From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSat Aug 12 17:39:40 1995 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 13:23:15 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #214 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 214, Friday, 11 August 1995 Today's Topics: Re: 4-yr old fans April Wine Interview (none) Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 Re. Class Discussion! Reunions Bruford and Kazumi Watanabe Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 Re: Islands Yet another former member's whereabouts Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 Re: #1(3) Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 B Boom the offical bootleg B'BOOM in the US Finally Wakeman, Wetton, and Bruford Tribute Album Fantasies VROOOM recording on THRAK Ethics of Boots. Responses to items in ET #213 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 People RE: Elephant Talk #213 Re: Fripp/Sinclair? Soundscapes tour update Dinosaur Kids Re: Fripp Thompson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ******** It's Vacation Time! *********** Please note that ET will be on vacation from 14-29 August. Please try to avoid sending mail to ET in that period, in case my mailbox explodes. Thanks! Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ARCHIVES: The ET archives are: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 01:14:19 GMT From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Re: 4-yr old fans Jimmy Baumgart writes: > Hi everyone at ET. Can anybody top this? Imagine my surprise (and > pleasure) to come home from work and find my 4 year-old daughter quietly > playing with blocks in the playroom, while singing to herself "I'mmmm a > DINOSAUR...." > > Next thing you know she'll be singing "Sex, sleep, eat, drink, dream...." > for her kindergarten class!!!! My four-year old son (who will be 5 by the time you read this) also sings "Dinosaur" quite frequently - usually very loudly! I think the lyrics have a lot to do with it - he often plays at digging for dinosaur bones. And yes, he does sing along to SSEDD... although I've yet to hear this attempted as a solo effort. Is Dinosaur now officially "King Crimson's most popular children's song"? p.s. Thanks to the poster who confirmed that Ian MacDonald of KC is also the author of the recent book about the Beatles' songs. I'm quite intrigued by this, as the book is quite scathing about "rock" music in general, and is very critical of many of the Beatles' later and more "progressive" songs. Also, there are no references to KC in the book, although there would have been plenty of opportunity. Lots of reference to the Rolling Stones, of course, as well as Grateful Dead, Zappa, Hendrix, The Who, etc. I can highly recommend this book ("Revolution in the Head") for anyone who has anything from The Beatles in their collection, although I disagree with his opinion on many of their songs. Regards, Russell Whitworth [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:46:00 -0600 From: Paul Martz Subject: April Wine I recently set up my wife's old 8-track player that she has had in a box for years. While thumbing through the endless Cheap Trick, Peter Frampton, Kiss, Judas Priest, Fleetwood Mac, etc., I came across April Wine's "Harder Faster". Next thing I knew, I was listening to their cover of 21st Century Schizoid Man... on 8-track! Truly a unique situation. -paul martz at shaft dot fc dot hp dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 09 Aug 1995 12:29:13 -0500 From: Kurt Kleinschmidt Subject: Interview There is an interview in the August 1995 issue of _Relix_, the Grateful Dead rag (volume 22 issue number 4), with AB, BB, and TL. I have not had the chance to read it myself but I have heard that there is discussion of the band working up another song from the past that will cause great consternation on this forum. You have to read the article to find out what it is; I'm not going to tell. BTW, there is also a (final?) interview with Jerry Garcia, who passed on to the great pharmacy in the sky today. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 10:01:18 PDT From: Michael Shearer lbp2 at po dot CWRU dot Edu (Lewis B. Pollak Jr) writes: > >On another note of interest, my wife picked up for me last week a Rock n' >Roll version of "Peter and the Wolf" with heavy work by Brian Eno, Phil >Collins to name a few, as well as cameo appearances by the likes of Bill >Bruford, Keith Tippett, Julie Tippett, Manfred Mann, Cosey Powell, and many >others. I don't remember the label, but it was from 1992. I have this also. Mine is from 1975, and is an LP (according to the jacket, it is available on 8 track). The label is RSO (England). The cover is an amatuerish painting of Peter entering a forest with the wolf looking on from the side. "Peter and the Wolf" is written across the top in what is best described as a bad copy of the writing used for the original Genesis logo. The people involved are: Peter: Manfred Mann Bird: Gary Brooker Duck: Chris Spedding, Gary Moore Cat: Stephanie Grappelli Wolf: Eno Pond: Keith Tippett Grandfather: Jack Lancaster Hunters: Jon Hiseman, Bill Bruford, Cozy Powell, Phil Collins, Alvin Lee, Robin Lumley, Julie Tippett, and the English Chorale It's pretty fun, but nothing special beyond the list of names. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "'Sod the music' said the man in the suit, 'I understand profit and without that, it's no use. Why don't you go away and write commercial songs; come back in three years, that shouldn't be too long...'" -Peter Hammill, 1975 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:34:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 Re: Exposure. 'Chicago' is sung by Peter Hammill, not Darryl Hall. I too prefer the original vinyl mixes and would like to see them appear on CD (although I like how Fripp let some of the songs play out longer on the CD than on vinyl.) Not only did he use alternate vocal takes on the CD, he mixed himself out of 'Breathless'! Btw, does anyone know if the 'Definitive Edition' CD differs in any way from the 'non-definitive' CD release? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: tward at Sgeog dot geographix dot com Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:33:59 -0600 Subject: RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 I have "Music for Piano and Drums" on CD, but it is a Japanese import. I bought it about 3 years, so I can't say that it is still available. Re the Bruford/Moraz collaborations that someone else mentioned: Anybody know if _Music for Piano and Drums_ will ever be re-released? I've only got it on vinyl; I'd *love* to have it on CD... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:30:05 -0700 From: suture at portal dot ca (Mark Mushet) Subject: Re. Class Discussion! I recall one of my high school teachers early admonishments to me upon seeing the results of my first exam under his tutelage: "Mark Mushet, it's high time you started to pay attention and DO YOUR HOMEWORK!" Now, the fact that it took me until the age of thirty to take this lesson to heart is of no consequence. However, I now know the importance of doing just that: doing my homework and paying attention! Randy Long, in his reply to my UNTHINKING IDOLATRY posting, was clearly doing neither. His first failing grade comes upon the realization that he didn't even spell my name correctly! However, I'd like to thank him for the response, reply to his response, and then get on with what I should really be doing at the moment! Randy, if you blew out your hearing at King Crimson or any other rock concerts, GET TESTED and wear protection from now on! If you truly love music, in all its forms, you will be gravely saddened by the day that you have to sell your sound system because it is no longer of any use to you. (I know, it sounds like I'm borrowing ad copy from a condom commercial!) Regarding your seeming support of Fripp Cloning: What frightening assumptions you make! If Trey Gunn said that he gave up the guitar because "your hands automatically play blues figures" who do we blame? Firstly, ourselves. Secondly, the machine of consumer capitalism (record companies and their ilk) that does everything in its power to ensure that the vast majority of us are thoroughly marinated in pop, rock (blues?) music cliches from the moment we exit the womb. I was raised on Elton John, Alice Cooper and my first concert, in 1975, was Led Zeppelin. But I looked around and followed many paths which eventually lead me to Indian classical music, 20th Century orchestral music etc. etc. In some cases, the clues that may lead to these paths are contained in the work of more interesting rock groups like, say, King Crimson. However, more often than not, rock audiences do not pick up on the clues or follow the paths. This is borne out by the consistent levels of interest in and sales of other, more demanding (and rewarding) forms of music. Thankfully, and in part due to the net and exchanges like these, this is all changing. Even WIRED magazine is beginning to review a more solid selection of musics (Kevin Kelly's interview with Brian Eno, however, stank of sloppy thinking on both sides). So, to answer you more directly: Yes, there is always a deafening noise floor out of which few masters arrive but if we do not allow that each person MAY BE capable of doing so, we are in a sorry state. Fripp seems to have had an indelible affect on his students who are now performing in public. I sincerely hope they emerge from his influence, taking with them the best of his teachings, and carve out some new details and add some interesting combinations. However, to listen to the CGT, his imprint is deep, way too deep. Regarding my "GUMBO" remark: I did not mean to infer that Bach's music resembled gumbo. It was an overall impression of their program. And I agree with you on the highlights of their material. So, do you like Ralph Towner? Now there's an intoxicating and successful blend of influences! Nice guitar sound too! Regarding the "duet": Were you at the Vancouver, B.C. show? Gunn and Levin played together for more than 8 seconds pal. And any common dictionary would confirm that the exchange between them could be called a duet. Regarding "superfluousness": Gunn may be critical to the KC conception in the studio but who is cheated when he is, as you acknowledge, "buried alive in