From elephant-talk at arastar dot comWed Nov 15 07:11:13 1995 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:19:41 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #238 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 238, Tuesday, 14 November 1995 Today's Topics: Re: Fripp-Off Belew - Zappa Re: Fripp & Bowie Trey Gunn's road diary re: sythesizers Re: ET What hit Fripp? re: Fripp & Bowie re: ET's tone Belew's Lyrics WHAT HIT FRIPP IN THE HEAD Fripp verses the Vampires. Re: Fripp & Bowie Re- Fripp-Off Bowie & Fripp Re: David Sylvian / Holger Czukay TIX NYC Tix for sale 11/21 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW Home: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/et/ Topic Index: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/topics-index/etopics.html FAQ: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/faq.html FTP The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:44:40 -0600 From: bkm at HiWAAY dot net (B.K. Momchilov) Subject: Re: Fripp-Off Randall Powell posts the following message (edited for brevity), documenting his experience with Mr. Fripp: >I was quite excited to see Fripp at the back...drinking a cup of coffee. >I politely said "Excuse me,"... Without...the courtesy of acknowledgment >he raised his hand as if to shield his ears and face from contact >with a commoner... Well, Randy get ready for the deluge of replies from those who will defend Fripp to the death. By the time this is over they will try to make you feel like YOU should apologize to Fripp for "bothering" HIM. Some will excuse his behavior by saying, "he's an artist," or point to the fact that you "the Obnoxious American" violated Fripp's "British Sensibilities." Many will fault you for having "the nerve" to actually want to communicate with someone who has touched your life through their art. I doubt many will come to your defense. Randy continues: >In less than thirty seconds he managed to ruin for me all appreciation for >his music. Before a KC show this past June I was scolded by Tony Levin for taking his picture through an open window. It was one brief moment in Levin's life and I'm sure he has never thought about it again. However, it is a moment in my life I will not soon forget. Two nights later I watched Fripp recoil in horror as a friend tried to shake his hand. Adrian stepped in and saved the day by extending his hand and saying, "He doesn't like to shake hands, but I'll show you what it feels like." Legend has it that Mr. Fripp likes to "wind down" after his intense concerts. Fripp meets and greets people on his terms, not yours. Don't ever forget that. If he was in any other profession his "customer relations" skills would be his inevitable downfall. However, he is an "artist" - so eccentric and rude behavior is often condoned. I won't defend your personal attacks on Fripp, you know, the "god" stuff, and the "pudgy hands" and "Robert Dripp" etc. Your feelings have been hurt and you want to hurt his in return. Why belittle yourself?? Then Randall goes off on us by writing: >Apparently, there are a number of naive fools who will buy anything this >shameless fraud will foist upon them. Count me as one of those fools, I respect and admire Fripp (and Levin). I don't have to like the person to love their art. By the way, the picture I took of Levin turned out blurry and my friends still kid me for pissing him off. We laugh about it now, I hope someday Randall Powell will put his experience into perspective as well. Brian K. Momchilov http://fly.hiwaay.net/~bkm/akhome.htm Subvert the dominant paradigm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:04:59 -0800 From: "William M. Heinrichs" Subject: Belew - Zappa Hello, I came across this post in alt.fan.zappa and thought I should share it with this group. Any insight into this bit of "history"? -Bill "Peter de B. Harrington" writes: |> scottst dot itg dot bicc dot ohsu at ohsu dot edu wrote: |> >"Peter de B. Harrington" writes: |> > |> > |> >>Now, what GZ needs to do, is say to hell with JLP, Al Dimeola, and |> >>Adrian Belew, and release some of the shows with them on it. |> > |> >I can't imagine Adrian being adverse to Gail issuing the product with him on |> >it-is it really true that he is blocking Gail from releasing tapes with his |> >performances on them? - S. |> > |> >scottst at ohsu dot edu |> |> No AB would not block the release. It was a FZ decision. |> |> The story goes something like this. During the European tour of the |> 77-78 band, Brian Eno attended the Berlin show, and was impressed with |> Adrian Belew's guitar playing. He told David Bowie, that he found this |> guitarist that could play alot of Eno's studio effects live. David Bowie |> offers to double Adrian Belew's salary, if I remember correctly the |> figure was embarassing low for a musician on tour. It was either $6000 |> or $3000 for the entire tour. He left, and I think Zappa was miffed, |> after all he discovered Adrian playing crud in Nashville. |> |> Anyway, the theory is that if FZ did not like you, was mad at you, or |> had a grudge against you, he would not promote your career by releasing |> music that features your solos on it. Belew has always spoken kindly of FZ. |> |> This explains why no Adrian Belew guitar solos have ever been |> released, especially with the YCDTOSA series, e.g., the |> Jimi Hendrix tribute. He pretty much worked out his feedback |> technique while touring with FZ. |> |> Pete |> [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 13:20:40 EST From: John Saylor Subject: Re: Fripp & Bowie >From: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is (Orn Orrason) >Subject: Fripp & Bowie > >I just read an interview with Bowie today where he said that