From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSat Jan 20 23:36:12 1996 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 02:29:24 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #255 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 255, Friday, 19 January 1996 Today's Topics: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #239 Roy Harper Album w/Bill Bruford Available on CD Clear-liner CD boxes vs. regular ones Fripp and the numbers the potential in the VROOOM disc ET: Stolen Crimson Lick. The Red Phantom label Belew vis a vis Zappa Help with Guitar as Orchestra Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #254 change address Needs a guide to Craft albums Topic Not related to ET Re: Chrodal Drums Re: welll... (The Bridge Between is Mostly Live) New to list/David Cross?/Earthworks? Drums: Mono-Tonality Redux LoCG Live! re-> Heat [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW Home: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/et/ Topic Index: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/topics-index/etopics.html FAQ: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/faq.html FTP The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:26:13 -0600 (CST) From: Le Monsieur Damon Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #239 Hello. I was recently browsing at CDNow (cdnow.com) and noticed some major discrepancies under the biographical information concerning Fripp. Here is an excerpt: "God Save the Queen / Under Heavy Manners" appeared the following year [1980] and in 1981, he assembled a new lineup of King Crimson. While that band recorded and performed, he also led a new band which borrowed its name from his first group, the League of Gentlemen. After releasing three albums, the new version of King Crimson broke up in 1984; the League of Gentlemen split soon afterward. Soon afterward???? Kind of fishy, huh? I think I'll write a letter to the management @cdnow. Damon Capehart | The Society of Physics Students at UTD dcapehar at utdallas dot edu | (yes, even though I'm actually a math major) -- Call the Physics Friends Hotline. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Kirkdorffer Date: 16 Jan 96 16:00:44 EDT Subject: Roy Harper Album w/Bill Bruford Available on CD *********************************************************** WARNING -- little Crimson info following. But interesting info on a unique thread woven through many 70's English rock bands. *********************************************************** Indeed yes -- the 1975 Roy Harper album, HQ with Bill Bruford, (AND Dave Gilmore, John Paul Jones, Chris Spedding, Dave Cochran, Steve Broughton, Dave Bedford, Ray Warleigh and the Grimethorpe Colliery Band -- is available on CD through Science Friction (contact details below). It comes with a really neat book and no plastic packaging ('cepting the cd!) If you're curious and asking yourself, "Who is this ROY HARPER?" -- you may already know Roy's voice from Floyd song "Have a Cigar," as that's him singing. Also, Led Zep named their 1970 Led Zep III closer "Hat's off to Roy Harper" after him. This Mortal Coil cover his song "Another Day" And Peter Gabriel, David Gilmore, Ian Anderson and Kate Bush also have sung some of Roy's tunes. As you can tell, Roy's been about. Oh yes, he's also recorded with The Nice in '68, Jimi Page in '85 , and played the first free Hyde Park concert in 1968, And he's very much still recording and performing on a regular basis. **How to get CD -- HQ -- link to: http://www.bilpin.co.uk/stormcock/darren.html **For more on Roy Harper, link to: http://www.bilpin.co.uk/stormcock or http://www.helsinki.fi/~akoskine/royharper.html David Kirkdorffer [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:11:55 -0500 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Clear-liner CD boxes vs. regular ones Hi and a happy nu-yeer 2 awl. A while ago some angry poster lamented the use of all-clear plastic CD boxes versus the "original ones"(with black liners for holding the disc, I assume) in that the clear plastic boxes are too rigid and, therefore, less "flexible". If he would like to E-mail me, I would arrange to trade boxes with him even up. Or if anyone out there knows where I can obtain several of these clear boxes commercially, I would also appreciate the post. Cheers, CV [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:34:21 +0100 From: "Riesz, Ferenc" Subject: Fripp and the numbers TTTTThere is no doubt that Fripp is an extremely conscious artist. T I have an idea that his consciousness is reflected in T the fact how his Frippertronics project is connected to T the numbers. This idea occurred to me while reading the cover text of the album "God Save the King". Crimson disbanded in 1974, Fripp began his new project in 1977 (after THREE years) and finished it in 1984 (that is, after SEVEN years). They gave SEVENTY SEVEN gigs. These numbers possess certain meanings in ancient cultures and mythologies. THREE, when connected to time, has following meanings: an act should be repeated three times to occur; three means a definite time period; three time units reflect change and inevitable necessity. (Well, maybe this 'three years' is just a coincidence ...but seven is definitely not.) SEVEN is completeness. God created the world during seven days (including the rest day). Other hints from ancient cultures confirm this meaning. Fripp worked on his Frippertronics project for seven years: "When the seven year commitment completed once again I went into retreat, to allow the future to present itself."