From elephant-talk at arastar dot comThu Oct 12 20:10:13 1995 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:39:45 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #229 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 229, Thursday, 12 October 1995 Today's Topics: Jamie Muir Earthbound on CD? various What's a good Fripp album? Re: Elephant Talk #228 Mel Collins in Minsk Elephant Talk #225 older Crimson songs live Unnatural silences on DGM releases Trey's playing Some more comments on taping... Fripp & Eno Re: Brockum THRAK "metal box" a rip-off David Sylvian, RFH London, 4 Nov 1995 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 KC in US II practical applications of Fripp/K.C. music Re: metal box rip-off Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 KC light shows past and present jars of clay Daryl Hall Mark Perry is God, Bruford/Abe, Toyah/Fripp Still Nov 1 Austin show is general admission! Pat Mastelotto / XTC / Mr. Mister Re: ET #228 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 John Wetton - UK Project re: Pat Mastelotto / XTC / Mr. Mister Fripp's recent liner notes LTiA Part II fadeout + Young Persons query Jamie Muir Pat's drumming/Fripp & expresso/Atlanta party? MC Ice-Crim Drive to 1984 (1981?) RE: Favourite Solo Fripp's philosophy Crimso music in French erotic movie! GIGS KC Gig Review - Tokyo TICKET FUN Tickets for 11/29, Rosemont Theatre... NYC shows @ Longacre 11/20-11/25 (no 11/23) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW Home: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html Topic Index: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/index/topics/etopics.htm FAQ: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/elephant-talk-faq.html FTP The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Tatina_S at mediasoft dot net (Scott Tatina) Subject: Jamie Muir Date: Fri, 6 Oct 95 13:59:32 +0000 (GMT) This is in regards to the many questions concerning Jamie Muir. Prior to Crimson he played win Sunship with Alan Gowen and Allan Holdsworth. No recordings were made. He also played in Evan Parker's Music Improvisation Company and was on two recordings-one on ECM and the other on Incus. He has been out of the monestary for at least 15 years. After leaving the monestary he did a duet album with Derek Bailey called Dart Drug. Currently he is a visual artist, though I'm not sure where. Thanks go to Steve Feigenbaum at Wayside Music in Silver Spring, Maryland for refreshing my memory and providing other info on Jamie. By the way Steve is the owner of a fantastic music distribution house, plus puts out recordings on his Cuneiform label (Doctor Nerve, Curlew, Birdsongs of the Mesozoic and more). If you are into all kinds of creative, progressive or avant-garde musics Wayside is in my opinion the best source. To get a catalog you can send your address (not e-mail but your home address) to cuneiway at aol dot com Art is not a mirror-it is a hammer. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:56:34 -0600 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Earthbound on CD? Hi folks! After all the debate over whether or not USA is or is not--or should not--be available on CD, I have noticed no mention of Earthbound. Is this also not available? I know that I've never seen it. Just wondering... Cheers, Chris Van Valen Don't fight it, it's over yor head. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 95 14:10:04 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: various >I think the result of those sessions are on "The Essential Fripp and Eno," >in Healthy Colours I-IV Actually, Healthy Colours is what Fripp and Eno recorded back in the late '70's and was never released. I recently Emailed DGM in England to try and find out what happened with their last collaberation. I was told that it wound up on Eno's CD-ROM Headcandy. Does anyone know if there's anything on it that is playable on a conventional cd player? 2. A few issues ago, someone wrote that Fripp was talking about a new release with Toyah. To me, the word "with" implies that this is a collaberation. Does this person know? 3. To anyone who wants to know where to buy Camilla's Little Secret, HMV in Toronto has a copy on order for me. They have a locating service. Their phone number is 1-800-567-8468. I live in Phila. and have no connection with them, other than I occassionally order hard to find cd's from them. 4. Yes, I'm another person who just doesn't like the California Guitar Trio. Too much of their material, to me, seems to have a forced and self conscious energy and cleverness to them (that Schizoid Man break they did during the last Crimson tour I thought was annoyingly "cute"). Los Gauchos Allermands, on the other hand, I loved and intend to buy their cd next time I order from DGM (which should be around the time the next soundscapes are released). Oh well... Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000371 sends (ALAN COHEN)... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 14:45:28 -0500 (EST) From: FISHBOY Subject: What's a good Fripp album? Hello, Can anyone out there give an opinion on what is a good introduction to Fripp's work outside King Crimson? I have all the Crimson (studio, at least) albums, and I think I want to check out a Fripp album. The only things I've heard are No Pussyfooting, which I liked, and Let the Power Fall, which I couldn't stand. :) Is The Essential Fripp and Eno a good place to start? It looks like it has all of No Pussyfooting plus some other stuff. The bits of soundscapes I've heard on Thrak and B'Boom sound interesting, so I'll probably get one of those CDs at some point. Any pointers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Andy Acunzo aacunzo at ccmail dot sunysb dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 05:23:31 +0930 (CST) From: stephen white Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #228 > From: Jeremy Lakatos > I love all of LTIA save "The Talking Drum." I don't like the improvs on > SABB so I didn't get it. I like all of Red but Providence. > > I like most of Discipline and Beat, wasn't very impressed with most of > ToaPP so didn't get it. This really shows that King Crimson is a band for all people, since Talking Drum is one of my favourite KC tunes. If I could only listen to one KC tune for the rest of my life, I would pick Industry from ToaPP. Nuages is great too. I don't like Beat very much, except Satori in Tangier, and think it is a rather poppy CD. I'm off to listen to Industry again. That song still sends shivers up my arms after years of listening to it. I must have listened to it over a thousand times and I still can't get enough. