Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #324 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 324 Friday, 27 December 1996 Today's Topics: Adrian Adrian again Fingerpaint review in Juxtaposition Ezine Tribute album and more Rock Critique The Adrian Belew Debate.... Critics Re: Immaturity of Adrian's Post and Responses Tribute project live and more Re: The lost continent of Asia Live in Japan '95 Japanese Video Version/RF's requirement Another Adrian message Damage duet, etc Crimzoid Elegy/yet another response to Adrian steve hackett and friends? Music, Not Silly Re: Intellectual Property Rights for Tribute Album On The Subject Of a KC Cover Album Fripps' 'Tude and the Turd Remark ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Subject: Greetings and moderations Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed Xmas. This is the last ET of 1996, and the 71st issue of this year, I believe. Let's look forward to a pleasant 1997 for everyone, and I hope lots more interesting stuff in ET. One thing I'd like to mention: starting 1997, I am going to be editing ET more strictly than I have done in the past. This is in response to comments to me from readers that the signal/noise ratio of ET posts is worsening, and has been steadily worsening for a while. So, posts which basically say "I think sucks" or "Robert Fripp is God" are unlikely to be included in a digest. (Maybe I'll keep such posts for a special "Sucks/God" edition, I don't know.) But I get the feeling that most ETers don't want to be bothered with "Sucks/God" stuff anymore. Anyway, we'll see how it goes. So, see you in 1997 and enjoy what's left of this year! Best wishes to all Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:45:42 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Adrian Don't let the bastards get you down, Adrian. With almost any musical group that inspires a devoted audience -- e.g., the Grateful Dead, King Crimson -- there are always certain individuals, who usually have *no* experience as a performing musician (based on my own encounters) who feel the need to prove that they're a more "critical" fan by slagging this or that. They seem to think that the fans who embrace the entirety of a band's output without criticizing this song or that song are just being stupid, and by slagging off a certain band member or a particular number, they can demonstrate that they're more "sophisticated" than that. Unfortunately, they usually do so with such idiotic blanket statements (like "Adrian Belew does nothing for the band") that they totally belie any pretense of musical knowledge. The other strange phenomenon, which can be related to the above, is the "fan" who thinks that the band would be better if they catered to his every whim... somebody who's probably never even been in the same *room* as any of the bandmembers (excluding concerts), yet who knows exactly what the band needs to change in order to "improve" their sound. Such people are so completely idiotic that they need no further discussion. Now, I'm not advocating a non-critical acceptance of everything Crimson-related -- there are certainly a few Adrian Belew compositions that aren't among my favorites, just as I don't think I'll ever really like "Ladies of the Road" or "Moonchild" -- but I'll say this: Adrian is far and away the best lyricist Crimson's ever had... even when I was 17, Sinfield's and Palmer-James' lyrics made me wince. And while Adrian's "post-Byrne" vocal style may not be everyone's cup of tea, I personally love it. The beautiful thing about the post-1981 Crimson is... THEY REMAINED PROGRESSIVE! While groups like Yes, ELP and Genesis were either breaking up (out of entropy) or turning to radio-friendly pop music, King Crimson has remained the only high-profile "progressive" rock band worthy of that title. One of the key factors in this success, I'm convinced, was Fripp's and Bruford's decision to work with a couple of Americans who had totally different backgrounds than they did. Anybody who thinks Adrian is a liability to the band should listen to "Discipline", Yes' "90120" and Genesis' "Abacab" in rapid succession and then tell me which ones sound dated. And as somebody else said, the current version of Crimson may well be the best ever. Certainly they have once again confounded anybody's expectations that they would sound just like the previous incarnation. Although I never saw the band perform prior to 1984 (hell, I was only nine years old when they broke up after "Red"), the double trio truly does bring the best of every period of Crimson's existence, from the "Lizard" references in "Dinosaur", to the "Larks-Tongues-Isms" of "THRAK". The strangest thing about "THRAK" is how little of the 80s-Crimson "crafty" style is displayed on the album, but they certainly make up for that in concert. So, Adrian, from a devoted fan... KEEP UP THE GOOD^H^H^H^H GREAT WORK! --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:10:15 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Adrian again Anton spewed: > hate to tell you this Mr. Belew, but YOU -- yes _YOU_ -- are > replaceable. Crimson has had many members past and