the tour mix"? I'll tell you: Trey Gunn, and the audience. If it doesn't work live, let Trey stay at home. The addition of another drummer is a matter of personal interest I guess. I don't care for it much. And yes I've heard the Fripp/Sylvian material. I even sprung for all the "special edition" material (box sets, gold discs etc.) Regarding my "pretention and ham-fistedness": No flame intended sweetheart but fuck you! I never suggested that anyone listen to "obscure" composers. You yourself refer to Lindbeg and Dolden and THEY are on the same stage as Xenakis, Ligeti, Messiaen, Berio, etc. etc. These are BIG names in their field and attention to that field (and the resulting "cross-pollenization" with other musics) is growing. I am not interested in elitism or obscuritanism. I hosted a public radio show for five years trying (successfully) to broaden the audience base for a variety of musics. I'd like to be immersed in a culture that is wholly respectful of flexibility in taste and openess to new experience in whatever field is being discussed. My Xenakis CDs sit next to Peter Murphy, Petula Clark, Meat Beat Manifesto and Zakir Hussain. They don't seem to be complaining. I don't think the urging of people to "move forward" is a suggestion that they drop or lessen their respect for that which may be left "behind". But semantics are only so interesting to me and perhaps my choice of words was not ideal. Regarding Dolden and complexity: Sure, if a rock band can make it work (and KC often does). Paul Dolden is a good friend of mine (we met through my radio work many years back) He used to play rock guitar and is acutely aware of the need for visceral impact in new music. He delivers better than anyone. Have you heard Dolden's L'Ivresse de la Vitesse (Seduction by Speed)? He has a thrash metal section in there that will put a smile on your face and make John Zorn's rapid fire patiche sound positively childish! And Xenakis' harpsichord music could easily be considered a dead waking thrash, only with articulation and stunning virtuosity (and musical genius!). Also, I don't see how a band should "inhabit" an overlap. You then suggest that they push the boundaries. But what if the boundaries are already down? And where should their destination be? Regarding my "good call": I know (couldn't pass up a little conceit!). Regarding "Guitar as Orchestra": Re-read my posting. It separates inventiveness from the act of compressing the sound of a string section and blurting it back out in a venue where I often hear the real thing. The comparisson is ugly. Adrian's barking up the wrong tree with that practice. Otherwise, I agree with you. Regarding "Sacred Songs": I've never heard it. I may agree with you when I finally do! Yours, Mark Mushet (that's with a "t" on the end, Randy!) P.S. If you ARE from Vancouver, or are passing through, lets get together for a drink! Purina Cat Ciao! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 15:46:58 EDT From: david at Visix dot COM (David Charlap) Subject: Reunions aprasad at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) writes: > >Personally, I have no idea why anyone would want to see any earlier >line-ups reunite and rehash old material. Let John Wethead take care of >that nonsense with this absolutely ludicrous U.K. reunion that's on the >way. (One can only hope Bruford chooses to preserve his dignity and bow out >of this while he still can... didn't "Union" teach him anything?) I have the exact opposite feeling. Most of the reunion albums I've heard were great to my ears. The "new" Emerson Lake & Palmer has done some amazing work (If you haven't heard "Black Moon" or "In the Hot Seat", get them...) As for the ill-fated Yes Union, the problem was too many lawyers. I saw that lineup live twice. The second time (6 months after the first time), they were absolutely amazing. I'm certain that the album would have been just as good if the record companies and lawyers hadn't forced it out the door prematurely. As for other reunions, the Who's 1989 tour was very good, considering that one of them is now dead and had to be replaced by a session guy. Anyway, I don't understand people who associate "reunion" with "bad". Sure, there have been some groups that lost the magic when they got back together, but there have been many others that havent. This attitude sounds just like what I hear from the "grunge" crowd - with the stupid claim that anything old ('scuse me, "retro") must be bad. It just ain't so. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:18:55 -0400 From: KnKreutzer at aol dot com Subject: Bruford and Kazumi Watanabe In Elephant Talk v95 #213 Mike Uchima recommends Kazumi Watanabe's *The Spice of Life.