Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #305 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 305 Monday, 9 September 1996 Today's Topics: Re: The Failure of the Double Trio Concept Re: Sinfield's "Under The Sky" Re: Belew gripes several Sylvian/Fripp c.d. Adrian's poetry and standing at concerts Belew Re: KQ & KC Post submission Sitting Down, Fitting In In defence of Belew re: ET #304 The Third Star Third Star more NIN/Belew/etc..... The TLev movie Double Trio More KC links to the "mainstream" My First Post Trey Gunn Belewbashing, et al.... Success(?) of the double trio Six Cooks Doesn't Spoil The Aspic Nerve Net Trey inaudible? QUERY: ETers in Stockholm? Double Trio fails? ET in TO ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Subject: subject lines are now mandatory Hi everyone. Welcome to ET #305. We've been receiving quite a few posts with a subject line of "Re: Elephant Talk #304" or no subject line at all, or somesuch. It's unhelpful to readers to run posts with such subject lines, and it's impractical for me to bounce the post back to the poster, or to invent a subject line myself. So, in best Draconian fashion, in future if you wish a post to be included in ET, it must have a sensible subject line. Else, the post disappears into oblivion. So there. :-) Best wishes to all Toby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:30:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: poisson at club-internet dot fr (Poisson Thomas) Subject: Re: The Failure of the Double Trio Concept MARK.KEEN wrote >I have decided to propose put the following idea to be discussed (among >yourselves) and debated (and I'm sure this will direct flaming in my >direction): The KC double trio concept failed in terms of positively >effecting the actual recordings and performances of KC. All six musicians >were dedicated, hardworking, talented performers who failed, by double trio >design, to bring together a cohesive, distinct sound to this "phase" of KC. >Clearly, all six could not be "heard" simultaneously in concert or in >recording. .. I propose that with the 90's "Thrak" KC the sum of the parts was >greater than any "whole" obtained by the group. I have to agree with that. The only things truly original that came out of this KC incarnation are Thrak and the related improvs, and a couple of tunes such as Cage. I fear that large, democratic groups such as this version of KC, allow themselves smaller spaces for innovation and risk taking. The lack of direction in the current version of KC might be the cause of Fripp's sometimes apparent disinterest with the group during concerts (as reported in many reviews). Any three or four of the six musicians in this double trio would probably raise more enthusiasm, musically speaking, than the six of them. So let's hear what Gunn, Mastelotto and Fripp can do... (just a suggestion) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:30:46 -0400 From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: Sinfield's "Under The Sky" dalane at bbn dot com (Dave Lane) wrote: >Nothing to do with what he might be up to these days, but I'd like >to mention that the recently released box "Supernatural Fairy >Tales" features a cut from that album. It's "Under the Sky", which >is familiar to anyone who has a copy of "Cheerful Insanity". [snip] >Interestingly, the Sinfield track is credited to Sinfield and >MacDonald, but the Cheerful version is credited to Fripp. I wonder >who's right? I believe that the McDonald/Sinfield credit is correct. I can't imagine Fripp, who seldom wrote lyrics of any sort, composing an image as delicate as: "High in the hawthorn tree Bee and butterfly Seek fortune in the leaves Under the sky" This is surely from the same pen that wrote the lyrics of "Islands" and "Formentera Lady." Compare this with Fripp's own lyrics on the GG&F album, which are distinctly awkward and fragmented. ("But when they look and they see/To where their loving will be/Live love and then they'll learn to play"). I could see the melody coming from either Fripp or McDonald, but since no one's claiming a Fripp/Sinfield credit for the tune, McDonald wins by default. If nothing else, the two McDonald/Sinfield credits (Still and the Rhino box set) versus one for Fripp (the GG&F CD), win by plurality! Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html "...these insufferable Fripps, men who ought never to be trusted..."