Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #281 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 281 Friday, 7 June 1996 Today's Topics: Thanks Tony Variety is.../uk reviled/Dead found in hiway/spine tinglers revealed Schizoid Man Single! KC in Mannheim, Germany I must object to Objectivism Earthbound--a bootleg? Bill Bruford work Tour, Sylvian, etc... Special ET/Crimson Gig dream Attention DAVID TORN & MICK KARN fans Further adventures of Earthworks members Bruford and Di Meola Starless 1996 ThrakAttak not out in US yet Sylvian/Fripp laserdisc plea ESC Articulate Announcement #3 Bootleg Amnesty Another rambling message... New Crimson Studio Album Lyrics to THRAK album sheltering sky UK Crimson Tickets for Sale!!!! Re: Almost 21st Century Schizoid Man Re: Whining Adrian Belew's _On_ Whining (A.E. Collins on "Schizoid Man" Re: Various Things Re: Crimsongs Objectivism ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A ------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: Send a message with a body of 'help' to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorrfer (Webmeister), Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A ------------------- Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 13:49:28 -0700 From: Karen Baumgart Subject: Thanks Tony Hi there, I'm just a little EXCITED! We are going to the show in San Diego,CA and guess where we get to sit....front row center. Thanks to Mr Tony Levin for his homepage (great page I might add (I especially love E-pizza)), he kept us all posted on the show dates and I was calling around for tickets even before they went on sale. In Tony's honor, well we be the couple wearing the Papa Bear tees and smiles. Tony's url http://www.papabear.com/tlev.htm If any other ETers, in the same vicinity would like to tail gate (BYO coffee and cookies) before the show e-mail me personally. Maybe this time I will be able to see Bill play, last show there was a rather tall stick player standing blocking my view. see you at the show -spike Life's a blast, let's explode! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:15:45 -0400 From: Nel3 at aol dot com Subject: Variety is.../uk reviled/Dead found in hiway/spine tinglers revealed ...the spice of life! And I was shocked to hear the two similarly-named Watanabe albums trashed in such a clueless and slightly slack way - BB's and Jeff Berlin obviously stimulated Mr.Watanabe into a performance that re-invigorates a genre that most had given up on - I found those two albums undiscovered gems and enought to tide me over between the break-up of the 80's KCrimson and the creation of Earthworks ...speaking of Earthworks, it was depressing to say the least to hear of the demise of Earthworks. I'd chalk it up to rumour if I hadn't seen that the post-er was Anil Prasad. MY rating (on a 5pt scale) of the Earthworks albums follow: Earthworks - 5.0 Dig - 3.0 All Heaven - 4.0 Stamping Ground - 5.0 As to Bruford: Feels Good - 5.0 One of a Kind - 5.0 Gradually Going - 2.5 Bruford Tapes - 3.5 As to Bruford-Moraz (take note Matt C/Emuguy5830 at aol dot com): extremely disappointing and I'd rather not even compare them to the above-mentioned classics except to say that it seemed to me that BB was working out some inner rhythmic calculus that allowed him to progress as a drummer. Much more interesting to me was the work he did with The New Percussion Group of Amsterdam... On the reU(K)nion: one comment - (yawn) - ok more: let sleeping dinosaurs lie - they never topped the first album, w/out holdsworth it's a waste, and john wetton's voice is shot (if chasing the dragon's any indication - which btw gets a big fat goose egg on my 5pt rating system - docked 1pt for mixing the drums up in front of everything...), ditto adding Wetton back in as a vocalist - comparisons to his voice of years ago are odious to me... Improv vs no-improv? Have to agree (at least to an extent) with Kenneth Kreutzer: The kind of pure chord-less improv of the '73-74 era band isn't the stuff of great jazz albums, (but it is great anyway) so comparisons to Coltrane et al are apples to oranges, just like comparisons to the dead are like apples to road-apples.... My votes for new (old) Crimson tour stuff: I have to second the vote of Lizard Man (Dalton at Isidis dot Colorado dot Edu) for "Fracture" and "Satori in Tangier." Someone also mentioned "Great Deceiver." ooooh yeah.. How about "The Mincer," or "Fallen Angel" talk about a spine tingler....that guitar.... ...And for Joel Palmer, my spine tinglers: "Fallen Angel" for that guitar... David Torn's "Lion of Boaz" for its moody sonics... Bruford's "5G" for the bass and guitar lines and a score of other "demon snippets" from a host of Bruford albums... Wayne Shorter's staggering soprano sax work on Weather Report's "Palladium" and on his own "Daredevil" and "On the Milky Way Express" (this last from his latest release)... and Branford Marsalis doing his Wayne Shorter-tribute for 15min on "The Peacocks"... Mahavishnu Orch.'s "Birds of Fire" for its "fire"... Cockburn's "After the Rain," "Hoop Dancer" and "Tibetan Side of Town" for their stream-of consciousness lyricism mated to perfect music... The Church's Byrds-in-Australia guitar jangle in "Russian Autumn Heart"... The crunching bass of the live version of Cream's "Deserted Cities of the Heart"... Neil Young's extended slo-mo-intro to "Cortez the Killer"... Lowell George's slide guitar harmony over the Tower of Power saxophone leads