Errors-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #261 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 261 Monday, 26 February 1996 Today's Topics: Thrak sound Multiple volume pedals for one guitar? Little Fluffy Clouds, Computers, Drums Belew doesn't use NST -- What's up with that? Female King Crimson Fans/One Of Them Responds Re: Fripp and ORB Web Pages - Reviews re: ET Post about FFWD meaning of Larks, Starless... Sylvian/Fripp bootleg CD Theory 101... South Bank Southscapes Islands / Mincer Guitars in Multiple Tunings RE: Fripp music on NPR SaBB album rarity? Re: Lark's Tongue Explication LTIA, THGJ Lark's Tongues Explanation Administrivia: POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Visit ET on the web at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et For all administrative issues, such as change of address, withdrawal from the list, etc., send a message to the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ** If you want to opt for new 'ET BULLETIN' service, where instead of the whole digest you receive a short email announcing the latest edition is out, and where to read it on the web, email me, toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk, saying: "ET BULLETIN -- YES". ** The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:10:21 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Thrak sound Although I have previously trashed the sound of the early 80s stuff, I have to disagree with Neil Corkindale's statement that the THRAK sound sucks. I too have invested quite a chunk into my system (Thiel/McCormack/Sonic Frontiers/Audio Alchemy/Straigthwire Stuff), but I would suggest to Neil that the problem may be with your room. If you haven't controlled some of those resonances and echo, some recordings may sound great but some terrible, even with a great system such as yours. A good idea is to get a test recording and an SPL meter to see if the response is flat. When I first bought my system, it tended to sound shrill on certain recordings; a partial solution was to get a hold of some "Room Tunes" or other such devices. I now think THRAK sounds quite good for the most part, particularly B'boom and Secret Garden. Also, if your system is new, it may have not broken in yet. Or perhaps you know all this already and just still think the sound sucks! To each...... -Emory. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 13:13:48 EST From: david at visix dot com (David Charlap) Subject: Multiple volume pedals for one guitar? >I remember Fripp saying something in an interview about using "a >couple of volume pedals" in his setup. What can you do with two (or >more) that you can't do with one? Steve Howe, when recording "Yours Is No Disgrace" for The Yes Album used two volume pedals. The guitar's signal was split into two channels, with one volume pedal for each. One went to the left and one to the right. This is how he achieved that strange stereo panning effect for a part of the song (if you've heard it, you know what I mean.) There are certainly other things you can do as well. You can split the guitar sound into many channels, and run each through a separate set of effects. A volume pedal on each channel is one way to control how much of each effect will get into the final mix. You have to do something like that if you want to vary the levels continuously while playing and you're live (so it can't be post-processed in.) ------------------------------ From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Little Fluffy Clouds, Computers, Drums Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:28:52 -0800 (PST) > Does anyone know of the specific song Mr.Fripp contributed to on the above > mentioned ORB CD? I have ORB's LIVE 93(Evil 39) and the song "Little Fluffy > Clouds" on disc 1 contains some guitar work that sounds very Frippy. He is "Little Fluffy Clouds" uses samples from "Electric Counterpoint", composed by Steve Reich and arranged for up to 11 multitracked guitars and 2 basses - all to be played by Pat Metheny. Steve Reich is often called a "minimalist" though his work predates those of Philip Glass, Brian Eno, and Robert Fripp. At any rate, Electric Counterpoint is a wonderful three-movement piece I hightly recommend to anyone who likes "crafty guitar"-type stuff though I must emphasize Steve Reich was composing this kind of stuff *long before* Fripp and Eno started experimenting with delays and such. Quite a departure for Pat Metheny, who as a natural improviser found it challenging to confine himself to the pre-notated lines. The chords that come in about 3 minutes into "Little Fluffy Clouds" are the opening chords to the piece which state the harmony. The repeating sampled guitar riff is from the third movement ("Fast") of the piece. Interestingly, the original repeating figure was in 6/8 time, but clever sample editing altered the rhythm to 4/4 time. Good luck finding the album Different Trains/Electric Counterpoint. Last I heard there was a university classical guitar ensemble that was performing Electric Counterpoint live. > What computer programs would this forum recommend for both appreciation and > composition? I own "Jump" by Bowie, and "Headcandy" with music by Eno, but > I am at a loss for any good programs for composition/creation. Also,if > there are any other good appreciation titles, please share with us. Max is a wonderful MIDI construction kit distributed by Opcode for the Macintosh. I understand there are also versions for the NeXT and for Silicon Graphics workstations. It is a very complex program but it comes with a easy-to-follow tutorial that will give you a lot of ideas. The book Interactive Music Systems offers a number of Max patches geared towards interactive music composition and performance. > Maybe someone should try to tune their guitar to sound like a drum set, eh? I'm sure you've heard and seen Adrian Belew play percussion on guitar synth by now. John McLaughlin recorded a MIDI percussion piece performed on MIDI guitar on his latest CD _The Promise_. -- Paolo Valladolid *----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ *----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at waynesworld dot ucsd dot edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:54:19 -0500 From: STONE967 at aol dot com Subject: Belew doesn't use NST -- What's up with that? After reading Belew interview in the most recent Guitar Magazine I wondered if anybody knows why he doesn't use NST and maybe more importantly how does Mr. Fripp feel about that? Also does Fripp object to Fingerstyle Guitar? Oh yeah, transcriptions -- anybody have tab for "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream" or "People"? Thanks guys and gals. Have a groovy day. STONE967 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:45:35 -0500 From: ckaratnytsky at nypl dot org Subject: Female King Crimson Fans/One Of Them Responds I have resisted the temptation to respond to the King Crimson gender-issue thing because it leads to making generalizations, which are only that. But the thread comes up again, so I'm de-lurking to offer my two cents. The reason there may be fewer female KC fans than male may have something to do with the intensity of the music. I'm not so sure about this, though, as there are plenty of women who love Beethoven, who is nothing if not intense. But, if we bring the discussion to the realm of progressive rock--the intensity expressed by the electric guitar (as opposed to the concert grand) may offer a more...what?...difficult? musical experience than most People (not just women) are interested in signing up for. When the electric guitar happens to be the one played by Robert Fripp, then we're on an entirely different level of playing and listening. We're talking about a Primal musical experience. I don't need to rhapsodize here, you boys all know what I mean. There are fewer King Crimson fans than there are U2 fans, or Rolling Stones fans, so there are going to be fewer women among them in any event. And rock music in general is male-dominated, in terms of playing as well as listening. Is the ratio of male-to-female KC fans really that far off? Anyway, I've been listening to the music since about '77 or '78, when I was 17 or 18. This mirrors the male fan experience of my generation, I imagine. You have to search Really hard to find me in the audience, but I'm there. I don't have the 3-month headache look, I have the 3-month orgasm look. It's one of the benefits of the New Standard Chromosome. (Ooops! Spilled the beans...) Sorry about the bandwidth, Christine Karatnytsky Billy Rose Theatre Collection New York Public Library for the Performing Arts ckaratnytsky at nypl dot org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:13:13 -0500 (EST) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Re: Fripp and ORB I think what the reviewer meant was that Fripp did work with ORB members on the album _FFWD_ (and I guess you could say FFWD is the name of the "group" too: it stands for the members' names: Fripp, F____, W____, and D____. Sorry I don't know the names). Although Fripp certainly may have done work with ORB in the past; but I don't know of it. I know someone very into house music and its subgenres (techno, ambient, tribal, etc.) who just bought a double-CD compilation called "Trance Europe" (or something like that: can't remember the exact name). As it included one song from FFWD, I decided to record the whole thing. Inside the incredibly detailed booklet is a two- or three-page blurb on Fripp and his work with Crimson (but the writer gets some of the information wrong). If interested, you'll probably find this compilation in either the import section or the ambient/techno section of any good music store. ------------------------------ From: E#KIRKD at ccmail dot ceco dot com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 15:01:27 CST Subject: Web Pages - Reviews Fellow ETers, Work on the new ET web pages continues, and it is time for me to ask for more help from the entire ET community. As part of the new pages, we will have pages covering each King Crimson release, with personnel and track info, courtesy of John Relph's discography, lyrics and reviews. We may also include tabs that I can pluck from past digests. But what this post is about are the reviews. Although I could also pluck relevant reviews by readers from past digests, I'd have to clean them up for the purpose of these pages. So what I'm looking for are reviews, submitted by ET readers, for EVERY track on EVERY album (not collections, or box