* A follow-up to this album, *The Spice of Life Too,* was recorded and released in 1988. To my ears it's a marked improvement on its predecessor - better crafted, less busy - though since I'm not a big fan of that "muscular fusion" genre I'm probably not the person to ask. Peter Vettese (once a Jethro Tull member) is added to the original album's lineup of Watanabe, Jeff Berlin, and Bruford, and contributes some rather nice keyboard textures. Bill Bruford wrote a couple of the tracks on *The Spice of Life Too,* one of which ("Men and Angels") is lovely enough to justify the price of admission. Mr. Uchima also asks about the availability of the Moraz/Bruford *Music for Piano and Drums* on CD. I have a Virgin Japan CD of this album (VJD-5006), though I'm certain I've seen a U.S. domestic version in the recent past. This album is more interesting than its successor *Flags,* and if I could dispense with the cloying "Children's Concerto" that begins *Music for Piano* and replace it with Bruford's version of Max Roach's "The Drum Also Waltzes" (on *Flags*), I'd be happy with just the one. Kenneth Kreutzer Kent, Ohio (KnKreutzer at aol dot com) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 09 Aug 1995 15:28:46 -0600 (CST) From: Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 I was just wondering if anyone has tampered with "First Inaugural Addrss to I.A.C.E. Sherborne House" off of Exposure. I was trying to slow it down, and get it to the right frequency for it to play at its original 45 min. Any one had any luck? I was just playing around with software more than anything else, but I would be interested if any one else has tried this. Scott [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Mike Lockyer" Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:25:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Islands I agree with the later comments that "Islands" still sound great ! but ..... has anyone heard both CD versions ie the original and the definitive master ? I bought the original as soon as it was on CD and would lik to know if its worth buying the defintive master Any comments on the CD versions regarding Lizard also ? Also has anyone ever seen any of Islands perfomed live ? I saw the band in that period but nothing from Islands although stuff from Lizard was performed (Cirkus and Lady of the Dancing Water , I Think) Keith Tippett was excellent on Islands as was Septomber Energy by Centipede a large free form jazz group with R Fripp (as producer on the double LP) Is this on CD in the UK (will it ever be ?) ? Was it true that Mr Fripp nearly joined YES before S Howe joined (about the time of Lizard) ? Mike Lockyer [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:37:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Ashley Edward Collins Subject: Yet another former member's whereabouts This may or may not interest anybody, but my girlfriend and I got into a huge fight last night. We made up this afternoon, much to my relief. Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" kept going through my head after we reconciled, so I pulled out my only copy of the song, Tina Turner's version on _Private Dancer,_ an album I haven't listened to in many moons. I was glancing over the credits, and it turns out the sax on the song "Private Dancer" was done by none other than Mel Collins! Just thought I'd pass this along. Ashley Collins aec200z at barbados dot cc dot odu dot edu "I now pronounce you man and wife. Proceed with the execution." --German captain, _The African Queen_ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:55:45 -0400 (EDT) From: CRIMSO Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 Hmm...to whom made the comment concerning King Crimson doing covers.....and the mentioning Jethro Tull....hmm...well...*gulp* Maybe they should do FREEBIRD THEN WHILE THEIR AT IT??? What are you mental???? If I want to here old songs I can go see YES and ELP. I dont think any older material would be cool for Crimson to cover, let that be the job of REAL dinosaurs. Although I'll ask one question to the audience: If there was ONE Steely Dan song that you would like to see the dynamic Double Triple do....what would that be??? (isnt that a sick thought, came to me in a vision!) [ How about "My Rival"? And Don & Walt could cover "Indiscipline" -- Toby ] Umm...and to the person who said that Islands was a bad album---bite your tongue mister!!! Nothing is further from the truth!!!! Tim Ritter [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:12:40 -0400 From: BHBergen at aol dot com Subject: Re: #1(3) Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 In a message dated 95-08-09 13:08:01 EDT, you write: >Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 10:18:27 +0800 >From: John dot Lukes at Ebay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) >Subject: Re: Fripp/Thompson, and others! > >While positing possible collaborations, plausible or apparently >implausible, how about Richard Sinclair and Robert Fripp? Anyone know of >any connection there? Richard is a early member of Caravan, late 70s >member of Camel, founding member of Hatfield and the North, and is known as >a great proponent of the "Canterbury sound" -- Richard is a talented >bassist, interesting guitarist, and excellent singer-songwriter. > >-JOHN Intriguing suggestion. There is another Canterbury Sound/Crimson connection: in the mid-70s Bill Bruford toured with National Health, the successor band to Hatfield and the North. I had the privilege to see them at the University of Sussex in England in the Spring of 1977 (perhaps Fall of 1976) and to meet Bill. Sinclair was not involved in National Health (to my knowledge), but