Errors-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #280 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 280 Tuesday, 4 June 1996 Today's Topics: ET admin Next Crimson studio album Re: Bruford/Levin appearance. Venue Info Request re: Crimsongs/requests Tour listing error? Improvisation Tony Geballe & Europa String Choir Re: Elephant Talk Digest #279 Weatherbox Sweet smell of success.... What's going on in France?????? Whining An "Island" CD sold with a "In the wake of Poseidon" cover and print ON the CD Sylvian/Fripp LaserDisc BRUFORD'S OFFICIAL DISCOGRAPHY Improv vs. no improv King Crimson is Life KC Europe Concerts Tickets Earthbound A Bootleg? Elephant Talk Posting Waiting for KC at Cologne, Germany Robert's sister and ten seconds 21csm, ssedd, sbe UK Repost KC - Greek Theater - Tix? KC at Merriweather Post Pav Relatively New Fan Yeah, but what about Belew's vocals??? I saw the king yesterday!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Administrivia: Visit the *new* ET on the web at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ or the partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/ The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 May 96 13:36:36 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: ET admin Hi everyone. Just a few quick notes: several ET readers have complained to me about the proliferation of messages on ET with a subject line of "RE: Elephant Talk Digest 666" instead of a proper, descriptive, subject line. This makes browing the digest hard, and also confuses our search engine for locating past posts. So, in future: posts to ET without proper subject lines won't make it into ET. They will instead be published in BlackHoleTalk, whose distribution list expands to /dev/null. Sorry to be a little Draconian on this. But that's what Moderators are for! :-) Also, from the next issue, we are changing our distribution method. You shouldn't see any effect of this. But in the next few weeks there will be a little upheaval which might mean slight delays in processing address changes, subs, unsubs and the like. Please bear with us. Finally, you might like to know that the UK's "Q" magazine mentions ET Web in their latest issue, and dscibes it as "ace". Kudos to our Webmeister Dan Kirkdorffer! Toby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:12:04 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: Next Crimson studio album >I'm glad I'm not the only one vaguely disappointed in the prospect/concept >of "Thrak Attack". I'd hope this KC has at least one more CD of _written_ >material to offer... though I enjoy the improvs, I agree with those posters >who assert that the band's best material was that which was either written >in advance, or which owed its genesis to earlier work (though I'd admit >that the improvs, notably "Asbury Park", have much to recommend them at >times). Does anyone know if the band is planning to do another album of >written material? I remember an interview written in ET a few months ago with Adrian Belew. He said that after the summer tour, the boys were going to start work on their next proper album. Hopefully, the next one will explore the double trio concept as it was originally intended; one trio playing something different in each speaker and occassionally coming together as a 6 piece band. By the way, I just got Radiophonics over the weekend. The only word I can think to describe it is stunning. It's unlike anything Fripp has yet done, and undoubtably the most avante garde thing he's ever performed. It's great that Fripp can still surprise and perform such amazingly original material. How many 50 year old artists are still growing? And it's anywhere from hard to impossible to hear the sound looping like you can in other soundscapes. Just incredible. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:51:30 -0400 From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Re: Bruford/Levin appearance. Thought I'd reply/trash my own post before the digest comes out and everyone else has a go. Chad Wackerman plays on Andy Summers' World Gone Strange CD. Sorry about that folks. James C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Kurt Kleinschmidt Subject: Venue Info Request I am very interested in seeing the Asbury Park NJ/Paramount Theater show on 8/24, but I seem to be having a difficult time finding any information on the venue. I have tried directory assistance and the Ticketbastard web pages to no avail. Help! Please spare the rest of the ETers by sending anything you may know directly to me at olias at one dot net. I am especially looking for a phone number where I can talk to a real person, but I will take a message line number if available. I am most interested in seeing the fellas at the Greek in Berkeley, but I am feeling too responsible. For those who don't know, this venue is at the foot of the hill on the campus of UC Berkeley overlooking the San Francisco Bay. I can not think of a better place to see KC work its magic. If you have the chance don't miss this opportunity. I have noted that the venues on this tour seem much bigger than on recent past ventures, even when they are not playing the HORDE. I will miss the smaller venues, but it is well worth it if the band is getting its due. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:20:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Le Monsieur Damon Subject: re: Crimsongs/requests On Tue, 21 May 1996 01:52:28, ajbas at sirius dot com (Andrew Benzie) wrote: > But the ultimate experience must surely be to witness _Starless_ > performed live, the most incredible piece of music I've ever > experienced. I wonder what Mr. Fripp thinks about the current group of > musicians tackling this marvelous piece? I think Fripp would probably decide that 2/3 of the song is simply too sparse to perform as a sixpiece. With 5-minutes of bass/guitar/ nothingelsebutafewextraneouspercussivesounds, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect Fripp and Levin to go through the motions while the rest of the band waits for the remainder of the song. Also, on Wed, 22 May 1996 00:49:51, MarkDAshby at aol dot com wrote: > We're never gonna get Schizoid. And to be honest, I'm glad. Somehow I > don't think it would sound right with this bunch. Could be just a big > disappointment. Well, according to Tony Levin's diary entry for the concert of May 28, 1996 on his web page, they played it! Who knows if they'll keep the song for later... Damon Capehart | "I think we should eliminate semicolons from the aka Le Monsieur | English language; nobody uses them anymore dcapehar at utdallas dot edu | anyway." - one of Dilbert's anonymous coworkers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:05:14 -0400 From: GBastug at essexusa dot com (Greg Bastug) Subject: Tour listing error? The following tour date is posted in Tony Levin's site: August 24 - Asbury Park, NJ - Paramount Theater But NJ information has no listing of a Paramount Theater in Asbury Park. (There IS a Paramount Diner, but I think that would be pushing the small venue concept a tad much...) Anyone have more current/accurate information? And this begs the larger question: I think we all assume Crimson will be touring independently in the US after HORDE, but I've never seen a hint of dates...Does anyone know if and when a full tour schedule will be posted? And I vote that the forthcoming Crimson video be made available on laserdisc as well as VHS Greg ------------------------------ From: Next Wave Festival Subject: Improvisation Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:05 AEST Dear All, One could say that most of the Soundscapes are improvisation, as noted in a recent review in Wire. That this aspect of Robert's work has not been given an informed analysis, as it has in the work electric guitarists like Fred Frith and others. I would argue that free improvisation has been an aspect of KC's work since the outset, and that this aspect coupled with structured 20th Century composition places the work in a fairly unique place in the commercial rock marketplace. Although.....the overlap between free improvisation and contemporary composition can be tracked through a number of rock histories....one might be the dynamic (debatable) link between John Cage, La Monte Young and John Cale....and on to Brian Eno who has, of course, collaborated extensivly with Fripp, Frith and Cale....... Those ET members interested in improvised music should have a look at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/ehome The European Improvisation Home Page. nextwave at peg dot apc dot org Next Wave Festival Inc 31 Victoria St Fitzroy 3065 Tel:+61 3 9417 7544 Fax:+61 3 9417 7481 ------------------------------ From: Peter dot Flach at kub dot nl Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:16:48 +0200 Subject: Tony Geballe & Europa String Choir I'm visiting Ljubljana right now, and I saw the announcement in ET of Tony Geballe/Europa String Choir Italy/Slovenia tour. I went to their concert in Ljubljana yesterday, which was in a small jazz club. I didn't know anything about them, and I must say it was quite good. They played a version of Vrooom (no coda) as the second song. The funny thing was that it really was two concerts: sometimes TG played a song (12string acoustic), then ESC would play a few (2 6string Ovations, 1 electric violin). They hardly played together. What I didn't like was their rendition of a piece from one of Bach's Cello Suites. Funny, also the California Guitar Trio insists on playing some Bach. Not that I'm a purist, but their versions just don't add anything to the originals. Any information about Tony Geballe and/or Europa String Choir would be appreciated. --Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:52:55 +0100 (BST) From: Richard Beck Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #279 If I allowed to reply to my own recent post: > I was flicking through the channels on my TV last night, and > happened upon the last 5 seconds of an arty advertisement for Dunlop > tyres. The soundtrack for this was '21st Century Schizoid Man' !! (Lots of > macho shots of cars driving through the rain and a final close-up on the > tyres) Saw it again last night - all of it this time. A black car driving around various arty objects (odd sculptures, fires, little men covered in silver paint) with occasional shots of the tyres being advertised. The soundtrack comprised the 1st verse of 21CSM - 'Cat's foot, iron claw ....... 21CSM' and then moved straight to the faster jazzy bit after the verses. All in all was on for about 20 seconds. Which leads me to........ > From: poisson at club-internet dot fr (Poisson Thomas) > Concert in Le Krakatoa, Bordeaux on May, 28th, 1996 > > Encore 1: 21st Century Schizoid Man > > First 6 songs were performed very well, but things only began to blow my > mind at Vrooom Vrooom. Ultra-powerful, followed by an excellent B'Boom - a > splendid Thrak +improv (I want to buy Thrakattack !!!).Nice to hear > Neurotica and 3OAPP. The last 6 were however the highlight of the show. Yes > you read it: THEY DID SCHIZOID MAN, and it fitted perfectly between > Indiscipline and Vrooom. What can I say, it was the moment of the night > when AB said "This song has not been performed in 22 years!!". They played > it as wild as you can imagine. Evrybody was going crazy, it was > superb. Very nice after-concert feeling, shared sensation of seeing > something really powerful. Now, are we about to see a re-release of 21CSM on the back of this advert, a la 'Stiltskin', 'Babylon Zoo' etc... etc...? Why would they chose to play the song live otherwise after so long ? (other than the fact that it's a damn fine one (IMO)). Just idle speculation..... 'bye for now. rb London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:08:09 +0200 From: Jacek Czajka Subject: Weatherbox Hi crimsons, I`m looking for David Sylvian`s box - 'Weatherbox". Is somebody to help me where I will find this CD box. Best regards Jacek Czajka --- Jacek Czajka mailto:czajka at merkury dot atm dot com dot pl ATM Ltd. Netscape Communications Distribution Division ul. Grochowska 21a fax. +48 (22) 610 41 44 04-186 Warszawa, POLAND tel. +48 (22) 612 30 20 http://www.atm.com.pl ext.211 ------------------------------ From: Elsen Martin Subject: Sweet smell of success.... Date: Fri, 31 May 96 08:13:00 PDT Someone mentioned in a previous ET bulletin that they had heard KC on an advertisement ...... Well, I recall having heard "sex,sleep,eat,drink,dream" as the music to an advertisement for an anti-perspirant/deodorant product called Natrel, here in the UK....... Is this a metaphor ? ( KC = cool yet dry and fragrant ? ) Incidentally, while I am here..... Collaborations. Robert Fripp and The Blue Nile, perhaps ? Adios amoebas Martin Elsen elsenm at mwhse dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:04:14 +0200 (METDST) From: benh-s-a at sap dot ap-hop-paris dot fr (Amir Benhadji-Schaff) Subject: What's going on in France?????? Greetings from Paris! The European Tour has begun and there's no date for a show in Paris... :-( I went in two music shops of Paris (Virgin Megastore and FNAC (a famous shop in France)) and I was told that the release of THRaK aTTaCK in FRaNCE wasn't going to occure nor in may neither in june. In fact, they had no information about the date of release. So, does it mean that this record won't be released in France??!! If anyone in France or elsewhere could tell us more about this strange situation, it would be fine. I wish a nice show to the lucky ones in Europe and North America who will see the band performing again. :-) Bye. Amir. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:00:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Ashley Edward Collins Subject: Whining Just wanted to get a couple things off my chest. Feel free to stick a pacifier in my mouth at any time. I was a little dissappointed to hear that Crimso decided to include "Schizoid Man" in their set. I guess I can understand their doing it as a lark (pun definitely intended), but really, the thought of their performing older material . . . something about it just doesn't ring kosher. I guess I'm reminded of an interview I read with Van Halen in Rolling Stone years ago where Sammy Hagar mentioned he was dead set against performing "Jump" live just because a) the song had David Lee Roth written all over it and b) because if they performed too much older material, he felt like he was in a f***ing cover band. Performing older material, to me, sounds like the Crims are, God forbid my saying this, selling out. Even though I haven't been thoroughly impressed with the double trio lineup, I've still felt that Crimso was one of the few truly "progressive" bands, i.e. they don't live in the past. I don't have as much of a problem with their performing the '80s material, since that was essentially the same line-up, but the choice of performing "Red," "Larks' Tongues II," etc. seems almost like pandering. Yeah, I know, Fripp said they chose those pieces because they sounded like they could have been written when Discipline came out, but that was 15 years ago. They've got three albums worth of older material they could mine that featured 2/3 of the current line-up. The mid-'70s stuff was recorded by an almost completely different band, and the new line-up doesn't really add too much to it. And "Schizoid" was written by a TOTALLY different band! And I don't really buy into Fripp's assertion that Crimson is an entity, that the personnel don't matter, which could be used as a defense of this. But anyway, that's my two cents. I hope I haven't offended anyone's sensibilities, but it's just how I feel. The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire. Discuss. Ashley Collins aec200z at barbados dot cc dot odu dot edu ------------------------------ From: rfejgin at netvision dot net dot il Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 01:40:47 +0300 Organization: Tel Aviv University Subject: An "Island" CD sold with a "In the wake of Poseidon" cover and print ON the CD A few weeks ago I went to a local store which sells used CD's in order to purchase KC's "In the wake of Poseidon" album, which I did. On listening to the album I was surprised to find out that the lyrics printed on the cover were not those the vocalist was singing... After talking to a friend who owned a copy of this album too, it became apparant that I wasn't listeting to "ITWOP" at all. But it WAS a KC album - I knew that for sure. The amazing part was that the wrong song titles were printed on the CD itself too! I don't know all KC albums, so went through a few KC lyrics pages here at ET, and found out that the album RECORDED was probably "Islands". The album didn't seem to be pirated - at least the sound was good and the cover was identical to other copies I've compared it too. Does anyone know where this could've come from? Email me personally, as I don't regularly read ET. rfejgin at post dot tau dot ac dot il ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:15:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Psychic Zero Subject: Sylvian/Fripp LaserDisc Hi folks! Whaddaya know, first post to ET... I heard some fairly distressing news from Mark Perry at PossProd that David Sylvian is considering deleting the Sylvian/Fripp LD. I can only say Arghh! I'd love to buy it, but I'm unable to shell out the $68 Japanese import price. So, the pleading begins. I'm sure someone on this list has this disc. Could some kind soul make a videotape copy for me (NTSC, natch)? I'd be more than willing to compensate in kind.... Thanks for the indulgence, Jason NP: Radiophonics (sublime!) ----- jeller at unf dot edu Computing Services, University of North Florida Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE Airing on Digital Cable Radio channel 33 from the University of North Florida, Jacksonville Sunday nights from 8 to 12-ish Hosted by Jason Ellerbee Check http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html for playlists! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:46:35 +0200 From: "Mario A. Riggio" Subject: BRUFORD'S OFFICIAL DISCOGRAPHY Hi crimsoniacs, This is taken from Bruford's official Discography (made from Bill Bruford Productions Ldt.). SOLO ALBUMS FEELS GOOD TO ME 1978 ONE OF A KIND 1978 GRADUALLY GOING TORNADO 1979 THE BRUFORD TAPES 1980 MASTER STROKES 1978-1985 WITH YES (1968-1972, then 1990-1991) YES 1968 TIME AND A WORD 1969 YESTERDAYS 1969/1970 THE YES ALBUM 1971 FRAGILE 1972 CLOSE TO THE EDGE 1972 YESSONGS 1973 CLASSIC YES YESYEARS UNION 1991 YESSTORY HIGHLIGHTS SYMPHONIC MUSIC OF YES 1993 WITH KING CRIMSON LARK'S TONGUES IN ASPIC 1973 STARLESS AND BIBLE BLACK 1974 RED 1974 USA 1975 A YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON 1975 THE GREAT DECEIVER (1973-1974) DISCIPLINE 1981 BEAT 1982 THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR 1984 THE COMPACT KING CRIMSON 1987 FRAME BY FRAME 1991 THE CONCISE KING CRIMSON 1993 VROOOM 1994 THRAK 1995 B'BOOM 1995 WITH GENESIS (1975-76) SECONDS OUT 1977 THREE SIDES LIVE (1984-7) WITH UK (1978-79) UK 1978 WITH PATRICK MORAZ (1983-1984) MUSIC FOR PIANO AND DRUMS 1983 FLAGS 1984 WITH EARTHWORKS (dal 1987) BILL BRUFORD'S EARTHWORKS 1987 DIG? 1989 ALL HEAVEN BROKE LOOSE 1991 LIVE STAMPING GROUND 1994 WITH ABWH (1989-1990) ANDERSON BRUFORD WAKEMAN HOWE 1989 LIVE AT THE SHORELINE 1989 OTHER RELEASES RICK WAKEMAN, THE SIX WIVES OF HENRY VIII 1973 AL DI MEOLA, LAND OF THE MIDNIGHT SUN 1976 CHRIS SQUIRE, FISH OUT OF WATER 1977 ROY HARPER, H.Q. 1977 STEVE HOWE, BEGINNINGS 1978 ANNETTE PEACOCK, X-DREAMS 1978 THE NEW PERCUSSION GROUP OF AMSTERDAM, GO-BETWEEN 1985 DAVID TORN, CLOUD ABOUT MERCURY 1986 DAVID TORN, DOOR X 1987 STEVE HOWE, TURBULENCE 1988 KAZUMI WATANABE, SPICE OF LIFE 1988 KAZUMI WATANABE, SPICE OF LIFE TOO 1989 AL DI MEOLA, SCENARIO JAMAALADEEN TACUMA, RENAISSANCE MAN BUDDY RICH BAND, BURNING FOR BUDDY 1995 VIDEO BILL BRUFORD AND THE BEAT 1982 ANDERSON, BRUFORD, WAKEMAN, HOWE, IN THE BIG DEAM 1989 ANDERSON, BRUFORD, WAKEMAN, HOWE, AN EVENING OF A YES MUSIC PLUS 1989 BOOKS