Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #300 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 300 Tuesday, 27 August 1996 Today's Topics: Our 300th birthday Review Spektakel Gold CDs, Again.....Sorry! Re: P-Funk/K.C. FS: Sylvian/Fripp promo Thrakattak review My chat with Trey Gunn GIG REVIEWS Crimson HORDE setlist 8.20.96 Philly Concert Philly Concert (Diff. reviewer) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Subject: Our 300th birthday Happy 300th to us! Thanks for all the support and great talk over the years. Here's looking forward to our 400th! Best wishes to all. Toby ------------------------------ From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: Review Spektakel Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 14:21:00 EST Hi Guys, here is a cd I think many Crimheads will love: Artist: Spektakel Title: Spektakel (LE1026) Label Lasers Edge Songs: The Eternal Question (15:32) Big Boss Eyes (8:58) 7 Pounds Tommy (17:34) No No Not You (Live bonus track) (20:14) History: Actually the its the pre-history of another famous German band Schicke, Fuhrs, Frohling, who's entire output was released on the Lasers Edge several ago on a superb double cd set. Eduard Schicke (drums/percussion) and Heinz Frohling (guitar, tron, vocals) were in Spektakel before forming SFF, also in the band are Werner Protzner (bass,vocals) and Detlef Wiedecke (keys). The band formed as a trio in 69 with Wiedicke on guitar. in 73 Frohling was added and Wiedecke switched to keys. The band survived one year, probably because they were all living together. These tracks were recorded in late 74 and never released!!!! The Cover (the Cover!!!) yes I must comment on the cover, it might be the greatest cover I have ever seen. Along with the usual great job Mr. Golden as done on finding and releasing this wonderful music, he has given us what might be the greatest cover ever. The music Of course its incredible, why else would Mr. Golden put it out! Along with ZNR'sPre recording it is incredible that this was never released. The music itself sounds like SFF, of course, but less keyboard heavy. It reminds me of Crimson cross maybe with VDGG. There is some incredible tron and guitar work. The drumming is superb sometimes reminding me of the work of the French band Shylock (another band serious crimheads should check out). The final live track is mostly improvised and would sound at home on the 'Great Deceiver' box set. This is truly an incredible cd, a classic that never was. it is a must have for all lovers of early 70 prog, krautrock or tron work. Ken Brown (brownkj at imsint dot com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:55:05 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Gold CDs, Again.....Sorry! KC Brethren: My point in my recent post was not really to re-hash the excellent discussion we had some time ago on the subject of gold CDs, but instead merely to address the manner in which all considerations of the subject were attacked. I thank the posters below for the civil tones, and thought out (though erroneous) responses. The statements below are close to true, but miss one not-so-well-known phenomenon that makes the difference between good and bad digital: something called "jitter". I'll explain below, but the comments first: >Emory is trying to imbue the medium with analog characteristics, but the >fact is, the laser in a CD player is picking up a stream of digital bits. >Since gold does not oxidize, it is a >preferable choice for long-term performance. But CD's are read by an >optical process, not an electromagnetic one. As for the first comment: Believe it or not, CD is much closer to being an analog process than people realize. (Remember first of all that those bits must be changed into analog music somewhere.) Actually, it is now known that not only are the bits themselves important, the "timing" or "spacing" of the bits is also essential for good sound quality, in all phases of the production process--recording, mastering, and, in the case of CDs--"timing pit jitter". It is now known that a poor production process can cause the pits on the surface of the CD to be spaced "unequally", as it were, causing great degredation to the sound quality. Recently, even some rock musicians have noticed differences in quality in CDs from different plants. This phenomenon is so important that recently the Philips "Red Book" (the standard, by the inventors of CD) was revised for the first time in its history of over 20 years to include jitter specifications. What does bad digital sound like? Listen to "Discipline" on a good stereo, and then listen to "Thrak". That is the difference between early digital and the refined digital of the 90s. Does gold CDs mean lower timing pit jitter? It certainly may, particularly if the quality control processes associated with gold are tighter. Is this due to the fact that its gold, instead of aluminum? Gold is well know to easily form very thin, nice surfaces so maybe. As for the second comment, all optical process are certainly electromagnetic in nature, because light is an electromagnatic wave. (You may have mixed up the word "electrical" with electromagnetic). Note that an increased reflectivity implies a greater chance that a certain bit will be read correctly, meaning a lower bit error rate and therefore better sound. But really, BER is probably not a sound quality factor, but jitter (even as low as 30 picoseconds) certainly is. -Emory. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 18:19 CDT From: crimso at ais dot net (crimso) Subject: Re: P-Funk/K.C. >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:33:26 -0700 >From: Patricia Anne Belanger wrote: >Parliament/Funkadelic & King Crimson on Tour together!!!(I wish). Whoa! I'll vote for that. I foolishly thought I was the only E.T.er into P-Funk. -frank -- *************************************************************************** F. J. Mundo - crimso at ais dot net - http://www.cl.ais.net/crimso/crimso.html ------------------------------ From: gondola at deltanet dot com (E.B.) Subject: FS: Sylvian/Fripp promo ETers: Well, I hesistated to post this shameful plea-for-bucks earlier, but after that unbelievably crude offer in the last ET (someone asking 25-and-up women to basically "audition" for free Crimson tickets), I feel more comfortable with this offer. I have a rare promotional-only CD sampler that was released at the time of Sylvian/Fripp's The First Day. It's called God's Monkey: Retrospective, and collects 15 Sylvian-related tracks from throughout the years. It lasts over 75 minutes. I suppose many of you already know about this disc. None of the tracks are ESPECIALLY rare, but you know, it's a collector's thing. The tracks are: 1-3. "God's Monkey (edit)", "Jean The Birdman," "Brightness Falls" (from The First Day) 4. Sylvian & Ryuichi Sakamoto/"Heartbeat (Tainai Kaiki II) - Returning To The Womb" (from Sakamoto's Heartbeat album) 5-6. Rain Tree Crow/"Blackwater" and "Every Colour You Are" (from the RTC album) 7-8. Sylvian/"Orpheus" and "Let The Happiness In" (from Secrets Of The Beehive) 9-10. Sylvian w/ Fripp/"Silver Moon" and "Taking The Veil" (from Gone To Earth) 11. Sylvian/"Words With The Shaman" (from Alchemy) 12-13. Sylvian/"The Ink In The Well" and "Weathered Wall" (from Brilliant Trees) 14. Sylvian & Sakamoto/"Forbidden Colours" (acoustic) [ie Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence] 15. Japan/"Ghosts" (from Tin Drum) E-mail me privately with offers. I suppose the minimum bid would be, ummm, $13? I also MIGHT entertain a Damage swap offer (I don't own/haven't even heard that), depending on the magnitude of the cash bids. Thanks, Eric ------------------------------ From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Thrakattak review Caught a very favourable review of the Thrakster's in a magazine called The Wire which covers stuff from free Jazz, Ambient, Reggae, Rock, etc. it says: "While 99% of pop/ rock grups still see liver performances as nothing more than an opportunity to reproduce studio recordings in front of a live audience (and 99% of pop/rock fans expect this), King Crimson have regularly incorporated structured and free improvisation into their live sets. For a group that's been reviled (as well as revered) for nearly 30 years, they've certainly taken more creative risks than most. Their albums have also included significant chunks of Improv, the earliest being the ten minutes or so of low-key guitar, bass, drums and vibes that comprise the better part of Moonchild on their 1969 debut, ITCOTCK; others include LTIA, SABB and Red. However, the most impressive place to sample 70's KC improv is the 4CD set TGD released by Virgin in 1992. But Thrakattak goes further than any previousCrimson album, being the first to consist entirely of improvisations. The eight here were recorded live on the latest double trio's 1995 Thrak tour of Japan and the USA. Everybody having embraced new electronic technology for guitars or percussion, this is the most hi-tech and extreme sounding KC to date. The scale and density of this music sometimes borders on the terrifying, as layer upon traumatic layer of noise, distortion and warped tonality build up. But the diciplined construction of these dark forces is always evident. The two percussionists use space intelligently, saving their combined polyrhythmic attack for well timed, sporadic bursts; Brufford's ornate marimba runs and Gunn's (presumably) Warr guitar, which sounds like a piano, recall the tone colours and staccato clusters of the Cecil Taylor Unitor Olivier Messiaen. Yet this is distinctive Crimson music, so much so that for all its MIDI sophistication, Fripp's 'soundscaping' system is often used to create the sort of overarching nightmarish string / choral sounds that emerged from two temperamental mellotron's in the mid 70's. As powerful a collision between Improv and avant rock as you're likely to hear, Thrakattak is King Crimson's finest hour." Chris Blackford was the reviewer and you can check out the rest of the mag on the web by checking out http://www.sat.dundee.ac uk/~arb/music/wire.