on Little Feat's "Mercenary Territory"... David Darling's electric cello solo on Ralph Towner's New Moon... ...and anything by Hendrix but especially "All Along the Watchtower and Hey Baby (New Rising Sun)... ------------------------------ From: tjlever at ibm dot net Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:50:37 Subject: Schizoid Man Single! Just heard on the grapevine that their are plans to release a 5 track CD-Single in late June. All 5 tracks will be versions of Schizoid Man by various line-ups. Fan-That-I-Am (FTIA), I would prefer the group to be looking forward - creating new material - rather than looking back and re-working older material. Comments? Trevor Lever tjlever at ibm dot net ------------------------------ From: jkertz at rzws dot fh-aalen dot de Subject: KC in Mannheim, Germany Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 11:40:13 +0200 Some quick facts about KCs gig in Mannheim: Venue: Rosengarten, Musensaal (a stylish 1500-seat hall with columns and a balcony sweeping all around, which seems to be more suited for classical concerts rather than a KC one, too much echoes coming from the back wall to my seat in the 3rd row making the sound not nearly as good as in Stuttgart last year, surprisingly the audience was sitting not standing as the tickets stated, no scrutinizing for cameras etc. at all at the entrance) Setlist: Bordeaux minus VROOOM VROOOM, 3OAPP, One Time, Matte Kudesai plus Talking Drum (opener) and Walking On Air (highlights were a killer Red, the wildest Indiscipline ever and of course 21stCSM) Staging: The light-show included some fine moments but was not breathtaking, audience-microphones were set up besides the speakers. Merchandising: THRaK ATTak and B'Boom for 35 DM each, T-Shirts also 35 DM (I got the white one with the album covers, looks great) My next KC-gig: Nuremberg on Tuesday (hope they don't skip VROOOM VROOOM again!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:55:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Suber Subject: I must object to Objectivism > Yes, sure. Let's all follow the ideaology of "intellectuals", > Socialism. Rah, rah, let's all move to France. > > Sheesh. You have to realize: > > 1. Rand escaped communist Russia. > > 2. She came to the US, and encountered an "intellectual elite" who > were all praising to high heavens what she had escaped. > > In the opinion of many students of history, the success of her novels > played a large part in keeping the US at least partially capitalist. > For that, I could never thank her enough. I do not disagree with Ayn Rand's view of economics. She takes a classical view of economics that can scarcely be improved on, BUT there are points in history where the free market can not bring itself out of the doldrums. There is empirical evidence that points this out. The study of economics did not reach a level of absolute perfection with Smith, Say, and Ricardo. Socialism is not practical, but a free market, capitalist government can borrow money to implement programs even Adam Smith would approve of. The following econonmic activity can allow the extra tax moneys to repay the debt. This happened in Spanish History, with real gold and silver. Keynesian economics is a practical view of Macroeconomics. Monetarian theorey has a view of economics that DEPENDS upon a government backed currency. What about her views upon Existentialism? What about her belief that a kind act is evil? What about her history of plagiarism? What about the affair with a much younger man that drove Frank O' Conner, her husband, close to suicide? Actions speak louder than words; Ayn Rand's actions were not those of a noble person. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 11:12:29 -0400 From: Lewis/Barbara Pollak Subject: Earthbound--a bootleg? >I have read several posts where it has been mentioned that EARTHBOUND was >a bootleg recording and Mr. Fripp deleted it because of poor quality, or >something to that nature. However I have a copy of EB, vinyl, that is >black with silver lettering. It is on Island records and has an E.G. >music copyright on it. It seems very legitimate to me. Was EB really a >bootleg? Just curious. Looking forward to THRAKING this summer. I think mine has an E.G. etc. on it too. This album was my first KC, which I picked up for a buck at a garage sale about fifteen years ago and I wouldn't trade it for the world. No, the sound quality may not be the greatest (well, it may be pretty bad) but the incredible Mel Collins licks and my favorite version of 21stCSM make this album a real treat. I only wish there were more available from this KC lineup. Poor sound quality or no, I'd like Mr. Fripp to know this is one of my favorite albums by ANY group that I own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:40:36 -0700 From: Patrick Lanz Subject: Bill Bruford work In addition to the albums you have listed, I have the following ones with Bill Bruford: Absolute Elsewhere: In Search Of Ancient Gods Vinyl: Warner Bross K 56192. Recorded in 1976, with Bill Bruford on percussion on the wholw album. Al di Meola: Scenario. Vinyl: CBS 25718 Recorded in 1983, with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin on one track. Pavlov's Dog: At The Sound Of The Bell. Vinyl: CBS 81163 Recorded in 1976, with Bill Bruford (I think on the whole album: he's listed as Guest Artist, but there is no other drummer !). Annette Peacock: Been In The Strrets Too Long Vinyl: ironicrecords