Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: discipline #28 discipline, Number 28 Friday, 13 March 1992 Today's Topics: Discipline submission -- Adrian Belew and 'Inner Revolution.' 17/8 time Satori in Tangier Discipline #27 A FAQ? NEW ASIA! (Yecch) Re: lineups/new KC Beat Criteria Re: discipline #27 Re: Let the Power Fall Lyrics New Crimson info satori in tangier Let the Power Fall Fripp book biblio data Let_The_Power_Fall Re: The Court of the Crimson King KC/Fripp Discography Crimson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Mar 92 18:56:40 -0800 From: Academic Fraud Subject: Discipline submission -- Adrian Belew and 'Inner Revolution.' Opinion shayl follow. I was heartilly disappointed with Adrian's new album, 'Inner Revolution.' Particularly with the conspicuous label on the cover mentioning his innovative guitar style, I expected some innovative guitar...what I hear when I listen to this album is a retrograde 60's cover with a few quirky guitar solos and some of the least interesting lyrics I have seen in a long time. Very disturbing. It is a wholly commercial album, almost the music industry's response to a large base of fans who need an 'artistic' album: a relatively spineless album with injections of art. Rather than being completely negative on one of my favorite artists, I would rather be mostly negative and reissue some positive reccomendations on Belew material. His first three albums, 'The Lone Rhino,' 'Twang Bar King,' and 'Desire Caught by the Tail,' are all excellent albums, some of my favorites in the general rock genre. Particularly 'Desire' is a very sophisticated musical work, breaming with innovation and character...not so with 'Inner Revolution.' Opinions end here. -elba [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Mar 92 09:50:52 MST From: pmartz at dsd dot es dot com (Paul Martz) Subject: 17/8 time Sorry for the length of this, but I though King Crimson fans might find it interesting. Jeremy Weissenburger <07822 at brahms dot udel dot edu> (Captain Apathy) sez: > For example, when auditions were done for a bassist for the '80's Crimso, > they were required to play a bass riff in 17/8!! Those musicians out there > no that this could be a real bitch!! It was enough to "separate the men from > the boys." For those of you who aren't musicians, let me explain enough about music theory to let you be truly terrorized of a 17/8 time signature... First, the easy stuff: The bottom number, the "8", stands for eighth notes. It is somewhat irrelevant, it could be 4, or 2, or 16; the music would be just as difficult to play. It just indicates that beats are represented by eighth notes. The top number, "17", stands for the number of beats in the "measure" (a concuptual unit of the music). 17/8 time means there are 17 beats (which happen to be eighth notes) in each measure of the music. Since the bottom number is generally unimportant, this could be called "in 17 time". The most common time signature in rock music is 4/4 (four quarter note beats per measure, or "in 4"). Waltzes are generally written in 3/4 ("in 3"). King Crimson, and Fripp in general, play lots of music in 5, and also in 7. When a musician plays something in five, which is a somewhat difficult grouping, he conceptually breaks it up into a group of 2 and a group of 3. So instead of counting "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" while playing, he might instead count "1, 2, 1, 2, 3". By the same logic, music in 7 could be broken down into a group of 3 and a group of 4. How the measure breaks down will depend on the "feel" of the music. Music in 17 could be broken down several ways depending on the music's intended feel. One breakdown which immediately comes to mind would be two groups of 7 and a group of 3. It could also be four groups of 4 and a group of 1. It could be a group of 7 and two groups of 5. In any event, it would be a complex grouping, somewhat difficult to keep track of, but could nonetheless be mastered with enough practice. While times of 4 and times of 3 seem most natural to us, there are cultures throughout the world in which times of 5, 7, and 13 are just as natural in their music. There is nothing inherently easier about 4 time than about 17 time; it simply depends on what music you grow up listening to, or how much you want to practice to overcome you assumptions about beat groupings. -paul pmartz at dsd dot es dot com Evans & Sutherland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Mar 92 09:19:33 MST From: pmartz at dsd dot es dot com (Paul Martz) Subject: Satori in Tangier MERLIN at AC dot DAL dot ca (troy Jollimore) sez: > > In the song "Neal and Jack and Me", Neal is Neal Cassady and Jack is Jack > Kerouac, two famous members of the Beat movement. The "Studebaker Coupe" is > presumably a car in "On the Road" or some other such