Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #325 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 325 Thursday, 2 January 1997 Today's Topics: HAPPY NEW YEAR! Eddie Jobson 'Theme of Secrets' Cd Trade available Live at the aquarium yet another Adrian Letter Interactive music making, an revolutionary idea. Fripp in Alphaville remake Re: Michael Brook The Trey and Tony Show Adrian is not Bragging Re: Elephant Talk Digest #324 & Adrian.... Van der Graff Generator Re: Hot air elitism Sunday All Over the World/Sheet music Request for opinions Live in Japan Laserdisc String Quartet I'm late on discussing Belew's post... What's good for KC SAOTW/Fripp&Summers Tribute Album Options, Crafty question Re: Critics Adrian redux Okay, okay... Criticizims and Our Right To It. Newbie Bait (more on Belew) Adrian Belew Video gifts Lyrics On Easy Money (Live Versions) Cross/SAOTW/other Composer A. Dehonestis adrian belew Composer A. Dehonestis on Bridge Between CD. Is Santa Claus any good for Christmas? Descriptions of Robert Fripp silly discussion ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR! Wishing you all a happy a prosperous New Year. By the way: after this issue, the "Adrian" thread is off-limits. Toby ------------------------------ From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: Eddie Jobson 'Theme of Secrets' Cd Date: Fri, 27 Dec 96 13:14:00 EST Whomever was looking for this Jobson 'theme of Secrets' cd please write me I found a copy for you. (Of course I knew I would once I deleted the e-mail!!!!!! Keep the Faith (In the music) and buy the new Porcupine Tree cd 'Signify' Ken Brown (brownkj at imsint dot com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:34:08 PST Subject: Trade available From: alstew at juno dot com I have on cd Fripp's Soundscapes, 1999. Live in Argentina. I will trade for anything "crimson". E-mail me back at: alstew at juno dot com God bless, Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:38:06 -0600 (CST) From: Alicia Sepulveda Subject: Live at the aquarium OK, I got the Brook live album (which isn't a ltd edition, whoops) and I'm pretty sure it's a drum machine. I agree it sounds pretty real but that's mostly thanks to Michael's very original, shifting and humane programming. Bass? Well, one of the songs (Ultramarine, I think) in particular has a really slap bass kind of sound and some bassy effects pop up throughout but I'm pretty sure it's all triggered from the guitar. Great album! 2 thumbs up. Pablo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 01:12:35 -0500 From: Onthethree at aol dot com Subject: yet another Adrian Letter I used to think that this was great site, but with all of this useless Adrian bashing, I've decided that it's a waste of my time and phonebill to read this if people are going to continue to harp on this ridiculous topic. I don't have time to read a lot of immature, unfounded criticism of someone because you don't like his voice or some other stupid reason. Shutup and let the guy play his guitar in a band he loves to be in. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 14:04:27 +0000 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering Laboratory Subject: Interactive music making, an revolutionary idea. Hi folks now it is 1997 for KC and the world is changing with the help of interactive technology on the web. This is changing the way we work and might also change the way artists work. I have an idea. KC could colloborate with fans in writing some songs. Step 1: Put some DAT samplers (from Dec. sessions) in RealAudio format (or MPEG) on the website. Step 2: Let the fans listen and comment. Step 3: The interactive writing process should now run automatically with the help of ET. The result could be an KC song which is beyound critisicm. I know many will critisize this because the artist should have the rights to do what ever he likes, the artistic freedom. My arguments are like this: The real-time critisicms of the listeners will stimulate the artis to new levels and encourage them to reach higher. After all KC plans to play their song ideas in front of few audiences in order to get some feedback for further writing. Listeners might even add their own solos (je , it's my time) This is what KC tried to do with the CD WROOM Besides KC is a progressive band. ------------------ P.c. RF appeared on the cover of DOWN BEAT in ca. june 1985. It is VERY FUNNY photo with him smiling wearing a cowboy hat. That photo must be JPEGedded and put on the website. I have somewhere a copy of that mag. -- ORN ORRASON University of Iceland Systems Engineering Lab VR III, Hjardarhagi 2-6,107 Reykjavik Tel 525 4699 (UI), (2nd) 589 9111 (PTI) Fax 525 4937 (UI) (Prefix for Iceland =3D +354) E-mail: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is: Web: http://smyrill.