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: JOHNSONP Subject: Mel Collins in Minsk I just spent 6 weeks in Belarus (former U.S.S.R republic) mostly in the country about 2 hours north of Minsk. We usually managed to get to Minsk most weekends except for the one when there was a concert with Alvin Lee, Mel Collins and a drummer?? from Dire Straits playing with Russian singer/songwriter Valeria(sp?). It was billed as The (not sure Olga??) Symphony. I think Valeria (her name was written in Cyrillic) was the feature and Alvin Lee was billed next followed by the others with who they had played with after their names, ie Mel Collins (King Crimson, Pink Floyd). Sorry about the spotty info but I saw the poster in the Metro and I am positive about the info that I remember and could read (I don't speak Russian or Byelorussian). I know the show was September 23 (maybe 22 or 24). Also, David Sylvian tickets just went on sale for November here in Washington D.C. Does anyone know the name of the artist (female) with whom Adrian Belew recently collaborated? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 06 Oct 95 16:24:05 EDT From: Philip Curme <100535 dot 433 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Response (Of Sorts) to Gideon From Yale. (1) The Eric Tamm book "From King Crimson To Guitar Craft" is worth a read. It is however long on complicated explanations of alternative guitar tuning and short on "Rock & Roll" anecdotes. Retails at L9.99 in the UK. Good chronology of Crimso (including ENO collaborations). (2) Jaimie Muir - Did not show when I saw KC at the Sheffield City Hall,Yorkshire,England on 17th March 1973 When questioned by a member of the audience Fripp replied rather enigmatically (in his whimsical Dorset accent) "He's gone back to his garden". Great gig with LTIA featuring heavily followed by Schizoid Man as an encore. Support was Claire Hamill. (3) XTC Superb west country new wave band renowned for short "poppy" tunes.Don't know about Pat Mastoletto but "English Settlement" was their best LP. Avoid The Electric Light Orchestra - Bland apart from one or two hit singles such as "Rock Aria" and "Mr Blue Sky". (4) I agree that there are similarities between Zappa & Fripp. Conceptual Continuity does feature along with a propensity to work with a diverse range of fellow musicians.The main difference between them is that Zappa's lyrics are extremely funny whereas KC's are not - apart from Sinfield's hippy meanderings (Oops - no offence!) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:18:35 -0600 From: cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu (James Hines) Subject: older Crimson songs live Boy would I love to see some pre- LTIA stuff played on this tour!! For me, it's kinda disappointing that KC only play LTIA pt. 2, The Talking Drum and Red from the pre-'81 material. From what I've read, they will insert some different material from Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair. Neurotica and Three.. sound great! But for the "old" stuff, I think this KC could easily do great versions of Sailor's Tale and Bolero. We also know that Adrian can sing (rather excellently, I must say) Cadence and Cascade. I would also like to see songs like LTIA pt.1, The Night Watch, and esp. Fracture; they could do some real damage on that one! But, I guess the pattern of KC is to play very few songs from the last (or older) era. Example: the only pre-LTIA song KC played in '73-'74 was Schizoid Man (for the encore), and that was only for about the first third of the touring. From what I know, only LTIA pt. 2 and Red were played during the 80's. I think the addition of Talking Drum on the recent tour was excellent. The version of it on B'boom is so excellent! Trey's playing is definately "beautiful." I know we'd all *love* to see other older material, but I don't think it'll happen. We can only wish...Hey, how about Groon? ; ) THRAK ya'll, James "THE MAN" Hines cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:29:39 -0400 From: ali00mhs at unccvm dot uncc dot edu (Mark Sullivan) Subject: Unnatural silences on DGM releases I remember some discussion of strange track length behavior on DGM releases. How does everyone feel about some of the long silences? On 1999, four of the five tracks (all but "Interlude") fade in so slowly that there's effectively about one and a half minutes of silence at the beginning of each one. I think they are fade-ins, because there are no visible bands of silence that were inserted. I imagine these faithfully duplicate the concert performance, but as a home listening experience I find them really annoying; I've gotten in the habit of riding my CD player's fast forward button whenever I play the disc (which is often, because I like the music a lot). The bonus tracks on the live League of Crafty Guitarists CD are an even more extreme example. It's nice to have them, but it would be even nicer if they were credited on the sleeve and accessible without having to either wait through four minutes or so of silence or fast forward until you hear a sound. As a result, I often skip them, simply stopping the CD when the applause starts after "Wabash Cannonball." Mark Sullivan Charlotte, NC [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:55:15 -0600 From: cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu (James Hines) Subject: Trey's playing I know many of you Crimheads are still wondering "Where's Trey in the mix?" It took me a while to be able to decipher his contributions. My main suggestion for help is to get 1000 Years and/ or RFSQ Live in Japan (the video). Trey's approach to The Stick is very different than that of Tony's. Listen to the Stick Improv on B'boom for a good example. Trey was originally a guitarist before he picked up The Stick. When listening for Trey, listen for a third guitar, not a "second bass", because he treats The Stick like a guitar. (The Stick can replace the guitar as well as the bass) Adrian's playing is probobly the easiest of the three (Fripp, Belew, Gunn) to pickout. A lot of times, Trey is playing something very similar to Robert, e.g. he also uses soundscapes and "strange guitar sounds" like Robert. Remember, Trey was a student of Robert, as was the CGT. As