Elephant Talk #239 (as text)

15 November 1995



Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:14:59 -0200
From: Tefkros Symeonides <tsymeo at zenon dot logos dot hol dot gr>
Subject: Re: Fripp
In ET #236, Randall Powell writes:

> He then proceeded to raise his coffee cup between his two pudgy 
> little hands with a melodramatic gesture

And so on...  I'd just like to say that if this happen to me I'd feel
pretty dumbfounded (and pissed off) but still you should consider two
things:

1. Fripp is Fripp, but he's also a person like you and me; he's entitled to
some privacy and he has the right to be in a bad mood. How'd you feel if a
total stranger came to talk to you and you were having a bad day?  Maybe
we, his fans, think he has the responsibility to be friendly with us etc.
but perhaps he thinks otherwise.

2. Just because Fripp treated you the way he did doesn't mean you should
not appreciate his music anymore. What geared you to go to the concert in
the first place anyway? The musician is a person; the music is what you
should admire and love.

After all, how about this story by David Beardsley from ET #237 :

>Mr. Fripp complemented me on my Robert Fripp String Qt. Tshirt!
>RF: I like the music on your shirt
>DB: Catchy melody.
>The shirt shows an excerpt from Fracture!

So you see Fripp can be friendly and humorous when obviously in a good mood.

VROOOM on,
Tefkros Symeonides

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 12:29:10 GMT
From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham)
Subject: Re: LTiA2 and The Rite of Spring
In ET #237, David Beardsley (DMB5561719 at aol dot com) wrote:

>Gideon B Banner <gideon dot banner at yale dot edu> writes:
>>     Someone mentioned a few issues back that LTiA2 quotes from
>>Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.  Is this actually the case?  If so, where in
>>LTiA2 does this take place and where in the Rite of Spring is it taken
>>from?  (grammar sucks, I know)
>
>I don't think so. They are probably thinking of the Augurs of Spring.
>I'd rather compar LTiA2 to a Bartok string Qt.

As a long time fan of The Rite, it had never struck me that there was a
similarity with LTiA2. However, now that I'm prompted to think about it,
the rhythm of the main riff that opens up LTiA2 is pretty much identical to
that when The Rite first turns "savage" (about 5 minutes into part 1). I
presume this part is "The Augurs of Spring" as mentioned by David.

Clive Backham
McDonnell Information Systems, UK
email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 12:49:59 GMT
From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham)
Subject: That Speeded-up bit on Exposure...
In ET #237, Gordon Emory Anderson <ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com> wrote:

[ Regarding the high-speed bit on Exposure ]

>Does anyone out there know if it is really possible to decode
>this speech from the LP?

Let's be wildly optimistic, and assume that (i) speech will be
intelligible provided we have frequencies up to 500Hz; and
(ii) you can get meaningful 20kHz signals onto an LP.

This means that in order to retain the frequencies after speed-up,
the amount of speed-up must be no more than 40 times. Since the
track lasts 3 seconds, the original must have been 2 minutes or less
if we are to have retained the 500Hz frequencies.

Conclusion: given that the original speech is very likely to have lasted
more than 2 minutes, the changes of decoding it from Exposure are almost
certainly nil.

>And if so, has digitization made this impossible?

Digitisation (at CD sampling rates) will lose frequencies above 22kHz.
Therefore, it will retain any information that might have found its way
onto an LP. (Some LPs might contain signals above 22kHz, but whether they
resemble anything that was originally fed to the cutting head at those
frequencies is highly unlikely).

Nevertheless, having convinced myself that it won't work, I've decided
to try the experiment anyway. Watch this space.

Clive Backham
McDonnell Information Systems, UK
email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 08:26:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca
Subject: Crimson PA gear
Hello ETers,

Mix Magazine for Oct. '95 ran a short article about the gear that KC is
using on this tour. Here's a brief summary.

Front of House

Mixer: George Glossop (same as '80s tours)

Company: Delicate Productions, L. A.,Ca.

PA: 10 Martin F2 bass cabs
    10 Martin F2 mid-high cabs
    4  MartinBSX sub-bass cabs
    4 Apogee AE5 cabs

    2 F2 amp racks containing:
    3 Carver PM1200s
    4 Crest 7001s

    2 sub-bass racks containing:
    2 Crest 8001s

    1 Apogee rack containing:
    1 Apogee A5 processor
    2 Carver PM 1200s

    Drive rack contains:
    1 BSS Varicurve
    2 BSS 960 4-channel graphic EQs
    1 Chaos Audio 4-station intercom
    4 Martin MX4 crossovers (left, right, sub and spare)

    Yamaha PM4000 board

    Insert rack containing:
    1 Goldline RTA
    1 Summit Tube Compressor
    3 UREI LA-22 compressor/limiters
    1 Drawmer 201 noise gate

    Effects rack containing:
    1 Yahama SPX-990
    1 Lexicon PCM70
    1 Lexicon PCM42
    1 dbx 120 Subharmonic
    1 Summit tube limiter
    2 Panasonic DAT decks
    1 dbx DX5 CD player
    1 Technics cassette deck

Monitors

Mixer: Robin Fox

Board: Midas XL3 console

Rack contains:
5 Klark-Teknik DN360 EQs
6 dbx 160X compressor/limiters
1 Drawmer 201 noise gate
1 UREI 7112 compressor/limiter
1 Yahama SPX-990
1 Lexicon PCM70

14 Martin LE600 floor monitors
1 Martin F1 sub-bass cab (1x18" woofer)

Powered by:
8 Carver PM350/PMX amplifiers/crossovers
8 AB Systems AB1200 amps
1 Martin MX4 sub crossover
1 Crest 7001 amp

Mics:
3 Shure SM58s-vocals
4 Shure SM57s-snares & Belew's guitars
2 Shure SM81s-Bruford's overheads
2 Shure SM98s-Bruford's toms
1 Shure SM94-Bruford's hi-hat
3 Beyer M88s-Bruford's kick and floor toms
1 Shure SM91-Mastelotto's kick
3 AKG 460s-Mastelotto's hi-hat and "toys"
2 AKG 414s-Mastelotto's overheads
? Sennheiser 409(s)-Mastelotto's floor toms

The band -monitors- in stereo and can control their monitor mixes
themselves, to a degree.

Hope this doesn't cause a fatal GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)
attack among the players subscribed to the list.

"Mmmm....Lexicon" - Homer Simpson

J. P. Hovercraft
aka
jprice at trentu dot ca

"Also THRAK Zarathustra"

From: "Benjamin A. Burck" <burck at pobox dot upenn dot edu>
Subject: Robert's Rabbit
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 09:33:53 -0500 (EST)
Robert Fripp's long awaited profile of his pet rabbit Beaton (as well as
additional K.C. related material) appears in the most recent issue of
Animal Review: the Fanzine of Herbivorous Youth.  If you want a copy, send
$2 (other than U.S., please throw a little extra in to cover postage) to:
Nell Zink, 4111 Ludlow St., Philadelphia, PA 19104.

From: "Mathews, Thomas J." <tjm4 at NCH08A dot EM dot CDC dot GOV>
Subject: Fripp deserves better
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 09:53:00 EST
So Fripp got flamed here on ET, yet again. I think the offer of Guitar
Craft says quite a bit. Take a week long course and have Fripp himself sit
down next to you and start the conversation himself. This is the sign of a
good man not a bad one. If he needs space in his life so as to create what
he does then I'm willing to give it (and more*). I would hate for us to
scare him into oblivion.

*Over at alt.fan.sylvian and here I read complaints about prices of
product, ticket rip-offs, and the tons of money these musicians are making
doing tours. I try to put it in this context: I'm more comfortable spending
money on art then I am giving it to Oil CEOs or, in my case, handing it
over to the landlord. The ticket rip-off is still sad (but a few bands have
made some headway).

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 09:29:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu
Subject: Some comments and an offer
First off, it has been interesting listening to all the complaints and
disaggreements with Fripps attitude, and it made me think of Glenn Gould.
I am not sure how many of you are familiar with Gould, but he was a
classical pianist who at a very young age made a recording that made him
known throught out the world.  At the time of this recording he was 25, and
at the age of 39, he left the classical stage forever.  He did this for two
reasons.  One was that he considered the recordable medium far superior to
live situations. He didnt like the "non-take-twoness of the stage, and he
thought that a listener could get closer to the music in his own home.
This is interesting considering all of the complaints about bad
accloustics, bad mixing, and bad audiences that have been made here on ET.
But what is more interesting is that he completely shyed away from the
public altogther.  In one article of his that I have read in
_The_Glenn_Gould_Reader_, he makes the statement that perhaps the audience
should be forced to refrain from all display of graditude or dislike of the
music that they have heard. A complete ban on clapping is the suggestion.
It is an interesting I dea, and not one that I think would be foriegn to
Fripp.  Considering all of the things Fripp has said, it might be said that
you are pating for the music, not to idolize the performer.  Something
Glenn Gould spoke about quite a few times.

