Errors-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #265 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 265 Tuesday, 12 March 1996 Today's Topics: Women; Grammy's; and Drums Thrak Sound, LTIA origins, album rating, Thela meaning, Fripp won't shake RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #263 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #264 Bill Janssen 'Handling' LTiA3 / Oh Those Pesky Definitive Editions! Sound Quality of Thrak Re: friendly fripp(ET #264) My favourite KC moment Re: Indiscipline (E.T. #264) meaning of catfood Holger Czukay LTIA PT 3/VROOM Re: this night wounds time Gamelan comparison the "it" in Indiscipline YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!! re: Miscellany collaborations Thrak sound and Ladies of the road ET: Holdsworth, Fripp, and UK Cover of Court Album In The Court Of The Crimson Lark's Tongue...er...I Think Soundscapes at QEH, 9th March 1996 Holger Czukay (ET264) The Michael Brook connection (was Re: YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!!) Frame By Frame & Greenaway Ghost Dance - Giles, Muir & Cunningham Filing ET #264 Fripp on Breathe? POLL RESULTS AHOY! aaaaaaaaaaaaa Matte Kudasai Re:Great Crimson/Fripp moments Boring, so let's change it! Swap: Concise KC Administrivia: POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk UNSUB/ADDRESS CHANGES: The DIY List Machine is back! At www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list Visit ET on the web at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et For all administrative issues, such as change of address, withdrawal from the list, etc., send a message to the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ** If you want to opt for new 'ET BULLETIN' service, where instead of the whole digest you receive a short email announcing the latest edition is out, and where to read it on the web, email me, toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk, saying: "ET BULLETIN -- YES". ** The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:35:56 -0500 From: tomhowie at nylink dot org Subject: Women; Grammy's; and Drums Becky wrote: > If you're looking for dance music, you're looking through the > wrong window at Crimson. I wish people would stop > characterizing by sex. Find people who feel the music and > you'll find the Crimson fans, male or female. Interesting. The Gentle Giant listserve has noticed the same lack of female Gentle Giant fans, while those women who *do* like GG list the same reasons. There's a sociology dissertation here waiting for some clever post-grad! James writes: > Hey everybody! Tomorrow night (Wednedsay) is the Grammy awards and incase > you forgot, Crimson is up for best instrumental for VROOOM. I'm sure that > they won't devote any amount of time to this award, but when they go to > commercial breaks, they usually say awards that were presented earlier in > the evening. Look for it and hopefully they will win. I remember surfing in to the Grammys ages ago (it seems), only to catch one of those "also awarded" bumpers and was pleasantly surprised to see Yes win Best Rock Instrumental for "Cinema". Thanks to Dick Ross and Will Landin for the EXCELLENT post on King Crimson drum tunings! I've printed this one out and stuck it in my copy of WHEN IN DOUBT, ROLL! Thanks to ET for providing a voice for one of the most intelligent group of fans going. Tomas "More Than Gerbil, Less Than Man" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:48:27 GMT From: neputnya at fishnet dot net (G Garner) Subject: Thrak Sound, LTIA origins, album rating, Thela meaning, Fripp won't shake "Eye gotta killer staryo sistum, but THRAK sownds lyke mudd!" I find it hilarious that folks with "audiophile" quality stereo gear are hashing back & forth with "Thrak sounds bad on my expensive system" and "Thrak sounds great on my just as expensive system" and "Anything recorded at Peter Gabriel's sounds like it was filtered through the alimentary canal of a diseased moose". Not to brag, but having spent a fair amount of time in recording studios, I know any engineer worth his weight in Ampex tape will tell you that most music is mixed to sound the best on an AVERAGE stereo system, not some overpriced-gold-plated-I-paid-more-for-my-stereo-than-my-car-sold-to-only-.0 005%-of-the-stereo-buying-public system. A good engineer will mix using a few different types of monitors from baby Auratones up to giant custom-built wall-embedded refrigerator-sized monitors. I remember one studio that actually had room with a car in it so they could mix it to sound good on a factory-installed car stereo! "Whear didd Larx Tungz cum frum?" Enough about the origins of the title "LTIA"! Enough! Enough!. To borrow and slightly twist a campaign phrase from none other than Slick Willie, "IT'S THE MUSIC, STUPID!" "Letz rait duh Keeng Krimzun albims!" Why anybody would want to assign numerical quality indicators to KC albums is beyond my comprehension. They are all rotten albums. No, they're all great albums. Well, if you were to take Lizard, remix it at Peter Gabriel's studio to make it sound depressing, replace Haskell's vocals with David Sylvian, replace Jon Anderson's "Prince Rupert" with anything by the Buggles, make Keith Tippett redo his piano parts, only wearing O.J. Simpson's gloves this time around, and throw in some samples of Jamie Muir assaulting Fripp with a salad shooter, then you'd have yer number one album! Or maybe we should just have all the albums deleted except for the true masterpiece, "Earthbound". "Thela Hun Ginjeet. Wot duz itt meen?" Who cares? Actually, if you all remember, there are distinct Balinese Gamelan influences on the albums released in the eighties. "Thela Hun Ginjeet" is actually the Balinese for the official favourite dish of Gamelan musicians, which happens to be (yes, you all know this) LARK'S TOUNGUES IN ASPIC!!! "Fripp won't talk to me! He's a jerk! But Adrian talked to me. He's way cool!" I just love reading posts from all the poor, tortured souls who are the unwitting victims of the baleful Fripp's lugubrious countenance. Dontcha realize that he's just testing you? Besides, his mission is fulfilled on the stage and in the studio, not autographing your dog-eared copy of "Wake of Poseidon" or shaking your sweaty little guitar-craft deformed, roach-stained hand. Think of those folks who stand at intersections with misspelled signs preying on your guilt. That's how Frippo sees you! To him, your a spiritually starved scruff, holding a sign that says "Please shake my hand Robert, if you don't, I'll tell everyone your a jerk and throw a CD at your head at the next concert!", when all you really need is to LISTEN TO "INDISCIPLINE" AT FULL VOLUME UNTIL YOU REALIZE THAT IN THE BIG CRIMSO SCHEME OF THINGS, YOU ARE BUT A DISCARDED ERNIE BALL GUITAR PICK, WAITING TO BE SWEPT UP INTO THE POST-CONCERT OFFAL OF EMPTY BEER CUPS, ROACHES AND THE ODD NOSE HAIR. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 23:30:20 EDT From: "ME. :)" Subject: RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #263 Just a thought: Always thought that it'd be interesting to hear an arrangement of "Industry" for strings and percussion (sorta like the PCO on steroids? :) ), or perhaps "Sheltering Sky". Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:11:55 -0500 From: recengnr at athens dot net (TL) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #264 >From: Randy Long -- Personal Account >>Subject: New Standard Tooning Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:28:01 -0500 (EST) >First of all, I'd like to correct a number of recent posts concerning the >new standard tuning that seem to all be making the same mistake. >I hope that clears things up..... >-----Barton Mitchell Finally!!! A man with vision!! Tom Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:25:24 -0500 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Bill Janssen I've seen a couple inquiries in the past couple issues as to what saxophonist Bill Janssen's connection is to Adrian Belew. I haven't seen a reply, so here goes. In the early 80's (or was it late 70's?) when Fripp was touring with the League of Gentleman the opening band was Adrian Belew and the Ga Ga's. I saw them at the old Cleveland Agora (which later burned down and was resurrected in a new location). Well, certainly there are many of us that absolutely dread opening acts and I certainly did this time as well. However, Belew & Co. turned the audience around in no time at all. In fact, I'd have to say that it was probably the only time that I actually enjoyed an opening act more than the headliner I came to see! Yes, that's right, the Ga Ga's blew the Gentleman off the stage! The music was great and there was such a sense of 'fun' about it that you just couldn't help falling in love with that band! All the songs were original, I'd never heard them before and they weren't available on record, but long after I left that show, I could still remember many of the songs. Later many of them showed up on LONE RHINO and TWANG BAR KING. Except for one irritatingly delightful song about 'peas' that every so often pops up in the back of my head like some damn commercial jingle. Peas Try not to give me disease Damn, there it goes again! And they wore these silly green caps when they did the song. It was hilarious! So anyway, as you've probably guessed by now, Bill Janssen was a member of the Ga Ga's. The other members were Christy Bley on keyboards and J. Clifton Mayhew on bass. If I recall correctly they didn't have a drummer at the concert. Instead they performed with drums on tape recorded by Adrian himself. The Ga Ga's also backed Adrian on LONE RHINO and TWANG BAR KING. Although they received individual credit on the albums, there was, alas, no mention of the unit as the Ga Ga's. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:39:57 GMT From: The Pineapple is a Bromeliad Subject: 'Handling' LTiA3 / Oh Those Pesky Definitive Editions! Many thanks to those of you who responded to my plea for a way to appreciate Lark's Tongues Part 3. Your comments were both interesting and provocative. I will certainly return my attention to this piece in the future. I have already re-listened to both versions I have available: The 'original' on ToaPP - Definitive Edition (Please see comments to follow,), and the live excerpt on the Frame By Frame boxed set. Despite the knowledge that others are able to enjoy the slow section, I still do not appreciate it. I can certainly acknowledge the moments of excellent technique, and interesting fills that various players are contributing, but I still cannot 'find the groove', or grasp any sort of structure or 'destination', if you will. In fact, I find myself becoming impatient with it, as I can clearly hear Bruford becoming impatient along with me. I can almost visualize him struggling with the straight beat, anxious to get on with it, so that they can then proceed to something more challenging. Is _this_ perhaps the intended goal? Or is it perhaps the equivalent of an aerobics 'cool-down' period? To J.P.Bozo, your points of reference (Starless & Discipline) are excellent, so I am still befuddled. To Eric S. T., who seems to sense my desire to find a 'destination' in the piece, yes, that's certainly part of it, but you seem to be suggesting that the destination may be oblivion, and that the path is chaotic. I would agree with this interpretation if applied to LTiA2, and indeed, with many other examples of KC music, but I really can't see it in this case. I experienced and enjoyed Stravinsky before I heard any KC other than Schizoid Man, and I'm not unfamiliar with Zappa, so I think I have the background to get what you're referring to, but it's just not happening. Let me add that I've been listening to KC since about 1972, and am still finding new points of interest in their older material. "I may not know what I LIKE, but I know a lot about ART!" If anyone has additional comments, I'd be very interested in them. New topic: This _has_ been discussed before in ET (And in Discipline as well,) but I feel obliged to add my voice... The 'Definitive Editions' are interesting in that we as listeners are given the opportunity to see a re-evaluation of sorts by (some of) the artists involved, but they should _not_ be the only versions available. I had all of the KC albums through ToaPP on vinyl, but my collection was destroyed in a fire just around the time of the advent of the CD. When it came time to replace cherished titles, I went with CDs. Due to the expense involved, this process was slow, and in fact is still ongoing. (I doubt I'll ever find a CD version of M. Frog Labatt, or Tonto's Expanding Head Band, sigh...) Although I respect RF, I would _dearly_ love to have a copy of Sleepless with all the crappy electronic drums and glitzy 80's production that were prominent on the original. Every time I play the Definitive Edition, I feel like something's missing. Perhaps if enough of us feel the same, we could convince the powers that be to release a non-remix release, with the non-Definitive Editions of tracks that were heavily-altered in their Definitive versions? (Yeah, and if Wishes were Fishes, we'd all play Castanets... No wait! How's that go again?...) Thanks again to Toby for providing such an excellent forum! I appreciate the effort that goes into such an ongoing task (I haven't updated my own web page in a couple of months!), but I'm disappointed to see topics become restricted. I agree that when there's a tour or new release, that bandwidth can become a serious issue, but at off-peak times like this, it seems that we should be more tolerant of repetitive or long-winded posts (Such as this one. Profuse apologies to any offended or inconvenienced.) I pay for transfer time of mail like many others, but I don't begrudge contributions to ET that I'm not particularly interested in. It's worth it to be able to find the 'gems' that might otherwise be missed. 