present and there's > no doubt in my mind that the show would go on without you. Gee, thanks for the newsflash, pal. I don't know why King Crimson hasn't consulted you on *all* their personnel decisions. Who the hell died and left you king? > > I'm not saying this because I dislike you. I think you're a stellar > talent, with a great deal of potential for the future. Boy, I bet *that* makes him feel a lot better. Who are you, his music teacher? > However, if you > intend to cultivate respect and goodwill amongst your fans, you better > learn to start rewarding them with intelligent behaviour. Otherwise, you > may find them deserting you as the years progress. Adrian has been cultivating "respect and goodwill" amongst his fans for years by (a) being a great frontman -- energetic, humorous and outgoing while (b) displaying an amazing amount of musical talent and originality. As well as intelligence. If he's lost you as a fan because he dared to dress down the dim-bulbs who have been debating whether he "contributes" to the band (as if anybody cared about their opinions), then don't let the door hit you on the way out. If he keeps up as he has been doing (i.e. just fine, thank you), he'll keep this fan's loyalty forever. > In closing, perhaps you should consult your "pal Robert" and find out > how he would have handled the situation. I think you'll find he would > have taken an entirely different approach. Robert probably would have ignored the whole situation. But if he chose to reply, his writing style probably would have been significantly different, but I bet the message would have been exactly the same: PUT UP OR SHUT UP. --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:44:33 -0500 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: Fingerpaint review in Juxtaposition Ezine There's a review of Fingerpaint's Enormous Swirling Sound at url: http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/finger.htm Fingerpaint are dark melodic ambient guitarists/synthesists and ex-Crafty Guitarists. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * About Juxtaposition Ezine: We're spotlighting some of our favorite types of music. If you feel like you fit in here, send us something to review. We'll review any format. CD, DAT, vinyl, cassette or any kind of demo. There's a snail mail address at the below index page. Happy holidays, winter solstice, new year and whatever else fits - not to mention some new reviews. db 12/24/1996 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you're unfamiliar with us, check out the index: http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/j_index.htm Please be sure to visit out patron ISP: State of Imagination and our friends at the IMMP Music and Arts gallery - links at the above url. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y .. dmb5561719 at aol dot com * .. * ... .* .... *...... . * .. I M M P & B i i n k! m u s i c http://www.virtulink.com/immp/welcome.htm . .. . * .. . . .. . . . . .. .*.. J u x t a p o s i t i o n Ezine * . .. http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/j_index.htm . .. .*.. . .. . ..*. . .. . *. . ------------------------------ From: Dave_Depper at bendnet dot com (Dave Depper) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 18:24:52 -0800 Subject: Tribute album and more Organization: http://www.bendnet.com Hey folks. The prospect of a KC tribute album has always been in the back of my mind and it's great to see people actually getting serious about. My band, Liquid Sound, does very respectable covers of "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, part II", "One More Red Nightmare" and "I Talk to the Wind." Our current project is "Frame by Frame." Let me tell you this: if you are a guitar player, get with another who digs KC (tough, I know) and play the guitar duet from "Frame by Frame" (you know, the one that gets out of sync and comes back again). It is absolutely incredible to participate in. Warning: unless you have a great sense of tempo, you might need a metronome or some heavy duty foot tapping. Anyways, I'd be proud to participate in this project if it ever gets fully realized. We've got access to a recording studio (plus, the drummer is related to the singer from Everclear and knows hi pretty well) and are a pretty crackin' band. To the fellow who wants "Fracture" tabs... hey, look at ET, they've got a whole SECTION devoted to tabs (wow!). AB most definitely sang on "Cage." I don't know what version of the song you are listening to. For the guy who just acquired Exposure, congrats, that's one of my top-5 greatest albums ever. Too bad you've missed out on it for 17 years! It's funny that you mentioned computer soundbytes because whenever I shut down Windows the computer spits out "one thing is for sure, the sheep is not a creature of the air." I just copied it off the album though, no special equipment used. Anyways, Merry Christmas, and hello Patricia the Sister! Dave (the 16 year old Crimson maniac) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:56:02 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Rock Critique Organization: Elephant Talk Tefkros Symeonides