, or tales of office politics where I work would grab your attention in a 30 second encounter behind a theater in Wilkes Barre. I am not an artist, so have nothing to offer you except thanks, applause, validation of your work, and a few bucks spent on CDs and tickets. You owe me no more than you already give. Perhaps your behavior is measured by others not in terms of its utility or a priori meaning, but in contrast to how your peers conduct themselves. Perhaps the general population of music fans has grown accustomed to musicians who at least to some extent take the time to sign autographs, exchange banalities etc. with their audience after shows. One does hear of your doing so at soundscapes presentations -- in what way do you consider these different from King Crimson concerts? There is another aspect that I have only just realized -- but perhaps young musicians hope that your power in the industry might be harnessed for their benefit if they can get you to listen to their music and introduce them to a label, or publish them on DGM. Does this happen? Are you presented with cassette tapes etc.? > This is an alternative approach to "Fripp's a jerk, so who cares?" or > "Fripp's a genius, so how can we know?" lines of enquiry. > > If any commentator did burble and banter about that one, the first question > is probably "What is Fripp's aim?" before moving to how this eccentric / > standoffish / egotistical / rude / kind / brilliant Englishman's behavior > might serve that aim. Mind reading is hard for me. What is your aim, sir? > 5. Actually, I am very grateful for the level of public support which has > enabled me to remain a musician, or at least a guitarist, for 38 years. My > own feelings towards this public are intimate, yet utterly impersonal. And > sometimes personal. > > Sincerely, > > Robert Fripp. > And once again, thank you for the music you have created and published, which has given me so much pleasure over so many years. -- Rick Bunker rick at bunker dot com http://www.bunker.com/~rbunker PGP keyID = B6CB9C4D Original keyserver (most keys are on it) is at : http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:45:02 -0500 (EST) From: KB305 at aol dot com Subject: Response to Fripp query 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these questions: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? For me, it is characterised by two opposing beliefs: (1) That what the artist offers me is what he chooses to offer me, and that's what I must be satisfied with. That is usually simply the work itself, but often includes words, such as liner notes, opinions, or posts. And that the work is often filtered through the corporation that manufactures and markets his work, and pays him (someday) for it, thereby reducing or eliminating the artist's intent. And it is my role as 'fan' to accept those offerings and take whatever I seek from them. Because of the distance and 'links in that chain', this can sometimes be satisfying, sometimes frustrating. If it is satisfying, it is usually the work alone that makes it so. If it is frustrating, I may lose interest. (2) That what I seek as a human being is often more than what is in the work itself. Even when the work itself is rewarding and satisfying when taken internally, I often want to know about the source of the work. I want to see the tree from which the fruit comes. I know that the ultimate aim for myself as a musician and most of the musicians whose work I admire is those moments when the music is playing the musician. Yet the musician is always somehow present. Knowing that, I want to know the musician too. Extracurricular items, such as interviews, opinions, and internet postings help. But none of these would substitute for a good look into the eyes. ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To have access to whatever means the artist uses to show himself. This always includes the work, usually includes words, often includes performances (but many artists do not perform), and may include personal appearances, but only if the artist chooses to do them. iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? To stay within the confines expressed above. To not make access where it is not. To respect the boundaries of the artist. If I see the artist backstage, I will certainly ask, in the way I would wish to be approached, for the autograph. But I can take 'no' for an answer. If I see the artist at dinner, I let him eat. iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? To honor and cultivate their muse. To not self-destruct. To grow. To make themselves heard once in a while. If I let an artist in, I expect them to not abandon me. They may, however, take me somewhere I haven't been before. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? My expectations are based on my experience as a fan of some 25 years: Robert Fripp may or may not write new KC songs and record them with KC. I was surprised to learn a few years ago that KC was once again about to be a real recording and performing entity. He may or may not record more work alone. He has been known to disappear from the eye and ear of his audience. KC may or may not tour again. I was ecstatic to be able to see KC, for the first time in my life, in 1995. Twice. He may or may not express himself in the press. I am always delighted to read him, from the Musician series, to the Diary, to the notes in the Great Deceiver and Frame by Frame, to Elephant Talk. On a level closer to the ground, I expect him to appear alternately irascible, wise, grumpy, untintelligible, mystical, elliptical, hilarious, and full of shit. Or he may not appear at all. For me, his presence is a gift. Some days are my birthday, some are not. Kevin Brunkhorst ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:45:36 -0500 (EST) From: jhe at psulias dot psu dot edu (Jeff Edmunds) Subject: Answers to Robert's questions 3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these questions: i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / enthusiast / fan and the musician? I see the entities 'musician' and 'audience' as two elements of a triad whose third component is Music. If any one of the three demands too much room in the relationship, there is not enough room for the others. In such cases the whole becomes unbalanced. (Dissatisfaction on all sides usually results.) The triad musician/audience/Music is bound together by two things, listening and silence. When either of these is lacking, Music is absent. (On the whole, I have found Music to be an infrequent visitor to the large concerts I have attended, in which musician and audience trade barrages of more or less formless noise.) ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The concert-goer has a right to a relatively comfortable seat from which vantage point the concert can be heard and seen. The concert-goer has a right to leave the concert at any time and request a refund if he or she feels the quality of the performance is inconsistent with the ticket price paid. The purchaser of recorded music has the right to return his or her purchase for any reason, provided the purchaser has neither damaged the goods nor unfairly reproduced them for his/her use. (This right will vary according to the policies of your local record store.) iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The audience / enthusiast / fan has the responsibility to be attentive to the performance. (Different people interpret this responsibility differently. Many feel obligated to Make A Lot of Noise in what amounts to a ritual display of enthusiasm, by applauding, hooting, whistling, stamping, cheering, whooping, yelling, etc. Depending on the exact moment such behaviors occur, I personally can find them invigorating, amusing, irritating, or unforgivable.) iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of your artists? Nothing. v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of Robert Fripp? Nothing. (In this I am never disappointed and often pleasantly surprised.) Jeff Edmunds ------------------------------ From: "Manir Donaghue" Subject: Fripp's Q's - some tentative A's Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:07:31 -0000 >3. Would ET readers be kind enough to consider, and respond, to these >questions: Having never before been set homework by a major guitar icon, the temptation is far too strong to resist >i) What is the nature of the relationship between the audience / > enthusiast >/ fan and the musician? Mutually and unwillingly (in cases), parasitic. Degree varies according to a) Pretentiousness of artist b) pledged undying affection of enthusiast c) degree of self-importance of "fan" >ii) What are the rights of the audience / enthusiast / fan? The right to do pretty much what they like within the confines of an audience situation providing that it does not impinge upon the rights of other audience members, or performers. The right not to like the product (recorded or live) that they have purchased/attended/listened to, but not the right to ascribe any responsibility of their dislike towards the performer/musician/artist. >iii) What are the responsibilities and obligations of the audience / >enthusiast / fan? An overriding obligation/responsibility to allow the performer/artist/musician freedom to express themselves without imposing their will or preferences. A responsibility to support the livelihood of the artist/performer/musician by buying/supporting that individual's work through legitimate channels where those channels are available. An obligation to approach the work with as open a mind as possible, and to be frank, sincere and in criticism and praise, where either is due. >iv) What do you personally, as an audient / enthusiast / fan expect of > your artists? Expect? Nothing. I hope to like the work that they do, and/or to find in that work challenges and/or questions which make me think about the work. Besides, they're not "my" artists. The phrase "your artists" implies a possessory relationship which I believe does not exist. >v) What do you personally, as a KC-RF audient / enthusiast / fan expect of >Robert Fripp? As above - it would be presumptuous in the extreme to expect anything of an artist with which I have no relation other than that of "fan". If he produces work which I like, all the better for me. If not, that is his prerogative, and his alone. And there, for what it's worth, is my "humble" opinion. It may sound terribly uncontroversial, but I am on this list, and those of other musicians that I like, because I am interested in their work and the opinions of others who share that interest, and I am, like probably everyone else here, profoundly grateful both to Mr. Fripp and all present and former members of King Crimson, for providing me with their music. Manir K Donaghue ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #330 ********************************