no. 5 Recorded in 1974-75-83, with Bill Bruford on one song, recorded 1975. Annette Peacock: X-Dreams Vinyl: Tomato TOM 7025 Recorded in 1979, Bill Bruford is one of the four drummers in the album. I also have the following albums with David Cross: Clearlight: Forever Blowing Bubbles Vinyl: Virgin V2039 Recorded in 1975, David Cross is listed as a guest. Radius: Arc Measuring CD: Ear-Rational ECD 1006 Recorded in 1988, David Cross plays the whole album Radius: Sightseeing CD: Ear-Rational ECD 1017 Recorded in 1989, David Cross plays the whole album ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 11:22:24 EDT From: "MODERN ANGEL O:)" Subject: Tour, Sylvian, etc... I've noticed a lot of people wondering just where the hell the Paramount Theater is, if in fact there is one. Yes, there is, it is in Asbury Park (not too far from Convention Hall, or the Casino, where KC played the gig that produced the song "Asbury Park"--odd how things come full circle?), and I seem to remember Pat Metheny playing there a few years back... Another date I've seen mentioned for the NJ area is the Mann Music Center in Philadelphia, on the 26th. I'd like to see a full listing of KC dates if one's available... "Weatherbox" is out of print. Apparently, some of the rare material off of that is being released some time this year as part of a sort of "Best Of" on Virgin Records (This according to stuff I saw a while back on the David Sylvian web page). That's all from me for now... BTW: Anyone heard a release date for "On"? Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:13:51 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Special ET/Crimson Gig dream Since it has recently been mentioned that we should "be careful what you wish for", I will go ahead and publicily wish for the following: How about an ET-only Crimson concert, in the NYC region (with perhaps west coast and European analogs). This would be a concert available only to those subscribing to ET. Not only could we be reasonably assured that our fellow ETers would not scream during the Dinosaur break (or shout "DID YOU?" during Indiscipline), KC could be free to do some things they might not otherwise try. They would have an audience of listeners well familiar with the whole context of King Crimson. They could try things sure to be unpopular with most fans, or trial-run other things they've been thinking about. More than anything else, however, would be the atmosphere. I strongly believe that the silence of an audience takes on its own character than can invite performers into new areas. It would be way cool and quite intense. In addition, we could meet in person, have dinner and beers with each other, and close the circle that electronic internet only begins. How about it folks? -Emory. PS: I found it amusing that, although people responded strongly to my statements recently about Gold CDs and the Greatful Dead's ability to improvise, no one argued with the equation, Trent Reznor=SPAM. ------------------------------ From: aprasad at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Attention DAVID TORN & MICK KARN fans Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 11:20:27 EDT Just wanted to let everyone know about a fantastic interview with singer-songwriter ANDY RINEHART that just went up on the INNERVIEWS webzine. In case you don't know who Andy Rinehart is, he's an American multi-instrumentalist and composer who puts together some of the most unique and engaging "progressive" pop songs around. His latest release _Jason's Chord_ was produced by guitar anarchist David Torn. The release features Torn's guitar acrobatics, as well as killing bass work from Mick Karn. The interview is an in-depth look at Rinehart's career and muse. It's also a deep look at the making of Jason's Chord and working with Mick Karn and David Torn. To top it off, the interview includes an introduction by Torn! But wait! There's more! The interview also features a hilarious and *exclusive* eight-minute RealAudio sound clip in which David Torn interviews Andy Rinehart himself! This interview is a must for fans of eloquent, well-crafted songs, as well as David Torn and Mick Karn enthusiasts. Go check it out at: http://www.carleton.ca/~aprasad/ (Netscape optimized) P.S. Don't forget to check out the excellent Mick Karn interview -- featuring Karn's views on Rinehart and _Jason's Chord_. ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Anil Prasad aprasad at ccs dot carleton dot ca ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ ------------------------------ From: max dot bracco at iol dot it Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 20:26:33 Subject: Further adventures of Earthworks members Hi to all Web-crawlers I noticed in previous ET that, when you talk about other albums by DJANG= O BATES, you only mention his last CDs on JMT label. Those are very interesting recor= ds indeed, but in the late '80s Bates (together with Earthworks sax player Ian Bellamy) was also leader = of a fantastic English big-band called LOOSE TUBES. They cut 3 excellent albums , but I think only the th= ird "Open Letter" is = available on CD (Editions EG / Virgin). It carries very imaginific arra= ngements, and also some of the humour present in Earthworks music. About recent Bates works, I found another great buy made in '94 : "DORAN - STUDER - MINTON - BATES - ALI play the music of JIMI HENDRIX" (= Verabra Records) It's one of the wildest tributes to Hendrix ever made, with plenty of wei= rd rearrangements and furious jazz-rock improvisations. These two CDs help a lot to undestand better the complex personality of t= his keyboardman/composer. Bye to all MAX from Italy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:03:05 -0400 (EDT) From: jeremiah? HA! Subject: Bruford and Di Meola A post in the last ET included Al Di Meola's _Land of the Midnight Sun_ as an album Bruford played on. This album does indeed have some heavyweight drummers, Steve Gadd and Lenny White, but unfortunately no sign of Broof. jeremy <*> afn39111 at afn dot org <*> At the end of a rope too short for a noose. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:26:57 -0600 (CST) From: earthbound starblind Subject: Starless 1996 >>But the ultimate experience must surely be to witness _Starless_ performed >>live...I wonder what Mr. Fripp thinks about the current group of musicians >>tackling this marvelous piece? >I think Fripp would probably decide that 2/3 of the song is simply too sparse >to perform as a sixpiece. With 5-minutes of bass/guitar/nothingelsebuta... I don't see any reason why the other musicians in Crimson couldn't sit on their hands for a few minutes during the 5 minute buildup. I'd hope they'd be music- ally disciplined enough to do so. Remember, Bill Bruford sat with his arms crossed and played nothing during "Trio" back in 1974, and Fripp gave him credit for helping "compose" the tune. There is obvious merit in a musician's ability to restrain themselves. Mastelotto sat out on plenty of material during the last leg of the tour, such as the first part of "Red" and "Matte Kudasai". Be- sides, even the buildup section of Starless calls for two percussionists. Listen to the album version - there's the repetitive temple block part, and then the eerie special effects. I think Bruford and Mastelotto could have a lot of fun with that. I believed there were certain songs the double trio just wouldn't/couldn't do, "Starless" being one of them. But now that they are playing Schizoid, I think anything is possible. Maybe Fripp has loosened up just a bit... ------------------------------ From: ckk at uchicago dot edu Subject: ThrakAttak not out in US yet Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:32:59 -0500 Last night (Tuesday June 4, 1996, 7th anniversary of Tiananmen Square massacre) I asked the guy at the info desk in the Oakbrook Illinois Borders Books' music dept. to look up KC's new Thrak Attak. It's definitely not in the store yet and he checked but it's not even listed yet, in their US record industry database of upcoming releases. (it's not in the import dept. either so I'll just have to wait patiently while you UK guys enjoy it :-) Borders is a good store for CD's and they do carry some relatively obscure stuff (the Oakbrook store was playing the long free jam off John McLaughlin's new CD when I walked in, and they even have MY "Brains" computer music CD :-) (http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/brains.html). So I figure they will definitely jump on Thrak Attak when it is actually released in the US. The guy who looked it up for me said HE definitely wants to buy a copy :-). Another tidbit: last week in San Francisco I saw a copy of the Sylvian/Fripp "Damage" CD, for sale at the Virgin Records Megastore on Market St., in their "boxed set" dept. (it is in a box although it's only 1 CD :-), in case you're looking for a copy in the Bay Area. I picked up "Radiophonics" there, so it's finally out in the US (wasn't available a couple of weeks ago), haven't listened to it yet. Let's see, any final comment.... oh yes thanks for listing Tony Levin's Web page, I also enjoyed his link to the page of "Stingray" bass guitars, especially the six-string model which looks very interesting..... also maybe I'll write to Steinberger's email address that he gives, about the upright electric thing. Later, Chris Koenigsberg: ckk at uchicago dot edu, ckk at pobox dot com [moving to Princeton NJ this fall, want to hire me there?] (also http://www.pobox.com/~ckk) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:44:15 -0600 (CST) From: earthbound starblind Subject: Sylvian/Fripp laserdisc plea Psychic Zero pleads: >I'm sure someone on this list has [the S/F laserdisc]. Could some kind soul >make a videotape copy for me...? Count me in as well. I've been wanting the VHS copy of this disc for a long time but haven't gotten around to entering my own plea. Whoever might volunteer to help me out: I'd be willing to send you my own blank tape and even monetary compensation for your efforts if you could make me a copy. Thanks, JP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:46:31 -0400 From: Emuguy5830 at aol dot com Subject: ESC um, While browsing through the racks at a local record shop earlier today, I caught sight of familiar looking quarter-moon logo. Curious, I picked up the cd to see what it was and why I had recognized it. Sure enough, it was the Europa String Choir's cd The Starving Moon, the cover to which has been printed in Possible's last couple of catalogues. I was intrigued, but . . . . . . I was a little hesitant about buying it. There hasn't been any (that I know of) elephant talk about the ESC and usually, if something is this good, there are hordes of posts--Damage comes to mind. Well, I guess I was feeling adventurous because I decided to buy it. For those of you who own this, I'm sure you know that it is amazing. I'm really blown away. This is one