From toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Thu Jun 18 09:15:58 1992 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 91 17:04:34 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: Discipline #3 Discipline, Number 3 Friday 23 August 1991 6 Topics Today: Re: Displine #2 Re: Fripp list Usenet Artists Polls #3 - Results for King Crimson Re: Rabbitt, Vangelis, and King Crimson Mc Donald & Giles Articles, USA ************************************************************ From: Mark Crimson Friedman To: Toby Howard Subject: Re: Discipline #2 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Aug 91 11:58:51 BST ]Also, recently on the Net News I saw someone with a sig that had a quote ]from Fripp dated within the last month or so, which I would paraphrase or ]recall as saying "King Crimson never has been past tense" or something to ]that effect which suggested that Fripp doesn't consider Crimson dead yet. Errr, that must've been me! It wasn't quite dated so recently, but he mentioned the quote at the Crafty gig here at OSU... He was telling us about all the faulty advertising he'd seen on the tour. First he didn't like "Robert Fripp's League of Crafty Guitarists", as he'd seen it several times, because the League was its own and did not belong to him. He also said he didn't like seeing his name so boldy printed before the League's because this wasn't his tour. Finally he came to: "I've also seen mentions of `Former King Crimson guitarist Robert Fripp'. This is also incorrect: there is nothing former about King Crimson..." Naturally, the (LARGE!) crowd went wild, and I thought to myself, "Now that would be a great quote for my .signature..." :-) - Mark (Klone Crimson!) Oh, and I have more "evidence" for the reforming King Crimson: it has to deal with a recent _Reflex_ magazine interview. More later. +----====>>>))) Mark Friedman is friedman at cis dot ohio-state dot edu (((<<<====----+ | "There is nothing former | (Disclaimer : the opposite of Datclaimer) | | about King Crimson." | "I used to have a photgraphic memory | | - Robert Fripp, 5/11/90 | but it was never developed..." | > -.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----.. < -------------------------------------------------- From: malcolm%yuba%wrs at uunet dot UU dot net (Malcom Humes) Subject: Re: Fripp list To: toby%computer-science dot manchester dot ac dot uk%uunet at uunet dot UU dot net (Toby Howard) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 15:37:51 PDT In-Reply-To: <9108201045 dot AA01788 at r3h dot cs dot man dot ac dot uk>; from "Toby Howard" at Aug 20, 91 11:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: malcolm%yuba%wrs at uunet dot uu dot net As I mentioned, this was recently posted on rec.music.gdead, where you'd think it would have stirred up a little debate about Bootlegs and live taping, but it didn't seem to. The footnote at the bottom says this was in Musician magazine about 1979. Personally, I recall seeing this or a similar article around 1980 or 1981 and thought it was in Downbeat. The article I remember reading later appeared on a bootleg lp of King Crimson live at Stoneybrook U. in NJ in 1981. The slickly packaged boot had a red cover very similar to Discipline and was titled "INDISCIPLE - Mining Rocks". The Fripp article was reprinted on the back cover! I'm not certain if that was this same article or one similar in content. Anyway, I thought that took some balls. I'll bet Fripp turned green if he ever saw it. Anyway, call me a hedonist or whatever, but I don't agree with the last part. I want to re-live the moment, lose my virginity over and over again, and tape live shows and trade them with my friends. I was just a kid when Crimson toured in the 70's so I didn't have the chance to see them live then. So I should be denied the opportunity to hear tapes of what they sounded like live? I recently found a tape of National Health live in 1979 on the same tour that I saw them on shortly before Allan Gowen died. It was such a pleasure to hear them again just as I heard them 12 years ago. It may not have repeated the exact pleasure I had seeing them live (especially since I was drunk at that show) but it sure did bring back some memories that I can't dredge up by listening to their lps. I think Fripp is partly uptight about his position in history and how well the material will age over time, and a little afraid of having a particularly embarrassing moment of error or improv or whatever captured for posterity and re-lived