E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 293 Thursday, 25 July 1996 Today's Topics: Apology To Female Fans of Crimson A prophetic blast from the collective past Bungalow Bill Re: 90s Mellotrons bootlegs, early releases, all in ** places ThrakAttack=Infrared Roses=ARC Fripp's Humor Pre-Greek banquet, 7/26 21st CSM single at Alta Mira a few things A few mellowtron sightings UK Releases 21st Century Single Online Tickets for Asbury Park Damage / Composer vs. Player Quaking to THRaKaTTaK how to get your friend to like KC Crimson is life Two grovels and an invitation re: The Roches "Keep on Doin" Re: The Double Trio 21 CSM CD single supplier - US Discographies* please help mellotrons ang Dream Gerrard Mojo top 100 guitarists feature Double trio C.D. & 21st CSM Lament Tab A definition... girlfriends, Mellotron Re: Elephant Talk Digest #292 THRaKaTTaK, mellotrons, and you Re: ONE TICKET TO THE GREEK AMP IN BERKELEY, CA >>AT COST The last word (please) on Sartori in Tangier 21st CSM single available on-line other users of the beastie mellotron on nights in white satin Yes facts KC Live 1995 *is* going to be on laserdisc War, Keep on doing and RFSQ on Radio Re: Ring Modulators, Mellotrons ... THRaKaTTaK (my $.02) Thrakattack Criticism; Phish Frame by Frame Elevenses Double Trio at the Olympics KC LA tix Matte Kudasai Massachusetts H.O.A.R.D. Tickets available! KC on iRock! Mellotron, Yes and Tangerine Dream ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Clark Mike Subject: Apology To Female Fans of Crimson Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:17:04 -0400 I know you've all had enough of my blundering numbskullery in this space already, so I'll keep this short. Just wanted to say that I am tremendously sorry for my offensive remarks concerning (lack of) female fans of Crimson back in #290. It was not my intent at all; my post was intended for a quick laugh and then to be forgotten. A special thanks (and special apologies) to both Lisa W. and Joyce A. for their thoughtful responses which managed to make me both laugh and feel like a bit of a shithead at the same time. There are obviously many loyal and well-informed female fans of Crimson. I'll mind my p's and q's on this page from now on! Thanks also to the folks who managed to read through my insensitive remarks and responded with thoughts and suggestions (there were quite a few of you). See you at Merriweather! and please, no foreign objects thrown in the direction of Row L thank you. Take care all of you ETers Mike Clark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:12:01 -0400 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: A prophetic blast from the collective past Hi all I was rumaging thtrough the ET archives the other day and came across this posting in Discipline #50 (August 26, 1992) by Malcolm Humes(malcolm at wrs dot com): OhMiGod! has Fripp followed through on his threat to do a disc of only various live versions of 21st Century Schizoid Man? I thought he was just joking. I can see it now: one disc of 21st Century Schizoid Man, one of Cat Food, one of Easy Money, one of Lark's Tongue[sic]... If Malcolm would get in touch will me, we can discuss the winners of Super Bowl XXXI, XXXII, XXXIII, XXXIV....8^) BTW, I got my copy of Schizoid Man on July 5th at Tower in NYC for $9.99. It has "Made in England" stickers on it, so it was an import (duh!). Three days later, they were all marked $7.99. 8^( CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every Monday at 8PM and midnight, EDT. --Lucien LaCroix ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:23:13 -0700 From: Gary Viggers Subject: Bungalow Bill kjh857 at lulu dot acns dot nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) writes: "So there you have it. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Spanish-guitar bit at the beginning of the Beatles' "Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill" is _also_ a mellotron, that the lick was actually from a demo tape that came with the mellotron (played in this case on a single key)." Actually, according to Chris Thomas, the mellotron player on TCSoBB, "...I played a mandolin-type mellotron bit in the verses and the trombone-type bit in the choruses." Sorry to disappoint, but the Spanish-guitar bit is just a ... guitar [nylon string classical AKA a Spanish-guitar] Gary The Abe Lincoln Story TheALS at aol dot com viggers at westworld dot com http://www.westworld.com/~viggers/the_als.html "Dance Party" on Flipside Records now available on line on CD Now (http://cdnow.com) and from the ALS via our website! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: 90s Mellotrons Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 22:06:52 -0000 From: "David G. Shaw" Dennis Montgomery posted, in "Mellotrons in the 90's": > 1). the Red Hot Chili Peppers on "BloodSugarSexMagic" ("Breaking the > Girl" and the coda to "Sir Psycho Sexy"); > 2). Soundgarden on "Superunknown" ("Mailman", to chilling effect); Those two instances were not uses of the Mellotron by two different bands, but rather use of the 'tron by the same producer, Michael Beinhorn. He also used it on Soul Asylum's "Grave Dancers Union," on the tune "New World." I finally got the chance to play a vintage Mellotron a few years ago at Noise New Jersey, Kramer's home studio. It is a VERY persnickety instrument. I can't imagine attempting to maintain one on the road. I also remember another manufacturer of taped sample keyboards, Chamberlain, who claimed to have improved upon the Mellotron design. Anyone else know anything bout them? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:06:07 +0800 (CST) From: 940701074 Subject: bootlegs, early releases, all in ** places I'm a little confused. I've been living in Taiwan for the past two years and I can safely say that the music scene out here is of lower standards than that of North Dakota (trust me, I play in a cover band for a hotel out here). The average acts that come to Taiwan are Air Supply, Kenny G, Peter Cetera, Michael Jackson, The Cranberries, oh and of course Mr. Big. Despite all this, why does Tower Records in Taiwan continue to put out B'Boom or ThrackAttack or even Thrack and Vroom before they come out in the states? I am only basing this observation on the fact that I hear that a new Crimson album is due out and I therefore go into the store every week or so to check under "K" and see if progress is made. Then, "voila" an album appears, I buy it, and I log on to ET and a zillion fans are saying "I can't wait till such and such is released....." Are there any enlightened fans out there who know of the reason for such marketing? If Crimson were to "push" these albums out in ** places, why not perform there? It couldn't be as bad as Spinal Tap at a Naval base. I think that as far as East and South East Asia goes, Crimson should have a serious thought at Bangkok, Manila, Saigon, and Jakarta, as well as Hong Kong, and Taipei, although the latter of the two are sure to lose loads of money (not because of lack of interest so much as the cost of things is ridiculous) Flying back to Los Angeles (7/26) to catch the 7/27 show with 10 other locals and then flying back the day after. Burning over $2,000 U.S. and that's not even counting if we get delayed by a typhoon. That's dedication for you! later, tim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: leslabb at prolog dot net Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 15:51:14 -0500 Subject: ThrakAttack=Infrared Roses=ARC In ET 292 Chris Berg compared The Gratefull Deads Infrared