Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #320 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 320 Monday, 16 December 1996 Today's Topics: ET Crimson Covers "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Crimso- The MOVIE!! KC in Record Collector 2 ET King Crimson's Triple Trio Re: Some bass questions Assorted questions and stuff FS: Chapman stick Seattle Guitar Craft weekend Elephant Talk #1 entry Funk Fingers available for purchase 3oapp Poster Live Video is OK??? 2 Sides of Fripp's 'Tude Re: King Crimson Notes And Queries Red Nightmare Re: Elephant Talk Digest #319 ET's very own KC tribute Frippertronics and Synthesis Crimson reviewed - Epitaph - Tribute album Fripp, KC, food, double-shows, and drivel Rolling Stone aTTaCKeD By THRaK help....bootlegs KC Video etc. Fripp's attitude, ET 319, Mike Dickson's messages new Belew/Zappa KC "Live in Japan" video Alternative Court Lyrics KC the movie/tribute tape Deleted albums ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Matt Walsh Subject: ET Crimson Covers Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 11:09:00 PST Hello, This may have been brought up before, but it just crossed my mind and I thought I'd bring it up. I have seen talk on here sporadically about Crimson "tribute" albums, and it got me to thinking. Considering most Crimson fans seem to be musicians themselves, and hopefully spanning a diverse set of music, I was thinking if it would be possible for ET members in bands themselves to make our own tribute demo/album/... I don't know how much of a legal hassle this would be, or if anyone would be willing to donate the time neccessary to do this, but I think it would be great if some of the ET members were to "pay their respect" on recording as much as we have on this mailing list. I personally am probably a little further out musically from the norm on this list, as I am the lead vocalist of a "metal" band. We have been discussing possibly adding another cover to our setlist (we only do 1 at the moment), and I am a person always wanting to do something different, and I think we could do something interesting with a KC song. I think it's funny, because my guitarist doesn't listen to KC at all, and he seems like he is influenced by Fripp by some of the things that he writes and the way he plays. So, just thought I'd bring this up in case there was any interest. Please let me know if anyone is interested in persuing this idea. Oh, and to the person that mentioned scratching "Elephant Talk" and "Frame By Frame" from the "current" setlist. I couldn't disagree with you more. I think "Frame By Frame" is the most improved song with the double trio and was upset when they didn't play it at Philly last time. My jaw dropped to the floor after hearing that song live the first time. ET is one of my favorites as well. While "Red" is one of favorite KC songs, I have to admit that it probably should go, it seems to be missing something when they play it, though I have no idea what "it" is. We all have our own opinions, just thought I'd blabber mine. Matthew Walsh Software Engineer - Strategic Management Group mattw at smginc dot com ------------------------------ From: Adrian Belew Subject: "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what" Regarding the ongoing debate "Is Adrian Belew any good for Crimson or what": If you can write songs which are good enough for the approval of KING CRIMSON; songs like ELEPHANT TALK or MATTE KUDASAI, NEUROTICA or HEARTBEAT, THELA HUN GINJEET or THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR, ONE TIME, or DINOSAUR, and when I say write I don't just mean write some chord changes, but ALL the melodies and ALL the words, words which include even the title of this digest, and if you can then perform those songs consistently and fluidly at the front of the band well-lit and in full view of audiences from all over the world who are willng to pay to see you, keeping in mind that often times the guitar parts are in a different time signature from the singing and the singing is often in a difficult range and if at the very same time you can provide a plethora of guitar styles and sounds from animals and pianos to oboe and E-bow, not merely the required shrieking spooge solos but the interlocking precision-picked parts as well and tap your foot and make it all look easy, night after night and if you can withstand the pressure, the criticism, the comparsions, the indifference, and unkind remarks you'll receive knowing that in the end you may never see credit for your work and the huge investment it will take from you... If you can do all this as well or better than I do, Please, by all means, Step up on the stage. I'll offer you my place in KING CRIMSON. I'd be quite happy to sit at the back and just play guitar with my pal Robert. It's so easy to criticize. But as the saying goes PUT UP or SHUT UP. op zop to you later, Adrian Belew op zop to you later, adrian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:02:09 -0500 (EST) From: BREWERS HAT <05jwsmith at bsuvc dot bsu dot edu> Subject: Crimso- The MOVIE!! In response to Ron Chrisely's post; Kurtwood Smith was BORN to play Robert Fripp!! The men are geniuses!! As chapter president and founder of "The Kurtwood Smith Fan Club", I can only refer any interested parties to Mr. Smith's amazing and poignant performance as "Taylor Dup's Lawyer" in the brilliant and hilarious film "Two Idiot's in Hollywood". This film is very hard to find, but well worth the effort of tracking down. But the cast for such a Crimson film might follow as: Adrian Belew- Gary Busey Tony Levin- Arnold Schwarzenegger (with shaved head and moustache of course) Bill Bruford- Kevin Spacey Trey Gunn- Adam Sandler Pat Mastelotto- renowned french actor Gerarde Depardieu with special appearances by Bruce Willis as John Wetton, Woody Allen as David Cross, and Sir Anthony Hopkins as Jamie Muir... * Shelf * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:19:17 -0500 From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: KC in Record Collector 2 December's edition of Record Collector (No.206) concluded its excellent history of the Island record label. The series took a specialist's view of the company, concentrating on the somewhat esoteric world (at least to me)of label variations, printing details etc. However, it did provide small features on some of the labels most popular artists of the day including KC. (see my previous synopsis posted on the last et). Under the title of KING CRIMSON TO BUMPERS a well researched article by Stuart Penney and Chris Savage covered people as diverse as IF, ELP, Fairport Convention, Nick Drake and one or two others besides. At the top of the shop however was ITWOP. Printed with a small black and white reproduction and the following article. 