he considered >Fripp at one stage for his most recent album Outside. > >He added that Frpp is "wonderful" but the convenience of working with >Mr. Reeves made the decision. > >I was disappointed when I read this as I feel that Bowie is giving up his >ultimate artist goal for the sake of convenience. I am not going to buy >this album. As an artist myself, albeit not one with the recognition or financial resources of David Bowie [http://www.davidbowie.com], I can sympathize with his need to get things done. If every artist waited for the perfect working situation [whatever that is], there would be little output. Also, Reeves is a fine guitarist in his own right. Although some people and artists like to think of themselves as living outside of the normal world [again, whatever that is], they still breathe the same air, and feel the same thunderstorms, and watch the same sunsets, and sit in the same traffic jams that "ordinary" people do. So while it is good for artists [and people] to consider what would happen in a perfect world, I think it is better for their work if they deal with the world at hand, and try to make the best of it. I have heard 1.outside [Bowie's new album], and I like it. I think it is some of the best work Bowie has done in years. On second thought, it's the only work of Bowie's that I've heard in years, so scratch that last comparison. You might still hate it, but I think you're selling yourself short if you aviod it simply because Fripp's not on it. After all- he probably wouldn't have been ablt to do the KC tours if he was working with Bowie [then again, that's little consolation to you in Iceland]. \jsaylor [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 18:24:58 GMT From: Toby Howard Subject: Trey Gunn's road diary Excepted from http://www.rockslide.com/crimson/trey/diary.html: > When we were in ...... Dallas???...... during the bows at the end of the > show some idiot threw his CD and it hit Robert right in the head. Though > it obviously wasn't a malicious act, the stupidity was unbelievable. Not > only will this loser's CD never be heard by any of us, HE'LL NEVER > WORK IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS AGAIN. Check out Trey's Road Diary: it's interesting! Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:27:10 -0600 From: gdstrip at edge dot net (George and Dianne Stripling) Subject: re: sythesizers In ET #236, Gordon Emory Anderson wrote: >a synthesizer player is not able to dynamically and instaneously control >the overtones ... This is wrong. Try Robert Fripp's Sounscapes (1999 preferably :-) Using MIDI, a language for communicating with synthesizers, continuous controller messages available for dynamic control include: pitchbend for vibrato, which usually has it's own paddle controller on electronic keyboards volume for tremelo, filter frequency cuttoff and resonance for timbre control, pan for stereo imaging, in addition to numerous abilities specific to each device. each of these parameters can be set initially as you have noted but may also be controlled in realtime using assignable controller devices such as a typical paddle controller, assignable fader box, expression pedal, breath controller, or an aftertouch capable keyboard. The only limit is the # of limbs/ fingers you can make use of at one time. Using control voltages for analog devices much of this can be acheived as well. There are many custom languages/ methods in addition to these. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:27:02 -0600 From: gdstrip at edge dot net (George and Dianne Stripling) Subject: Re: ET Hello again Toby and ET subscribers >(ET) seems to have somehow developed its own tone all by itself. And >that's good, I think.-- Toby Agreed, I think King Crimson fans are generally a unique minded, very thoughtful and well mannered people. :-) I attended the Nov. 12th concert at The Roxy in Atlanta, USA and was impressed not only by KC's mind blowing performance, but the behavior of the crowd as well. Everyone was courteous and quiet during the performances, except for a few drunkards of course - maybe KC will bann the alcohol as next tour as well?! The venue was aranged thoughtfully. I imagine everyone could see the band perfectly. I, along with many others, was able to walk up to the stage for an upclose view of all their toys prior to the event, what a treat. No big ugly security people, no security rails between me and the stage, no tobacco smoke in my face and hair and clothes etc... and everyone was polite. Here's to all the KC fans out there!!! However (the obligitory negative comments) - the damn T-shirts were outrageously priced, as I expected. They must make at least $15 profit per shirt ($23 each). I paid $65 for two tix, another $40 for the 225 mile drive and back, and of course lost a day's pay all the while. I don't even make that much in a day, anyway. C'mon KC, how about cuttin me some slack? I apologize to my fellow ETer's for my segue about women and porn in ET #235. I was babbling, it was way to late. I guess the idea of a KC song in a porn flick just really pisses me off. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> George Stripling Jr. gdstrip at edge dot net http://edge.edge.net/~gdstrip/ <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:36:21 -0700 From: Paul Martz Subject: What hit Fripp? > So from these accounts we've got a small frisbee-like, red and white coca > cola can colored, halloween mask-like, crushed plastic cup-like, more than > paper/perhaps a cassette tape-like, program/plastic water bottle-like > object. Can anyone settle this and provide the definitive definition of > what did in fact hit Mr Fripp on Halloween night in Fort Worth, Texas? Obviously, it was a UFO. -paul martz at shaft dot fc dot hp dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:43:51 -0500 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: re: Fripp & Bowie Fri, 10 Nov 1995 17:08:17 +0000 (GMT), ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is (Orn Orrason) writes: >I just read an interview with Bowie today where he said that he considered >Fripp at one stage for his most recent album Outside. >I was disappointed when I read this as I feel that Bowie is giving up his >ultimate artist goal for the sake of convenience. I am not going to buy >this album. Ooooooooooooooooh! You know not what you are missing grasshopper! bink... David Beardsley dmb5561719 at aol dot com ************************ IMMP music recordings: ************************ send email for a catalog of this ************************ strange beautiful music. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 16:00:46 GMT (Original EST) From: "John Quinn" Subject: re: ET's tone Alas, it seems that Mr. George Stripling, having discovered ET and receiving a mild rebuke for the hostile tone of his post [thank you, Mr. Moderator], is determined to have it *his* way. Sir, you are visiting Rome; please do as the Romans. It may take several strolls around the town (or several issues of this digest) to become acquainted with its customs and mores. That's fine, take your time, there's no rush. I believe you will better enjoy ET when you've had a chance to discover what it is, and will more fully understand the assorted posts once you've developed a better sense of their contexts (e.g., no one is promoting pornography here). Meanwhile, consider browsing the ET archives to become more familiar with its content and style. In any case, from one who's learned, you may find it more comfortable and enlightening to sit on that soapbox than to keep standing on it. - Jake [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Jeremy Lakatos Subject: Belew's Lyrics Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 19:44:11 -0500 (EST) I occasionally see people criticize Adrian's lyrics. This is quite strange to me, as I see him as one of the better (hell, best, the market is so bad) lyricists out there. He is able to come up with the best metaphors. From Thrak, we have "fossilized photos," "paint the trees with emptiness" (a moving line, and a good description of what happens when the leaves are colored not there), "sweet is the voice ... that speaks sotto voce," not to mention the clever silliness in SSEDD and people. Though less serious, Neal and Jack and Me and Neurotica are just so vital, and Elephant Talk and Indiscipline are loads of fun. Sure, he's not Fish, but then who is (besides Fish)? -- If you can tolerate amateur poetry enough to do a SUCK/NOT SUCK poll, PLEASE check out http://grove.ufl.edu/~jeremy. (jeremy at grove dot ufl dot edu) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 20:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: WHAT HIT FRIPP IN THE HEAD We have it! Final confirmation as to what hit Robert Fripp in the head! No more guessing, no more speculation, no more sleepless nights worrying about the Crimson King's health, no more! The truth has arrived! Its light will shine on all of us! And the truth is: It was a CD. I found this info in the Trey Gunn Road Diary on the other Crimson net page that isn't ET. Sorry, forgot to write down the address. I've got an important question. This might not be the right, forum, but hey, here goes: Are there any opinions out there as to what sort of substances one might want to ingest before attending a Crimson show? I've been wondering if I should or not, and other people's opinions might help. Thanks. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Fripp verses the Vampires. Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:02:12 PST From: Ed Korczynski Regarding Randall Powell's long whining flame in the last elephant talk... (I'm sure there'll be other replies ;-)) Dear Randall, Is it possible that you've been a fan for quote 20 years unquote and you haven't heard Fripp's opinion of the potentially vampiric relationship between audience and performer? The mid-70 band was disbanded for this reason. He never signs autographs at a show or talks to anyone in the traditional sense. He communicates with his music on stage. At the risk of making an assumption and too quick diagnosis, you need to go get some therapy. Seriously. If you previously loved him (perhaps an unhealthy projection), and now deeply hate him (another immature state) because he didn't say nice things to you, then you really need to work out your emotional dependencies and perhaps your sense of self contentment. Meanwhile, save your foul spewings for your therapist and try to maintain a sense of mature, concise, constraint in a semi-public forum such as this. As a personal experience, on the last Fripp solo-tour in California, we sat down at a table at the back of the club and looking around notice Robert Fripp sitting two tables away from us in the very back corner. He was sitting moderately upright in a chair, not moving, with his eyes open. He looked poised yet relaxed. As people who have also spent many years in meditation practice, it was obvious to us that he was engaged in some sort of centering/focussing/meditation. Mostly as a joke, to see how stable he was, I turned to look at him, smiled and waved. He didn't move, as I expected, and we respectfully left him in peace. Twenty minutes later, he was sitting in the same state with a guitar on his lap on stage and the show began. Do not criticise that which you do not understand. Repeat as necessary, -edo -- ***************************************************************************** "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." "Fruit flies like a banana." -Noam Chomsky -Groucho Mark **************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 20:38:05 -0500 From: James MacKenzie Crawford Subject: Re: Fripp & Bowie Orn Orrason wrote, > Bowie made good records ... but has always had medicore guitar players > (Carlos Alomar) excepet of course on the Let's dance album. Well, I beg to differ. I very much so like Mick Ronson, Adrian Belew, Tim Renwick, John Lennon, Robert Fripp, Pete Townshend, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Peter Frampton (well, technically a good guitarist!), and Lenny Kravitz, all of whom have played guitar for Bowie. I do hate Nile Rodgers and Carlos Alomar (one of his most used guitarists), but you have to admit, he does attract good guitar talent on occassion. James Crawford. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 13 Nov 1995 18:59:42 U From: "Scott Underwood" Subject: Re- Fripp-Off How amusing. At first I thought I would ask Randall Powell to reconsider his attitude, to see in Robert Fripp a human who has decided that after nearly thirty years in the business he just doesn't like being approached by strangers who are certain that a few words with him will lead to some sort of meaningful exchange, but yet is no different a musician than thirty seconds before "he managed to ruin for me all appreciation for his music." But then I realized I might as well try to tell the most rabid fans on this list that Fripp is not God incarnate, that seeking out his every recorded moment (whether he wants you to or not), that cataloging minute differences in various versions of the same piece, that spending all this time and money on one performer when there is so much more great music out in the world strikes me as obsessive behavior worthy of examination. Neither action is likely to have the desired affect. -Scott Underwood [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 22:13:35 -0600 (CST) From: Le Monsieur Damon Subject: Bowie & Fripp Orn Orrason mentioned something about Bowie's not using Fripp because the other guy was more convenient. (Mick Ronson?) First of all, Bowie certainly didn't want to wait until winter '96 or later to record his album, and I'm sure the record label was relieved as well. After all, Orn, Fripp is not the *only* competent guitarist that Bowie knows. Furthermore, the world, at least Bowie's world, does not revolve around Fripp, and neither should anyone's. He's a human being who just happens to be a very talented musician. He also happens to be very, very weird. :) I personally think that the guitarist on Outside did a fine job, though. Secondly, Bowie was on RockLine recently, and one question was about working with Fripp. Bowie said that he is most certainly considering Fripp for part of the Hyper-Cycle (Outside plus the next 3 or 4 albums, all put together for one gigantic quadruple/quintuple concept album), though there is most certainly the question of Fripp's availability. Damon Capehart | UTD Student Govt. Assoc., Communications Committee; dcapehar at utdallas dot edu | Society of Physics Students P.S.: My vantage point at the Fort Worth concert was 7th row center, right aisle seat, and I *still* think it was a crushed plastic cup. :) Also, the object came from about the 5th or 4th row in left center. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk (Brian Ritchie) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:35:51 +0000 Subject: Re: David Sylvian / Holger Czukay ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb) asked about the Sylvian/Czukay albums... There are two (that is, if you don't count the fact that Czukay is fairly omnipresent on Brilliant Trees, Sylvian's first solo): Plight+Premonition and Flux+Mutability. Both of these are "experimental"; each contains two pieces of about 16 minutes (yes, they're very short albums), that just meander aimlessly. No tunes or themes, and not much in the way of development. Imagine some of the wierder pieces on Rain Tree Crow taken to extreme lengths. They couldn't be further from Japan, and even further from The First Day! In fact, they're quite unlike Sylvian's other work (well, kinda... there's also the album that originally included Words With The Shaman, whose title escapes me but it might have been Alchemy; but even that's got more movement than these albums.) That said, I do listen to them from time to time. My personal preference is for Flux+Mutability, the second part of which (if I recall correctly) heavily features Sylvian's quasi-Soundscapes guitar drones (the kind of sound he makes a lot on the quiet half of Gone To Earth - though some of that was Bill Nelson, not Sylvian). I've not heard Ember Glance, which was a very expensive (and again, very short!) CD and artwork package (art by Russell Mills, naturally), but I somehow suspect it's in the same camp. Brian ---- Dr. Brian Ritchie, Systems Engineering Division, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, DIDCOT, Oxon, UK WWW URL: http://www.cis.rl.ac.uk/people/br/contact.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] TIX [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 01:28:50 -0500 Subject: NYC Tix for sale 11/21 From: aaronson I have two seats for sale for Tuesday night's show at the Longacre. Seats K111 & K112. I believe that works out to 11th row. If you are interested I am asking for the $50 ticket price. Call me according to the following schedule: M-F 8AM-4PM: 908-298-7096 Others: 201-722-0703 Or email me at (aaronson at bc dot cybernex dot net) or (adam dot aronson at spcorp dot com) Adam Aronson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]