Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #322 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 322 Friday, 20 December 1996 Today's Topics: Adrian Well said, Adrian! Adrian Belew Re: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" silent majority? Ouch, Adrian... Re: Is Adrian Belew any good... Sorry Adrian "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Adrian Belew Adrian - we'll shut up!! Belew & this movie thing three thoughts This Adrian Belew guy Attn: moderator Belew - some editorial comments & sarcasm RE: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" signing off Ref:Message From Adrian Belew Bellows Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what? Tribute, Adrian B, Frippertronics, Rock music An Open Letter to Adrian We Love Adrian Adrian, oh Adrian! Belew & KC The 100th message re: Adrian's response Adrian's rebuttal 2 cents worth Re: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" A response for Mr. Belew RE: in defense of adrian belew The Crimson Rhino King ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ************************************************** A note from the ET moderator ************************************************** Hi everyone. As you might have expected, Adrian Belew's post in ET #320 produced a huge response from ET readers. I hope in the best interests of ET readers, I've decided to group all these posts into this special edition of ET. So, those who wish to follow the thread will find lots of interest here. Those who don't wish to, can simply skip this issue! Whichever camp you belong to, I hope you'll enjoy this issue. Normal service with the usual eclectic mixture of topics, will be resumed in the next ET, which I hope to be able to get out before Xmas. Best wishes to all Toby ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: Christie Subject: Adrian Was that last post from AB real or what??? I am still reeling. Adrian, if you're reading this, I think you're TERRIFIC. Sincerely, Christie ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1996 17:18:27 -0500 From: "Greg Leistikow" Subject: Well said, Adrian! Re:"Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Adrian, As a lurker who simply enjoys good music I've got to applaud your reply to those who feel in a position to throw the proverbial stones. To make an impact AND a living in the music business in not exactly easy, much less to do it in the selective realm that King Crimson, yourself and a handful of others occupy. Thanks for all the great music! Greg P.S. The Discipline show in Indianapolis and the Lone Rhinoceros show years ago in Bloomington were two of the most memorable that I have ever seen. PLEASE bring KC or your own self back to Indiana next time around. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:35:33 -0500 (EST) From: CWA Subject: Adrian Belew All, I just read the message from Adrian Belew on the latest issue of ET. He DID NOT sound happy....and I can't say I blame him. I think it's high time that Belew got the credit he deserves from a lot of King Crimson fans- just for an example, my roomate and I have a running argument in regards to the merits of belew's lyrics. It's too complicated to go into here, but it's just another example of the lack of respect Adrian can get in general. Personaly, I think Robert Frpp is one of the greatest musicians of the second half of the 20th century. Thats not a compliment that I give out to many, and it isn;t a complement I would give out to Adrian. HOWEVER...I think Belew is ESSENTIAL to this incarnation of King Crimson. I think he rocks. I think he is a killer guitarist. And I think it's about time he said so. Way to go Adrian!! Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:52:00 -0500 (EST) From: William T Bajzek Subject: Re: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Adrian, you're an angel. don't let the anal retentives get you down! (ps: if you guys need a 2nd warr guitarist, let me know :) williambajzek|wb2a at andrew dot cmu dot edu|http://phoebe.dws.acs.cmu.edu/~wb2a/ twobirdsonestoneonechanceisthrowndon'tmakemistakestwothievesstrungupon eknifeonecuttwodoorsoneshutonefightonewayoneroadtotakewestandandwaitfr omcooltowarmfromdusk'tildawnfromfluxtoformkneelingontheroadtograceland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:53:57 -0500 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Organization: Reality Online, Inc. Subject: silent majority? All, Since the silly discussion about Adrian Belew's contribution to King Crimson (a follow-on to the silly discussion about Trey Gunn's contribution, which was itself a follow-on to the silly discussion about Robert Fripp's contribution, and no doubt a precursor to a discussion about Bill Bruford's and Pat etc. etc. etc.) and Robert Fripp's "attitude" have now gotten to the point where they seem to have actually hurt the feelings of a person whom I admire, and whose work has given me great pleasure over more than fifteen years, I feel compelled to offer some opinions of my own. To the members of the band that read this, I propose to you that these might well be more indicative of the average opinions among your listeners. Please take the idle chatter of an insulting few with a heaping spoonful of salt. 1. I love the music that King Crimson makes. In my opinion, the music has simply gotten better and better with each album (well OK starting right AFTER "Earthbound"). With each album King Crimson challenges me, delights me, amazes me and gives me a gift of hundreds of hours of intense pleasure. Thank you all; I can't wait for more! 2. I think that the current lineup blows away any other incarnation of King Crimson, or any other version of any other band for that matter. The double trio worked especially well in concert. 