'The second opus from KC heralded a procession of personnel changes which were to plague (or bless, depending on your point of view) the band throughout its initial ten year existence. Inevitably, perhaps Poseidon was another hugely polarising effort: those already converted were quick to dish out more superlatives, while the detractors claimed (among other things) that the album was far too derivative of its predecessor. On reflection it can be argued that another instalment of KC's confident blend of frenzied stop-timer bombast, gentle melodic passages and Mellotron soaked epics was an entirely appropriate follow up to their spectacular debut. After all, one of the most common criticisms levelled at the progressive movement has been that, in the race towards increasingly ludicrous concepts, triple albums, equipment stuffed pantechnicons, etc., it very rapidly progressed itself out of existence. So perhaps we should be glad that KC appeared to drag their feet just long enough to give us what basically amounted to 'ITCOTCK - Part 2'. Early examples of Poseidon were housed in heavily textured EJ Day-printed gatefold sleeves featuring Tammo De Jong's painting 12 Archetypes'. As stocks of each successive batch of covers were used up, this almost oil painting like texture gradually evolved through a bewildering array of slightly varying finishes until, by the time of Crimson's defection to Polydor (via EG Records) in 1977, Poseidon eventually basked in the comparative ignominy of a non textured and considerably less impressive cover. Clearly, either KC's hostile attitude toward edited singles was rapidly softening or Island had again ignored the wishes of Fripp and his men because in March 1970 a severely truncated Cat food / Groon was released. Although Keith Tippett's improvised piano finale got the chop, an attractive picture sleeve and the decidedly instrumental B side 0 then unavailable anywhere else - partially compensated for this indignity. Known label Variations: 3rd Pink Label; palm tree label, orange palm tree; then issued on Polydor and EG. Current CD: EG EGCD 2' The samplers album Nice Enough To Eat and Bumpers see Crimson mentioned again. The first one has a version of Schizoid Man without its so called 'night sounds' at the start. Bumpers features Cadence and Cascade. However, as the article mentions ' At 3.30, Bumpers understates the timing of C&C by no less than 13 seconds. Mind you, even at its true length, there is still a whopping 53 seconds shortfall between this and the full ITWOP version ! An early fade out can be blamed for the truncated Bumpers track, a theme which Fripp took even further on the 1976 compilation, TYPGTKC, when he lopped a further seven seconds off poor old Cadence. Also worth noting are the horribly remixed cymbals and hi-hat on the Bumpers version' ------------------------------ From: "Christopher A. Jepson" Subject: ET Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:08:49 -0500 (EST) Dear Elephant Talk, I just spent a couple of hours assiduously sifting through Pete Frame's excellent reference work, "The Complete Rock Family Trees," and compiled a list of the activities, from the '60's to approximately 1980, of the members of the 1969-1974 King Crimson besides Robert Fripp. I would like to share it with everybody, but since it's pretty lengthy and since I am a newcomer to ET, I thought I should first inquire about the proper protocol, i.e.: (a) are you interested and (b) if so, should I send it as a post like this or in some other form? Sincerely, Chris Jepson (cjepson at pobox dot upenn dot edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 18:45:13 -0500 From: Too Long Organization: Rutgers University Subject: King Crimson's Triple Trio Season's Greetings to fellow enthusiasts. This may be somewhat outdated information, but I have yet to see posts pertaining to it in any Elephant Talk issues. Late in the summer of 1996, just prior to the Philadelphia show I believe, Trey Gunn was interviewed on a local South Jersey radio station. He commented that King Crimson's next album will most likely be out in 1998. Furthermore, and somewhat more interestingly, he stated that the band will be joined by three new members. Have there been any rumors or implications circulating of who the new members might be, or what roles they might fulfill? Another guitarist does not seem to be an immediate necessity, although it's not unprecedented. Likewise, Bruford and Mastelotto seem exceedingly capable of conquering the percussive domain without a third party. Perhaps, a Soundscapist is in order, or a keyboardist. Another posibility is that there will not be nine total members, but that the three members will simply be replacing one or more of the members who wish to no longer participate in the band. I hope there is some room for discussion on this topic and that someone may have some insight on the future of King Crimson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: Re: Some bass questions *------------------------------ Some bass questions from FISHBOY. >Hello, >I have a few bass questions. >1) On "Epitaph," how many strings are on Lake's bass? He's playing >really >high, beyond the range of a normal 4 string. Maybe he's just tuned >oddly. Greg's bass, at the time, was (as far as I can tell from the "Young Person's Guide to KC" book) a Fender Jazz 4-string. He just plays way up the neck a lot. He still does. >2) On the coda of "Larks' Tongues Part 1," is Wetton playing octaves on a >fretless bass tuned down to D? The glissandos sound so smooth I think it >must be a fretless. The LTiA Pt. 1 coda is in G. Wetton seems to be using some sort of octave divider/multiplier, so I'm not sure which note of the notes is the "true" note, but there are (to my ear) both a note above and a note below being generated. The lowest note is well below the range of any bass