wrote... > 1. Fripp (and King Crimson in general) do NOT just play ROCK. Actually, I would tend to say that they do. I think that you are under-estimating what a formless and less-defined musical medium it is. The term 'rock' could be applied to any number of musical styles, and that it bridges the gaps between what is traditionally 'rock and roll' and the myriad other musical styles, from country to Cage, really underlines what a marvellous variety of music it really is. As for Fripp, I'd unreservedly simply quote him as a 'rock guitarist' as against anything else. You are right in that Page, Beck, Clapton et al are 'rock guitarists' as well, but Fripp being able to play a broader base of style than either of them (by far, IMO) doesn't detract from him being a rock guitarist. Being a rock guitarist isn't all strange postures and pouted lips, you know. :) *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration Queries (et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:20:20 -0500 From: David Victor Partner <106470 dot 2071 at compuserve dot com> Subject: The Adrian Belew Debate.... Issue 320 was my first from ET having 'found' KC on the 'God Hides' sampler from Discipline Global Mobile. Since the purchase of that sampler just five weeks ago have purchased: 'Red', 'Thrak', 'B`Boom', 'Beat', 'Three of a Perfect Pair', 'Discipline' and a compilation. I intend to complete the collection shortly. KC music is a revelation. All of it. Each incarnation produced music of such class it outshines most others. Yet even from my basic exposure to the history of the band, from the music I can see the impact Mr. Belew has had to the band. Just as the rest have. But they are a unique unit that has always formed a whole. In each form, all the members were indispensable to that whole. Having seen the Live in Japan video I can only say anyone who doubts Adrians (or Trey, Tony, Bill, Pat or Robert's) contributions should have them totally dispelled. I am converted after only five weeks! Adrian's reaction to the postings is natural. Criticism can be constructive and serve a healthy purpose. But unsavoury, abusive or unsubstantiated attacks are not the reason why we subscribe to ET. Having read Issue 322 I'm sure Adrian will see that the vast majority of ET subscribers have great respect for him and his efforts in KC. I have also seen why I will continue to subscribe, read and (sometimes) contribute. Whilst I have a lot of catching up to do, reading ET will give me a great insight as I listen to the music. Dave Partner Leeds, UK. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:50:56 -0500 From: Reginald Hunt Subject: Snow Job Happy Holidays!! This is an invitation to visit my 'Snow Job 96' web page at: www.tiac.net/users/rphunt and check out three new audio tracks (with TAB) featuring my Chapman Stick. Reg rphunt at tiac dot net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:23:49 -0700 From: lucius at linex dot com Subject: Critics Frank Zappa once said, "Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't speak for people who can't read." Consider that the next time you aspire to to the role of music critic. Shut up and enjoy the music. ********************************************************** Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove. -- Ashleigh Brilliant ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Re: Immaturity of Adrian's Post and Responses Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:28:00 -0500 In Issue 323, Steve Sullivan mentioned his dismay that only one other ETer was unimpressed by Adrian's post and the uproar it inspired. I too was extremely disappointed and unimpressed by the substance of Mr. Belew's message, but, as an original matter, thought I'd save my two cents. Instead, I responded privately to Steve Sullivan. Alas, I've changed my mind, and offer the following "modified" version of my email to Mr. Sullivan, with some added stuff at the end: I couldn't agree with you more about the childishness of AB's post and the rah rah rahs that followed. My impression is that many ETers (and apparently AB) are not interested in, or are incapable of participating in, an intelligent and critical discussion of KC's music. I'm not sure they even understand what a "critical" discussion is. I've seen similar occurrences on other mailing lists, and the problem doesn't speak well for our collective ability to understand the difference between a logical argument and emotional rhetoric. In light of my skepticism, I [originally] elected not to respond to AB's post or the bullshit that followed. I'm sure others feel the same way. I like plenty of KC's music with AB, but songs like "Heartbeat," "Two Hearts" and others really get on my nerves. This doesn't mean that I think I can do better than AB (I don't even play an instrument and can't sing), nor does it mean that I think he's a bad musician. It only means that I'd rather hear a lot of other KC material before I hear many of AB's more "poppy" songs. * * * * As a final matter, I'll try to put this in perspective for those of you who think that my preference for some KC over other KC means that I should get off the list. 1. I love 80s and 90s KC with Adrian Belew. 