Errors-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #266 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 266 Friday, 15 March 1996 Today's Topics: Forthcoming DGM releases KING CRIMSON VIDEOS H.Czukay & Mincer re:#264 Shiny Angry Bitter Bilious Crimso Fans Re: ET: Holdsworth, Fripp, and UK Sorta Survey I Advance Masked: Discipline's Sister Bored to tears . . . KC on the radio Avenida Corrientes and Damage 1969 Live Performances Recent Crim on Vinyl???? Fripp and Proggie Rock/Holdsworth, etc. Givin' a damn about sound quality Favorite Moments Radiophonics? RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #265 Administrivia: POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: The DIY List Machine is back! At www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ Visit the *new* ET on the web at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ For all administrative issues, such as change of address, withdrawal from the list, etc., send a message to the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ** If you want to opt for new 'ET BULLETIN' service, where instead of the whole digest you receive a short email announcing the latest edition is out, and where to read it on the web, email me, toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk, saying: "ET BULLETIN -- YES". ** The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:58:18 +0000 From: Ron Chrisley Organization: COGS, University of Sussex Subject: Forthcoming DGM releases In one of the inserts for Fripp's new Radiophonics CD, some forthcoming releases on DGM are listed: Forthcoming releases: RF & League of Gentlemen: Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx (official bootleg -- Live in 1980) RF: Soundbites Vol. Three: 1995 Soundscapes Live King Crimson: THRaK aTTaK Ten Sceonds: Ten Seconds To Midnight In preparation: David & His Nut Farm King Crimson: Archive recordings 1969-84 RF: The Gates of Paradise -- Ron Chrisley (ronc at cogs dot susx dot ac dot uk) http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ronc/index.html Chill. Serve. Enjoy. Repeat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:33:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Eric Sindelman Subject: KING CRIMSON VIDEOS I was hoping there was a friendly soul out there who might be able to make me a copy of the two concert videos King Crimson has put out in the past. I think one of the was from '82, and i KNOW the other one was live in Japan on the Three of a Perfect Pair tour. If anyone would be kind enough to do this, please email me. I'd be happy to pay shipping and handling costs, plus of course the cost of a good blank. Thanx! -Jonathan sindelmn at gladstone dot uoregon dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:43:17 +0100 (MET) From: Pierre Kourzanoff Subject: H.Czukay & Mincer Hi ye all fellow crimheads! This is my first mail in ET (excluding quite unfortunate one I sent a couple of months ago), and it persues two goals: Firstly, in last ET release Gideon B Banner asked: > Anyone know who this guy Holger Czukay is? > I keep hearing aboutq him, but > have no idea who or what he is, but would love to know. And I would love to inform you a bit about this. Holger Czukay is a bass player and originally played in german band CAN, I'm sure you've heard 'bout it. Formed in the late sixties, this band, with a couple of other bands from Germany (Faust, for instance) were perfect example of psychedelic/avant-guarde mix in rock-music. I doubt that it's possible to find any relations in the music of CAN and KC, but anyway, they worked in the same direction in the same period of time (71-74). But, returning to Holger, I recall that he appears on some recordings of David Sylvian (sometime around 1984), and Jon Hassel (the name may be misspelled, sorry), not counting numerous solo LPs. Secondly, I would really like to thank Sasha Wolf for supplying those lines John Wetton sings on the most terrifying and the most bitter piece of music on "SaBB" - The Mincer. I agree with the theory about the meaning of the piece, though me myself imagine more "Stalker"-like (A.Tarkovsky) inferno hearing this song. Greetings, Peter. P.S: Traditionally, excuse me for my English... ------------------------------------------------------ People are people, and they are basically bad .... ====================================================== F r a n c Z a p p a ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 05:26:35 -0900 From: wombat at aonline dot com Subject: re:#264 I couldn't disagree more with Mike Dicksons assessment of the USA album. And there is no mystery why Fripp chose the selections he did, the mystery would have been profound had they not done those selections. Except, I would have used something other than 21st Century Schizoid Man to close it with. Other than that it is one of the best works in the history of music. Says me! I have always found the sound quality on it exceptional for a live album. Lets not forget we are talking about 1975. What other live albums from that era would you say were recorded better? Actually, one of the most endearing things to me about a live album is that the artists are sometimes compromised and interesting things can happen. I find merit in the live version of Ltia ptII, and sometimes wish the studio version had some of it's qualities. If I wake up late and have little time to get ready for work, say for only one cup of coffee, I crank the USA version of LTiAII or ASBURY PARK, gets my circulation going, and I'm ready to deal with the dismal work day ahead. But my neighbors would prefer that I wake up when I'm supposed to and have the time I need to get a proper caffeine buzz. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:30:33 -0500 From: mcarton at bancroft dot com (Matthew Carton) Subject: Shiny Angry Bitter Bilious Crimso Fans Couldn't help but notice that the last two ET's had missives from two seemingly Very Angry Young Persons. M. Caron and Mr. Garner, I suppose, want all Crimso fans to be on the Same Ethereal Soundscape Plane as they. My response to their missives is this: "You guys are right. You're absolutely right. The rest of us are pitiable a***oles. You're both right. Sorry." I think the great thing and what I certainly enjoy about ET is that Crimso fans of ALL colors and stripes, whether they be knowledgeable or not so knowledgeable about Messrs Fripp et al, can at least ask some questions and get some feedback. I wish I could share my dramatic Best-Fripp experience, or know what it's like to sit in an engineers room and choose between BASF or Ampex analogue tape to record for my midrange Technics stereo (which, by the way, THRAK sounds good on). That I cannot do. But I can ask about "Lark's Tongues" because, well, I can. I like learning about Crimso, I like hearing about Crimso, I like hearing of others experiences with Crimso. I think ET is a great forum. I think Red is a masterpiece, and I think Belew's dub of "Cadence and Cascade" shouldn't stop there -- they should completely re-remaster, say, all of Lizard. But that's me, those are my values. Lighten up, gents. It's just a band. A band with a lot of meaning for a lot of folks. Not just say, uh, you et vous alone. So there. PS Toby -- thanks. This is a great gig you have going. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:37:28 -0500 From: dalane at oxygen dot bbn dot com (Dave Lane) Subject: Re: ET: Holdsworth, Fripp, and UK Organization: BBN Domain Corporation sgoodman at primenet dot com (Steve Goodman) offered the following: > First and foremost, I've understood that Allan Holdsworth has been suffering > for a number of years with a severe enough case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome to > keep him from working much at all. I believe this has been the case since > the late 80's. [snippertronics] He's put out several albums and done several tours since the late 80's. He's got another album due out in the next few months. Where did you get your info? --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:19:28 -0500 From: gabriel dot a dot radvansky dot 1 at nd dot edu (G.A. Radvansky) Subject: Sorta Survey Hey you! Yeah, You!! Most survey's that appear on the 'net ask people to list their favorites. Like their favorite Crimson album, their favorite songs, their favorite flavors. This is all well and good, and I enjoy reading the results. However, I would like to conduct a survey of a different sort. Over the years I've noticed that there have been some tunes by past and present members of KC that sure seem like KC tunes. However, they are not. So, what I'd like to do is to have people send me (NOT TOBY) a list of those songs (and who did them) that could have been/should have been KC songs. The only criteria is that the song have had major involvement by a current or former Crimson member and that it seems like a song that could fit in somewhere in KCs history. Two examples of what I am thinking of are Bruford's "Beelzebub" which appeared on his "Feels Good to Me" album, and Tony Levin's "Lone Bear" which appeared on P. Gabriel's "Plus From US" album. If I remember correctly, "Beelzebub" SHOULD have been to be a KC tune, but Fripp broke the act up before it could be. "Lone Bear" COULD be a KC tune because it sounds to me like it more than hints at Crimson. So, send your opinions to me and I'll post them to E.T. sometime in mid to late April. Also, if you agree with either of my two examples, don't forget to include them in your response to boost their count total. Exposed, --G.A. ___________________________________ G. A. Radvansky Department of Psychology University of Notre Dame ------------------------------ From: gvacano at beaver dot mbb dot wesleyan dot edu (Guido Vacano) Subject: I Advance Masked: Discipline's Sister Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:34:42 -0500 (EST) Hello-- I hope this hasn't been mentioned previously. The Andy Summers/Robert Fripp album _I Advance Masked_ is musically similar to _Discipline_ and _Beat_, starting with the first track (the title track), which has the same guitar work as the _Beat_ tune, Neurotica. The album seems to have been developed in parallel with _Discipline_ and _Beat_, taking the same, or similar, musical themes in entirly different directions. Good stuff! :-) Guido -- The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The Name that can be named is not the eternal Name. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:10:48 -0500 (EST) From: Darius Subject: Bored to tears . . . > From: "Caron, Antoine" > Subject: Boring... > Here's a suggestion: why don't we start a series on > "Great Crimson/Fripp moments" in which a person tries to put in words an > intense experience related to our favorite obsession. . . . . > . . . . Isn't it one of the main reasons for this newsletter to exist? My God, no, No, NO! Not that, please!!! Quite seriously: I do not mind reading through the occasional "touching moments" essay, but if this newsletter is to be turned into such a collection of maudlin meanderings, I want to be unsubscribed immediately. Fortunately, I believe, Toby has far more sense than to allow that to happen. I believe the newsletter exists for discussions of _all_ matters related to King Crimson (and Robert Fripp), and all the issues I've seen so far bear that interpretation out. I agree it can get tiresome reading the same arguments go back & forth or the potentially endless discussion of meanings for various songs (and yes I did contribute some myself); but personally I find the sentimental stuff often just as tiresome if not moreso. It's like you're publishing entries from your diary -- do you really want everyone to read that stuff? If a topic is being discussed/argued to death, as NST & THG were, it's up to the moderator to end the discussion, just as Toby did. If you start reading an entry and don't find it interesting, it's up to you to skip it. If you find the whole thing getting boring, try starting a new discussion by submitting the sort of thing you want to discuss/read. Completely unrelated aside: Three of a Perfect Pair only came in 12th in the survey?!? Guess I should've voted . . . (I'm not familiar with most of the 70's stuff, so I refrained from doing so; but I'm surprised ToaPP did so poorly, personally I think it's at least as good as Discipline) Darius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:01:50 +0100 From: Wilfrid dot Blin at ens dot insa-rennes dot fr (Wilfrid Blin) Subject: KC on the radio I have created a radio broadcast about progressive rock in RENNES ( Britain ). It's on Canal B, an associative radio ( 94MHz ) every sunday between 10.30 pm and 0.00 am. This sunday ( 17th march ), our whole show will be dedicated to King Crimson !!! If someone is interrested for having play-lists of our show ( since the beginning ), I will send them. I think in a few weeks, we'll have a WEB page... LES ESPACES INQUIETS. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:02:46 -0800 From: brady at rainier dot darwin dot com (William Brady) Subject: Avenida Corrientes and Damage Dear ET'ers, I recently happened upon a double CD set, a boot I'm sure, called Avenida Corrientes recorded mostly from the '94 Buenos Aires concerts. On the second CD are 6 tracks from an '82 show from Germany. Is anyone familiar with this recording? In regards to copies of Damage, try checking out your local Wherehouse. I bought a copy of Damage at one store 6 months ago and found another copy last night at a Wherehouse in a mall for only $18! They seem to hide this CD back in the" boxed set" section of the store and since it is small, it often gets obscured by much larger packages. I'm not sure why they carried this CD at all since they don't carry Sylvian, not much Fripp and only a token selection of KC, but it's worth the time to check it out. When can we expect the next KC tour? Bill Brady, LOJ,MOBB brady at darwin dot com bccmemWB at cris dot com PHONE: (206) 489-8000 x2023 FAX: (206) 489-8019 PAGER: (206) 807-6528 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 03:00:25 +1000 (EST) From: Marcel Safier Subject: 1969 Live Performances With the next live box supposedly to contain performances from the first album line-up I am curious as to which performances may be included. Several seem to be recycled on bootlegs although I suspect RF has tapes of at least several others (he cites the large collection of concert tapes he has in the booklet accompanying the Great Deceiver set). These are the performances I have seen on bootlegs: March For No Reason (Archivio ARC CD 024/2) ------------------- Victoria Ballroom Jazz Club, Chesterfield, Sep 7, 1969: 21st Century Schizoid Man Drop In Epitaph Get Thy Bearings I Talk To The Wind In The Court of The Crimson King Improvisations BBC Top Gear: 21st Century Schizoid Man In The Court of The Crimson King Get Thy Bearings Epitaph Plumpton Festival: Travel Capricorn Get Thy Bearings Pandemonium (WPOCM 0290 D 046-2) ----------- BBC May 6, 1969: In The Court of The Crimson King Plumpton Festival, Aug 9, 1969: 21st Century Schizoid Man Get Thy Bearings Devil's Triangle Crimson Blue's In The Court of The Crimson King Talk To The Wind (Oil Well RSC 045 CD) ---------------- Cheltenham, Feb 9, 1967 (sic): Why Don't You Just Drop In Epitaph Get Thy Bearings Talk To The Wind In The Court of The Crimson King War A Weird Persons Guide Vol. 2 (Invasion Unlimited IU 9426-1) ---------------------------- Jazz Club, Chesterfield, Sep7 , 1969: Why Don't You Just Drop In Devil's Triangle The Cheltenham gig does not match anything listed in the gig listing in The Young Persons' Guide LP booklet. Does anyone else have other 1969 tracks on other releases? I wonder if any of the above will be in the box set. Whatever it includes I am