Roses to Crimsons ThrackAttack. CB>> Anyway, listening to Thrakattack brought to mind that thread comparing CB>> King Crimson to the Grateful Dead. The Dead put out an album in '91 or CB>> '92 called Infrared Roses. It's a cool collection of Drum/Space CB>> segments of Dead shows over the course of maybe six months. It's nearly CB>> identical in form and concept to Thrakattack (or, considering the Anyone remember the Live CD Neil Young released in 1990 called Weld. There was a limited edition 3 CD set that included the 2cd Weld with a single CD called ARC. Arc was a long continued stream of guitar noise, effects, bass and drums. Neil Young strung together jams from different parts of his concerts. In some places the CD appears to have a coherent jam started just to melt into obscure territories. It is a must listen for any fan of ThrakAttack. Les ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:27:42 GMT Subject: Fripp's Humor From: lordabay at nyc dot pipeline dot com (michaeldamianjeter) Hi, everyone. I just wanted to mention something that may not occur to many of us...I have recently had the opportunity to re-read Robert's notes to the Thrak program and to the Great Deciever collection. The man has an incredible sense of humor. An example from the Great Deciever: "EG Management supplied EG Records with product from artists that EG Management handled....Were any dispute between EG artist and EG Record company to arise the artistwould have had to approach the owners of the record company for money to sue them. This is technically called `conflict of interest.'" (Great Deciver Booklet, Fripp, 6) -- michael damian jeter Dept. of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purple Heart Chapman Stick#1193 Whatever you do, A teacher works harder than you do.-- George Clinton, Central Park, NYC, July 4, 1996 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:53:22 -0700 From: Barry Polley Subject: Pre-Greek banquet, 7/26 If you're not going to the Greek show this Friday, please IGNORE this post. If you are, and would like to partake of a Chinese banquet, please drop me a note (barryp at well dot com). I rarely go to Berkeley, but there are many fantastic, reasonably priced restaurants there. If we get a dozen or more folks together, it may be possible to arrange an over-the-top Mandarin banquet before the show. I can also point you to other restaurants (privately) if you'd like. On another note: the paper today said vernon Reid is not the opener any longer... anyone have info on the opening act? >>b ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 15:35:23 -0400 (EDT) From: whitmd at email dot uc dot edu (Mark D. White) Subject: 21st CSM single at Alta Mira ETers: The 21st CSM single is available at Alta Mira: http://members.aol.com/amcyber1/AM.htm or email: AMCYBER1 at aol dot com Tell 'em I sent you! Mark D. White Cincinnati, OH ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 96 12:01:47 EDT From: Mike Stack Subject: a few things Hi there. I've been in lurker mode for a few weeks now, and finally decided it was time to post.. first 'cause there's been a few things I want to comment on, and second, 'cause I need a favor. Anyways, I'm a fairly young KC fan, wasn't old enough to've heard their music last time they were together, much less understand it, so as a result, I'm trying to catch them as many times as I can in this incarnation. Saw then once already down in New Haven, CT (killer show, and nice and close too..), and I've got two HORDE dates that I'm catching them on, plus a trip down to Asbury Park that we're taking. There's just one problem. I have NO IDEA how to get there as of now :), so if there's someone around who could help me out, I'll be coming down I-95 from Connecticut. Any help would be greatly appreciated, just mail me (mts95004 at uconnvm dot uconn dot edu) if you could help. Anyway, that was just a bit of a shameless plea for help, for more relevent stuff-- (1) _Thrakattack_, has it seen domestic release yet? My local progressive rock shop (we actually have one with a prog section, I swear, I want to cry. :) owner keeps saying it hasn't come out domestically, but I've heard people here say it has, so if this could be clarified for me. (2) Schizoid Man single, another release that's starting much conversation. I love it, great stuff in the live versions, especially the _Earthbound_ one. Now hopefully Fripp'll remaster the whole album and throw it out to us. Of course, I still want that '80s Live boxed set we're supposed to be getting. :) (3) There's been some talk about "matte kudasai", and what it means. If I may just intercede, having took a year of Japanese in high school, I naturally checked up on this. :) Anyway, "matte" is a form of the verb "mattu". Now "mattu" means 'to wait', while "matte" is the present tense form for speaking to someone, so "matte" would mean 'you wait'. The addition of "kudasai" puts it in a polite form, and it's placement after into a question (well, kind of..), meaning it becomes literally 'would you please wait?'. HOWEVER, "matte kudasai" as a phrase means 'please wait for me', with the 'for me' being understood as part of the 'please' clause since it's not a question. Now that you know too much about the origin of the song title, I'm going to go now. :) mike "back to square one, another empire backfire" -killing joke [Perhaps we can put the "What does Matte Kudasai" thread to rest now? At least for another 50 digests? - Dan] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman Subject: A few mellowtron sightings Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 20:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Two more mellotron-using bands: Heart Smashing Pumpkins Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at leland dot stanford dot edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: hawker at thenet dot co dot uk (gerry menzies) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 11:06:14 Subject: UK Releases Hi all, Okay this is my first ever posting to Elephant Talk so please forgive me if this topic has been well used and abused. In Elephant Talk issue#292 there was a list of UK releases for people to bid for, well not being that well in the "know" I didn't realise that they would be so different. I know we do get the odd USA import of many bands here, seem mostly compilation albums. What I am trying to say is if you really want a UK version of an album as it comes out, there is a local shop to me that do sell records all over the world. So if you lot really want UK versions of crimson stuff I could find the complete address of the shop for you. I don't know if ordering from them would be cheaper than getting your local shop to order imports for you, but the offer is there. This is an indipendant shop, but is always in the paper regarding the service it provides. One last thing, the only thing I can not get hold of over here, even in second hand shops is a copy of USA. I can't afford massive lots of UKPs for a copy, is there any kind soul got a spare tape copy of it? I would pay al lthe shipping costs and refund the cost of the USA tape version. if anyone can help could you email me direct. Thanks for being patient with my first ever posting, only been getting the issues for a couple weeks. Thanks again, Gerry E-MAIL Hawker at thenet dot co dot uk WWW.thenet.co.uk/~hawker ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: 21st Century Single Online Date: Sat, 20 Jul 96 18:52:44 -0000 From: WOTAN >http://www.cduniverse.com > >I'm not endorsing or advertising, >(heck, it