WHEN IN DOUBT, ROLL! Modern Drummer Publications, Inc. 1988 That's all! MARIO P.S.: Please visit the JPN (Jus Primae Noctis) home page. http://www.cis.it/labyrinth/soci/jpn/JPN.HTM JPN is a Crimson-inspired band from Genoa - Italy ------------------------------ From: Print_Future01%Douglas dot BC dot CA at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Improv vs. no improv Date: Fri, 31 May 96 18:51:28 PDT I've seen this "not enough improv" at a KC show thread tossed around here for a couple months. Personally I think the whole thing would be solved if Fripp and the boys were to play two nights at each venue, one given to songs and structure, the other given to improvisation and chaos. Anything could go at this show. I'm sure that would appease everybody. Song orientented Crimheads could go the first night, improv lovers the second. True Crimsonoids (Ahem) could go both nights. And they could offer discount rates for those going to both shows. Yeah. And maybe CGT could jam with KC...no wait! Get *all* the Guitar Crafters on stage for a musical melee! Or am I being unrealistic. Trent Ernst writer designer editor "I'm good. I'm humble. I'm better than you." --Steve Taylor "Smug" -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 03:17:29 UT From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: King Crimson is Life It's great to see so many Crimson fans. I've been a Crimson freak since the Greg Lake days and became stronger with the '80's version and even more invigorated with the "double trio." 1. Which is the greatest song ever written: Waiting Man or Dinosaur? 2. Why does Fripp sit in the shadows? Doesn't he realize that SEEING as well as hearing is why we go to a concert? 3. Can't KC announce to NOT clap during the break in Dinosaur? The (ignorant) crowd ruins the ferocious guitar solo by Fripp. 4. I asked Tony Levin (via his Web page) Q2 and Q3. He skirted the issue but was VERY nice about it. 5. Was that Mike Giles playing drums for Janis Joplin during the re-run of Dick Cavett's talk show the other night on VH-1? Bet it was. 6. I asked Bill Bruford: "What's Robert Fripp really like?" He said, quote: Odd, quite odd. 7. Some years later, I asked Adrian Belew: "What's Robert Fripp really like?" He said that RF likes sweets and that, during dinner/dessert, RF would ask AB, for example: "Are you going to finish that eclair? 8. I've listened to Waiting Man and B'Boom about a thousand times. 9. Why doesn't everyone love Beat, like I do? 10. I live for Crimson. Take Care Everyone. Dan Wasser Gaithersburg, Maryland USA ------------------------------ From: Silvio Pereira Subject: KC Europe Concerts Tickets Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 03:57:36 -0300 I have never been to a KC concert (and I have been listening them for = about 20 years...) and I want to know if anyone can tell me how to buy a = pair of tickets to any concert at Europe or USA in June/July. I live in = Brazil and I will travel only for the purpose of seeing the concerts (of = course they can be more than one) and because of this I have to be = certain about the tickets. Can anyone help me? ------------------------------ From: leslabb at prolog dot net Date: Fri, 31 May 96 23:45:28 -0500 Subject: Earthbound A Bootleg? I have read several posts where it has been mentioned that EARTHBOUND was a bootleg recording and Mr. Fripp deleted it because of poor quality, or something to that nature. However I have a copy of EB, vinyl, that is black with silver lettering. It is on Island records and has an E.G. music copyright on it. It seems very legitimate to me. Was EB really a bootleg? Just curious. Looking forward to THRAKING this summer. Les Labbauf Email: leslabb at prolog dot net There is a fun and easy to use fixpack for WIN95, it's called OS/2 Warp http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ From: Joseph J Nuttall Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 13:45:28 BST Subject: Elephant Talk Posting Hi, this is my first posting for Elephant Talk, I've really benefitted from reading it this last year or so. Just bought THRaK aTTaK so here are my thoughts.... The first time I heard the new lineup (first ten seconds or so of the VROOM CD) I absolutely loved it, but I hated Thrak. Then I saw them live and Thrak was interesting. Then I bought THRaK aTTaK (despite some misqivings on my part) and I find I keep on having to put it on to listen to it again. I'm still not quite sure what I think of it but I do know that I'll get my moneys worth out of the CD whilst my brain tries to understand it. I think a necessary part of understanding Crimson is to see them perform live, my wife just didn't understand 80's Crimson at all until she saw them perform some of that material at the Albert Hall. (First time either of us had seen them live as I'm only 24). This view of mine that Crimson has to be seen live to be really understood (ans thus I'm asking Eric Tamm to see them live in order to reappraise his views in his Fripp book) is supported by the editorial of 'Guitar' magazine March 1996 which perfectly describes this conversion from non-believer to Crim-head from watching the gig. I thought previously that some Crimson was a bit 'cerebral' (e.g. the track Discipline), then in a flash at the concert I understood it all.... Crimson just make damn good music! Sorry for the rambling, Joe Nuttall (jjn at maths dot qmw dot ac dot uk) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:58:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Salvatore Pichireddu Subject: Waiting for KC at Cologne, Germany Hi folks, uh, I can't wait for next Sunday until KC are going to play in my hometown Cologne. It'll be an open-air-act, I hope that the weather will be better than it is now :-(. It will be my first KC Concert, although I'm a fan for 15 years... well, I glad to see them finally :-). What about merchandising? Are there any cool T-Shirts et al. aviable?? I wonder about the expression of my friends, when they'll see me for the first time in my "KC T-Shirt", asking me: "Who or what is King Crimson?" Well, actually, I don't bother being member of a "small community" of fans. Although most of the people I know dislike KC (maybe I should change friends ;-)), I'm always astonished about the massive influence KC had (and has) on contemporary music. In a certain way, a little Crimsonhead is in (almost) every listener... Hope 2 CU in Cologne on Sunday -- Ciao :-) *SAL* eMail: a1819801 at smail dot rrz dot uni-koeln dot de / sal dot pichireddu at k dot cybercity dot de "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 10:59:54 +0000 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering Laboratory Subject: Robert's sister