On the same idea, i think that I am getting extremely tired of listening to
the celebrity gossip worth of grocerie store rags.  Lately more posts are
coming out speaking specifically about the music or the instruments being
used, and a lot of these post go into great detail and seem to be backed by
some knowledge of the subject.  If these types of articles are going to
disappear to make room for more gossip and worthless blabberings about the
people who make the music, I think that I could do with out ET.

On a different note, after reading the describtions of the LA House of
Blues, it occured to me that the only time that I have seen KC put so much
"showmanship" into there performances was on the ToaPP video.  With the
statement that there were video monitors showing the stage, and also with
the fact that while in the hospital just recently (My wife having our first
child) I noticed a program on WTBS that showcased the house of blues.
Anyone out there with cable or disk prevledges might keep their eye out for
KC on that program.

And finally, the offer.  I just recently found a copy of "The First Day" on
vinyl, and I thought that I might share the information with the ones out
there who said that they were having a hard time finding it.  I am willing
to work trades with it and i do have some unmentionables that I am looking
for and also more that I am willing to trade.  Anyone interested can
contact me.

Thank you,
Scott

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 11:07:43 -0500
From: rathey at pacific dot mps dot ohio-state dot edu (Rochelle Athey)
Subject: Meeting KC
After reading the comments in ET #237, I wanted to describe my first (and
only) "meeting" with members of KC.  It was in 1983 when I was 19 years
old; a friend of mine who is acquainted with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin
invited me to the show at Blossom Music Center, outside of Cleveland, OH.
I was very unfamiliar with the type of music KC was doing -- I'd heard
ItCotCK, but that's about it.  Anyway, I was blown away by the show
(seventh row) and immediately became a fan.  My friend had backstage passes
so I got to mingle with the band -- Robert was walking around, asking
everyone he saw if we wanted a chocolate from the large box of candies in
his hands.  He seemed very nice.  Adrian was ill with the flu so he did not
stay.  Later in the evening, I was fortunate enough to be invited to a late
dinner with Bill and Tony and my friend.  Both men were extremely
interesting and mannerly.  I remember being amazed by their large hands and
small appetites.

It was one of the best nights of my life and I'll always be grateful for
having had the opportunity to meet Bill and Tony.

Anyway, I saw the early summer shows this year in Cleveland and Cincinnati.
I can't wait for the Nov. 27th show in Columbus!  This band just gets
better and better.

Another female who "gets it" --

Rochelle
http://www-physics.mps.ohio-state.edu/~discover/athey.html

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:50:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Casey P. Reilly" <creill1 at gl dot umbc dot edu>
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #236
To Randall Powell:

I am amazed that you apparently have to like SOMEBODY to like WHAT THEY
DO. What a coincidence that immediately after you found out Robert Fripp
wasn't your special little pal you lost all respect for his music.
hmmmmmmmm.... very suspicious. Perhaps if he had been all "Randall! Put 'er
there bud! You the man!" you would have coincidentally realized the deep
and astounding talent of this man. I think I'll step aside and let Peter
Hammill say a thing or two:

[ok Randall this is you:]

"'Excuse me while I suck your blood, excuse me while I phone you I've got
every one of your records man, doesn't that mean that I own you?'

[and this is the public figure you have decided to harass:]

Sure I long ago decided to make myself an exponent, A public posession in
the private obsession zone.  But now I'm serious, let's get serious I'm not
selling you my soul!  I tried to put it in the record but I've got to keep
my life my own."

Casey Patrick Reilly

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:14:01 PST
From: "Allen Huotari" <allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com>
Subject: Boz reminisces about Crimson days
     the recent Boz/Bad Co thread prompted me to dig deep into the personal
     archives to post this
     the mellotron bashers amongst us may get a giggle or two over this one
     also this little reminiscence puts a very different spin on
     "Earthbound" for this listener

     ajh

     the following is excerpted from "BAD COMPANY - A BUNCH OF SISSIES?
     (you don't have to wear mascara you know)" by Nick Kent
     as it appeared in CREEM magazine June 1976 (and originally appearing
     in NME, date unknown)

     _____________________________________________________________________

        And Burrell? Well, his former escapades provide the best copy of
     the day. A former King Crimson employee (Fripp taught him bass
     "parrot-fashion"), his reminiscences are scurrilous if nothing else.
        "That whole period of my life was ridiculous. I mean, if I've ever
     done anything in my life purely for the money, that was it. I mean,
     I'd be singing these lyrics and suddenly I'd stop and think, 'Christ,
     what does that mean?' I reckon Sinfield used to dig out his Roget's
     Thesaurus, find the most impressive looking words and just throw 'em
     all in.
        "And Fripp." He laughs. "He'd be sitting on his stool just scowling
     at us. So every night for an encore we'd rush out - see, the only
     thing Fripp can't play is a straightforward blues, so for the encore
     the rest of the band would charge on-stage and before he'd got a
     chance to plug in his guitar, we'd kick off with a 12-bar!" He laughs
     again.
        On the very last night, Mel [Collins] demolished a mellotron as
     part of the solo. He just very methodically took it to pieces, right,
     and Fripp turned round - it was during "Schizoid Man" - he was on his
     stool [collapses laughing].
        "The thing is, though, it's ridiculous when people murmur that
     we're all in Bad Co. for the money. Nothing could be further from the
     truth. But, I mean, that Crimson gig - that was a pure paycheck thing.
        "It's a shame, really. People just don't get it straight."
     ______________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:33:46 -0800 (PST)
From: rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck)
Subject: Re: Eat a Bug
>From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph)
>
>Which reminds me: fans of the jazzier wackier aspects of the King
>Crimson oeuvre might appreciate Eskimo's recent album _Further
>Adventures of Der Shrimpkin_.  Fairly wild stuff, mostly in a funky
>jazzy vein.  Much fun to be had.  And excellent musicians one and all.

While I don't see much Crimson connection, I agree that Eskimo are great.
More specifically, if you crossed Zappa's "Grand Wazoo" with Nick Mason's
Fictitious Sports (songs by Carla Bley) you'd have a pretty close
description.  Does humour belong in music?  You bet.

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:39:40 -0500
From: Otherroad at aol dot com
Subject: Fripp's personality
To those people who've reported bad personal experiences when meeting
Robert Fripp, I can sympathize with you.  I can imagine it is quite a
traumatic experience when someone you idolize is rude to you.  I would like
to say, though, that talent comes at a price - and the greater the talent,
the greater the price.

Consider, if you will, the case of Mozart as portrayed in the movie,
AMADEUS.  Historical records of the man suggest that this portrayal was not
far off.  Here we have one of the greatest musical minds of the world - a
total genius.  And yet his mind is so thoroughly engrossed in music that he
really can't function in the society in which he lives.  With a little less
musical genius he would have been filthy rich and lived a long life.

Now, Mr. Fripp is not as far gone as poor Wolfgang.  But certainly his mind
is focussed on music to an extreme degree.  We can witness that it even
infiltrates his philosophies of life.  In childhood, geniuses are
frequently subjected to as much derision as children with mental
retardation.  And I suspect THE SAGA OF RODNEY TOADY is probably
autobiographical.  You'll notice that the story has no end.  It just
describes the state of a child's existence and leaves us wondering how
Rodney overcame his misfortunes.  Well, in real life it's frequently the
case that the child never overcomes such derision and carries the scars
around for the rest of his life.  The result is often an extreme need to
control one's environment.  Obviously I don't know Fripp personally and
what I've described may not apply to him at all.

But I don't think anyone on this mailing list will argue that Fripp is an
extreme talent.  And talent comes at a price.

For other fans who may find themselves in similar circumstances, I would
suggest that instead of standing and waiting for his attention or
attempting to interrupt, just find a piece of paper and write whatever it
is you want to say to him.  Leave it at his table and walk away.  This will
probably make a greater impression on him.  Of course, it's only my
opinion.

Gary

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:11:59 -0600
From: amoran at spin dot com dot mx \a (Manuel Mor\an)
Subject: Long Trip to see them
Dear fellow fans,

I had the chance to see KC in Houston last Nov. 2nd, with the particularity
that I traveled more than 1,000 miles round-trip to see them.