'Kay, B'Bye! *** AMOEBA Website - http://www.tiac.net/users/daveread/index.html *** ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Date: 8 Mar 96 10:50:04 EDT Subject: Sound Quality of Thrak *Stiffly and pedantically, let me add this to the "sound quality of THRAK" discussion, and pose a question. I imagine most folks won't dispute these assertions: 1. The sound of album THRAK is what it is. 2. The way THRAK sounds now bestows a character upon the overall album. 3. The character of the album reflects the choices and tastes arrived at, by whatever means, by those involved in the making of THRAK (i.e., the band, and the recording, mixing and mastering engineers). I suspect the people involved in making THRAK, have much experience, know what they're doing, and get resonably close to what they intend. Thus, it follows that: 1. Changing the sound of THRAK would make the album something other than it is now. 2. With a different sound the album would have a different character. 3. Changing the choices and tastes of those involved in making the album THRAK would change the character of THRAK. So my question is this -- whose, or which, choices and tastes do you want in operation when King Crimson makes another album? (A soft Dorset voice whispers about the pitfalls of expectations...). *More simply and succinctly -- Hey guys, King Crimson made THRAK sound the way it does. It's what they made. What do you want them to do next time? (A soft Dorset voice whispers about the pitfalls of expectations...). Divisibly, David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:30:33 -0500 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Re: friendly fripp(ET #264) Gregg Ulrich wrote: [Fripp] was friendly with everyone and smiled. He signed whatever people asked. I was at those shows at the Winter Garden at the World Financial Center. One guy asked RF to sign his acoustic guitar, which he held out for Fripp to sign. Fripp politely reponded,"I can't sign that, because it's YOUR guitar, man". Very interesting. But I never got any cookies. Cheers, CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett Help us save "Forever Knight"! http://members.aol.com/CuznJamiMR/SaveForeverKnight.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:07:57 -0500 From: Christopher John Cole Subject: My favourite KC moment Hello to one and all, I would have to say that my favorite KC moment was without a doubt seeing htem play Thrak live in Cleveland this past spring. Wow.. I really don't like the album version whatsoever so when I heard the live version I was blown away. Just the way that the music grows adn becomes this totally seperate form into which more and more modern frustration moves in and out of this form. I remember hearing many different sounds coming out of this entity, form the telephone ringing, people screaming, dogs barking, machinery and all sorts of other wonderufl stuff. Lots and lots of fun. I remember this rather die hard looking KC fan in front of me having a ball and screaming for someone to pick up the phone. Interesting crowd(sorry, there were plenty of interested women there). To me Thrak live is still an intense and brilliant creation. Sort of an odd pull between wanting ot cry from the sadness and wanting to laugh at the truth in the song. So, that would be my KC moment if any care. Well, that and the version of Blockhead off of The Bridge Between which is so much fun to listen to and watch the changes in atmosphere and substances. I thought this night wounds time was a matter of poetry. I was told that there was someone who hung around KC a lot who would spend his time blotting out classic books with a pen to create new poetry, thus "This night wounds time". Lots of fun if you ever get the chance. -- Chris "Faith lies in the ways of sin. I chased the charmed but I don't want them anymore and in their eyes I was alive-a fool's disguise. Shame my tongue, fat with promise all along but when I woke up from that sleep I was happier than I'd ever been". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:12:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark J. Christensen" Subject: Re: Indiscipline (E.T. #264) Martin Breach wrote: >What I've occasionally wondered about is what 'It' in Indiscipline is. The lyrical content of "Indiscipline" was taken from a letter he'd received from his wife (at the time) Margaret. I'm pretty sure she was refering to a recently completed painting of hers. If interested in what her work looks like, check out the cover for Adrian's album "Desire Caught by the Tail". Murkie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:19:16 -0500 From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) Subject: meaning of catfood I was wondering if the song "catfood" has any special significance. Specifically the Lyrics. It seems to me that it is a take on advertising jingles but that is just an impression I get from listening to the song. Normally, I wouldn't presume that a song like catfood would have any special meaning, but the song was played by KC mark III? (Wetton, Bruford & Cross) on TGD bo set. This got me wondering since the song was created by KC mark I (Lake, Giles ...) so I figure it must have some sort of meaning if it is popular across band configurations. well it's goodbye. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:32:28 GMT From: dshaw at tiac dot net (David G. Shaw) Subject: Holger Czukay In response to Gideon Banner: Holger Czukay was a founding member (and creative focus) of Can, a seminal German electronic band. They covered ground in the seventies that has been "rediscovered" recently. They are well-know for recording a series of "Ethnological Forgeries," composed tracks that were ment to sound like various world musics. All of the Can CDs are available, start with "Future Days" if you're curious. You won't be disappointed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Faiers Subject: LTIA PT 3/VROOM Hello out there.... Just a quick observance on Larks Tongues in Aspic, Part III. I too found the latter half of that song to be rather tedious upon listening to it on the LP I bought over ten years ago. It wasn't until I bought the live concert video that I appreciated what was going on. As I recall, on that solo, Fripp gets into it so much that he nearly rises off the stool. On a related note, the latter half of VROOM reminds me of the latter half of LTIA III, with a similar rhythm pattern, but different melodic changes. Maybe I would feel differently if I saw the group perform VROOM live, but at this point I get more out of VROOM VROOM. Anybody out there of a similar persuasion? Time wounds all heals. Greg Faiers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 15:55:59 -0600 From: Byron Towle Subject: Re: this night wounds time >>The small painting on the back cover of Starless and Bible Black is a >>reproduction taken from a book entitled "A Humament" which consists of >>overpaintings of every page in the Victorian novel "A Human Document." >>Sorry, I can't give you the artist's name. . . Tom Phillips He also did the painting on Eno's Another Green World and Thursday Afternoon. [ Thanks to the many other readers who answered this question, which is certainly a FAQ. I hope they'll forgive me for not including their postings, which would have made for a very large ET indeed. -- Toby] ------------------------------ From: William J Jacobs Subject: Gamelan comparison Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:11:39 -0800 (PST) Gideon B Banner wrote: > > I keep hearing that the 80s Crimson took influences from minimalism > and gamelan music. I understand the minamilist > influence; but the gamelan one confuses me. I'm not that familiar with > gamelan: what's the connection? The comparison is being made with Balinese gamelan, but the parallel really isn't that close. Crimson's interlocking guitar parts are similar to gamelan's interlocking gangsa (an instrument somewhat like a xylophone) parts in that both have two instruments interspersing stacato notes with each-other. The big difference is that while Crimson songs usually have the guitars playing in different time signatures for a phase shift, you never see that in Balinese gamelan. Beyond that, I don't really see any connection between the two musics. Bill jacobs William Jacobs | The mind of man is far from the nature of a clear San Diego State University | and equal glass, wherein the beams of things Astronomy Dept. | should reflect according to their true incidence. bjacobs at mintaka dot sdsu dot edu | - Sir Francis Bacon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:41:28 -0600 From: cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu (James Hines) Subject: the "it" in Indiscipline What Adrian is speaking of in Indiscipline is a painting that his wife at the time brought home. More or less, he studied it four hours and hours and didn't know what to think. Eventually he came to a conclusion that he did indeed "like it". I obtained this info from someone's web page who was a big Belew fan and evidently they did a paper in college on Belew. The paper was really interesting but I can't remember where I saw it. It was over a year ago. One more thing, PLEASE stop all this discussion on Thela Hun Ginjeet. The only words spoken are "Thela Hun Ginjeet." Everything else is just jibberish. B'Booming around the room (let's drive to Firenze..), James "THE MAN" Hines cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu ------------------------------ From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:31:31 -0500 Subject: YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!! lordabay at pipeline dot com (michaeldamianjeter) writes: > I know I am inviting major flames, but Yes. Heretic! Burn! Burn! Burn! >I would love to see KC collaborate with Madonna and/or Annie Lennox(I love >their voices; Annie has an avant-garde presentation, and anyone who saw Annie Lennox would be good choice. >Madonna's performance on SNL two years ago knows she can kick when she has >a decent band with decent music behind her) -- I taped that performance for a close friend who, as a child, was brain washed by the media into thinking that that M person has talent. What I heard was a woman who had a great deal of trouble singing in tune. Quite sad. You asked for it. My .02 cents: Get someone like Najma and bring some hand drums. I can see it now: 1997: King Crimson "Vindaloo" A hell of a lot less deranged then matching them with pop culture and/or political extremists. :) David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music dmb5561719 at aol dot com Superfinemagneticparticles "Murk" is now out. and I'm actually on this one! ------------------------------ From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:30:04 -0500 Subject: re: Miscellany >Anyone know who this guy Holger Czukay is? I keep hearing aboutq him, but >have no idea who or what he is, but would love to know. >From the group Can, however all I can do is recomend the collaborations with David Sylvian. Plight and Premonition & Flux and Mutability >My idea for the next Fripp collaboration: >Buchanan/Fripp '96! Bite your tounge! That's not funny. David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music dmb5561719 at aol dot com Superfinemagneticparticles "Murk" is now out. and I'm actually on this one! ------------------------------ From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:30:08 -0500 nting on the back cover of Starless and Bible Black is a >reproduction taken from a book entitled "A Humament" which consists of >overpaintings of every page in the Victorian novel "A Human Document." >Sorry, I can't give you the artist's name offhand, perhaps someone can find >it. I saw it at a design exhibition quite by chance several years a go in >Klagenfurt (Austria) and have never heard of it nor seen it since. There is a copy of a limited ed. reproduction of the book at Zimmerli Museum in New Brunswick, N.J. David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music dmb5561719 at aol dot com Superfinemagneticparticles "Murk" is now out. and I'm actually on this one! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:49:04 -0600 (CST) From: Bradley Earl Shelbourn <00111549 at bigred dot unl dot edu> Subject: collaborations of late people have been throwing around ideas for potential RF collaborations...i have 2 words: DIAMANDA GALAS ------------------------------ From: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is (Orn Orrason) Subject: Thrak sound and Ladies of the road Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 01:30:27 +0000 (GMT) "Gordon Emory Anderson" has written in response to my questioning of Thrak's sounYes, I would like to hear Thrak on LP but I guess it is difficult to find. The Technics is however not a piece of junk. It's sound quality is quite good for a CD player. When I bought it in the year 1989 I compared it to many other players and it was clearly the best sounding player in the mid- price range (DM 1300 =3D USD 1000). I have recently compared it to Micromega Stage 1 and it compared well, was not in any way worse but different. What THRAK lacks is more openness in the midrange and more dimensionality. I agree that B Boom sounds good. Fripp used to lay emphasisi on using the right frequency in order to seperate instruments (bandwidth allocation) but I think he has forgotten that principle which just makes KC 1995 more difficult to listen to. --------------------------- I wonder why people favor RED and Discipline so much. In my view Islands, Starless and Bible black, In the Wake og.. are all more exciting. And regarding sound quality, Islands just sounds wonderful on my LP player (Linn Sondek), it's spacious and voices are as sweet as an old banana. Yesterday I listened to Ladies of the road and it really made the day. I think Thela Hun Ginjeet means "bla bla bla " --=20 ************************************************************** * Orn Orrason E.E. Univ. Iceland - Systems Engineering lab * * Tel +354 525 4703 Fax +354 525 4937 em: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is * ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:33:48 -0700 (MST) From: sgoodman at primenet dot com (Steve Goodman) Subject: ET: Holdsworth, Fripp, and UK edumark at ix dot netcom dot com (chris hoard ) had put forth his queries about the above. As to my best interpolation or knowledge (whichever works best)/// >On "In The Dead Of Night" UK digest, a certain Mr. Wilco Barg quotes a >source close to John Wetton that, due to Holdsworth's refusal to >participate in the new UK project now being recorded, RF and another >guitarist will be guesting on some tracks. As far as I know, this is only >rumour and speculation--and on that note... First and foremost, I've understood that Allan Holdsworth has been suffering for a number of years with a severe enough case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome to keep him from working much at all. I believe this has been the case since the late 80's. >I suppose this isn't outside of the realm of the possible, as RF was >originally involved in the project before the first UK album, according to >Eddie Jobson, and agreed to participate only if it was to be called "The >League of Gentlemen," and *not* KC. Fripp bailed out at the last minute ?for religious/personal reasons. This might make a lot more sense to me if the collaborations with multiple artists in the mid-late 70's had borne no results. Thinking back, I recall UK as having been released in 1978. Somewhat later that year, Bowie's "Heroes" was released. At this time RF was in the process of producing "Sacred Songs" for Daryl Hall, though it wasn't released until several years later. To say nothing of the preparations for "Exposure", and his involvement with the Gurdjieff/Bennett/Claymont processes. I don't know if that sheds more light on his potential UK involvement or non-involvement with UK, either in the 70s or now. It certainly shows a little of how BUSY RF was during that period, to say the least. On another subject, I have to voice my ultimate disappointment with the CD release of Exposure, as well as The League of Gentlemen; I had grown to enjoy the original mixes very well, thank you very much! And, since an old girlfriend somewhere in the West US stole my vinyl copy of Exposure, the old mix is lost. Unless! Was there ever a CD release of the original mix of Exposure? I'd be very interested in finding it if it exists. S. +======================================+ | Download the Loop Of the Week via | http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "If you wish for Freedom - even the lesser Freedom - | you must be ready to pay a big price." | - G. I. Gurdjieff (1877-1949) +======================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:00:59 -48000 From: Richard Reames Subject: Cover of Court Album I would like to learn more about the painting of the man inside the album I have had a remakable experence with a person who looked vary much simular on the day soulstis of summer 1976. please what is Known about this Person? Please respond to me E-Mail Richard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 07:47:41 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: In The Court Of The Crimson Lark's Tongue...er...I Think Andrew Suber wrote... > Has anyone noticed this? The drummer for ICCK, Giles, used a set of > riffs and themes throughout the album. They appear over and over in > different times and different structures. Yes, but one has to draw a fine distinction between using repeated themes and references to earlier patterns, and simply only being able to do one thing well. Fripp has been quoted as 'despairing' of Giles because 'all he wanted to be was a rock and roller'. Reading between the lines, that sounds like he was after a percussionist who could do more than simply hammer out a 4/4 rhythm with those little rolling fills that Giles threw in everywhere. I don't dislike Giles' contribution to ITCOTCK but I can see that his style wouldn't have lended itself to something more musically adventurous. Oh, and in reference to Antoine W. Caron who stated that the list was getting boring, I really have to agree. Tuning drums and guitars is all tedious enough, but now we appear to be getting into the world of My Hifi Can Beat Up Your Hifi which is arguably much worse. *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 09 Mar 96 18:58:31 EST From: Barrie Sillars <100763 dot 1142 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Soundscapes at QEH, 9th March 1996 Fripp has been in residence at the Queen Elizabeth Hall Foyer, London between 7th to 10th March as part of the "Now You See It" series of events. Saturdays was a marathon performance from 1pm until 10pm. I witnessed the first couple of hours or so. Soundscapes is probably the best way of seeing Fripp as musician perform. Within the context of King Crimson his performance is part of a group endeavour, far away, remote within the shadows. Soundscapes offers the audience a rare chance to be part of the musicians world, only feet away from the performer, without the usual barriers. The audience sat in front of Fripp and his bank of equipment attentive, or at the side at tables drinking coffee reading, or quietly chatting. We are now fairly familiar with the set-up for such performances. Fripp has personalised it somewhat by placing photographs on top of one of his TC2290's. Probably family, but this is no concern of ours. Fripp would play for a while, pressing buttons, pushing pedals, setting up loops and then at some point he would put down his guitar and walk off to the side for a cup of tea or coffee letting the technology take over. It was