--P.G. Wodehouse, "The Fiery Wooing Of Mordred" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:41:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Ashley Edward Collins Subject: Re: Belew gripes daveM writes: >Rick Bunker says: >>Adrian's guitar work is different than Robert Fripp's, but it compliments >>it perfectly, and is in many ways at least as good if not better than >>Robert's. Adrian's lead work is innovative and dynamic, set against >>Robert's controlled tension-building patterning. Even Robert knows that >>his brilliant style of play needs a melodious layer on top -- thus the >>synth added to USA. > >You don't think the guitar parts in "The Night Watch," "Exiles," >"Starless," and "Firepower" are melodic????? > >Belew's approach to soloing seems to be just making sounds and grabbing the >whammy, and then perhaps picking above the nut. Maybe gimmick is too >strong of a word, but that's what springs to my mind. > >It also seems like he wants Crimson to be the second coming of the >Beatles. No thanks. I think what he's saying is that Fripp has a propensity for playing in a "non-melodious" manner, even though he has shown us that he does know how to put down a gorgeous melody or progression, and that Belew can serve as a fitting counterpoint to that. For every "Exiles," Fripp has also recorded at least a dozen "Fractures," "Schizoid Mans," or "Groons." Not putting down his style at all (would I even be subscribed to this list if I didn't care for Fripp's playing?), and I don't think Rick was, either ("brilliant" doesn't sound like a put-down to me :) ), but I do think that Belew does help diversify the band. And I do agree he can be prone to gimmickry at times, and the Beatles-ey songs do seem kind of pointless to me, but still, I think his contributions outweigh whatever detrimental elements he may have brought to the band. Ashley Collins aec200z at barbados dot cc dot odu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:46:16 -0400 From: CmnSnse at aol dot com Subject: several First off, I was delighted to see ET pick up on the Fripp/Zappa parallels. I have been putting together hodge-podge cassettes consisting almost entirely of KC and FZ for years. (Imagine Fracture, LTiA2, Cirkus, and Starless interspersed with Sinister Footwear, Waka/Jawaka, Marcheson's Chicken, Echidna's Arf, and even Twenty Small Cigars...) In the world of rock, RF and FZ are probably the two most successful artists ever, in terms of being completely uncompromising, imperious, creative geniuses and yet achieving something close to mainstream success. I think that their common disdain for the use of drugs stemmed from being control freaks, not from any anti-libertarian sympathies... I agree that Greg Lake still ranks as the most compelling vocalist for KC; however, many of the rest of the vocals in the 70's make me cringe. (Not all of them: Wetton was uneven, though quite good in "Starless".) Adrian, God forbid, actually hits the notes that he's supposed to hit. Further, he can pull off gentle ballads, which I think would be completely beyond, say, Boz. As much as I'd like to see these guys live again, I'd rather they returned to the studio and cranked out some new material first before they burn out completely and we have to wait until 2003 or so for the next lineup... For instance, I think that the theme behind "When I Say Stop, Continue" is ripe for expansion. On the other hand, I'd pay big bux just to see RF play Fracture in a live setting. The power that this lineup could put under this song would be phenomenal. While I am sympathetic to RF's need to play in the dark, it's a shame that there's not some clever way to just spotlight his hands. Tom Payne Pueblo, Colorado ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:07:11 PST Subject: Sylvian/Fripp c.d. From: alstew at juno dot com (Al Stewart) Does any fellow et'er know how I can get a c.d. copy of 'Damage'? I'm in Usa & even would appreciate a web site also where I can get it. Thanks, Al ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 21:55:37 -0700 From: Josh Emery Organization: Emery Distributors Subject: Adrian's poetry and standing at concerts > Adrian's lyrics and song writing have brought the group to new heights. I > like the 70's stuff, too, but "canonize the ground he walks upon" just does > not hold a candle to Adrian's poetry. Please, this is not to flame anyone - I just really dislike these kind of back and forth things to go on in "public". I mean my opinion is different from yours from his from hers and these debates are much more fuitful in private. And, there is no right and wrong. I can only say the 70s lyrics have meant more to me than any other Crimson. But, I can't resist this, with regard to Adrian's "poetry" "Could be irregular and singing in her underware"? Come on. > WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE DANCE OR AT LEAST STAND FOR SOME SONGS!!!!??????) Ya know, I was thinking exactly the oposite. I think Beethoven's 5th is a pretty rockin' piece of music, but I have never seen anyone at a performance of it dance or stand during the performance. After, yes. Why is it that when Fripp had a dance band, he couldn't get prople to dance - though he did make every effort to book dance halls. My understanding is, if you buy a ticket for a seat - you are supposed to sit during the performance. I took my 11 year old son to a KC show. It's a challenge for him to see, but possible when the people in front of him are sitting. When they stood, all he could see was three backs. I think it's rude and inconsiderate to stand or dance in your seat during a song. After, while the band is making no sound, is fine. Well, enough of this fruitless tirade. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:59:15 -0600 (CST) From: Alicia Sepulveda Subject: Belew Excuse me, but David Mechem's asseveration that Adrian's guitar work consists of making funny noises seems to be the opinion of someone frankly unfamiliar with recent KC work. Sure, he does a lot of funny noises- that's a part of his playing (and not my favorite part, but that's another story) but have you seen him perform Dinosaur? Waiting Man?, or even better, for a clear overview of the 2 sides of Belew, Dig Me? Adrian is simply one of the greatest guitarists alive today (and I saw him live recently and he has actually improved), and his playing is extremely complex and beautiful. He is at least as good a guitarist as Fripp (that's sacrilege, I know. But it's the truth) but extremely different in his style. And just because you can't properly appreciate his playing doesn't mean you can dismiss it as being a gimmick. I've seen a lot of good groups get scorned by the people who can't understand them. Pablo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:44:53 -0700 From: gondola at deltanet dot com (E.B.) Subject: Re: KQ & KC Loved Mark Keen's suggestion of a Kronos Quartet Plays King Crimson CD. Bring it on!! After the wonders Kronos did with Television's "Marquee Moon," anything is possible! :) EB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:55:06 -0700 From: theslammer at worldnet dot att dot net Subject: Post submission >>>Bruce said: : -I am really bored with Red. They ought to open it up like Thrak or : retire it. This is, of course, sacrilige, but I'm starting to agree with it. The first time I saw KC (in 84) I was so blown away -- by the fact that they played "Red" and by the performance itself -- that I never would have thought I'd get sick of it (especially if I knew it would be 11 years until my next Crimson concert). But, y'know, I saw the band three times last year, and while "Red" was always heavy, and always well played, it just doesn't go anywhere. If they could find a way to inject a little bit of surprise into this tune -- either by tinkering with the arrangement or adding a full-scale "blow" a la "Thrak" -- it could once again be the total heart-pounding experience that it should be.<<<<< I think you need to listen more closely. The group was certainly pushing the outside of the envelope at Asbury Park this August. Tony really streched out on both Red and Vroom. The improv which has become Thrak has evolved into a wandering, directionless, free jam without structure or form. It is a bit of a case of the Emporer has no Clothes. The improv which has been done within Red is within the form, subtle, interesting, and therefore more artistic. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:49:41 GMT Subject: Sitting Down, Fitting In From: lordabay at nyc dot pipeline dot com (michaeldamianjeter) A few Random thoughts: I am a beginning Chapman Stick(R) player, and my preferred playing position is sitting on an ergonomic chair(ergonomic may not be the right term for this; it is the chair which has a knee pad on it, forcing one to maintain a decent posture--incidentally, I picked up this chair after a Fripp/CGT performance, but that's another story) I enjoy the intimacy and control that this position allows me. Standing up playing allows a certain ammount of excitement for the audience definitely, for the musician, maybe, but I do believe that in standing, the musician, at least THIS musician, loses a great deal of control. I am sure this goes a long way to explain Mr. Fripp's posture in performance. Where do Adrian and Trey fit into this incarnation of KC? First, a few disclaimers. I am a strong believer that KC is Robert's band, and so, whomever he says belongs in the band, belongs in the band. As a guitar player, Adrian's random, angular style, strikes me as the perfect foil to Robert's smoother, more fluid style. Of course, as many of us know, Adrian can be "smooth and fluid" in his own right, and that Robert can be as angular and dissonant as anyone, so these distinctions are merely conveniences of discussion. I like Ade's lyrics. I think that where Sinfield/Palmer-James' lyrics seem to stem from a more Classical/Romantic tradition, Adrian takes us into the worlds of post-modernism and deconstructionism. To talk about better or worse is, IMO, not as meaningful as to talk about