hasn't even arrived yet, but I have recieved e-mail >confirmation that it has been shipped) just stating a fact. >As of last week, it was the only on-line CD store I'd found that >listed it as in stock. CdNow also has it listed. www.cdnow.com Thier listing of Crimso and other boots/imports has shrunk to nill unfortuneately. - Sez **************** Visit General Music 101 +===+ o +===+ at | | /|\ | | http://www.concentric.net/~selzler/ |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| |___| / \ |___| - The Road Goes on Forever - **************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: theslammer at worldnet dot att dot net Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 01:21:00 GMT Subject: Tickets for Asbury Park Somehow I got the impression that Asbury Park was a Horde date...not an exclusive Crimson date. I'd love to get tickets. Please respond by E-mail. Thanks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 15:48:55 -0500 From: Chris Mitchell Subject: Damage / Composer vs. Player Greetings to all. I was at a record/CD show today here in Knoxville, held at the lavish Days Inn. Found two new copies of Sylvian/Fripp's *Damage* disc, going for 35 bucks each. I didn't have that kind of cash to drop, but I wanted to post and warn Damage-seekers to keep their eyes open for any nearby record shows. I found these copies on a table marked Dixon Music, who apparently travel to various places in the Eastern U.S. So, with any luck, whoever is still looking for that album might find it, although the price ain't what it used to be. A response to JP Lewis' suggestion that Fripp is a better Composer while Hendrix was more of a Player: I'll agree to a point. Hendrix is not my bag of bananas, but he was very much a respectable guitar Player. And Fripp, indeed, has come up with his own, very original avenues of playing music. But I think this points more towards Fripp's playing style than any compositional legacy. Composing generally involves employing certain techniques, i.e., chordal knowledge, physical ability, etc. In Fripp's case, the Discipline-era gamelan stemmed from his penchant for cross-picking. Frippertronics grew out of those watershed sessions with Eno. In other words, the compositions seem to have grown out of the ability to play and conceive those compositions. Similarly, I guess, you could look to Thelonious Monk, whose compositions even a novice listener can nail as Monk tunes. But it was Monk's playing style that largely informed the genesis of those tunes. It's a bit of the chicken and egg question: which comes first, the playing or the composing? Finally - although I'm not one to necessarily agree with the Beatles-obsessed Eric Tamm, his book on Fripp paints RF as more of a Player than Composer. Hmmm. Take care, crimheads Chris M. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:36:53 -0400 From: BUEL_CHANDLER at mech dot disa dot mil (BUEL CHANDLER) Subject: Quaking to THRaKaTTaK The latest doom type game, shareware version QUAKE, from ID software will play any music CD inserted into your CD drive. Someone on the list (sorry, forgot who) mentioned what a great soundtrack album THRaKaTTaK would make. I know it scared the sh*t out of me while I was playing Quake with THRaKaTTaK in the player. Every time you go to a new level, it randomly plays another track. If you have a nice sound setup, it can be quite invigorating with the lights down low. ID software apparently contracted with T. Reznor and/or nine inch nails to do the soundtrack of the registered version, but it would have to be truly scary to outdo the King on this one. Looks like ID missed their chance on this one. I just hope the registered version allows one to play the CD of their choice, as I have made mine. Ciao, BEC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:40:28 -0700 From: Karen Baumgart Subject: how to get your friend to like KC Hi there, I don't think this subject should be a gender thing, but the scales do seem to be a little bit tipped one way. So at a risk, this is my suggestion on how to get your girlfriend (this also applies to girls trying to get their boyfriends) to like KC. This may be quite a task (especially if the friend likes Morrisette) in a very little time. You will be battling a couple of things; crazy guitars, drum hitting off the beat, and a lot of odd time, so try this: Make a tape of all the easier to listen to songs. some suggestions: Walkig On Air, Matte Kudasia, One Time, the Garden song on Thrak, and of course Heartbeat (I think any girl will fall for Adrian when he and his guitar are crying (I did)). Next, maybe some easier instrumentals like, Sheltering Sky, Discipline, Talking Drum (but cut it off before LTIA). Then gently move up to something a little harder but still accessible: I'm a Dinosaur, ToaPP, Sleepless, People, maybe Thela. That should be enough for one tape. Don't overwelm anybody by force. Also, if your friend leans a little bit to the jazz, try a little Earthworks so that she may choose an aliance with one of the band members (namely the terrific drummer). Does she listen to any P. Gabriel (possibly a way to get her to like Mr levin-btw you should get World Diary)? A little Bears. Or maybe try UK-UK (may be a way to introduce some odd time). For an easier approach to odd time, you might try some Dave Brubeck - Take Five (old, but great). A very basic suggestion, start by not turning up the volume to normal levels (cranked), but let your friend control the volume. Don't turn on any of the following (let these be discovered at the show); Thrak, LTIA part 11, Vrooom, Indiscipline, Nuerotica. Soon, you will catch your friend in the shower with KC cranked and belting out Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream with Adrian. By the way, we just received our copy of THRaKaTTaCK....OH YEAH!!!! (we got ours from Possible Productions) and Jim, my husband, gets a mention here...he cranked the soundscape at the beginning and was knocked out his socks when the rest of the band hit it. We also ordered stickers, has anybody else? Did you notice that the Discipline sticker is not the same as the Discipline record cover? Well it's not. See you at the show, -spike "when the spirit hits you, you got to move" -Lionel Hampton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 96 03:09:22 UT From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: Crimson is life 1. I can't get "Easy Money" out of my head. (It's been five days). 2. Jimi is dead. Fripp is alive 3. Aug. 25th, Merriweather, 4th row center. (will it ever arrive?) 4. I only have one Fripp solo album (Network?). Can someone suggest one or two of the better ones that I should buy? (ok to e-mail direct). 5. I live for King Crimson Dan Wasser Gaithersburg, Maryland USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:50:28 -0400 Subject: Two grovels and an invitation Two grovels: 1. Where are the tapes from the European leg of the tour? I haven't seen word one about them either here in ET or on certain other message boards that I check. If anyone has anything, contact me by private e-mail please. I have tradeables. 