quite amusing seeing the audience staring intently at this bank of inanimate equipment during such breaks. It was however nice to see that Fripp is upholding the great British tradition within the work place for the required tea break. During one such break he even sat down and filed his nails! What of the music! Well it's all down to chance really. One piece was jagged, another bell like and another calming. Soundscapes is always a hit or miss affair. Fripp with his experience and control usually ensures there are more hits than misses. I cannot think of another musician who can achieve so much >from so little. Brian Eno and Howie B popped in for a few minutes prior to their attendance at a Symposium on the future of music which was being held next door. On sale during this series of performances was "Radiophonics", volume 1 of the 1995 series of Soundscapes. In contrast to last years "A Blessing of Tears", this recording contains more of the "jagged" type of Soundscapes. As usual it is beautifully presented with full notes and credits. The programme for the Soundscapes event had a little blurb on the background to the upcoming performances. The last paragraph stated enticingly "King Crimson..... release an album of live improvisations, THRaK aTTaK in May. A European tour follows in June". We wait! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:23:29 +0100 Subject: Holger Czukay (ET264) From: removed at users dot request (GW) Gideon B Banner wrote in ET 264: -- Anyone know who this guy Holger Czukay is? I keep hearing about him, but -- have no idea who or what he is, but would love to know. Holger Czukay (born '38) was the bassplayer of the german progrock-band CAN, which was very popular in the 70ies. Ciao GW removed at users dot request or removed at users dot request ------------------------------ From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:51:07 -0500 Subject: The Michael Brook connection (was Re: YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!!) In a message dated 96-03-09 21:25:06 EST, you write: >Thanks for connecting the dots. Brook is...the KC producer?(I know I Played on: Ambient 4: On Land by Brian Eno Music for Films III (also Eno) 4th World, Vol. II: Dream Theory in Malaya by Jon Hassell Power Spot by Jon Hassell The Surgeon of the Night Sky... by Jon Hassell Damage by Sylvian & Fripp (and was the solo opening act on the tour) Is credited in the liner notes to the Joshua Tree by U2. Captive by Brook and the Edge had a song featuring the unknown S. O'Conner. (can't spell her first name...) Has a few solo albums of his own. 1st was is called Hybrid, produced by Eno. Also opened a show for John Cale at NYU. Played with Cale. At the end of the show, performed with Lou Reed & Sterling Morrison (Velvet Underground) on stave with Cale. Has nothing to do with the M person. :) >should know this. And U. Srinivas is the name of the album? or another >artist? >-- Dream. U. Srinivas is an Indian Mandolin player. On Real World, Peter Gabriel's label. Now stop whatever you're doing and run out and buy all of the above. db ------------------------------ From: David Maclennan Subject: Frame By Frame & Greenaway Date: 11 Mar 1996 10:45:33 +1200 The only problem with Chris Koenigsberg's theory about "Frame By Frame" alluding to Peter Greenaway's film "Drowning By Numbers" is that the former preceded the latter by several years..... David Maclennan ------------------------------ From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:38:21 -0500 Subject: Ghost Dance - Giles, Muir & Cunningham Ghost Dance Piano 502 I found this cd by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir & David Cunningham (Flying Lizards). Recorded in 1983, compiled for cd: July 1995. I was told that this tasty little disc originaly came out on Incus. That's right. Derek Bailey's label. The one named after a bone in your ear. Yep. Michael Giles - kit drums, assorted percussion, mouth horns, mouth reeds, bow, voice, keyboard. Jamie Muir - assorted percussion, hand drums, bow, thumb piano, mouthpiece, conch. David Cunningham - loops treatments, guitar, occasional percussion. Why post this to ETalk? I guess the obvious connection would be that Robert Fripp was on the 2nd Flying Lizard's album and on David Cunningham's cd Water. The other two fellows? The names sound familar, yet they don't ring a bell. Sounds like: Percussive strange sounds. Bells. Pots and pans. Wordless vocals. I like it too. David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music dmb5561719 at aol dot com Superfinemagneticparticles "Murk" is now out. and I'm actually on this one! ------------------------------ From: KB305 at aol dot com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 23:03:49 -0500 Subject: Filing ET #264 Like a snake eating an egg, so did I read and attempt to digest ET #264. Highlights: 1. ** THE BANNED LIST ** As of this issue, further discussion along the lines of the benefits of tuning BAGPIPES in the New Standard Tuning, or anything remotely connected with Thela Hun Ginjeet, is *OFF LIMITS*. Posts will be bounced. You have been warned! :-) -- Toby * A good start. Sorry I haven't read my ETs as quickly as I have downloaded and stored them (like so many nuts for a squirrel). Sounds like I've missed some interesting discussion. 2. About NST: Tune your guitar, or any other instrument, any way you want. I do. Fripp does. Being that none of us ARE actually Fripp, it does no good to ask us why he tunes as he does. 3. Pagan Idolatry and worshipping the past: Example 1. Subject: Fripp, Bruford to Guest in UK Reunion??? Nahhh... >>By many accounts RF and JW are still converse, get together, so the prospect of a KC/UK collaboration is not without precendent Example 2. Subject: Mike Giles in Double Trio? >>I was looking back in the "Modern Drummer" issue with Mastellotto and Bruford, and was suprised to read that Michael Giles auditioned for the double trio right after Mastellotto did (Pat stuck around to meet him, and saw him unloading his cymbals from his car, still attached to the stands!) We know Ian McDonald was scheduled to particioate in Red-era doings. Fripp has said at one time or another all former members have approached him about working together again. Could a reunion tour of the original band be a possibility at some point? A comparatively low-tech antidote to the Thrak attack? There is no question that Fripp always has held the first edition of the band close to his heart, and there's no reason why there can't be more than one King Crimson extant at one given time. Middle age can be a wonderful thing, especially when you KNOW you need not prove anything to anyone anymore! Just a thought... * Fripp has explained repeatedly that KC is an idea. To my understanding, this idea takes its audible form in the qualities of the people playing in the group. Reuniting 1969-era KC would mean nothing unless the idea of KC required that line-up to play it. I believe that if that were the case, Fripp would have done so already. Since we have current documentation to describe the current nature of the KC idea (Thrak, for example), then it seems unlikely that messrs. Lake, Giles, et.al., have the qualities necessary to manifest the KC idea into sound. I believe that KC is not about nostalgia. The future might prove me wrong. We all hold CotCK in high regard, but seeing that same lineup reformed makes as much sense to me as a Monkees reunion. 