work. Following such > logic, it seems natural to assume that "The Howler" refers to Ginsberg's > "Howl"; while my friend is convinced that "Satori in Tangier" is also some > sort of oblique Beat reference. Can anyone confirm? Maybe it has something to do with William Burrough's "Naked Lunch"? I'm not sure, it's been too long since I've read that book. I remember alot of it takes place in Africa. And I also know that Burroughs was "in" with the Ginsberg-type crowd. -paul pmartz at dsd dot es dot com Evans & Sutherland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1992 22:59:04 -0500 From: Jeremy Weissenburger <07822 at brahms dot udel dot edu> Subject: Discipline #27 Greetings. It is Capt. Apathy here once again! I wish to talk about last issue: 1) To Rob Petrone who asked why the Crimso I,II, and III don't jive with the family tree. The answer seems very simple. You see, Crimso was in such a state of flux in many of those line-ups, that it's just easier to group many of them together. Also, the music that was played for each group is similar, not in style, but in the idea that so many people can contribute to one album effectively. (I'm basically talking about Crimso I, here) 2) About Exposure (indirectly related to Discipline i.e. "Network"), does anyone have a clue as to who plays on what tracks? I mean, the insert gives the list of contributing artists, but doesn't bother to mention who played on what. And lastly, I know that this past Monday ELP was on the national radio show Rockline. (For those of you who can't read a calendar, that was March 2.) I was wondering if anyone caught this show, and if anyone had taped it. Assistance in this would be greatly appreciated. --Captain Apathy "He wore tight green leotards, but we'l forgive him." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Mar 92 22:00:37 EST From: Bobby Dredd Subject: A FAQ? Who is that talking on "Thela Hun Ginjeet"? Is the story for real? ---Bobby Dredd aka Marc Pelath ^^^^^^^^^^^ well okay this is actually my real name [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: NEW ASIA! (Yecch) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 92 20:28:07 EST Yes folks, that's right, those purveyors of progressive pop banality -- ASIA -- are back with a brand spanking new album! What's it called? "We're old and fat and don't care who knows it"? "None of us can make decent music, but we're contracted for 200 more albums"? "Hi! I'm John Wetton, I used to be a great bass player and lyricist, but have since had a lobotomy"? No, no, no.... all of this is sheer rumour... The new Asia album is shockingly titled "AQUA" in the tradition of previous Asia "albums": Asia, Astra, Alpha, Annoying, Ack and Atrocious.. It's released in Europe *ONLY* through essential/castle communications records. No North American release is scheduled. Would someone just shoot these guys and put them out of their misery? After that **horrific** live album and compilation, you think they'd have the decency to call it quits. Viva King Crimson! Anil Prasad wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: rjp1 at ihburn dot att dot com Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 13:26 CST Subject: Re: lineups/new KC It's been a while since I posted here. I tend to think of KC (King Crimson- not KC and his Sunshine Band! :^) as having 3 major incarnations. The first lineup had Fripp and Sinfield as the main people, the second lineup had Fripp, Bruford, and Whetton(sp?), and the third lineup had Fripp, Bruford, Levin, Belew. There will be a fourth soon. Not to cause any commotion, but my sister received a letter >from Fripp last fall in which he more or less said to be on the lookout for a new King Crimson soon! My sister has attended the Guitar Craft seminars for a couple of years. Robert, as he prefers to be called, is quite a funny character from what I've heard. I've noticed some Beat bashing... Hey, I for one, like this album. I find it equal if not better than Discipline. Perfect Pair, on the other hand, I would like much better if it had LESS vocals on it, but I enjoy the instrumental songs a lot. Dig It is the only vocal track on Pair that I will put on tape for repeated listening. ) /Let the Power Fall/, on the other hand, was an attrocious piece of work. ) I don't know the exact date it came out, because I gave it away to someone. I'm not a big fan of this one either. I quite liked No Pussyfooting and Evening Star, but after that, well, you can only do so much with that kind or style of music before you want to do something else. When I saw KC in concert in 1973 (Larks' Tongue tour) the entire song of The Heavenly Music Corporation from No Pussyfooting was played before and after the show! Fripp wore all black, played a black guitar, a black keyboard, and sat on a black stool with dim (black?) lights on him. David