3. I have seen King Crimson in concert a dozen or more times since the very early 1980's. The contribution that each member makes is very clear to me. Adrian's contribution to the music is obvious, fantastic and irreplaceable. Adrian's charismatic contribution to live performance is by a narrow margin the most significant (with everyone else tied for second). 4. So, also, are Pat & Trey's (singled out only because they are newer members) contributions clear, obvious and significant, both on album and in live concert. I don't mean to minimize Robert, Tony and Bill's work by mentioning it last -- it just seems that others on this list are mostly habituated to these members of the band, so don't question them as much. 5. I love Robert Fripp's WORK. His music, his leadership in the music industry (i.e. musicians retaining ownership of copyright in their own work), his teaching and contributions to the art of guitar playing each contribute to the quality of the world, and of my life. I don't need to know him personally, or have him smile at me, or exchange trivialities with him in order to love his work. Yes, like others here, I feel that I know a great deal about him, gleaned from his work. However, he knows NOTHING about me, and frankly I am not all that interesting -- I don't know what I have to offer him. There are plenty of Internet software types around, and each of us would probably be more boring than the last to a musician. I find that concerts in which the musicians are more comfortable tend to be the the ones in which there is better music. With this in mind, I'll say that I prefer King Crimson concerts where Robert Fripp is comfortably seated in the back, without too much glare, and safe from CD's flung by imbeciles, not wasting a bit of inspiration on gyrations and leaps, pouring every ounce of emotion and skill and ecstasy through his fingers and into his instrument and into my soul. Let those who don't have the ability to channel all they feel into the guitar do what they must to get all of their excitement out, but Mr. Fripp -- please don't change a thing that you do; it is sublime. Robert Fripp speaks to me via his music; I speak to him with applause. Nothing more is required or welcome -- and that is fine. 6. I derive great pleasure not only from King Crimson work, but also Robert Fripp's solo stuff, Adrian Belew's solo and Zappa work ("Mr. Music Head", "Op zop too wah (did I remember the title?)" and "Sheik Yerbuti" have all been played in my house within the last three days), Trey Gunn's solo work "Third Star" would be worn out now if it were vinyl, Bruford's solo and "Yes" work, Tony's work with Peter Gabriel etc. I have not yet but plan to give Pat's earlier work a listen (no slight intended, just life getting in the way of pursuit of music). Anyone who does listen to the work of each of these fine musicians will instantly find it easy to identify their contribution to King Crimson, and will simultaneously be delighted by a lot of great music. I get take special delight in Adrian and Trey's solo work. 7. Finally, it is their band to manage. If they ever DO make personnel changes or take a musical direction that leaves me cold, I will still have all of the stuff they have done up to that point, and be a richer man for it. I might not buy the new stuff, but that will be the sum total of my right to direct their actions. King Crimson is not a public utility to be managed by democratic process -- they are private individuals taking part in a private, for-profit activity. Buy their albums and concert tickets, or don't, but don't think that it is OK to tell them how to be a band. If you think of them as artists (I do), then you will see that giving this kind of direction to them is even more wrong. Whew! I feel better now *smile*. Thanks for reading (if anyone actually gets to this point in my diatribe). So long, -- Rick Bunker rick at bunker dot com http://www.bunker.com/~rbunker PGP keyID = B6CB9C4D Original keyserver (most keys are on it) is at : http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 19:27:24 EDT From: "Pooh Head Bucket?" Subject: Ouch, Adrian... As if we needed any more proof that the internet was evil... I love everything about being part of this list, but I sometimes wonder if my relationship with KC should include discussion in a public forum where >>THEY can see US too<<... Be comforted, Ade, (and whoever else reads this)- probably about NINETY-NINE percent of us are here because you're part of the magic. The double trio is now KC, and we wouldn't be spending our bucks (and you know we do) to support people we didn't care about. And there are tons more who can't get at a computer (or just don't care to). That said, it's creepy to be chastised (even as a group, even with Adrian's sense of humor obviously intact) by these same people. I guess it's still better than the flip "fuck you" attitude that lots of musicians insist on leveling people with. I'm sure my writing here is as contradictory as the feelings I'm having about all this. But Adrian's little letter did uncork some weird emotions in me, and maybe THAT'S the beauty of our little sewing-circle, here. This is powerful stuff (think of all the people we saw even just on the last 2 tours watching with jaws agape, in tears, experiencing greatness. Describe you?) ...we're still here, rhino-man. And much like Sally Field, we like you- we really like you. whew. Tom Soriano * sorianot at alpha dot montclair dot edu *------------------------------------------ "It's a typical day on the road to Utopia" ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Is Adrian Belew any good... Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 16:59:42 -0000 From: Tom Attix* >From: Adrian Belew >Subject: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" > >Regarding the ongoing debate "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what": ...... >I'd be quite happy to sit at the back and just play guitar with my pal >Robert. > >It's so easy to criticize. >But as the saying goes >PUT UP or SHUT UP. > op zop to you later, > Adrian Belew > >op zop to you later, Go Adrian! > adrian -Tom Attix ___________________________________________________________________________ attix at apple dot com ___________________________________________________________________________ "No, listen, what happened was this: they lied to you, sold you ideas of good & evil, gave you distrust of your body & shame for your prophethood of chaos, invented words of disgust for your molecular love, mesmerized you with inattention, bored you with civilization & all its usurious emotions." --- Hakim Bey, "Temporary Autonomous Zone" ------------------------------ Subject: Sorry Adrian Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 17:32:54 -0800 From: Bruce Selzler >From: Adrian Belew >Subject: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" > >Regarding the ongoing debate "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what": > >If you can write songs which are good enough for the approval of KING >CRIMSON; >songs like ELEPHANT TALK or MATTE KUDASAI, >NEUROTICA or HEARTBEAT, >THELA HUN GINJEET or THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR, >ONE TIME, or DINOSAUR, >and when I say write I don't just mean write some chord changes, I just hope this wasn't the real Adrian Belew. I'd hate for him to think we're all like the boneheads that started this absurd thread. I met the man a couple of times in the past two years, and besides being an incredible musician, and an itegral member of our favorite band, he's also a very cool guy. Just goes to show you that not all CrimHeads are intellectuals. - Sez **************** Visit General Music 101 +===+ o +===+ at | | /|\ | | http://www.concentric.net/~selzler/ |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| |___| / \ |___| - The Road Goes on Forever - **************** ------------------------------ From: "Fred Raimondi" Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:27:45 -0800 Subject: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" > It's so easy to criticize. > But as the saying goes > PUT UP or SHUT UP. > op zop to you later, > Adrian Belew > > op zop to you later, > adrian > Go girl. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 22:08:48 -0600 (CST) From: patricia kilroe Subject: Adrian Belew I don't know if that was "really" Adrian or not, but I do know that Adrian is one of the 'things' i like best about KC. I love his songs (esp. KC songs), love his voice, and love his stage persona --he seems to have a good time on stage, and that makes me feel good in turn. My feeling/opinion dates back to Discipline and continues to this moment, so there's clearly an endearing/enduring quality there. After Jerry Garcia died, there was a strain of Bob Weir bashing on the gdead newsgroup. I hated that, and didn't understand it. I feel the same way about Adrian bashing. Please stop. A.C. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:18:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: Adrian - we'll shut up!! Dear Adrian - and hi ET(er)s I was deeply impressed by Adrian Belew's long response to "our" silly debate about his role in KC - and I'll apologize if we've hurt his feelings. But it's actually great that he is responding to his fans who are actually constantly listening to his fabulous musical contributions to KC - my personal favourite is DINOSAUR - musical structure & sounds (esp. electrical oboe-bass duet) are beautiful /and lyrics to learn from ... "it doesn't pay to be too nice"!! Cheers Markus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 06:23:37 -0800 From: Pat Malecek Organization: MAC Subject: Belew & this movie thing Hats off to AB (if it was actually him) for giving all naysayers the "what for." I think the band is markedly better (read: more enjoyable) than previous versions, and all points made in his defense were right on the money. Now, about this "King Crimson-The Movie" string. Let Tim Burton direct a cast of midgets, for christ's sake. Who cares? Enough already! Pat M. StL. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "M. S. AtKisson" Subject: three thoughts 1: To Adrian Belew: *whistles* *stomps* *cheers* *whistles* *'huzzah and hooray!'* *stomp* 2: Music stores around here have Guitar as Orchestra, but not Op Zop. (?!) 3: If you think Bowie and Eno have 'lost it,' listen to Outside. Peg. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:34:17 -0600 From: weisrot at cscoe dot ac dot com (Todd Weisrock - CIS) Subject: This Adrian Belew guy Thanks for the post, Adrian. We love you here in Milwaukee and eagerly await another intimate solo visit from you to Shank Hall or another little venue. Love the solo stuff as well. For a lot of us newer KC listeners, it wouldn't be King Crimson without you, though my wife and I have started to go back through time and aquire all of the older albums as well! ------------------------------ From: drl at eng dot cam dot ac dot uk Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 11:03:20 GMT Subject: Attn: moderator Having just read the posting from Adrian Belew in ET #320, I feel compelled to respond and I'd appreciate it if you'd pass this onto Adrian somehow rather than post this in ET itself. Still, I leave this to your discretion. I really don't want to get drawn into the anorak-wearing myopia of folks who think they have some magical musical yardstick