2. I think Belew is a wonderful guitarist who is an integral, important and, generally, positive element to 80s and 90s KC. 3. I really love mid-period KC (a la Great Deceiver material), and, as a general matter, prefer the material from that period over some of the more "pop" songs that have followed. 4. I really love early KC and, as a general matter, prefer the material from that period over some of the more "pop" songs that followed in the 80s and 90s. Now, if you are deeply offended by my preferences, please explain (i) why my statements mean I should not be on the list; (ii) why they means I should not state my preferences in a forum _designed specifically_ for discussion of all of KC's music; or (iii) how AB's statement, "if you think you can do better, then put your guitar where your mouth is," is in any way a meaningful response to my comments, which have nothing to do with whether I think I can do better. I accept that many of you disagree with my preferences. Note, however, that I wouldn't accuse you of being a Wetton basher, or demand that you get off the list for preferring AB over Wetton, or demand that you get on stage if you think you can do better than Wetton. I accept those differences of opinion, and think ET is the perfect forum for discussing them. ------------------------------ From: afn39111%afn dot org at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:52:14 -0500 Subject: Tribute project As far as permission goes, it rarely seems difficult to get permission from record companies to use their artists works. I've seen covers of Fripp before, by Either Orchestra, Iceburn, others. Usually all that's involved is paying a certain amount of royalties (something like seven or nine cents, my mind is telling me ... wrong, probably) to the publisher for every copy sold. Of course, none of this project will be sold. The older Crimson stuff is still owned by EG, I think, not Fripp. "Red," and "Epitaph" right here on the DGM sampler were used in the same way we would have to. And to people who reject this idea, I wonder: why is it that Rock is so against redoing work? Classical is built upon the idea, and to a lesser extent, but still considerable, jazz. Herbie Hancock's "The New Standard," jazz versions of rock songs, mostly surprisingly good. Mingus Big Band-- spectacular. Everyone does Miles, and Monk. I doubt Coltrane would have been pleased if you'd called "My Favorite Things" unimaginative, noncreative, tribute schlock. jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 22:59:12 -1000 From: Luis Cravo Organization: TELEPAC SA Subject: live and more Hello! 1-i like very much fripp and kc but,adrian belew has a big important rule,in this KC history .could be possible discipline/beat/three of witout AB and tony levin? off course not. 2-and i can say this the 80/81/83/84 KING CRIMSON years are the most important in all aspects. i like the double trio ,but i can say that i prefer tony levin on stick tham trey gun ,Tony levin as lots of years of experience. 3-tony levin is a very talent musician see the work inthe 80`s KC .and live work.He had a major importance in peter gabriel solo carer,i have over 150 live shows ,and i know that tony levin is one of the great musicians in the world. 4-I can find a "red" or "starless" cd the definitive remastered,why? 5-if Jerry marrota end to go to the tour fripp/sylvian ,he would be the 2nd drumer from King crimson. 6-there will be a 3 cd box set at the end of 97 from the 82/84 tour. LC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 15:15:43 -0700 From: gondola at deltanet dot com (E.B.) Subject: Re: The lost continent of Asia >From: Tony Burton > >Hi all, >This recently appeared on the Asia mailing list... There's an ASIA mailing list???? Sheesh, what a waste. I'm trying to forget that band ever existed. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:05:51 +0900 From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (Tomoyuki Ohsawa) Subject: Live in Japan '95 Japanese Video Version/RF's requirement Hi, I've just purchased the original Japanese version (by Pony Canyon) of the Live in Japan '95 (taken from Nakano Sun Plaza Hall in Oct 95 - two days). My first impression was good. The shadiness comes from the fact that the live performance was conducted under very low light availability. All the concerts in Tokyo area last year were conducted with very low light which, according to the Wowow representative (a Japanese satellite broadcast company which recorded the video), was the instruction he got from RF. RF also asked not to do any pre-consultation with the players: that's why the pictures look amateurish - they had to do everything at once live without understand which musician plays which part in what song. This was necessary in order to preserve the tension for musicians to play the best music - not to be distracted by the preparation for video shooting . There are a lot more details explained in the Japanese liner notes included in this original Japanese Video. It is written by Masa, who has a relatively long term relationship with RF for CD/Video