again and again. I've heard some recordings of the making of 3 of a perfect pair that show how HARD they had to work at getting that lp together by practicing and exploring different tempos of the pieces to get it together as a product. He'd probably drop dead if somebody bootlegged that material or some of his noise improvs from the show he did in Plumpton England in 1969. -malcolm at wrs dot com Bootlegging, Royalties and the Moment by Robert Fripp There are two sides to bootlegging: professional and amateur. I recognize that at its real level music belongs to everyone. In fact, the ownership of music is a fairly recent phenomenon. It began in the 19th century, and was firmed up in the 20th by the Copyright Act of 1911, the formation of the PRS in 1914, the Composer's Guild (straight) in 1944, the Songwriters' Guild (popular) in 1947 and the Copyright Act of 1956. All these reinforced the notion of music as personal property; this is our market background. Given that background, if money is to be made by the sale of my work then I wish to receive my share of it. All of the sex scenes in "Emanuelle" feature music lifted from "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part II." Following a lengthy legal action, my rights as composer have been acknowledged and a settlement made out of court. The implication that receiving royalties for one's work is inherently bad I find very queer and somehow peculiarly English. I espouse, through the Drive to 1981, "Action in the market place but not governed by the value of the market place." This presents all the dilemmas regarding money that any sane soul might need. Having lived in the States, I've seen some of the contradictions of a commercial culture, the other side of the famed "American Dream." And I'm familiar with Proudhon's "property is theft," communalistic philosophy and praxis, and some of the arguments of the Leveller, Ranter and Digger movements of the 17th century -- all reactions against our widespread belief in the sanctity of private property. Facing all the hazardous contradictions borne by that sanctity, the real issue is surely: what might one do with one's royalties? The principle I follow is that proprietary advantage involves proprietary responsibility; that is, if one makes more money that one needs, there is an opportunity to use it socially. Different religions traditionally recommend giving 10 to 15% of one's income to charities; the church tithe was compulsary; our tax system is _supposed_ to enforce the proprietary responsibility, by involuntarily redistributing income more equally than it is divvied up, willy-nilly, by market forces. I recognize that different kinds of people want -- and therefore feel they "need" -- different standards of living, and that mine is higher than some and lower than others. The wide difference between class levels seems queer, the exploitation and social pretension ot involves is offensive. What I've chosen to do is to support a farming project in Cornwall, an adult education experiement in the States and a naturopathic hospital in England. The hospital is bankrupt, the farm and school are in serious trouble. The League of Gentlemen has a deficit of $30,000; my house has no hot water and the rain leaks through the roof; and, keep in mind, I wish to remain financially independent of the industry so that my musical choices remain personal and musical. And then there are those concert-goers and record-buyers and ideologues and "fans" who criticize artists who seek full royalty payment for their work and who try to halt exploitation of same by profiteering bootleggers. Forgive me but I find their posture exasperatingly naive. Conversely, I have great sympathy for amateur bootleggers. With them, enthusiasm for the music is the motive. After all, are not the best Charlie Parker tracks live bootlegs? I also know quite a few performers who don't mind, such as the Instant Automatons in England [and the Grateful Dead -- hbm], who have gone so far as to provide a facility wherein audience members may hookup their cassette recorders to the hall's mix-board. Admirable, but not for me. My views are generally known to my audience; to bring a recorder is a deliberate violation of the ground rules, at best a violation of courtesy: it's rather like taking notes of a personal conversation to circulate of publish later. This from someone who's been a steady fixture on bootleg lists for over seven years. Now we come to the humanistic and philosophical reasons