2. I will be attending the HORDE Festival when it reaches Pittsburgh on August 13th. I am aware through Trey's posting that KC will be going on early and playing a short set. As the tour starts, I hope others will post information concerning the starting time of KC's set. I am planning to get there early if I have to but would be bummed in a major way if I missed the boys and would be bummed in a minor way if I have to sit through several bands of no importance to me before the double trio hits the stage. Will prior HORDE-goers post starting time info? Thanks. If other ETers are interested in linking up at the Festival, either before or after KC, for some beers and some discussion, let me know. Are you still out there Neal and Carl? Arnie Schulberg ASchulberg at aol dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:32:01 +1000 (EST) From: Eric Best Subject: re: The Roches "Keep on Doin" Greetings! In #292 Jase warned Crimson fans that they may not enjoy The Roches' album. While this is no doubt true for some, I would like to register my vote that I, as a long time Crimson/Fripp fan, enjoy "Keep on Doing" and still, after many years, on occaision, play it. It contains one of my favorite Fripp solos [on Losing True]. Fripp's guitar *sings*! One of the things I find disatisfying with much of the KC material is, INMHO, the paucity of emotional content. Too much air and fire and not enough earth and water. So when Fripp collaborates with an emotional song writer such as Margaret Roche, a very potent magic is invoked. Fripp is one of the few musicians whose music touches me ecstaticly, and the aforementioned song is one of those moments. Are there any others who feel that way about this track? Are there other pieces that ETers are likewise touched by? Recently I wrote to Possible Productions about the possibility of a KC tour of Australia and New Zealand. We have never had the pleasure of their company and I, for one, am saddened by the prospect of never seeing them. Are there other antipodeans out there in ET land who would like to see the best band in the world? Raise your hands! Off the point, one of my other favorite guitarists is fellow Englishman Richard Thompson. [Am I alone here?] He has a new album out "You? Me? Us?", which is very good. If you have not yet heard him, see him 'live' and be blown away! Yours, Eric Best. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:13:26 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: The Double Trio >From: whitmd at email dot uc dot edu (Mark D. White) >Subject: "The Double Trio" > >I must recommend the bootleg "The Double Trio" for anyone who may have been >a tad disappointed with "B'Boom". IMHO, it's a much more energetic, compact >recording, with pristine sound and slightly more appealing packaging. If you're REALLY lucky, you'll find the video version, which is pretty generically packaged as "King Crimson in Japan." You get this swell concert (actually patched together from the shows of Oct. 5 & 6, 1995) complete with visuals... really nice camera work that show the band truly WORKING. The video seems to have been taped from Japanese TV and is presumably the source of the video listed as "in preparation" by Possible Productions. It also includes the blistering "Thrak" that you just knew had to have been played between "Drum Solo" ("B'boom") and "Vroom." Get the legit version when it's released (I certainly plan to), but GET THIS. Steve Smith ssmith at kochint dot com Manager Publicity & Promotion, KOCH International L.P. 2 Tri-Harbor Court, Port Washington, NY 11050 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 19 Jul 96 16:19:00 EST From: "Gilbert Kirk" Subject: 21 CSM CD single supplier - US I think it was ET 291 wherein it was asked where one could purchase the 21st Century Schizoid Man CD single in the US. Possible Productions (PossProd at aol dot com) now lists it for $7.99 to which one must add $2.50 shipping and handling. Gilbert Kirk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: Neil_Jones at tvo dot org Subject: Discographies* please help Date: 19 Jul 1996 19:30:23 GMT Organization: TVOntario's Online System Hi all, As a new King Crimson/Robert Fripp fan and a new subscriber to ELEPHANT, I have a few questions. (1) How do I get the KC FAQ? I see it referred to often in ET. I don't have Internet access, other than email, and this FTP by email is a tricky, unreliable thing. Could someone forward it? (2) Someone out there must have Fripp/KC discographies, including contributions to other artists' work. I know, for example, that Fripp appears on Eno's ANOTHER GREEN WORLD, Bowie's SCARY MONSTERS, and two Iona discs. How about helping a new fan find some more great tunes from what is fast becoming his fave artists? (3) What is the extent of Fripp's contribution to Peter Gabriel's PETER GABRIEL album? I purchased the cassette version years ago, before they started including credits and liner notes with them. I know "Here Comes the Flood" appears on Fripp's EXPOSURE as well as on PETER GABRIEL. Anyone help me out here? Any responses welcomed. If I'm asking questions that have been asked a ka-jillion times before in this forum, please respond to me personally, so as not to annoy other ETers who are more in the know. Cheers and thanks in advance, Neil_Jones at tvo dot org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:27:27 +0300 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22J=F6rgen_Wollsten_aka._Erik_Pinulk=22?=" Subject: mellotrons ang Dream Gerrard My obsession at the moment, Garbage, use a lot of strange sounds. Listen to Milk, the final track of their album. The mellotron sounds very Crimsoid and could in fact be a sample from any of the first Crimson albums! I was also listening to my Steve Winwood 4 CD box the other week and to my surprise the superb song Dream Gerrard includes a long improvisation that sounds exactly like something from Starless and ...... BTW, has anyone got a scanned picture of young frizzy haired Robert sitting on a Norton with guitar in lap?? ___________________ J. Wollsten aka. Erik Pinulk Firma PINULK Vanha Kuninkaantie 41 06100 PORVOO FINLAND Home phone and fax : +358 (9)15 5248950 Cellular phone : +358 (9)49 840316 http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/pinulk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: grc at spoon dot easynet dot co dot uk Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:44:23 +0100 Subject: Mojo top 100 guitarists feature Someone asked what were the top 100 guitarists as featured in Mojo last month. Here they are - where guitarists named have been sidemen, I've added bands/leaders. 100 Ritchie Blackmore 99 Marv Taplin (Smokey Robinson) 98 John Fahey 97 John Squire (Echo & the Bunnymen) 96 Jonny Greenwood (Radiohead) 95 Mick Green (Johnny Kidd & Pirates) 94 John Cipollina 93 Phil Manzanera (Roxy Music) 92 Bonnie Raitt 91 Marc Ribot (Tom Waits) 90 Tony Iommi 89 John McGeogh (Siouxsie & Banshees) 88 Ernie Isley 87 Rory Gallagher 86 James Williamson (Iggy & Stooges) 85 Carl Perkins 84 John McLaughlin 83 Charley Patton 82 Bernard Butler (Suede) 81 Mark Knopfler 80 Angus Young 79 Zoot Horn Rollo (Capt Beefheart) 78 Mike Bloomfield 77 Joni Mitchell 76 Peter Tosh (Wailers) 75 Billy Gibbons 74 Wes Montgomery 73 Merle Travis 72 Carlos Santana 71 Albert King 70 Eddie Hazel (Funkadelic) 69 Leo Kottke 68 King Sunny Ade 67 Lou Reed 66 Cliff Gallup (Gene Vincent) 65 Dick Dale 64 Ike Turner 63 Eddie Taylor (Jimmy Reed) 62 Les Paul 61 Wayne Kramer (MC5) 60 Kurt Cobain 59 Steve Jones 58 Clarence White (The Byrds) 57 Nile Rogers (Chic) 56 Leo Nocentelli (The Meters) 55 Bob Mould (Husker Du) 54 Syd Barrett 53 Mick Ronson 52 Dave Gilmour 51 Robert Fripp <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 50 Ron Asheton (The Stooges) 49 Lowell George 48 Bo Diddley 47 Eldon Shamblin (Bob Wills & his Texas Playboys) 46 Scotty Moore 45 Robert Lockwood 44 Hank Marvin 43 Chet Atkins 42 Bert Jansch 41 Robbie Robertson 40 Link Wray 39 Duane Allman 38 Roger McGuinn 37 