personal preferences. That having been said, I have many fantasies, including Wetton joining this band as a vocalist to perform a version of "TOAPP"(Ade, John, and Tony in three-part harmony), as well as this band doing, oh, say, "Doctor Diamond," and/or "One More Red Nightmare." But then, hey, I'd like them to ask David Cross to come back:-) Trey Fitting in/The success of the Double Trio: IMO, the only place where the Double Trio is wholly successful is in the batterie, if i may be so pretentious, i.e., the drums and percussion. My ears are not good enough where I would even think about saying who plays what, but I can clearly hear that there are two separate parts. Where the double trio is marginally successful is in the guitars: We have a general sense of Robert and Ade's style, as stated above. The Double Trio, however, completely fails, imo, in the bass, Chapman Stick(R), Warr Guitar, department. There are, I think, many reasons for this. First and foremost, I assume KC are making the music they want to make, and therefore, they do not want the clarity b/t Tony and Trey's parts that exist b/t, say, Pat and Bill, and if this is the case, I guess they are succesful. However, I would like to hear clarity in the Tony/Trey section. To do this, obviously, they will have to write a radically different music from what they are currenly doing. It is, imo, a question of arrangement, chord voicings, and, ultimately, style--which, of course, ultimately, seems to be a decision for Robert and the "good faery," of whom he writes so often -- michael damian jeter Dept. of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purple Heart Chapman Stick#1193 Whatever you do, A teacher works harder than you do.-- George Clinton, Central Park, NYC, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:13:15 -0400 From: gadget at ultratech dot net Subject: In defence of Belew re: ET #304 David Mechem writes in response to Rich Bukers prasie of Belew "Belew's approach to soloing seems to be just making sounds and grabbing the whammy, and then perhaps picking above the nut. Maybe gimmick is too strong of a word, but that's what springs to my mind". daveM I amongst many of us (guitarist especially) are certainly offended by comments (with all respect to personal opinion) marginilizing AB's style of guitar playing as"noise making or gimmickry". Certainly his approach while idiomatic is most definatly innovative, his "gimmickry" is an expressive palette of textures and tones that transcend conventional rubber stamp guitar playing. Adrian's genuis also comes from his ability to place this "gimmickry" within the context a subtle ballad or a " 1 4 5" rock number or effectively intergrate within a dynamic ensemble such as King Crimson. Criticizing from ignorance is only a convenient method for review, an informed critique would cary intergrity and validity. I recommend to D Mechem to listen to some of Adrian's solo or session work. Being a hard-core fan I do admit to loving everything but I would objectively recommend "Desire of the Rhino King" for a great overview, or "Inner Revolution" cause it really rocks. And then make informed commentary. Nuff Said RD Collins " Where all in competition we play a fruitless game, why invite comparison when no two are the same" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:17:09 +0100 From: GW Subject: The Third Star I'd like to recommend Trey Gunn's "The Third Star" to all ET-readers. As several people mentioned before, this is a very unique, interesting record of the Warr-Guitar/Stick - wizard. And there are interesting guests, too: Toyah ("Symbiotic", very powerful). Serpentine (strange, but interesting singer). Pat Mastellotto And what amazes me most: _Alice_ This italien singer was very popular in Germany 13 years ago. She made a duet with a german singer (Stefan Waggershausen) that was quite successfull in the charts. In these years Alice was on every radiochannel in germany. For me it was really a nice surprise to find Alice on a KC-related record. Small world ... Ciao GW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Kamil" Subject: Third Star I also have just picked up Trey Gunn's "Third Star" CD. I've listen to it twice. I think its's fantastic. Once again, I highly recommend that all ET'ers pick this one up! Jeff ("H the H") ->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->-> Jeffrey S. Kamil and Harry the Hat Productions harryhat at wco dot com 75121 dot 2760 at compuserve dot com http://www.wco.com/~harryhat/ <-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:50:41 -0400 From: Weirdy2 at aol dot com Subject: more NIN/Belew/etc..... Yes, Belew did contribute to the Downward Spiral, and he also contributed to one of my favorite albums, Paul Simon's Graceland. My purpose of writing has little to do with King Crimson or Adrian Belew, more