Cross was on the other side of the stage and he wore all white, had a white violin and keyboard, and had bright (white?) lights. Bruford was in the back and Whetton up front between Fripp and Cross. It was an excellent concert... ) Okay, now to clear up a question of mine. Thanks to those who responded to ) my question about what Crimson I, II, and III were, but how come it doesn't ) jive with the family tree in the boxed set? The family tree shows about ) *6* different Crimson lineups! What's the deal? The early band had new members on practically all of their albums, the only two "main" musicians were Fripp and Sinfield. Perhaps they count the lineup for Earthbound and USA as separate? I have the Plimpton 1969 concert on cd, which for the sake of argument, sounds different than what was to come so that too could be another lineup. And what about the Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles and Fripp? I've seen the cd but the $24 price tag has kept me at bay. I have another album by GG&F and couldn't really get into it too much. -- Bob Pietkivitch | "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above." rjp1 at ihburn dot att dot com | -- Genesis, Stagnation [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: glenn at clsi dot uucp (Glenn Boysko) Subject: Beat Criteria Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 10:26:25 EDT Hello All: I just wanted to stand up in protest against the harsh complaints against the Beat album. I've been a King Crimson fan for a while and even a bigger Bill Bruford fan (being a drummer also). I'm just surprised at all the negative comments against the album. I feel that Beat is certainly different from Discipline, but has merits that Discipline doesn't have. In general the Beat album seems so much more musically "colorful"--the moods, melodies and rhythms seem so much more diverse from the Discipline album. "Satori in Tangiers" seems to use so many different sound sources that I can almost envision a story be told through the music. I really enjoyed Beat for its diversity of sounds and rhythms ("The Waiting Man" is one of my favorites). I was wondering what criteria Crimson fans used to evaluate the album... -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Glenn Boysko uunet!clsi.com!glenn Cad Language Systems, Inc. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Henry_Burdett_Messenger at cup dot portal dot com Subject: Re: discipline #27 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 13:24:28 PST In "Discipline #27" Rob Petrone writes: > Well, /Network/, apparently, is a compilation album of Fripp's stuff. that > came out in 1987. It's got a remake of "Here Comes the Flood" with pg on > vox, and a nice little intro called "Water Music II" (or something to that > effect) added onto the beginning with the voice of J.G. Bennett. It's got > "North Star" with Darryl Hall on vox & Phil Collins on drums. It's a great > album with a lot of big names. It's my favorite work by Fripp. "Water Music I," "North Star" and the version of "Here Comes the Flood" found on _Network_ were originally on _Exposure_. _Exposure_ is part of a three album trilogy composed of Darryl Hall's _Sacred Songs_ and Peter Gabriel's _Peter Gabriel II_. This is all clearly spelled out in the liner notes from _Exposure_. > /Let the Power Fall/, on the other hand, was an attrocious piece of work. I couldn't possibly disagree more. _Let the Power Fall_ is probably Fripp's most brilliant solo album. It was recorded in very musically hazardous, challenging conditions: record stores, small clubs, office buildings, etc. The long tape delay system allows the performer to build up a huge array of chords and timbres that are positively breathtaking. The textures produced are just unbelieveable. Apparantly, this piece is just too complex for you. Of the four major components of music (rhythm, timbre, melody and harmony), melody interests me the least. > It was extreme minimimalism. ...and big, BIG counterpoint. You just didn't get it. > I could have made this album and I don't even play guitar. I seriously doubt it. Have you ever played into a long tape delay and built up a chord one note at a time? I modified an old Echoplexer to do this. It's not easy. > Am I missing something? You bet. Don't listen to just the melody! > Was there some sort of statement Fripp was trying to make? Did you read the outline inside the record jacket? Basically, one small intelligent unit, committed to positive change, can change the small structure that contains it, which can change the large stucture containing it. > It seemed to me to be a political statement-- like a lamentation > over the sad state of the modern world. Sad state of the recording industry. > I only listened to the album once This explains a lot... > Okay, now to clear up a question of