to thrash artists with. While ET is generally a vibrant and vital forum for issues pertaining to KC and Robert Fripp, there are occasionally shitty little postings which neither inform, entertain, comment fairly, or criticise constructively. Such is life in a democracy and I would not want to change that. What I do want to change is the impression that an Artist like Adrian Belew might recieve from a posting like "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what". I suspect that any artist is destined to be isolated in some ways from thse who appreciate his or her work. This is simply because of the mostly one-way street of communication between audience and artist. Though I have not met Adrian Belew, I tip my hat to him for making such a big effort to communicate with the audience on-stage and off. I imagine that the kind of adulation one gets as a talented musician and member of KC is not always as pleasant as pop mythology might suggest. I want to address the last comments made in Adrian Belew's posting about "knowing that in the end you may never see credit for your work...". There are a lot of people lurking out there (and I'm one of them), who have immense respect and appreciation for music produced by artists like Adrian and the rest of King Crimson. However, it's pretty hard to know how to get that across to the musicians in question. Sure, one could get that golden backstage pass for a few stammered instants of inarticulation. Sure, one could whack off a drippy piece of fan mail, apropos of nothing. Maybe it takes an inflammatory email to stir us into some kind of effective action... So here it is: a bit of credit from a very happy listener. The more music I listen to, the more I think it consists of cleverly coded message that can be decoded on many different ways. The more Bach, Belew, Debussy, King Crimson, Stravinsky, Zappa and Zeppelin I listen to, the more messages I decode. If only I could send a coded message of thanks back to all the artists whose work I have enjoyed. The only messages can think to send, are ones like this, and my own musical code (for listening to great music is a great inspiration to write one's own). As one who plays guitar, sings (sort of), and writes music, I am consistently amazed by what artists like Adrian Belew manage to achieve. I guess that's why I feel so irritated by the whole issue which has prompted me to write this email. I sincerely hope that this, and all the other little bits of credit that Adrian Belew receives will be enough to sustain him in his work. Best wishes and many thanks, David Lovell -- David R. Lovell (drl at eng dot cam dot ac dot uk) Research Associate Depts of Engineering and Obstetrics & Gynaecology Q.A.M.C. University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street, Quality Assurance Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK in Maternity Care ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:09:38 -0500 From: "Hickson, Robert [PRI]" Subject: Belew - some editorial comments & sarcasm I wrote this back in August or so, and I can't remember if I ever posted it before. But in light of what appears to be a posting by Mr. Belew himself, I figured I would post my editorial comments: August 96: WARNING: INANE COMMENTARY AHEAD (proceed at own risk) In my (relatively) short time as an ET subscriber, I have come to sense that any of the following infractions could result in social disgrace: 1. Being a Deadhead 2. Liking the idea of KC at H.O.R.D.E. 3. Being too enthusiastic about Adrian 4. Dancing (even if you hide in a broom closet where no one can see) 5. Altering ones consciousness prior to a show 6. Wasting band width with inane commentary (oops!) But even the sinners amongst us can redeem themselves by: 1. Dismissing all KC material written/performed since 1974. 2. Dismissing the double trio 3. Dismissing Trey Gunn 4. Dismissing Robert Fripp for releasing too much material 5. Voting for Bob Dole (in the U.S., that is) (ok, I admit, it is uncalled for to accuse the nattering ninnies of negativism of being Republicans) Personnally? I hope next year I can dance at H.O.R.D.E. to a solo rendition of "Dark Star" as performed by Adrian Belew (of course the entire time I will be questioning whether this is really happening or if it's just me. "Uh, excuse me Mr. President, are you gonna pass that thing?") 11/5/96 (written after a subscriber cautioned about glowing reviews resembling a "hard sell" approach) - The New Standard Review: Adrian Belew has new cd. It has many notes. Some of them are pleasing to my ear. (insert rim shot here). 12/17/96: I happen to think Adrian Belew could possibly be the best thing that ever happened to KC. It thrills me to watch him do all of the things he mentions in ET320 AND giggle while he is doing it. (having fun at a Crimson show? on stage no less? BLASPHEME!) Hopes for '97: the Op Zop Too Wah tour. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:47:58 -0500 (EST) From: Kurt Kleinschmidt Subject: RE: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Yes, Adrian, you are good for King Crimson, and King Crimson is good for you. The album and ticket sales should speak for themselves; certainly not on par with KISS but they are stable and substantial. Always remember that Robert obviously has full faith in you, and that is something virtually every musician that reads this would give their first born to have. Stepping into a band like King Crimson, with all of its history and English stale uptightness, and being asked to participate in and outright lead dramatic changes in its direction is not an easy task for any person. Just ask Trevor Rabin. You can't make everyone happy, and you certainly can't make people change. Unlike Yes, it appears that the old incarnations of King Crimson are dead. Descructively critizing what we have and longing instead for what is gone is futile, and are the actions of someone that has a difficulty adjusting to the present. Fuck 'em. To me music is a living body. The current or live offerings are the real physical sensations that are there to be part of while they are happening. The future possibilities are there to provide hope. The past offerings are there to remember, learn from, and mold your current attitudes and feelings around. The past is good and fun to think back on but the present and the future are where life truly is. When I play through the King Crimson catalog I am always taken by the change in the music over time. When I go to the shows I always feel like you are playing for the present and future listeners, not living in the past and playing to the past. To me this is what keeps the music alive. My seven year old son Bryce loves your music. When you ask him what his favorite music is he says King Crimson. When you ask him what his favorite song is he alternates between Dinosaur, Big Electric Cat, Elephant Talk and Lone Rino. He thinks your music is fun and exciting. He thinks you are the greatest. He doesn't even know who Robert Fripp is (although I am sure that he will someday). He may not be the most sophisticated of fans, but he is a fan, he is picky, and he is the future. To the readers, we as fans need to be more considerate and appreciative of what we have. A classic example of this can be found with the demise of the psychodots, who, for those of you who don't know, played their final gig last month. They are (were) an excellent band with a fierce live show that withered on the vine from neglect by their fans. At one time I thought King Crimson had withered on the vine. Thankfully, in large part to Adrian's efforts and energies, it thrives again. BTW, the "flow" of your message and the format that it appeared in, at least in my email client, gave me the feeling that your message was/is/could be lyrics to a song that you may be working out (possibly with us?). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:57:12 -0800 From: Karen Subject: signing off After sadly reading Adrian's message to the fans of KC, i feel it is time for me to unsubscribe. So many of you have either forgotten your manners or never learned any. A forum like this is kind of like driving a car; you are completely annonimous, you can flip somebody off and you don't have to experience the effect you left on that person. ETer's ask for things, they get those things, and then they complain about those things. Well if you don't like something, then give it to somebody who does and walk away quietly letting the rest of us enjoy it. Constructive criticism is one thing, but foul talk doesn't belong anywhere. Perhaps the humble opinions so readily offered here should be a bit more humble. Enjoy the band as they are or they may not come out and play. spike Life's a blast, let's explode! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:01:57 -0500 From: Jason Bell <106417 dot 737 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Ref:Message From Adrian >If you can do all this as well or better than I do, Please, by all means, > Step up on the stage. I'll offer you my place in KING CRIMSON. I'd be > quite happy to sit at the back and just play guitar with my pal Robert. I'm not a guitarist Adrian, but if TLev or TGunn are feeling a little under the weather, could I have a stab at Stick ?? Regards Jason Bell (106417 dot 737 at compuserve dot com) ------------------------------ From: Alex Moseley Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 18:49:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Belew Bellows Well I'm glad Mr. Belew stuck his oar in. I had sent a defence of AB and 80s/90s King Crimson a few issues back, but it was curiously lost or ignored. This saved me another post. Not only have I been consistently impressed with AB's input into King Crimson on record, he also animated the recent THRaKaTTaCK concerts in movement and facial expression much to the entertainment of the crowd. And after having picked up the Young Person's Guide to Discipline sampler, track 3 stands out in beautiful and stark contrast to his work with KC, and has propelled me to amend my Christmas List to include his latest release. A thoroughly talented and truly worthy member of King Crimson. Let's hope we haven't all put him off continuing with the band. Alex. ************ Alex Moseley Computer Officer, Faculties of Arts and Law University of Leicester ------------------------------ From: ToddM at LaserMaster dot Com Organization: LaserMaster Corporation Date: 17 Dec 1996 12:52:54CST6CDT Subject: Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what? Ade: You forgot to add that you also had the audacity to put out that "Guitar As Orchestra" album, not exactly the most commercial release of the last decade or so. Let's see the detractors do some cover versions of pieces off that album, eh? Probably couldn't get beyond that initial tuning up I'd wager. Like being a frontman is a crime against the nation or something. Sheesh. Todd Madson PressMate Product Specialist LaserMaster Big Color Technical Support Corporate Web Site: http://www.lasermaster.com/ LaserMaster BBS: (612) TEK-LINE OTIS Faxback Service: (612) 943-3737 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:20:26 -0600 (CST) From: Christopher R Palmer Subject: Tribute, Adrian B, Frippertronics, Rock music TRIBUTE: Count me in!!! I'd love to do something like this. I don't know how it would work out, but I'd love to [try] to do the guitar on "Red" or "Red Nightmare." Cool! ADRIAN BELEW'S POST: Good for you Adrian. This