far as I can tell, on B'boom Trey is always in the left speaker, Fripp in the right. On The Talking Drum, Trey is the one making the "violin" type sound throughout the song (and doesn't he sound so damn great!?). Just keep listening (headphones help) to VROOOM, THRAK, and B'boom; eventually you'll be able to pick out his parts. A note on The Stick: Each week, the local paper, The Austin (un)American Statesman has an entertainment suppliment called "XL". In each issue of XL, there is a section called "the bottom line", which has 6 "good" things of the week ("in the black") and 6 "bad" things ("in the red"). Last week's (Sept 28) issue had as one of the bottom six: " #4 'The Stick.' This new basslike instrument looks like something a band in the Flintstones would play." Do you think that Michael Corcoran (the writer) is implying that King Crimson are "Dinosaurs"? It's always funny when people flaunt their ignorance (like that "pond scum" comment on the web page). Keep on THRAKking! James "THE MAN" Hines cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 95 19:10:02 EDT From: david at visix dot com (David Charlap) Subject: Some more comments on taping... sanderso at gac dot edu (Scott T. Anderson) writes: > >In response to Chris's question, it's not a matter of live performance >being something sacred nearly so much as it is simply Fripp's legal and >moral right to protect his art and to be the sole proprietor of it. Yes. But Fripp doesn't use that argument. If he would just say "It's mine and you can't have it", I'd respect his opinion, even though I wouldn't agree. But he doesn't say that. "David Lynch" writes: >> >>2. Do you think it is permissible to make a profit off live >>recordings of other artists which the artists make no profit from? >I was referring here to the bootleggers, i.e. the people at all those >Italian companies, etc. Apparently my phrasing wasn't quite clear. Except for one thing: in most cases, those Italian companies aren't ripping the artists off. Until recently, Italian law allowed distribution of unauthorized concerts as long as the artists got a share of the profits. Many of those CD's include a note to the effect of "we're depositing a percentage of our profits in a bank account that the band can get at if they want their cut." This may change, though. I heard a rumor that Italy is now joining the rest of the world in outlawing the material altogether. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 21:22:05 -0500 From: jdehm at gold dot interlog dot com (JD Murray) Subject: Fripp & Eno In ET #226, E. Dixon wrote: >I think the result of those sessions are on "The Essential Fripp and Eno," >in Healthy Colours I-IV -- there's a very repetitive bass track that's >probably Eno's Fender bass. I had heard that the Healthy Colours tracks were done circa 1980 for what was to be a third Fripp and Eno collaboration. Needless to say that it was never released. On The Essential Fripp & Eno CD the copyright for Healthy Colours is 1994, so maybe it is newly recorded except the vocal tracks are reminescent of My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts which was also done around 1979-80. Can anyone shed a more *official* light on this? Regards, JD -- >><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Poe ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 10:36:26 -0230 (NDT) From: Elizabeth Noseworthy Subject: Re: Brockum THRAK "metal box" a rip-off Further to David Maclennan's note concerning the US$59 charge for the metal box ... I attended the marvellous Montreal performance in May. It was the culmination of a ( n almost ) life-long desire to see KC, RF, and BB. Since ITCotCK and Yes's Time and A Word about 25 years ago, I have yearned for the opportunity. It was not a disappointment However, hoping to commemorate the occasion (not with a tape recorder ), I wandered into the lobby for a gee at the tees. Expensive ! The only one I could afford ( after paying for air fare from Nfld to Montreal ! ) was the black THRAK. Hold it up to the light and you can see through the bloody thing ! If RF / KC is so concerned about what goes on to the market with his / their name attached to it, he / they should have a few words with Brockum. Shocking. Mack Furlong [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 14:50:05 +0100 From: psmart at bcs dot org dot uk (Peter Smart) Subject: David Sylvian, RFH London, 4 Nov 1995 I haven't seen reference to David Sylvian being on tour but found out today that he would be at Royal Festival Hall, London, UK on Saturday 4 November 1995. Tickets apear to be selling well (no tip price tickets left) The concert is billed as a solo performance of slow fire - a personal retrospective. I hope this is of interest to some of you. Pete. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "John Q. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 > From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) > John Wetton will play a free benefit concert on Friday the 13th At SUNY > Canton, NY. I saw Wetton play at the Birchmere in Alexandria, VA on 10-5. In addition to Asia (yuk) tunes and new stuff, he played ~4 King Crimson tunes, incl "Easy Money" and "Starless". And, yes: most songs were just JW singing + playing an amplified acoustic guitar. A couple songs were sung over taped synth. - john [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:56:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kurt F. Colville" Subject: KC in US II Does anyone know who will be opening for KC on their second leg in the US? The CGT, I hope. Kurt Colville [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 18:00:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Dixie Gene Ross Subject: practical applications of Fripp/K.C. music Greetings Crimsos and curious browers, I would like to share with you one of the many practical applictions I have found for Fripp/K.C. music. Have you ever had a stupid pop song or silly TV jingle on your mind and could not get it out? These tunes seem to be crafted with a sort of sonic Velcrow that clings to your mind's ear. Most irritating. No need to worry with bothersome nano technology to dismantle these little beasts, or even a stereo as far as that goes. When this happens to me I simply, in my mind's voice, ring in "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part Two" to my mind's ear. In seconds stupid pop song or silly TV jingle is gone not to return and I can