and ten seconds Hi there Some of you may know that Robert has a sister, named Patricia Fripp. She has been mentioned in various occassion here on the list. I however found out today who she is and what she does. I encourage you all to visit here home page, there is a lot of Frippism there. The address: http://www.fripp.com ------- I just got the album "Ten Seconds" with Bill Forth. Fripp plays a lot here and there is more Fripp guitar sound to be heard here then in the double trio KC albums. This album can be recommended for all die hard Fripp fans who love to hear his screaming guitar yet again. The music is powerful, a little on the heavy metal side at time but driven by powerful bass and drum part that can be compared to to the Ppower KC in '74. Orn -- ************************************************************* * ORN ORRASON - Communication Engineer - Univ. Iceland * * Systems Eng. Lab - Broadband Network Research group * * T +354 525 4699 F ++525 4937 mailto:ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is * ************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: 96-06-02 06:14:56 EDT From: user at cafenet dot co dot uk (username) Hello all ELEFANS! We here at "PROGRESS" magazine are interested to receive messages from KING CRIMSON enthusiasts regarding the current tour of Europe! The most interesting will be published in our "dead tree" magazine - sorry for environmentalists, but not everybody has Internet access, just yet! Anybody preferring not to be quoted, please say so - our reviewers are still interested to read your comments! What do ELEFANS think of the newly released "THRaKaTTaK" CD? We also welcome comments about the "Progressive" label sometimes given to music by bands such as CRIMSON, YES, ELP, GENTLE GIANT and so on. (Maybe you saw our previous posting?) Proving the power of "ELEPHANT TALK", we have received a couple of fascinating "quotable comments" for publication in "PROGRESS". GARY DAVIS in the U.S. essentially agrees with ROBERT FRIPP that it's not a good idea to label CRIMSO music as "Progressive"...and MARK A. LUEDI says "what does it matter?!" More comments welcome from ELEFANS around the world. Please also invite friends without Internet access - our terrestrial address is : "PROGRESS" Magazine, THE PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY, P.O. Box 310, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5WH, England. Best regards to KING CRIMSON supporters around the world, Tiz Hay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:28:25 +0100 From: e dot mayall at ic dot ac dot uk Subject: 21csm, ssedd, sbe ET, I thought 21st Century Schizoid Man accompanied Pirelli tyres, not Dunlop, but I'm prepared to admit that I'm mistaken. Indeed I've just been told that I am - it is Dunlop. Anyway it's obviously a pretty expensive advert - very arty and surreal - but the style has been around for a while. Previously the music was The Velvet's Venus in Furs. My sister-in-law (whose taste is normally Ant'n'Dec, D:ream, and at a push Simply Red) wondered when this new (!) music was going to be out as a single. Around a year ago Sex, sleep, eat, drink, dream was used in a TV ad for Natrel Plus Deodorant. This probably has no relevance, but I can imagine the Shepherd's Bush Empire getting pretty steamy at the end of this month, so buy your Natrel now. They obviously have better taste than some advertisers. On the Empire subject, I seem to have a spare ticket for the 30th June gig, which I would like to see go to a good home. Downstairs standing. Face value (plus booking fee I'm afraid). May be prepared to swop for 1st July similar ticket. e.mail to e dot mayall at ic dot ac dot uk. Any Dinosaurs already with tickets care to meet up pre-gig? And yes, my e.mail address is a constant source of amusement. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:14:58 -0400 From: ASFSeattle at aol dot com Subject: UK Repost I was hoping some of the kind ET'ers in the know could re-post info provided recently about the reformation of UK rumored to include Bruford, Wetton, Fripp. Can not locate in my archives. Personal replies please. Thanks Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:15:01 -0400 From: ASFSeattle at aol dot com Subject: KC - Greek Theater - Tix? Would appreciate if someone on the Bay Area could reply directly to me with info about ticket availability (tele # for ticket svc) for upcoming Greek Theater show. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matt ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1996 12:35:24 -0600 From: "John Ott" Subject: KC at Merriweather Post Pav KC at Merriweather Post Pavillion I just checked the Merriweather Post home page (http://www.charm.net/~concerts) and tickets for the Aug 25 show go on sale Thursday June 6 at 10:00am via protix. For protix locations and ordering info check out http://www.protix.com Merriweather Post Pavillion is north of DC and west of Baltimore in Columbia MD. see ya at the show! john ------------------------------ From: address at nlic2 dot questint dot com Subject: Bruford/No-Man I notice that in recent issues of "Elephant Talk" people have been posting in stuff about Bill Bruford's Earthworks. I'm surprised it took them this long to discover the band. I've been a fan of Earthworks and related projects for some time now (although I've never seen them live, worse luck!). Here's some more information for those who are curious about them. My understanding, based on a "Modern Drummer" interview Bill gave last year, is that Earthworks are "parked" rather than "hung up"--hopefully the former is the case, as it suggests that the band are likely to be started up again some time in the future. Given that one of the main reasons for Bill doing his albums and tours with Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe and the eight-man Yes "Union" line-up was to earn enough money to keep Earthworks going, I'd suggest that Bill will probably return to Earthworks during Crimson layoff time, while Adrian plugs and tours "On", Robert and Trey go off and do various Soundscapey and crafty things, Tony finishes off that second solo album he's apparently recorded on a lake in a cave in Woodstock, and Pat does whatever it is that Pat does. Given the fact that Earthworks have produced some of the best music of Bill's career--which is saying a lot--it seems unthinkable that the band should just be thrown off like an old jacket. Future Earthworks activity does, I guess, depend on the activities of the other three members. I don't know what bassist Tim Harries does elsewhere (the only other thing I've heard of him doing was working with Bill on the "Symphonic Music Of Yes" album), but certainly sax