recent spate of Adrian bashing is a flaming load of bullshit. You are one of the greatest guitarists of all time ("Guitar as Orchestra," anyone...!!!) and *certainly* an asset in KC. P.S. -- Adrian, do you know Japanese at all? MY coworker from Japan says "Matte Kudasai" means "please wait" which of course makes sense given the subject of the song. I was pleased to find that you are at least somewhat multi-lingual; as I am a linguistics major I put great stock in such things! :) FRIPPERTRONICS: Ken, RE your question on Fripp's electronic devices. Any delay or echo device with a long delay time (i.e. lots of memory) will do. The lexicon JamMan is a great start, or even the Boss DD-5 has lots of possibilities. A great delay-loop virtuoso is David Torn, who has some great records on CMP -- look into it!! ROCK MUSIC: RE Gordon Emory Anderson's post about rock music's quality. Let me say this: I think your and the "NYC studio brass player"'s attitude regarding rock is not a reflection of the music itself, but of the social status ascribed to rock. A lot of truly great (complex, emotionally provocative, etc) music has been played in a rock context, including that of Zappa, David Torn (see above), Vernon Reid, Jimi Hendrix and of course KC and its derivatives. Further, a lot of total crap has been promulgated in genres that enjoy higher status. A perfect example is that of jazz, which has experienced a quantum leap in ascribed social status, from its birth in whorehouses to its current state of concert-hall fossilization (a la Wynton Marsalis). Even when playing in stinky, shitty clubs, Diz and Monk were geniuses equal to (if not comparable to) Mozart, Bach, or whatever other genius of higher status you prefer. If reproduction of works hundreds of years old by mechanized automata (er, "musicians") is a necessary condition for "good" music, we're doomed. What is music -- a vehicle for class distinction or the means to move us emotionally? If you're more concerned with issues of status, that's all you're ever going to get out of music. Whether it's Vivaldi or Hendrix, what makes music great is its power to move us, not the social rank of its makers. Let's face it: Robert Fripp and his like are musicians of unparalelled creativity, technical mastery, improvisatory genius and compositional vision, and it is still ROCK. :) Chris http://umn.edu/~palm0108 ------------------------------ From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: An Open Letter to Adrian Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:58:55 -0500 Adrian, Don't sweat it, man. Most Crimson fans know that you're the greatest. Discipline, Beat (my personal favorite), and Perfect Pair were far and away the most listenable Crimson albums. Is there a better song than Dinosaur? I don't think so. The Crimson gig at Merriweather outside of DC in August was the second best concert I've seen in my life. The best was your solo acoustic two years or so ago. Well, now that I think about it, your tour the year before that when I saw you at Lisner at GW University (when Rob Fetters was with you and when Fripp opened the show with his trio of guitarists) was possibly the best. No, no, The Bears concert at the 9:30 Club years ago was the best. Uh, Uh, your Twang Bar King concert at the Wax Museum in D.C. (god, how long ago was that?) was great.....I still remember it. So, you see, you've done plenty good...... Oh, and I've listened to Op Zop about 50 times. And, Waiting Man about 500 hundred times. Greg Lake? Sure he was great with ELP. Wetton? Didn't even come close to you (and his solo albums suck). Thank you, Adrian. Can't wait for the next Crimson CD. I live for Crimson music. Dan in Gaithersburg, Md. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:34:22 -0500 From: Don Cooper Subject: We Love Adrian Dear E.T.'ers, IMHO, Adrian Belew is part of what makes King Crimson the vibrant musical entity that it is, and I hope it continues to be. In fact, all six members contribute to what's good about King Crimson. Anyone who wants to compare AB to Greg Lake is living in the Late 60's - Early 70's. King Crimson is not the Moody Blues: a traveling Oldies show that puts out a new album occasionally. The band is as new, as fresh and as vibrant as any new band on "Empty TV". Adrian has a perfect right to defend himself as he did in ET #320. I was amazed it really was him; I had first thought it was a fan's letter. We should be honored that he pays that much attention to us. I think the emotions expressed in the post made me understand the line, "It doesn't pay to be too nice - that's the one thing I have learned". What this man brings to the party is quite obvious, and I'm sure I speak for many when I say "We love ya, Adrian". And remember, it's only talk - cheap talk. Don Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:26:39 -0500 (EST) From: SHELF <05jwsmith at bsuvc dot bsu dot edu> Subject: Adrian, oh Adrian! I was surprised to find a post in ET written by Mr. Adrian Belew himself! I was equally surprised to find him having to defend his own work on a forum supposedly devoted to the music of HIM as featured in KC. This is not right! I don't know who these "critics" of Adrian's are, but LAY OFF!! Like it or not, Adrian has been a fixture in KC for over a decade now, and it's very apparent that there will never be another Crimson without him. No one can play his guitar lines and sing his songs as beautifully as him! I would be interested in knowing what the problem seems to be with him though. The man is an internationally respected guitarist, having won numerous polls for the better part of 20 years now. He was (and is) on the cutting edge of the development and application of guitar synth technology. His