leave my mind's ear open for other possibilites. Aaauuuhhh. Much better. I have been doing this for years now and it has worked every time. There is more to this than meets the ear. Dick Ross [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:48:59 -0800 From: gank at wavenet dot com Subject: Re: metal box rip-off >I've received from Brockum my "metal box" version of THRAK. Unlike Paolo >Valladolid, I had no problem with the gold CD coming adrift inside the box >and getting scratched. As far as I can see the only thing that could have >scratched it was the VROOOM button, but Brockum had thoughtfully packaged >this separately. > >However, I'd have to say that at US$59.99 the metal box is a rip-off. I totally agree with David McClennan about this box being a rip. I was at the Crimson show in LA, where they had the box, but didn't have any open (it was sealed with a piece of tape). I decided, what the hell, I'll splurge _once again_ for this band (I had a chance at the $15 program, but opted to drop $60). It was only after I got home that I discovered a dent in the side that sounds suspiciously like the one David described in his post. Not to mention the same cheesy merchandise inside. And the fact that it won't stay closed. So let this be a warning: this box contains nothing signifigant to you. The program is nice. Buy it for $15, which is still too much for a program. But save the rest of your money for a shirt, which I couldn't afford after the box! Matthew MJM gank at wavenet dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 08 Oct 95 10:03:07 EDT From: michael jeter Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 It is a bummer that KC, as of right now, is not playing NYC. I certainly hope that this changes. I am resiugned to believe that the universe will provide what we need if it is what we need. KC will play in NYC if it is necessary. If they do not [play, it is not, was not, neccessary. To the NYU student, Aaron: I have managed to lose your number. Please call ag ain. On a totally non-KC related subject: On Sat. Sept *8, NPR's Jazz From Lincoln Center did an entire hour about Charles Mingus. I do not wish to offend any se nsibilities with this, but, if I may: JESUS! Mingus was one of the baddest musicians to have ever walked the face of the earth. Thank You, Michaelk Jeter, Brooklyn 718-372-85 56 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 13:58:48 -0600 (CST) From: HILL_T at DT3 dot DT dot UH dot EDU Subject: KC light shows past and present I'm curious to know what kind of light shows Crimson had back when Peter Sinfield operated them. If anyone knows, e-mail or post a description. Past reviews said they were very impressive, and the new tour lights have been said to be either nice or distracting. Thanx! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 15:18:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Keeley Subject: jars of clay I was paging through RELEASE magazine the other day, a magazine devoted to Contemporary Christian music, and found an ad for the self titled debut album by the group JARS OF CLAY. There at the bottom of the ad reads "Produced by Adrian Belew and Jars of Clay." I asked at one of my local Christian record shops if this was the Adrian Belew we all know and love and, apparently it is! I've been reading ET for about a year now (great job, Toby!) and have never seen it mentioned before. Is anyone aware of Belew's involvement with this group or what this album sounds like? Bob Keeley [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:18:52 -0400 From: SoulAlone at aol dot com Subject: Daryl Hall Hello. I have produced the international fan newsletter for Hall & Oates since 1987. Can you answer a question that's been plaguing me for years???? Is there such a thing as a recording of "Exposure" on which Daryl Hall sings all the vocals? I've heard the rumors for SO long, and I'm not sure if it even exists. Thanks! Lori Allred [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:43:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Mark Perry is God, Bruford/Abe, Toyah/Fripp Thank the Lord for Mark Perry and Possible Productions. I expect my shipment in four to six weeks and it comes in one and a half!! I was astounded. Plus it all cost probably three-quarters the amount that it would have been through music stores. Question: the liner-notes to several Fripp-related albums say that Discipline will be releasing three volumes of Soundscapes this year. The cover of A Blessing of Tears shows it to be the second volume of this series. Why has the second volume come out first? Was 1999 the first volume? I don't really know why I shelled out for Prometheus (the Pat Mastoletto/Steve Ball/Sanford Ponder/etc. album). It strikes me as being typical heavy metal -- boring drum beats, simple tonal uninteresting guitar solos, and so on. I was expecting more from people that have so much musical background and skill. (Maybe I'm being a bit too critical -- I would much rather listen to this than to Metallica.) At times you can hear the influence of LoCG/Guitar Craft technique in Steve Ball's guitar lines -- the constantly moving eighth/sixteenth notes that are simultaneously melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic. And some of the rhythms that Mastoletto establishes are interesting. The final track of the album is a 23 minute ambient journey (reminiscent of Soundscapes) that contrasts strangely with the rest of the album. A friend wrote to me of B'Boom: "This displays a band that was far _under_ the condition we saw them in (June, L.A.). Rough, but always interesting." I would have to agree. Most of the new music was really unorganized at the time -- "B'Boom" and "VROOM VROOM" are examples of this. It does have that great rough unproduced sound of VROOM (the album). And a lot of the older tunes are changed interestingly by the new double trio format. Kudos to Fripp for getting such great sound quality on a live recording. This and Phish's A Live One stand as great examples of releases of live music. Is anyone but me disappointed with the Great Deceiver box set? For one, all of the Lark's Tongues songs seem somehow empty without Jamie Muir. What is the Talking Drum without the chaos of Muir's opening conga solo? I missed the little *doing*, *doing doing* by Muir (I forgot the name of the instrument) after Wetton's sustain of the title lyrics. Why doesn't Fripp include any live stuff from the Lark's Tongues period or the Red period? Another problem is that the songs start to blend together, until you get a bit sick of them. Except for the fabulous improvisations for which this set is well worth the money. A while ago I found an album on which Bruford had participated. It's the "New Percussion Group of Amsterdam," _Go Between_, featuring Bruford and Keiko Abe (marimba). Bruford plays acoustic drums and percussion on the beautiful title track. Beside Bruford's contribution, this album is really interesting and has some great liner notes. I didn't see it listed in the ET Archives, so I guess I'll post the information for it here. TRACKS: Go Between Redbone Marimba Spiritual (Minoru Miki) Maenaden On Editions EG (EGEDC54), 1987. Anyone know how _Lady or the Tiger?