player Iain Ballamy and most particularly keyboard/horn player Django Bates have other projects going. Ballamy has two albums out under his own name: "Balloon Man" on EG and "All Men Amen" on Virgin. Both are quite luscious modern British jazz, drawing on unexpected traditions as well as the old Coltrane/Davis/Parker methods. He has a quartet that plays around Britain and Europe in small venues and at festivals. The activities of Bates, though, are considerably more extensive. Without dipping into his list of sideman credits, here's a brief rundown. Both he and Ballamy played in the massive jazz orchestra Loose Tubes (for which Bates did most of the composing), which had three joyfully anarchic albums out on Virgin in the 1980s ("Loose Tubes", "Delightful Precipice" and "Open Letter"). Currently he has two main bands, the eighteen-piece jazz orchestra Delightful Precipice and the four-piece Human Chain, both featuring Ballamy. I've seen both bands in concert in various London venues and they are flat-out STUNNING: truly modern, exciting, electro-acoustic progressive jazz that absorbs tradition without either succumbing to it or vandalising it and breaks new ground all the time. A crude analogy would be to compare the difference between blues-rock and progressive rock, without the attendant preposterousness. Bates deserves the title of genius as least as much as any other of the musicians lavished with praise in ET, and if you pay close attention to the writing credits on Earthworks albums, in no way is he just a sideman for B ill. I've also seen Human Chain participating in brilliant theatre work, and hear that Delightful Precipice have worked with circuses. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Bates has had five of his own albums out. The first, "Music For The Third Policeman", is difficult to track down, but the other four are readily available. Three are on the Virgin-affiliated JMT label: "Summer Fruits (And Unrest)" and "Winter Truce (And Homes Blaze)", which feature both Delightful Precipice and Human Chain, and "Autumn Fires (And Green Shoots)" which is Bates playing solo piano. Last month, he brought out "Good Evening...Here Is The News" on Argo/Decca Records, which was a real mixture: Human Chain were involved, but so were the London Sinfonietta, Norwegian folk-jazz singer Sidsel Endresen, the Smith Quartet and the Apollo Saxophone Quartet. Some of the dazzling jazz/contemporary classical work that resulted just has to be heard to believed (although if you do buy the album, skip "Headless Chickens". You have been warned). Sorry to be so gushy, but I'd hate to think of ET-ers missing out on this music. The records are great but if you really want to see something exceptional, go to the concerts. This is music that jump-starts your brain and sends you home walking ten miles high. All without illegal pharmaceuticals. For all you record hunters, here are catalogue numbers for Django Bates: "Summer Fruits (And Unrest)"--JMT PRODUCTIONS, JMT 514 008-2; "Autumn Fires (And Green Shoots)"--JMT PRODUCTIONS, JMT 514 014-2; "Winter Truce (And Homes Blaze)"--JMT PRODUCTIONS, JMT 514 023-2; "Good Evening...Here Is The News"--ARGO/DECCA, 452 099-2. Catalogue number for Iain Ballamy's "Balloon Man"-- EDITIONS EG, EEGCD 63. Sorry, I don't have "All Men Amen" so can't offer you the catalogue number. Anyone else out there know it? Since no-one seems to be adding any further comments on Fripp's collaboration with No-Man, I thought I'd do so myself. Barrie Sillar's posting a while back mentioned Robert's contribution to No-Man's "Flowermouth" album (guitar solos on "Angel Gets Caught In The Beauty Trap" "Animal Ghost" and "Teardrop Fall"; Soundscapes on "Angel Gets Caught...", "Shell Of A Fighter" "Simple" and "Things Change"; skysaw on "Simple"; and some extra guitar on "Shell..."), as well as Mel Collin's sax on "Angel Gets Caught..." and his flute on "Animal Ghost" and "Teardrop Fall". I'd like to reiterate Barrie's points and say that some of Robert's work on these songs are among his finest ever guest contributions. The "rending viola" passage on "Animal Ghost" comes particularly to mind, as does the solo on "Angel Gets Caught...". The latter is in effect part of a marvellous jazz-inluenced trio segue, as first Ian Carr's reedy trumpet, then Mel's leaping soprano sax and finally Robert's lyrical string-drone flow seamlessly into each other. Robert and Mel's playing, in particular, seem like different tones sung by the same voice. If any of you have bought and enjoyed "Flowermouth" you should also know that more Crimsonic work from the "Flowermouth" sessions has resurfaced on subsequent No-Man releases. Their 1995 CD "Flowermix" is an album of remixes in the dance/ambient/experimental vein by No-Man's Steven Wilson and others, mostly revisiting "Flowermouth". Both Robert and Mel feature heavily. Mel's sax becomes a leading presence on "Angeldust" (the ambient remix of "Angel Gets Caught...", much more a lone exploratory voice in the tradition of Jan Garbarek or John Coltrane. "Why The Noise" reinvents "Teardrop Fall": most of the original instrumentation is gone, with the exception of Mel's flute. This is liberated from the Erasure-ish arrangement of the original to manifest itself as piercingly beautiful--one of the best Mel solos I've ever heard, and incredibly spontaneous (Tim Bowness, No-Man's singer, said of Mel once "He responds immediately, which is a rare talent, and 90% of what he gives you is usable"). There's also a few beautiful seconds of Mel on his own as a hidden track at the end of the CD! Robert's "Angel Gets Caught..." solo reappears in "Angeldust", where it becomes ghostly as opposed to classically sedate. His Soundscapes are remixed into "Angeldust", "Sample" (a trance remix of "Simple"), and imported into "Heal The Madness" (a drastic remix of a US No-Man single called "Taking It Like A Man"), where they become an even more integrated part of the sustained textures. For my money, though, the best Fripp contribution is on "Born Simple". This takes the full 12-minute Soundscapes improvisation used on "Simple" and melds them with a Steven Wilson drum heartbeat and ambient chill. It's one of the best uses of Soundscapes I've heard on record to date--not melodic as such, but it has eldritch harmonies that sort of creep up on you...It's like seeing the inside of a pitch-black cave light up really, really slowly only to reveal the sort of cave-painting you wouldn't want to see in your worst nightmare. And if this wasn't enough, Robert's also on the brand-new No-Man EP "Housewives Hooked On Heroin". An (uncredited) few seconds of Soundscapes on "Urban Disco", and a much fuller Soundscape