I live in Mexico City and I arrived at Houston on the same day of the
concert, saw the concert and came back the next day early in the morning.
All I can say is: WHAT A SHOW!!!  I couldn't beleive I was there. It was
truly a once in a lifetime experience for me.  I really hope that some day
we will have the privelege of having KC playing here in Mexico City, there
are many of us fans here.

Just thought I'd share this personal experience with you Crimsonians since
you can understand what it is like to be such a fan. (Many people have told
me that I'm crazy to make that long trip just to see a "Rock Star", but
they don't know what they're missing, right?)

A superfan,

Manuel.

From: Giorgio_Fairsoni at mix dot it (Giorgio Fairsoni)
Subject: Ian Wallace & Bob Dylan
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:35:30 +0200
>Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:35:06 -0500 (EST)
>From: James Hannigan <thefly at panix dot com>
>
>One question: In light of the Boz discussion, I noticed on my Bob Dylan
>album "Street Legal" the drumming is by one Ian Wallace. The same as the
>Islands drummer, anyone know?

Hi James.

Yes, Ian Wallace after leaving KC went to America and played with Bob Dylan.

Cheers,

Giorgio Fairsoni

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:09:12 -0200
From: Tefkros Symeonides <tsymeo at zenon dot logos dot hol dot gr>
Subject: Re: Belew's Lyrics
In ET #238, Jeremy Lakatos <jeremy at grove dot ufl dot EDU> wrote:

>I occasionally see people criticize Adrian's lyrics. This is quite strange
>to me, as I see him as one of the better (hell, best, the market is so bad)
>lyricists out there.

Since you are speaking in the present tense, I am obliged to agree with you.

>He is able to come up with the best metaphors. From Thrak, we have "fossilized
>photos," "paint the trees with emptiness" (a moving line, and a good
>description of what happens when the leaves are colored not there),
>"sweet is the voice ... that speaks sotto voce," not to mention the clever
>silliness in SSEDD and people.

Okay, let's see: The metaphors in Dinosaur are pretty basic and not as
original as they could have been. The lyrics in the three 81-84 albums are
unquestionably...well...terrible. As for SSEDD (I think I've mentioned this
before) it's the only Belew song with good lyrics.  But "the best
metaphors"!?! Have people forgotten the genius Peter Sinfield (and I quote):

"The rusted chains of prison moons are shattered by the sun"

and later,

"...strung my warp across time, gave me each a horse, sunrise and graveyard..."

How about that? And how about Richard Palmer-James? He wasn't that bad either:

"You make my life and times a book of bluesy Saturdays, and I have to choose."

and later,

"Sing hymns, make love, get high, fall dead
 He'll bring his perfume to your bed
 He'll charm your life till the cold wind blows
 And sell your dreams to picture shows."

Now compare this to:

"I need to feel your heartbeat heartbeat
 so close, feels like mine
 all mine
 I need to feel your heartbeat heartbeat
 so close, feels like mine
 all mine..."

I'm left speechless speechless.
Totally speechless.

Note : I don't mean to offend or flame anyone with this message. All
opinions expressed here are strictly IMHO :) and though I believe Belew is
not as good as the aforementioned lyricists, he is still a talented
performer with a good-ish voice... on Thrak only that is :)

Regards,

Tefkros Symeonides

Date: 14 Nov 1995 16:23:08 -0500
From: "Christensen Mark" <Christensen_Mark at msmail dot middlebury dot edu>
Subject: re: Fripped Out ...
In ET #237, "CRING@VNET" wrote:

>I can imagine for the next tour, he will be playing backstage behind a
>curtain....

too late, he already did that (almost 20 years ago) on peter gabriel's
first solo tour.  he was billed as "dusty roads" and played ...
.. backstage behind a curtain.

murkie

"Well, it's okay to be famous, but there's no point in being a jerk about
it."
                                                 - Adrian Belew

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 04:54:56 -0500
From: Frank Lockwood <fl at io dot org>
Subject: Fripp`s Heavy Manners
Having read some of the posts recently regarding Fripp's rather standoffish
behavour towards his fans, I thought I'd add my opinion to the heap.

What does an Artist owe his public?  Nothing, other than an honest
dedication to producing the finest art possible.  We recognize when a
creation is "genuine", and not a cynical or facile pastiche.  It's that
"truth" to which we respond.  The person of the artist is immaterial --
what matters is the work.

What does an Entertainer owe the public?  We require our entertainers to
always be "on", to always be in character, to always be entertaining us!
In return for flattering our conceits in this way, we deify our stars, and
in truth our culture has a polytheistic pantheon of demi-gods just as the
ancient Romans and Greeks.  Just think of the cult of Elvis...

I have been a Crimso fan since 1969, when a friend lent me an unlabeled
cassette of ITCOTCK.  To me, much of my early facination with this band was
enhanced by not knowing who any of the musicians were -- or even how many.
I was able to become completely involved with the music without the
distraction of being involved with the personalities behind it.  Once I got
my own copy of the record, and read the names listed, it seemed like a
little of the mystery (and therefore the attraction) was lost.  I sensed,
however, that the band wanted to veil their identities in the choice of
colours for the printed information in the record jackets (The blue-green
lettering on the green-blue background of ITWOP made it practically
unreadable).

Later, in 1978, I attended a solo Frippertronics concert.  Here Fripp was
making every effort to overcome the "artificial delineation between
performer and audience" and tried very hard to get the assembled crowd to
overcome the "vampiric relationship" that exists between fans and a "star"
and in so doing, become equal participants in the musical experience.  At
one point he unplugged his guitar and came out into the audience and walked
around us addressing us directly.  After the show, he came out into the
lobby to meet and talk with the audience.  He made it very clear that he
was trying to overcome what he saw as an obstacle to the apprehension of
Art by asking his audience to put aside the conventions of Entertainment.
Not everyone is willing or able to comply.

I'm not saying Art is necessarily better than Entertainment -- they both
have their place.  The difficulty comes when the aims of Art meet up with
the expectations of Entertainment.  It was just this point that the whole
Frippertronics tour of '78 and the "Drive to '81" was all about.  I suspect
that Fripp has by now decided that he cannot change the world, and rather
than continue to bang his head against the wall, he will retreat (perhaps
mimicing the "Way of Blame" that Bennett ascribed to Gurdjieff).

My problem with this is that it just doesn't work.  By being so prickly, he
cultivates the mystique, just as having no stage lighting on him makes him
MORE conspicuous.  We all key into the personality and risk overlooking the
music.  We all remember the surly shopkeeper who is rude to the customers.
However, a calm civility will often pass unnoticed.

He has chosen to purvey his art within the world of Entertainment.  And
that means dealing with humans who see HIM as being something special,
something elevated, something else.  So he chooses the path of renunciation
-- no spotlights, and a cold aloofness towards the adoring throng.  Of
course this behaviour will be interpreted in all sorts of ways, perhaps
most easily passed of as artistic "temperment".

So do we have a right to be upset when we're on the receiving end of this?
You bet!  But only if we examine our own motives.  Are we approaching him
as a supplicant to a god?  Then we deserve everything we get.  If on the
other hand, there is a genuine wish to acknowledge the influence of
something profound that has occurred through his music, then I feel he
should recognize the authenticity of that urge.  We have a convention in
our society for easing the opportunities for misunderstanding that
inevitably occur between strangers -- manners.

Unless, of course, he sees some value in attracting the sort of negative
attention of which we have heard through various posts.

Then again, maybe I am ascribing to him a god-like self-control and
forbearance that is as interfering to my reception of his art as any
star-struck fan's adulation.  Maybe he's just another human who screws up
from time to time.

Just happens he plays guitar...

---
* Kivi 1.41a *

From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk (Brian Ritchie)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:16:25 +0000
Subject: Re: KC logos: "Discipline not perfect" shock?
On the topic of logos: a little story. (Very much an aside from anything to
do with the music!)

One of my pastimes is creating Celtic knotwork designs.  The thing that got
me interested was the graphic on Discipline.  I thought that it was a
wonderful reflection of the interwoven guitar figures, eg on Frame By Frame
or the title track, and just as difficult to imagine creating from scratch!

My next step after seeing the Discipline design was to get hold of (a
euphemism for "happen to spot") George Bain's "Celtic Art: The Methods Of
Construction", just about the most complete guide there is (though his son
Iain has produced a book concentrating on knotwork that introduces an
easier construction method).  It was great to discover principles for
designing new knotwork instead of just copying the originals.