_ came about? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 19:30:30 GMT From: mike at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Still tonyola previously wrote... > Speaking of bad music, Peter Sinfield's 1973 solo album 'Still' proved > to be a clunker. The music itself is very well played - after all, he > had top session help, including Phil Jump and a raft of Crimson alumni, > but Sinfield has a weak, breathy, and effeminate voice with a poor > sense of pitch and an effective range of perhaps one octave. You aren't wrong about anything you've said, but you missed out the bit about the hopelessly pretentious lyrics which are so bad it really distracts from anything decent in the music. (Which is rare enough) Anyone who writes 'I need to suck the breasts of time and freeze its milk in ink' has something of a problem. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Dickson [Team OS/2], Black Cat Software Factory, Musselburgh, Scotland mike at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk - Fax 0131-653-6124 - Columnated Ruins Domino [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 20:49:06 -0500 From: Walter Daniel Subject: Nov 1 Austin show is general admission! The Crimson tour is passing through Austin, Texas, on November 1st. I purchased a ticket for what I think is a reasonable $20.50. When I looked for my seat number, I realized that it was a general admission ticket! It seems to me that the band has mostly been playing theater-type venues rather than general admission venues. Is my perception correct? I've asked around and have been told that the Austin Music Hall is a general admission place: no seats, open floor, holds about 2000 people. If any ETers are going to be attending the Austin show, let me know. I'll be there real early to get a good place for the CGT set. Walt [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:24:12 -0400 (EDT) From: James Poulakos Subject: Pat Mastelotto / XTC / Mr. Mister In the credits for _Skylarking_, "Prairie Prince" is credited with playing the part of the "time bomb." I assume this means he played drums. He is the drummer for the Tubes. I find Mastelotto's style distinct enough to recognize; he favors the 3-in-4 reggae triplets and has a dark, yet high-pitched snare. I like his style and think it fits XTC well on _Oranges and Lemons_. XTC fans: compare the drumming on that album to the drumming on _Nonesvch_, which is dry, staid and lifeless, IMO. Anyone know who played drums on the Dukes Of Stratosphear albums? Could it have been Prairie Prince? [ Replies by private email to the poster please. For XTC matters, check out John Relph's Chalkills list at http://reality.sgi.com/employees/relph/chalkhills/, or email chalkhills-request at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com -- Toby ] ------------------------------------------------------------------- My home page is now at http://www.gsu.edu/~engjcp/zero.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ James Poulakos [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:03:11 -0600 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Re: ET #228 Gary L. Wright (not the "Dream Weaver"???) wrote: >My personal favorite Fripp solo is on one of the Fripp & Eno albums, I >don't >remember the name of the song, but the chorus has something about >"in the cool >August moon" or something like that. The song is "St. Elmo's Fire" from Eno's album "Another Green World" which features many brilliant guitar parts from RF. Ed Poe wrote: >BTW, anyone know who played drums on [XTC's] Skylarking's "The Man Who >Sailed >Around His Soul" It was the Tubes drummer Prairie Prince (I think I also answered the same query in Chalkhills) :-) Cheers, CV [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:16:11 -0700 From: Rob MacCoun Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #228 >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 00:40:01 -0600 >From: poeea at centum dot utulsa dot edu (Ed Poe) >Subject: the right note / wrong note > >(2): Actually, he was entirely serious (he meant it as consolation). The >saying goes, in jazz improvisation there are only two possible "wrong" >notes - +4 and M7 - and you can usually get away with both of them >(although not in the same solo). To overgeneralize: use a lot of sharp 4 >and you sound like Coltrane (I _said_ I'm overgeneralizing); M7 and you >sound like Kenny G. Really? I've never heard of that rule in jazz. +4 and M7 both appear in the Lydian mode, which is quite popular for jazz solos. (Against major chords, many improvisers do try to avoid the NATURAL 4th -- unless they're in the Allmann Bros or Marshall Tucker Bands). Also, +4 sounds great against many altered dominant chords, though I must sadly report that it hasn't helped me sound like Coltrane. I'll agree that Kenny G is big on the M7, and I'd even concede that in major keys it has become the leisure suit of intervals. But M7 sounds pretty interesting in minor keys, and way out there against domininant or diminished chords. I guess the bottom line is that I find it difficult to discuss intervals out of the context of the rest of the harmony of a piece. By the way, I recall a late 70s interview with Steely Dan where they said +4 was their secret weapon. And +4 is of course the tritone that Mr. Fripp has used to great effect. (I've tossed in that last bit to make sure all my babble, burble, brouhaha has something to do with Elephant Talk.) Rob MacCoun Grad School of Pub Policy, Univ. of Calif. at Berkeley 2607 Hearst, Berkeley CA 94720, t/510-642-7518, f/510-643-9657 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:37:31 -0400 From: RICHARD dot W dot RAPP