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Fripp in Alphaville remake I'm pretty sure that the remake of Jean-Luc Godard's Alphaville with Fripp as the protagonist mentioned in the last ET never really happened, but Godard himself did make a sort of sequel to the film that came out in limited release last year, called something like "Europe Year 2700". (Don't think Fripp was in it, but you never know.) ------------------------------ From: Ron Harding Subject: Re: Michael Brook Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 14:44:34 -0500 (EST) > > Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 18:33:10 -0500 > From: Emuguy5830 at aol dot com > Subject: Michael Brook > > ... > Also, what are Brook's other solo albums like? > rgds matt c > If you liked the Aquarium disc, you'll love Cobalt Blue, the studio albu from which most of Aquarium was taken. Cobalt Blue also features both Enos, James Pinker, and others. More recently he has done some collaborations on the Real World label: "Dream" with mandolin player U. Srinivas, and "Night Song" with singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. "Dream" also prominently features Trey Gunn on the first track. Both are excellent, with lots of Brook's Infinite Guitar and rhythm loops. And you don't have to like Indian music to like them. They are mix of eastern and western styles, but still have enough of the familar western structures to be enjoyable to western ears. - Ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 19:06:08 -0800 From: Jason Bell Subject: The Trey and Tony Show Luis Cravo Wrote : >1-i like very much fripp and kc but,adrian belew has a big important >rule,in this KC history .could be possible discipline/beat/three of >witout AB and tony levin? off course not. Good point, and I wouldn't have taken up Chapman Stick. I think the Stick has played a major part in anything RF has put together since 1981. >i like the double trio ,but i can say that i prefer tony levin on stick >tham trey gun ,Tony levin as lots of years of experience. I hold Trey and Tony with the highest respect, to compare them is not a thing I would attempt to do. During the TRHaKaTTaK tour I saw both London shows, stood in front of Tony one night and Trey the next. I wish they would do more duo Stick/Warr Guitar stuff, the piece on the video was beautiful. Anyway, I'm off to play my Stick ! Happy New Year Jason Bell (Please note my new Email Address) XDR44 at dial dot pipex dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 14:43:23 -0400 From: Burning Bus Subject: Adrian is not Bragging In our forum Adrian Belew's value to King Crimson was publicly questioned. Adrian cared enough to respond with a detailed accounting of what his roll is in KC. In ET#324 Tefkros Symeonides whined about AB's supposed pretentious nature. This represents the worst in criticism -- take someone to task then bitch about the semantics of their response. Telling it like it is will always offend somebody who's looking to be injured. I don't know another musician who could cover Adrian's entire gig in KC My first post has been fun Chad Kinsey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 15:28:35 -0500 From: "Steven W. Sthole" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #324 & Adrian.... In ET 324 Toby wrote: > One thing I'd like to mention: starting 1997, I am going to be editing ET > more strictly than I have done in the past. > > This is in response to comments to me from readers that the signal/noise > ratio of ET posts is worsening, and has been steadily worsening for a > while. Please, toby don't do this thing! Although I too grow weary of such posts, isn't censorship a worse consideration? Although I won't begin to say that I understand what a monumental task it is to moderate this letter, surely it exists for all of us. I get a little tired of some of the sillier aspects, like this K.C. motion picture thing (especially when it's clear that Gary Oldman deserves the role of Fripp), but come on, can't we have a little fun here? True, the slights and criticisms against Adrian got out of hand, and now the thread that is running in response to it and his defense is more like a bungee-cord. But after all, what else would we talk about? If this list exists for Crimheads, let it be so. The non-Crimheads who worm their way in and bring up irrelevant issues like 'is Adrian good for Crimson' will soon tire of pushing our buttons and slither back to alt.prophecies.nostradumus or wherever it is their heart truly belongs. Disqualifying a post based upon some vauge qualifications makes me a little uneasy. Kick back on New Year's Eve, have some champagne (if that's to your liking) and remember what this list is really about and who it's for. It is sad that some *&^%$*&&*^ !! so-and-so's caused such ballyhoo, anyway. My whole take on this: I remeber back before Discipline's release when I heard about the new line-up, and someone said that another guitar player other than Fripp would be in the band. I said, 'what!!?'. This was certainly a first, as, I believe Greg Lake once commented, that nobody ever plays guitar in Crimson other than Fripp. However, the rest, as they say, is history and Crimson history is certainly richer for Adrian having been there. 