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin Subject: My chat with Trey Gunn [ The following is an excerpt from an article I'm in the process of writing. It will include a review of the August 25, 1996 King Crimson show at Merriweather Post Pavillion and Trey Gunn's new release _The Third Star_. This excerpt may not be reprinted without permission. ] Yesterday afternoon Trey Gunn of King Crimson invited me to stop by and talk before their show at Merriweather Post Pavillion in Columbia, MD. I arrived at the Pavillion at 6pm and was escorted down to the VIP area- a building with a large covered deck. Trey came out and we sat down at one of the picnic tables near the back of the deck to talk. Trey gave me a copy of his new album _The Third Star_ and a new Discipline Records promo sampler which includes tracks from various Discipline releases. Several of the tracks are from forthcoming releases. It has songs by Trey Gunn, King Crimson, Robert Fripp, The California Guitar Trio, Ten Seconds, Los Gauchos Alemanes, Adrian Belew, Europa String Choir, League of Crafty Guitarists, Tony Levin, Gitbox, and Peter Hammill. Of significant note is "Epitaph" from the forthcoming album _Epitaph: Live in 1969_, an archival King Crimson release. The sound quality is excellent. Light years ahead of the '69 recordings on the _Frame by Frame_ box set. Here's a small excerpt of our conversation: TG: We made this because alot of people don't know about Discipline Records. It's 23 cuts. One cut from every Discipline record plus some other unreleased stuff. It's 78 minutes and it's a great record. It's probably the best Discipline record. It's the best of everything. AL: This must be brand new. I haven't seen it anywhere yet. TG: It's not even for sale. What we've been doing is we've just been giving out these postcards. If you send us $3 and your mailing address we'll send you the sampler. For now it's just kind of a promo get acquainted offer. AL: So if anybody wanted this they could just write in for one? TG: Yes, all we want is your address so that we can torture you in the future! AL: When did you have time to record your new album? Haven't you been touring pretty heavily with King Crimson? TG: Yeah, we've been touring for the last three months, but we had a several month break when everyone was doing their own stuff. Whenever I had time. I'd do a couple of days here, then go to New York for a couple of days, but most of it I did at home. So whenever I had a week or five days I'd do it. It was all done within the last eight months, except for one track which was recorded about four or five years ago. The percussionist, Bob Muller and I recorded it in his basement on a little 8 track. AL: Was that from the sessions for the last album? TG: No. It was even before that. But it didn't fit on the last record, so I didn't use it. It was done on an old Tascam 8 track. We liked it so much that we hooked it up to a 24 track. He redid some drums, but I didn't redo anything. AL: Who else worked on this one with you? TG: Pat Mastelotto plays [drums] and co-wrote two songs with me. Bob Muller plays almost all of the percussion and drums except for those two songs. Then there's three singers: Toyah co-wrote and sang a song, this very crazy singer from New York named Serpentine sings on one, and this Italian singer called Alice - she co-wrote the title song "The Third Star". The way the title song was written, we were never actually together. I wrote the backing track, mailed it to her in Italy. She wrote and sang on it, sent it back to me. I rerecorded it, changed a few things, sent it back to her. She did the vocal, sent it back and that was it. AL: Are you going to get a band together to tour in support of the album? TG: I'd like to. I don't know whether I'll get it happening this fall or in the winter. As soon as I figure out the musician situation. We'd do it as a three piece with another Stick player, myself and Bob on percussion. I don't know what the logistics are, whether I can have a singer and another drummer and still do it, or not. AL: Do you have any plans to do anything with King Crimson, or is that on hold for awhile? TG: We finish tomorrow after three months of touring and that's the end of our live work for a while. We may do some festivals in the summer of next year in Europe, but we're not so sure. Basically we're just going to start writing new material, which we plan to do through next year. We'll record in the Fall for a new release. AL: Do you still plan on doing some shows down in Buenos Aires? TG: Originally we thought that we'd go down there to play out the new material, but now we're thinking that we'll do these festivals next summer [in Europe] until the new record comes out. We're going to definitely go back there, but we haven't been to Chile or Brazil yet, so I think the next time we go down it will be a little different. AL: But basically everyone is going to be on their own for a while? TG: Yeah, although Tony is coming to play with me. Pat and I are going up to Adrian's to do some writing. Pat, Robert and I were talking about going out as a trio to do some shows. AL: That wouldn't be billed as King Crimson, though? TG: No, we have the idea now about Crimson projects which would be any configuration of the six of us. With smaller configurations playing and recording at a time. Maybe we'd do some shows if we feel like it. Not quite full-scale Crimson. AL: If it was Pat, Robert and you, would you be doing the