recordings. It is apparently him who offered RF the idea of compilation CD Box set, he writes. The origianl Wowow broadcast video was re-aired in Europe for MTV and he writes it was successful. That is why they decided to put that into Live in Japan Video. There were further editings including the music/video mix by Adrian. According to Masa, RF gave him many requirements for shooting the video including the number of video cameras to be used inside and the shooting days (two days). These were difficult challenges to him and the Wowow but after all these requirements were necessary in order to make the live performance the successful one (audience in the hall are important, the video shooting is secondary). Masa understands this. If you look at the video, you can tell that RF gets minimum light. This was also his request. RF told Masa that he can't concentrate if he gets too much lighting. Tom ************************************************** Tomoyuki Ohsawa ************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 09:00:00 +0200 From: Tefkros Symeonides Subject: Another Adrian message In ET #323, "Dan Wasser" wrote: >"Winner", Worst Post: Anton Swansorb Probably can't even tune a guitar Well, I wanted to post something on Adrian's message very much in line with Mr. Swansorb's reply, but I didn't; I waited to see what the general feeling about the message was. And I was disappointed to see that only ONE of the messages in the "reply issue" of ET acknowledged the pretentiousness of Adrian's message. Let's get something straight: up until the time I read Adrian's message, I respected him quite a lot (as a guitarist, as an artist, as the most lighthearted member of King Crimson etc.) and the whole Adrian-bashing thing (which did exist but was not half as bad as it seems to have been now) was getting on my nerves too. BUT on reading Adrian's message, I lost most of my respect for him. Mr. Swansorb's message was right on; I need not repeat his points. Adrian's argument ("if you can do it better...") is exactly the kind of sad, juvenile excuse for being pretentious about your contribution to something that you don't expect from an intelligent adult, let alone an artist such as Adrian. And lo and behold, in the next ET issue there were a couple more messages sharing my opinions. However, there were also a couple of messages in which the "if you can do it better" thing was continued (e.g. the quoted message above). Can't anyone find a more logical or convincing argument to support Adrian? I still think Adrian is a talented artist, but his attitude is something totally different. And from what I've read about Fripp's attitude (towards fans and non-fans) on the whole Adrian is much worse; much more contemptful and pretentious. No-one (including Adrian) has yet given us concrete evidence that Adrian's message was not pretentious. However, I can give you a couple of examples: 1. Quote: >and when I say write I don't just mean write some chord changes, >but ALL the melodies >and ALL the words, Is it not pretentious of him to argue that he is the very centre of King Crimson, that he writes everything (which he obviously doesn't) and that all the others depend on him? 2. Quote: >and if you can then perform those songs >consistently and fluidly >at the front of the band >keeping in mind that often times the guitar parts >are in a different time signature from the singing >and the singing is often in a difficult range >and if at the very same time you can provide a plethora of guitar styles Is it not pretentious of him to praise himself as a performer, and again call himself the "frontman of the band"? 3. Is it not immature of him to use arguments like "PUT UP OR SHUT UP"? IMHO, it is! The point here is most definitely not whether the people who dislike Adrian can play or write as well as he does, but whether in their opinion Adrian has talent or not. In the same way that any King Crimson fan has the right to praise Adrian, any King Crimson fan has the right to dislike him. Once again, let's get it straight that I respect Adrian's contribution to King Crimson. But I have absolutely no respect for the way in which he defends himself. I wonder what the reaction would be if Fripp came along one day and posted a message saying "stop arguing about my attitude towards you etc. and acknowledge that I am the greatest guitarist in the world!". Maybe he is the greatest guitarist in the world, but does he have the right to come up and say that? Best regards, Tefkros Symeonides ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 03:25:23 -0600 (CST) From: Alicia Sepulveda Subject: Damage duet, etc I believe the duet during Darshan that Gordon Emory Anderson was referring to is actually played by Fripp and Brook, rather than Gunn. I do, however, agree that it is an extremely impressive piece of music, that little section. Certainly the most exciting climax on a song filled with them. Many thanks to the person who recommended the ltd. edition Brook solo album. I saw a copy the other day so I'll rush to see if I can still find it. Wish me luck. This fan is totally for the Live in Japan video. I'm probably on the director's wavelength or something, but I found all the blurs and thingies added to, rather than substracted from the music. AND, if the tribute stuff ever comes together, I'm in. 