Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #301 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 301 Wednesday, 28 August 1996 Today's Topics: re: KC and ROXY MUSIC Mexico City Crimheads Gold CD Debate petty gripes KC Live in Japan Laserdisc and thoughts on the Columbia, MD KC Fripp Monster Vinyl Auction Closes soon Great Dec. lyrics?? ET @ 300 ...what about FZ? Gold CDs Only in US? Help! Trey Gunn Interview Gold CDs redux Orbital, not Orb? Dreamband Golden Oldies When will 1969 live Crimson recordings be issued? Peter Sinfield King Crimson and Roxy Music Re: Elephant Talk Digest #299 Re: True or false? Elephant Talk T-shirts Re: Bootsy and Fripp "Elevens," "Sacred Songs," ideal KC vocalists HORDE@HERSHEY Vernon Reid's Masque Re: Scott Johnson/Supporting Roxy Music Close encounters Of The Fripp Kind Fripp and Drugs Roxy and KC King Crimson fanzine Re: Elephant Talk Digest #299 Crimson at Columbia, Md. Trey Gunn's The Third Star King Crimson Tour with Roxy Music back in '82 Gold CDs again? No! GIG REVIEWS Crimson Goes Schizoid in Philly Gig Review - Asbury Park, NJ gig reviews -- NY HORDE and Asbury Park, NJ ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Subject: oops Due to a mail problem here at ET Towers, some recent posts got delayed. This issue includes half of them. ET #301 will include the rest. If people could hold off posting until after ET #302, I'd be very grateful. Oh and by the way, the "GOLD CDs" thread is now an ex-thread. Toby ------------------------------ From: max dot bracco at iol dot it Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 19:47:39 Subject: re: KC and ROXY MUSIC Hi to all Eters ! In ET 298 and 299 was questioned if KC was billed together with Roxy Music in 1982. They didn't only play in Frejus as posted by some webfriends, but they did the whole European tour together : in fact also the Italian dates (for which I can grant) were starring the mighty KC '82 quartet edition and Roxy Music. They didn't play together of course. KC was opening the show, thundering electric storm as I remember in the Milan gig : terrific intense rhythm and killing twin guitars. Besides the songs they play also today, there was "Neal, Jack and Me" which sounded really powerful alive and "Elephant Talk" was wilder than now. After them Roxy Music seemed pale and boring in comparison, (it was the Avalon period, more a Ferry thing than a Manzanera show) and in fact I remember some people left during their gig. ThrakByes MAX from Italy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:07:26 -0500 From: marioco at spin dot com dot mx (Mario Colina T) Subject: Mexico City Crimheads Hello, any one interested in King Crimson over The Aztec city please contact me. I=B4m a King Crimson fan since the discipline LP release. Seen them twice and would like to change opinions and stuff concerning Fripp and Co. M__a__r__i__o C__o__l__i__n__a __Mexico, D.F.__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 16:11:16 EDT From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: Gold CD Debate I am writing in response to the ongoing debate over the benefit of gold CDs. In the last issue of ET, Jim Sciarra (Jim_Sciarra at msn dot com) wrote, in reference to CD technology: "...a CD player is picking up a stream of digital bits. Each bit is either '1' or '0', on or off. It is not possible for some bits to be more on or off than other bits. I do not question the fact that gold is a more reflective surface than aluminum, but I am compelled to point out that it doesn't matter. An increase in reflectivity does not affect the on or off status of each bit. Thus, it cannot possibly have any effect on the quality of the sound." Well, Mr. Sciarra, you may be an audiophile as you wrote in your posting, but you are not a logician. You make quite an inductive leap between the statement that increased reflectivity does not affect the on or off status of each bit and the conclusion that increased reflectivity cannot affect the sound quality. You assume, incorrectly, that a one is always read as a one and a zero as a zero. The benefit of gold CDs over aluminum CDs is that fewer read errors will occur with the gold media. These fewer read errors lead to less interpolation. Less interpolation of analog audio output means less distortion. Also, producers may take more care in doing a good job on all aspects of high end CDs. However, the gold is only capable of providing fewer read errors from the disk itself. In support of your general position that gold CDs are not the savior of the audio world, I suggest any doubters buy the gold issue of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and the remastered Shine On box set version. Listening to the two on a decent stereo setup, I think most people will agree that the remastered aluminum box set version sounds better. However, take that remastered version and press it on gold CDs, and that will be the best of all. ------------------------------ From: jeffw%wk dot com at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 14:55 WET DST Subject: petty gripes first, let me state that i have loved king crimson since the very first album, i was 15 at the time. i used to lie in my room with the headphones on for hours. through every personnel change and mood shift, i loved the band. it only got better. the 70's lineup was(is) still my favorite. BUT my big beef now is that i don't think adrian b. adds anything to the band. i respect his talent but who needs another guitar player when robert fripp is on stage? and to top it off, he can't sing or write to the level of king crimson. how he can stand on stage and be the voice of a band that once had gregg lake's voice, john wetton's and even boz b's. now, i feel better. but if robert fripp wants him(a.b.) in the band then who cares what i think! ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1996 17:53:44 -0400 From: "Andrew Krein" Subject: KC Live in Japan Laserdisc and thoughts on the Columbia, MD I noted while browsing through CDNow for Trey Gunn's "Third Star" a listing for King Crimson Live In Japan 1995 Laserdisc. At a hefty $90 no less. It's apparently an import. Anyone know about a domestic release? Possible Productions still lists it as forthcoming. I caught the show at Merriweather Post Pavillion on Aug. 25. A beautiful night for a concert. I could live without Vernon Reid's opening act. They would have been much better as a quartet, losing the vocalist, DJ, and the guy in the waiter's outfit playing some little electronic device. The clarinet player wasn't all that bad when he was doing something other than making squeeking noises. As for Crimson, I was totally blown away. I'll leave it to others to relate the details, but for me, the highlights were a powerful performance of Red and the amazing drum interplay between Bill Bruford and Pat Mastellato. Actually, just about everything was incredible. It was also amusing watching someone dance to Schizoid Man. He looked like he was dancing on hot coals with a live fish in his pants (in time with the music). The only thing that I would have hoped for was a more audible performance from Trey Gunn (he should have been given a solo spot). I also missed some of my favorites like Sleepless and Matte Kudesai. My non-Crimson fan fiance' commented that the crowd looked post-orgasmic after the show, that they should all be smoking cigarettes. I guess we were. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:53:35 GMT Subject: KC Fripp Monster Vinyl Auction Closes soon From: garage_sale at juno dot com Sept. 8 is the last day. Go to either URL below or email me directly for a list. Mark B. Weber garage_sale at juno dot com http://members.aol.com/garagesail/website/monstera.htm (Monster Vinyl Auction Site) http://members.aol.com/garagesail/website/kcfripp.htm (King Crimson Monster Vinyl Auction Site) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:53:10 PST Subject: Great Dec. lyrics?? From: alstew at juno dot com (Al Stewart) I'd like to throw this out to all e.t.'ers. What are your thoughts on the lyrics of the track, great deciever? Who or what are they talking about, anyone got the scoop? Also attended the Asbury pk. show (my 1st K.C. show) & if they ain't the best & tightest group this ol' boy ever seen then I give up!! Al in Ct. ------------------------------ From: David Maclennan Subject: ET @ 300 Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:57:12 +1300 Big congrats to Toby and the ET team for doing such a fine job for 300 issues now. I find ET absolutely essential for keeping up with the activities of KC and its extended family. Had it now been for ET I may never have learned about VROOOM when it came out, for example, and all sorts of other useful info about new releases, band trivia and so on. Great job, guys! Now here's hoping I, and the other antipodean ETers, get to see King Crimson in concert down this way sometime before issue 400 hits our screns.... David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:57:32 +0200 From: carenini at www dot omega dot it (Michele Carenini) Subject: ...what about FZ? Hi there. This message is not meant to be outrageous. I am an old, old Crimson fan (I'm 33 and my first record, a present from my elder borther, has been In the Court Of, when I was 10), and was wandering how Crimsonians and Eters feel like about Frank Zappa, both as a guitar and as a song writer. I don't want to believe that Crimson fans are so serious they cannot appreciate the man's music. I am a recent Zappafan ("recent" meaning from five or six years), and I think he was really a genius (as, obviously, Mr Fripp), one who could use a great amount of skill just to have fun with it. Important Warning: I am not interested in things like "Could Mr Fripp do what Zappa did" or the reverse, I just wanted to know what you think about a man who could put real good humor among marvellous guitar notes. Regards, ciao Michele ------------------------------ From: Clive Backham Subject: Gold CDs Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:21:33 -0000 In ET #300, Gordon Emory Anderson wrote some things about Gold CDs. I would like to make some comments. Emory wrote: >.... >The statements below are close to >true, but miss one not-so-well-known phenomenon that makes the difference >between good and bad digital: something called "jitter". > .... >Actually, it is now known >that not only are the bits themselves important, the "timing" or "spacing" >of the bits is also essential for good sound quality, Absolutely. Since the digital information must be converted to analogue in real time, the timing is very important. The best phrase I've ever seen (I'm sorry but I can't remember who first coined it, but it wasn't me) is: "the right bits at the wrong time is as much an error as the wrong bits at the right time". In the remainder of this discussion, I'm going to assume that we're talking only about the low level kind of jitter which can introduce distortion, and not the gross timing errors which can lead to bit errors. From Emory's comments, it appears that he is not suggesting that the jitter is ever bad enough to cause bit errors. >.... >in all phases of the >production process--recording, mastering, and, in the case of CDs--"timing >pit jitter". This is not completely right. Jitter is only relevant at the A/D (recording) and D/A (playback) stages, ie. where a conversion is made between analogue and digital. >It is now known that a poor production process can cause the >pits on the surface of the CD to be spaced "unequally", as it were, causing >great degredation to the sound quality. The pit spacing may be unequal, but this is immaterial. Forgive me if I misunderstand your beliefs about the way a CD is read, but it appears that you think that the bits are read straight off the disc and streamed directly into the D/A converter. If that were the case, then pit spacing characteristics would have a dramatic effect on the sound. However, nothing like this actually happens. The information encoded on the CD is not even in the same format as that required by the D/A converter. For a start, each 8 bit fragment is encoded as 14 bits. This allows any sequence of bits to be represented such that there will be a change in the presence or absence of a pit within three "pit positions" (not doing this would render the task of keeping the laser "on track" virtually impossible). Next, the data (together with added error correction bits) is gathered up into large blocks which are then "spread-out" around the disc. If this were not done, then even miniscule scratches would obliterate large chunks of adjacent bits, rendering the error correction inoperable. Now, after the laser assembly reads this raw data, software decodes the eight-to-fourteen modulation, applies any necessary error correction, and stores the results in a RAM buffer. Then, the data is finally clocked out of the RAM buffer under the control of a master crystal clock. The crucial aspect here is the buffer: it isolates the backend of the CD transport from any jitter artifacts of the process which reads the disc itself. So much for how the CD is actually read. Next, we get on to some interesting stuff. >Recently, even some rock musicians >have noticed differences in quality in CDs from different plants. (I like that: "even" rock musicians. Presumably the less hearing-impaired classical musicians have been noticing this for years :-) A recording engineer for whom I have the greatest respect has recently reported that CDs pressed by different plants from the same digital master sound subtly different when played on the same CD player. He has verified that exactly the same bit stream comes off the CDs, so the difference in sound must be due to jitter. Now, given the unarguable facts about CD transport operation, how can this be? The consensus at this stage appears to be that these are secondary effects. If the pit geometry is different, then the laser servos will operate differently, and therefore make different demands on the power supplies. If the power supplies are poorly designed or have inadequate isolation, then it is conceivable that noise injected into the power supply rails by the behaviour of the laser servos might in some way affect other subsystems within the CD player. CD players which exhibit this effect are in principle designed and/or manufactured less than optimally. I hesitate to use the word "broken", since it may well be next to impossible to design a CD player that is completely immune to these effects. In any case, these are *extremely* subtle effects, so much so that you might consider them within the reasonable bounds of sample variation. If you are worried aboqut jitter, there are other places where much higher levels are generated. The best way to avoid the worst excesses of jitter is to avoid splitting your CD transport and D/A converter into two boxes: the SPDIF protocol used to join these two devices is public enemy number 1 as far as jitter is concerned. It is in principle possible to build an outboard D/A converter that is almost completely immune to jitter, but the number of these that are currently available to the consumer can be counted on the fingers of a double amputee. >.... >Does gold CDs mean lower timing pit jitter? It >certainly may, particularly if the quality control processes associated >with gold are tighter. Is this due to the fact that its gold, instead of >aluminum? Gold is well know to easily form very thin, nice surfaces so >maybe. There can be no argument that gold and aluminium are different and will almost certainly have a very subtle effect on the pit geometry. But who's to say it will result in lower jitter than aluminium? All we can say is that it is different. In any case, because the plating layer is extremely thin, any such effect will be orders of magnitude lower than the effects of the basic pit geometry characteristics imposed by the glass master used to stamp the CD. In conclusion, use of gold instead of aluminium as the reflective plating on a CD is nothing more than a marketing gimmick (or perhaps you might consider it an artistic statement, since IMHO gold CDs do look nicer than aluminium). The argument that it is immune to oxidisation is fair enough, but this is irrelevant to correctly manufactured CDs. I think the main reason that people have developed the belief that gold CDs sound better than aluminium ones is that because the CDs *is* gold, the record company feels obliged to take extra care over its production, to the extent that they locate the best possible master tapes and take care over the digital transfers. The resulting good sound would be just as much in evidence were the final product to be coated in aluminium. Clive Backham Capita Managed Services Ltd. (+44) 1442 872121 clive at capita dot nildram dot co dot uk ------------------------------ From: Neil_Jones at tvo dot org Subject: Only in US? Help! Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:27:18 GMT Organization: TVOntario's Online System > To get the Discipline Records sampler* (etc.) > > This offer is only good in the US and ends October 31st 1996. AAARRGH! Another one of those great "offer valid only in the United States"! What have we Canadians done to deserve this?! I was wondering if anyone who lives in the States would be be willing to order, receive and ship this sampler disc to me, in exchange for a money order covering their costs. If you would, please an e-mail message directly to me. In exchange, I *promise* not to say bad things about American beer, football, television programs, politics, etc. Thanks, Neil_Jones at tvo dot org ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 96 08:39:43 EDT From: Jon Durant <74074 dot 1316 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Trey Gunn Interview In issue 300, Adam Levin posted a brief segment from an interview w/Trey Gunn. In it, Trey mentions the work he did with the Italian singer Alice. ET fans might be interested to note that Alice spent the Spring/Summer on tour in Europe with the following band: Mick Karn (bass), Steve Jansen (Drums), and Robby Aceto (Guitar). This excellent line up (one reviewer said "may be the best band in Europe right now") is also planning to write and record with her for her next record. While none of these musicians have direct links to the KC family, they are all well worth checking out--most of you will find their work most interesting. Jansen and Karn can be found at Medium Productions (www.demon.co.uk/medium_prod/medium.html) and Aceto can be looked up at Alchemy Records (www.musicpro.com/alchemy/) Enjoy, Jon Durant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:55:06 -0400 From: bporter at musicamusa dot com (Brett Porter) Subject: Gold CDs redux In #300, Gordon Emory Anderson goes off the deep end regarding Gold CDs and how they may or may not affect audio quality. All his arguments sound plausible, even when you know better. The fact is, that jitter is a critical parameter. However, it only comes into play AFTER bits have been: 1) read from the disc surface 2) put through 8 to 14 demodulation 3) put through the Cross-interleaved Reed Solomon error detection/correction process 4) had subcode words & timing data extracted 5) placed into a sample buffer. Here's where we get tricky. If there's jitter in the sample clock (44.1 kHz or multiple) that clocks samples into the Digital to Audio converter, there's likely to be artifacts in the audio, which may or may not be audible to humans. There is sufficient tolerance in the pit dimension specifications that the molecular qualities of the reflective surface are rendered irrelevant. You could probably replace the aluminum with a coat of white paint and get identical results. (Remember, what is important is the pit depth, which is a function of the polycarbonate substrate, NOT the reflector). Now for his other claims: >Listen to "Discipline" on a good stereo, and then >listen to "Thrak". That is the difference between early digital and the >refined digital of the 90s. Hmm. Wasn't Discipline an analog recording? However, I do agree that both recording and circuit design engineers have learned volumes about how to treat digital audio. I could also invalidate the logic by vetting Fagen's "The Nightfly" (full digital, 1981) against a crappily recorded 1996 digital recording. >As for the second comment, all optical process are certainly >electromagnetic in nature, because light is an electromagnatic wave. Spare us, please. True, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand (IMHO). >Note that an >increased reflectivity implies a greater chance that a certain bit will be >read correctly Not true. See above. There are even some CD players which will play back uncoated CDs. >Recently, even some rock musicians >have noticed differences in quality in CDs from different plants Have listening tests been done, or is this anecdotal? Remember, there are people who believe that speaker wire is directional, and that putting green ink on your CDs improves their bass response. I have no doubt that in your field you are brilliant, but statements like "CD is much closer to being an analog process than people realize" only cloud the water. BTW, I attended the 8/24 Asbury Park show & was Highly Thrakked. Especially loved the evil fake jazz groove in Thrak & the hard waltz treatment during ToaPP. BgP // Today's oblique strategy (Courtesy Brian Eno & Peter Schmidt): // You don't have to be ashamed of using your own ideas // // BgPorter at acm dot org BgPorter at musicamusa dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:11:05 -0400 From: dshaw at pop dot tiac dot net (David G. Shaw) Subject: Orbital, not Orb? Regarding the posts about Fripp's collaboration on the FFWD recording: That project was done with Orbital, not the Orb. Check the credits - it lists the Hartnoll brothers, who are Orbital. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:25:02 +0200 From: kriskras at knoware dot nl Subject: Dreamband Good day to all of you Crimsonites, Does any e.t.-er like the idea of of a band like this: Robert Fripp: Guitar/Soundscapes Bill Frisell: Guitar Mike Patton: Vocals John Zorn: Alto Saxophone Bootsy Collins: Spacebass Method Man aka The Ticallion Stallion: Raps Dennis Chambers: Drums Kevin Moore: Keyboards mixed and produced by the RZA an Future Sound Of London. I would! Martijn Martijn Busink kriskras at knoware dot nl ------------------------------ From: Matthew Nolan Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 11:42:42 BST Subject: Golden Oldies In an attempt to put this Gold vs. Aluminium CDs debate to rest, I would like to state some facts (these agree with some previous posts and disagree with others): 1. Yes, CDs are digital, all "on" or "off" bits - Al/Au no difference. 2. Light (intra or extra visible spectrum) _is_ an EM phenomenon but the reflective properties of Al/Au have negligable difference here. 3. The ONLY differences appear with AGED CDs. Some _very_ old Al CDs which were made with little attention to quality (and occasionaly newer ones) have started to oxidise from the outer edge inwards. This eventually degrades the reflectivity of the Al and increases the Bit Error Rate (BER). Any reasonable CD player can cover this up via interpolation but an "audiophile" would hear the difference in bad cases. The worst case degradation will cause skipping which even trained monkeys can hear. Increased BERs do not linearly effect frequency response or stereo image, essentially they cause distortion and add noise. This oxidation is caused by impurities on the Al or porosity of the polycarbonate. Gold (Au) is almost immune to oxidation and other tarnishing. Conclusion: In the (very) long term, a Gold CD is unlikely to degrade whereas it is _possible_ for an Aluminium CD to do so, the effects of which are usually minor. However, you are very likely never to have any of your Aluminium CDs degrade in your lifetime. Gold CDs are nice from a collectors point of view if they represent a limited edition, then again they may be a pirate CD-R! Happy listening, and don't anybody dare start up a thread on M.A.S.H., Bitstream technology, Oversampling, LSB Dithering, Sigma-Delta Converters, etc... there must be a different mailing list specially for such things. Wishing I could lurk again, Matt Nolan. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:01:19 -0700 From: mlehrer at icanect dot net Organization: Internet Communications Of America, Inc. Subject: When will 1969 live Crimson recordings be issued? Hi all. I'm definately not into rumors, but I swear that I read (probably in ICE) that 1969 live Crimson was going to be issued later this year commercially (not on a bootleg). Has anyone else read this, can confirm this? Most other eras of the band have been recorded live and issued by reputable record companies. The 1969 band, while not as outstanding as the group today, nevertheless had groundbreaking material. I am dazzled by BBoom and Vroom, and these musicians are the finest I've ever seen--ever. But when "In the Court of the Crimson King" came on the radio in 1969, I nearly lost my mind. Anyone know if '69 Crimson is coming. The boots don't do them justice. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:44:30 +0100 From: bigbang at alpes-net dot fr (A. Leroy) Subject: Peter Sinfield >In ET#299, Ghezzi wrote : > > This is my second attempt to get some information from fellow ETers >on Peter Sinfield the "words and inspiration" / and sometimes illustrator of >early King Crimson vinyl albums. As far as I know he put out a solo album >"Still" way back. Can any one bring me up to date on what he is doing these >days? Here is some info from a newsletter put out by the Voiceprint label in 1994, for the reissue of "Still" (under the title "Stillusion", with bonus tracks) : * * * * * * * * * In those heady days of the late 60's, Peter Sinfield wrote lyrics for the first four King Crimson albums, five ELP records, and produced Roxy Music. He has gone on to write some of the most successful songs of recent years, such as Cher's "Heart Of Stone", Greg Lake's "I Believe In Father Christmas" and Bucks Fizz's "Land Of Make Believe". [...] In hindsight, Peter feels there are too many different styles on "Still" : "It's because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. It's a pity I never finished the second album because I'd found out what I would do by then". However that multiplicity of styles has proved to be his strength in his later career when he has written for such divergent artists as Cher, Bucks Fizz, ELP, Keith Christmas, Michael Ball, PFM and Diana Ross. He explains : "It's because I've got a low boredom threshold. I like investigating stuff. Robert Fripp is someone who gets stuck in his ways and then follows it for a period of time; I'm a person who likes to jump about more. That's why it's always fun for me to write with someone else. It was a challenge to write the popular song - "Land Of Make Believe" - for Bucks Fizz. It's very difficult, much more difficult than writing for Crimson where I could write any old nonsense and stretch it out. To try and write things for Bucks Fizz, who didn't sing terribly well, keep it accessible and somehow make it a little extraordinary was very difficult. It was a wonderful learning experience. But I think "Land Of Make Believe" in a popular music sense stands up against some of the Crimson things. They had bits of me in them that I wanted to say". [...] At present, there are no plans for a second solo album, although he's working on a book which would include a CD with various unreleased and live material on it. And at the back of his mind is another idea : "I might sit down some- time and do a strange Eno-esque album if I have the time to do so. It would be fun to do because they're easy; to be simple and direct and write popular songs is bloody murder". Peter Sinfield is currently working separarely with two new songwriting partners : Kevin Malpass and Craig Armstrong. "These are guys with classical training who are rock-and-roll influenced. They're interesting to work with because I don't feel I can keep churning out big AOR rock songs like "Heart Of Stone" - please and proud though I am to have done so. I've got to find something between that and what I used to do". [...] And just to prove interest has not waned in the original King Crimson, Peter is collaborating on a documentary on the seminal band. The fact that his name is destined to be linked with King Crimson's for eternity doesn't worry Peter that he can never escape from his past. "One shouldn't try, and if the music had any element of timelessness about it at all, then one should be terribly pleased about that because it's very difficult to find a bit of art in the popular music animal". (c) 1994 Voiceprint * * * * * * * * * After leaving KC, Sinfield worked extensively with both Emerson Lake and Palmer and the Italian progrock band PFM. Around 1980, he also released the "From Ibiza" album with Brian Eno, which is narration against ambient music, if I'm not mistaken. I've only included a 1/3 or 1/2 of the article. The rest is interesting as well. Maybe one could ask for Voiceprint's authorization to let it be used for the website. A. Leroy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 20:37:44 +0100 From: GW Subject: King Crimson and Roxy Music King Crimson opened for Roxy Music at the following gigs: August 1982 20. : Lisbon (Belenes) 21. : Faro (Stadium) 23. : Madrid (Moscardo) 24. : San Sebastian (Velodromo) 25. : Barcelona (Narcis Sala Stadium) 26. : Cap d'Agde (Arena) 27. : Frejus (Arena) 29. : Reggio nell' Emilia (Arena) 30. : Milan (Velodromo Vigoreli) 1.9. : Rome (Castel St. Angelo) this gig cancelled due to the failure of stage set being built (according to the Frame By Frame - booklet). Ciao GW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 20:37:14 +0200 From: Inaki Prieto Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #299 >>"Roxy made the avalon tour with King Crimson in 1982." >Arnie-- not exactly sure if KC toured with Roxy Music, but they shared >the bill at least once--check out the Frejus France King Crimson >video. I saw King Crimsom opening for Roxy Music in my hometown of San Sebastian (Bask Country - Spain). It was indeed a great show but it only lasted less than one hour. I remember I couldn't concentrate on the Roxy Music show because I was completely blown away by KC performance. And I like Roxy Music quite a lot. But to have KC as an opener is quite risky for any band, isn't it?. Unfortunately, it has been my one and only KC show. Hasta luego, majos! http://web.jet.es/~inakip/ War Baby. Son of Zorro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:10:28 +0100 From: Fabio Vitali Subject: Re: True or false? >>2.Also,Roxy made the Avalon tour with King Crimson in 1982. > >I don't think they actually toured together in 1982, but they did play >together at Frejus, where Crimson's The Noise video was taped. I jump on the chance of actually contributing with a personal reminiscence. I saw KC live for the first time in Reggio Emilia (Italy) in late August, early September 1982. They were definitely on tour with Roxy Music, at least throughout Italy (I sort of remember dates in Florence and Rome). King Crimson played first, for a devoted and somehow restricted crowd. The place was then filled with stupid and younger fans interested in Roxy (they had a hit single on the charts at that time), who disturbed the last two songs of the KC show by slowly entering, looking for a seat, setting down and chatting excitedly about the show they were going to watch. Treated KC as the supporting group, more or less. Anyway, KC were terrific, Roxy Music *WAY* less. I distinctly remember a hellish "Indiscipline" that filled my heart at the time and I am still disappointed whenever I listen to the record version, in comparison to that one. A few months after the concert I remember reading an interview to Bill Bruford on an italian music magazine stating that the Reggio Emilia concert was one of their best ever, and that they had loved the audience, much better than the one in the other places in Europe and the rest of Italy. I also fairly well the poster, since I've had it hanging on my bedroom for several years before being trashed by old age and change in furnishing. They had RM and KC names in red on a blue background, Roxy Music on top and with a font distinctly larger than the one used for King Crimson. Another source of disappointment, at the time. Ciao Fabio P.S.: call it my luck: I have been in New Jersey between January and July, and KC have been playing in Europe and even quite close to home (Florence, mid June). Now I'm back to Italy, and KC are on an american tour, and have been playing in New Jersey last week. Had I known it.