Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk #253 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 253, Thursday, 4 January 1996 Today's Topics: Re: Crimson Alumni Book of Saturday Low Flying Aircraft A few musical questions MORE B'BOOMING BILL Re: Crimso Alumni Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #252 Combination of the year Re: 80s Records Re: New Standard Shoes Drum thoughts Ultimate Rarities, Weird Person's and input requests Fripp As A Bird...or Belew's Building A Better Beatle Song King Crimson site.. Adrian Belew and Captain Beefheart crafty shoes reaction Bartok Rock A litle more of Bill Brufford [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW Home: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/et/ Topic Index: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/topics-index/etopics.html FAQ: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/faq.html FTP The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] FROM THE MODERATOR Happy New Year to you all! ET is back for '96. However the next issue after this won't be out until the week of 15th January, as I have a vacation until then. Wishing everyone well for '96. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:38:17 -0800 From: David Wisker Subject: Re: Crimson Alumni I'm looking at my vinyl copy of LOW FLYING AIRCRAFT. It's on Subterranean records, and its serial number is SUB 60. In addition to Cross and Tippett, the album features Dan Maurer (drums) and Jim Juhn (guitar, bass). It was recorded in 1986. Musically, the album is smooth, instrumental jazz. Pleasant, but not particularly adventurous stuff. The address of Subterranean Records is: 577 Valencia San Francisco, CA 94110 USA Cheers, Dave Wisker [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:45:38 -0500 From: 100121 dot 3114 at compuserve dot com Subject: Book of Saturday Greeting from Angus and all the team here at BoS towers. Book of Saturday, Journal of King Crimson and associated matters, latest issue (11) now available. Interview with Gordon Haskell, article about Small Mobile Intelligence. Comes C/W Tape of Saturday #1, with tracks from Gitbox and Europa String Choir, and two tracks from Gordon Haskells new album. More details from BoS Press, 2 Greenhills, Leeds, LS19 6NP. Tel (0113) 250 6433. Fax (0113) 243 0371. email 100121 dot 3114 at compuserve dot com. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 09:22:29 EST From: jreilly at eng dot gdai dot com (John Reilly) Subject: Low Flying Aircraft >I remember a group called Low Flying Aircraft being advertised around >1990 or so in an underdround catalog, featuring "former members of King >Crimson", one of whom was definitely Cross. Unfortunately, I failed to >snag the vinyl at the time and have never run across it since. This >might be what you're referring to; hopefully somebody has the album and >is willing to share a little more info. I picked up this album a few days ago. It is still in print. My recomendation is to save your money. It is a big time dud. I kept waiting for something to happen, it never did. Also on the album was Mr. Tippet. Now mind you, this is comming from someone that loves the Tippet and Cross contributions to KC. I think the Cross violin was the defining instrument of the Lark's era KC. Kieth and David were only supporting musicians on Low Flying Aircraft. The other two (their names escape me) were the 'group'. The liner notes explain the addition of Kieth and David. My recomendation for using the money you save on Low Flying Aircraft is to by the Kieth Tippet / Howard Reilly Bernn Concert CD. The disc is 60 minutes of piano duet improv. Very interesting stuff. I'll post a review of both Low Flying and Bern Live if a Tippet thread starts up. John Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:32:40 -0500 (EST) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: A few musical questions (Questions about music, that is. Not questions that are pleasing to the ear.) (1) On "Show of Hands", who is playing on each song? There are about twenty players listed in the sleeve, but as much as I want to I find it hard to believe that all twenty+ of them are playing at once. The sound is mostly too thin, too precise, to be made by very many people. Of course, the live albums sound just as thin and precise, and I would imagine that everyone's playing at once on those albums. Gosh, I forgot all my other questions. oH wELL. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:19:12 EST From: Jack Secret Subject: MORE B'BOOMING BILL Okay, Sorry guys...on my last post about Mr. Bruford's improvisation in B'Boom (the song) I left out one bar--too much eggnog screws with your head... Anyway, here it is one more time. Pat starts and sets up his pattern. Pat plays four bars of 6/8 and then Bill comes in with... 8 bars of 6/8 1 bar of 7/8 2 bars of 6/8 1 bar of 5/8 1 bar of 6/8 8 bars of 4/8 5 bars of 5/8 4 bars of 7/8 4 bars of 8/8 4 bars of 7/8 4 bars of 5/8 7 bars of 3/8 2 bars of 6/8 playing the accent pattern with Pat on snare That's the whole first part of B'Boom. It seems that Pat M. was kind of right in 'modern drummer' when he said that Bill's part descended and then ascended. I gave a good listen to the B'Boom on disc one of B'Boom (the album). Bill's improv on this is a little erratic but he does settle down into a pattern that is easy to identify. He eventually winds down to 7/8 then 5/8 then 3/8. If you can identify the patterns from the Thrak version it makes it a lot easier. I'm trying to figure out Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream--someone told me that a few months back in 'modern drummer' that Bill wrote an article and it explained this song--something about him playing in 9/8 over Pat's 4/4 rhythm. I can't grasp it though, there's too much stuff going on to clearly hear Bill's part. It would be excellent if someone could clue me in. I'll share some of my eggnog with you. Happy Holidays from the cast and crew of THE JACK SECRET SHOW!!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:20:15 -0800 From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold) Subject: Re: Crimso Alumni Re: [snipped for brevity] >> I was in the record store a couple of weeks ago and I saw an album >> [CD] featuring David Cross, Keith Tippet, and two other people... >> ...but apparently it had been sold. I was in Berkeley recently bought that copy ;-). > I remember a group called Low Flying Aircraft.... > This might be what you're referring to.... Yep, that's the one! Here's a mini-review. The musical driving force is the "two other people", who I believe are jazz musicians of no great repute. Keith has good presence on the CD, and David less so. My summary (at great expense to the musicians who may have been trying hard): weenie jazz-noodling. If you like Keith's other work, you might like this CD. Otherwise, probably not. I don't like it, but that's my preference. Regarding "obscure alumni" recordings, my all-time favorite is Gordon Haskell's "Hambledon Hill", ~1991, VoicePrint Records. A real sleeper, it's one of my top 20 favorite CDs in my 600+ CD collection. I also really like the Roy Harper ~1975 album (the name escapes me, still not on CD?) that has Bill Bruford playing drums, David Gilmore on guitar and John Paul Jones on bass. If you have just started down this trail of locating obscure side works, these two are worth locating. I've got many others that aren't. - Brian --------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Arnold arnold at lumina dot com Director of Software Development Lumina Decision Systems, Inc. http://www.lumina.com/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark J. Christensen" Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #252 Rob MacCoun asked: >Does anyone else know anything about a failed attempt at a 4th album by the >1980's version of KC? I do remember reading an interview with Fripp where he mentioned working on what was turning into "Larks' Tongues, pt.4" for a later aborted film version of William Gibson's book "Neuromancer" (brief pause to consider what that could have turned out to be like...). While the interview was just before the release of "The First Day", I believe the reference was to sessions years prior with the 80's band in mind for the recording. happy hollidays! murkie [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is (Orn Orrason) Message-Id: <9512220929 dot AA13983 at kerfi dot hi dot is> Subject: Combination of the year Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:29:06 +0000 (GMT) Dear readers I last ET the Fripp-Bjork combo was suggested. I have often thought about this idea and I truly believe that they could make very interesting sounds together, besides, Fripp could reach millions of Bjork fans and therefore expand his audienceship by a wide margin. Bjork has always been an explorer like Fripp. I have followed here since she was 11 years old. She has made many experimental records wich are not known to the outside Iceland world. COMBO OF THE YEAR 1996, BJORK-FRIPP "SOUNDSCAPES FROM THE NORTH" orn -- ************************************************************** * * * Orn Orrason - Electronic Engineer * * University of Iceland - Systems Engineering lab * * Tel +354 525 4703 Fax +354 525 4937 em: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is * * * ************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:59:57 -0600 From: gdstrip at edge dot net (George Stripling) Subject: Re: 80s Records Gordon Emory Anderson wrote: >Does anyone notice the crappy, brittle sound quality on the 80s records, or is >this my imagination? For clarity, the EG Records 1989 Definitive Edition releases of