Dave Stewart (not *that* Dave Stewart), Pip Pyle, and Phil Miller were. Their 1977 eponymous album came out on VISA records. Though I very much liked Caravan and Camel, and saw both, Hatfield and the North and National Health, I felt, took the Canterbury sound in rather different, more experimental directions. As for a Sinclair/Fripp collaboration, while it might be interesting, it seems that the more unexpected the pairing the more delightful the result (e.g., Fripp/Darryl Hall, Fripp/Andy Summers). I think the musicians should choose whom they want to collaborate with themselves. Cordially, Barry BHBergen at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:19:55 GMT From: orno at mmedia dot is (Orn Orrason) Subject: B Boom the offical bootleg Dear readers I recently ordered the new live in Argentina double CD from DGM. It promptly arrived within a week at my doorsteps in Reykjavik. Thank you DGM people for your quick service! This CD was bought because 1. I could not go to the concerts without pay at least USD 800. 2. This is the first live KC record since the material on GD from 1974 was released 3.I was excited to hear how they sounded in Argentina and also playing the old stuff, RED, The Talking Drum and LTIA II. So how is this new release ? Simply wonderful.... We hear the new material in developement, we hear the 82-84 stuff recycled, we hear 74 stuff redone again by mostly new line up with vastly different instruments. It is interesting but it is also good. They sound like they are also excited and having fun. The surprice for me is how the Discipline material is done. It is in my opinion much better then on the studio album, which sounds flat and lifeless in comparison. Buy the CD for this reason only. Buy the album to hear the '74 material again freshly played. It is different but still Crimsonized. Well is seems to be enough to have some fripperies in the background. Cross's violin is neatly done with the guitar synthesiser. The sound quality is excellent. It is more dynamic and open than the Thrak studio album. I especially love the drums. If we compare it to The Great Deceiver which is a great recording we can say it is a no-noise version. The BB is however taken from the mixing console so the audience noise and shouting is much lower. The bass drum is much less prominet but again you will hear many little things from the drums. I give the recording A. A+ for a bootleg. Buy it for the recording quality. A must for everyone who wants to have almost everything from Crimson. I would prefer it to the VROOM CD if you are in doubt there. I now have one suggestion for Fripp and friends. Release the Live CD "USA II" which will show the band live half year later. I would at least order it immediately. One possible name for the record : FARTH And please release a VIDEO in PAL format, yes PAL is used in Western Europe and there are fans there ! A new business opportunity for DGM. ____________________________________________ | Orn Orrason | | E.engineer MDS-FJOLNEMAR LTD Iceland | | Fax 354-551 1273 o o | | Phone 354-551 1244 \ ! / | | E-mail orno at mmedia dot is --==-- | | || | |__________________________________________| [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Jean M. Adams" Subject: B'BOOM in the US Finally Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 20:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Hello ET, I just read in a note from my great cousin that B'Boom and the latest Frippertronics and Crafty cd's are TENNITIVELY set for a August 22 release date. No I did not get this from Possible Prod., the local recordstore had the info. So now the countdown begins, of course there could be a delay. Did anyone get any later info on the screensaver? Good Luck -- Jean [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:12:26 -0400 (EDT) From: James Hannigan Subject: Wakeman, Wetton, and Bruford I was recently perusing the family tree in Frame by Frame, and noticed a line for a group called Wakeman, Wetton, and Bruford, May-June 1977. This is just before UK formed. Obviously it didn't work out with Rick, but are there any recordings of this group extant? Just curious to know if anyone has any background on this short-lived "prog-trio." An odd combo, no guitar. Jim [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:53:32 -0400 From: Khosatral at aol dot com Subject: Tribute Album Fantasies The dog days are here, so why not indulge in a bit of wishing? A KC tribute album could draw on the breadth of popular music. Yes, I'd love to hear Primus going nuts on "Satori" and the Kronos Quartet, perhaps with Phillip Glass in tow, could make a great run at, maybe, "Happy Family" or a half dozen others. Soundgarden romping thru "Ladies of the Road" WOULD be a riot (can you play dropped D Crimson?). In the same vein, the Red Hot Chili Peppers could have tons-o-fun with "One More Red Nightmare." (Check out the beautiful 'tron driven bridge in "Sir Psycho Sexy" if you think me daft. Hand clap!) I'd love to put Henry Rollins' spoken word act to work on "Dig Me," "Neurotica" or most obviously "Thela." It would be fitting to find a Roxy-influenced outfit (Rhett Davies tie in) to update a Wetton ballad like "Book of Saturdays," but nothing jumps immediately to mind. Portishead in might make for good listening doing a Belew ballad. And the desert sludge-trancers Kyuss might make a delightful mess of "Fracture." Somebody get the Virgin reps on the horn!