'Nuff said. I hope all Crimheads everywhere have a wonderfull new year. Peace! sws at indra dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 15:36:24 -0500 From: "Steven W. Sthole" Subject: Van der Graff Generator This is not exaclty a Crimson post, but related to Fripp or so-called 'progressive music' I think in certain ways. I am trying to locate anyone who markets the old Van der Graaf albums on Compact Disc. Old and recent release by Peter Hammill are readily available, but I would like to find the following on CD: H to He (who am the only one) Pawn Hearts The Least We Can Do is Wave to Each Other Vital (Live) If anyone knows where these albums are available in CD format, please e-mail me privately. Thanks. Peace. --sws at indra dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 16:31:13 -0700 From: gondola at deltanet dot com (E.B.) Subject: Re: Hot air elitism >From: Art Cohen > >With almost any musical group that inspires a devoted audience -- e.g., the >Grateful Dead, King Crimson -- there are always certain individuals, who >usually have *no* experience as a performing musician (based on my own >encounters) who feel the need to prove that they're a more "critical" fan >by slagging this or that. So now we know that any non-performing music fan who has misgivings about a band with a devoted audience is a pompous fool. What a terrrrrribly clever (and pompous) notion. >They seem to think that the fans who embrace the entirety of a band's >output without criticizing this song or that song are just being stupid, >and by slagging off a certain band member or a particular number, they can >demonstrate that they're more "sophisticated" than that. Unfortunately, >they usually do so with such idiotic blanket statements (like "Adrian Belew >does nothing for the band") that they totally belie any pretense of musical >knowledge. OK, you heard Art, everyone. Don't dare to be ambivalent about any of Crimson's music -- not even a single song. And if you do feel ambivalently about this or that BandWithDevotedAudience tune, you're only doing it to falsely feel superior. It's impossible to sincerely dislike said tune, unless you're an idiot. >The other strange phenomenon, which can be related to the above, is the >"fan" who thinks that the band would be better if they catered to his every >whim... somebody who's probably never even been in the same *room* as any >of the bandmembers (excluding concerts), yet who knows exactly what the >band needs to change in order to "improve" their sound. Such people are so >completely idiotic that they need no further discussion. So in order to have a worthwhile opinion about a band's music/direction, you need to spend personal time with the musicians? Sheesh, what lunacy. >The beautiful thing about the post-1981 Crimson is... THEY REMAINED >PROGRESSIVE! While groups like Yes, ELP and Genesis were either breaking up >(out of entropy) or turning to radio-friendly pop music, King Crimson has >remained the only high-profile "progressive" rock band worthy of that >title. And what's so automatically great about being progressive? There's lots of progressive music which is horrible (more often than not, in fact). Anyway, King Crimson is far less progressive than they used to be, strictly speaking. A lot of the Thrak-era stuff is really more avant-garde than progressive, and that's fine with me. Since prog-rock is such an outdated genre, Fripp chose to take Crimson in a more modern direction that was just as sophisticated. Good for him. >From: lucius at linex dot com > >Frank Zappa once said, "Rock journalism is people who can't write >interviewing people who can't speak for people who can't read." > >Consider that the next time you aspire to to the role of music critic. >Shut up and enjoy the music. That oft-quoted comment was rather flippant, and really shouldn't be regarded as anything but a cute sarcastic quip. Just a tasty soundbite. If rock fans couldn't read, well, I doubt this digest would be too interesting. And presumably (unless he was a complete ass), Zappa didn't believe that no rock musicians are articulate. Use your own arguments. Just quoting someone isn't enough. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:04:39 -0500 From: "Jeremy P Lakatos" Subject: Sunday All Over the World/Sheet music Two subjects: First, I've never seen Sunday All Over the World anywhere. This is probably the case with a lot of people. So you'll have a dearth of mentions. In fact, I know nothing about this project. Second, does sheet music for KC songs exist anywhere? I know the cool thing is tab but guitar is not my instrument. jeremy ------------------------------ From: "Alias" Subject: Request for opinions Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 20:10:35 -0600 I like much of King Crimson's 80's material and all but the more pop-like songs from Thrak. I'd like to hear more Fripp but I don't want to buy