why I oppose the furtive taping of live music. I am seeking the quality of attention, of being in the moment without expectation and without history, the moment between the human _being_ and the human animal behavioral psychology so terrifyingly describes. As Blake put it, "He who bends himself a joy/Does the winged life destroy." Experiencing a piece of music repeatedly in an active state has its own qualities and merits. On tape, music is music: good, bad, lively, lethargic, spirited or whatever. In live performance, the music is still music there is another element: the music mediates a relationship between the player and the listener. This relationship is fragile and easily spoilt. To try to pin it down desrupts it, much like writing down one's thoughts during a meditation significantly disrupts the very process of meditation. For some players, this presents no difficulties, as with cameras, but it does for me. After all the years and miles I've covered with music, I've fully realized the significance of of the relationship between player and listener; what in music could be more primary, more valuable? To experience a piece of music once and only once is to experience that relationship in its most crystalline form. It cannot be repeated: how many times can one lose one's virginity? "This will prove a brave kingdom to me, Where I shall have my music for nothing." - Shakespeare, _The Tempest_ Originally appeared in _Musician_ magazine, circa 1979. Reprinted without permission. -------------------------------------------------- From: sommar at enea dot se (Erland Sommarskog) Newsgroups: rec.music.misc Subject: Usenet Artists Polls #3 - Results for King Crimson Date: 19 Aug 91 19:56:33 GMT Organization: Enea Data AB, Sweden Here are the results for the King Crimson poll. Slightly delayed because of problems with a modem at the Swedish backbone. The most successful poll this far. 38 people vote which is a nice figure. Also, many ballots were complete or almost complete. (Both the Deep Purple and the Art of Ensamble of Chicago polls saw several ballots with onlt 2-3 entries.) My thanks to everyone who voted. I also like to express my thanks for obeying to the format I have stated in the instructions. This helps my tallying quite a bit. Here are the results, some personal comments at the end: Total number of ballots: 38 TITLE POINTS LISTED FIRST LAST ===== ====== ====== ===== ==== 1. Discipline 793 34 8.33 2 2. Larks' Tongues In Aspic 792 35 7.50 0 3. Red 725 35 8.33 1.50 4. Starless And Bible Black 661 33 7.33 2 5. In The Court Of The Crimson King 325 37 4 2 6. Young Person's Guide To King Crimson 160 3 0 0 7. Lizard 141 31 1 1 8. The Compact King Crimson -20 3 0 0 9. USA -126 23 0 2 10. In The Wake Of Poseidon -348 31 1 5 11. Beat -417 31 0 2 12. Three Of A Perfect Pair -443 32 0 4.50 13. Islands -527 29 0.50 5 14. Earthbound -1305 16 0 11 Mentioned once each were also "Unpronounceable", "Dr. D." and "Elephant Walk". I assume all these are bootlegs. Comments: Well, I guess have to change the algorithm again, at least for this poll. I mean something must be wrong when that over-rated album "Discipline" ends up first, although with smallest possible margin to my personal #1, "Larks' Tongues in Aspic". Seriously we see that the Wetton/Bruford/Cross studio albums competes very well. I am surprised that "USA" didn't make it better, I think this is an excellent live album. I am also slightly surprised to see the debut album being ranked so high, and although I didn't expect to see "Islands" come very high, I didn't expect next-to-last. But it is with some relief I notice that the two later Bruford/Belew/Levin albums appear towards the end. Finally, the most clear verdict in this poll is not in the top, but in the other end. "Earthbound" is by the net community by far regarded as Crimson's worst album. 