fine album! To me, it sounds sorta like the RFSQ with viola. Really fine music. For those of you who don't own, take necessary steps to insure that you soon will. Questions: What exactly are "chordclouds" and "angels"? From the last ET, I understand the ESQ are currently playing in Europe. Are there plans to come to the states? Plans for future albums? Any past albums or is this the first? General band history and so on? I'm sure some of you fellow ET'ers can help here. keeping abreast of the competition Matt C Post post--if anyone is interested, I've got a 1981 live Greg Lake cd that I don't want. It contains various songs from his first solo album, a couple of ELP tunes, and two nicely done KC songs--Schizo and ItCotCK. I've also got a Jackson Heights cd that's gathering dust. This was Lee Jackson's post-Nice band. This also album includes our man Mike Giles on drums. Interested? Email me. I'm looking to trade for just about any kind of KC boot (spec. something with Cirkus. I love Cirkus!). ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1996 14:57:21 -0700 From: "Tim Salmon" Subject: Articulate Announcement #3 ARTICULATE ANNOUNCEMENT #3 IN response to: Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:47:20 GMT From: Andrew Corradino Subject: Relatively New Fan...who wrote: What language do the phrases "Thela Hun Gingeet" and "Matte Kudasai" come from, and what do they mean in that language? The Answers: "THIS IS A DANGEROUS PLACE!" As Adrian himself told the assembled crowd during a lecture/performance at San Francisco State University [in answer to MY ;-) question: "Did THELA HUN GINJEET really happen?"]: Yes, in fact it did happen, & the tape was rolling as he returned to the studio to tell the story. "Thela Hun Gingeet" is actually a scrambled version of "Heat in the Jungle," and it's discovery was apparently made on a jetliner, aided by a Scrabble) game! "Matte Kudasai" is Japanese for "Wait please." The way I've usually heard it is "Chotto matte kudasai," or "Please wait a little." -- TS ------------------------------ Date: 05 Jun 96 18:00:38 EDT From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Bootleg Amnesty Thanks to everyone who responded to our request for '69 Crimson boots. Response has been very good and we now know all about the various permutations of Plumpton, Chesterfield and BBC recordings that are available. Apropos the promised mention on a forthcoming album to anyone who could turn up something special, we received a previously unheard tape of Filmore East from Mr M. Giles of Bath. His name will be going on the album. Well done ! Anyone got a good copy of Croydon? Best wishes Hugh O'Donnell Office manager DGM ------------------------------ From: Stuart Wugalter Date: Jun 05, 1996 17:07:03 Subject: Another rambling message... Well, two posts this year so far might declassify me as a lurker...damn! As always, thanks to Toby 'the Draconian' ;) et al for their work. Many of you who subscribe here do computer work and know it takes a whole shitload (this is for *you* senator exxon) of work to keep stuff like this and the web site g oing. For those of you who don't appreciate my rambling style...well stop reading. I refuse to number or organize my thinking here...think of it as improvisation of the mind. For those of you who have privately emailed me, I was too blown a way by your descriptions of your experiences 'seeing' music to respond...I mea n really what could I say. I previously speculated on the musicical influences on the members of KC direc tly or indirectly. One I forgot to mention is Karlheinz Stockhausen. I have a very old scratched Deutsche Grammaphone recording of his, but I remember the o ne I heard in the late 60's was called Musick Conkrete (sorry for my non-Germa n here) was a favorite. I think I remember hearing that Brain Eno and David Bo wie liked Karl's stuff. Anyone know if RF does? I got my tickets to see them at the Greek in Los Angeles. God, they were expen sive, but I got 11th row seats on the right side. I am so EXCITED I can hardly contain myself. I saw them at the same venue in the early 80's doing what I r efer to as their Beat/Discipline tour. I still really want a copy of the video The Noise, BTW just in case anyone has a copy or two lying around. The Greek is a great venue for me. It is outdoors and in the middle of a beautiful park. "Wa-hey!" My wife might go to the concert with me, but she is not much of a fan...we won 't go into that! So send me your sob story and I might have an extra ticket available if she does not go. I am not really interested in the $ as much as someone who really likes the group and who maybe can't afford it. I couldn't afford it last summer, so I know what its like and last fall it was the day after my wedding so I missed that one too. The only visual record besides my poor memory I have of any KC type stuff is t he RFSQ video on VHS. It's quality is degrading quickly, but it is awesome. I really love the CGT and I swear there is a moment in one of the songs where RF 'zones'. That is, it looks like he just becomes one with the music and his ey es sparkle and a little smile creeps over his face...it looked like such a spi ritual moment. BTW, one of the reasons I like KC is that I think...well, frankly: THIS LIFE S UCKS! And the music of this band reflects both the beauty and horror of this p lace. Don't you think some of the music RF plays sounds downright evil at time s? It reminds me of some of my