voice is one of the mast melodic and lovely, and at the same time frantic and powerful in all of rock music. He's the best damned vocalist KC has ever had! (an opinion I know, but...) I will admit, when I first got into King Crimson it was through the 70's stuff, Larks, Starless, Red, and when I got my first 80's KC disc I thought "who is this joker who seems to think he's as good a guitarist as Fripp??". I have since grown to see that Fripp and Belew are opposite sides of the same coin (guitaristically) and that since 1981, it is impossible to imagine Crimson without the interlocking guitar parts and deft staccato hits and arpeggios that make their music what it is: Brilliant! I can also say with no reservation that Adrian Belew is one of the nicest entertainers in the world. I was priveledged to meet him on a few occasions after several Crimson shows in 95 (one in his hometown Cincinnati as his loved ones waited for him) and he has always been an incredibly nice guy! Always eager to chat, sign autographs, even pose for photos. So, Adrian, if you happen to be reading this; "take heart!!! We love you!!!! Keep doing what you're doing so perfectly, and forget about the "critics"!!! No one should have to defend himself against his own fans. Jason W. Smith Ball State University Muncie, IN ------------------------------ From: Dave Bevan Subject: Belew & KC Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 18:12:40 GMT Organization: Clarendon House I'm glad you gave space for Adrian to defend himself. I've been listening to KC for over 25 years, and I think that the current setup is as strong, innovative amd impressive as ever. I remember back in the late seventies, after Fripp had resurfaced from Sherborne, and had been playing with Bowie. (Heroes ??, I'm not a big Bowie fan). A friend of mine mentioned that Bowie had a new guitarist playing with him, and he sounded just like Fripp. That guitarist was Belew. The way each has developed over the past 20 years complements each other, rather than detracts from either. If you liked what KC where, great, there's plenty who do, and plenty to listen to. The Great Deceiver Box for a start (can you get bored of that ??). However, Thrakk is just as awesome as ITCOTCK, LTiA, SaBB or Discipline. I look forward to more to come, rather than, say, the Rolling Stones who keep out variations on a theme that 1001 other groups can do just as compentently.=20 KC was a band of the 60s/70s, reinvented itself as a band of the 80s, reincarnated itself as a band of the 90s, and I'm sure will continue to develop. Who else comes to mind in that category?=20 Whew! That feels better! =20 =20 =20 -- Dave Bevan (dave at verdant dot demon dot co dot uk) Leamington Spa Warwickshire (The opinions expressed here are also my dogs) =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 16:57:46 EST From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: The 100th message re: Adrian's response I have to wonder about an artist that cannot take criticism, especially the criticism of people who have little or no idea of the talent required to write and perform so professionally "and make it all look easy, night after night" Let us imagine for a moment that Pink Floyd was suddenly fronted by George Clinton (of P-Funk fame, not the Pres' bro') I would love such a combo most "die hard" Floyd fans would hate it but would George give a shit? Hell No! So, Adrian, the moral of the story is, we all know that you know how to turn the mother out and we all know that you know how to make the booties shout and we all know that you are the king of that twang bar thing so slide over hip cat and chill because you are the man with the gold and the hold on the eyes of the fans in the crowd. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 17:41:04 -0500 (EST) From: David McMillan Subject: Adrian's rebuttal Way to go Adrian! zop on! Dave McMillan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 16:25:11 -0600 From: bobb at cheney dot net Subject: 2 cents worth I receive this newsletter to glean a bit about the lyrics, instruments, tours, etc. I really do not understand this crap about "Does Belew belong?" or "Why does Robert sit in the back?" etc... Christ, folks, appreciate the music, be thankful for any and all lineups, and be glad that there is something out there other than mainstream middle-of-the-road radio-video commercial paste. **** Bob "Humbug" Boschen P.S. Greetings from Florida to Mr. Perry... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 23:09:59 -0500 From: Ron Niles Subject: Re: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" I'm still thinking, "Could this really be Adrian?" I mean, Ade is a thick skinned New Yorker who always seems totally confident and on top of things on stage and off. Could a few comments in this digest really get to him? I've been reading ET for over a year, and never posted anything. I almost feel like I'm not qualified. I'm not a musician, don't have a collection of early memorabilia, or a bunch of witty stories about how I chatted with Robert or Bill or Adrian. And since I'm only 31 years young, I only know the pre-Belew Crimson in retrospect. So I don't understand how anyone could disagree that Adrian is good for KC. I guess some hard core Fripp enthusiasts really have trouble accepting that their Soundscape virtuoso has teamed up with the man who releases pop hit songs like "Daddy Daddy" and "I See You". We've heard quite a bit in this digest about how Adrian is indeed a great musician and vocalist, the front man and the voice of the band. He is everything he said in his post and more. But I want to say a few words about how he keeps KC from taking itself too seriously. And how he makes it FUN to listen