Eddie Cochran 36 Sister Rosetta Tharpe 35 Jerry Garcia 34 Tom Verlaine 33 Prince 32 The Edge 31 Freddie King 30 Buddy Guy 29 J Mascis (Dinosaur Jr) 28 Frank Zappa 27 Elmore James 26 James Burton 25 Curtis Mayfield 24 Hubert Sumlin (Howlin' Wolf) 23 Johnny Marr (The Smiths) 22 Ry Cooder 21 Eddie Van Halen 20 Johnny Ramone 19 Guitar Slim 18 Charlie Christian 17 Robert Johnson 16 George Harrison 15 Pete Townshend 14 Stevie Ray Vaughan 13 Jeff Beck 12 Jimmy Noelen (James Brown) 11 BB King 10 Richard Thompson 9 Neil Young 8 T-Bone Walker 7 Jimmy Page 6 Eric Clapton 5 Chuck Berry 4 Keith Richards 3 Peter Green 2 Steve Cropper 1 Jimi Hendrix There's been a few 'interesting' responses to the mag, some along the lines of "How could you miss xxxxxxxxx out", but my favourite was - "I'd be interested to know what type and size was the hat you used to make the selections from" Don't bombard the mag with comments about their selections - they have declared all correspondence on the subject closed. Regards, Graham ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:56:30 PST Subject: Double trio C.D. & 21st CSM From: alstew at juno dot com (Al Stewart) Hello again, I want to thank the fellow who mentioned that the 21csm c.d. is available on-line as I was able to pick up a copy (1 week shipping) & can anyone tell me the exact 5 version's that are on it & the band lineup's & years? Also I recently purchased a c.d. entitled 'the double trio' which was recorded in Japan last year & it is very good & the sound quality is excellent so thank's to the guy who mentioned that here in issue #291, I think. The last thing is I'm in the market for a good quality live recording on c.d. of the 73-75 lineup (fripp,bruford,cross & whetton) any recommendations out there? Thanks, Al Stewart ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:31:06 -0700 From: Matthew Dawson Subject: Lament Tab Hi, I was wondering how many of the guitarists on the list had checked out the KC tabs at the OLGA nevada ftp site. for some reason I'm not able to look at or download "lament". I was curious if anyone else was or if anyone has any clues they might share with me concerning the chords/tab to the song. you may e-mail me privately. thanks in advance, matt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 22 Jul 1996 14:43:04 -0700 From: "T Salmon" Subject: A definition... ...definition...a word with a "d" this time: Mark(& to all who might find it of interest): I agree with your opinion of terry kroetsch f 's views. To the latest ET you wrote: >The only thing I don't like about B'Boom is their rendition of Matte Kudasai- too fast and very forced. Seeing as how Matte Kudasai is 'our song' (sniff), my wife was particularly disappointed. Oh well, we did get to see Adrian play it with the Psycodots on his last swing through Minneapolis and it was spectacular. And for the person who asked, I believe Matte Kudasai is Japanese for "my beloved" or equivalent. I have been TOTALLY caught up in RED from B'Boom...the CD is lodged most of the time in my car player! By way of clarrification, I would just mention that the meaning of Matte Kudasai is "Wait please." The way I have usually heard it in conversation is "Chotto matte kudasai," which literally means "Wait a little please." Just thought I'd let ya know. -- Tim. PS -- T minus 4 days & counting until the Greek in Berkeley! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: ckk at uchicago dot edu (Chris Koenigsberg ckk at pobox dot com) Subject: girlfriends, Mellotron Re: Elephant Talk Digest #292 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:31:01 -0500 Women and King Crimson: when I made my wife sit down and concentrate on listening to "Starless" off of "Red" a while ago, I kid you not, her only comment was "that's really so wimpy!" (I think she said it because she knew it would piss me off :-) I took her to see Fripp with the League of Crafty Guitarists back in 1988 or so and she totally hated it, couldn't wait to get out of there as soon as it ended. She was somewhat bored by the first of 2 KC double trio concerts in Chicago last year (I got smart and took a friend, instead of her, to the second concert :-) but even she had to admit that it was pretty powerfully OK :-) :-) She likes the Beatles, REM, and Bob Dylan, and a bit of other pop music, but mainly she's a classical music fan (especially Wagner operas). Being married to me she of course puts up with a lot of really really really totally weird audio material but she doesn't necessarily enjoy it all very much :-) now her point of view might be different than mine (but she won't waste time reading Internet mailing lists either so you'll never hear from her :-) Mellotron: if we ever get to release the proposed double CD "Falling Off Your Wall With Magic", of the long out of print 2 vinyl albums and several 45's (from 1980-1983) originally released by my old band "Carsickness" on our old label "TMI Products", (maybe by the end of this year it'll be out), you'll hear some very nice Mellotron, especially on "They Came Crawling" (the B-side of the "For You" single) and on a few songs, especially "Flowers of Fire", off the 2nd LP "Sharpen Up For Duty". For our Mellotron tracks back then (1981-1982), we used Linden Studio, an 8-track facility in Ambler Pa. which was co-owned by Bill Mauchly. Now Bill's a senior software engineer at Ensoniq (and his Dad invented the ENIAC computer, hi Bill forgive me for name-dropping :-) :-) The studio may have only had 8-tracks on its main tape deck but it had a very very good sweet sound and decent equipment all the way around. The Mellotron had a 3-way switch, which could select between any one of 3 different sounds while you were playing. You could stop and reload it, with a different tape cartridge; each cartridge had 3 available sounds (and of course for each of the sounds on the cartridge, there was a complete set of separate recordings of different pitches, under each note up and down the keyboard). The standard Mellotron cartridge which came by default when you bought one had, if I remember correctly, violins, or celli, or flutes, as its 3 sound choices. At Linden they also had the cartridge with voices (e.g. the great voices on Genesis's "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight"), plus they had also recorded a cartridge of their own, with various random sounds in each position under each key. We did some long never-released psychedelic space jam sessions using the Mellotron during some free time at the studio while the equipment was being set up etc., I think they were only recorded on cassette. If you held a key down, the individual tape under that key, with one sound, would play till its end, I forget if it was 3 or 5 seconds, then there would be an audible click and pause till it rewound and played again (or maybe it was a loop like old 8-track cartridges, I forget, anyway there was definitely an audible click and then a pause). So you really couldn't play a single note any longer than this limit (3 or 5 seconds). Nowadays wavetable sample playback devices have "loop points" noted in the material, and once the 1st loop point is reached, the sound will loop between that 1st point and the next, the 2nd loop point, infinitely as long as you hold down a key or until a MIDI "note off" is received for that key. Editing a sample file, placing the loop points so the looping sounds OK without noticeable glitches, is an important skill these days. Chris Koenigsberg mailto: ckk at uchicago dot edu (permanent mailto:ckk at pobox dot com) permanent *moving to ckk