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:02:43 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Elephant Talk T-shirts There has been some discussion here about getting a suitable T-shirt for ET readers to recognise one another at gigs, etc. Take a look at http://www.clearsite.com/shirts/samples where James Martland, of The Amazing T-Shirt Company, has put together a mock-up of a T-shirt based on the ET home page. I think this is an excellent idea, and I've already sent him my order for one. Although his web site only includes details for European distribution, James tells me that there is a similar outlet in the USA. Not sure about the rest of the world... but email James at his web-site for details. I should add that I have no connection with this company; I simply came across them on the Web and it seemed like a good idea to ask James what he might be able to do for ET. I haven't even seen one of their T- shirts, so I can't vouch for the quality, but as I say I've ordered one and will report back when it arrives. James and his wife are clearly a couple with impeccable taste, as she apparently dusted off an original vinyl copy of In the Court of the Crimson King, which James was listening to for inspiration whilst putting together the T-shirt mock-up! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 23:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: erik simpson Subject: Re: Bootsy and Fripp You wrote: >I've often wondered what wonderful music Robert Fripp and Bootsy Collins >would come up with if they ever decided to collaborate. Since Robert loves >his dance music such as "The League of Gentlemen", imagine what the >Parliament/Frippadelic could create. I wonder if Robert and Bootsy have >ever met each other. I know Jimi Hendrix loved Fripp's playing; I wonder if >Bootsy loves Fripp's playing? This crazy thought came to me while driving >home from work. Why? Because Fripp is my favourite guitarist and Bootsy is >my favourite bassist. I believe these 2 great musical masters should get >all funked-up and jam some of the nasty shit!!! Does anyone agree with me? >I also just recently witnessed a fully operational mothership known as the >Parliament/Funkadelic in concert in Detroit a couple of weeks ago. They >amazed me just as much as Crimson did the 2 times I saw them. Both bands >are musically astonishing!!! > >Maybe I'm just too funked up! JULIAN(from Canada) > >P.S. Even a collaboration between Belew and Bootsy Collins would be as >equally mad!!! "Free your mind and your ass will follow"-Bootsy Collins This may not be as far-fetched as it initially sounds. If you have ever heard any of Bootsy's work with avant-metal-ambient guitarist Buckethead and Bill Laswell on the first 2 Praxis CD's or Bootsy's own 'cyberfunk' CD project "Zillatron" or the first 2 Buckethead solo CD's (unfortunately Japanese import only and priced as such), you will have a good idea as to what Bootsy sounds like playing with a highly technically skilled and inventive guitarist with experimental tendencies and a love for heavy guitar riffs. It's not such a stretch from there to imagine what a collaboration between Bootsy and Fripp might sound like. (Although the silly, seemingly stoned, cartoonish tangents that Buckethead and Bootsy seem to bring out in each other would seem unlikely with the seemingly ever cereberal Fripp.) An interesting idea. bye, ----- erik reid simpson eriks at on-ramp dot ior dot com http://www.ior.com/~eriks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:28:37 -0400 (EDT) From: claire shindler Subject: "Elevens," "Sacred Songs," ideal KC vocalists I heard Bill and Pat play "Elevens" at the HORDE show- where did this piece come from? Did they just make it up based on something from a THRAK ATTAK improv or is it part of some larger percussion piece they're quoting from (I'd like to believe it's from some wacked-out Cage or Varese percussion suite). I also have the same question for "Prism." I'm desperate for a copy of "Sacred Songs" and have some interesting stuff to trade. Please e-mail me if you're interested. With all the discussion about ideal Crimson lineups of the future and the ongoing consensus that they've never had a great singer (though I think Adrian's great, relatively speaking), does anyone have an opinion on which vocalists you'd like to see enter the fold? Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:07:30 -0400 From: Jaminbenb at aol dot com Subject: HORDE@HERSHEY Well, I finally got to see KC live after all these years albeit for only an hour, but BOY was I totally impressed! I thought they played wonderfully! The band even seemed to be having a good time out there. Here goes for the set list! Drums intro Thela Hun Jinjeet Red Waiting Man I'm A Dinosaur Soundscapes into B'Boom Thrak VVrooom/Coda Elephant talk Larks Tounge Pt.2 I think that's it, The show was so good that even the younge hippy-freaks that were there to hear Rusted Root were getting into it. I heard a few people ask who they were, and what they played.... They had a treat!!!! I'm sure all the stores will be out of KC discs this week!!!! Too bad I can't go to the Mann show in Philly. If anyone taped the Hershey show, I would be interested in a copy! Please E-mail to JaminBenB at AOL dot COM Thanks! Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:09:41 -0400 From: MrBERWELL at aol dot com Subject: Vernon Reid's Masque I think Masque is a great warm up band for KC. I will hopefully be seeing the show in Asbury Park (tomorrow). If anyone got a DAT of Masque from the HORDE fest, I'd love to get a copy and can offer more recordings of Vernon in return, I've got many tapes of him, going back 15 years. Masque will also be opening up for Les Claypool's new band The Holy Mackerel at the Supper Club in NYC, on 9/5. Should be an interesting show! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:35:23 GMT From: Antonio Cebola Subject: Re: Scott Johnson/Supporting Roxy Music Hi fello music lovers Concerning two recent queries: 1st - Scott Johnson's John Somebody is available on CD. Distributed by Elektra/Asylum/Nonesuch. Ref.: 79133-2. 2nd - From August 20th to August 30th 1982, KC perfomed live supporting Roxy Music. August 20th - Lisbon Belenenses August 21st - Faro Stadium August 23rd - Madrid Moscardo August 24th - San Sebastian Velodromo August 25th - Barcelona Narcis Sala Stadium August 26th - Cap D'Agde Arena August 27th - Frejus Arena August 29th - Reggio Nell'Emilia Arena August 30th - Milan Velodromo Vigoreli (Source: Booklet in KC The Essential KC - Frame by frame) Hope this is of any use. Antonio Cebola ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 17:55:00 -0400 From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Close encounters Of The Fripp Kind Recent postings in ET regarding RF's aloofness toward fans has prompted me to recall three Close Encounters Of The Fripp Kind. They all took place in the 70s and all involved backstage meetings. I should apologise for the somewhat autoboigraphical and potentially indulgent nature of this posting. 1) Following a devastating gig in December 1972, my friends and I went round to the stage door which was located in a dirty, seedy back alley behind the Newcastle Odeon. This was a cinema seating just over 2,000. A crowd of about 50 stood outside and we took to chanting the word 'Fripp Fripp Fripp Fripp' to the tune of the Spam song by Monty Python. Eventually the band emerged. They were all very amused by our choral endeavours and were content to talk to us and sign endless amounts of autographs. Jamie Muir grinned a lot and shook his head in astonishment at our adulation. Fripp himself appeared to be very comfortable and content to answer the barrage of questions that rained down on him from the crowd of eager Geordies ( the name applied to the indigenous population of newcastle Upon Tyne in the North East of England). I asked him if it was true that Brian Eno was to join the band. He replied that this was not the case but it might not be a bad idea. After about twenty minutes they got into cars and sped off with a small posse of Crimheads chasing them up the road. All the while the band waved to us from the cars, Wetton pointing and laughing as one of our number stumbled into another causing a domino effect which curtailed our car chasing activities. The band were gods and we were as high as the angels. Larks Tongues In Aspic was still a few months away. 2) In March the following year they played the City Hall in Newcastle. Again we waited for the band (now sadly minus Muir) to emerge. Once again they paused to sign autographs and chat. My sister, a friend and myself gathered round Fripp and had our photo taken. I took this opportunity to tell Fripp that I thought this band were quite probably the best in world. He laughed and said 'I'm very pleased that you do.' As the cars pulled up to take them away, Brufford warned us to be more careful this time when chasing the motorcade. We stood ready like Olympic athletes waiting for the starters gun. They pulled off and so did we. Ahead of them the traffic lights were on red and they had to slow. Luckily for them and sadly for us, the lights changed to green, leaving us standing in the empty road waving our signed album covers, ticket stubs and other memorabilia, bellowing 'CCCCCCCRIMMMMMSONNNNNNN' at the top of our teenage voices as Crimson were whisked off into the cold Newcastle night. 