anymore CDs that I can't stand. I'd like some ideas on what to buy next. I like Exposure, the first half of God save the King, Lark's Tongue in Aspic Part II was the only thing I likes from listening to that CD in a used CD store. I want to avoid things like Soundscapes 1999 (my refrigerator makes a more pleasant noise), the second half of God Save the King (sounds to mechanical). I guess I want someone to tell me that songs x,y, and z sound very similar to Vroom, breathless, Mary, Exposure, Under Heavy Manners, and several other songs that all sound completely different. I don't like the early KC songs I've heard - they sound too dated, too early 70s art rock for me. I like songs with humor. Belew's "O am what I am" is the most perfect song I have ever heard (or ever will). I would appreciate an email or two with your ideas. I'm more interested in finding another perfect song than I am in saving money. It is possible to achieve the aim without suffering. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:50:24 -0500 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Live in Japan Laserdisc At The Artist Shop I've had a number of inquiries about a laserdisc version of the Live In Japan video. In my recent conversation with Michael Tedesco I've been informed that at present there are no plans to release a U.S. laserdisc version of this video, just the VHS version. However, for those who simply must have laserdisc, we can get the Japanese import. Be warned, though, that Japanese import laserdiscs are always expensive. Our price for this laserdisc is $74.99. We've also had inquiries about the Yes laserdisc of Keys to Ascension, their live SLO performance back in March. Again, this is presently available only on Japanese import for $134.99. This is a 150 minute concert. It is my understanding that there will be a US laserdisc release of this possibly in the summer (I'm not positive on this timeline). But if you absolutely cannot wait, we can get it. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 02:44:45 -0600 (CST) From: Alicia Sepulveda Subject: String Quartet In response to Michael Garnice's inquiry about a new string piece played during the last tour... well, I saw it in Mexico rather than Europe but I think I'm the one you're referring to. The piece in question was played on the Sunday, August 4th (?) concert. After Matte Kudasai if I remember correctly. It was not Sheltering Sky, which wasn't played that day. I'm now pretty sure it was an improvisation rather than a new composition. It was quite free and very melodic, which made it a bit more memorable than most recent improvs.. Tony's bowed doublebass was particularly good. It all sort of reminded me of the opening to Exiles. Or maybe The Night Watch without drums. In short, a piece I'd like to hear again, which I probably won't. Ah, the memories. A rather nostalgic Pablo Happy 97. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 09:33:37 -0500 From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: I'm late on discussing Belew's post... ...but I've been away for the past week or so. When I first read Adrian's post, I had a gut response to reply. But I didn't. There was something about Adrian's post that bothered me, but I couldn't put my finger quite on it. After reading people's replies, I realize what it was. The post was basically telling us "look, if you don't even play a musical instrument, or are in a band or write songs etc. etc. etc. where do YOU come off criticizing me?" A thread similar to this was on the alt.music.yes newsgroup. Just because you are NOT a musician doesn't necessarily mean you are not allowed to appreciate a person's musical output. Does that mean that those who are nonmusicians are not allowed to criticize anyone who releases an album? A couple of quotes from the last few ET's: >Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:23:49 -0700 >From: lucius at linex dot com > >Frank Zappa once said, "Rock journalism is people who can't write >interviewing people who can't speak for people who can't read." > >Shut up and enjoy the music. >Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:10:38 -0500 >From: CmnSnse at aol dot com > >The responses in ET321 were welcome, and we need more of them. I adore the >democracy of the internet, but, just as if we were all at a KC concert, we >have a concomitant responsibility to, as a group, tell the hecklers to shut >up. So you're saying democracy is great, as long as people can tell others to shut up? None of the posts on ET can be listed as "journalism." This is also not a concert. A person that doesn't like this line-up (for whatever reason) is not going to pay $40 to heckle the band. This is a FORUM for people to discuss King Crimson's music, likes, dislikes about the music (and dislikes are as important as likes), as well as Crimso-related material. >Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:44:52 -0500 (EST) >From: Steven Sullivan >Kind of sad that none of the 'dog pound' seems