at adn dot sprint dot com Subject: John Wetton - UK Project Last night, in a interview on Ed Schakie's Classic Cafe show, (93.3 WMMR, Phila), John Wetton confirmed a "reunion" of UK and an upcoming album release. He said Carl Palmer and Eddie Jobson have agreed to be in the project, and that he was confirming the guitar player today. (He wouldn't say the name prematurely). This interview was in support of his mini solo tour he's currently doing on the East Coast. The interview was great, they went through Wetton's history and played music from FAMILY, ASIA, KING CRIMSON, UK live in Phila, and 3 Wetton solo albums... My only regret is the lack of a tape in my deck to record the session. Rich Rapp richard dot w dot rapp at adn dot sprint dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin at MOM dot SPIE dot ORG (Kevin Tripp) Subject: re: Pat Mastelotto / XTC / Mr. Mister >XTC haven't had a "drummer" in a while - they seem to use session men >interchangeably. As such, that Mastelotto played with them is, to me, a >footnote. (BTW, anyone know who played the drums on Skylarking's "Man who >sailed around his soul?") Prairie Prince (of The Tubes "fame"). He plays on all of _Skylarking_. My vote for the best XTC guest drummer yet. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:04:42 -0400 From: ali00mhs at unccvm dot uncc dot edu (Mark Sullivan) Subject: Fripp's recent liner notes Couldn't let that description of the BLESSING OF TEARS liner notes as "contrived exposition" go by without a comment. It's a matter of taste, of course -- but I found them extremely moving, literally to the point of tears when I read them the first time. These notes (along with the ones in the INTERGALACTIC BOOGIE EXPRESS disc) put the lie to Fripp as unfeeling and coldly intellectual. While his writing style is still rather formal and controlled, he's forthright and open about important events in his life which had some direct bearing on the music. So I would argue that there is *musical* justification for the personal matters discussed in them; and I commend Fripp for having the personal courage to reveal himself so openly. At the risk of offending the original poster, perhaps it helps to have had some of the sorts of life experiences he's talking about. Mark Sullivan Charlotte, NC [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:43:51 +0930 From: Phil dot Molloy at Roads dot SA dot Gov dot AU Subject: LTiA Part II fadeout + Young Persons query Organization: Department of Transport, South Australia ________________________________________________________________________ I have been reading ET since about #200 and this is my first time posting, so please forgive if some of these questions have been covered previously ... In ET 225, Geoff Chester wrote: >I still have my vinyl pressing of LTiA since it has something the DE CD >doesn't...Jamie saying "Can I do one more immediately?" as the last >echo of the coda from LTiA Part II fade to sonic blackness.... I don't want to get into the 'who-actually-utters-this' thread, but for all those years I always thought he said "Can I do one more image please?". I know this doesn't make much sense, but hey, there was a strange sort of appeal there. Guess this thread has blown that one out of the water. And Kevin Patrick O'Hern recently wrote in ET 226: >A must have: (probably hen's teeth by now) "The Young Person's Guide" >on vinyl. How rare is this? I have a copy and wouldn't dream of separating, but just for interest ... does anyone know how many were pressed? At least now that CD's are the vogue, when your house gets burgled they don't bother taking the vinyl. And in the same ET 226, tonyola wrote: >Iconoclast would be better off reading Fripp's notes from "Young >Person's Guide to King Crimson", which can be downloaded from ET. Can it? What is the URL? Is this the same as the booklet which came with YPGtKC? That was a great read. Cheers! Great list. Phil Molloy Adelaide phil dot molloy at roads dot sa dot gov dot au South Australia ________________________________________________________________________ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Sasha Alain Wolf Subject: Jamie Muir I was rummaging around the Gong home page on the web, and I found something very interesting. It seems that Jamie Muir, Allan Holdsworth (UK, Bruford), and Allan Gowen (National Health) were all in a band together circa 1971. What were they called??? Does anyone have any further information on this subject, like if their recordings are still around. - Sasha [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Mathews, Thomas J." Subject: Pat's drumming/Fripp & expresso/Atlanta party? Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 13:29:00 EST A little too much reading material on mMister and Xtc (the latter of which I do enjoy when I'm in a fun mood) for me. Mastelotto drums superbly on _The First Day_ which seems to be (?) his first outing with Fripp. Perhaps it was Sylvian who buzzed him. There are times when listening to that album where I get a clear sense of the passages of time when Pat has his sticks in the air - the moments between striking. For my ears and the synapses involved this is percussive talent. PLUS he was drinking red wine after the DC show. Maybe he should get together with Ginger Baker some day. oohlala As I stood first in line at the DC soundscapes/CGT/LGA general admission show at Gaston Hall, Georgetown University (reportedly on the list of Fripp's top ten places to play) I talked to Paul and listened to about an hour of various CGT/LGA combinations warming up in the stairwell while Fripp ripped it up inside the Hall. I was in heaven. Fripp made one nearby appearance and acknowledged my wave (last time was Mesa, AZ.) The next time he was down the hall calling out, "Expresso? Expresso? Expresso?" while he carried around three Styrofoam cups that were partially filled. I dislike the word cute but that describes the scene. Seeing Robert being generous was a nice touch. I don't drink java but might have if he came my way. Meanwhile: Any Parties for the Atlanta shows?? I'm flying down for my birthday (37th) week-end. all fingers crossed, tj [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: MC Ice-Crim Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Someone brought up the sample of CothCK from Merday Morn again and it reminded me of a commet my cousin made about it. He mentioned that this was the earliest example that he has heard (me too) of one song sampling another. Can anyone think of anything earlier? Was KC the pioneer of the most common practice in rap music? Does the mighty Crimson King have a secret urge to drop Bruford and Mastelotto and hire a good beat box? Will the next album feature songs such as "I May be a Dinosaur, but I'm Still a Gangsta, Ho" and " Thrak the Police!"