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:40:41 -0600 From: genji at cyberport dot com (Don McDowell) Subject: VROOOM recording on THRAK >From what I understand, VROOOM was the only track on THRAK that was actually recorded with Crimso in the double trio format; i.e. Fripp/Gunn/Mastelotto in the left channel and Belew/Levin/Bruford in the right. Once Coda: Marine 475 starts, the recording goes to the regular stereo mix. It's a sort of fun to play with the balance knob on yer ole' stereo and listen to the different trios; especially the different drumming styles with Mastelotto's fairly straight-forward playing in your left ear and Bruford's accents and seizures in the right. Again, i'm not sure where i came across this bit of trivia, but I'm thinking it could easily have been the Elephant Talk website. If any other readers have more info, please help me out! I've also noticed the thread on Torn/Fripp. The _Polytown_ CD is a great listen if you ever get the chance. The bassist on the _Polytown_ CD, Mick Karn, recently released another great album called _the Tooth Mother_ on CMP. David Torn is the guitarist on the album, and it's well worth any trouble. It's a 1995 release, and I got mine in a Tower in Phoenix. Hope any of this helps... Cheers! __ Gabriel, son of Donald. genji at cyberport dot com farmington:new mexico Don McD [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Ethics of Boots. Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 1:34:18 PDT From: Ed Korczynski >From: bullj1 at westatpo dot westat dot com >Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 13:00:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #212 > How can you, an ardent fan, have concert recordings of a band that > asks you not to record their concerts? Well, this is a somewhat complex question, and requires a somewhat complex answer. In two parts. 1. The Mundane Physical Bootlegging potentialy takes money from artists' pockets if recordings are sold. However, if one maintains a strict policy of only trading or giving tapes to other fans then no money is involved so no money is lost to the artists. 2. The Esoteric Bootlegging has a tendency to make the bootlegger less attentive to the most-import PRESENT MOMENT of performance that is being recorded. In so doing, the qualitative experience is likely to be reduced. This is particularly important for an artist (like Robert Fripp) who is involved in The Work (Gurdieff/Ouspensky/Bennet) of being as aware and present in the moment as possible. Subtleties in the communication between performer and audience may be lost. However, if one is very practiced in one's awareness practice this potential problem can be compensated for. CONCLUSION: If you are copying or trading tapes, and no money changes hands, you are OK. If you are recording and you are aware, you are OK. (Quite frankly, I thoroughly enjoy being able to partially re-experience singular moments of spontaneous manifestation that recordings of live performances allow. I harm no one.) It is possible that I am incurably deluded, but I don't think I am. ;-) Enjoy, -Edo -- ***************************************************************************** "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." "Fruit flies like a banana." -Noam Chomsky -Groucho Mark **************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 11:08:28 BST From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham) Subject: Responses to items in ET #213 ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (T. Ohsawa) writes: >I just heard the new B'Boom CD. The recording is quite good. I like the >openness with mid/high-range compared to the "closed" Vroom and Thrak. I >read in ET someone saying this and I agree. Agreed that B'BOOM sounds quite open, with easy access to little details, and the performances are very enjoyable, BUT.... there is an outrageous amount of peak limiting on this CD. When something loud cuts in (eg. vocals, entire band joins in after guitar intro, etc), the record level is dropped dramatically. The degree of limiting is nearly as bad as on "Earthbound". In 1972, recording to cassette, it was understandable. In 1994, recording to DAT, it is inexcusable. What follows is speculation, as I don't know exactly how the recording was made, but it fits the evidence of my ears. I presume that it is because it was a direct-to-DAT recording, and I'd guess that a limiter was used to prevent peaking above 0db. (As many of you may know, when making a digital recording, it is essential that over-recording be avoided: digital "clipping" sounds awful, as opposed to analogue over-recording, which tends to gracefully compress and "squash", with a gradual increase in distortion). So, the use of a peak limiter is sensible when making a digital recording of a live event, but it should be there as an emergency measure to react to unexpected peaks. On B'BOOM, it is in constant operation. Clearly, the "ambient" record level was set far to high. Now, DAT has a dynamic range >90dB, and the dynamic range of a live concert is probably somewhere around 40dB. Why it is necessary to crank up the record level so high when you've got so much headroom is a mystery to me. Diego Cuoghi wrote: [regarding Crimson CDs in Italy] >I noticed that some >record has a note, in the back, that says: "THE DEFINITIVE EDITION - >ReMastered by Robert Fripp and Tony Arnold" (In the Court, In the Wake, >Larks, Discipline), some other has only a white sticker on the front with >the same writing (Beat, Three), but the others... nothing. My record >dealer say that ALL the recent european issues of the Crimson CDs are >remastered, but I'm very doubtful. How can I distinguish the REAL >remastered versions? I'd also like some definitive ('scuse the pun) statement about the Crimson CDs in Europe (in my case, the UK). I too have suspicions that a scam was perpetrated by Virgin whereby "definitive edition" stickers were added to non-DE discs. Since we know that Mr. Fripp does get to read ET, perhaps if he gets the time he could provide a quick note confirming whether European definitive edition CDs should be marked as such on the inserts, as they are in the US. Clive Backham McDonnell Information Systems, UK email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 18:04:36 EDT From: michael Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #213 what is CD5? Thanks:-) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Edmunds Subject: People Organization: Penn State University / University Libraries I've heard several complaints about the apparent platitude of the song "People" (on _Thrak_) and wanted to add a little pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook in defense of AB's lyrics. Yeah, maybe the words sound banal on first listen, but let's take a closer look. At face value the gist of the song is, as the chorus goes, that "People are the main spring turning the world around." But check out the rest of the lyrics. Nearly all the "verbs" in the song are in fact nouns too: fly, clam, beef, sun, toast, tire, smoke, bowl, rock, pay, box. Even in a line where an adjective ("armed") seems more appropriate, AB opts for a noun "people arm to the teeth". This calls into question the notion that people are the main spring of anything--they are inert rather than actors. This passivity is emphasized in second half of the verse after the first chorus. At first listen, it seems a dynamic lyric, with lots happening. But here again, all the "verbs" are nouns: watch, face, dress, baby, phone, wire, house, bug, fire. It turns out the only two present non-progessive verbs in the song are in the first lines: "people flee ... people ... say 'it wasn't me'". So the only two unambiguous verbs in the song ("flee" and "say") express flight (from reality?) and the disavowal of reponsibility ("it wasn't me"). Pretty damning commentary on the people who supposedly turn the world around. Now forget all of this. Jeff Edmunds jhe at psulias dot psu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:16:45 -0600 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: RE: Elephant Talk #213 >From Lewis B. Pollak, Jr: >Rock n' Roll version of "Peter and The Wolf" with heavy work by >by Brian Eno, Phil Collins... etc. The album came out in 1975, not 1992, on RSO Records. It was organized by Robin Lumley, Founder of Brand X, with featured performances from all members of the origial quartet(John Goosall and Percy Jones as well as Collins) as well as Eno and Gary Brooker from Procol Harum and features Bruford playing snare drum on one track only, so I wouldn't recommend it for that alone. Most of the music is original compositions and only briefly feautes the original score by Prokofiev. However, it is a very good album nonetheless. The album comes (or came) with a nicely illustrated booklet with text in English, German, French, Italian, and Spanish, and the credits list five differnt narrators, so I can assume that five different versions of the album came out in the five languages. The English version was narrated by Viv Stanshall from the Bonzo Dog Band. P.S. Jim Sciarra's reply to the identity of the vocalist on "Chicago" from Exposure was mistaken. The vocalist on both "Chicago" and "Disengage" was Peter Hammill. Cheers, Chris Van Valen It's alright, it's over your head. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:02:43 -0400 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Re: Fripp/Sinclair? Just a few comments here: First Mike was wondering about a release on CD of the Bruford/Moraz "Music for Piano and Drums". It does exist on CD, but very rare. I think it may be available in Italy. It is rather curious, though, as just about everything else Bruford has done is available domestically. Why not this one? Maybe some of the readers from Italy can help you. Lewis B. (who appears to be a fellow Ohio native) made some comments on a Rock'n'Roll version of "Peter and the Wolf". He dates it at 1992, but that is more likely the CD reissue date (didn't know it was on CD). It was actually done in 1976, released on the RSO/Polydor label. The responsible parties were Jack Lancaster