to realize it's possible to >believe Mr. Belew is a fine musician while not liking aspects of his KC >work. I think that stuck out for me was the "dog pound" part. If that's the mentality of ET, a lot of people will be jumping ship. Personally, I have been scanning most of the newsletters for the past 4 or 5 months, and haven't found much to jump into discussion-wise. And lastly, these responses for Mr. Swansorb: Although it is very difficult right now to conceive Fripp not wanting Belew in the band, iof he did at somepoint want a different lineup and called it King Crimson, would we cry foul? It is very unlikely he'll just switch Belew for, say, Sammy Hagar (to use the VH references) but if he did and put out viable music, what's the deal? I apologize for the bandwidth, but I've had 3 or 4 ET's to respond to. Lastly, let me say this: I AM a fan of Adrian's work. All of it. If there are people who think Adrian doesn't fit in with Crimso, fine, listen to the other records that don't have him on it. Post all you want, it will NOT change my opinion of the band. And as for the "you go, girl" attitude, it just wastes bandwidth, and makes you look silly. If you agree with Adrian, that's fine, but do it intelligently; show the "Adrian-bashers" how to write a critical post. I am assuming that in the next ET or so Toby will probably make this matter a closed issue, but I thought I would say these things before he does. Hope you all have a Happy New Year. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 09:37:45 -0700 From: Keith Eagan Subject: What's good for KC Its is certainly not the barrage of Clap Trap that has been seen floating down the sewage canal of the latest threads. Never have I seen so little intellectual thought applied to so much. I suppose some of you would have critical opinions on brain surgery as well. I think if we would put our collective and non-pertinent opinions in the round file and get on with listening it would result in what is best for KC. How can you listen with so much noise? Adrian communicates more with a scratchy working of string-adjusters than has been posted here in an entire month of Decembers....A.B. don't change a noisy fret! Robert, keep playing that heavenly thing, Bill keep that battery flowing, Pat keep Bill on his toes, Trey keep growing your great, Tony - the bass world would not be the same without you. Collectively you guys are tops, and for me to add any critique on how, what, who and where to play it would be inappropriate, unwelcome and in the 1300's would have been interpreted as blasphemy. Today it is called the music industry. The music industry is bad enough for us all, we certainly don't need to encourage it or promote it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:30:59 -0500 From: Music Library user Subject: SAOTW/Fripp&Summers Happy new year, everyone. First off, I'd like to publicly throw my support the way of Anton, Steve, Michael, and Tefkros. (For some reason, I couldn't get private e-mail to you, Anton.) I've always been ambivalent about these silly "who's good for what" arguments, esp. concerning AB, but after this explosion...let's just say that I still respect AB as a writer and guitarist, but I'm not enthralled with his little maneuver in the recent ET. All of the above names made good points, points I don't need to repeat. Okay, enough of that - my apologies for dredging that up because I am 100% excited about Toby's decision to whittle down ET content, if necessary. To get to more meaty subjects, I'd like to respond to Mike's post in #324 about Bewitched and SAOTW. I've posted on Kneeling At The Shrine before...it's a terrific album. After hearing plenty of Trey Gunn w/Crimson and solo, it was fun to go back to SAOTW and hear just how much he contributed instrumentally. (The same with the Toyah album Ophelia's Shadow - Trey plays several parts that I originally thought were guitar.) As for Bewitched, I've always liked side two better. Very moody, good ambience. I Advance Masked is a worthwhile listen, too. "Hardy Country" has a bit from (or that was to become) "Neurotica" (hey, I thought that someone else wrote that!). "China - Yellow Leader" has a great Fripp crosspicked riff. Andy Summers is no slouch either (I recommend his Synaesthesia if anyone likes him). Anyway, these two collaborations are very fun listens. Finally, I'd like to say a small thanks to everyone who participates in putting this digest and webpage together. No matter how polarized the readership can get, it's nice to have a forum and information source where Crimson fans of all persuasions can stop by. Take care. chris m. univ of tenn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:03:12 -0500 From: ReelMusic Organization: artmusic at gte dot net Subject: Tribute Album Options, Crafty question Hi...I know doing a KC tribute album may be quite a legal hassle. Even just sending our demo versions of the songs to each other requires some sort of royalties (although if it ever happens, I