sure it will be eagerly awaited. Cheers! Marcel Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 14:17:01 EST From: Jack Secret Subject: Recent Crim on Vinyl???? Hey there ETers!!! I was browsing through my local record store the other day hoping to find the elusive still sealed vinyl version of "Beat" that I just know exists when I came across something interesting. Filed with the other KC records was "Low Flying Aircraft," the album that all the kids are talking about. Actually, just you people are talking about it. Anyway, it made me think--I know that all the King Crimson albums up through TOAPP were released on glorious vinyl but I've never seen anything since. Does anyone know if the recent barrage of KC albums (VROOM, THRAK, B'BOOM) was released in record form or do I have to endure with my high-technology-cost-too-much-digital-pieces-of-$#!t CD's???? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Oh yeah, that "Low Flying Aircraft" I found was only 4 bucks. (What a bargain, what a bargain for me!) I bought it and I really dig it but my search for the "Beat" continues... JS "Art as expression, not as market campaigns will still capture our imagination" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 11:31:24 PST From: "Hoard, Chris" Subject: Fripp and Proggie Rock/Holdsworth, etc. Thanks for the response regarding UK. My only further thought is, if Fripp or Bruford are not involved, I do not hold out much hope it will amount to much. Jobson and Wetton certainly have the potential of surprising us, but if they pick up where they left off with their live record, forget it. One other thought that I don't think has been addressed much here, and that is Fripp and the Cult of Prog. Other than King Crimson, Fripp's efforts outside of KC have *never* had much to do with the progressive rock movement which blossomed in the 70s with bands like Yes, ELP, and Gentle Giant. Let me see--a couple of possible exceptions--Fripp guesting on a Wetton project and playing on or producing some of PGs first three solo albums. But those projects really don't easily fit the "progressive mold" -- they were more forays into mainstream rock and pop, and were less experimental than, say, "Low." I'm sure the last thing Fripp thinks KC is the "quintessential Prog band," even though the early KC pretty defined/covered the entire gamut of what that music was about--then delved swiftly along into darker and more forboding territory. More than the term "progressive," KC as of late has evolved into a showcase featuring some of rock's finest musical technicians. Every member of the band has versatility that extends far beyond the traditional bounds of mainstream or "progressive" rock music. Another thought -- Fripp's presence as a guitar soloist (not a complaint). Since PG's "White Shadow," and with the possible exception of "Talking Drum" >from the recent KC live "B'Boom" -- Fripp simply chooses not to be a soloist--though he occasionally flirts with that role in KC. He focuses almost exclusively on the arrangement, compositions, overall integration and texture of KC's music moreso than expressing himself as an instrumentalist. Outside of KC he's entirely comfortable with that role -- because he is not as much a part of the music's conception -- i.e., with Bowie, Gabriel, Eno, Andy Summers, etc. Fripp has documented a whole other side of musicianship that KC seldom bears witness to. This to me is one of Fripp's identifiable characterics of Fripp that became external to KC post-Wetton/early days. >First and foremost, I've understood that Allan Holdsworth has been suffering >for a number of years with a severe enough case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome to >keep him from working much at all. I believe this has been the case since >the late 80's. This is *not* the case. I've heard Holdsworth joke at gigs about Alzheimer's and CT Syndrome when he's been unhappy with his performance. Having been involved with the recent production of his forthcoming jazz project, "None Too Soon," I might be biased, but his technique and dexterity to my ears have been put recently to far more challenging tasks than those he tackled in the days of Bruford and UK. --CH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:39:10 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Givin' a damn about sound quality Folks: I'm sorry I sounded like I was trying to get into a high-end "gear battle". I wasn't. I do, however, care quite a bit about the recorded sound quality of music, particularly good music like KCs'. Think of it like this: with a band like Crimson, we can see the recording process as really an extension of the artistic process as a whole, so of course it is of interest. In the ugliest levels of the pop world, the production/PR, and even song writing are often more or less corporate decisions, so we as consumers tend to eliminate those aspects from our consideration of a performers. I know of music recorded on million-dollar systems, and patched through to a 5$ transistor radio: how's that for a common denominator. For me, the fullest experience of music is not m erely some jingle-like melody I can hum, but the complete and subtle set of textures, harmonics, and spacial cues that are the ultimate