--as read on the cover. Then, Fripp started his memorable Guitar Craft courses: a totally new project. SEVENTY SEVEN follows naturally from SEVEN but possesses also a meaning of "many", "endless", "infinity". That is: enough to present a new idea. It is possible that numbers play similar roles in other Fripp projects. Curious about your opinion. RF [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:47:49 -0600 From: cds398 at nwu dot edu (Craig Shepard) Subject: the potential in the VROOOM disc I was listening again to the version of "Thrak" that was put out on the original VROOOM disc late in 1994, and it seems to me that this version is by far the best of any recordings or performances I've heard (B'Boom, Chicago 11/30/95) The song touches music that I haven't heard before, particularly the mass of sound and meshing of apparent chaos of the entire piece. That the return of the main theme is not a complete restatement of the opening, but because of the drums, a continuation of the "jam", is an exciting exploration in musical form. The rest of the CD to me seems to be the most exciting of this new Crimson, not always because of the music, but because of the potentials that Crimson could have. Excepting the last minute beginning with Belew's voice, "When I say stop Continue" is a well-executed improvisation, particularly when you consider the form and direction that the brings about. It seems that these moments stand up to some of the present work of Reggie Workmann, as well as the group improvisations of Miles Davis ("Bitches Brew, etc.). Why the band did not pursue improvisation seriously and instead merely stuck with the old tunes is their business. It's nice to hear the old tunes, and I'm sure it helps both the band's wallets, and the nostalgia of their audience, but it doesn't do much for Music as it exists in the 20th century. I feel that DISCIPLINE, RED, and THE GREAT DECEIVER can be considered along with John Cage, Ornette Coleman, Messaien, and Tristan Murail. If only as water-boys to the linebackers, these albums are in the arena. If anyone has a response, please write to me directly. Craig Shepard [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 00:40:49 EST From: whatthat at nando dot net Subject: ET: Stolen Crimson Lick. Has anyone seen the video game "Total Distortion" by Pop Rocket for Mac or Windows? I have the Windows version, and in the game there is this "inspiration" sub-program of a "virtual beatnik" reciting word salad (I know it sounds weird but it's central to the game). The weirdest thing is that the background music is Bill's closing four bar figure from "The Sheltering Sky" on an infinite loop. If you have the game and you need directions on how to find it (you may find it very nearly first thing in the game) I'll be happy to provide them...please respond privately. Keith R. (cute little Crimson quote worthy of Robert's basket of fresh fruit goes here) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 10:47:48 EST From: david at visix dot com (David Charlap) Subject: The Red Phantom label stehelin at citi2 dot fr (Dominique Stehelin) writes: > >... So, I have found a >Robert Fripp String Quintet album named Soundscape that contain 17 >selections ... > >It's ref. is RPCD 1116. And there is a litle "Red Phantom" (a cracker?). I >am prone to think that it is a bootleg, but I a am not sure. Red Phantom is a bootleg label. I think it's Italian, but I'm not sure. This is why no catalog is going to have it. Therefore, most stores won't be able to get it for you. >There is a >nice booklet with several pictures of R. Fripp and Gunn inside. Photo >credits says "Studio Pixel, Italy". Many R.F. photos inlude the shadow of >a Grand Stick just behind him. The sound is extremely nice, clearer than on >"The Bridge Between". (would you believe, a bootleg with a better quality >than studio album?) I would. Red Phantom does good work. I have one of their Yes bootlegs, and the sound is amazing. I think they patched the sound board or something. >I was recorded during November 1992, but where remains >a complete mystery. As far as i know, there was 3 others "chapter", but >none can be ordered anymore. Where did you get this one? Sometimes you can find a dealer that is willing to order from a bootlegger. If you can't find one, you're going to have to go to lots of record shows in the hopes that the ones you want are found somewhere. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:53:00 -0500 From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Belew vis a vis Zappa Having just listened to the new Belew CD entitled The Guitar As Orchestra a couple times, I find myself comparing it (the first few tracks especially) to the recent Zappa CD Civilization Phaze III (minus the people in the piano that is). I has the same modern classical slant to it, as well as the same kind of mishmash of familiar and unfamiliar sounds, although not quite as inventive in that sense as the Zappa CD. However, the "hidden melodies" are easier to pick out on the Belew making it a more pleasant listen. All in all, I'd say it's very clever, although I can't pretend to understand it. I can't wait for the next one with the animals on it. James Crawford [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:48:33 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Myers Subject: Help with Guitar as Orchestra Hello all: I could use a little help. I have heard a LOT about the Adrian Belew Guitar as Orchestra CD, but not much of a review. Can someone send me a review/opinion of it? Does the guitar synth sound like the beginning of Dinosaur??? Please help a fellow KC nut in distress!!! Thank you! [ Please reply direct to Karl who (I'm sure!) will summarize for us -- Toby ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karl Myers "The standard pop beat is not a wonderfully mophead at udel dot edu advanced thing that we have to be proud of." -BB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:59:53 -0500 From: Christopher John Cole Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #254 Hello all, I wanted to write regarding the Soundscapes bootleg referred to previously. I got this bootleg about a year and a half ago and I also highly recomend the cd if you can find it. The sound quality is equal to the official soundscapes cd though the version of blockhead is nowhere near as mind boggling and fun as the version on the offical cd. Also, a friend of mind bought the cd at a record show two summers ago and while at that show he also bought the videotape fo teh exact same concert. To be honest the video is downright boring and for me tends to detract from the music. Anyway, it appears as if the video was shot in Japan somewhere. Fripp is on the left, Trey is in the middle and then the string quartet is on the right. The beginnign starts with fripp doing his soundscapes and then slowly the string quartet introduces itself into the music and after that trey. The highlight of the video is when Trey does his massive stick solo which is mind boggling. The sound quality of the video was excelletn adn I suspect the cd was made from the video. Just to let you know.. Also, concerning passengers: are the songs from this cd truly from movies or is this another example of Eno making songs for non-existant movies but this time with vocal backup?? Just wondering.. -- Chris "I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and suck my thumb this time, cos there's something I deserve. Love, just love yourself like no one else. Love, it's enough, they can say anything they want but they still can't take that." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:34:07 -0500 From: les_labbauf at postoffice dot ptd dot net (Les Labbauf) In ET 254 Jeremy and Adam discussed the following; JL> Oh, and a former friend and I had a discussion once: every rock band JL> has drums, and eliminating them would be quite a trick. I, however, JL> was pro-drum. I came upon this idea--what if the drums played JL> non-drum samples (electronic, of course)? Then you'd have the drum JL> flavor but a tonal sound. AL> This is not a new concept. Have you heard any of Bruford's Earthworks AL> albums? I have an Art Of Noise concert that I taped off MTV, back when they used to have concerts, that utilized sampled sounds on electronic drums; The female vocalists had apparently sampled their voices and the drummer had his electronic pads tied into them. Instead of hearing drum sounds you heard voices. It made for a wild percussion solo. Les [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 19:54:04 -0800 From: Jung-Ki Jun Subject: change address Hi! I would like to change my e-mail address to jkjun at mail dot skc dot co dot kr And I also like to join the list Subject: 8CD Box Set? I saw the ad in japanese prog magazine Marquee's latest issue. 