? Find out same Thrak time.....same Thrak channel. Dig me, Brad bsc0150 at tam2000 dot tamu dot edu ps Front row Crimso in Houston. Yes! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mark gurevitch Subject: Drive to 1984 (1981?) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 19:40:46 -0700 Tennessee. First timer. I am very interested in the ideas that appeared on the album covers of the "Drive ..." series. Specifically the "Inappropriate structures always tend to ... appropriate structures...." stuff. Somewhere in my hardcopy archives I have a photocopy of this material and if I find it I'll gladly share. Did these ideas come from J.G.Bennett et al? If not, from bob Himself? Love your newsletter. Thanks. Allisa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Brian Thomson Subject: RE: Favourite Solo Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 16:42:00 PDT "Gary L. Wright" said: >"I personally like the version on Disk 1, recorded at the Providence, RI >concert. My personal favorite Fripp solo is on one of the Fripp & Eno >albums, I don't remember the name of the song, but the chorus has >something about "in the cool August moon" or something like that. This >particular solo reminds me quite a bit of the much-discussed solo at the >end of Asbury Park on the "USA" album. Ah, yes, "St Elmo's Fire" from "Another Green World" - 1975?. Another Fripp / Eno recommendation must be the sounds in "Web - Lascaux Mix" from Eno's "Nerve Net". And "Angel Gets Caught In The Beauty Trap" by No-Man gets me every time - completely OTT in a camp seventies sense, but still, nothing can touch "Elephant Talk" IMHO - the live version on B'Boom just isn't the same without the Fripp solo. Ban This Moron (anag.) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:11:34 -0400 From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) Subject: Fripp's philosophy I would have to agree with peg that Fripp's philosophy directly affects his music. Reading his commentary on "The Bridge Between" and the material form the GCD box set this is very apparent. However, not understanding (or even disagreeing) with R.F's philospohy certainly does not mean that a person will dislike R.F's music. For example, I liked KC long before i became interested in the motivations of the members of the band. Long before I even new who the members of the band were, in fact. well it's goodbye. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 15:12:20 +0000 From: Christian Hack Subject: Crimso music in French erotic movie! A few days ago I watched (accidentally, of course!) on TV here in Germany the so-called "soft-erotic"-movie "Emanuela" (from 1974 or 75/director Just Jaeckin). Did anyone ever notice that the music which is played throughout the movie is nothing else than a slightly varied arrangement (partly transposed) of LTiA, Part 2 played by a sort of pop-dance-orchestra? I do not know if there are any credits for Crimso. Was this topic ever discussed or does anybody know something about these facts? [ It's so easy to ACCIDENTALLY watch those things isn't it... -- Toby ] Crimsonally, Christian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] GIG REVIEW [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 17:49:03 JST From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (T. Ohsawa) Subject: KC Gig Review - Tokyo Yesterday evening (Oct 10), I went to a KC gig at Hitomi Memorial Hall in Sangen-jyaya, Tokyo. Following is a brief summary of the gig. As I already posted a review for Oct 1 gig in the last ET, please refer to that one. I will basically mention here those I think worth further mentioning. Oct 10 KC Concert in Tokyo Overall, it was another great concert. This time, a lot of improvisation and free atmosphere among the members. They seemed to enjoy venturing into new fields by trying different notes here and there throughout the concert. Although the performance seemed somewhat rough in few moments, the spirit of a band that puts live performance as an important factor in their music was clearly seen. 10th was a national holiday in Japan and so the concert started early at 17:00 with CGT. KC came on stage at 17:30 the same way I described previously. But right at the start of the first song, Zera Hun Jinjheet (sorry I forgot the spelling), there was a problem with AB's guitar. After just two or three strokes of a chord, AB lost his sound. TL soon recognized it and gave a sign to AB. AB seemed unaware of it in the beginning but at the sign of TL he quickly pressed something (foot pedal?) it seemed, and the sound came through. Audience recognized the no-sound situation and were surprised. But the first song ended with a big applause. For me, this was the first time I heard Zera hun jinjheet in this year's KC tour. I later realized that KC didn't play ToaPP. So, ZHJJ did replace ToaPP. KC used a taped recording (I guess) of the voice (speaking about "dangerous place") all through ZHJJ. I think the engineers did a good work in matching it to the live performance. The second song was Red. In Oct 1, 2 and 3 gigs, Red came much later in the performance. On the 10th, KC brought it to the beginning part. I think this had a good effect on the audience as they got 'heated up' quickly. Red is one of the most popular (so it seems in the concert) song played live. Following songs were played in this order. * Frame by Frame * Dinosaur * One Time * Vrooom Vrooom * RF's Soundscapes followed by B'Boom * Thrak (improvised totally) * Matte Kudasai * Neurotica * Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream * Improv - Two Sticks * Elephant Talk * Indiscipline ----------------- encore * drum & percussion act BB, PM, AB * Larks'Toungue in Aspic Part II ----------------- encore * People * Walking on Air RF's soundscapes on Oct 10 was quite different from those of Oct 1, 2, and 3. He had put in a rather strong/acute sound inbetween the usual floating soundscapes. This he did before touching the control box in front of him in order to manipulate the sounds. I liked the tension given by the acute guitar phrase put