The original for the Discipline graphic is snuck away in the Bain (I) book;
I was really pleased to find it there.  For anyone who's that bothered,
it's on page 40 of the paperback edition (published in the UK by
Constable).  The original (linear) knot pattern was taken from the Book Of
Lindisfarne (circa 700ad), but it's use in this circular pattern by Bain
may be original (circa 1951 - just a tad later!); at least none of my
source books show any similar examples on their plates.

I spent a lot of time exploring circular knotwork designs after that, in
particular how to make designs of arbitrary depth that formed a single
line, as opposed to several unconnected lines. (The Bain circle and its
Discipline variant both have two lines and two layers.)

Much more recently, I had another look at the Discipline graphic - and
realised that it wasn't quite the same as the "original" in the Bain book.
It's flawed! at least, in the sense that the symmetry of the original
design has been lost.

The Bain design has rotational symmetry of 3, the Discipline graphic has
*none* (or 1, I suppose).  If you trace the Discipline design, you'll see
that there are two separate lines - one that does all the loops of the
knots on the edge, and another shorter line that meanders around, filling
in the bits that the first line missed out. In the original, this shorter
line forms three loops in the inside, but on Discipline, it forms only two,
the lower one being replaced by a "shortcut".  This completely destroys the
symmetry of the original.

Some Indiscipline creeping in, perhaps? I could even believe that it's an
intentional mistake, presaging the asymmetry of Three Of A Perfect Pair.
But I suspect it might just be a case of copyist's error.

I was embarrassed not to have noticed it in 15 years of "not-work"...

Brian

PS It hadn't occurred to me until right now to check whether or not
the Discipline Global Mobile is the same.  Looking at the logo at the
top of the WWW order form, it's quite different.  This time there's
2-way reflectional symmetry.  There are two fewer "outer knots", less
intricacy on the inside, but there's a curious little bit of loopage
at the top.  Quirky!  The design has two lines; one "does" the two
bottom knots and the odd loopage at the top and the other does the two
upper knots.
----
Dr. Brian Ritchie, Systems Engineering Division,
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, DIDCOT, Oxon, UK
WWW URL: http://www.cis.rl.ac.uk/people/br/contact.html

Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 95 07:00:05 EST
From: michael jeter <MDJKB at CUNYVM dot CUNY dot EDU>
Subject:      Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #238
RE:  Belew's Lyriucs:

I think of belew's lyrics as fitting very comfortably intio the best of
american poetry.  He has the ferocious genius and humor of whitman and, at
the same time, is not afraid to enter into the deceptively simple word
games of ee cummings.

Reaction to the Conan'O' Brien Show:

When I saw robert in September, he was smiling.  I hope theat he feels like
smiling when he plays here; he was not smiling last night.  I wish the
camera had shown Trey and Pat more.  Michael PS: again, anyone coming into
NYC for the 22nd show, give me a call(718-372-8556)

To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
In-Reply-To: <9511140511 dot AA27892 at anthor dot arastar dot com>
Subject: Re: Eat a Bug
X-PMFLAGS: 33554560
>From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph)
>
>Which reminds me: fans of the jazzier wackier aspects of the King
>Crimson oeuvre might appreciate Eskimo's recent album _Further
>Adventures of Der Shrimpkin_.  Fairly wild stuff, mostly in a funky
>jazzy vein.  Much fun to be had.  And excellent musicians one and all.

While I don't see much Crimson connection, I agree that Eskimo are
great.  More specifically, if you crossed Zappa's "Grand Wazoo" with
Nick Mason's Fictitious Sports (songs by Carla Bley) you'd have a
pretty close description.  Does humour belong in music?  You bet.

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 11:07:43 -0500
From: rathey at pacific dot mps dot ohio-state dot edu (Rochelle Athey)
Subject: Meeting KC
After reading the comments in ET #237, I wanted to describe my first (and
only) "meeting" with members of KC.  It was in 1983 when I was 19 years
old; a friend of mine who is acquainted with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin
invited me to the show at Blossom Music Center, outside of Cleveland, OH.
I was very unfamiliar with the type of music KC was doing -- I'd heard
ItCotCK, but that's about it.  Anyway, I was blown away by the show
(seventh row) and immediately became a fan.  My friend had backstage passes
so I got to mingle with the band -- Robert was walking around, asking
everyone he saw if we wanted a chocolate from the large box of candies in
his hands.  He seemed very nice.  Adrian was ill with the flu so he did not
stay.  Later in the evening, I was fortunate enough to be invited to a late
dinner with Bill and Tony and my friend.  Both men were extremely
interesting and mannerly.  I remember being amazed by their large hands and
small appetites.

It was one of the best nights of my life and I'll always be grateful for
having had the opportunity to meet Bill and Tony.

Anyway, I saw the early summer shows this year in Cleveland and Cincinnati.
I can't wait for the Nov. 27th show in Columbus!  This band just gets
better and better.

Another female who "gets it" --

Rochelle
http://www-physics.mps.ohio-state.edu/~discover/athey.html

Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:26:37 EST
From: michael jeter <MDJKB at CUNYVM dot CUNY dot EDU>
Subject:      Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #236
The Warr Guitar is not a product of Stick(TM) Enterprises, but is the
product of Mr. Mark Warr.  As I understand it, Mr. Warr asked Emmett
Chapman, ownter of STICK Enterprises and inventor of the Chapman Stick(TM)
to build a custom Stick.  While Mr. Chapman does make custom instruments,
the specificatiolns that Mark wanted were evidently not something SE was
able to do, so Warr has produced an instrument to his own specs.

Michael

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:29:11 -0600
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
From: medtek at ghgcorp dot com (Sandra J. Prow)
Subject: Aloof Fripp and things that hit him..
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 01:24:26 -0500 (EST)
>From: Gideon B Banner <gideon dot banner at yale dot edu>
>Subject: More blab from me
>
>In the last issue Randall Powell had the kindness to write about his
>undying dislike of Mr. Fripp.  

I agree with Gideon.  What do you guys expect from Fripp?  You know he's
like this, on the very nice Yes video we have, even Bruford says he's
pompous (or something like that).  Robert Fripp provides us beautiful and
unusual music, as well as a very valid and interesting philosophy for life
in general.  Who ever said the man had to be approachable?  While is he is a
public figure, he is apparently an intensely private person.  Why?  Is that
any of our business?  He's kind enough to share his music with us.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that he's any sort of a bad person at
all.  He's not asking you to like him.  He's not even asking you to like his
music.  The music and the words he writes are there.  Why they're there is
his business.  How they affect you is yours.
__________
Regarding things that hit Fripp in the night...

>> So from these accounts we've got a small frisbee-like, red and white coca
>> cola can colored, halloween mask-like, crushed plastic cup-like, more than
>> paper/perhaps a cassette tape-like, program/plastic water bottle-like
>> object.  Can anyone settle this and provide the definitive definition of
>> what did in fact hit Mr Fripp on Halloween night in Fort Worth, Texas?

In Trey Gunn's road diary at rockslides he says Fripp was hit with a CD
thrown from the audience.  He further says that not only will this guy not
get his CD listened to, he'll never work in he music industry again!
______ Regarding loud crowd people...

>I was worried about the Atlanta crowd, but was very surprised! I only
>     heard one person yell "Freebird" all night long,

It must be universal. They (the boisterous drunk guys in my previous post)
were doing the same at New Orleans and Paul Richards gave them a really cute
puzzled look.

One woman's opinion....

~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|
                         http://www.ghgcorp.com/medtek
Sandra J. Prow                   |    I don't represent anyone,
medtek at ghgcorp dot com               |        Not that anyone
medtek at bix dot com                   |      Would want me to....

Date:         Tue, 14 Nov 95 19:57:55 EST
From: michael jeter <MDJKB at CUNYVM dot CUNY dot EDU>
Subject:      Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #237
Just a reminder...anyone who is coming to the NYC show on the 22,
contact me(718-372-8556).  Does anyone know of a restaurant
by the longacre where we can meet?  Thanks:-)

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:35:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "Charles E. Hoskins - Propst" <charlesh at psy dot psych dot nova dot edu>
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #236
Regarding the gentleman who got the big brush off from Fripp.  It reminds
me of a spoken line on the Exposure album (I believe it's J.G. Bennett's
voice) to the effect: "If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike
people, it is no obstacle to work."  This is very likely a
self-reflective comment on Fripp's part.  It doesn't excuse biting the
hand that feeds him, but it may indicate an awareness on his part that he
can come across to fans as a jerk.  Another line from the same album
states "It's all a big hoax."  Given many KC fans' tendency to idolize
Mr. Fripp (myself often included), it might behoove us to take these
words to heart.