to do with NIN and Bowie: I was impressed a few years ago whenq i bought the Downward Spiral, and was very suprised to see Adrian Belew credited (Guitar for the Practicing Musicain even interviewed him around this time and asked him about it) in the liner notes. The reason i was suprised that Trent Reznor (NIN) credited him, is because there is a song in the album that Trent simply didnt right, and furthermore didnt credit to the writer. "A Warm Place" was always one of my favorite tracks on the Downward Spiral, until I bought Bowies' Scarry Monsters. There is a b-side on the cd called, "Crystal Japan" (1979): "A Warm Place" is, in fact, "Crystal Japan" (it doesnt sound like it, it doesnt sound a lot like it, it is the same song). To my knowledge there is no credit to Bowie in the liner notes. Just wanted to inform everyone. -chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:18:29 -0400 From: "Jean M. Adams" Subject: The TLev movie Hello All, VH-1 is planning to air _One Trick Pony_ for their picture show feature Sept. 13th. If you want to see Mr. Levin looking serious and playing a little bass, you might want to check this out. Jean "What the hell was that !? - Frasier Crane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrance L Kalka II Subject: Double Trio Mark's language regarding his opinion of the double trio version of Crimson disturbed me. He consistently spoke as if the band has ended, never to be heard from again. The phrase "The double trio failed. . ." suggests that it will never return to try again. While it is true that King Crimson has not really sounded like a double trio (except for the stereo panning on the lp verison of VROOOM), I believe Belew has acknowledged this, and said that he hopes in the future that it will change. It is my opinion that the biggest strength in the double trio so far is the drumming. The Bruford-Mastelotto combination has really propelled songs like Dinosaur, SSEDD, Frame By Frame, B'Boom (duh), and various improvs. After countless hours of listening to this band, I have come to the conclusion that while it's fun to try and figure out who plays what, it's best not to worry about it. There is so much work being done with electronics in KC that there are times when it's simply impossible to tell who is playing what. Trey Gunn is in a tough spot because his instrument can cover a lot of territory. I think that just because you can't pick him out of the mix doesn't mean ypou aren't hearing him. To conclude I wish to return to my original objection. King Crimson (or most of it) has publicly described its plan to write and record in 1997, and tour in 1998. It may be that in '98 the double trio concept will come to the forefront. It may not. But I think it is too early to tell whether or not the band "failed." peace Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:34:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Harmon Subject: More KC links to the "mainstream" I was afraid to bring this up before, but now I have solid proof: Thrak producer David Botrill is producing the band Tool's upcoming album. I have always secretly seen a connection between the two bands in the areas of rhythmic intricacy, dynamics, distinct rock composition, literary content (I'm serious about this!!), meticulacy in production, and sheer volume. Sure the almost total lack of melody is unexcusable, but this is the closest thing in "MTV land" to you-know-who. But even so, the vocals in both bands are treated as and instrument rather than the absolute centerpiece of the songs. Tool can also be considered a "dinosaur" in it's own right. Few people want to hear technical music in this, "the second coming of the Beatles," to paraphrase an ETer. So I suppose, ladies and gentlemen, you may fire when ready... -ammahamma ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:30:26 -0400 From: John Roi Subject: My First Post Hello fellow crimsters, this is my first post to ET so bear with me if I sound a little green. When I was a senior in high school, back in 69, a classmate told me that he purchased the COTCK album for the "hit" song but thought the rest of the album was too weird. Similarly, I had purchased the Chicago Transit Authority's first album & quickly tired of it. We traded albums & I was hooked! My friend was much happier with Chicago & I was ecstatic over "COTCK". One of my best trades ever! I, myself, am not a musician so I lack the keen musical insights of some of you crimheads out there but IMHO: KC is just the greatest band on the planet with the most incredibly talented musicians ever to perform together! I refer to the current, 6 member incarnation. Nobody can touch these guys! "B'Boom" is the most exciting, well-recorded, live CD ever produced! On a good system, it comes close to capturing the power & impact of a "live" performance! I