got 'Formantera Lady' or 'The Night Watch') How about we just circulate our bands' original songs to start with? Then, if we want to, we can start the KC task. Perhaps someone with some time could collect the tapes of the songs..as well as a blank..from each person. That person could make a master tape, copy it on the blank, and send it back. The people sending the tapes in the first place pay all postage...I'd love to hear other projects and how KC has influenced their music. I have a question for any Crafties out there...do you use alternate picking or sweep picking, and whats the reason behind it?? Just wondering, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:18:32 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Re: Critics Lucius wrote: : Frank Zappa once said, "Rock journalism is people who can't write : interviewing people who can't speak for people who can't read." : : Consider that the next time you aspire to to the role of music critic. And as Richard Thompson once said, referring to the denizens of *his* internet mailing list: "They're even worse than professional critics. They're amateur critics." --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:27:04 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Adrian redux : >and when I say write I don't just mean write some chord changes, : >but ALL the melodies : >and ALL the words, : : Is it not pretentious of him to argue that he is the very centre of King : Crimson, that he writes everything (which he obviously doesn't) and that : all the others depend on him? It would certainly be pretentious if he had said that, but he didn't. All he said is that there's a big difference between throwing together some chord changes and writing a complete song. Something that many amateur musicans fail to realize. : >and if you can then perform those songs : >consistently and fluidly : >at the front of the band : >keeping in mind that often times the guitar parts : >are in a different time signature from the singing : >and the singing is often in a difficult range : >and if at the very same time you can provide a plethora of guitar styles : : Is it not pretentious of him to praise himself as a performer, and again : call himself the "frontman of the band"? He *is* the frontman of the band. Where have you been for the last 15 years? He stands in the front, talks to the crowd, and sings all the lead vocals. That makes him the frontman in my book. --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:51:13 -0500 (EST) From: George Hall Subject: Okay, okay... -a tiny plume of smoke, and The Lurker appears... Re Adrian post ("If you think you can..."); Adrian, Alright...since you insist, and only since you seem to feel so strongly, I'll do it. Please reply when convenient, I can give Bob the address to send the plane tickets and fill him in on the New Directions I have in mind for the band... (just kidding) BUT SERIOUSLY; It occurs to me that, while on the one hand I have some sympathy for Mr. Belew's annoyance with some of the comments on his playing/performance/existence, I have to question just exactly why he reads ET, which is quite obviously a forum for enthusiasts to either share opinions or...go off. For me, this often means scrolling through a lot of drivel w/the Delete key pinned, as well as finding information &/or insights unavailable elsewhere. I've generally assumed the place of Mssrs Fripp, Belew, et al, is to Do Stuff, while the rest of us discuss its significance, availability & why it's not as good as the 70's or 80's (or will not be as good as the 90's), etc. So some people lament the passing of former Crimsons...well, these things exist every bit as much as the years that spawned them. This is why we have "records" (tho I personally feel that Mr. Fripp should have changed his own name, perhaps to "Robert Smedley" after Exposure, since his later work has proven so...different). And some people don't like Belew. There've also been posts by persons perplexed at seeing Steve Cropper rated as a great guitarist (to which I may only observe; John McLaughlin plays WAY FASTER than Lightnin' Hopkins; also, a Carrot is not only longer, but proportionately narrower than a Tomato). In the words of Generation X (as seen in big, glossy magazines); "Whatever, dude." I subscribe because it informs & amuses me. God help the artist who hopes to learn something of their work from their work from an i-net newsletter. Oh yes, the above IMHFO. gh ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Sun, 29 Dec 96 23:31:42 -0500 Subject: Criticizims and Our Right To It. I was not going to respond on the AB posting but the following passage in ET 324 prompted me to contribute a few words: >> defends himself. I wonder what the reaction would be if Fripp came along >> one day and posted a message saying "stop arguing about my attitude towards >> you etc. and acknowledge that I am the greatest guitarist in the >> world!". Maybe he is the greatest guitarist in the world, but