Eric

From: "Peter" <pes94001 at uconnvm dot uconn dot edu>
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:00:37 +0000
Subject: "The First Day"- Fripp & Gunn
I have a question about The First Day that's come to mind recently.
Is Trey Gunn's stick playing as "out there" on this album as it is on
THRAK and tBB?  This was the first Fripp "solo" album that I bought
and I always assumed that all the amazing lead work on songs like
"Darshan" and "Firepower" were all Fripp.  Does Gunn play lead on
anything or is he really being the rhythm man this time?

Pete

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:13:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam Levin <alevin at ari dot net>
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: The mystery object in Dallas
According to Trey Gunn's tour diary:

"When we were in ...... Dallas???...... during the bows at the end of the
show some idiot threw his CD and it hit Robert right in the head. Though
it obviously wasn't a malicious act, the stupidity was unbelievable. Not
only will this loser's CD never be heard by any of us, HE'LL NEVER WORK IN
THE MUSIC BUSINESS AGAIN."

For more road anecdotes check out :

   http://www.rockslide.com/crimson/trey/diary.html

 -Adam

---
       "A baked potato is more intelligent than a raw potato."
                         - G.I. Gurdjieff

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:49:19 -0500
From: MatrickIV at aol dot com
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: Re: Fripped-Out
      I was sorry to hear about the bad experiences that people have had just
trying to say "Howdy!" to Mr. Fripp.  I have to admit that I to was very
disappointed to hear that Robert doesn't come off as a "nice guy" to his
fans.  However, I cannot hold this against him since I do not know him
personally and above all it will never affect my impression of his music.
                                                                    The fact
of the matter is that if Mr. Fripp was a true egotist he could have his
little pedistal and stool moved out in front of the theater stages with spot
lights surrounding him while playing blazing guitar solos all night long.  We
all know this is not the case.  As a musicain Mr. Fripp is not selfish for
the glory.  It is his musical vision that guides the ultimate sound of KC,
but KC is not just the Robert Fripp extravaganza.  He gives the whole band
the spot light while he sits in the darkness and decorates the music with
different textures of sound.

                                                                        True,
he may be opinionated, but who isn't.  True, he may be intraverted and
anti-social, but there are many musicians who are this way.  This is not
limited to the "rock-star" attitude.   From what I have read about RF he
seems like a very focused and complicated individual.  Often people like this
live in a hermit like environment just and don't know how to communicate one
on one with people.  Robert communicates to us (his fans) through his music.
 That is what is most important to me.

Just had to say my Peace and try to provide another perspective.

MatrickIV

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 00:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
From: Nadav Caine <nadav at leland dot stanford dot edu>
Subject: the thread of Fripp's dismissal of fans
BK writes:
>Randall Powell posts the following message (edited for brevity),
>documenting his experience with Mr. Fripp:
>
>>I was quite excited to see Fripp at the back...drinking a cup of coffee.
>>I politely said "Excuse me,"... Without...the courtesy of acknowledgment
>>he raised his hand as if to shield his ears and face from contact
>>with a commoner...
>
>Well, Randy get ready for the deluge of replies from those who will defend
>Fripp to the death...

I won't defend Fripp, and I wholly support BK's later, balanced discussion
of the difficulties of taking offense at artists.  (In fact, I am quite
pleased with the level of articulacy in a number of recent posts.)  My only
comment is that discussion of Fripp's annoyance with fans never seems to
get at the main thing that always gets to me: namely, what does one say
besides "your music has meant a lot to me"?  I often imagine what I would
say to Fripp and I even my best prepared statements are really just
intellectualized forms of that.  It's rather tiresome.  He gives me his
art, and I return the favor by attentive listening. I must make myself
remember that, and not get the urge to "shake a hand" or take a blurry
photo.  At a Soundscapes tour in San Francisco, Fripp bowed to me as I said
"Thank you" on his way into the dressing room after the first set, and then
played acoustic at my table to close the second set.  I thought these were
signs that he could see (it being a small place) that I and my companion
were FULLY attentive to what he was doing.  (Fripp and KC concerts are so
often a pleasure for actually seeing so many others with their eyes closed
--the discipline!-- totally concentrating on the
whole-as-greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts product.)  It seems this is, or
should be, the appropriate context of personal respects.  --Nadav
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~nadav/

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 00:49:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Jefferson <jeffer at ThoughtPort dot COM>
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: KC on Conan O'Brian
Dear fellow KC fans:

  I decided to stay up tonight and watch Late Night with Conan O'Brian to
see King Crimson, much to the chagrin of my parents. Unless I had a small
lapse of consciousness, I remember seeing the six of them play only
"Dinosaur". While I feel that's a prefectly good song to play, I was
quite disappointed that the instrumental section of the song was deleted,
which gives the song an extra dimension of beauty. However, this *was* my
first time ever seeing the group (both in terms of performance and in
terms of actual pictures of them). Now, if KC would just broadcast one of
their concerts on television...:)

Rob

// Robert Jefferson -- Student, Net Surfer, and 21st Century Digital Boy
// Whitney Young Magnet High School, Chicago
// Email: jeffer at thoughtport dot com
// "Idleness and dissipation breed apathy." -- Greg Graffin

To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: (no subject)
I just picked up 'The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles & Fripp' CD for
$12.99 at a Miami record store that specializes in, amongst other things,
offbeat stuff from the 60s and 70s (Yesterday & Today Records).  This is a
1992 Deram/Polygram release manufactured in the US, and contains six bonus
tracks - "She Is Loaded", "Under The Sky", and alternative versions of "One
In A Million", "Newly-Weds", and "Thursday Morning".  First time I had seen
it on CD.  I've seen the LP version of this album only once - in the record
department of a Woolworth's in Indianapolis, of all places, in 1976.  The
only reason I didn't buy it then because I was en route from Florida to
southern Mexico for three months in a non-air-conditioned car, and didn't
think the record could survive the trip.

Musically, this reminds me a little bit of the later 'MacDonald & Giles'
album, as well as Kevin Ayers-era Soft Machine.  The cover photo is a gem -
the three members trying to appear cheerfully insane.  Fripp has a slightly
goofy, stoned-appearing smile, while Michael Giles has a forced grin that
can only be described as a pained grimace.  In the other shots, there's
Fripp with a black tuxedo with long brown tresses or a chauffeur's cap,
trying to do his best imitation of a loony - he doesn't appear to be very
comfortable with the poses.  Is that a welder's glove on his right hand?  I
suppose that the record company insisted on the silly pictures.  I wonder
what goes through Fripp's mind when he sees these photos now - no wonder
his demeanor became so serious in KC!

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 02:27:47 -0500
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
From: kenth at magicnet dot net (Kent Huffnagle)
Subject: KC on Conan
        Did anyone tape KC on Conan O'Brien?

        I tuned in and watched the whole show, but the station
that I get NBC on, cut in right at the end segment, right before
KC went on. They were showing the docking of the U.S. and the
Russians (or whatever they are now) space stations.
Who cares? Anyway, they came back to the program at the last chorus.
I missed practicaly the whole thing. Could someone please make me
a copy? I would do anything. Please, please, please.

Please write me,
Kent  email: kenth at magicnet dot net

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 02:32:23 -0500 (EST)
From: JEB <jeb at ingress dot com>
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #238
Was that great or what? Long live Conan!!!!

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 03:23:17 -0500
From: ad827 at freenet dot carleton dot ca (Jeff Green)
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: The Cult of Fripp, The Conan Event
Just a couple of notes in the wake of the Conan show, (which will
doubtless be the cause of a flood of posts, doubtless in this very same
digest).  I don't think Fripp has EVER been this well lit!  And leaning
forward to shake Conan's hand seemed like the most alien of gestures for
him!  Such a gas to see the boys on network television!  They were just
fine, of course, if lacking some of the ragged intensity when I saw them
in Montreal.  Hope this appearance moves a lot of Thraks.
	As for the (ooccasinally bitter) thread on Robert's apparent
aversion to fan contact, a couple of observations.  Due to a privileged
position in media I have had the good fortune of speaking with him several
times, and always found him an amiable individual, though certainly more
reserved in nature than his cheerful bandmates.  A couple of encounters,
and many I have heard about, and many more read about in these pages,
occurred in extremely public settings before or after shows, in or around
the venue (my favourite: a friend saw him playing pinball a few hours
before a League of Gentlemen show and greeted him with a gleeful "Check it
out!  Flippertronics!"), which shows a very different attitude towards the
public than many of his contemporaries.  Fripp has been quoted as noting
the importance of spending time in laundromats and on public transit,
presumably to gain access to universal truths of commonality in the human
experience.  To suggest that because he is present and accessible means he
has to be entertaining and grateful does not follow for me.  I happen to
hate the kind of aggressive hawkers in places like Times Square who will go
so far as to grab your arm to steer you towards their wares, making the
unfair assumption that just because you are there they somehow already own
a piece of you.  That Fripp is unusual goes without saying, that he wants
to retain a sense of contact with the real world seems admirable, that he
does this despite the kind of draining accostations that can plague a
celebrity with a cult-like following (and sends most of them into
seclusion) is astonishing, that he sometimes appears standoffish hardly
surprising.