contribution on a limpid ballad called "Where I'm Calling From" which has hints of the "Exposure" version of "Here Comes The Flood". Tim Bowness has mentioned recently that he'd love to work with Fripp on a full project. Given Tim's preoccupations, this could result in an album of avant-garde Soundscape ballads (a sort of '90s follow-up to "Sacred Songs", perhaps?), or a weird collection of eclectic textures, samples and text fragments with a Crimsonic edge. Sounds good to me--how about it, Robert? Those of us who regularly check in at the No-Man Website would love to see some more of you Elephant Talkers checking in too and expanding the No-Man discussion area, "The Burning Shed". When we look over at the debates raging in "Elephant Talk" we get jealous (even when people are just arguing about their stereos). Come on, there's a link in the "ET" site--drop in and have a chat! In the meantime, I notice that Robert has also been playing with Future Sound Of London and plastering Soundscapes all over the new album by The Beloved, "X". What with this and the No-Man work, what do people make of all of these Frippy collaborations with younger artists? How effective are they? And, given that FSOL basically just sampled bits of the session Robert did for them and mixed it in as another sound...how valid are they as a bona-fide collaboration? Moving on to more familiar subjects now, as this is actually my first ET posting. Do people know that Gordon Haskell is now out and about, playing all over the place in little venues in England? I saw him play in a little acoustic club in London--fantastically lively and earthy songs (one of which he devoted to Robert Fripp) which bring to mind Richard Thompson, John Lee Hooker, John Martyn, Leon Redbone, and Ian Anderson. I had a chat with him too--lovely feller. He played some gigs with Mel Collins last year. There should be a new album out this year, maybe called "One Step Ahead Of The Shoe-Shine", possibly on Resurgence Records, and which Gordon describes as his own "After the Goldrush". Has anyone else seen Gordon play recently? Sylvian and Fripp. "Damage" is immeasurably superior to "The First Day", which to my ears was interesting but unlovable--Fripp aridity meets Sylvian droning. The live album did what live albums should do: it brought the material to life. It also added a welcome dose of the softer Soundscape balladry they left off the original album and offered a glimpse at the variety of material they could come up with, rather than the gloomy sub-art-metal that made up most of "The First Day". I've heard rumours that the Sylvian/Fripp partnership has now been permanently severed! Apparently an ambient duo album was recorded for release, but foundered when Sylvian got on his high horse and demanded lots of money from Fripp for the privilege of being allowed to work with him. Whereupon Fripp erased all of Sylvian's contributions from the album and declared he'd put it out as a solo release, and also that he had no intention of ever working with Sylvian again. Can anyone else throw some light on the truth of this story? It doesn't seem unlikely, given Sylvian's prior reputation for high-handedness. David Torn is another musician who's suffered from "The Shaman"'s attitude, and the Rain Tree Crow debacle is another case in point. The worth of the Double Trio...this is something that's been bugging me ever since the release of "VROOOM". The idea of reuniting the "Discipline" foursome with the addition of the "Damage" rhythm section was a little worrying at the start anyway. It did smack of playing safe (despite Robert's withering response to those who have suggested otherwise), but at least it did utilise three of the most consistently strong and creative Crimsoneers (Levin, Bruford, Belew). It was also the closest Robert's ever come to a backwards step; previously, only the abortive return of Ian McDonald for the never-happened "Red" tour or the recruitment of Bruford for the Discipline suggested any sort of return to known qualities (compare the various Yes/Caravan reunions for examples of how Crimson has always been forward-looking, genuinely progressive). The best part of two years on, including three albums and two Albert Hall gigs, and I still have mixed feelings. The good points? (1) A roaring taste for Crimsonic mayhem as evidenced in "When I Say Stop, Continue" and the multiple versions of "THRAK". (2) A dabble in rap territory with "Cage". (3) The odd excellent, unmistakeably Crimsonic song ("One Time"), memorable, vulnerable, simple but complex. (4) A huge savage electric sound, an overpowering response to grunge and heavy metal. (5) Band members who actually seem to like each other (Bruford/Fripp tension notwithstanding). (6) The ability to breathe new life into "Elephant Talk" and "Indiscipline". I LIKE IT! (7) Some further explorations of texture (upright bass, Soundscapes, "THRAK" noise-sculpture). (8) A massive potential they've hardly begun to explore. (9) Well, it's just great to have them back! The bad points? (1) A comeback album ("THRAK") with no concrete identity and a botched sound mix, which sounds more like half an album's worth of group material plus half an album's worth of off-cuts from Belew solo/Fripp Soundscapes and an unnecessary salvaging of leftover "Red" riffs ("VROOOM VROOOM"). Plus the fact that we'd heard most of the good stuff before in better versions on "VROOOM", which leads us to... (2) Three albums with virtually identical material, with a fourth on the way. Improvisers they may be, but they're not Ellington, Coltrane, or Davis. New material please, not a million bludgeoning versions of "THRAK" and "VROOOM". (3) Adrian Belew applying his admittedly very accomplished Beatles fetish to the Crimson oeuvre. "Walking On Air" and "People" are nice songs, well played, but they have nothing to do with the Crimsonic legacy: past, present or future. Save them for the solo records. (4) A sound generated by six men that most of the time sounds as if it's being delivered by a thoroughly distorted and effected four, like "Discipline" sets through the world's biggest pedalboard. (5) A tendency to play the more song-based Crimson material as if their feet are mired in concrete--viz the lumpen versions of "Heartbeat", "Sleepless", "One Time" and "Frame By Frame" on "B'Boom" and at the Albert Hall gigs last year. Part of the thrill of the "Discipline"-era songs is how tight they are. The Double Trio proved they can do pin-sharp pocket playing on "People"--why not on the better songs that both need and deserve it? (6) Technology that's woefully underused or ill-applied, with the honourable exception of Soundscapes. Let's get some more differentation on those