to. Yes FUN. I think most of us like KC because it is complex music. But Adrian also makes it interesting and enjoyable to listen to. He contributes songs like Thela Hun Gingeet and Neurotica and Cage where the words and music work together to paint a slice of life in New York City where I live. The Adrian factor also brings a sense of humor. I'll admit that sometimes I even laugh out loud. Like after hearing Cage a few times, when I suddenly realized that "Holy Smoke, somebody blew up the Pope" has a funny (but sad) double meaning. Or when I finally deciphered that line in "Elephant Talk" that goes, "These are words with a 'D' this time." Or like when I read Adrian's post and thought that he could have summed it up by saying, "OK come to a DEAD STOP." I saw King Crimson last year in Red Bank, NJ. Before the show, there was a young man outside who was wandering about, blowing through his tightened lips in such a way as to generate sounds of Elephantosity. As I watched this curious character in amusement, I laughed to myself, "This is the lighter side of Crimson." So THANK YOU ADRIAN and keep up the great work inside KC and out. ------------------------------ Subject: A response for Mr. Belew Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:17:59 -0500 (EST) From: aswansorb at aol dot com (Anton Swansorb) > From: Adrian Belew > > If you can write songs which are good enough for the > approval of KING CRIMSON; > and when I say write I don't just mean write some chord changes, > but ALL the melodies and ALL the words, > and if you can then perform those songs > well-lit and in full view of audiences from all over the world > and make it all look easy, night after night > If you can do all this as well or better than I do, > Please, by all means, Step up on the stage. > I'll offer you my place in KING CRIMSON. > PUT UP or SHUT UP. Dear Mr. Belew: At first, I was under the assumption that a fourteen-year-old brat had commandeered daddy's computer and left this message using a forged e-mail header. I was shocked when I learned that it actually came directly from your own keyboard. Clearly, you feel insulted by the debate on this list. However, you could have chosen to express yourself in a far more rational and mature manner. You've basically given those who have a problem with your contributions to the band _exactly_ the response they were looking for. Your message makes you look egotistical and pompous -- to the point of mammoth delusions of grandeur. I've always considered King Crimson to be a band comprised of some of the most intelligent musicians around. Various posts by Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn and Tony Levin have always confirmed this in my mind. However, since your absurd message, I think I'll have to reconsider my opinion. Clearly, you think very highly of yourself. And that's fine. But I got the distinct impression that you believe you're some sort of dominant presence in King Crimson that the band simply can't function without. I hate to tell you this Mr. Belew, but YOU -- yes _YOU_ -- are replaceable. Crimson has had many members past and present and there's no doubt in my mind that the show would go on without you. I'm not saying this because I dislike you. I think you're a stellar talent, with a great deal of potential for the future. However, if you intend to cultivate respect and goodwill amongst your fans, you better learn to start rewarding them with intelligent behaviour. Otherwise, you may find them deserting you as the years progress. In closing, perhaps you should consult your "pal Robert" and find out how he would have handled the situation. I think you'll find he would have taken an entirely different approach. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Anton Swansorb aswansorb at aol dot com "Artists, musicians and poets deal in the unreasonable on a daily basis. This is the living breath of our work and the invisible glue which holds together performers, audience and our song. Redemption and repair, for those committed to serving the creative impulse, is an aspect of applied art and utterly practical." -- Robert Fripp /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1996 15:37:40 -0000 From: "Thomas B" Subject: RE: in defense of adrian belew ETers sent a copy of Adrian's letter to a few fans and here are some responses--hope they're not offended. And in the words of the immortal A.Belew "your a monster, baby". --Thomas B. >From skulrose at ix dot netcom dot com Subject: RE: in defense of adrian belew Every word of Belew's letter is fucking true....< >From Subject: In defense of the Lone Rhino Tom, I think the whole arguement is a hoot! That an accomplished musician like Adrian would stoop so low as to reply to such a silly bait is really funny. I guess he has too much time on his hands. He should go on tour again. Or do the talk shows. Op Zop is too good an album to leave to caroline records to promote.< *--------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *--------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:28:09 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: The Crimson Rhino King The rhino king, with crimson wings, the cry's of seagulls, neurotic strings, a beat of hearts, the talking drum, the flash of light, the sheltering strum. The truth is shrouded in expectation, the moment is the only redemption, the meaning is anyone's perception, right or wrong a subjective decision. Myself I can remember a birthmark, a happy day a moment's spark, And night that differed from all that had been, a special place to others unseen. In humble appreciation of your commitment. - Martin Bradburn ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #322 ********************************