only wish they had included "Dinosaur". BTW, my wife's impression of KC>>>> "like listening to a screaming cat scratching its claws on a chalk-board". Well, what the hell does she know? I can't wait to see where Fripp & the guys will take us next!John John Roi astropod at snip dot net "Live Long & Prosper" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:52:40 -0400 From: Emuguy5830 at aol dot com Subject: Trey Gunn some points-- There have been some comments made on Trey Gunn's new album, Third Star, recently. Still too sporadic to do justice to this fine album. Thus, if I may: Beautifully artistic. Layered guitars over suffling drums (courtesy of Bob Muller and Pat) and running, dense bass lines. Guitar synth mellron-like angels (or are those midi samples?) swoop in from time to time like distant echoes pleading for you to join them. Vocals that are at once beautiful and blistering. Great interaction between all parts. A very effective, complex album. (I think Fripp's playing style is starting to rub off on Trey. You can hear distinctly Fripp-like guitar lines throughout.) I'd really love to see some of these songs live, played by either Trey and and a solo band or the Left Side of the Double Trio. ("Arrakis" would translate so nicely with the Left Side, don't you think?) Questions: Can anyone translate the lyrics on the title track? I believe we have some Italian et'ers out there who can help on this one. Trey has also been receiving some comments that his playing is getting "lost in the mix" (whatever that means). If I may point out, he plays the rhythm on both Walking on Air and One Time (my favorite tracks from Thrak). And he's all over the place (loud and heavy) on THRaKaTTaK. I believe (and I may be mistaken, be kind if I am) his playing opens THRaKaTTaK Part 1 (Adrian is messing around with the drill and that guitar seems to heavy and distorted to be a piano sample from Fripp). You may not be able to pick out what he's doing all the time, but if he were gone, I guarantee you'd know it--and sorely miss it--immediately. "We are here for no purpose unless we can invent one. Of that I am sure." --Matt C ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 96 19:50:00 EDT From: "MODERN ANGEL O:)" Subject: Belewbashing, et al.... My two cents' worth on the whole Belew Thingy: To say that one or another of the vocalists or lyricists of KC is "better" than another is somewhat ludicrous. I'll grant that each of us has his/her prefer- ences, but I'd also assert at the same time that each lineup of KC had the lyricist/vocalist that best suited its sound. It's fairly common knowledge that Bryan Ferry was auditioned as a KC vocalist after Greg Lake left, for instance, but I can't (and I add, in saying this, that Bryan is probably my favorite vocalist) see him as KC material. Bear in mind, also, that the sound of KC is heavily dependant on its composition as a group; any line- up of the band would sound substatntially different if one of its vocalists were substituted for another. In adrian's defense, I'd also say that he's got the best voicce of the lot when it comes to live performance. Lake's and Wetton's respective voices have improv -ed volumes over the years, but if you listen to tapes from their respective epochs with KC, their voices aren't as captivating as te they are on the studio material; wetton especially sings as though he's got a mouthful of cold oatmeal. Other tidbits: Those who think that the Belew / NIN combination is unusual, bear in mind that AB was almost the guitarist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Finally: Yes, Adrian's written the occasional "off" lyric (I never did like "Dig Me")... perhaps it'd be interesting to let a third party act as an occasionl contributor/catalyst? Daniel Lanois comes to mind, as do Daryl Hall and David Sylvian. Thanks for lending an ear. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:06:33 -0700 From: "J.P.Lewis" Subject: Success(?) of the double trio > that KC will never take the form of a "double trio" again. The problem > with the 90's THRAK Crimso? Too many guitar strings(cooks in the kitchen) > and Not Enough Fripp. Unfortunately I have to agree with this. It was a great idea, but in practice there's often too much going on to hear anyone, esp. Fripp, who I do want to hear again someday! *----------------------------------------------------------------------- j.p.lewis i n t e r v a l r e s e a r c h palo alto ca zilla at interval dot com 415 842 6113 http://www.idiom.com/~zilla ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 21:18:34 -0400 From: Datboy Subject: Six Cooks Doesn't Spoil The Aspic >The problem >with the 90's THRAK Crimso? Too many guitar strings(cooks in the kitchen) >and Not Enough Fripp. Well, maybe that's the point of the double trio. Mr. Fripp has always eschewed the idea of being a guitar hero. What better way to cancel out that idea than to interlock guitar parts to the point that one can't tell who's playing what on any given recording? Organisationally, it's brilliant. Playingwise, I imagine it would represent quite a challenge. Mr. Fripp has always maintained that Crimso is a method of working, not an actual band per se. I imagine if too many cooks in the kitchen were the problem it would be one of those supergroup fiascos in which everyone competes with everyone else, and it wouldn't even be called King Crimson. One sixth Fripp should be all anyone would ever need out of the 90's Crimson. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:29 -0400 From: upsetter at cybercom dot net (Art Cohen) Subject: Nerve Net Jeff Said : As to Fripp's statement that his playing on Nerve Net was his best : in ten years: Nerve Net may be the best thing Brian Eno's done in the last 10 years, too... It took me a while to warm up to this album, but once I did, it turned into one of my favorites, even four years later (even if "Ali Click" is being used to advertise the N.F.L.!) --Art ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:33 -0400 From: upsetter at cybercom dot net (Art Cohen) Subject: Trey inaudible? Quoth Andrew: : : Perhaps it is because I have little experience in the inner : workings of live sound and the intricacies of KC, but I would have to say : that Trey Gunn almost never cut through the mix in the three shows I have : seen him play in the double trio, with exception of Eleph Talk and Vroom. : My "theory" on this is that the house soundmen (assuming they : don't bring their own) see the poor, misunderstood guy hammering away on : his Warr and say, "Oh sweet mother of God!! [snip] Well, I hope to H*ll that Crimson brings their own sound guy! If any band qualifies for the Grateful Dead "each instrument through its own PA" approach, it's KC. Still, I have to agree with Andrew. I saw KC three times in 95, and even sat right in front of Trey at Town Hall, but his playing was very hard to pick out, except on certain songs ("Vrooom", "Talking Drum"). : I admire him for sticking with KC even though he must hear from : everyone that he was virtually inaudible, as well as for his playing : ability and creativity. : : Any other thoughts on this? : : -ammahamma I'd love to hear if Tony or Trey have any thoughts on this subject. Guys? --Art ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:56:27 -0400 From: ErikSensei at aol dot com Subject: QUERY: ETers in Stockholm? Hello team, I'm curious if there are any ET subscribers in Stockholm. If so, could you please e-mail me privately? There's a chance I may be moving to your fair city in the very near future, and could use any contacts and advice I can get. Look forward to hearing from you! And sorry to the rest of the subscribership for a rather personal use of the bandwidth here. Peace (...a theme?), Erik D. Dahlin ------------------------------ From: Matthew Nolan Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 10:43:46 BST Subject: Double Trio fails? In ET #304, Mark Keen expresses dissappointment with the Double Trio's recordings and performances, indicating that it is an example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. This is an interesting one (and I can see it getting quite heated - the debate, not the broth!) I would like to suggest that sticking with the 4 or 5 member format would have been too easy, unchallenging and more limiting in terms of producing new ideas. I admit that maybe the sound has been cluttered and elements of individuals' virtuosity have been hidden - so far. I say "so far" because I think that maybe this is just the beginning - you can't expect perfect results every time from experimentation. But there is an immense amount of potential only hinted at occasionally in their work to date. Whether they will stick at it (sorry for the instrument pun) or change the format - only time will tell, but I don't think we should write of this (in some peoples' opinion) ugly duckling before it has chance to become a swan. The growth phase will inevitably be longer for such a complex beast to reach ultimate cohesion, but it will be well worth the wait. Yours on-the-fence-ly Matt Nolan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:45:17 -0400 From: gadget at ultratech dot net Subject: ET in TO I have to post a response in ET due to (Neil_Jones at tvo dot org ) mail being bounced back with this address provided in ET #304 P.S. are there any ETer's lurking in Toronto or vicinity? Love to hear from you! Oh Yeah, Though I mostly lurk myself, I do occassionaly creep out of the shadows to let my presence be known. RD Collins gadget at ultratech dot net ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #305 ********************************