inbetween the calm flow of waving sounds. B'Boom which immediately followed RF's soundscapes was similar to the one I've heard on other dates so far (someone can fill the blank for KC gig at Nakano Sun Plaza, Tokyo, which I did not go). What was most amazing to me on Oct 10 was the complete (it seemed to me) improvisation of Thrak. First of all, it started with a calm piano sounds played by AB, TL playing stand-alone bass to produce violin-like string sound. This portion reminds me of the second half portion of Thrak in the original version in the CD. KC brought it in the beginning and also improvised it more densely. On top of this pleasant surprise, RF made a rather long solo during a heavy improvisation. I cannot describe it in words but it was one of a kind I've never heard before since the '60's. All KC members were doing heavy improvisation. At one time, only the drums (BB/PM) followed the original rhythm of Thrak and all the other members were doing something very different. I recognized that moment that Thrak is a living animal. I thought that KC wants Thrak to grow up. KC doesn't want to have it stay the same. Actually, this is a big challenge. Have you thought about a song that evolves? A song with a life of its own? Quite interesting. I like the concept. With ETers all around the world, we can witness the growth of Thrak. Thrak on Oct 10 was truely a better music piece than before. KC members all seemed to enjoy this venturing act. I felt that they wanted to reach out and find what's there in the unknown. They tried every bit of challenge per instrument, per existing "original" phrase in the CD. It was really fascinating. It was like seeing the process of creation or composition, which usually there's no chance for audience. BTW, AB used an electric drilling machine again (he touched the guitar strings with it) . But this time, much longer and much more apparently. Another change in Oct 10 gig was an insertion of taped (?) AB voices in Neurotica. On Oct 1, 2 and 3 gigs, there was no use of taped voices. KC simply did the song without it. Indiscipline is always appreciated by the audience. It's a song that you could tell whether KC is in good condition or not. The blank/no-sound (short) spaces inbetween various musical phrases are the key to creating high tension which makes this song a very unique product. Especially, the spaces such as the one right before and after "I wish you were here to see it" and "I like it" in the end. A half-second or even a quarter of a second make big difference when these blank spaces are concerned. So far, for me Oct 2 gig had the best tension in Indiscipline. The song title rightly imply the nature of this music piece. Discipline is probably the only solution to achieving such a high tension in music. I've seen it live how difficult it is. Even for such talented players/artists like KC. After Indiscipline, the KC members lined up on stage. Standing ovation. I saw RF laughing hard, which was new to me. They all enjoyed playing, the faces told. I tend to think that they enjoyed the mass improvisation of Thrak. But you never know, it's only my guess. The drumming and percussion playing after the first encore were also changed a bit. First of all, the whole session was longer than Oct 1, 2 and 3 gigs. BB played energetically. He seemed most enjoying among all members during Oct 10 gig. A lot of new ideas were thrown in as improvised drumming/percussion by BB. Big big applause. BB is popular in Japan. He even had a drum clinic session alone in Tokyo separate from KC activities (sponsored by a Japanese music instrument manufacturer). KC did LTiAPII after the drumming session. I really enjoyed the music again. RF's introductory noise-like (but it is not noise to me) guitar solo was magnificent. It blew my mind off. After LTiAPII, People was performed. On all the other gigs I saw, People was performed in the middle of the gig. On Oct 10, KC shifted it to encore area. I read in ET that some people do not feel this song so Crimson-like but to me it's also another good Crimson music. The fact that KC brought it to encore area is not a lip service to audience but their confidence in it. People was steady and solid. The last song was Walking on Air just like it was in other gigs. *BTW, RF did not stand up from his chair to watch other members do improvisation, unlike Oct 1, 2 and 3 gigs. TG's guitar-like stick makes good keyboard-like sounds to fill in the spaces. TL's vertical stand-alone bass guitar creates both violin-like higher tones and very heavy/low bass sounds. The division of work between BB and PM is well done. There is even a portion in People where BB stands up and does not play drums at all. Although very limited, backing vocals of TG and TL add depth to the performance. This is especially true in People. *On Oct 10, I heard RF's backing/underlying (is this how you call it?) guitar riffs in Frame by Frame and Elephant Talk much more clearly than in other three gigs. Also, it seemed to me that an overall soud separation among instruments were better on the 10th. Is this due to the hall condition? Or better mix? * All KC members seemed more relaxed than before. No more jet lags? Getting used to Japanese weather (it was humid when they arrived, became cooler and dry last week) and food? Someone, please write about their gigs in Nagoya, Osaka and Sendai. I'm curious about audience' reaction. bye, Tom [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] TICKET FUN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:09:21 CDT From: "William Marcyniuk " Subject: Tickets for 11/29, Rosemont Theatre... will be avail on 10/21 at the Rosemont Horizon box office. I'm assuming that's when Ticketmaster'll be selling them, as well... This public service announcement has been brought to you by William [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: jbrainin at mordor dot com (Jonathan Brainin) Subject: NYC shows @ Longacre 11/20-11/25 (no 11/23) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:39:55 -0400 I called the Longacre Theater (actually Teletron) today about ticket availability for these shows as I have every day for the last two and one half weeks. Much to my suprise, they actually had some concrete info to give me! Tickets for these shows will go on sale, ONLY BY PHONE, Sunday, October 22 at 9 am. Prices were not yet announced. See you there, Jonathan Brainin [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]