at scr dot siemens dot com, Siemens Corporate Research, Princeton NJ, in August 1996 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: KB305 at aol dot com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:17:28 -0400 Subject: THRaKaTTaK, mellotrons, and you all: Just got my THRaKaTTaK (Homer's, Omaha-- distribution is a problem for independent record labels, isn't it!). My 2: THIS is the Crimson I've been waiting for. Each man's music is clearly indentifiable. While they lack the single-mindedness of 73-74, they compensate for it by way of explorational courage. This Crimson does not 'jam'- it swims between your legs. Later, when Independence Day comes out on VHS, I say we dub the buildings-exploding scenes together with this music under it. Or John Zorn, whatever. My biggest regret is that this is not a 4-CD set. But then again, I am under a doctor's care, so... Someone's (someone at information dot parking dot ramp) comment about similarities between TA and the Dead's Infrared Roses is not mistaken. It would be a wonderful and strange thing indeed if KC slowly replaced the Dead in the cultural pantheon of pagan devotion. But then, they lack that American-outlaw quality in their 'songs'. 'Neil and Jack and Me' does not equal 'Friend Of The Devil', for example. Mellotrons: well, when I was a boy (harrumph!) they were EVERYWHERE, at least in my record collection, until I discovered Weather Report and headed for 52nd Street. Actually, they still are, but now, they are ALTERNATIVE POP. The big brother to the Mellotron was called the Chamberlain; Bowie used it in the Low/Heores/Lodger era, I believe, and today producer Mitchell Froom carts his to the many sessions he produces, inclusing those starring Elvis, the former Crowded House, and Los Lobos. They can't make samplers that are as idiosyncratic (read: funky, temperamental, and out-of-tune) as this. I say the next generation of Mellotrons should have little CDs in it instead of little tapes-- that way, they could skip p p p p p inininininininstead of warrrrrrble. Perhaps Adrian is developing such a patch. It might replace his Vince Guaraldi Shoots Up With Bartok piano patch. Comes with its own skull-and-crossbones right on the label. Crimson in North Dakota? I see Fargo (the movie). Think about it: Adrian and Trey in that dealer-mobile snuffing a car full of attorneys. Discuss. Seriously, and with a big cigar in my mouth, K ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: TBHARGIS at aol dot com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:38:25 -0400 Subject: Re: ONE TICKET TO THE GREEK AMP IN BERKELEY, CA >>AT COST THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS! I HAVE ONE EXTRA TICKET TO THE KING CRIMSON SHOW THIS COMMING FRIDAY 7/26/96 THIS IS A GOOD SEAT - (RESERVED SECTION JUST ABOVE THE PIT). MY CRIMSON BUDDY IN ARIZONA CAN'T MAKE IT... SO IF ANYONE NEEDS A TICKET, E-MAIL ME. TBHARGIS@AOL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Bailey, Jim" Subject: The last word (please) on Sartori in Tangier Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:43:00 -0400 Perhaps it was written after a bad experience Mr. Fripp had with a tailor in Morocco? :^) ;~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 21st CSM single available on-line Hello ET readers, As I mentioned that I'd post again when (and if) the 21st CSM single arrived from "http://www.cduniverse.com", here it is. It arrived 10 days after the e-mail confirmation that the order had been shipped. I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again. The single? I'm very happy to have the "Earthbound" version on CD, even though I've heard bootlegs that sound better. I'd -still- like to have the whole thing on CD. (Are you reading this, guys? BTW, thanks for the second set of Funk Fingers, Tony!) The live version from the Fillmore, '69 bodes -really- well for the "Epitaph: Live in '69" release mentioned on the cover. It's slated for late this year. I love this one! Mel Collins turns in a fine solo. I haven't done the comparison to see if it's EJ or JM on the version from "USA II" (due next spring, according to the cover) but I'm hoping it's EJ. I enjoyed hearing his take on the KC material. A hint of what might have been, had RF joined UK. Bottom line, I'm glad I spent the $. You might be, too. J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca Co-FAQ guy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:17:13 -0800 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: other users of the beastie >Bands who have used the mellotron in the 90's (aside from KC, and these >are just the bands that I know of) include [...] There is also Mellotron on Julian Cope's 1995 album "20 Mothers" James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:24:41 +0100 (BST) From: "Gerard Coughlan (MBS in MIS)" Subject: mellotron on nights in white satin Organization: University College Dublin Hello ETers, I'm sending mail in relation to ET of 19th July concerning mellotron on the moody blues track nights in white satin. The song was, in fact recorded with both a melloron an orchestra. The album which it is from, "days of future passed" 1967, was recorded with the London concert (?) orchestra under conductor Peter Knight. The orchestra played in between the songs. The songs themselves, are drenched in mellotron. Nights in white satin itself mainly contains mellotron with some overdubbed orchestra near the end of the song. The single version of the song is without any orchestra. Finally, other notable mellotron appearances which I don't think were mentioned are: Rolling Stones: 2,000 light years away from home (1967) from "their satanic majesties request" Led Zeppelin: Stairway to Heaven, the Rain Song, Kashmir (definitive!!!) Bowie: Some on "Space Oddity album" I think. I'm not sure. Regards, Gerard Coughlan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:29:36 +0100 (BST) From: "Gerard Coughlan (MBS in MIS)" Subject: Yes facts Organization: University College Dublin Hello, I'm bust these days, this is my second message today to the list. This time it concerns a quote in ET 292 about YES: > For the albums "Going for the One" and >"Tormato", Wakeman replaced his mellotron with a birotron >which used an 8-track tape system yet the sounds are >pretty much the same. Now, I'm no huge YES fan, but didn't Rick Wakeman leave the group after Tales of Topogr.......something or other in 1974/75. I may be wrong but I think I'm sure. Regards, Gerard Coughlan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:41:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mike St. Clair" Subject: KC Live 1995 *is* going to be on laserdisc For those who are interested, one of the import laserdisc retailers who promotes themselves on USENET has KC - Live 1995 in their pre-order section for later this summer. So, while I wouldn't hold my breath for a domestic LD release, there will be an import (and hey, import LDs are pretty easy to obtain). This particular vendor was selling it for $80, but I imagine Possible Productions will probably have a better price. Oh yeah, and it's 130 minutes long! Yes! ***Mike St. Clair***mstclair at iglou dot com***irc:SaintMick*** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:08:48 +0000 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering Laboratory Subject: War, Keep on doing and RFSQ on Radio Dear readers Someone warned against buying the album "Keep on doing" with the Roches. It is true that they don=B4t sound at all like Crimson, they do have their own special sound. After one gets used to their