vocals? TG: No, what we have been talking about is a kind of 90's version of The League of Gentlemen playing clubs. A more dance-y loopier thing with Robert's very wild soundscapes and heavy grooves. AL: That would be very cool! TG: Yeah, we got kind of excited about it, talking about it the other day. The rest of the conversation veered off into a more personal direction with talk about mutual acquaintances and various other things that don't bear repeating in this forum. Eventually things wound down and Trey had to get going to prepare for the show, so we said our goodbyes and I headed out of the VIP area to the sounds of Vernon Reid's band doing their soundcheck. This interview excerpt and various other information about Progressive Rock is freely available from The Progressive Rock Web Site at http://prog.ari.net/prog/ To get the Discipline Records sampler, send $3 (cash, check or money order) to: Possible Productions 351 Magnolia Ave Long Beach, CA 90802 This offer is only good in the US and ends October 31st 1996. You can check out Possible Productions' web site at http://www.rockslide.com/possible/ ...and last but not least, Trey Gunn's artist profile: http://www.rockslide.com/crimson/trey/trey.html -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti ------------------------------ GIG REVIEWS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:17:21 -0400 From: pgallant at cbclegal dot com Subject: Crimson HORDE setlist 8.20.96 Here's the setlist from the 8/20/96 show at the HORDE festival at Darien Lakes in Buffalo, NY. Longer review to come eventually! Thrum Thela Hun Ginjeet Red Dinosaur Waiting Man VROOOM VROOOM B'Boom THRAK (out of control!!!!!!) Three Of A Perfect Pair Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II Great show. Not a lot of time to play and they really did a good job of squeezing as much energy into the alotted 60 minutes. Pat Pat Gallant pgallant at cbclegal dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 20:15:58 EDT From: puchalir at rosnet dot strose dot edu (Robert S. Puchalik) Okay, so I've been reading reviews opn ET for quite some time, and last nights show was finally the one to push me to write a reveiw. I'm kinda new at this so bear with me. King Crimson - Asbury Park 8.24.96 - "Stop me if you've heard this before." The show opened with Robert coming on stage to thunderous applause. The room lights never went out, and he did a relatively short soundscape. I think he might have been a little ticked that everyone was being loud and obnoxious while he was trying to perform. The lights were never out, so I guess ppl didn't see the somewhat short guy on stage making funny noises with a guitar. Anyway, the lights finally went out after maybe 15 minutes, Ade, Pat and Bill came out, Ade but on his guitar and took a seat on Fripp's riser while Bill and Pat did the standard, yet still impressive, Drum Intro. Then Ade broke into "Thela" and everyone came out, drummers got behind their kits (Bill's had been altered, but I'm sure someone else has mentioned the new layout.) Then, after a few mainstays of the tours were performed "Red," "Dinosaur," and "VROOOM VROOOM," and the only somewhat slow song of the night, "One Time," somewhere in there too. Then, everything went completely nutsoid. They first broke into "3oaPP," which neither I nor my friend Mike recognized right away. Then, I looked away for a moment and when I turned, I thought I saw Fripp, playing on Bills electronic kit. It was merely a similarly dressed Pat, opening up "Waiting Man," but I nearly lost it completely for a second. Both of these songs I had heard of them playing on the previous two tours, but then came "Schizoid Man." I had heard that they were playing it this tour, but Mike had not. I looked at Mike, and he was gaping. By the end, so was I. No advanced warning could have prepared me for that. Ade's vocals cut out for a second during the second verse, I beleive, but it was still incredible It got a standing ovation, and Ade said "It's about time we played that." Following "Schizoid Man" was another opne I'd not heard live: "The Sheltering Sky" it amazed me that, with all of the incredible electronics upon that stage, that one of the coolest sounds of the night would come from a block of wood. It was also funny to see Bill roam the stage for a while. You get that the sense that he had always wanted to. Then the show continued on in soemwhat usual Crimzoid fashion. We returned to the regular mainstays of the set, but there was a noticeable upbeat-ness to both Ade and T.L. (who, incidentally, played more qincredible than I had ever seen him play before. Outstanding work by Tony.) It was obvious that Adrian was having a good time, thanking the crowd after nearly every song, and talking more than I had ever seen him talk before. This upbeat-ness came to a head during "Indiscipline," where he added "Stop me if you've heard this before..." after the first line, then proceeding to do an extraordianrly speed up and insane first verse. I nearly peed my pants. "Stop me if you've heard this before" became the quote of the night. Then, the set ended on LtinA II and outcame Bill, Pat, and Ade to do the Drum Intro for the encore. The