blackest moods. I'll end this rambling monologue with another in the unending saga of songs I think it would be kewl for KC to play: Fat Lady of Limbourg (by Eno), Somthing interesting by the Grateful Dead like Blues for Allah; or God forbid some Coltrane piece (I know its not rock, but maybe it could be...heh heh heh). Oh yeah, kewl that they are playing Schizoid Man again. I would like to hear Adrian sing it. Not my first choice, but hey I'm not a member of the group am I? Peace, as always. --Stuart Wugalter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:21:04 -0700 From: rattus at sprynet dot com Subject: New Crimson Studio Album Hi Guys, I work at a record store in St. louis, Mo., and while talking to one of our buyers today I have found that the new Crimson studio album is due in late summer. Looking forward to the show here in St. Louis in August, and hope it's going to be as good as the Chicago gig last year. Chris Madalena, rattus at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:20:49 -0700 From: Jiri Cizek Organization: Univerzity of economics at Prague Subject: Lyrics to THRAK album Hi Elephant talk HP is very nice. I was only sad that lyrics to THRAK album were still not completed. I don't know what is the problem but if it's only the words themselves I've found them on the following address: http://www.utu.fi/~petolo/crimson/thrak.html Have a nice time JC +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Jiri Cizek University of Economics, Prague "I Get Up, Email:xcizj03 at vse dot cz I Get Down" Phone:-42-2-240 95 595 - YES - +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:49:47 -0700 From: "David A. Craig" Subject: sheltering sky I'm quivering with excitement. (you think i'm joking? i can hardly type straight) They're performing "the sheltering sky"? Oh, joy, i am wounded by beauty ... ------------------------------ Date: 06 Jun 96 11:10:25 EDT From: "Jim A." <100753 dot 322 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: UK Crimson Tickets for Sale!!!! Due to unforeseen circumstances, I have 2 tickets going spare for the Shepherds Bush Empire Crimson gig in London on June 30. They are downstairs tickets & cost L19.75 each (including booking fee). I can let them go for L17 each or L32 for both. I may be able to deliver (I live in the North of England). Email me for more details! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:34:37 +0000 From: khoffman at giantfood dot com (Kurt Hoffman) Subject: Re: Almost 21st Century Schizoid Man As to the negatives about KC doing Schizoid Man; 1) Much as members of the ET world might hate to admit it, KC is involved in the process of delivering product to the masses; 2) Much as it may also be hated to admit, Schizoid (along with possibly Court and Cat Food) were the signature KC songs from the bands inception days, at least relevent to FM radio here in the states, and probably that exposure (no pun intended) lead to a lot of us hearing KC for the first time; 3) Schizoid has been performed by more than just the original inception of the band, witness Eartbound and USA (could this be why Fripp didn't want thoseout as discs- a secret hatred for that damn song again?- just a joke); 4) Any band that takes advantage of a back catalog of OUTSTANDING material should really not be slighted for it unless they make a career of it (Steppenwolf being the band that comes immediately to mind), something I don't have any fears of KC doing; 5) Having heard Greg Lake, Boz Burrell and John Wetton play the walking bass lines to the solo break, I am fascinated to see what Tony and Tre will do to it, and maybe Robert will gives us one more time on that famous "processed" solo; 6) OK, even I am not really ready for another vocoder processed voice screaming "21st century schizoid man- ow" (sorry Boz), so maybe we'll here Adrian do it straight...Please! 7) Maybe if we all play nice with KC, they'll do more older stuff- I don't hear anyone that loves classical music crying over another version of dead-guy music, or anyone too upset at the idea that a jazz standard is being redone by someone else, and lets face it, anyone who ever heard April Wine's version of Schizoid knows that it is far better for KC to cover KC than (for the most part) let someone else try. Later ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:22:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Whining On Tue, 4 Jun 1996 Ashley Edward Collins wrote: > Just wanted to get a couple things off my chest. Feel free to stick a > pacifier in my mouth at any time. > > I was a little dissappointed to hear that Crimso decided to include > "Schizoid Man" in their set. I guess I can understand their doing it as a > lark (pun definitely intended), but really, the thought of their performing > older material . . . something about it just doesn't ring kosher. I guess > I'm reminded of an interview I read with Van Halen in Rolling Stone years > ago where Sammy Hagar mentioned he was dead set against performing "Jump" > live just because a) the song had David Lee Roth written all over it and b) > because if they performed too much older material, he felt like he was in a > f***ing cover band. The Van Halen situation is a much different one than Crimso. Remember, King Crimson was unable to keep a somewhat stable lineup until the 80s. Not everyone was able to stay on two albums a piece. The people, when going to see King Crimson, were going for the music and Fripp, who has been the