3) When the tour dates for the Autumn of '73 were announced Newcastle had been left off. Instead my sister and I decided to travel to Birmingham to see them. We wrote a snotty letter to the band telling that they had better get their act together and include Newcastle on the next UK tour or else. Birmingham was chilly, windswept and largely deserted it being a Sunday. We milled around outside the Town Hall and waited for the band to turn up for the soundcheck. The road crew were very welcoming and helpful, allowing us to carry in the odd but of extremely bulky equipment. When the band did arrive, they were very amused to hear our tail of woe about Newcastle being missed out and asked if we had tickets for the show, indicating that they would have let us in had we not. David Cross was so charming and polite, nodding in the right places as we burbled nervously and slightly incoherently, the way fans are prone to do. Wetton and Brufford were both equally as attentive, with only Fripp appearing a little remote and tired on this occassion. Eventually, we took our seats in the audience and settled down for a memorable concert. We clapped and cheered along with the rest of the crowd as Fripp shuffled over to the middle of stage to make one his by then already legendary announcements. You cannot imagine our delight and pride when Fripp announced to a packed house 'Good evening. I see we have some people all the way from Newcastle with us tonight.' We yelled and waved to the band against a backdrop of audience laughter and bemusement. Talk about walking on air. As a post script to all of this, in 1993 my sister and I re-united in Glasgow to see Fripp and Sylvian. After the show we walked past a deserted stage door on our way for a late night meal and wondered if we should hang around. We didn't. I think we both felt a bit too self conscious and lacking in the confidence of youth that allows one to think that you have an automatic God given right of access to your idol. Great days and great music. Great memories of a more than aimiable Fripp. ------------------------------ Subject: Fripp and Drugs Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 09:52:24 -0800 From: WOTAN >> playing thier instruments. With KC though I think you are going out on a >> limb with "heavy drugs". Unless you're including caffiene, alcohol and >> asprin as heavy drugs. >With Fripp, perfectionist that he is, you're probably right. However, >considering the era, I wouldn't be surprised if other band members up >through, say, Red, at least dabbled. Unless of course Fripp, >disciplinarian he is (pun definitely intended) forbade it. I seem to remember some interview at the time where he said something like; Drugs only work onstage if everyone is on the same drug and thats unpredictable as well. Thats not an exact quote of course. Anyway, the bottom line to the article was that he did forbid the use of drugs onstage because everybody needed to be in the same state of mind to play properly and the use of drugs made that impossible. Again, those aren't his exact words. If you look at the performance of the band playing Easy Money on "Be Careful with that Axe" you'll see that they all look pretty straight. BTW, get "Be Careful with that Axe". Get it today. Its wonderful. - Sez **************** Visit General Music 101 +===+ o +===+ at | | /|\ | | http://www.concentric.net/~selzler/ |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| |___| / \ |___| - The Road Goes on Forever - **************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:29:10 -0400 From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Roxy and KC In ET #298 Arnie Schulberg writes: >2.Also,Roxy made the Avalon tour with King Crimson in 1982. >I have never heard of Roxy and KC touring together and find that really >hard to believe. As some have already pointed out in ET #299, KC opened for Roxy in Frejus, France. That's the same gig that spawned The Noise video, and Roxy's "Heart Still Beating" live CD. The Frejus track on FbF disc 4 is also from that gig. My particular interest in this is that my brother David, and I, were at that show. My recollection was that KC did not tour with Roxy, but did play at a few shows, one of which was the Frejus show. Maybe my brother can add to that. On a completely different subject: Happy 300th to ET!!! August 19th also marked ET's 5th anniversary!!! I'm glad to have played a small part in this thing. Cheers! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 06:19:42 -0400 From: BARBARA <106155 dot 1130 at compuserve dot com> Subject: King Crimson fanzine PRESS RELEASE 20/8/96 BOOK OF SATURDAY Issue 13 of King Crimson fanzine Book of Saturday available now. Essential reading for all fans of King Crimson, interviews articles and latest news. One issue #2.75 (UK) (#3.00 EC) (#3.75 USA, Japan and rest of world). Four issue subscription #10.00 (UK) (#11.00 EC) (#14.00 USA,Japan etc) Write to : BoS Press PO Box 221 Leeds LS1 5LW UK ------------------------------ HERE! From: leslabb at prolog dot net Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: Fripp Collaborations! In ET299 Pat Bellanger mentioned the following: PB>> I've often wondered what wonderful music Robert Fripp and Bootsy Collins PB>> would come up with if they ever decided to collaborate. Since Robert loves PB>> his dance music such as "The League of Gentlemen", imagine what the PB>> Parliament/Frippadelic could create. I wonder if Robert and Bootsy have PB>> ever met each other. I know Jimi Hendrix loved Fripp's playing; I wonder if PB>> Bootsy loves Fripp's playing? This crazy thought came to me while driving How about a collaboration between Fripp and the funk master himself George Clinton. George's recent soundtrack work on Showtime's "Red Shoe Diaries" and other works have a tribal/Peter Gabriel kind of feel to it. Imagine an earthy tribal movement layered with Fripp Soundscapes. If it worked with Peter Gabriel's music I am sure it would work with Clinton's. Les ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 04:13:54 UT From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: Crimson at Columbia, Md. Gods. Gods. I saw Gods. Crimson at Merriweather Post Pavillion, Aug. 25, 1996. I saw them three times in the '80s and twice in the '90s. This was the most powerful Crimson concert I've ever been to. (My ears are still ringing). So powerful. So heavy. I almost threw up at the intensity. (lol) The crowd went nuts all night. I couldn't have been more than 20 feet from Belew. I was close enough to Bruford during Elevens that I saw the wart on his face. (Sorry Bill). The group cleary enjoyed themselves (except for Fripp. More on that later). They were laughing and making faces at each other. Belew's drill shtick was a riot. Bruford, Belew, and Mastelotto were great on their percussive thing at the beginning of the encore. (Prism?) In the early '70s, I was getting stoned with my friends and listening to Schizoid Man. Never did I imagine hearing Crimson live, playing Schizoid Man. It blew me away! Waiting Man was fabulous. Dinosaur was fantastic (even the crowd was quiet during the break in the song, thank you very much.) Three of a Perfect Pair didn't come off so great. But, the band got into The Sheltering Sky. All of 'em, swaying with the beat (except Fripp, of course). Indiscipline, Vroom, Vroom Vroom, Thrak, Red, LTiA, part II,. B'Boom. God----everything was great. Now a few words for Mr. Fripp: F him! Sitting in the shadows. Barely moving a muscle. Stone faced while the crowd was going nuts. Can hardly see him and I was 30 feet from him. Why doesn't the band just put a cardboard cut out of him and play a tape? I'm at a CONCERT. I want to SEE. If I just wanted to LISTEN, I'd put on a CD. Pompous a'hole. Screw him. All the other members were getting into it. Fripp's there sitting on his stool. I'll "drop a stool" on him. Damn obnoxious bastard. Sorry 'bout that chief. Anyway, one of the cool things was that I saw a Virginia license plate that said THRAK. Absolutely fantastic concert. I feel sorry for all you fans that won't have a chance to see them. And, "the masses" don't know what they're missing. Too bad. I live for King Crimson. Dan Wasser Gaithersburg, Md. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:46:45 -0400 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Trey Gunn's The Third Star Trey Gunn's new album, "The Third Star," has just been released. This is an excellent album and should answer all those questions people have had about just what exactly is Trey is playing in King Crimson. The album features percussionists Pat Mastellotto and Bob Muller, and vocalists Toyah, Alice and Serpentine. Besides vocals and percussion, every other sound on the album is made by Trey's 8 and 12 string Warr Guitars. Absolutely incredible! And the packaging is probably the most beautiful package I've seen for a Discipline release. The music itself covers a wide spectrum from prog to funk to ambient and world music. My own personal favorite is the title track, a beautiful ambient piece with haunting vocals by Alice sung in Itlalian. It sends shivers down my spine! You can hear a soundbite for this track at The Artist Shop , and also for the track 'Sirrah.' Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 10:03:18 CES From: mherrera at VNET dot IBM dot COM Subject: King Crimson Tour with Roxy Music back in '82 Biffyshrew recently said: > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:40:11 -0400 > From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com > Subject: Re: True or false? > > > >2.Also,Roxy made the Avalon tour with King Crimson in 1982. > > I don't think they actually toured together in 1982, but they did play > together at Frejus, where Crimson's The Noise video was taped. I can swear you that they really did tour together... I WAS THEREY At least they were in Madrid (Moscardo Stadium). I still keep the ticket, being the KC die-hard fan I've been for more than 20 years. It was the "Beat" tour and they played just before Roxy. I seem to recall that KC was not "the opening act", but the "other" band on the tour... there was in fact an "opening" with a local spanish band... only that they didn't play at all for some reason. Anyway the publicity adverted it as a "Roxy Concert featuring also KC". It was because of the success of the album "Avalon" which was almost completely performed there. The tour is mentioned in the book of the "Frame by Frame" box... there is even a photograph of Robert rehearsing in the stadium before the show. I remember that concert as some kind of magic... It was the first time I was to see KC in live and they did't dissapoint meY... By the way, I remember a special moment more or less at the middle of the show where Robert and Tony left the stage and Adrian and Bill started to play percussion in a strange instrument much like some large wooden pieces. It sounded very "ethnical"... everybody was surprised and there was a big silenece in the audience during all the theme. When they ended we were all stunned and after some absolutely silent seconds we started a roar of celebration... unforgettable... I bet it was an early version of "Prism" Regarding recent topics in Elephant Talk, Robert was very visible and smiley 'though he didn't stood from his stool. At the end he lined up with all the others waving and smiling... I guess he had a good dayY I couldn't believe it when they started playing "Red"... what a supriseY They also did "LTiA Pt.II". Manuel mherrera at spain dot ibm dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:07:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme Subject: Gold CDs again? No! Organization: "GIS INFOBIOGEN, 7 rue Guy Moquet BP8, 94801 VILLEJUIF, France" Waoh Waoh! please of oh please, let me add a little more about this sterile discussion we have about high end of materials used to press/read CD and so on. First, as an optical system, cd player is not uninfluenced by the color of the matter it meets. Laser color are close to red (the reason why some people use to let green ink on the CD to avoid loss by refraction. Remember that all this little things can affect the errors of reading rate and then the sound, though mostly everyone doen't care. But a large majority of people doesn't care either for King Crimson. Would it mean that thay are not worthy, not FIT???? I ask you. Now that was what we more or less know about the way CD reading works, with little discrepancies.... Let me tell you a true story that came from a french magazine wich pride and editorial subjects are high end HiFi systems.... q They made a few double blind test (means nor the man experimented nor" the subject" know about the things tested) testing two systems. the first was dedicated to rid the srface of the CD of static electricity. It should not make any difference. According to laser theory it should be a make believe. They had some sophisticated apparatuses with a system able to read the reading errors rate before and after applying this thing. tha rate did not change even slightly. Of course, you guess it, in the blind test, 9 out of 10 testers could tell when it was applyied and when not. They could hear a difference and they did not know before when the thing was used or not. It should not work but it works. The second one (these guys have no luck!) was the same system used to test a high end cable liked your CD drive to your digital to analog converter (for those fortunate enough to have the two separated). Same things, no difference in reading. I is just a flow of data to the converter, like any computer cable. it cannot make a difference. Again, in 9 out of 10 cases, tester could tell when used and not used. Of course, those were again blind test. Well of course one can deny all this, you can just say you don't believe it or wait for the real article to check for yourself, and that would be a fair reaction. But everyone seems to take for granted that we (mankind) know very well all aspects of the process. And if Paul, john or jack doesn't know but use it, there is somewhere the men who did it that just comprhend the all thing. But it is mankind! So, wake up, we don't master anything even if "we" invent it. "We" just claim "we" know what is done, how it's done. That's what human are god at. Pretending. Always have, always will. Let us just suppose that with good ears, it may be a difference, even if it doesn't seem possible. 3 to 2 centuries ago, music what not an art but science. A faw centuries ago, self appointed "know it all" decided to burn Tycho Brahe because he said that planets were spinning around the sun (but he still believed earth was center of the universe), just because they KNEW. Galileo, of course had a lot of trouble years later. I met someone in an evening, not long ago that told me KC was plain shit and not worthy. he KNOWS. A friend of mine who is a reat, good respected jazz guitarist here to whom i passed the latest david Torn thaought it was not really music. He plays for years, he KNOWS. I tell you, we should just stop pretending we Know so much. I KNOW it! Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ GIG REVIEWS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 13:03:23 EDT From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: Crimson Goes Schizoid in Philly The band was obviously tired and ready to go home on this last night of their tour, but the show was superb nonetheless. Vernon Reid with Masque opened. The entire set was from Reid's new album, Mistaken Identity. The show's organizers showed a lot of guts by choosing an opening act with a rapper in an easy-chair and a DJ with turntables, but the results were impressive. Vernon has come a long way since Living Colour. The band laid a funky, hard backdrop while Vernon explored fascinating sonic realms and polyrhythms. He and his bandmates (bass guitar, drums, turntables, rapper, clarinet/sax, strange MIDI controller) performed exceptionally, preparing the crowd for the best that was yet to come. Reid's show was very well received. Twenty percent or more of the crowd gave Reid and Masque a standing ovation. After a very short delay, the two ubiquitous large drums were carried onto the stage. Mastelotto and Bruford appeared and performed their drum duet, which shall remain nameless (is it Elevens?). The rest of the band came on and opened with Thela. Belew's rhythm and pitch were slightly off, as they have been at other shows for this opener. The band appeared relaxed; they were all wearing very casual attire. Levin started off with a sportjacket but soon removed it to reveal a tanktop. Bruford was not in his usual suit, but a t-shirt. Belew announced that this was the final show and that he was glad that it was in Philadelphia. The band excluded Frame by Frame, the Talking Drum, Heartbeat, People, Three of a Perfect Pair, some usual picks. I will try to reconstruct the set list, but my pen ran out of ink, so look to other reviews for more reliable lists. This is in no particular order: Elevens, Thela, One Time, Red, BBOOM, THRAK, Lark's Tongues in Aspic Part II, Sleepless, Indiscipline, Discipline, Waiting Man, VROOM, Elephant Talk, soundscapes, Dinosaur, Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream. This was the main set. And, again, I may be off on this. I believe the closer was Lark's Tongue. All of these songs were slightly rushed, but I was happy to have the rarer songs included. Fripp showed his control twice in this set. First, Belew checked with Fripp to make sure they were actually done THRAK before nodding to the audience. Second, just before the band closed their set, Fripp held his right fist high in the air. Not exactly subtle. The first encore saw Belew, Bruford, and Mastelotto with their drum trio, which was as beautiful and perfect as ever. Truly three of a perfect pair. The rest of the band joined them onstage and Belew announced, "Here's one you haven't heard in a while. Twenty-seven years, I think." Well, needless to say, the crowd went wild for the opening progression of 21st Century Schizoid Man. It was flawless. Levin carried the bass line impeccably, Funk Fingers and all. I was very happy to be at one of the few North American concerts where this has been played. The band was lit in a deep red glow for this song, which made the performance even more intense. For the second encore, we were treated to VROOM VROOM with CODA. I would have preferred to two encores in reverse order, ending with Schizoid Man, but I can't exactly complain. The acoustics were only so-so which is unusual for the KC shows I have seen, but the show was outside in an Amphitheatre, so maybe that had something to do with it. I could barely hear Gunn in the mix, which was most unfortunate. For those of you obsessed with the "Fripp Vacuum," he did not come forward for any of the bows. The most he moved was to change the settings for his soundscapes. At the very end, he did hold his hand to his forehead, as if to see how many people were in attendance. One polite request to all Crimson concertgoers. While Fripp is performing his Soundscapes, please have the courtesy to remain silent or at least whisper. Many of us do enjoy this portion of the show. Also, when the dynamics of the performers are low in volume, why do some of you insist on yelling out "Bobby," "Frippy," "Robbie," ad infinitum. This is very rude and detracts from the quality of the show. I am sure Fripp knows you are out there, but yelling out his non-names does not edify him in the least. And lastly, I would like to second the P-Funk & King Crimson tour. What a brilliant idea! Make my THRAK the K-THRAK, I wants my THRAK uncut. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:11:35 -0400 From: David Daniels Subject: Gig Review - Asbury Park, NJ Toby - this is my 1st post to ET, although it's been part of life for a while now. anyway here we go ... My 3rd Crimson Live outing. VERY cool, their first non-HORDE gig in monthes...1st time they got to play a 2 hour plus set, in some monthes. Set list went something list this 1. Fripp - Soundscapes 2. 11's (Pat & Bill Drum intro, the 2 of them beating on 2 large drums) 3. Thela Hun Ginjeet 4. Red 5. Dinosaur 6. VROOM VROOM 7. One Time 8. Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream 9. B'BOOM/THRAK (complete with wild improv) 10. Waiting Man 11. The Sheltering Sky 12. 21st Century Schizod Man 13. Three of a Perfect Pair 14. Larks Tongues in Aspic - part II 15. Indiscipline 16. VROOM (encore 1) 17. Prism (encore 2) ... a percussion piece for 3 (Adrian, Bill & Pat) 18. Elephant Talk For me highlights included: 1. Bruford walking around on stage playing the drum loop part of "The Sheltering Sky" on a wood block (tabala?) percussion thingy [you can buy them at the Nature Company and other rain forest type stores] ... it seemed he enjoyed the change of stroling around the stage quite a bit. 2. Adrian's facial expressions ... Geninue happiness, especially when he beat on his gtr and jammed the whammy bar. 3. Three of a Perfect Pair ... complete with double stick parts, yeah! 4. Pat's drumming, especially his solo on Prism, where he played only one drum ... every part of that one drum (side, top, skin, back) and his friend Bill lent his hands to the skin as to change the pitch on the drum ... Bill's fingers could have been smushed, you could NOT look away. 5. The ensemble playing of some the greatest in their field ... Mr Levin of course did not dis-appoint. 6. The Seats, 9th row, as center as it gets. What would I have changed? 1. Turned the house lights down when Fripp started his 15 minutes of soundscapes ... noisey bastards were quite disrespectful as people found their seats 2. Replace "One Time" with "Frame by Frame" 3. After 11's would of opened with "People" and then gone into T.H.G. I had seen them last year in Red Bank and I believe they played even tighter in Asbury Park. Bill and Pat seemed to be much more in sync this time around. Enjoy! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:03:07 -0400 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Subject: gig reviews -- NY HORDE and Asbury Park, NJ All, Short but sweet -- the NY H.O.R.D.E. show was King Crimson at their worst. In my book that is still pretty great, and worth the 3 hour drive and $70 for two tickets; but they were just not into it. Seeing them at Asbury Park was, well, like I imagine it might be to kiss the face of God. Perhaps King Crimson is simply not good in daylight outdoors. I saw them in summer of 1982 (was it 1983?) at an outdoor festival in Germany with Jethro Tull. They were pretty bad then, too. However when I saw them in Boston a couple of years later at the Orpheum, as THE act, indoors, at night; they were GREAT. They were great in NYC last November. But the show they did last night in Asbury Park was beyond wonderful. I'm sure others kept a perfect set list -- they did all I could hope for, and improvised, and made the old new, and made the good great, and made the great sublime, and with those songs that are already over the top, they took me places I did not know my soul could fly. If they are as good tomorrow in Philadelphia I might just be overcome by the beauty, dissolve and never be seen again. Look for the 6'6" 300# guy in a red shirt, balcony center row A seats 101,102,103 & 104 -- it might look pretty cool if I dissolve. P.S. I agree that THRaKaTTaK is great for playing Quake. -- Rick Bunker rick at bunker dot com http://www.bunker.com/~rbunker PGP keyID = B6CB9C4D Original keyserver (most keys are on it) is at : http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #301 ********************************