Levin and Gunn sounds, men--when they're both playing Stick or Warr Guitar you can't tell them apart. And has anyone noticed how much less interesting Belew's sounds are since he started using MIDI? Overall, the Double Trio is a very powerful band, but one that all too often refuses to fulfil its huge potential. They're coasting too much, too content to revisit past territory or the terrains of Belew's personal fandom or Fripp's solitary "small, mobile, intelligent unit" work. They just haven't pulled together yet, and as a result we're seeing a loose collation of the influences and ideas that shape the current Crimson without seeing Crimson itself. I'm prepared to put some of this down to the fact that they've just resuscitated the great Crimson organism and are coming to terms with the fact that now they all genuinely enjoy it--for the first time it's actually fun to be in Crimson as well as stimulating, and you don't have to wait for five years for the memories to become good ones. But...it's two years on now--time to stop coasting and really stretch out. One thing's inescapable--for the first time ever with a new line-up, King Crimson are not on the cutting edge. And they should be. Finally, alternative Crimson lineups. I don't think a lineup that included Sylvian would be much fun. He doesn't have the voice for the savager or more soaring Crimson material. Tim Bowness--that man again!--suggested recently that a hypothetically ideal Crimson lineup for 1994 would have been something like Fripp/Levin/Bruford plus two completely new members: the DJ/programmer and the rapper from Bristol trip-hop project Earthling (some of you may remember Tim's letter to Fripp on a similar subject, which is printed on page 48 of the booklet to "The Great Deceiver"). Maybe a 90s Crimson lineup should incorporate at least a partial aspect of the sense of space, rhythm, and texturology that has been bequeathed to us by the 90s dance/sample culture, given a more cohesive, structured and forceful form by the Fripp brain. With the Double Trio, elements of that approach are still possible assuming that they allow themselves the flexibility of considering it, and work out ways of using their current battery of te chnology to achieve it. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:47:20 GMT From: Andrew Corradino Subject: Relatively New Fan Hello there- I've been a King Crimson fan for a relatively short time - only since December '95. I've been a Rush and Yes fan for years, and somebody told me that King Crimson would be right up my alley. I bought "The Compact King Crimson" blindly, and was immediately blown away! I have been hooked ever since. Now for the main reason behind my mail; I bought tickets last night for the show at the Greek Theater in LA on July 27, and I was wondering what to expect. I'm sure that they will be spectacular, but I have heard that they refuse to play anything more than a couple years old. I like the new stuff, also, but my favorite album is still "Larks' Tongues in Aspic," and to me any song off that album would highlight the concert. I've also heard rumors that some nights they won't even play their songs, but rather improvise the whole set. I just wanted to know what to be prepared for. Andrew Corradino University of California, Irvine P.S. This has probably been asked 10,000 times, but I can't find the answer anywhere; What language do the phrases "Thela Hun Gingeet" and "Matte Kudasai" come from, and what do they mean in that language? ------------------------------ From: dominik at rekonix dot cz, lemenda at rekonix dot cz, "Jan)"@rekonix.cz Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 8:30:56 VEC Hello ETers from Czech Republic, I wish to know if there is anybody from Czech Republic on the list. In spite of Palace of Culture venue I would like to gather members of the list on 17th June for a brief encounter. People from the neighboring countries are welcome as well. E-mail me at "dominik at rekonix dot cz" Cheers, DOMINIC VIVALDO %UEND ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:27:40 -0400 From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Yeah, but what about Belew's vocals??? >> The last 6 were however the highlight of the show. Yes you read it: THEY DID SCHIZOID MAN, and it fitted perfectly between Indiscipline and Vrooom. What can I say, it was the moment of the night when AB said "This song has not been performed in 22 years!!". They played it as wild as you can imagine. Evrybody was going crazy, it was superb. Okay. I'm pumped and can't wipe the smile off my face while imagining it. But how were Belew's vocals??? Did he scream it and spit it? Did it work vocally? Inquiring minds want to know. Anyone with tapes from this segment, let me know. We can trade. Arnie Schulberg ASchulberg at aol dot com ------------------------------ From: I\qesta Quereda Jose Manuel Subject: I saw the king yesterday!!! Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:17:53 +0200 (METDST) Hello!! Yes, I did! I attended to the gig in Murcia (Spain) last saturday, in the first concert of the european Thrakattak tour. I'm still excited! I prefer to avoid adjectives, I don't need to discover anything to you suscribers, so I think that probably the best is to tell you the playing list. Here it is: Intro (Bruford & Masteloto) Thela Hunt Gingeet Red Frame by Frame Dinosaur One Time Waiting Man Vroom Frippertronics (Fripp solo) B'Boom (drum solos) Neurotica 3 of a perfect pair Mate Kudasai Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream Elephant Talk Indiscipline And they went out. The crowd roared asking for more and they came back. Adrian thanks everyone and says that "It's been 22 years since the next song was played live for the last time", and.... 21st century schizoid man And the second encore: Walking on air Lark Tonges in Aspic II And somebody told me about the other concert in Spain that the list had some variations: Lark Tonges in Aspic II Frame by Frame Dinosaur Red Frippertronics (Fripp solo) B'Boom (drum solos) Thrak Waiting Man Indiscipline The sheltering Sky People Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream Elephant Talk ---1st--- 21st century schizoid man ---2nd--- Mate Kudasay Vroom Amazing, isn't it! Any comments? /-----------------------------\ /------------------------------\ | Jose M. Inesta D-413 | e-mail: inesta at inf dot uji dot es | | Departamento de Informatica | http://www3.uji.es/~inesta | | Universitat Jaume I | Tfn...: +34-64-345701 | | E-12071 Castellon (SPAIN) | Fax...: +34-64-345848 | \-----------------------------/ \------------------------------/ ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #280 ********************************