Jeff Green

From: LanSharc at ix dot netcom dot com (DirkBill)
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: Life with the King
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:39:06 GMT
After witnessing the show in Orlando I feel compelled to share my thoughts
that have been building for the last several months.

I enjoyed Adrian ALOT more than I thought I would. We had a chance to
listen to "Guitar as Orchestra" before the show, and I I've already
purchased it.

The first time I heard Vroom, I thought is was good in spots. The first
time I heard THRAK, I thought is was OK ( being a KC fan for my whole life
). This was right after I discoverd "Damage Live" , which I felt was the
best music I have heard in 10 years!! I now LOVE all the new KC stuff, and
have come to the conclusion that of the most important music to come out
over the last decade, Fripp has been involved in it all. It was encouraging
to hear that Sylvian was invited to be part of the new KC.

The show was one of best I've ever seen, and I will be GREATLY disappointed
if this line up does not do more, and stay together for a few years.

To all the people who complain about Fripp's stage presence, get a life! I
thought his presence on stage was PERFECT. I expected not to see him at
all, and was delighted with the indirect light effect.

I loved the call to ceremonies by the drummers ( being a drummer myself
). To see Bill live was an inspiration. Both Mastelotto and Gunn are
underrated by most. Their contribution should not be overlooked.

The middle aged ushers at the Tupperwear Theater told us that we could not
enter the hall while " the King " was singing, and that we would have to
wait untill " he " finished before we could enter - cute. The Tupperwear is
a great place to see a show.

Can't remember anyone mentioning the merchandise. The black baseball hat
with the double trio symbol was great.There was a spendid assortment of
shirts. I got a chance to see the metal box ( did not buy it ) . The tour
program was a must at 15.00 ( I bought 2 ), it has a brief history of the
band by Robert. The red colored Vroom hat was OK. I wonder why this stuff
is not available through Possible Productions?!?

Robert Fripp is a guitar god. The collective soul of KC is making the best music today.

Adrian DOES show his John Lennon influence on THRAK.

Fan for life,

DirkBill

To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
From: David Maclennan <davidm at cs dot moc dot govt dot nz>
Sender: davidm at cs dot moc dot govt dot nz
Subject: Re: Fripp-off
Date: 15 Nov 1995 15:08:20 +1200
IMHO, neither Brian Momchilov nor Ed Korczynski provided a satisfactory
response to the original "Fripp-off" posting.  The original poster's
response to being snubbed by Fripp may have been a bit OTT, but he did have
a point.

Fripp gives his all in a KC concert and sure, he's tired and drained at the
end of it.  But what about the other five members?  They put as much into
it as Fripp, yet by all accounts are quite happy to talk to fans.  So why
should Fripp find this so difficult?

All this stuff about the "vampiric nature of the music biz" is just so much
crap.  In the music biz, talking to your fans -- you know, those people
who, by shelling out their hard-earned money for your
albums/gigs/overpriced tour merchandise, helped put your where you are
today -- goes with the teriitory, however trying it can sometimes be.

On the other hand, the fans have a responsibility to exercise a bit of
judgement, too.  The account of seeing Fripp alone in a cafe obviously
meditating in some way is one such example: in that case anyone with half a
brain could see that he wanted to be alone, and was therefore deserving of
that consideration.

Being an "artist" is no excuse for being a jerk.  We are all of us on this
planet for a comparatively short span of years, and it behooves us all to
try and be nice to other people and try to see things from other than one's
own perspective.  A little kindness and consideration never hurt anyone,
not even well-respected musicians.

-- David Maclennan

From: Glenn_Coxhead%neca dot nec dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Date: 15 Nov 95 15:11:03 -0500
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: King Crimson Merchandise
     Yesterday I received my order from Mark Perry at Possible Productions
     (PossPod at aol dot com) and it only took a bit over 2 weeks to get here!
     Talk about great service! Most things take 4-8 weeks to get here.
     Judging from the sales receipt and postage marks the order was filled
     and posted the day I faxed them.

     Anyway, I'm now the proud owner of 5 totally cool T-shirts
     (Discipline, Lark's, Red, Starless, and In the Court..), a Discipline
     Records poster and the King Crimson Screensaver (complete with
     discography and history by Mr. Fripp himself!).  Thanks Toby for
     posting the info about the merchandise on the ET Web site.

     Living here in Australia, the only way to get any form of Merchandise
     is via mail-order as bands such as King Crimson NEVER tour here!

     Thanks to all the ETers that take the time to post reviews.  It's
     great to hear how awesome the concerts are.  I only wish I could post
     a review!  Will I EVER see them in concert?  Sadly, probably not......

     Getting a bit off the track, if anybody is interested, Australia's
     only surviving Progressive Rock band ARAGON has finally released their
     'Rock Opera' Mouse!  I think it's only available from SI Music in the
     Netherlands though.  Crazy Huh!  The band lives 15 mins. from me but
     the only way I can get their CD is via mail-order from SI Music!

     Oh well, back to work.......

     Glenn
     Melbourne, Australia

From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 17:24:49 JST
To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Subject: Bill Bruford Interview
Hi Everybody,

This is a translation of an interview with B. Bruford. The original
interview article appeared in a recent Japanese magazine for musicians.

Int: Are there clear differences among the audience of different countries?

BB: Yes, of course. As always Japanese audience are very quiet. I can see
their respect towards artists and entertainers.

Int: Are the stages going to be different every night?

BB: Yes. We do it that way. Otherwise both the band and the audience will
get bored and sleepy.

Int: Does that include your style of performance? You do not only change
the order of the songs or the selection of songs but also play the same
song differently from yesterday's stage?

BB: That is case by case. It might sound a bit private but our songs have
two parts, one that allows improvisations of each person and one that you
are only allowed to play as it is made. So for the part where improvisation
is OK, the playing style is up to each individual. For example,
Discipline. A part of that song is changed every night. (T. Ohsawa's
comment: I think this is a mistyping. It is probaby Indiscipline.)

Int: Regarding those improvisation parts, do you discuss among the members
before a concert to sort out things?

BB: It depends on time and occasion. We may decide precisely to the details
or we may discuss nothing and make it a surprise. A typical example of
surprise is Thrak. The middle part of that song is completely improvised.
It is up to each individual member. So everytime nobody knows what the
style of the song would be (laughs). If one member does the improvisation,
the other members would respond by improvisation. That's King Crimson. I
wish the audience do enjoy those interactions on stage.

Int: It was impressive for me to see you on stage enjoying very much. Is
the band going well internally?

BB: Of course. Even when you compare it with before, it's the best. We are
having fun playing.

(to be continued)

Bye, Tom

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 05:40:16 -0800
From: Sonnenberg1/Apple at eworld dot com
Subject: For the Mel Collins Completist
Old news, no doubt, but...  Check out the lovely work by Mel Collins on the
Tears for Fears song "The Working Hour" from the album Songs from the Big
Chair...

P

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:07:19 -0600
From: basilisk at mail dot utexas dot edu (Leon Marcus)
Subject: ingesting "substances"
In response to Gideon Banner's question about what sort of substances to
ingest before a KC show:

Well, first of all, I don't think this is quite the right forum for a
question of this nature.  Toby has worked hard to keep this one of the most
educated and intelligent mailing lists around, and the last thing we need
is to degenerate into a discussion of which drugs are most fun at a show.
However, I will answer the question seriously in hopes that we can drop the
subject and not have to argue about it.

My personal opinion is that the "substance" worth ingesting before a KC
show would be a glass of water and a light meal.  It seems to me that if
you want to appreciate the music to the fullest you have to be in a state
of mind where you can maintain the lucidity to catch all the nuance and
subtley of King Crimson's music. I find that I treasure an experience much
more if I can be aware of all its facets, and I don't need something
muddling up my thinking.