8CD's in bag shaped hard box. The price is 36,000 Yen(about 350 US$)!! Is it bootleg or official issue? Jung-Ki Jun [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:20:58 +0100 From: "Riesz, Ferenc" Subject: Needs a guide to Craft albums Hi ! Recently I bought "Show of Hands" (SoH, a Guitar Craft album) in the US. Then I found the KC&RF home page (thanks, Toby !! :) with discographies and found that SoH contains mainly previously released material. Only some songs sung by Patricia Leavitt (BTW, who is she ?!) are new. Why ? Is there any difference between the songs on different albums ? Another surprise for me was that the majority of the pieces was written not by Fripp but their style is fairly Frippoid. I would appreciate if someone could introduce me to the Craft albums (let me put it that way: I am in a CD store and notice three Craft albums but have money only for one...). Thanks. RF [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 11:43 EST From: Erickson Subject: Topic Not related to ET I would like to know if anyone out there have any "Live Import" CD's that they are intrested parting with. I can be more specific as to what I'm looking for if you respond to my E-mail address directly. JBE [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Jan 1996 16:44:16 GMT From: "Hickson, Robert D." Subject: Fripp & Trio Commercial Success? (sort of) While watching a freestyle skiing competition on CBS tv last Sunday I was surprised (pleasantly) to hear the California Guitar Trio playing as the broadcast segued into a commercial. (I haven't committed their material to memory, but it was the piece with the fuzzed out slide guitar). When the program returned, there was a documentary piece on the history of freestyle skiing. The background music was, I believe, "Yamanashi Blues" from the RFSQ disc. Is it only a matter of time before "Thrak" becomes a chewing gum jingle? "Walking On Air" used to sell those new standard shoes? Maybe "Dinosaur" could launch Windows'97! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 16:59:44 PST From: charly at hal dot com (Charly Rhoades) Subject: Re: Chrodal Drums > >And now I wonder, tuning your drums to the New Standard Tuning > >would be really keen. > > Not quite sure I follow you on that... Drums are fundamentally a > single-note instrument, like the piano or saxophone. The "chord shapes" of > guitar are a result of the use of strings and frets, and being able to find > the same note in different places on the fretboard. You could no more tune > drums to NST than you could a piano. You seem to ignore tympani, which are tuned to a dominant note but can be de/re-tuned on the fly (albeit within a small range). Electric keyboards, too, have tone-bending capabilities too, again within a rather small range as opposed to string instruments (especially fretless ones). Charly Rhoades They may have picked an ideal appearance based HAL Computer Systems on some childish whim or momentary impulse. charly at hal dot com Some have gotten halfway there and then changed http://www.hal.com/~charly/ their minds. He wonders if he too might have made a similar mistake. - D. Byrne [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 18:22:13 PST From: charly at hal dot com (Charly Rhoades) Subject: Re: welll... (The Bridge Between is Mostly Live) > [...] So, I have found a > Robert Fripp String Quintet album named Soundscape that contain 17 > selections (Ah Ah Ah, did I draw some of your attention?). [...] > > It's ref. is RPCD 1116. And there is a litle "Red Phantom" (a cracker?). I > am prone to think that it is a bootleg, but I a am not sure. There is a > nice booklet with several pictures of R. Fripp and Gunn inside. Photo > credits says "Studio Pixel, Italy". Many R.F. photos inlude the shadow of > a Grand Stick just behind him. The sound is extremely nice, clearer than on > "The Bridge Between". (would you believe, a bootleg with a better quality > than studio album?) A nit: Take a closer look at the notes accompanying "The Bridge Between" and I think you'll find that most of the album was actually recorded live, with only a few cases of studio twiddling post-performance. (I further beleive -- my memory is less certain here -- that Contrapunctus was the only track recorded completely in studio.) It is a fine recording nonetheless -- and the performance at the Great America Music Hall that I attended, represented on the disc at places, was a superior experience for me. Charly Rhoades [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Jan 96 21:24:43 EST From: "Gerard T. Yurchison" <103457 dot 2060 at compuserve dot com> Subject: New to list/David Cross?/Earthworks? Hello, folks. I am new to this list..and find it quite interesting. I had followed KC from Court thru Red/USA, and then dropped away. Surprised, and happily so, to see this on the net!! Hello, Toby, Ken, and of course Robert. Although this may have been related in previous threads, can anyone tell me what David Cross has been up to lately? Having some personal violin experience, I always admired DC and would hope he still continues to record. Secondly, I am interested in Bruford's Earthwork recordings. I am having trouble locating any CDs in the local stores (Seaford, Long Island, New yawk). But can anyone recommend one Earthwork recording (Dig, the live one, or ??) that would be a good introduction to the band? Enough cyberwobble from me. Thanks in advance for any replies. Regards, GerryY. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:25:22 -0500 From: tomhowie at nylink dot org Subject: Drums: Mono-Tonality Redux "John R. Nash" writes: > Drums are fundamentally a single-note instrument, like the > piano or saxophone. Really? How so? Most modern kits consist of five drums, hi-hat, and a couple of cymbals. This adds up to eight different tonalities, which can be played in any combination, both in a linear fashion (which, through juxtaposition and sticking can be made to acoustically "overlap", producing chords), or played simutaneously to a depth of four: one for each limb. The more sophisticated the drummer, the more sophisticated the chords, and the more percussive instruments added to the "kit", the greater the range of tonalities available to the drummer. Bill Bruford has discussed the tonal and chordal potential of the drum kit many times, in various interviews. It is one of the things that intrigues him most about the instrument. Listen to "The Drum Also Waltzes" from the Moraz-Bruford album FLAGS. THIS is chordal, multi-tonal music. Your lumping the piano in the same category as the saxophone is very confusing. I mean, listen: a guitar player can only play six notes at a time (12 with a twelve-string, but that's cheating); a piano player can play ten if he wants! And the NST comes inborn: it's already on the instrument! > The "chord shapes" of guitar are a result of the use of > strings and frets, and being able to find the same note in > different places on the fretboard. You could no more tune drums > to NST than you could a piano. Why not? My kit has two snares (a 4" and 6.5"), five toms (8", 10", 13", 14", 18"), and a 24" bass drum. Tell me what the NST is - what are the notes from low string to high string - and I'll tune my drums to it! Guarenteed! (I like my kit tuned chromatically anyway, so tuning to another series of notes is no big deal.) > Of course, the single "notes" of the instrument can be chords > themselves. How? Through overtones or sympathetic vibrations from adjacent instruments? The drums are one of the most melodic instruments out there: the problem is that most people are inculcated by drummers who don't play the drums melodically: a drummer who does is rare, and doesn't get music work in your standard "rock" or cover band (forget "country"!). They're usually playing jazz, or not working... Tomas "More Than Gerbil, Less Than Man" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 06:04:56 -0600 (CST) From: Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu Subject: LoCG Live! I was listening to the LoCG Live! and was reading the liner notes when I noticed mention of a "documentary video" of a concert by the league on December 8th 1985. I would be interested in seeing this. Anyone out there have a copy? And once more I will ask if anyone has a copy of Trey Gunn's first recording "Raw Power". Scott [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 19 Jan 1996 09:28:33 -0600 From: "John Ott" Subject: re-> Heat re:> Heat >John dot P dot Mohan at lawrence dot edu writes >A couple recommendations to those who are fans of KC associates such as >Eno, Michael Brook, and other noted artists in the ambient genre - I have >recently picked up two similar and very excellent albums: _Original >Soundtracks I_ by the Passengers (the "loose collective" of Brian Eno, U2, >and others) and the soundtrack to the movie _Heat_. Both specialise in very >sophisticated discreet music, full of brilliant subtleties contributed by >Brian Eno (the master of the form) as well as others. The _Heat_ soundtrack >especially features a track by Micheal Brook, as well as two by Moby, one >by the Passengers, one by Brian Eno, and several by Kronos Quartet. Highly >recommended for KC fans out there looking for good new music. I second John's recommendation. However there are two Brian Eno tracks "Entrada & Shootout" and "Force Marker", there was a third in the film that did not survive the editing. In fairness to JP the track listings are screwed up. On the back of the CD Eno is not given credit for the tracks (Lisa Gerrard is). On the inside several songs are listed and then the artist is given credit after his last track. At first I did not get this CD because I was disappointed that there were no Eno tracks (I already had the Passengers CD) despite the front of the CD saying featuring Brian Eno. I decided to get it for the Michael Brook and Kronos Quartet tracks and suprise there were Eno tracks. I also recommend the film. I've always liked Michael Mann and he has good taste in picking musical artists for his films. (Tangerine Dream for "Thief", Jan Hammer for "Miami Vice") see ya John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]