mainstay. Van Halen, however, wanted to try to distance themselves somewhat from the Roth material, and show that they didn't NEED Roth to be a viable music act. > Performing older material, to me, sounds like the Crims are, God > forbid my saying this, selling out. Even though I haven't been thoroughly > impressed with the double trio lineup, I've still felt that Crimso was one > of the few truly "progressive" bands, i.e. they don't live in the past. I > don't have as much of a problem with their performing the '80s material, > since that was essentially the same line-up, But by your own words, it's not technically the same lineup, and so they shouldn't play any of the 80s material. > but the choice of performing > "Red," "Larks' Tongues II," etc. seems almost like pandering. Yeah, I > know, Fripp said they chose those pieces because they sounded like they > could have been written when Discipline came out, but that was 15 years > ago. They've got three albums worth of older material they could mine that > featured 2/3 of the current line-up. Hmmm, gee, why would they want to play these tunes, then? Could it be... that they LIKE to play the tunes? Of all the acts that I can think of that are out there, Crimson is probably the LEAST pandering of the bunch. If Fripp wanted to pander to the fans, they would have attempted songs like Starless and 21st Century Schizoid Man in the 80s, as opposed to Larks' & Red. Or Islands material during the 72-74 tours. And, let's face it, a lot of pieces would not hold up well as six-piece tunes. Discipline, the song, for example, was written specifically so that the four pieces would be so interlocked that none would be completely playing lead. It would be next to impossible to do this for six players. > The mid-'70s stuff was recorded by an > almost completely different band, and the new line-up doesn't really add > too much to it. And "Schizoid" was written by a TOTALLY different band! > And I don't really buy into Fripp's assertion that Crimson is an entity, > that the personnel don't matter, which could be used as a defense of this. To each his own. I happen to agree with Fripp. By your reasoning, bands like Yes would not have been able to play basically anything at the recent SLO shows. Dream Theater, losing their keyboardist, would have been able to play nothing, by your reasoning. Playing older pieces is not pandering, it's mainly for enjoyment. If Crimso didn't want to play a piece they'd drop it. Period. 21st Century Schizoid Man is not a pander, but more of a "thank you" to the fans. There's a difference. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:24:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Adrian Belew's _On_ Has anyone heard any information as to when Adrian Belew's _On_ is going to be released? Last I heard it was this spring. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:59:45 +0100 From: kjh857 at hecky dot acns dot nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Whining (A.E. Collins on "Schizoid Man" > I was a little dissappointed to hear that Crimso decided to include >"Schizoid Man" in their set. I guess I can understand their doing it as a >lark (pun definitely intended), but really, the thought of their performing >older material . . . something about it just doesn't ring kosher. > Performing older material, to me, sounds like the Crims are, God >forbid my saying this, selling out. This is my first post, and I've been enjoying the discussion on various KC topics. Regarding the sudden re-appearance of "21stCSM" and apparent selling out--what's wrong with a little historical perspective? I think that hearing some of their older tunes with the new line-up can shed some interesting light on interpreting the old tunes. Besides, Fripp et al. were of course doing "Schizoid" with the _Islands_ line-up (heard on _Earthbound_) and of course many times with the '74 line-up. It seems to me that if Fripp were to re-visit older material, "21stCSM" would be a natural--comparing different versions of the tune over the various line-ups of the 70s incarnation shows in retrospect just how many styles KC evolved through. Granted, not all (not many?) of the older songs will work with the sextet--I think we all know that. But I for one am delighted to learn that Fripp isn't totally discarding his past. (One undercurrent that I think runs through much KC is that of menace... so while I think "21stCSM" is appropriate, I don't think we'll have to hold our breaths waiting for them to revive "Moonchild" anytime soon...:-) ) Kevin Holm-Hudson kholmhud at nwu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:01:51 -0600 From: eric at webpro-1 dot com (Eric D. Dixon) Subject: Re: Various Things "Gordon Emory Anderson" wrote: >Second of all, I too believe that King Crimson could do much more along the >lines of improvisation. I still wish they would do "Sheltering Sky", just so i >could hear Fripp solo. I still maintain that on the "Indisciple" bootleg, one >can hear diety in Fripp's solo, right towards the end there with the high >notes. Amen to that. I never realized what a wonderful piece that was until I heard it on a copy of "Indisciple Mining Rocks" that a friend made for me. I almost fell out of my chair. Eric D. Dixon eric at webpro-1 dot com Hey you! Yeah, you! Check out my homepage... http://www.webpro-1.com/staff/edd/eric/brickpage.html "The ultimate result of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:02:07 -0600 From: eric at webpro-1 dot com (Eric D. Dixon) Subject: Re: Crimsongs ajbas at sirius dot com (Andrew Benzie) wrote: >But the ultimate experience must surely be to witness _Starless_ performed >live, the most incredible piece of music I've ever experienced. I wonder >what Mr. Fripp thinks about the current group of musicians tackling this >marvelous piece? Toward the end of the "Careful With That Axe" video, Fripp speaks longingly of _Starless_, indicating that he would "love to play that piece of music again." He then noted that the musicians were in place for a new formation of Crimson (this was in the early 90's, I believe), so we just may get to hear _Starless_ again at some point. I imagine one of the reasons they're not performing it is Belew's hesitancy to perform previous KC music that was written with another vocalist in mind. However, I can imagine Adrian singing _Starless_ -- and it would be beautiful. Eric D. Dixon eric at webpro-1 dot com Hey you! Yeah, you! Check out my homepage... http://www.webpro-1.com/staff/edd/eric/brickpage.html "The ultimate result of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:05:38 -0600 From: eric at webpro-1 dot com (Eric D. Dixon) Subject: Objectivism Andrew Suber wrote: > Let's get the record straight about Ayn Rand. She is a bit of a >charlatan. The only group of intellectuals who have really embraced >Objectivism are New Classical economists. Objectivsm was a fad of the >30s, I think you mean the 60's... >a mass marketing of philosophy on par with Rush Limbaugh or Billy >Graham. Ayn Rand was not an engineer, or an architect. She was a former >history student who blended Aristotle, Adam Smith and a illogical trust >in logic together. Boy, she really hated people who didn't produce >things, didn't she? She really hated people who relied on the work and >ideas of others, huh? Well, that is almost exactly what she did. She >plagarized other authors, and backed up her arguments with half-truths. I've never considered myself an Objectivist, but I've studied the philosophy fairly intensively for the last few years. You may come to the conclusion that Rand was incorrect, if you wish, but she was no charlatan. And Objectivism has penetrated American culture in many ways, in varying degrees. It had a huge influence on the founding of America's largest political party outside of the Republicans and Democrats (The Libertarian Party), the premises of one of Washington's most influential think tanks, The Cato Institute, and hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. A couple of years ago, the Library of Congress took a survey to determine the most influential books people had ever read -- _Atlas Shrugged_ placed second only to the Bible. Some of the people who have counted Rand as a major influence in their lives include: Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Federal Reserve Nathaniel Branden, director of the Biocentric Institute in Los Angeles & author of such books as _The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem_ and _Taking Responsibility_. Robert Bleiberg, publisher and editorial director of _Barron's_. David R. Henderson, former senior economist on Reagan's Council of Economic Advisors Jacquelyn Reinach, creator of the _Sweet Pickles_ children's series Tibor Machan, former senior editor of _Reason_ magazine and author of several books of libertarian philosophy Philosophers and economists from Nobel laureate Milton Friedman to John Hospers to Murray Rothbard to Robert Nozick to William F. Buckley to Ludwig von Mises. Of course, no argument should be accepted because many others accept it (although those mentioned above certainly have their differences with Rand), but to pass Rand's achievements off as a fad is a gross misrepresentation. Her philosophy is alive and well, seriously studied in universities and promoted by the Ayn Rand Institute and the Institute for Objectivist Studies, for starters. These organizations hold conferences and lectures all over the U.S. (there's a week-long Objectivist conference at the University of Colorado in Boulder this summer which I had planned on attending, but had to cancel). Of course, Rand was influenced by others -- can you name anyone who wasn't? The point is that she synthesized an amazingly (almost) consistent philosophy, creating something in the end that no one had ever come close to spelling out before. Her philosophy is much more than a combination of Adam Smith and Aristotle or Locke and Nietzsche, and far different. Her influences were just that -- influences. She took none of them at face value. I'm not asking that any of you accept that Rand was right (I have some big differences with her) -- but try to gain a little familiarity with her work before dismissing her. Whether you agree or not, her ideas were original and influential. They won't go away any time soon. Rand may be dead, but her legacy is alive and well. > Sorry for my attack on Objectivism, > Andrew No problem. This is the last I'll post to the list on this subject (unless it somehow relates in large part to Fripp/KC), but if any of you want to continue by private e-mail, I'd be happy to participate. P.S. -- I'm curious to know what you meant by "half-truths." Eric D. Dixon eric at webpro-1 dot com Hey you! Yeah, you! Check out my homepage... http://www.webpro-1.com/staff/edd/eric/brickpage.html "The ultimate result of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #281 ********************************