mine. Thanks to those who responded to > my question about what Crimson I, II, and III were, but how come it doesn't > jive with the family tree in the boxed set? Because the Crimson I-IV numbers don't refer to specific line-ups. They refer to 'phases' of King Crimson, as listed in Eric Tamm's book about Fripp. Henry B. Messenger "Now I know that twenty centuries of stony sleep henry_burdett_messenger@ Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle cup.portal.com And what rough beast its hour come round at last KD6EFY Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1992 16:32:36 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: Re: Let the Power Fall I find the Let the Power Fall CD/LP to have great artistic value. The tape loops are minimalistic because the sometimes awesome guitar solos that would accompany the tape loop performances are not there. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying it. I usually avoid the first couple of tracks because their endings grate on me, but the last track is incredible and I pop it into my CD player often just to hear this track. Nothing in the original recording is digital; it's one electric guitar, two revox tapes looped together to form a delay, and an oscilloscope used to keep them in synch (pre-"Fripp in a box" digital delay days). All the performances were done live in pizza parlors, record stores and the like. I suppose it's the fragility of the medium and spontaneity of each note that suprises me about the structure of the music. Fripp didn't record the guitar solos that he also played, but he had the tape loops from his performances and some dang fool convinced him to put them on record. Yes, it's very simple music, but some of it is very good. If you can find it, "Marriagemusic" is a Frippertronics track on the b-side of Heptaparashinokh (or whatever), a single released in conjunction with The League of Gentlemen LP back in 1980. It is a long, less-simple, creepy tune like some bootlegs suggesting that Let the Power Fall is very "homogenized". - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1992 17:25:46 EST From: Phong Co Subject: Lyrics Does anyone know where I can get a hold of KC lyrics? I'm looking for "One More Red Nightmare" and "Frame By Frame", specifically. Thanks! -- ============================================================================ Phong T. Co Montreal, CANADA chryses at xurilka dot UUCP ============================================================================ :nature: n. See {has the X nature}. -- From "The Jargon File" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: New Crimson info Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 23:22:10 CST From: Greg Hatch I talked to Adrian Belew's management and asked them about the rumors of King Crimson reforming and they said that the only thing they could confirm is that those rumors were circulating!! Big help. What they did say is that Adrian is touring in April/May (I'll be there!!) and that there is NOT going to be a King Crimson album out this spring. Hopefully we'll here something definite soon. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1992 12:00:42 -0800 (PST) From: TGRAVES at UPS dot EDU Subject: satori in tangier To answer Merlin, Satori (Sartori) in Tangier is a play on the title "Satori in Paris." "Satori in Paris" is a novel by Kerouac. As a sidelight, I read that Fripp basically made Belew read "On the Road." Belew stated this in a book called "Songwriters on Songwriting." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 10:20:39 GMT-0600 From: germuska at speedy dot acns dot nwu dot edu Subject: Let the Power Fall To those of you who don't like Let the Power Fall: It's important to understand what the album is supposed to be. If you read the liner notes, it's from a small tour Fripp did in 80? 81? Anyway, the frippertronics that are on the album are only half of the experience. If you have the Live! Crafties disc, you can hear a similar tune (I forget the title, sorry) of Frippertronics, but with Fripp's electric solo intact over that. I think it's incredible, personally! I would guess that Fripp didn't want to record the solos for Let the Power Fall because they were meant to be totally improvisational, and recording a context-sensitive improvisation would be "wrong." Of course, that's a guess, but that would explain why the soloing wasn't recorded for Let the Power Fall. Or I could be completely wrong. Peace, Joe [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Mar 92 11:35 CST From: e343mh at tamuts dot tamu dot edu (Michael Hand) Subject: Fripp book biblio data College Station TX dangerous place. Nobody around here know how to get Tamm's Fripp book. Plea: could someone email me publisher, date, ISBN, etc? Thank! (Also, if you have data Tamm's Eno book, too.) B-o} Michael H. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 10 Mar 92 01:51:25 EST From: fitzgera at trump dot rutgers dot edu Subject: Let_The_Power_Fall In response to Rob Petrone's remarks on the subject of Let The Power Fall, I must state that I find it to be an amazing album. It is Frippertronics at its (their) most basic and penetrating. I strongly recommend any who are not comfortable with this record to listen to it late (late!) at night on headphones. Try to listen to every single note. Because that's what it is, just a series of single notes, overlapping and interacting. Just a suggestion. Michael Fitzgerald [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: bodarky at cme dot nist dot gov (Scott Bodarky) Subject: Re: The Court of the Crimson King Date: 10 Mar 92 16:18:52 GMT toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk (Toby Howard) writes: > The word is that the new Crimson drummer will be Jerry Marotta. Wasn't there a big brouhaha involving Robert Fripp and Bill Bruford a few years ago? I recall hearing that Fripp tried to reform King Crimson with a new supporting cast, but was foiled when Bruford went to court and obtained a ruling to the effect that any future incarnation of King Crimson required his presence. It sounds farfetched, I know, especially in light of other celebrated intragroup feuds of recent years, but this is what I recall. Anyone know more about this? -Scott (bodarky at cme dot nist dot gov)| "Laughter is the closest distance | between two people." The National Institute | of Standards & Technology | -Victor Borge [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 9:53:36 PST From: "John M. Relph" Subject: KC/Fripp Discography Hey Crimsonites! I've been working on a Robert Fripp and King Crimson Discography for a while now. It has some good information but also has some gaping holes where the wind blows right through. If you would like to help bring this puppy up, please send newspapers and food to... I mean, send me a message and I'll forward a copy of the current discography straight away. ALL DETAILS are welcome and needed. But what I need MOST is for some wonderful person to volunteer to Take Over. I initially compiled the discography because there was a need to fill, but I am not interested in continuing. So if there is anybody out there who would like to Take Over compilation and distribution of the Fripp/Crimso Discography, please LET ME KNOW! -- John P.S. The latest version is 1.8a (19 Feb 92) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 10 Mar 92 11:58:00 PDT From: d_lissner at emulex dot com Subject: Crimson >From Chris King via D_LISSNER at EMULEX dot COM... Fripp's rewrite of history irritates me. I glanced through the liner notes of the boxed set before I played any music and noticed a couple of obvious typos: Adrian Belew singing "Cadence and Cascade" and Tony Levin playing bass on "Bolero". Those of you who have the set are ahead of me--they weren't typos, but Bobby's sneaky asassination of the estimable Gordon Haskell via overdubs of his vocals and bass. Oh sure, Haskell stuck around only long enough to pick up three months' worth of session's checks, but why dust him from a best-of disc? (Personally, I always wanted to edit David Cross out of Crimso history. Check out the live "Talking Drum" from the Concertgebouw tapes on the boxed set's live disc--is that a waste of nine-minute violin solo space or what?) If we want to change history, how about also erasing those embarrassing psychedelic groovy-toons "Travel-weary Capricorn" and "Get Thy Bearings" on the live disc? (Who ever heard of a rock n roll tune with "Thy" in it? May be "Thigh" but not "Thy".) Stick the spliff back behind the Marshalls boys and play some music. You know, Tony Levin never really goosed Fripp and Bruford like John Wetton could. Yeah, tell me about Tony's chops and photo but Johnny parts my hair when he kicks in "Asbury Park". Crimson III blinds you with science, but Crimson II could toss a crocodile down your shorts. Maybe Johnny can lend Tony his distortion pedal for Crimson IV. Then watch that sweet blonde in the front row stop yawning, moisten her lips, and undo her top couple of buttons In a previous column, someone nailed Fripp for ripping off Gustav Holst in order to write the "Devil's Triangle" on "Poseidon". Is it only me but does that monster riff right after the first quiet section in Stravinski's "Rite of Spring" sound suspiciously like the riff that opens "Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Part 2"? This next one's a little far out, but I had a college roommate who swore that the frantic riff that follows the vocals section on "Schizoid Man" was written by Bobby based on the "Mission Impossible" theme. Of course, though, he, my roommate, listened to Queen... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.