Then again this is just my opinion.  Feel free to do whatever suits you
best.

Leon

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:22:20 -0500
From: JMShephe at softart dot com (JMShephe)
Subject: KC on Conan O'Brien
     Delurking:

     Just stayed up WAY too late last night to see KC on the Conan O'Brien
     Show. It was truly a test of my fortitude, not only by trying to stay
     awake, but also sitting through the interminable "comedy" that was
     proffered. Finally KC was introduced, the last act. The studio
     audience when nuts, so I assume many of you were there. I Taped it.
     They did the abbreviated version of Dinosaur.  Not as good as live,
     I'd rather have been there to feel that raw outpouring of energy
     again. Unfortuantely the camera geometries did not allow the viewer to
     clearly see the double trio formation. Nice close-ups and cross cuts
     to Fripp and Belew, though. Nice to see them on TV again.

     Back to down-below...

     JS

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:18:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Austen Wallace <rwallace at warren-wilson dot edu>
Subject: KC on Conan O'Brian
	My name is Richard Wallace, and I am still relatively new to the
world of KC; I just got into them last year and my horizons have not yet
been expanded beyond the Discipline era, with the exception of a few songs
like 21CSM, Catfood, Great Deceiver, Lark's Tongue, and Red. This is mainly
due to my lack of funds. I'm sure I'll get around to it in the near future.
	Needless to say, this band so far hasn't stopped mesmerizing me
with their synergistic musical style. The fact that humans can make noises
that beautiful gives me hope for the state of music in a world chock full
of Hooties and Stone Temple Pilots.
	I was ecstatic to hear that King Crimson would be appearing on
Conan O'Brian; it's hard enough to get a glimpse of what they look like,
much less actually see them play even if it is on a major network.
	From the start of the show, it became obvious that KC was way out
of their element. When announcing the lineup for his show, Mr. O'Brian made
a silly wrinkled face after saying "tonight's musical guest: King
Crimson...". It was pretty apparent that he had no idea who they were.
What made it worse was the overall obnoxiousness of his other guests.
	So they finally come on at 1:25 and play a compressed version of
Dinosaur, sans the mellotron interlude. Despite the fact that they were
playing to an audience who probably would've preferred to see Green Day,
they held their ground with poise and stature.
	Their performance was pretty energetic, although the sound system
left something to be desired. This was to be expected tho', considering
they were allotted a whopping five minute time slot to do their thing.
	Although the other band members exhibited a much more external form
of energy, it was Robert Fripp's presence that captivated me the most. He
sat in the back and moved only when the music deemed it necessary. To
non-KC fans, he probably looked like some studio musician who was along for
the ride. To me, however, his presence was very nucleic. His facial
expressions (or lack thereof) looked as if he was controlling the rest of
the band with some sort of telepathic power known only to musicians of the
highest caliber. It's amazing how minimalism can be so overwhelming.
	Anyway, I'm not going to assume that this show was an accurate clip
of what a KC concert would be like; it's hard to hypnotize the crowd in
five minutes. Nonetheless, they were was entertaining as they could be on a
cheesy late night show.
	If there are any videotapes of Kc live performances, please let me
know. I know that nothing could compare to being there firsthand, but
scraping up the money to do that is an impossibility for me right now.
	Thanks,
	Richard.
	"I'd give my right arm to be in Def Leppard."-- Andy Partridge of XTC

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:38:31 -0700 (MST)
From: mike balistreri <mikebal at unm dot edu>
Subject: please, please, please...
Greetings Fellow Crimgeeks,

I cant't believe this!  It's a good thing Toby runs a family show or this
screen would be full of language like you've never seen.

Not being one of the fortunates who was able to see the band in concert I
was looking ever so forward to at least being able to see them on the Conan
O'Brien show last night.  Being a working stiff, I knew there was no way I
could stay awake until midnight so I asked a friend to tape it for me.  She
did, but it turns out the show started 15 minutes late so the main event
was never taped (this is were the swearing starts).

So please please please if anyone could make a copy of the show for me I
would be forever in your debt.  Please send me e-mail direct and we can
work out the specifics.

Thanks, and more thanks,
-Mike Balistreri

mikebal at unm dot edu

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:33:27 GMT
From: sheehanm at rosnet dot strose dot edu (Michael Sheehan)
>>>
As a personal experience, on the last Fripp solo-tour in California, we sat
down at a table at the back of the club and looking around notice Robert
Fripp sitting two tables away from us in the very back corner.  He was
sitting moderately upright in a chair, not moving, with his eyes open.  He
looked poised yet relaxed.  As people who have also spent many years in
meditation practice, it was obvious to us that he was engaged in some sort
of centering/focussing/meditation.  Mostly as a joke, to see how stable he
was, I turned to look at him, smiled and waved.  He didn't move, as I
expected, and we respectfully left him in peace.  Twenty minutes later, he
was sitting in the same state with a guitar on his lap on stage and the
show began.

Do not criticise that which you do not understand.

Repeat as necessary,
-edo
<<<

What a load of pretetntious, pompous codswallop. Almost as tiresome as
Fripp's vague imprecations and pompous declarations of his art's worth are
the "Fripp-a-like" I see at KC shows, Fripp wannabees right down to the
glasses and hair who practice the same affectations that really make me
laugh at Fripp, the human being, versus Fripp, the guitar player. I am
second to none in my appreciation of his guitar playing, but how can anyone
take himself soooo seriously? It's not like he's Albert Schweitzer for
God's sake--he's a POP MUSICIAN.  I've been blown off by Fripp, too--but I
still buy his recors --records, rather--because I like his music. But he's
a pompous blowhard who changes his tune every few years just to keep the
credulous dangling on the wire. As to his meditating at a table in a club,
edo, and your truly obnoxious and insulting remarks to Randall, in
Randall's situation, he was hardly meditating, just enjoying a good cup of
joe. His hogwash about vampiric relationships between artist and audience
have no worth to me; he's sucked many many hundreds of dollars out of my
pocket, truly an economic Lestat. He can "vam,piric relationship" about it
all he wants, but clearly he's content with it as long as *he* gets to be
the vampire.  ANyhow--it was more the tone of edo's remarks ("Do not
criticize what you do not understand") that really set my hair up.  I have
no use for this sort of holier-than-thou pomposity which seems so common
among Fripp fans--as if appreciation of Fripp's music has somehow rubbed
off on them, allowing them to adopt his pretentious affectations. Get over
yourself, edo.  Mike Sheehan sheehanm at rosnet dot strose dot edu

From: rhea at sas dot upenn dot edu (Rhea A Frankel)
Subject: FRIPP-OFF
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:03:49 -0500 (EST)
Hi everyone,

I have to share my experience of meeting Fripp now. I'm a relatively new
Crimson fan; as of last June I was unaware of Fripp's attitudes toward
meeting fans. When I travelled up to New York to see them at the Town
Hall, I arrived in the afternoon, so that hopefully I could meet the band
when they arrived for the soundcheck. I had heard from people at a show I
attended a few days earlier in Philly that Fripp was not very
approachable, but that was all I knew.

Fripp arrived and was walking towards the entrance of the Town Hall.
Remembering the warnings I had received from other fans, I was careful
not to walk right up to him. I walked to within ten feet of him, and
asked him if he would please sign my Discipline album. He looked at me
and said "Can I blow you a kiss instead?" This was not what I was
expecting to hear from him, and for a moment I was speechless. He blew me
a kiss and walked away. I think I thanked him afterwards. The rest of the
day I remember being absolutely thrilled that Fripp spoke to me. Fripp is
the only musician I've ever met who wouldn't sign a autograph for me. He
has his reasons, and I'd never ask him again, but I'm really glad that he
did take a moment to speak to me.

Rhea Frankel

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:27:55 EST
From: david at visix dot com (David Charlap)
Subject: Re:  Elephant-talk digest v95 #238
Subject: Re: Fripp-Off

bkm at HiWAAY dot net (B.K. Momchilov)
>>
>>I was quite excited to see Fripp at the back...drinking a cup of
>>coffee.  I politely said "Excuse me,"... Without...the courtesy of
>>acknowledgment he raised his hand as if to shield his ears and face
>>from contact with a commoner...
>
>Well, Randy get ready for the deluge of replies from those who will
>defend Fripp to the death.  By the time this is over they will try to
>make you feel like YOU should apologize to Fripp for "bothering" HIM.

Not from me.  I agree 100%.  From everything I've read, heard, and
otherwise seen, the only think Robert Fripp has is his abilities as a
musician.  I've seen nothing that indicates him having ANY other
redeeming qualities.  He sounds like a rude, abusive, disgusting
example of a human being.