expression of the artistic event captured in the recording medium. To hear great music that is well recorded on a great sound system is quite a thrill, and i imagine beyond the expectations of those unfamiliar with it. As for the guy who had spent time in studios, I too am well familar with what goes on, having grown up in a family intimately tied with the music business. What's your point? Are you saying that becuase some things are mixed for a mass market, we shouldn't point out another recording that may have been made with great love and care? You must be one of the "Knobs McPhersons" or "Freddie Feedbacks" that musicians complain so bitterly about, that are the front-end of the whole trash-compactor that is the popular music business. Just because YOU have ears of clay doesn't mean I gotta! As for Thrak sound once again, while I do still maintain that it is well recorded and a blast to listen to much of the way, i have come to agree with some of the comments of Orn Orrason: on the intro to Dinosaur, Fripp seems to be playing something really cool, but it is so far down in the mix as to be very hard to make out at times. Perhaps you're right: perhaps they chose a very particular-sounding monitor, maybe with a peak at a crossover frequency. The actual type of monitor, I believe, is mentioned in the liner notes, but I had never heard of it. -Emory. ------------------------------ From: SteveSmith at kochint dot com Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 15:03:45 PST Subject: Favorite Moments Toby - I tried to submit this yesterday and had it returned... my mail server wouldn't recognize arastar.com or something. Could you maybe let me know what I'm doing wrong? Posting follows: *----------------------------------------------------- Hello, everyone. This is my first-ever posting, and I'm really glad to be here amongst you. I've really enjoyed the last 3 digests I've received and look forward to checking out the back issues (particularly for items about Gordon Haskell, whose stuff I think is wondrous) As a 29 year old who missed the 1972-75 "magic" version of the band, I just had to comment on this as part of the new "favorite moments" string... >From: Christopher John Cole >Subject: My favourite KC moment > Hello to one and all, > I would have to say that my favorite KC moment was >without a doubt >seeing htem play Thrak live in Cleveland this past spring Unlike Christopher, I very much liked the versions of "Thrak" on VROOOM and THRAK, and at Town Hall in June 1995. But when I heard it at the Longacre Theatre on Broadway in November, it was the first time I felt like I got a glimpse of the '72-75 "magic" lineup having a blow. The lights went down and suddenly the atmosphere was supercharged... our six boys were rapt in the process of active listening, and I was spellbound. I listen to boots and to GREAT DECEIVER specifically to hear such in-the-moment creative acts, and I never felt like I got that from the only other version of the band I saw, 1981. Granted I never heard them in 1984, and there was reason to believe from RHAPSODY and the Japan video that there was more improv happening. But "Thrak" live in November is my personal magic moment for right now. Is it too much to hope that the new THRAK ATTACK will be made up entirely of such moments? Best, Steve Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:48:49 -0500 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: Radiophonics? I saw a copy as an import last night for $26.00! The section of the Possible Prod. web site for mechandise is closed and I need to know when this is being released in the US. The cover art resembles A Blessing of Tears and indicates that it was recorded in Argentina. They ARE part of the same series. David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music dmb5561719 at aol dot com Email for a copy of our catalog.. . . .. ...... .. . . . . . . . . . . . .... .. . . . ... . . Superfinemagneticparticles "Murk" is now out. and I'm actually on this one! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 23:52:19 UT From: "Julius & Jennifer Saroka" Subject: RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #265 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:38:21 -0500 Subject: Ghost Dance - Giles, Muir & Cunningham Ghost Dance Piano 502 I found this cd by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir & David Cunningham (Flying Lizards). Recorded in 1983, compiled for cd: July 1995. I was told that this tasty little disc originaly came out on Incus. That's right. Derek Bailey's label. The one named after a bone in your ear. Yep. Michael Giles - kit drums, assorted percussion, mouth horns, mouth reeds, bow, voice, keyboard. Jamie Muir - assorted percussion, hand drums, bow, thumb piano, mouthpiece, conch. David Cunningham - loops treatments, guitar, occasional percussion. Why post this to ETalk? I guess the obvious connection would be that Robert Fripp was on the 2nd Flying Lizard's album and on David Cunningham's cd Water. The other two fellows? The names sound familar, yet they don't ring a bell. if you're not kidding, you really need to pay more attention!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- End of Elephant-Talk Digest #265 ********************************