sets or live albums) that I can include on these pages. For the other stuff (collections, box sets, live albums, singles, videos) I'd like to get reviews that cover the whole thing only. The reviews should be a short paragraph (about as long as this one, max) with YOUR impressions of the track/release. These reviews will give these pages the ET flavor that you get in the digests, so I don't care if the reviews are negative or positive (although I will want to have a positive review for each negative one I use). If you wish you can address differences between reissues or re-masters. So here's a chance for you to listen to some of those older records once again (like you really needed an excuse). You can send in reviews for as many as you like. I will have to pick one or two to use if I get too many for the same track/release, so don't ignore the more obscure ones. Use the following format when you mail them to me: Your Name: Email: Track: (blank if for entire release) Release: Review: There's a lot to cover, and whatever doesn't get reviewed we'll try to fill over time (visitors of the pages will be encouraged to send in reviews to fill any gaps). So there is no deadline on this request, but whatever gets in sooner will be considered over what comes in later. Once the pages are up you'll be able to see for yourself what's left to review. Hope to hear from you soon! Dan DanKirkd at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:01:15 -0500 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: re: ET Post about FFWD on Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:33:21 -0500 (EST), leslabb at postoffice dot ptd dot net (Les Labbauf) wrote >In ET 258 Andy Basire posted a review from a British Music Mag concerning THRAK > >>> But what care we for the opinions of a speed-addled punk parody? >>> Even allowing for past work with the Orb on _FFWD_ and The Future > >Does anyone know of the specific song Mr.Fripp contributed to on the above >mentioned ORB CD? I have ORB's LIVE 93(Evil 39) and the song "Little Fluffy >Clouds" on disc 1 contains some guitar work that sounds very Frippy. He is >also mentioned in the guest list printed on the sleeve. > >Les FFWD has Frippertronic soundscapes from the beginning to the end of this CD. Highly recomended! David Beardsley dmb5561719 at aol dot com * * * * * * * * * * * * * IMMP music recordings: * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this * * * * * * * * * * * * * strange beautiful music. * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK! music. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:33:16 GMT From: bill pannifer Subject: meaning of Larks, Starless... In response to a couple of questions about album titles (and sorry if people already know this), Larks Tongues in Aspic is a bizarre variety of chocolate offered in an early Monty Python sketch (along with Crunchy Frog and various things that explode in your mouth).It's also on one of the LPs. Starless and Bible Black is a Dylan Thomas quote from Under Milk Wood. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:18:42 +0000 (GMT) From: "P. Thompson" Subject: Sylvian/Fripp bootleg CD A few months ago at a record fair I saw a bootleg CD (could it have been a double CD?) of a Sylvian/Fripp concert. If I remember correctly it was Italian and 'Darshan' was mis-spelt 'Darsham'. Has anybody bought this CD and if so what is the quality like? My experience of bootlegs is that they are generally best left alone as the sound quality is usually low and the price high (this one was 25 pounds sterling). Yes, I know that bootlegging is reprehensible but the prospect of a live version of 'Jean the Birdman' was almost too much to resist. Peter Thompson, Wolfson College, Cambridge. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:26:36 -0500 From: tomhowie at nylink dot org Subject: Theory 101... Professor Olivier Mlhomme elucidates... > Everything is getting on my nerve this days. Yeah, really, take this NST > tuning thing for drum, for example. In my opinion, you forget > something that I have been experimenting on How a Drummer Can > Ruin Your Music, whan he (or she) want to be smart and tune is > drum... No. Drum can not tune to NST. Why?. You do not seem to > comprehend that NST is not notes in itself, but interval > relationship between strings with the whole concept of it on > guitar, the way notes fall or fall not under your fingers that > allow you to do things you could not . Oh, you use the *frets*! I thought the relationships between the modal roots would create a consonant bitonality through sostenuto application of the partials! How silly of me.... > If some eh... guy (or lady) > tune his (or her) drum in C, G, D, A etc etc, then if you play > in the key of, let us say C#, (or, in fact, in 6 major scale, > and at least 20 different minor scale, not to mention countless > modes- I found several hundreds of modes that you can not use > anymore) then the drum is OUT OF TUNE. GREAT IMPROVEMENT!!! Really > SMART. Wait a minute, I'm jotting this down... "being in a DIFFERENT KEY is *actually* being OUT OF TUNE". Damn! Where's my DT-10... > I had a few time problems with drummer in bands of mine > who tuned their drums, because, Unless you are T. BOZZIO, and > then, you have every note