4. Self-examination: >>>From: "Caron, Antoine" Subject: Boring... Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 09:45:00 EST Please everybody: I think ET is getting big and boring. Why? Too much knick- knack, not enough passion. We thrive on the "banal" in the middle of the extraordinary. Here's a suggestion: why don't we start a series on "Great Crimson/Fripp moments" in which a person tries to put in words an intense experience related to our favorite obsession. It could be just listening to a tune driving down the highway, going to a concert, meeting a band member (I have my doubts about this one!), anything goes. The only rule is to illustrate how this band touches us, changes our lives. Isn't it one of the main reasons for this newsletter to exist? Antoine W. Caron caron at biotech dot lan dot nrc dot ca P.S. Don't get me wrong, I like what Dan (reviews) and Tefkros (poll)are doing. Please newcomers, read the FAQ and search the back-issues and stop asking the same questions over and over * I believe that such a suggestion would only produce more 'knick-knack'. Fripp has described his aim in terms of that sublime moment when music 'leans over and takes us into its confidence'. That is an experience for the musician, and it may or may not translate into the same kind of experience for the listener. It sounds like Antoine's idea would be an attempt to put into words our own listening experience when KC took us, as individuals, into its confidence, so to speak, and such experiences would mean nothing to the outside observer. My enlightening moment with KC has nothing to do with yours. I'm glad that you have had one, however. 5. >>>From: lordabay at pipeline dot com (michaeldamianjeter) Hello, folks. A few responses to some things which have appeared. In #262, recengni at athens dot net described the legendary rumored collaboration b/t Emerson, Lake, Hendrix &Mitchell or Palmer as "pathetic." I believe a great deal of ELP was self-indulgent bs, and I think the only thing Carl Palmer had going for him was a big set(sorry; I know drummers think he walks on water), but it is beyond me how a collaboration b/t Hendrix and Emerson could be described as "pathetic." What am I missing? Also, Sasha Alain Wolf(Fripp at uclink3 dot berkley dot edu) raised a thread of possible collaborations. In the Yes newsgroup, many people talk about a desire to see a female vocalist to work with J. Anderson. michaeldamianjeter There, by the waterside Here, where the lens is wide You&me, By the sea Taken in Tranqulity I am a Camera--St. Trevor of the Horn * See #3 above. What are you missing? 6. The best part of #264, for me: >As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. >Albert Einstein (1879=961955) 7. The next best part: >>>Subject: New Standard Tooning Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:28:01 -0500 (EST) First of all, I'd like to correct a number of recent posts concerning the new standard tuning that seem to all be making the same mistake. Everyone seems to assume a linear diachronic modality of tone waveform for isotropic scale flux in the NST, but remember- this tuning only works in standard discrete modulation. All thhis talk of tuning drums and whatnots to the NST must remember the interval composits rule of chord segmentation: that all chord consruction across diachronic polyphones must even out with harmonic meter sequences REGARDLESS OF TUNING- so you see, the guitar is the ONLY INSTRUMENT that can be effectively tuned to the NST. Now, I know to most of you that just sounds like a lot of jargon, but the more sedulous musicologists on the list will know what I'm talking about. I hope that clears things up..... * Or, not. This ain't no party, this ain't no disco. Hell, some people don't understand Thela Hun Ginjeet; now this... 7. Sometimes we reveal more than we wish to: >>>Subject: The Mincer I have a theory about what exactly "The Mincer" is about. What I am about to discuss can be a very sensitive topic for many of us, so forgive me if I offend anyone. I believe the song is about a rape about to happen. The murky character of the music gives me a picture of some dark, foggy London street where a Jack-The-Ripper-type is stalking his next victim. When the lyrics set in, he is "reaching" for her and about to "jump" her: This is a very powerful song, even though the subject matter is quite demented. As a male, this is probably the closest I will ever feel to being raped (I sincerely mean this). Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone with this theory. * Why? 8. >>>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:16:59 -0600 (CST) From: Andrew Suber Subject: Phillip Glass's Low, ICCK Here is what I am wondering; will there ever be a "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" symphony? It is already a symphony in the broadest sense, but I think a project between Fripp and Glass could only further clear up the ideas behind LTIA. * There will be one if someone writes it. How is it a symphony? In what way do the ideas behind LTiA need 'clearing up'? >>>I never hear anything about "In the Court of the Crimson King" on this newsletter. I fell that that album is the most finely crafted, mindblowing concept album in the history of rock. It paved the way for everything truly great in progressive rock. It, like most KC work, can not be improved. * So let me get this straight: CotCK can not be improved, but LTiA needs 'clearing up'? Which leads me to #3 above. Nowhere on earth is there a statue of a critic Kevin B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:00:23 +0100 (MEZ) From: Klaus Bergmaier Subject: Fripp on Breathe? I read that RF would play on the new album "Breathe" by Midge Ure. This album should be out by now, at least in the UK. Is it? Why didn't we hear about this collaboration? Best wishes from Austria Klaus BTW: I changed my adress! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:16:55 +0200 From: Tefkros Symeonides Subject: POLL RESULTS AHOY! Okay... this is it... I'm not taking in any more votes (BTW that's the reason I was so late - votes kept coming in and results kept changing!) DA DA DA DUM... Here are the results: # Album Total points No.1 votes Percentage of votes *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Larks' Tongues in Aspic 319 23 18.85 2 Discipline 307 19 18.14 3 Red 298 18 17.61 4 Starless and Bible Black 157 8 9.28 5 Court of the Crimson King 139 7 8.22 6 THRAK 134 4 7.92 7 The Great Deceiver 92 8 5.44 8 Lizard 57 2 3.37 9 Islands 56 1 3.31 10 B'Boom 39 0 2.30 11 USA 31 2 1.83 12 Three of a Perfect Pair 28 1 1.65 13 VROOOM 13 1 0.77 14 Beat 11 0 0.65 15 Earthbound 8 0 0.47 16 In the Wake of Poseidon 3 0 0.18 Just a few comments of mine....at one point Discipline was third and Red took its place, and then Red carried on in its steadily ascending course to reach... NUMBER ONE! But then LTiA prevailed, and Discipline rose from the ashes again. 94 votes were taken in (just 6 short of 100!). I enjoyed this; I hope you did. If you want to have another poll (this time for favorite song, as many have suggested to me), go right ahead. I'm not going to do it though! The torch is passed (to whoever is bored at this time). Best regards, Tefkros Symeonides ------------------------------ From: TwEbB2436 at aol dot com Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:10:58 -0500 Subject: aaaaaaaaaaaaa my girlfriend keeps asking why, while I'm scanning ET, I seem to always chant "...who gives a sh--...who gives a sh--...who gives a sh--..." ? >>watery music >>water remains PAH! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:42:35 +0900 From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (T. Ohsawa) Subject: Matte Kudasai Hi Everyone, In ET 263 Alicia Sepulveda/Pablo asked about the language. Matte Kudasai is Japanese. It means "Please wait". The form used in this particular expression is rather formal or polite: you can use this to a total stranger. You could also use this in a normal coversation: a lady talking to a guy. Judging from the words used by AB such as "she", I assume that "Matte Kudasai" was (is) spoken by a lady in the case of KC lyrics. There can be following rough variations: Matte Wait! man/woman can say this. Matte-ne (will you please) wait. sounds rather feminine but man can also say, implying that the person saying this is seeking an approval Mate Wait! man saying to a stranger, man saying to a non-stranger but he has to say in haste due to some reason, women rarely use it unless she is talking to a good friend of hers with a laugh (joke) Matte Kure Please wait man saying to a junior person (not to elders) Matte Hoshii (I want you to) Please wait neutral but depending on what follows after these words. These are just some examples. This is not a scientific analysis. It's my personal analyses based upon my personal experience and learning. Bye, Tom Tomoyuki Ohsawa http://www.sony.co.jp/InfoPlaza/Berlin/index.html Berlin Project Sony Corporation ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 96 03:14:53 EST From: Michael Peters <100041 dot 247 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Re:Great Crimson/Fripp moments > From: "Caron, Antoine" > Subject: Boring... > We thrive on the "banal" in the middle of the extraordinary. That's right, but of course the extraordinary is not easy to talk about, and talking about it a lot tends to draw it into the realm of the banal. > Here's a suggestion: why don't we start a series on "Great Crimson/Fripp > moments" in which a person tries to put in words an intense experience > related to our favorite obsession. What comes to my mind immediately is the memory of the intense experience I had with 'Red' when it was released, back in 1974 when I was 20. I used to listen to KC records together with a friend. We always celebrated this as it was something special - we lied down on the floor in the dark and turned up the volume, then we listened through the whole record without doing anything else, and allowed the music to carry us away. 'Red' turned out to be too heavy for this kind of listening. We listened to it only very rarely, as listening to it every day would have ruined its effect. Its intensity made me cry every time. It had a profoundly cathartic effect on my nervous system - I actually felt thoroughly cleansed inside after listening to it. I don't have intense moments like this very often nowadays, and I wonder why this is. Do other people who were 20 in the early KC days share the same experience? Is the intensity we felt back then still there, or has it become a little more pale, and why? For me, Thrack is a great piece of music, and I enjoy playing Vrooom with my band, but it does not nearly move me as much as Red moved me 20 years ago. (Some of the soundscapes do however, and I'm really looking forward to the next soundscape CDs.) -M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:46:33 -0600 (CST) From: "I.P.Freely" Subject: Boring, so let's change it! Here's an experience I had en route to Chicago O'Hare Airport from Milwaukee, Wisconsin: I had put in a copy(awful sound quality) of A Young Person's Guide To KC, and "Epitaph" came on. It had been a long time since I had listened to it last, mainly because I always had had a tendency to get very depressed when I heard it. Anyway, when the song came on, I started to cry, because it sounded so beautiful and the words spoke truth. Plus, I was at a very frustrating point in my life, as I still am. So, as the tears flowed, I got off on an exit ramp and what came into my field of vision but the moon, rising up from the horizon and partly obscured by wispy clouds. KC couldn't have picked a better moment to influence the moment. When I thought it was all over, what came on but "Cadence and Cascade," and I started crying even more, especially during the flute solo. Ahh, what a release. Furthermore, to all you fellow men out there who are hung up about crying the way I'm learning not to be, let your "sun child" show. I have a few more experiences to relate(some very bizarre), but I'll keep you people on the edge of your futons by saving them for another time. On a similar note, does anyone know of a Young Persons Guide being available on CD? ------------------------------ From: "John Gamesby" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:41:05 +0000 Subject: Swap: Concise KC I have an unwanted gift of the Concise KIng Crimson brand new still in its wrapper. So I would like to swap for Either Starless and Bible Black, Atmosphere or Lament. EEC only, please contact me privately on email. Regards John ********************************************************** Te Bheag "Foir uisge beatha nan gaidheal" John Gamesby BASF plc Q.C. Labs Seal sands P.O. Box 62 Tel.. +44 (0) 1642 550819 Middlesbrough email