made at the time. This could be the result of a gadget creating a note above -and- below the one being played, -or- recording two tracks of bass, with an octave below being generated for each track. I suspect the first choice. Such a pedal was available at the time, by Maestro, I think. As for the smoothness of the slides, heck, I can get a fretted bass to sound like that. I imagine Wetton can as well. >3) Is Wetton playing a bowed double bass on the bass solo of "Red" and at >the beginning of "Fallen Angel"? My guess here is that the line is being doubled by Fripp on Mellotron. He's credited with Mellotron on the album, and there are some bowed bass sounds from the 'Tron that sound -extremely- authentic. I love playing this part (Red) on my MIDIBass while triggering Mellotron bowed bass samples at the same time. Hope this helps. J.P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca Co-FAQ guy "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 01:56:50 -0800 From: Damon Mahon Organization: none Subject: Assorted questions and stuff Hello, fellow ET readers, First of all.... > G Gordon Liddy as Tony Levin > Tom Hanks as Bill Bruford > Christopher Lloyd as Tony Kaye > Meat Loaf as Pat Mastelloto > > Any takers...? > Right on with G Gordon Liddy and Tom Hanks, but you needn't go out of Hollywood for Mastelloto - just get John Travolta (Pulp Fiction style hair, corresponding with Mastelloto during his first tour with Crimson) Secondly, is there anybody who has any definite news on new KC releases? I've heard USA II and Live In 1969 slated for '97, but no definites or dates. And how about (eager anticipation) that new studio album, the first rumor of which I heard as being in January '98. And how about that 80's live set everybody wants, and how about Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part Four (already composed) mentioned in TGD liner notes, and might we ever get some of the older band members back (ie PLEASE John Wetton) to work on some projects (as Fripp once again so teasingly mentioned in TGD)? Thirdly, does anyone know how I can get copies of some of those "amusing covers" of KC songs touched on in a few different issues of KC? Just email me (damon dot mahon at yale dot edu) Last of all, an amusing story... back on that aforementioned first leg of the THRAK tour, Crimson was stopping in New York City and I was in high school and had a ticket but the concert was on a Sunday night (y'know, a *school night*) and I was trying to convince my mother to let me go to see this band she'd never heard of. So she asked "What kind of music do they play?" Now what was I going to do; play her THRAK and expect her to let me go? No. I played her The King Crimson Barber Shop. Suffice it to say I saw the show. Happy Holidays, Damon Mahon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:35:28 -0700 From: Daniel T Howarth Subject: FS: Chapman stick Organization: The University of Arizona hi folks, i'm selling my stick. it's an ironwood, #1563. re-worked by Emmett Chapman in late summer 1995. truss rod installed. new set of strings, flight case, gig bag, stereo cords. email me if interested. thanks. dan howarth at u dot arizona dot edu -- **************************************************************** ** Dan Howarth, History/Music, University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth (under construction) ** **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:52:04 -0500 From: mkopelbe at students dot wisc dot edu (Murray Kopelberg) Subject: Seattle Guitar Craft weekend ET'ers: Following is information on the upcoming Seattle Guitar Circling Weekend. Please contact Steve at the address below about this event; and to be added to the mailing list for future Guitar Craft related events, please email me at the address above. Murray Kopelberg Guitar Craft Registrar _________________________ The Seattle Guitar Circle will be hosting a "Guitar Circling Weekend" on March 7, 8, and 9th of 1997. The weekend is open to anyone who has been on a Guitar Craft course. The course is also available for beginners who are interested in an introduction to the Guitar Craft Standard Tuning. The weekend activities will be directed by Steve Ball, Fernando Kabusacki, Martin Schwutke (of Los Gauchos Alemanes), Paul Richards, Bert Lams, and Hideyo Moriya (of the California Guitar Trio), Tobin Buttram, and Tony Geballe (of the League of Crafty Guitarists). There will also be an Alexander instructor present. The three-day weekend will include meals, lodging, group and personal guitar work, performance opportunities, as well as optional Alexander and yoga sessions. The cost for the weekend is $350. Anyone interested in participating in this weekend is encouraged to write or email Steve Ball at: a-sball at microsoft dot com or Steve Ball c/o Microsoft RedWest A1049 5600 148th St. NE Redmond, WA 98052 Please do not telephone for information about the course. The weekend will begin with dinner on Friday evening at 7pm, and the weekend will be completed by Sunday evening at 11pm. For those traveling from out of town, please plan on arriving at the facility no later than 5pm on Friday evening, and please plan on leaving the facility on Monday morning. Even though the duration of the project is a "weekend", participants are strongly encouraged to arrange their travel so that they may be present for the entire duration, Friday at 7pm - Sunday at 11pm. Please reserve your space for the weekend by sending a $100 non-refundable deposit to the address listed above before January 15th. Please make your checks payable to "RockSlide, Inc." We expect the 25 available spaces for the weekend to fill up quickly, so please reserve your space early. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 05:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Basile Subject: Elephant Talk #1 entry Hi, Saw the Pittsburgh HORDES SHOW, short but intense...ce!Belew looked at his watch often. RF does seem to enjoy this double trio. I hope he means "you can't tell musicians this good what to do." RF did stay on stage for the whole Lenny Kravit's show including oncore ,GO MY WAY. Also enjoyed the live IN JAPAN video! I liked it's rawness,timing and its power! I did miss THE SHELTERING SKY;but LARKS TONGUE might be the most powerful to date! H.ope you enjoyed my vigin entry to ET. I've been a long time reader. Warmly, J.S. Basile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:44:05 EST From: haiders at kenyon dot edu Subject: Funk Fingers available for purchase Hello all-- Some of you may be interested in knowing that Tony Levin's Funk Fingers (those little sticks he sometimes attaches to the ends of his fingers) are available for purchase through the man himself. You can order them through Papa Bear Records for $14 plus $2.50 S&H. http://papabear.com I saw the ad in the latest (January 97) issue of Bass Player. Later, Sean Haider haiders at kenyon dot edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 1996 23:51:20 U From: "Matthew" Subject: 3oapp Poster Well, as long as somebody else can ask for stuff like this, so will I: Does anybody have (or know where I can get ahold of) a poster of the _Three Of a Perfect Pair_ or _Larks' Tongues in Aspic_ front covers or the _Red_ back cover (the gauge)? This info would really be appreciated. Contact me at this address (matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us). Thanx, Matt ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 96 00:07:37 -0500 From: Greg Bastug Subject: Live Video is OK??? Alexander Kaufman wrote: <<...OK, so the sharpness of the picture is not the strong point of the video; Adrian at times appears to be a ghostly image, while Trey Gunn is often out of focus...>> --..among a lot of other problems... << But let me say this: IT'S A VIDEO. It is meant to represent a performance of Crimson in Japan. In no way will you get a perfect duplication of this or any performance. If I saw a crystal clear image of the band, I would get the sence that something is awry...>> -- ...no, I would get a sense that I could actually see something recognizable. This isn't Eno's "Thursday Afternoon..." << So I will watch the Japan video, and try my best to put aside the visual distractions and instead concentrate on the music - for THAT is where King Crimson shines...>> -- I agree. But buying a video and having to put aside the visual distractions is not, IMHO, a good thing. I might as well keep playing "B'Boom" with my TV off... Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:15:23 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: 2 Sides of Fripp's 'Tude The recent discussions of Fripp's tude, and that backstage pass story ("don't approach Mr Fripp under any circumstances") really caused me to think. On the one hand, unlike many of his contemporaries, Fripp has managed to remain vital in his music. Where Bowie fell by the wayside with "Let's Dance", and Eno somehow lost that spark years ago, Fripp has been one of the most consistently engaging musicians in the rock arena (lit and fig). So to a certain extent, if all this wierd stuff he does has enabled to maintain a space for himself in which to grow, great. I kind of have to expect that. Hey--he's not my buddy or my dad or something, so what business is it of mine what he does around the edges? At the same time, however, I sometimes think that events like these actually serve in a backhanded way to develop a cult of personality around Fripp: he's special, an artist, don't touch! My thought is that a lot of what Fripp does (like playing unlit) is supposed to be avoidance of the guitar god archetype (and I have respected his wish to avoid contact that might try to draw him into this role). In a backanded way, however, this is precisely what he is doing. One thing puts this all into perspective for me. As someone who grew up in and around the Metropolitan Opera house, I have over the years met or hung out with musicians of absolute world class caliber, playing music that (sometimes) dwarfs in complexity any of KCs work (eg, Lulu, by Alban Berg), requiring a level of conectration and dedication I think Fripp might have some vague understanding of. I never saw any of these musicians act so silly. Let's face it: Fripp plays great, thrilling rock guitar, but its still only ROCK. (As a well known NYC studio brass player said: "Rock Critique? What the hell's a rock critique? That's like looking into a toilet bowl and picking out your favorite turd!") -Emory. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:22:46 -0500 From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: King Crimson Notes And Queries crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) posed some questions which I will endeavor to address, but not in the original order. Hold you breath, everybody: >5. Who is playing what instrument on 'Trio'? The guitar sounds like it > is *probably* Wetton and the Mellotron Fripp, but I may be wrong > here. Oh, come on...you must never have read the credits in Young Person's Guide, which means that you've been missing out on one of Fripp's neatest drolleries. The line-up for the four-man "Trio" is: David Cross: violin Robert Fripp: mellotron John Wetton: bass guitar [not guitar] Bill Bruford: admirable restraint >4. Has anyone worked out the lyrics to 'The Mincer'? Here's what I hear; probably not 100% correct, but reasonably close: Fingers reaching Fingers shrieking Jump at a scream Goodnight, honey You're all alone Baby breathing They come better looking But they don't come madder >2. By the same token, are there any overdubs on 'Starless and Bible > Black'? Obviously yes...see the above lyrics. The original live improvisation which was used as the basic track for "The Mincer" did not include any singing. >1. Why would someone with the appreciation that Fripp has for the > warts-and-all 'live situation' agree to the release of 'USA' complete > with a myriad overdubs? Let me answer that question by posing another: Why would someone who hold the attitude that Fripp does, that both the essence of a live performance and the relationship between audience and performer are degraded when a bootlegger or photographer attempts to capture some aspect of the performance, even consent to release any live albums or videos at all? "He who binds to himself a joy Does the winged life destroy. But he who kisses the joy as it flies Lives in eternity's sun rise."--Blake Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Info on THE BRANDNEWBUG CONCERTOS (voted the 606th best album of all time by the Gentle Giant internet mailing list!) at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html I've got my hand on your mouse! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:09:28 -0600 From: "Bennett C. Adlaf" Subject: Red Nightmare The other day I was in class and we were discussing the "Red Scare" in the US in the 50's. We watched a tape that featured certain US propaganda films showing the dangers of Communism. One of these films was entitled "One More Red Nightmare." Have you heard of this? Was KC thinking of this while writing the song? Any connections? Bennett C. Adlaf Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA adlafb at nwu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:23:43 -0500 From: MikelBiko at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #319 What with all the talk about Crimson movies/films/videos recently, I am wondering if anyone has seen and remembers specifics about the "Black Oak Arkansas/King Crimson" concert film from 1973? I have a few minutes from it that I believe was aired on the old U.S.A. Cable Network "Nightflight" program in the mid-80's, but have never seen a full length version available, or spoke to anyone that had any information about it. The portion they aired that I have on tape shows them performing Easy Money and Lark's Tongue (w/Jamie Muir), and then is followed by an original TV ad for the "Larks Tongue" LP. The quality on my copy is not that great. Anyone got a better/ more complete version, that's interested in doing some tape trading? mikelbiko at aol dot com Mikel Orsborn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:23:18 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Forrest Zink Subject: ET's very own KC tribute > From: Matt Walsh > Subject: ET Crimson Covers > > I have seen talk on here sporadically about Crimson "tribute" albums, and > it got me to thinking. Considering most Crimson fans seem to be musicians > themselves, and hopefully spanning a diverse set of music, I was thinking > if it would be possible for ET members in bands themselves to make our own > tribute demo/album/... I don't know how much of a legal hassle this would > be, or if anyone would be willing to donate the time neccessary to do this, > but I think it would be great if some of the ET members were to "pay their > respect" on recording as much as we have on this mailing list. > So, just thought I'd bring this up in case there was any interest. > Please let me know if anyone is interested in persuing this idea. I happen to be more than interested! That is a fabulous idea. I get dibs on "Fracture"! I challenge all Crimson nuts to contribute something! -MZ- ------------------------------ From: Ken Melms Subject: Frippertronics and Synthesis Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:34:51 -0500 Hello all, This being my first post to ET, though I've read for many months, I'll be brief. I'm curious about the devices called "Frippertronics". The device RF uses to record in real-time, and loop that recording in real time to allow him to play yet another line on top of, and even record that line into the loop if he wishes. I recall hearing that the device supported up to 8 tracks of real-time recording and looping of his sound, but I could be heavily in error.. The quote I recall from RF is something like, "It (the device) allows me to make the most noise from a single guitar." (Heavily paraphrased as I can't seem to find the article I heard that in.) In articles and lectures by him he says that he uses a pair of REVOX recorders, but I would still like a clearer picture of what he is doing, and how to perhaps even duplicate his efforts. Please e-mail me or post here your answers! And thanks to all you ET'ers out there who've brought light into the darkness that we all love to delve. Peace, Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:01:58 +0100 (MET) From: poisson at club-internet dot fr (Thomas Poisson) Subject: Crimson reviewed - Epitaph - Tribute album There is a superlative review of Thrakattack at the Rolling Stone web site (www.rollingstone.com). Check out the "random notes" section and do a search on "King Crimson". They also had good reviews of Thrak and B'Boom some time ago. For those interested (like me) in the forthcoming "Epitaph" release, Possible Production says it'll probably come out in march '97. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:04:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Cervero Subject: Fripp, KC, food, double-shows, and drivel This seems to be a bit of a dry period for KC news, so now's as good time as ever to relate a totally innocuous Fripp-Crimson story. Mine deals largely with food. While paging through back archives of ET, there were several posts a few years back of Fripp's Madame Wong concert in LA Chinatown in '79. I caught this glorious Frippertronics show, but it required posting some $36 (I went to both evenings' shows...yeh, greedy) for fairly mediocre Chinese buffet-style food caked with MSG. If I recall, the watered down drinks weren't much better. It really didn't matter because I got to sit front row (on the floor), absorbing Fripp's one-man soundscapes and delighting to the spectacle of Fripp gently rocking backwards on his stool while synchronizing floor pedals, adjusting tape loops, and continually fiddling with the sound board, all with laser-beam concentration and a curiously scientific expression on his face. Fripp was incredibly engaged with the audience and animated throughout the show (as he was during the 72 KC tour I caught), responding to audience inquiries and displaying a nice wry, British sense of humor. Fripp's flair for crafting creative repetitiveness with the guitar had me in a dream-like state. By show's end, I was overcome by a feeling having kneeled, physically and meta-physically (?), at the alter of ambient guitar virtuosity. I actually cornered Fripp in between shows, shook hands, and chatted for around 5 minutes. I was doing fine while engaging him about the techniques of Frippertronics, but then my queries degenerated into Crimson trivia and his demeanor demonstrably changed. The conversation was doomed when, faux pas and all, I asked him what the Giles brothers were doing (which I actually knew from the liner notes of "Young Person's Guide" but couldn't think of anything else to say) -- he quickly responded that Mike was backing up Ant Phillips and Peter was an assistant to a barrister, then abruptly