Mind you, I don't hold this against the rest of the band.  I've had
occasion to meet Adrian, and I've seen/read/heard much about Bill.
They strike me as very good people, in addition to their abilities to
play their instrumments.

>Before a KC show this past June I was scolded by Tony Levin for
>taking his picture through an open window.

Not surprised.  If you took my picture through my apartment window,
I'd scold you as well.  Wanting to be left alone when in a crowd of
fans is one thing.  Wanting to be left alone when in private is quite
another.

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:40:43 EST
From: david at visix dot com (David Charlap)
Subject: Re:  Elephant-talk digest v95 #238
Subject: Trey Gunn's road diary

Excepted from http://www.rockslide.com/crimson/trey/diary.html:
>
>When we were in ...... Dallas???...... during the bows at the end of
>the show some idiot threw his CD and it hit Robert right in the
>head. Though it obviously wasn't a malicious act, the stupidity was
>unbelievable. Not only will this loser's CD never be heard by any of
>us, HE'LL NEVER WORK IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS AGAIN.

I read this.  It strikes me as very amusing.  Does Robert (or Trey?)
think he is so big in the music industry that he can break another
artist with a nod of the head?  I really don't think anyone in KC went
around calling record publishers telling them "don't every publish
anything by...".  And even if they did, the response would almost
certainly be "Who cares what you think?  You're not recording on my
label."

Robert should realize that he (and King Crimson in general) is not a
superstar band.  Record companies are not going to bow down and kiss
his feet.  Maybe they would if he was on the level of Pink Floyd (who
manage to sell out football stadiums), but he's nowhere near that
level of popularity.

I think he's a very good musician (at least the stuff he's done with
KC), but record companies don't care about talent or music.  They only
care about what will sell.

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 08:01:23 -0500
From: kenth at magicnet dot net (Kent Huffnagle)
Subject: Orlando 11-9 Review
This my account of 11\9\95 KC in Kissimmee, Florida
        at the Turpperware Aud.

King Crimson in their 90's version, have ruineqd live music for me for at
least a little while.

	It has been five days since the Orlando show (11\9) and I can't
wait till they come back.  Yesterday, I saw my other favorite band and
honestly, they left me limp(all I could think about was KC).  I wish that I
had seen them before KC it would have probably been much easier to
tolerate.

	The show on 11\9 in Kissimmee,(located just south if Orlando), was
nothing less than incredible.  I don't think I have had a better concert
experience in my whole life, and I have been to a lot of concerts.

	The evening started off by a man ushering me to my seat (third
row).  The California Guitar Trio was simply amazing for about a half an
hour.  Then, they took the stage.  I had my eyes glued to Robert Fripp, for
as often as possible. There was so much activity it was hard to focus on
which guy was shredding the most. But, I tried to watch Fripp as much as
possible. For they next hour and a half (or so, time kind of escaped me for
awhile), I was mesmerized, and completely entranced by the beautifully
complex precision of dissonant and rhythmic fury that took place live on
stage. I don't think I can really express the intense emotions that I feel
towards this unbelievable ensemble in simple words. But, I will be trying
for many weeks to come.

	My account of St. Pete was a little off. You will have to excuse me
for I was still in shock when I wrote that review. So here are a few notes
or corrections.

	Vroom and Vroom Vroom played not Vroom coda,LTiAII (don't know how
I forgot that)

	Differences in Orlando were: One Time instead of People, solo
sections were different, no soundscapes like in St. Pete, LTiAII was
extended as the 2nd encore in Orlando For the most part, same songs
slightly different order.

 	After the show in Kissimmee, I was back stage again, cool huh? My
boss will get a big thank you from me. Adrian was the only one that we saw
come out. But, later I found out that Bill Bruford and Tony Levin did
eventually come out, but I was already gone, (drag).

	Adrian said that they were planning to do some shows next summer,
possibly some outdoor festivals (where I don't know).But wasn't sure if
shows were on for Spring.  However, I will make a point of catching as many
shows as possible.

	Also, on my last letter my spell checker changed Belew to
Bellow's. I'm terribly sorry that I didn't catch that I am so
embarrassed. Forgive me.

	Anyway all I have left to say is I must see them again and again
and again and again!!!

	A note to Robert Fripp: Please don't get discouraged with some of
the audience that attends your shows. Because there are many of us who love
your music and are very thankful that you put together the dream team of
seriously professional musicians and played for many people very much into
your music.

         Hope to see you very soon and many more times.

	Thank you again for all the music,

	Kent Huffnagle

From: "Mathews, Thomas J." <tjm4 at NCH08A dot EM dot CDC dot GOV>
Subject: Gig Review: Atlanta for my B-day
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 09:43:00 EST
Flew down from DC for both Atlanta shows during my birthday weekend.  Took
a non KC listener to 11/11. Her words at the end were, "I like it!"  What a
gal.

A previous reviewer said no one knew who CGT was but this was not my case
at all. I had talked to Paul at the Fripp/CGT/LGA show in DC just a few
months back and had mentioned some complaints here about the sound of the
guitars they used. He said new guitars were in works. For the 11/11 show he
hadn't made the transition but his two buds had. On 11/12 (the b-day) we
listened to all three playing new guitars. It sounded so much warmer. I did
yell (politely of course) "we like your new guitars" to which Paul rocked
back and smiled.  After that show I talked to Paul again (he guessed that I
was the one who yelled). He said that backstage Robert gave him the thumbs
up while saying, "new guitars".  He also said Fripp was in the audience
during their set. [ I hear this so often and did meet Fripp this way at an
Arizona show in the 80s. I think it's a way for Fripp to get a feeling
about the audience. Comments?? ]

A few important notes on KC:

Clearly Pat and Trey have moved way up in importance. The drumming was a
big part of both shows and Pat never let up. He was jumping up and down on
that stool having a great time. (Are there interviews where Pat talks about
drumming? Anil? )  Trey has a few more leads now (People and Dinosaur) both
hot. The Warr Guitar and Stick solos (they sure seemed improv to me) were
both very different. As mentioned on 11/11 they sort of stopped each other
short until Tony eventually put his hands on his hips causing a mighty
audience uproar but Trey stood his ground.  On 11/12 Tony just stuck to a
repeating rhythm while Trey played a true lead showing off what that Warr
Guitar can do. Now that was good.

They did some real space jams both nights. I liked the 11/11 better.  The
Atlanta audience has my compliments! There was a moment in the space when
the sound level dropped way off to the point of TOTAL SILENCE. It was
amazing. The band or God brought the audience to a point of
understanding. A++ The second night there was some yelling and that just
busted up the moment of peace.

Robert's soundscapes were both short for my tastes. But I figure some folks
just don't get that stuff. It's really good to have it in the show if even
a taste. Nice green lighting.

So as the US GOV shuts down I say ta-ta, tj

To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
From: whatthat at nando dot net
Subject: ET:  Re: KC Atlanta show 11/11
My extra-musical concert memories of this show include (I had balcony seats):

        1.  A bunch of people yelling song titles ("Cat Food" was the most
ridiculous request if you discount "Free Bird") and someone in the balcony
yelling back "Play what you want!"  I was looking at Fripp through field
glasses at the time and he visibly laughed.

        2.  An amazing light show.

        3.  Some nut in the balcony wanting "what they're on" when he heard
them play their amazing improvisation.  Someone told him "they're on pure
air", where the guy sitting next to me sent back "No, they're on music."

        4.  Fripp shading his eyes he finally stepped into the spotlight at
the end of the main set, before the encore.  He looked bewildered that the
audience was going as bonkers as they were.

        5.  A couple of the people in the audience bantered with Adrian
during "Indiscipline":  "...playing little games to see if I still liked
it."  "Well did you?"  "I DID!"

The only real disappointment was that when the band performed "Neurotica",
Adrian's spoken verses were either on tape or in a sampler.

Humorous musical moments include:

        1.  The LONG pause in the middle of "Thrak" while Fripp waited for
everyone to shut up.

        2.  During "Sex Sleep" (I think) there was a stretch where Fripp was
resting.  He had maybe four two bar lines in a sixteen bar stretch, and they
were spaced out.  It was very humourous to see him calmly play one of these
lines while the most insane heavy metal howl came rolling out of the speakers.
        3.  "Frame by Frame" was interesting because Fripp, Trey, and Tony
alternated the fast ostinato, and it was very difficult to tell who was
playing it.

Must go watch Conan, to see them now, and wish they would play more dates in
the south...


Mike Stok