sound and very harmonical singing but not very academic, you will love their style. It=B4s a promise. On this particula album there is one track were Fripp soloes beutifully over their song. I belive it is track number two and should be listed as one of Fripps most beutiful solo. It is not very long and complex but enhances a godd song very much. "RECOMMENDED" their first album, "The Roches"also features at least two Fripp solos and production as well. It is even better than "Kepp on doing" and is a MUST. Yesterday I heard "bicycling to Afghanistan" with the RFSQ band on the Icelandic state Radio. I could not believe my ears. The reason was that a guitarist was being interviewd and this happened to be on his CD player. I bought a bootleg of KC named "Talk to the wind" in el' Corte de Ingles in Alicante Spain. It is a bad sounding recording from one of their first appearances Live. Interesting track is WAR where one can hear Fripp playing jazz like guitar. He is an hell of a Jazz player. The guitar playing here is historically interesting. He has never recorded this type of playing in my knowledge. Bye ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Gerd Weyhing" Organization: Rechenzentrum der Uni Mannheim Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:15:40 MET-1 Subject: Re: Ring Modulators, Mellotrons ... Hi, fellow Crimheads I think that, amongst groups that use mellotrons, MOTORPSYCHO from Norway should also be mentioned. It's definitely worth listening to the last two or three albums: "Blissard" (1996), Song: "S.T.G." , "Timothy's Monster" (1995), Song: "The Golden Core" Gerd =:-# ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: Otherroad at aol dot com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:42:52 -0400 Subject: THRaKaTTaK (my $.02) It's interesting reading the various views on THRaKaTTaK. I think that people will generally either love this album or hate it. I don't think there's any middle ground. In fact, I think people will be fighting over the merits of this album for years. My own relationship with the music of Fripp and King Crimson has been an odd one. To be sure, I loved Court of the Crimson King the first time I heard it, but I was unsure about what followed. But even what I was unsure about still intrigued me. Then came Lark's Tongue in Aspic and I thought, "What the hell is this?!?!?" At first I really coudn't stomach it, but there was some weird nagging quality about it as though Robert Fripp were tapping me on the shoulder saying very politely, "Are you sure you didn't miss something? Maybe you should try it again." And as irritating as it was, I couldn't help putting that album on again and again and again. And finally it just sunk in what an incredible album it was and literally became one of my favorites. Even if I put it on today I can still find new things in it. Then came Exposure and again I wondered, "What the Hell is this? Fripp gone punk?!?!?!" But old Fripp just kept tapping me on the shoulder, "Mayhap you missed something? Perhaps another listen." And damn if it didn't happen again. Fripp just kept presenting me with dangerous music, shaking up my sense of status quo and daring me to listen - to really listen. Then came League of Gentlemen and I knew for sure that Fripp was off his rocker. "What the hell is this?!?!?" I queried, "Fripp gone disco?!?!?" And that was just too much. Didn't he understand that one of the basic characteristics of the progressive fan base was that we couldn't dance?! But now if I put on Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx I just want to get up and pogo! Then, of course came Discipline. "What the hell is this?!?! King Crimson gone funk?!?!" God what a great album! Fripp just kept educating me and eventually I came to appreciate all his twists and turns no matter how off the wall or dangerous or ridiculous it seemed. I took to the League of Crafty Guitarists right off the bat. Summers and Fripp was wonderful. Sunday All Over the World an instant smash with me. Fripp and Sylvian - to die for! Vrooom and Thrak - oh yeah. But to tell the truth, as much as I love these albums, there was something missing. Fripp had always been way ahead of me before, but now it seemed like I'd caught up with him (with his guidance, of course) and there was something just a little bit sad about that. And then came THRaKaTTaK. When I put it on a brief bit of Thrak was the first thing I heard and I liked that well enough. But then came the rest and I found myself recoiling in horror. And finally that question came, "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS!!!!" I think you'll understand when the implications hit me and a silly ass grin crept across my face. Ol' Bobby and company did it to me again! Very likely THRaKaTTaK is going to be my most played disc this summer. Meanwhile at The Artist Shop in just a few days the soundbites for THRaKaTTaK blew all the other soundbites in the Shop out of the water. Of the four I put up, the favorite seems to be "This Night Wounds Time." Stop on by and check it out. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Thrakattack Criticism; Phish Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:59:00 -0400 After reading so many overwhelmingly positive posts about Thrakattack, I thought it would be worthwhile to provide a contrasting view. This, from a fan who loved the double trio's performances in Denver and Atlanta, and thoroughly enjoys Thrak and B'Boom (particularly the instrumental sections -- I'm not much of a Belew-as-singer/songwriter fan). On the whole, Thrakattack is good not great. I love the scattered moments when the band achieves its trademark complex intensity. There are also some quiet moments when, as they do/did on Providence and other mid-period material, the band intricately weaves what appear to be isolated musical threads into a comprehensive whole. Unlike many other listeners, however, during significant portions of the album, I think the band meanders aimlessly until someone picks up a musical thread and the others follow. Just to check myself, I've been listening to the improvs on the Great Deceiver (skipping over other tracks). Although on some levels, comparing the bands is like comparing apples and oranges, comparing their music (particularly the improvisational sections) is not. In terms of what is pleasing to the ear and what the band achieves, the current improvisational endeavors do not compare to those in the mid-70s. I am also curious to know whether others agree that Tony Levin is virtually inaudible on Thrakattack. I think someone noted this problem in a previous ET. Although the apples and oranges problem arises here, the same cannot be said for Whetton's thundering on the Great Deceiver. What a sound he had! On an unrelated note, does anyone else hear isolated KC influences in Phish's music? I am mainly referring to occasional guitar riffs by Trey Anastasios that, to me, are extremely Fripp-esque. The drummer also often plays in a jazz/rock style similar to the one Bruford has mastered. I've had most of Phish's albums for years, I never noticed a connection until I saw Phish live for the first time last Fall and again at the New Orleans Jazz Fest this Spring. On several occasions, I turned to a friend (who knows very little about KC) and commented that Trey was playing in Fripp's precise, controlled-yet-out-of-control style. For examples of this phenomenon, listen to "Divided Sky" or "David Bowie," both on Junta. Please understand that I'm not saying these songs, in their entireties, sound like Crimson. I'm merely referring to certain portions of these and other tunes. Phish often combines many different forms/styles into one song, and the vast majority of their music sounds nothing like Crimson. I think Phish may have been discussed on ET before, so I won't babble too much about them (particularly the difference between seeing them live v. listening to studio tracks; and the risk that if one hears the "wrong" songs or takes a look at many of the band's fans, Phish will be SADLY and MISTAKENLY labelled a Dead-alike band). Mike Heilbronner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Padi Ferenc Subject: Frame by Frame Can anybody tell me where I can order the 4-CD sets "Frame by Frame" and "The Great Deceiver" in England? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:03:58 -0500 From: Chris Mitchell Subject: Elevenses I was recently working on some ThrakAttak reviews and came upon a tricky bit of listening. At 1:38 into "ThrakAttak part 2," Bill introduces a very fast snare pattern and Pat joins him. The count seems to go like this: 8 beats -rest- 7 beats -rest- ...and so on down to 1 beat -rest- and then it repeats. If my counting and math are correct, the total number of beats and rests is 44. Which I assume we can reduce to 11, as in 11/8. Now, a question: is this the "Elevenses" that someone mentioned seeing on a setlist? It sounds familiar, perhaps it was the opening drum duet at the show I saw. Anyway, I keep tapping on the desk: 8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. And no, I don't have too much time on my hands, all this trivial work is done late at night with headphones and oreos. Chris M. Univ. of Tenn. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:25:27 -0400 From: Steve Pratt <106161 dot 1726 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Double Trio at the Olympics To all you sports fans ! Sorry about such an irrelevant message but : Was it just me, or did anyone else see the double trio symbol formed as part of the opening ceremony for the Olympic Games. I only saw it briefly whilst walking past the TV, but I'm convinced it was there (but then again, it was late and I'd had quite a few cans of Caffrey's). Anyway, told you it was irrelevant.... Bye. Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: rocopolis at earthlink dot net Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:42:36 -0400 Subject: KC LA tix I posses 2 tix for KC at the Greek this Sat. They're not bad seats but it turns out I cannot go. I am searching the net looking for someone who will take them from me at face value. Though you may know of someone. If so, call me at 213-655-1275, if not, sorry for having disturbed you. Thanks, Ricardo ROCO787,rocopolis at earthlink dot net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: greyowl at gvn dot net Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:43:21 -0800 Subject: Matte Kudasai Greetings! I hope I'm not sticking my nose where it is not welcomed, but I chanced upon a correspondence the other day which struck me as being able to use some correction. As I am a most infrequent peruser of Elephant Talk, I am well aware that this message may be, at the very least, untimely and possibly even annoyingly redundant, but here goes. Mark Kluth remarked in a recent correspondence that he believed the Japanese phrase (and Crimtune), 'Matte Kudasai' to mean "'My Beloved', or roughly the equivalent." In fact, 'matte' is better translated as 'wait' and 'kudasai' as a polite marker. The more literal translation is "Wait, please" whereas the more meaningful, useful, and helpful translation into English for all us gai-jin out here is "Please wait" or "Just a moment, please" or "Please wait a moment." Hopefully you will find this insightfully helpful. Anyway, I'll see you in Berkeley. (I'll be wearing white :{)) - Tommy Kochel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:07:44 -0700 From: Richard Sippel Subject: Massachusetts H.O.A.R.D. Tickets available! Dear ET Folk: I have at least [2] H.O.A.R.D.tickets, Section 2, Row AA.@ $50.00 or so and a [single] in the "boondocks" (but at least it's under the roof of the Pavillion,) for $40.00. New job so I may not be able to attend the show. Many contacts came thru with tix, hence the extras. Anybody interested will have to E-mail me for a purchase scheme. My E-mail is: sippel at earthlink dot net, or perhaps call and leave mssg @ 617-977-2734 if interested. The show is 15 August 1996 at Great Woods, Mansfield, MA. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 22:16:52 -0800 From: gj at iRock dot Com (G. J. Goldwyn/iRock.Communications Inc.) Subject: KC on iRock! I'm not sure how many of you also subscribe to "on-reflection" or to rec.music.progressive, but just in case you are not aware of iRock and what we bring for free to the wired world via the Net, then http on over to www.iRock.Com and LISTEN to what we're doing. I'll try not to make this one a run-on sentence. There. Okay, so here's my point. We had guitarist extrodinare, Mike Keneally in to play guest CyberDJ and he played some excellent tracks. He played something from "Islands." We have a playlist at http://www.iRock.Com/playlist.html. The KC is in Show #55. You can listen on your Windows PC if you have one. -gj Standard Disclaimer: Sory my spel chekers bustid. ................................................ | mailto:gj at iRock dot Com | | iRock - Internet Music Radio | =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 18:50:20 +0100 From: alex at membrane dot univ-rouen dot fr (Stephane.Alexandre) Subject: Mellotron, Yes and Tangerine Dream Dear Elephant Talkers, Just a technical note about Yes : Rick Wakeman used in the early seventies two mellotrons M400. One was set up with Brass, String and Flute and the other with Vocals (Choir), Sound effects and Vibes (from the inner sleeve of the six wives of Henry VIII). In the late seventies, as it was said before he replaced them with birotrons which were "processed" mellotrons (from a Wakeman Interview to a french magazine in 1978). The sound is a little cleaner than the sound of mellotrons but less emotional. An other group which used intensely the mellotrons was the germans Tangerine Dream during the seventies. Edgar Froese had a twin keyboard Mark V mellotron, Peter Baumann and Chris Francke had each a mellotron M400. All theses mellotrons were set up with String, Choir and Flute and/or Brass. From a paper I red in the seventies, the Froese's Mark V was also set up with tapes of noises (human talk, chidren, baby cries and so on). However, if Edgar Froese used these sounds on stage, I do not know on which album, you can ear it. Something interesting is that Froese had also an ARP omni string synthesizer but he still used mainly the string mellotron until the end of the seventies (actually on the photo from the "Encore" sleeve, the 1977 live album recorded in USA, one can see Edgar Froese on the left playing its Mark V). Peter Baumann and Chris Francke had also each an ARP soloist synthesizer and an Elka sting synthesizer. However, the sound used for most of the melodic part of their music came from mellotrons. They sometimes used their string synthesizers to double the mellotrons sound which may be quite confusing. For GP (Gareth Page) : I do not think Magma used mellotrons (at least not on the records I have). However, since most of the french keyboard players played with Magma, only God knows. Cheers, Stephane (Pardon my English) Alexandre ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #293 ********************************