ended the chat. It's then that there was a big commotion outside among those (the "cheap seats") who had been waiting hours for the second show but were being passed up by "first-class" customers who paid extra for the gastronomical-surprise buffet, mystery meat and all, awaiting them. Fripp stepped outside, found out that his concert was "class segregated", and became visibly upset, confronting and locking horns with Madame Wong (who I assume was the club manager running the show) to the cheers of the throng. Turns out the buffet was almost depleted anyway by the second show, so I think the cheap seats got the last laugh. I also caught the Frippertronic's show at Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. shortly thereafter to promote Exposure, fortunately a foodless venue, and Fripp was again affable and downright extroverted. Fripp autographed the 8-track tape of Exposure I bought at the show, which digging through my basement I find I still have (in fact, I've got all early KC on 8-track, a dubious distinction, I'm sure). Two years later, KC reconstituted itself, and once again, for me, KC concert and epicurean excesses. I caught both shows, both nights, of the Roxy concerts in November '81 -- fortunately no meals but, I think, a two-drink minimum. (The first Roxy show of the first night was the most powerful Crimson display I've ever witnessed, including the west coast tours of '69 and '73, and Hampton Roads show I caught in '72 -- yes, wallpaper peeled off the walls.) Then I returned home to the Bay Area and Monday night caught both shows at the Old Waldorf. This was again a food-mandatory performance. We all set around big oval tables, and were treated to hefty helpings of spaghetti, salad, and slightly stale bread. It had a distinctive dormitory quality. I remember my ex- and myself were (I believe) the only ones staying between shows, and Bruford hung around to "retune" his bright-yellow, new, Simmons electronic kit. And we got to hang around and pester the stage folks. We talked to Bill for a few minutes; he was incredibly friendly, and seemed somewhat bewildered though appreciative that there were actually folks who would endure two marginal meals to catch two Discipline shows in one night. (I passed on the next night's show at the Old Wardoff, my calorie count having peaked/piqued for the week.) Fortunately, the 80s Crimson gained a loyal following, and subsequent California performances I caught were at stadium-filled and food-optional venues. (I continue to be one of the few Bay Area fans to catch double shows -- both the Berkeley Greek and Marin Civic Center double-trio fall '95 shows.) I find myself enjoying the recent Crimson tours less. Whether this is because Fripp has become increasingly withdrawn (agoraphobic??) or, to me, the double-trio and thrakking remains a bit of a musical mystery, I'm not sure, though I find comfort in now being able to control my food intake when catching a Crimson show. And I hope there are many, many more. From a only slightly overweight, mid-40s Crimson fan who keeps a day job as a professor and spends many evenings trying to master the razor-edge guitar licks in Schizoid Man. "Don't think that I'm that rude if I tell you that it's cat food, 'not even fit for a horse!'" ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptdprolog dot net Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 01:54:44 -0400 Subject: Rolling Stone aTTaCKeD By THRaK A co-worker gave me her copy of the latest Rolling Stone, the one with Pam Anderson posing with Beavis & Butthead. It was the holiday issue that has features like "The Year In Movies", "Year In Music". I was sarcastically reviewing their picks, grumbling that THRaKaTTaCK was overlooked. Well much to my suprise, on page 198, THRaCKaTTaCK gets a favorable review. The following excerpt was taken without permission from RS 750/751: "THRaKaTTaCK...is a visceral treat, a document of amazing technical might and telepathic precision. Crimson don't just fuck around: they fuck you up with sustained invention like the harrowing double-guitar passages in "The Slaughter Of The Innocents." In a word brilliant." Can anyone remember when the last time KC got such a favorable review in RS? ------------------------------ From: "SZYMON KARPINSKI" Organization: Warsaw School of Economics Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 20:21:30 EST Subject: help....bootlegs Hello ET readers. I am looking for some King Crimson bootlegs. If have you got any, please let me know about them via mail. (DO you want to SELL them ?). I am also waiting for any information about them if possible. Thank you very much!!!!! Please contact me. Szymon Karpinski (e-mail: skarpi at sgh dot waw dot pl) ------------------------------ From: "Mike Lockyer" Subject: KC Video etc. Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:39:39 -0000 To join in the debate re the KC Video - mine arrived yesterday and after all the dismal comments about I was expecting a sub-standard video but ....it was really very good indeed, particularly as I have not had chance to see the double trio. There are blurred bits but the music is great there are plenty of close-ups at the appropriate times the atmosphere is good Don't be put off by the negative comments, particularly if you have not seen this version of the band. As a long time KC addict who thought that I would never hear new material from the band it is really great to have so much excellent material being released over the last few years (2 x 4-cd boxed sets, a live-video, a live-double etc. etc.) and more to come ! Now if they would only play in the NE of England ..... BTW anyone see the RFSQ video - any good ? ================================= Mike Lockyer University of Teesside Middlesbrough e-mail m dot a dot lockyer at tees dot ac dot uk ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 14:40:33 +0100 From: hecker Subject: Fripp's attitude, ET 319, Mike Dickson's messages In ET 319, Mike Dickson came up with the following question, among others: >5. Who is playing what instrument on 'Trio'? The guitar sounds like it > is *probably* Wetton and the Mellotron Fripp, but I may be wrong > here. I can relate an observation from a KC concert in Kassel, 1973 or 1974 when they were touring with "Starless and Bible Black". Trio was played as a part