unspeakable happened. After Bill exectued a few exceptional wood block rolls during his "solo," I turned to Mike,m and Mike said "That was really good." I replied, jokingly, "Yeah, he's a pretty good drummer." Then turned my attention back to Bill oonly to see him drop a stick. The crowd went wild, letting out an "Ahhhh..." which then turned into wild cheers of approval for Bill, as if to say, "even when you drop a stick, Bill, it's still cooler than most other drummers' playing." Bill turned BEET red. They finished the drum intro and continued into "VROOOM," and that was followed by "Elephant Talk" as a second encore. The show was an unusual night of screw-ups, between Ade's vocals cutting out during "Schizoid Man" and Bill dropping his stick, and Mike even said that he heard Fripp screw up a few times (BLASPHEMER!!) Fripp, did not, in an unusual twist, come out to the front of the stage after the show, he stood on teh riser with his hands behind his back. I read into this, of course, and came up with the idea that perhaps he thoguth he hadn't played as well as the others. That is purely conjecture tho. However, it remains the best show I have seen in a long time. The setlist went something like this: Drum Intro Thela Red Dinosaur VROOOM VROOOM 3oaPP Waiting Man Schizoid Man Sheltering Sky B'Boom THRAK Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream Indiscipline (At the beginning if this, there were MANY cheers for Bill, and I think he might have held back for the first few bars because of those. Just to tease. Once again, conjecture.) LTinA II Encores: Butterfingers Drum Intro VROOOM Elephant Talk Surprisingly, a few of what used to be setlist mainstays were gone from this list "Frame By Frame," and "Two Sticks" was outsted in favor of just a plain opening to "ET" All in all, great show, and nice haircut for Pat. At least he doesn't look like Meatloaf anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 01:08:54 -0400 From: Mopobeans at aol dot com Subject: Philly Concert George Korein's review: A damn good concert. These guys are so talented that it emanates from them like an aura that expands a hundred yards in every direction. From the incredibly disciplined drum intro to full-throttle renditions of Vrooom, Vrooom Vrooom, Red, 21st CSM, and LTiAp2, to the soothing One Time and Sheltering Sky, to the incredible drumming of B'Boom and Prism. 21st CSM was great but the vocals on it lacked. The audience witnessed complex melodic drumming in Waiting Man. No, tey din't have anything up their sleeves for this (being the final show of the tour), but I did not mind. Levin did some cool bowed upright in Vrooom's coda and did mad stick in Neurotica. I eagerly anticipate the arrival of their next studio album. Note: if I didn't say this before, the main user of the Mopobeans name is George Korein. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 01:42:18 -0400 From: Mopobeans at aol dot com Subject: Philly Concert (Diff. reviewer) Leo Korein: Highlights - Drum intro, Indiscipline, Drum trio, 21st Century Schizoid man, Vroom Coda. Dissapointments - Thrak, 21st Century Schizoid man, Red and Vroom Vroom back to back, the songs from Beat. Bill Bruford is simply amazing. His drumming is as impeccable as his taste in clothing is not. The synchronization in the drum intro was beautiful aurally and visually. The improvisation between Bruford and Belew during Indiscipline was a wonder to behold. 21st century Schizoid man is, well, it's 21st century Schizoid man and therefore was automatically a highlight. However, Belew's vocals were the dissapointment (he even missed a cue). Also, it was dissapointing that they only crescendoed once to finish Schizoid man. (I love the double crescendo on the original recording!) The Vroom Coda was a highlight because of Levin's awesome staccatoed upright bowing. I hate Thrak. Not only do I hate Thrak, but I hated the improvisation that occurred from it. It was the only point that Fripp improvised and he seemed determined to ignore the rest of the band. The other band members seemed to more or less follow suit and what resulted was a jumbled mess of talented musicians lost in their own worlds. Red and Vroom Vroom back to back, especially at the beginning of a show, is simply to much of a sonic assault. It made me fear that the show would degrade into an awesome noise fest leaving the music behind. I can't stand Beat. I took a nap while they played songs from that album. Two side notes: 1) I saw H.O.R.D.E. two days earlier when they were in Philly Crimsonless. I have no idea how anyone could watch King Crimson and then 311 and remain at their seats. (Especially, when surrounded by drunk people.) However, Blues Traveler and Rusted Root were both excellent. I didn't completely waste my money. 2) Masque, Vernon Reid's band, opened for Crimson and were a suprisingly good match for Crimson. I never liked Living Colour (Reid's old band) and didn't expect much but their interestingly unique sound provided good entertainment. At the best they sounded sort of like Vroom with a bizarre hip - hop twist. Definitely worth looking into. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #300 ********************************