of the chromatic scale (12) then, > if the music is not in the key of the drum (wich is easy, you > donUt have so many toms to have different tuning avalable) the drummer > is most of time out of tune (again). Hold on, you're going too fast for me... "Bozzio: only drummer on earth allowed to play 12 drums." I'd better sell a couple.... > It sounds horrible. Thanks to the > smart guy who wants to play smartness. Tuning to NST is not > only senseless on a musical point of view to a drummer, but > it also offer to ruin all the music of your band (except if all > the music is played all time long in one only key). Drummers > never stop to amaze me. I've got it! Take the heads *OFF* the drums! Then we won't be tempted to *tune* them! Is the exam essay or muptiple-choice? "That being said..." I think I'll listen to some Bill Bruford's Earthworks now.... Tomas "More Than Gerbil, Less Than Man" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:51:54 +0000 From: e dot mayall at ic dot ac dot uk Subject: South Bank Southscapes ET, A leaflet came through my door yesterday advertising "Now You See It - a Weekend Break of Tailor-made One-offs, an Opportunity to Explore Music of the Future." 7-10 March. One of the items is as follows: King Crimson founder ROBERT FRIPP is in residence with his SOUNDSCAPES for the first time in the UK as part of NOW YOU SEE IT. Fripp began pioneering his fusion of rock and ambient music 25 years ago with FRIPPERTRONICS, a tape dealy system be developed with Brian Eno. SOUNDSCAPES are the best way Fripp knows of "making a lot of noise with one guitar". They are based on the combined principle of delay, repetition and hazard using a complex digital/loop system to slowly build and then reconstruct continuously ebbing and flowing tides of solo guitar sounds. ADMISSION FREE I can't help feeling that "now you see it" suggests "now you don't" and Bob won't actually be there....but it's got to be worth subjecting yourself to nine solid hours of 'scapes, even if there's no-one actually playing them. If anyone knows any more....... Ed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:09:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Richard Beck Subject: Islands / Mincer >From recent traffic: > I also have been wondering which cover [of Islands] is original. > Mine is japanese press and the cover is "Starry" cover and > INNER BAG is fold out "Blotchy"(!) > Is it Japanese only format ? > > Jung-Ki Jun I have a copy of Islands (bought second hand about 10 years ago in the UK) which also has the 'Starry' cover with the 'Blotchy' inner sleeve. The inner sleeve is not fold-out, but has a ripped edge which suggests that it once was and has been torn by the previous owner. I had always wondered about this, and I guess your post confirms my theory. > From: John dot P dot Mohan at lawrence dot edu > > What's the story with the end of "The Mincer" on SaBB? It just cuts out as if > the tape had run right off the reel. Is that what actually happened? It's one > of my favourite tracks on the album and I've been wondering if there's a > "complete" version of it somewhere. Please send replies directly to me unless > you feel it's appropriate to post them. > > Thanks, > JP. See also 'One More Red Nightmare' from 'Red'. Another truncated ending just as it reaches the zenith. This is a complete halt, rather than the slowing down/breaking up of 'The Mincer'. On this same subject, I saw (admittedly a long time ago) a discography which didn't mention 'Mincer' as being present on 'SaBB'. Was it wrong, or does it only appear on some pressings ? If I may have a couple more inches of bandwidth, I am looking forward to seeing the 'Soundscapes' gig(s) here in London. I mentioned them to my wife and she said 'I'm not going, I'll go shopping instead'. This was after I had got home and listened to 'Evening Star' (Fripp/Eno), 'Red', and 'Damage' (Sylvian/Fripp) before telling her the good news (!). I (IMhumbleO) think an en-masse ET trip is in order. 'til next time rb London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:33:50 -0500 (EST) From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Guitars in Multiple Tunings To just briefly comment on the thread about bands using both NST and "old-style" tuning simultaneously, I'd like to point out that SOnic Youth (granted, not the most appropriate band for this list) has lugged around any number of guitars in different tunings on tour. Sanjay Krishnaswamy skrishna at opal dot tufts dot edu skrishna at diamond dot tufts dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 09:34:01 EST From: "Chuck Benz, benz at npss dot enet dot dec dot com 22-Feb-1996 0929" Subject: RE: Fripp music on NPR I wasn't going to ask, but since tj seems to have an in with NPR... The other day, I thought I heard a fraction of LTIA in between stories on NPR, but it was "unplugged" - perhaps not even Fripp playing it. Did I imagine it, or is there something of that nature about ? (And I'm pretty sure it was NOT the brief segment of Fripp warming up before a concert on an unamplified gibson that appears in the TOAPP video - the sound was a normal accoustic guitar). If no one can figure it out, maybe tj can check with his NPR sources. \chuck benz ------------------------------ From: "W. M. Heinrichs" Subject: SaBB album rarity? Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:28:49 -0500 (EST) Hello, My printing of Starless and Bible Black has the labels backward on the vinyl platter. No, its not written backwards nor upside down, but side A songs are listed on the side containing side B's music. Was this a common occurance in some releases? Thanks, -Bill PS Thanks for your efforts Toby. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:25:59 -0500 From: dalane at oxygen dot bbn dot com (Dave Lane) Subject: Re: Lark's Tongue Explication Organization: BBN Domain Corporation ITS!... Next Wave Festival submitted: >Re the Lark's Tongue's in Aspic title and where it came from : >Monty Pythons Flying Circus did a sketch on their original TV season that >was based around a box of chocolates, Lark's Tongues in Aspic was one of the >flavours. This sketch was extremely funny and was broadcast the year before >the KC recording came out. Not exactly. You're apparently remembering the "Crunchy Frog" sketch about the Whizzo Chocolate Company. Here is a transcript -- stolen from http://203.0.168.99/wwwsites/python/sketches/crunchy.htm) -- of the relevant portion of said piece: | Milton: We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh Cornish ram's bladder, | emptied, steamed, flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a fondue and | garnished with lark's vomit. | | Praline: Lark's vomit? | | Milton: Correct. | | Praline: Well it don't say nothing about that here. | | Milton: Oh yes it does, on the bottom of the box, after monosodium | glutawate. | | Praline: (looking) Well I hardly think this is good enough. I think it | would be more appropriate if the box bore a large red label warning lark's | vomit. | | Milton: Our sales would plummet. Nothing about tongues there. Not that Fripp is unaware or uninfluenced by Python; his piece "Haaden II" from "Exposure" has a backwards sample of Graham Chapman from the Flying Sheep Sketch. (At least the original LP does, I've never heard the CD.) But what the hell do I know? I can't even tell the difference between Whizzo butter and a dead crab. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:10:09 -0500 (EST) From: Darius Subject: LTIA, THGJ > From: Next Wave Festival > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:17 AEST > Monty Pythons Flying Circus did a sketch on their original TV season that > was based around a box of chocolates, Lark's Tongues in Aspic was one of the > flavours. This sketch was extremely funny and was broadcast the year before > the KC recording came out. With all due respect, I must correct you on this: the flavor was "Crunchy Frog Surprise," and its ingredients, besides a tiny uncooked frog, "lightly killed", included a dash (or some small amount) of "lark's VOMIT", not lark's tongues. Others mentioned in #260 that "lark's tongues in aspic" is a form of "delicacy," and I've never thought the title had any greater significance than that, merely a whimsy of KC's/Fripp's (the CD lists all band members as the composers of pt.1, and of Fripp alone of pt.2). The classical composer Eric Satie once named a work of his "Three Pieces in the Shape of a Pear" simply because someone told him his music had no shape. I think it's okay to look for metaphorical meaning in LTIA's title, but I'd caution against making too much of it; very likely they named it so on a lark. =) > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:18:03 -0600 (CST) > From: Norma Heinisgirde > Subject: Groon/Thela Hun Ginjeet > I was wondering if anybody knew what the spoken words were during 'Groon' > right after the climactic point. Also, does anybody know the words that > Adrian Belew sings in 'Thela Hun Ginjeet?' I know that he sings at least > : ". . .Thela Hun Ginjeet. . . .Deep in the jungle streams. . ." > Also, anyone know what 'Thela Hun Ginjeet' means ? I believe the lyrics run, "Watery maid / Thela Hun Ginjeet / Watery maid / Deep in the jungle streams" -- and I must thank you for that last one, I wasn't sure on that myself. :) DOES 'Thela Hun Ginjeet' mean anything, or is it simply an anagram as others have stated? Also, someone back in #257 or #258 (sorry, don't have the issue or the name of the inquirer anymore) was asking about the "sampled" spoken-word sections in THGJ -- I've always believed that those parts are original to the song, not samples, and that the speaker is Adrian Belew. Can anyone verify that? Thank you for your time Darius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:24:44 -0500 From: JRStoat at aol dot com Subject: Lark's Tongues Explanation Re: >>Monty Pythons Flying Circus did a sketch on their original TV season that >>was based around a box of chocolates, Lark's Tongues in Aspic was one of the >>flavours. This sketch was extremely funny and was broadcast the year before >>the KC recording came out. To dispel some of the confusion over the title's origins, Monty Python did not use Lark's Tongues in Aspic as the name of one its confections in that sketch. They did, however, refer to lark's vomit. Specifically: We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a fondue and garnished with lark's vomit. Eric ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #261 ********************************