of this concert, with Cross on violin, Fripp on mellotron, and Wetton on bass. That was it, and I think this is pretty much what the recording sounds like, too. With reference to the backstage proviso, you also wrote: > As much as I may have many years of profound appreciation of his work, this > sort of prima-donna attitude seems to fly in the face of his stated wishes > to avoid the trappings of the type of fame he despises. I don't agree here. Always on the assumption that the order concerning the backstage proviso was in fact issued by RF (which we don't know), my view is that we have to distinguish any kind of prima-donna attitude from the fear of being invaded by the mass public's fan attitude and related behaviors. We know that the attitude toward rock-stars in general is in no way less shaped by the showbiz than are the behaviors exhibited by these stars themselves and by record companies in rock music. Think about the way fans behave towards Michael Jackson or the Kelly Family, just to bring to mind the worst scenarios. Someone in ET reported about an event in August or September, during the HORDE tour, when he and a couple of friends were walking around the ground of the venue and happened to see RF standing in an illuminated room with one window half-opened. One of the people started shouting something like "Robert, you changed my life", and things like that, when RF obviously reached over, without looking, and shut the window. In my opinion, reports like this one strengthen the view that RF is in the same way concerned about avoiding any communication that could seem to be shaped by mega-star ideologies from the fan side (which he would have to face) as he is concerned about his or his company's (DGM) behavior in the business. Ulrich von Hecker *-------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ulrich von Hecker Universitaet Potsdam Institut fuer Psychologie Abteilung Sozialpsychologie Tel.: 0331/977-2954; Fax: 0331/977-2795 email: hecker at rz dot uni-potsdam dot de hecker at fub46 dot zedat dot fu-berlin dot de *-------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:24:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Jay Tracy" Subject: new Belew/Zappa For all the Belew fans, a new album can be added to his discography, Dweezil Zappa went through FZ's archives and unearthered a few live takes of old favorites (Zoot Allures, Black Napkins, and Watermelon In Easter Hay, plus rare treat: Merely A Blues In A). The track w/ Adrian is (and here's what Dweezil has to say from the notes): " Watermelon In Easter Hay 6:42 minutes Live recording: city and specific date unknown - January or February 1976 Musicians: FZ: lead guitar/ Terry Bozzio: drums/ Patrick O'Hearn: bass/ Tommy Mars: keyboards/ Peter Wolf: keyboards/ Ed Mann: percussion/ Adrian Belew: rhythm guitar "Watermelon In Easter Hay" is a unique instrumental. The melancholy pedaling phrase in the background is beautiful on it's own but coupled with the lead melody it becomes a devastating piece of music. In this early rendition it is clear that Frank is still working on the placement of the melody. He has not yet arrived at the Joe's Garage "Watermelon" phrasing. He's also using a distorted and slightly Dynaflanged tone. It's amazing how the slightest change in phrasing affects your emotional response. When Frank played the "Joe's Garage" version suddenly there was no other way for that melody to be played. It's still interesting to hear the difference between the two. Also, this early version was recorded at the end of the '78 tour. This was Terry Bozzio's last tour with Frank. I wonder how much the melody phrasing change had to do with the change in drummers. Vinnie Colaiuta performs on the "Joe's" version. Hmmm, something to ponder." (C) Zappa Family Trust The name of the album is Frank Zappa Plays the Music of Frank Zappa, it is mail order only. info: 818-PUMPKIN order: 888-9-ABSURD It's well worth it ! ..jay ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:59:41 +0100 From: Peter dot Flach at kub dot nl (Peter A. Flach) Subject: KC "Live in Japan" video This weekend I got hold of the "Live in Japan" video, and I must say I'm very impressed! The "blurred" image doesn't disturb me at all, and the video editing is very good: many things happening musically are captured visually. This really adds to my understanding of the music, since many of these things escaped me when I was out there in the audience (in Den Haag, that is, not in Tokyo). The interesting thing is that most of the music on the video is also on a bootleg CD I bought some months ago called "The Double Trio", which says it's "recorded live at the "Nakano Sun Plaza" in Tokyo, Japan, on October 5th, 1995" (the video is recorded on October 5/6). The setlist of the bootleg is very similar to the video (titles taken verbatim): 1. Instrumental Intro 2. Vroom Vroom 3. Frame By Frame 4. Dinosaur 5. One Time 6. Red 7. Drum Solo 8. Vroom 9. Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream 10. Elephant Talk 11. Indiscipline 12. The Talking Drums 13. Lark's Tongues in Aspic Part Two 14. Walking On Air I checked these very carefully against the video, and they are clearly taken from the same show, and I'm pretty sure even the same mix. The bootleg says it's an "original soundboard recording" -- which it's clearly not, as soundboard recordings are much more compressed (like on B'Boom, the official bootleg). The bootleg is also not taken straight from the video, since Vroom and Vroom Vroom have swapped places (the video seems to give the expected order). The "Instrumental Intro" is the same as on the video (there seguing into Vroom). "Drum Solo" is the last part of B'Boom. Also, the songs 3-6 and 9-13 above are exactly as on the video, with the same applause and pauses. Finally, the soundscape outro after Walking On Air is exactly the same as on the video. My suspicion is therefore that the bootleg is somehow produced from soundmasters during production of the video (the bootleg has excellent sound quality). Also, the CD booklet (which is very carefully designed) has many pictures that could well be taken directly from video material. This leaves unexplained why Vroom and Vroom Vroom are swapped. Of course, the other possibility is that the CD is an unedited recording of the October 5 show, while the video is