's all, Pablo ------------------------------ From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: Crimzoid Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 19:22:48 -0600 I was just reading "Fanzine For The Common Man", #16, (an ELP fanzine published by David Terralavoro in New York). According to an article called "The Endless Enigma" (which discusses never-released music by ELP), there is/was "a solo piece Carl [Palmer] recorded in the Works period called Crimzoid. In fact it is aptly named as it is a pastiche of King Crimson's Schizoid Man." The article goes on to say that the track was premiered at the ELP Convention in 1995 but that it will probably never be released. (CP seemed to recall it by a different name, though). The fanzine also included an excerpt of a Geoff Downes interview (March 1996): referring to recording sessions that took place 1989/90 with Greg Lake, Geoff Downes said: "There was a version of 'Street Wars' [an ELP song from "In The Hot Seat"] that we did with Michael Giles, the original King Crimson drummer. Michael played on a lot of the stuff." (referring to other Lake/Downes recordings) Also in the "for what it's worth" category: Greg Lake's anthology (due to be released in March '97) will contain ITCOTCK and Cat Food as well as a live performance of 21stCSM (from Lake's 1981 tour, same as the King Biscuit CD). Dan ------------------------------ From: "Ben Miller" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #323 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 08:22:53 -0800 It's interesting to see the diverse opinions regarding KC's different rosters, particularly as regards Mr. Belew. This may be obvious, but I think there are two ingredients which determine the overall sound and the overall impression each version of KC creates. The first aspect is whatever space RF is in at the time, and the second are the particular musicians that RF chooses to collaborate with at that point in time. These two factors are not unrelated, the first having considerable impact on the second. If we accept that KC's music is one of the ways that RF chooses to express his muse, then all versions of KC are correct in their time in that they are authentic musical expressions. Therefore, the question as to whether Adrian Belew is good or bad for KC is irrelevant. Whether one version of KC is more enjoyable then another to an individual is a much better question. Personally, I like the Red era KC the best, but I don't think it's any better or worse then any other version. Okay, under duress I might admit that the Burrell version was lacking, but I digress. As for my opinion on Belew, I like his guitar playing, but I don't care that much for his voice, although his singing in the current KC incarnation is better then the Discipline era band. His lyrics are good, but I still prefer the less concrete imagery of Seinfield and Palmer-James. Happy holidays to everyone! --Ben Miller bmiller5 at ix dot netcom dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 96 19:24:28 EST From: goedhart at citenet dot net (Bernie Goedhart) Subject: Elegy/yet another response to Adrian I know that the "emotion in Fripp and KC music" thread has long run its course, but I was listening to "Radiophonics" yesterday and "Elegy (For Mothers and Children)" jumped out at me as perhaps the most heartbreaking melody ever to come out of Robert's guitar. Regarding Adrian's post (yeah, I know -- I'm late on this one too): I'm a relatively new recruit to the King Crimson enthusiast camp. I had heard of the band, but never heard any of their music until two years ago. "Elephant Talk" was the first KC song I heard, and Adrian's wacky, intense, and driving performance played no small part in the song capturing my attention. Before I had ever heard ITCOTCK or LTIA, I owned Thrak, Vrooom, Discipline, Beat, and TOAPP. Two years after hearing KC for the first time, I now have all of their albums -- including the two boxes and even Earthbound. I treasure everything by the band, but Adrian's contributions hold special significance for me. An incredible showman, an incredible musician, and a vital component of King Crimson. Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 18:36:27 -0600 From: orbis at data dot net dot mx (carlos malvido) Subject: steve hackett and friends? I hope there is a cd with this line up, most interesting one. When Asia came up a couple of years ago I thought maybe they slipped with the keyboard man, putting old buggles and pseudo yes Downes (personally I was thinking about Tony Banks or Peter Bardens). This SH & amigos is probably the strangest and most promising mixture ever since. Hackett deserves better luck, as he has always compromised to real music (like the one KC has always done). Fripp is the king Belew is the best Hackett rules Phil Collins sucks (not that it has a lot to do with this, but it feels darn good to write it down) Does anybody knows how many records has "kula shaker" recorded? This is really a good group, this really sound like a 21st century schiszoid beatles. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Dec 96 21:24:05 EST From: Michael Garnice <74762 dot 304 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Music, Not Silly As the founding member of the Ministry of Silly Threads, I'd like to declare the following topics as being too silly: * Who should and shouldn't be in KC. (You don't get a vote.) * Casting the King Crimson movie. (Very, very silly.) * Fripp is rude/Fripp is nice. (We can now reach the astounding conclusion that he can be either, depending on the situation.) Instead, lets get back to the music. For example: I thought Sunday All Over The World was an excellent album, yet it is never mentioned in ET. Fripp's playing though out is a delight, as is Gunn's and the others'. Recently, I was surprised to learn that SAOTW toured Europe. I would love to see a posting from anyone who saw then live or has heard a recording of one of their concerts. Likewise, I greatly enjoyed (and never see mentioned) Fripp & Summers Bewitched. The 2nd track features a solo by Summers that waddles around amiably and perfectly sets up one by Fripp. This Fripp solo is a joy to hear! I recommend both of these CDs to all ETers. An ETer once posted that on the European leg of the 1996 tour KC played a new string-only instrumental. Can anyone confirm and amplify on this? Was it new material or could it have been the rearranged Sheltering Sky? As far as my favorite show in the Great Deceiver box, I'm going to go off the board and instead recommend Richard's Night Club, Atlanta, 6/23/73. This (relatively) widely available, well recorded boot has the best live LTIA 1 and Doctor Diamond I've ever heard. Each features a great staccato guitar solo, the likes of which only Fripp can play. It also features a tranquil improv that ranks as one of my favorites. The Live in Japan video? I was also disappointed because of the reasons already discussed, plus the absence of THRUM, B'Bish/Prism, and Thela. Also, sometimes, the wrong musician is briefly focused on at the wrong time. (Brought back memories of the pre-MTV days when you would see a group on TV and the shot would be of the lead singer bopping in place instead of the guitarist who was playing a solo.) In short, the video is OK, but not definitive document I (we) were hoping for. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 23:22:09 -0500 From: Nick Bennett Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Rights for Tribute Album Michael Heilbronner wrote: > Without going > into too much detail before it's necessary (i.e., before the project > becomes remotely realistic), the owners of the copyright rights in the > tribute album would have to obtain permission from the CURRENT owners of > the "composition" rights for each KC song that is included on the album. Actually, this is not precisely true. US (and some other countries) copyright law includes provisions for recording of copyrighted compositions, even when permission is not obtained from the copyright holder(s), by the filingq of certain notices and the payment of royalties based on a "statutory rate" (currently $0.0695 per copy for songs of no more than five minutes in length, and $0.013 per minute - or partial minute - per copy for songs of more than five minutes in length). Generally, in cases where the copyright holder(s) give permission, the royalty rate is significantly less than the statutory rate (otherwise, there would be no financial incentive for obtaining permission). However, my respect for Mr. Fripp et al, and for the music, leads me to agree - strongly - that a tribute album shouldn't go forward without KC's approval/endorsement. After all, it ain't a karaoke record that is being proposed here. And, for what it's worth, let me add my band, "One Week In April", into the (rapidly-expanding) hopper for such a project. Although we play in a very different genre (much more acoustic-tinged, but essentially unclassifiable), we are all fans of KC and the various side-projects and solo work, and would be more than up for a "reinterpretation" of some of the songs. Sincerely, Nick Bennett ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: On The Subject Of a KC Cover Album Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:55:10 -0800 I corresponded with Matt Walsh on this, and thought I'd post what I said to him about this in a compilation of the two missives: Good idea! I can't really think of doing it, though, without thinking of Mr. Fripp with his arms crossed, and going 'tsk'. If you think about it, there are aspects of idolization to be sure. From an equally negative point, it might be said that such a compilation might be nothing more than fans playing their heroes' music. I've been listening to KC since the first album, and did a now-lost film experiment to '20th Century Schizoid Man' the summer after I first heard it. I didn't look to Fripp for inspiration until after he'd gone on his own, being a bit of an individualist myself; I've always found a good deal of sense in his monographs, and had read my share of Gurdjieff/Bennett before