ToaPP, Discipline & Beat were digitally remastered by Mr. Fripp and Tony Arnold. Also, my disks say they were MASTERED BY NIMBUS around the inner disc ring. Are yours the same? I have posted before regarding the sound quality of these releases, IMHO NOT THE DEFINITIVE ADDITIONS!! I think the remixes definitely did lose some integrity in the digitizing process, especially in the high frequenvy ranges. The type of A/D conversion that must have been available in 89' could not possibly compare with the A/D circuits we now have. I prefer the Warner Brothers releases over all, but I don't think you'll find much bass there either. I beleive the high end distortion you are noticing is caused by aliasing, the phenomenen of low level sidebands of some inaudible high energy frequency affecting frequencies in the audible range. Specifically, the Nyquist theory becomes signifigant here, which states that in order to digitally record a sound's audible frequencies at full bandwidth you must sample at a rate at least twice the value of the highest frequency to be reproduced. ie... if humans can here up to 20KHz (an arbitrary #, no flames please) one must sample signals at a minimum rate of 40000 samples per second. CD's are at 44100 Hertz, or cycles per second. So we could say that the highest possible frequency a CD can store is 22500 Hertz. The earliest A/D's used a very steep LPF filter to eliminate energy above a certain frequency, from 18 to 25 KHz typically. Problem: energy in the > 225000Hz range affects the energy < 225000Hz range. The early filters introduced much harmonic distortion via aliasing into the signal. More recently the concept of oversampling was introduced. Instead of sampling at 44100 KHz, sampling would occurr at 8 or 64 times that, (2822400 Hertz). Then a much more gently sloped filter could be used to seperate high frequency energy from the audible program material before being finaly stored at a frequency of 44.1 (CD) or 48 KHz (AES Professional standard) Here's one last wild card. Some people can only here up to around 16KHz, others claim they can hear well above 21KHz. The Audio Engineering Society has been hosting a very informative discussion on this topic over the last decade. >Perhaps...this bad sound quality is limited to the CD. Were the definitive editions released on vinyl? I'd be interested to find out. I think in his zeal for the (then) coming digital revolution Mr. Fripp may have jumped the gun a bit. Maybe more remixes are in the works? George Stripling Jr. gdstrip at edge dot net http://edge.edge.net/~gdstrip/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Jeremy Lakatos Subject: Re: New Standard Shoes Drum thoughts Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 14:03:36 -0500 (EST) LOL! Great. Me, I always thought Fripp's shoes were those bootlegs that Fripp has always hated. Man, I couldn't stand to wear the New Standard Shoes. I've heard that people who've tried to wear them have broken toes, usually the smaller ones. BTW I would love to drum like Bill Bruford (okay, who wouldn't?) (well, I can already sing like Adrian Belew ... well, David Sylvian at least, so have to move upward). Unfortunately, I am hopelessly desperately poor (under $100 a week wage). Why are drums so expensive and so loud? Oh, and a former friend and I had a discussion once: every rock band has drums, and eliminating them would be quite a trick. I, however, was pro-drum. I came upon this idea--what if the drums played non-drum samples (electronic, of course)? Then you'd have the drum flavor but a tonal sound. And now I wonder, tuning your drums to the New Standard Tuning would be really keen. Why should it be only the guitars who get to have the fun? (Try having someone with a midi-guitar selecting the notes, drummer playing the rhythm). <*> jeremy at grove dot ufl dot edu (Beck Depression Inventory: 34) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:54:07 -0700 From: brady at rainier dot darwin dot com (William Brady) Subject: Ultimate Rarities, Weird Person's and input requests Greetings KC enthusiasts, I recently found two import sets called King Crimson Ultimate Rarities(vols.1 and 2) and The Weird Person's Guide to King Crimson (also in 2 vols.). I was told the "Ultimate Rarities" were Italian imports (they were also $30 apiece), but there was no recording company or distributor label evident anywhere. Are these bootlegs and if so, does anyone know how the recording quality compares to, say Earthbound on the low end and Great Deceiver box set on the high quality end? The material listed was pretty standard LTiA-era stuff, maybe a year earlier than most of the stuff on GD. The "Weird Person's Guide" said made in Germany and had a label associated with it (Illusions or Grand Illusions or something), but were unusual compilations of material from Giles,Giles and Fripp (Groon) to some studio outakes from the 80's (LTiA pt.3 ...). Is anyone familiar with these recordings and their recording quality? I was especially intrigued when I saw that the WPGtKC had an apparently different rendition of "Trio" than that heard on SaBB. I would have to be substantially more intrigued to plop down $30 apiece for these as well, but would do so if I had an idea of how they sounded. I would much rather RF and Co. cover each manifestation of KC, from ItCotCK through the present, with a 4 CD live box set like they did with the LTiA -era compositions. Perhaps, someday... A year ago I thought I saw a CD called Fripp and Gunn, but by the time I got back to the store to buy it, it was gone and the store disavows any knowledge of its existence. Was this just a figment of my imagination.(The store clerk said I'd been listening to too much of that " King Crimson shit". Alas to be a crimso in grunge country. Please respond with any info you have directly to me to save ET space for others. Also, I would like input into Fripp's Blessing of Tears. I have Soundscapes 1999. How does BoT compare with those performances? Also, if there's anyone out there in the Seattle area, where can I find a store with a decent import selection? Thanks in advance. Bill brady at darwin dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:20:28 -0500 From: WRoland762 at aol dot com Subject: Fripp As A Bird...or Belew's Building A Better Beatle Song First of all, thanks to Toby for creating ET;I'm new to the world of the Internet and was pleasantly surprised to find this site on the web...quality and quantity combined!Anyway on to my point... I witnessed the amazing show in New Haven on Nov.18,spent most of the show trying to take in everything that took place on stage...the polyrhythms,the camaraderie, the spotlight on Fripp's stool before they took the stage(non-fans always miss the band's sense of humor). What set it apart from just an everyday life-altering King Crimson set was Adrian's performance of "Free As A Bird"the night BEFORE the Anthology on the Beatles aired. Armed only with his trusty guitar synth, he proceeded to give a haunting solo rendition of the tune based on his knowledge of it from the original bootleg tape of John singing in the Dakota in 1977. I daresay this is the version I prefer to the lumbering Jeff Lynne production on the radio. Delicate, loving,and memorable-only a true Beatles fan like Adrian could have pulled this off. Upon the conclusion of the tune, the band and the audience roared with approval. May this Crimson last beyond the end of the century. Bill Roland WRoland762 at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 18:20:30 +0000 From: steven noreyko Subject: King Crimson site.. Hi there. I have a site which should be of interest to Crimson fans and readers of Elephant Talk. I have put together a collection of my photographs taken at the Kalamazoo, MI stop of the THRAK, USA tour. These are on display at http://www.starnews.com/okyeron/crimson.html The photographs are copyright 1995 Steven Noreyko and should not be reproduced without written permission. Original prints of those photos are available from the photographer (me). See the email address below. Let me know what you think. Feel free to link me up from Elephant Talk if you deem it worthy. -steve "dig me....but don't bury me" - a. belew ___________ Steven Noreyko okyeron at starnews dot com http://www.starnews.com/okyeron/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 03 Jan 96 07:49:40 EST From: Michael Garnice <74762 dot 304 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Adrian Belew and Captain Beefheart There are two instances of KC's music reminding me of Captain Beefheart's. Dig Me's texture is very reminiscent of CB in general. And the Guitar as Mellotron break in Dinosaur reminds me of the Mellotron break in CB's Sue Egypt. Both of these are primarily Adrian Belew's work, so I'm wondering if this is influence or coincidence. Has anyone heard if AB is a Captain Beefheart fan? Thanks, Ringo G. From: "Caron, Antoine" Subject: crafty shoes reaction Date: Wed, 03 Jan 96 10:01:00 EST I would like to thank all the people who wrote to me in appreciation of my "New Standard Shoes" posting. Unfortunately, our server suffered a major crash on Dec 22, and some mail might have been lost. Best for '96 to you all. Long live the King Antoine W. Caron caron at biotech dot lan dot nrc dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:14:16 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Bartok Rock First of all, to the person who posted about the Bartok Quartets a while back, you were right. My dad gave me the complete quartets on CD, and they are truly amazing. They definitely are the 20th century continuation of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue (and are much more