11 of 16 who mentioned it had it last! Sorry, Bj|rn, not everyone has found that energy you talk of through the noise or this technically inferior recording. Next poll is The Beatles. See separate posting. -- Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar at enea dot se -------------------------------------------------- From: MHB at mitvma dot mit dot edu Newsgroups: rec.music.misc Subject: Re: Rabbitt, Vangelis, and King Crimson Date: 1 Aug 91 14:12:22 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Re Earthbound, Fripp once said the album was released to prove that the band should have broken up. The Live in the USA album by the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford/Cross version of the band has also not come out on CD, again because Fripp doesn't like it. Am I the only defender Lizard is gonna get? It's a great album, atmospheric and enigmatic, unique in the Crimson oeuvre. I heard the band had worked out all the arrangements prior to recording, then they got to the studio and Fripp declared that they weren't to play anything the way they'd rehearsed it. It contains not only Keith Tippett spraying piano mists all over everywhere, but (on the suite that takes up almost all of side two) some of his cronies from the English free jazz world: Mark Charig on cornet (see also Soft Machine), an oboist whose name I can't remember, etc. The music starts out precious and Arthurian, then there's the war sequence that blows the lid off, then a guitar solo that sounds like the inside of a black hole. Great stuff. Then there's the first side of the album-- "Cirkus" is a drug delirium that fits right in with the first couple albums, "Indoor Games" is another fractured blues in the "Cat Food" class about a dysfunctional marriage, "Happy Family" is great sarcastic commentary on the decline and fall of the Beatles, even more twisted. I like this much better than Islands, or the "Incline to 1984" band. -------------------------------------------------- From: daves at ex dot heurikon dot com (Dave Scidmore) Newsgroups: rec.music.misc Subject: McDonald & Giles Date: 3 Aug 91 06:53:07 GMT Reply-To: daves at ex dot heurikon dot com (Dave Scidmore) Organization: Heurikon Corporation, Madison, WI kalang at cbnewsk dot att dot com (kenneth.lang) writes: >I've seen Japanese imports of "The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles & Fripp" >and the Giles & Giles album with a man and woman walking on the cover. What ever happened to McDonald and Giles, I used to listen to my brothers promotional copy of the album they made following leaving KC, but I have never seen another copy. As I remember (it was a long time ago) it was not a bad album, but I'm not sure if it ever made it into the stores. -- Dave Scidmore, Heurikon Corp. dave dot scidmore at heurikon dot com -------------------------------------------------- From: Phong Co Organization: dada Indugu Inc. Reply-To: Phong Co To: King Crimson Subject: Articles, USA Hi, I've just joined this list, and wanted to know some things (don't we all!). Malcolm Humes writes: => => Also, recently on the Net News I saw someone with a sig that had a quote => from Fripp dated within the last month or so, which I would paraphrase or => recall as saying "King Crimson never has been past tense" or something to => that effect which suggested that Fripp doesn't consider Crimson dead yet. => The actual quote was "There is nothing former about King Crimson", although I remember hearing about it six months ago. In any case, it is a very good omen, but still mucho ambiguous. => RE: BOOTLEGS & LIVE TAPES => On other another Fripp topic: I have the text of the infamous Downbeat => article by Fripp on bootlegging that someone had recently posted on the Net => in the rec.music.gdead area. If anyone wants me to post it to the Mailing => list, just ask. It is long, and quite interesting if you've never read it. => It probably belongs as a response to a Fripp FAQ: Why is Fripp so uptight => about bootlegs and live recordings? => I'd love to see this "infamous" article, having heard of it many many times. Please post or email. => -Malcolm (malcolm at wrs dot com) => => I've got all the "standard" King Crimson releases except _Islands_. Of the nine that I do have, my favorites are _Red_, _Discipline_, and _Larks' Tongues' ..._, while I don't much listen to _In the Wake of Poseidon_ or _Lizard_. Given that _Islands_ is in the same period as the latter, is it similar stylistically? I'll probably get it regardless, just want to know what I'm in for :-) There was an ad for the two video tapes (_The Noise_ and _Three of a Perfect Pair_) in the liner notes of my LOCG Live! CD. However, I got it second hand, and six years later. Does any one have these tapes? What about the live _USA_? I have never seen this, but then I live in Canada. Reviews of these elusive works (and any other pertinent news) would be appreciated. That's all for now. Bye folks! Phong. -- ========================================================================= Phong T. Co | chryses at xurilka dot UUCP | Battleships confide in me and dada Indugu Inc. | tell me where you are Montreal, CANADA | -- Yes