edited. The songs not on the bootleg but on the video (Thrak, Matte Kudasai, Three of a Perfect Pair, and People) may have been recorded on October 6. Any comments on this? The CD is on the "Oxygen" label, nr. OXY 053; made in Czech Republic. --Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:32:12 -0500 From: ErikSensei at aol dot com Subject: Alternative Court Lyrics Hello team, Just was listening to a CD I picked up while living in Japan, titled "Songs for Europe." This CD...yes, admittedly a bootleg...contains Easy Money, Lament, Book of Saturday, Exiles, The Mincer, The Talking Drum and Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part Two, all from the November 23rd, 1973 show at the Concertgebow in Amsterdam, as well as Epitaph and In The Court Of The Crimson King, from the May 6th, 1969 BBC Top Gear Session. Anyway, as I'm listening to Court, I'm suddenly struck by the fact that the lyrics are different from the "original" version. The alternative lyrics are highlighted below: ** The Earth is captive to the moon ** ** Some seek the rising sun ** ** I walk the road on winds of change ** ** The game has just begun ** The purple piper plays his tune The choir softly sing Three lullabies in an ancient tongue For the court of the crimson king ** The burnt-out ash suburban men ** Put shutters on the dreams I wait outside the pilgrim's door With insufficient schemes The black queen chants the funeral march The cracked brass bells will ring To summon back the fire witch To the court of the crimson king The gardener plants an evergreen Whilst trampling on a flower I chase the wind of a prison ship To taste the sweet and sour The pattern juggler lifts his hand The orchestra begin ** As sparks fly from the grinding wheel ** In the court of the crimson king Perhaps this is old news, and everyone will yawn at this posting. But I found it quite interesting. q I'm wondering if anyone's aware of other instances when alternative lyrics have been used throughout Crimson's history? I know several of the gig reviews from the last few years pointed out lyrical variations on such songs as Indiscipline, and I imagine the live setting has likely produced the most lyrical switcheroos. But are there any other cases of this happening? I'll be interested to read your input on this. Happy holidays and good tunes in '97, Erik D. Dahlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 15:37:44 +1300 (NZDT) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: KC the movie/tribute tape >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:01:13 +0000 >From: Ron Chrisley Organization: COGS, University >of Sussex Subject: Clarence Boddicker >KING CRIMSON - THE MOTION PICTURE >starring >Malcolm McDowell as Robert Fripp >The last time this was done, someone suggested Buck Henry. But I prefer >Kurtwood Smith. >Ron I still say Brent Spiner as Adrian Belew! >This may have been brought up before, but it just crossed my mind and I >thought I'd bring it up. I have seen talk on here sporadically about >Crimson "tribute" albums, and it got me to thinking. similar things have been tried on other lists, often successfully (the Robyn Hitchcock list's two excellent "Glass Flesh" tapes, the best of which are soon to be pressed on CD, for instance). BUT there are two potential problems with this on this particular list. Firstly the more successful trib tapes seem to come from smaller lists (this list is huge). Secondly, Robert and the guys have very strict interpretations of the copyrighting laws, as laid down on their CDs. It is a necessity to liaise in some way with someone connected with the band to ensure we don't tread on their toes legally speaking. If these two hurdles can be got over, though, it sounds like a good idea! James ------------------------------ From: Dave_Depper at bendnet dot com (Dave Depper) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:21:54 -0800 Subject: Deleted albums Organization: http://www.bendnet.com Hey all, in the past month or so I've come across some deleted Fripp-related material. A lot of you probably own these but for those who have never heard them, I thought I'd fill you in on what they're like... The League of Gentlemen --Robert Fripp The Original LoG album. This has all of the songs on God Save the King plus "Minor Man", "Ochre", Frippertronics, and some spoken word segments. Many of the songs are the same, except the majority have random spoken-word segments pasted throughout. "Dislocated" is a different (and in my opinion better) version. "Minor Man" is much like the version on Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx but the guitar is distorted and a woman talks throughout the entire song. There are also some odd Frippertronic bits that sound like Fripp is playing with a guitar synth instead of a normal Fuzzed guitar. Very interesting stuff. Lastly, there are lengthy spoken bits with women shouting stuff like "Ding, dong, and Fripp!", "Rock and roll is about fucking!" and various orgasm noises. All in all, a very fine album. Exposure--Robert Fripp The original album. For a list of differences, see the Exposure pages as listed on ET. However, I noticed some more differences than those pages mentioned. Nearly all of the tracks seem to feature different rhythm tracks, vocals, and guitar passages. It's basically a full album of alternate versions of Exposure songs. Some are better (NY3, I May Not Have Had Enough of Me), some are not (Disengage, Chicago). The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson Good collection of pre '75 KC material. Notable for the inclusion of the demo version of "I Talk to the Wind" and the b-side "Groon." USA-King Crimson Most have heard this. Live album of a 1974 concert. Great version of "Lark's 2" (with overdubbed mellotron) and the roaring improv "Asbury Park." USA version 2 is being released early next year. Discipline-King Crimson The original contains a version of "Matte Kudesai" with RF playing a solo through most of the song. Interesting but otherwise the same. Islands-King Crimson The alternate cover, mullticolored clouds on a white background. Hope you guys found this interesting. These are worth seeking out (I got each for less than four dollars). --Dave (the 16 year old Crimhead) ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #320 ********************************