approachable than Anton Webern's work, such as the Six Bagatelles). This is complex, abstract, challenging music and a must for any KC fans wanting to check out some classical that seems to emanate from the same universe as King Crimson. One thing, however, while listening to the 5th Quartet, I noticed an almost bluesy line in there, sounding at times like that quick riff from Court of the Crimson King (not the opening). Anyone know if this was conscious on Fripp's part? Before anyone thinks I'm making claims of plagarism (I'm not), let me quote the great (under-appreciated) Salvador Dali, who said that "anyone who does not borrow from the great masters is a plagarist!" I wish you all a good 1996, and actually hope to see King Crimson return to the 42nd street pier this summer! -Emory. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: stehelin at citi2 dot fr (Dominique Stehelin) Subject: A litle more of Bill Brufford Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:20:45 +0100 (MET) in the never ending interview of Bill Bruford I've been translating, here we are , the next part of it. Believe me or not, there is still one after this one and you will all be set (at least free). Enough babling (Eh, who is babling?) Q: You will admit anyway that a lot of drummer would be happy just to earn a little money. They may not have the means nor the desire to experiment. B.B.: Of course. I would say that 90% of the professional drummer play a music they do not care. I think that out of the 10 others%, 5 play a music conventionally they like very much. That leaves only a handful of creative drummers, adventurer in rock, and intelligent jazzmen. That makes 3 or 4% that make the instrument progress in new ways, in the world, or 400 or 500 drummers, and I know them all. It is a little community. It is hard times for drummer those days, most of the time, what we ask the drummer is minimalist, I am talking about popular records. It is very difficult to do something interesting, when the lord up there says everything must be 120 per quarter note, and that, you hear more or less the same rhythm everywhere. Finally, a creative program (on a drum machine) is more interesting than boring drums. Q: A simple beat, clear, straight, in time is then uninteresting to you? B.B.: Yes, of course, Pat does that all the time, and I do like, but I need something that is more a challenge. The standard pop beat is not a wonderful advanced thing that we would have to be proud of. Africans, Indians and Chinese people are beyond for a thousand years. We too can go further. Q: You says it is hard times for drumming, could you speak more in details of the drumming today, and what positive changes we can expect? B.B.: There good and bad news. I think that American drumming, especially the Californian athleticism, has become a sport that would fit in the Olympic games. This notion of being able to play quicker and more precisely was an idea that XIX century great piano-player like Liszt, Rachmaninoff and others had settled to impress the audience, hence, they did. Now, you do not judge keyboardists on their dexterity, one considers it is an(acquise) thing. What we consider is the expressivity, and their ability to conceive art as itself. Skills do not impress me. I can appreciate beauty and grace of a thing, but more beautiful will be the music to go with. So we have hyper muscled drummer, over qualified, that can only make solos and clinics. So OK, but what for he rest of the music, then? Something I try to avoid, I try to assort drumming with the music and music with the drumming, and we are back to King Crimson. I wish Simon Phillips and terry Bozzio to have their King Crimson: a musical universe where both of them could be the geniuses they genuinely are. I do not speak of them peculiarly, it is a general problem for the drummers. What is important, is that athletic drummer could have a "home" to welcome their music. When playing with such people, others musicians say "it is fantastic, but I do not know what to do". I have known enough situations where I played incredible things that emptied he hall in one moment. Why everybody went away to drink? Because I could not create a musical space where you could feel well. If I had started with a little simple swinging thing, rather than sending everyone to the bar, the hall would have been full with musicians dying to play. You have to create an environment where music can rise and attract people to itself. That what one must learn. From the very beginning, drummers tried to define their role. Their was always entertainer that made their sticks turn, and add a visual aspect to the band. Drummers should learn that it is god not to demonstrate. Instrument is adult enough not be spectacular. No need for licks from hell. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]