does he have >> the right to come up and say that? Just as we ET readers have the right to criticize as above, Mr. Belew and whoever have just as much right to post their feelings as well. Nuff Said. Les Labbauf Email: leslabb at postoffice dot ptd dot net There is a fun and easy to use fixpack for WIN95, it's called OS/2 Warp http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 18:50:46 -0800 From: cheska at teleport dot com (KernsFunk) Subject: Newbie Bait (more on Belew) Well, count me in the minority who where unimpressed by Adrian's post a few days back. However, I don't think this will lower my opinion of him, as it did others in the minority. I have been a big fan for 15 years and w ill remain so. Rather, I think I will ascribe this is a newbie swallowing flame bait and overreacting. Much worse, however, are the unimaginative cheerleading and immature personal attacks that have taken place in this newsletter. Grow up people! Steve Kerns ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:11:45 -0800 From: Ramon Montoya Subject: Adrian Belew Regarding the debate over Adrian Belew. I personally feel he is "good enough" for King Crimson. However, this is merely a question of one's subjective taste which are neither good nor bad. King Crimson is not about one person. It is about a group of artists with similar and different creative ideas. It's not about "who's better" it's about the music and what it does to YOU. If you don't like it don't listen to it, purchase the album or see the shows. I think many comments have been petty regarding Adrian's contribution to KC. Remember this is a BAND!!! A collective agreement between ALL the members. I think it's unfair to place the responsibility of the bands change in style soley onto Adrian Belew. Remember, KC's music is the product of a BAND--a collaborative effort--and not a solo artist. An effort that I greatly enjoy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 01:09:42 -0500 From: Stuff4Nick at aol dot com Subject: Video gifts Christmas came and went, I received the Live in japan video for xmas. This is a very nice video. The shakes are few (I don't know who's idea that was[bad]). It's great to 'see' the band again. The sound is good. Trey is never loud enough though. Plenty of good shots.Best of all, there are no wasted shots on the crowd. Just the band. Yes. You need this video. I'm going to get The Robert Fripp String Quartet video. Does anyone own a copy who would like to give an idea to what it's like. Is the lighting good? What songs are on it( Blockhead?)? Does it show Trey alot? Sound quality? nICK m ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 96 07:04:52 UT From: "Efun Moyiwa" Subject: Lyrics On Easy Money (Live Versions) I have never been quite sure of the altered lyrics to Easy Money as performed live (on the USA album for example). It sounds much like "Well I argued with the judge, but the bastard wouldn't budge, 'cause they called me inkey pudge (?), and you never told me *what* you were a minor (?)" If the 'inkey pudge' part is accurate, I presume it is a reference to fingerprinting and therefore a 'past history'. On the other hand, I am very possibly way off here. Anyone here have a line on the actual lyrics here? Many thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 08:47:07 -0500 (EST) From: Sergei Kantere Subject: Cross/SAOTW/other Dear friends, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Khanukah and whatever to all! 1. If you still haven't got "Testing to Destruction" by David Cross, go and get it now. I'm curious why he gets such little mention on this list! Someone has recently wrote about Trey mentioning a possibility that three new members could join the band. I'd love to see David back in. IMHO, his music still has a very specific Crimson quality about it. BTW, what has happened to David's new solo album with Robert's and others' appearnces due this past Autumn??? 2. Maybe it's time for King Crimson Reunion festivals a-la Fairport Convention, where all ex-members could take a stab? Just a wild thought. 3. Regarding SAOTW tour of Europe. Some time ago I ran across a rumour on Toyah's web page that Fripp is aquiring rights to live recordings made then and wants to release them on DGM. Does anyone have any info? 4. Some fellow ETers have wrote to me after my last post (some 2 months ago), with kind advice and offering help, and for certain reasons I haven't answered yet. I sincerely apologize for being so rude. Thank you all and I'll write to you in a week or so. 5. To new KC converts, those unlikely to be familiar with other early prog stuff: why don't you try some Gentle Giant as well. Better start with GG I, or "Aquiring the Taste" and see how it works ;) Best, Sergei Kantere, Moscow, Russia P.S. FOR ADRIAN: Believe it or not, but I have a ceramic mug with words "Happy Birthday, Sergei", and your signature. It was transferred from an open-air cafe bill you've signed last year in Prague for my friends. It was me who converted them all into KC years ago. The only stupid reason I didn't go to Prague with them for this gig was that on the very same day we had Presidential elections here in Russia, and since I work for a media organization, I couldn't possibly leave. We all think you're great. Thanks for that mug! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:18:42 -0800 From: robert mitroff Subject: Composer A. Dehonestis My name is Robert Mitroff. I am italian genealogy enthusiast. I have been researching the Dehonestis name for some time with little success. I have discovered that a certain "A. Dehonestis" co-composed the song "Hope" on the Fripp String Quintet's Bridge Between CD. Do you know this gentleman's full name, residence, or any other compositions he may have. Thank you Robert Mitroff rmitroff at ccnet dot com [ reply directly to Robert, as he is not on the list. -- John ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:08:59 +1000 From: George dot Huitker at Radford dot act dot edu dot au (George Huitker) Subject: adrian belew Dear Toby, ETers, Adrian, An Australian politician once said, "Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody's got one." An artist shouldn't let critical comment of any kind affect them too much. It's part of the game. Having said this, one can understand what probably drove Belew to his posting in ET 320- it is hard to take personal criticism, especially if it is negative. But with an impressive body of work and achievements, and a fantastic new solo album out there for all to digest- just let it speak for itself, mate. It is implied that detractors cannot get up and do what you do- be it for better or worse... And since I've got this far in giving my mere "opinion", Adrian's contribution to King Crimson has been as significant as any member's- to me: very significant. A band's evolution and subsequent achievement is very debatable and very hard to place absolute judgments upon. Debate the music/evolution (and don't be rude because the muzos obviously read these pages) and remember- an opinion is just that. An opinion. George. Canberra. Australia ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 1997 04:45:18 -0000 From: "Santa Claus" Subject: Is Santa Claus any good for Christmas? I've come under a lot of heat for not being able to deliver enough "Tickle Me Elmo" dolls across the world during the 1996 Christmas run. And Adrian Belew's words have truly inspired me now that I've had a chance to cool down from the season. So, regarding the ongoing debate "Is Santa Claus any good for Christmas or what" I have the following response. If you can spend 364 days making gifts which are good enough for the approval of LITTLE KIDS EVERYWHERE; Gifts like SONY PLAYSTATIONS, HOOTIE AND THE BLOWFISH COMPACT DISCS, ALANIS MORRISSETTE T-SHIRTS or TOY STORY VIDEOCASSETTES; and when I say make I don't just mean doing market research, but ALL the sweatshop contracting, and ALL of the television advertising saturation and if you can then take those gifts consistently and fluidly down chimneys that barely fit my my big old ass dimly lit, and out of the view of little kids from all over the world whose parents are willing to pay to put their screaming little butts in your lap, kids who are in different timezones simultaneously and their screaming causes many a difficult pain and if at the very same time you can provide a plethora of annoying reindeer names and sounds and eat God-awul cookies and sour milk from every household and make it all look easy, year after year keeping a smile on your face every waking moment Please, by all means, Step up into the North Pole. I'll offer you my place at CHRISTMAS. I'd be quite happy to sit at the pub and just swill beer with my elf pals. It's so easy to criticize. But as the saying goes SUCK UP or THROW UP. ho bloody ho to you later, Santa *--------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *--------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: mnolan at pdd dot pioneer dot co dot uk (Matthew Nolan) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:27:05 +0000 Subject: Descriptions of Robert Fripp In ET #324, Mike Dickson writes <> Well this is certianly more accurate than a passing reference in a short article/interview with Toyah I read recently in someone else's magasine which described him as a Jazz Guitarists and leader of 60's band King Crimson (!) Well, it made me laugh. Matt Nolan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:10:09 -0300 From: Pablo Alberto Roset Subject: silly discussion Hi ETers: This is the first time I write to ET. I only want to say that I cannot believe how much effort and time we all spent discussing about AB's role in KC. WE make Elephant Talk, so it depends on us to make it better. Please, let's be more creative! Bye, and happy new year, Pablo. [ What an excellent sentiment with which to end the first 1997 issue of ET. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #325 ********************************