the 80s were over. I presently publish parts of my musical work on my EarthLight Studios page, the address of which may be found in my signature below. I should probably say that I'm not connected with the Claymont crew, or anyone else at this time, though I'm on their mailing lists. I am probably not so much a fan of RF as a devotee :) I'd like to propose something other than merely doing covers of all of our favorite KC songs. How about those of us who are both musicians and KC fans/adherents producing the kind of music - original, that is - that we normally do? Doubtless the influence would be heard, yes? Of course the copyrights would be less complicated, and we wouldn't have to deal with WB - you know, Satan's label? :) I think most of us know better than to screw with them. In a sense, it might be even more of a tribute, that we can say "Thanks for the music! Look what we've gone on and done with it!" In terms of the kind of cover that *I'd* do, I'd have to cast my hat to the Frippertronics/Soundscapes end of the room, in terms of the style I'm working in right now. Recently for Christmas I gave away a song entitled "4 The World", for non-profit free use only, which can be listened to at http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios/4TheWorld.ra - and I'm working on a similarly-styled audio CD for release later in 1997 called "Songs From A Tunnel". I've always counted amongst my favorite guitar exercises Lark's Tongues In Aspic (I II and III); and, when Vrooom/Thrak came out, came to realize that Vrooom, Vrooom Vrooom, and the others of this set may be guitar work challenges of a kind, set in front of us by RF. Think of the way LTiA unfolds from part to part; it's the same with Vrooom/etc. I had at one point figured out how to play the latest work (don't ask, I play by ear and use other-than-'standard' tuning), but a good exercise challenges you for more than merely the length of time it takes to figure out the fingering. I continue to get a charge out of getting it all right - kind of like being able to play all the way through Side 2 of Tubular Bells. On the idea of covering KC, I have to admit that I've always wondered what a full Big Band arrangement of Indoor Games would do to the General Public. I HAVE done an arrangement of it in Acoustic Delta Blues style, though it's hard to put those Robert Johnson 'whooooo's anywhere in the song. :) Let me then take this opportunity to stake out the song I'd like to do if the cover concept becomes real. "Indoor Games", please! And I'll do it in delta blues style! Cheers, and Happy Christmas / New Year, Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week! * http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:48:12 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Fripps' 'Tude and the Turd Remark Well, I knew I'd get flamed for quoting the musician who stated that a rock critic's job is like choosing your favorite turd out of a toilet bowl. Longstanding members of this list must by now know of my propensity to come up with contentious issues, but let me state explicitly that i do it to make things interesting! Some, however, took my statements slightly out of context, such as in the following post...... >Mr. Anderson, if you think King Crimson is just another "turd," you're on >the wrong mailing list -- try the Alban Berg Internet Newsletter. And get >your head out of your brass "(lit and fig)". Touchy! Many of those who responded to my post sounded a lot like this, overfocusing on a tiny corner of my post. What i was really trying to get at was that, outside of rock, Fripp's reported behavior on some occasions would seem primadonna-ish. I myself lament at how the whole genre of rock is largely ignored by, say, Jazz musicians (and rightly so, if judged by what most easily accessed via radio and MTV). And you can't blame the older Jazz musicains, such as the brass-player I mentioned, becuase they saw rock used as a corporate tool in the 70s in an almost-organized attack on Jazz. No, I frequently defend KC before Jazz-musician retractors, but it does little good. Yes, I point to the odd time signatures and whatnot, and the fact that there's lots of improvisation, but they won't listen once electric instruments kick in. But all this misses the point anyway. The thing about rock is its visceral impact on our emotions and our body (the Beatles didn't need great musicianship to make some riveting music--see my post about Adrian Belew). The thing about KC is that it puts this impact in line with intellect, in part by utilizing complex musical constructs. No, anything that evolves the listener, makes her stretch and grow to hear--that is no turd. And no, this does not always require fantastic musicianship (some of NY's punk scene was about this), but I think eventually an artist must keep up with the pace of his muse through practice, study, and discipline. Yes, KC (and others in rock) are great by any real measure, but so what? We like it, that's what counts. -Emory. PS: I am busy thinking up something else to stir folks up with! ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #324 ********************************