and Robin Lumley (who also did an excellent album called "Marscape" for which the backing band was Brand X). Lancaster and Lumley wrote all the music except what they borrowed from Prokofiev (and they did credit where that was done). The list of guests include: Garry Moore, Julie Tippets, Manfred Mann, Pete Haywood, Percy Jones, Cozy Powell, Garry Brooker, John Goodsall, Phil Collins, Stephane Grappelli, Brian Eno, Chris Spedding, Keith Tippet, Alvin Lee, John Hiseman, Bill Bruford, with narration by the (sigh) late Vivian Stanshall. Overall a fun piece of music. John Lukes makes the comment: >this has not regressed into any of the name-calling bs that >has ruined so many other "lists" for me. To which I must heartily concur. Subscribers to this list seem to have a healthy (and admirable) attitude that is respectful of people's opinions whether or not agreement is there. The fellow who gave such a panning to "Islands" could have been subjected to flames out the wazoo. Instead subscribers merely suggested to him that he give another listen. (This is the best possible advice for Crimson music. Much of it I must confess to hating the first time I heard it. But it would nag at me to give it another try. Now the music I hated at first listen is some of my favorite music in the world. Has anyone else experienced this with Crimson/Fripp?) John further comments: >While positing possible collaborations, plausible or apparently >implausible, how about Richard Sinclair and Robert Fripp? Anyone know of >any connection there? Richard is a early member of Caravan, late 70s >member of Camel, founding member of Hatfield and the North, and is known as >a great proponent of the "Canterbury sound" -- Richard is a talented >bassist, interesting guitarist, and excellent singer-songwriter. OK, this is an intriguing one. I wouldn't be surpised if there were some gigs in '69 for which both Crimson and Caravan were on the bill. I strongly concur with John's assessment of Sinclair, although I would also add that he's got a voice that is absolutely addictive. What in Fripp's history as a producer would support this match? Initially I thought of Matching Mole's "Little Red Record". I pulled it out to listen again, but decided that although there was the Canterbury connection, it didn't sound much like what Sinclair is up to these days. (Sinclair's "R.S.V.P." is a must listen as is "Caravan of Dreams".) Finally I came to the conclusion that it was Fripp's diversity as a producer that really supports this. Think of it - Peter Gabriel, Daryl Hall, Peter Hammill/Van Der Graff, Centipede, The Roches, Matching Mole, etc., etc., etc. This diversity shows Fripp's intention to bring out the artists, not cover them up with his own sound. I almost think Fripp would be more likely to approach a project if it represented something new to him. So, yeah, this could work. BTW, for those who are unaware, Richard Sinclair will being doing a private tour in the fall. For any of you who might be interested in hosting one of these great performances, just e-mail me at OtherRoad at aol dot com Gary Davis [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:09:49 -0400 From: TRAPDOOR1 at aol dot com Subject: Soundscapes tour update Interstellar Discs/Rockslide, Inc. Office: (610) 776-7766 Fax: (610) 821-3539 E-Mail: Trapdoor1 at aol dot com ROBERT FRIPP: SOLO SOUNDSCAPES w/ THE CALIFORNIA GUITAR TRIO & LOS GAUCHOS ALEMANES TOUR UPDATE: Sept. 1st & 2nd: Muhlenberg College, Allentown, PA USA -CONFIRMED Ticket info: Tickets: $18.00 ON SALE NOW. Available thru Muhlenberg's Radio Station WMUH . Call (610) 821-3239. Summer box office hours are Monday thru Friday10AM thru 2PM EDT. This is a small, intimate theatre (350 seats). There are good seats still available, & you can use your credit card. Sept. 3rd: The California Guitar Trio (only) will be performing at an outdoor festival in Rockford, Illinois, at. 9:45PM. CONFIRMED - Directions pending. Sept. 5th: Club Bene Rt. 35, South Amboy, New Jersey. -CONFIRMED Tickets: $15.00 ON SALE NOW. Reservations can be made by calling Club Bene - (908) 727-3000 Sept. 6th: Gaston Hall at Georgetown University 37th & O Sts. NW Washington, DC -CONFIRMED Ticket info: On sale Thurs. August 10th, 10AM, general admission available thru Ticketmaster. The cost is $20.00, but don't forget the service charge, which will vary in the Washington/Baltimore area between $3.50 and $4.75 Sept. 7th: In-store performance in Manhattan, possibly J&R Musicworld. CONFIRMED - starting sometime between 12:30-1:30 PM. Sept. 8th & 9th: Washington Square Church, NYC, NY USA -CONFIRMED. Ticket info: Tickets go on sale August 12, 1995 at: Downtown Music Gallery 211 E. 5th Street New York, NY (212)-473-0043 e-mail - dmg at panix dot com Downtown's hours are: Sun - Thur: 12pm - 10pm. Fri & Sat: 12pm-12am Tickets may NOT be ordered over the internet. At this time tickets are not available by phone. This may change. Tickets are $22.00 each and there is a 4 ticket limit per person. Terms of sale are CASH ONLY. No checks, No credit cards. Show times are 7:00 and 9:30 with doors opening 1/2 hour before. The Sept. 4th show will be either at the University of Delaware in Newark DE, or a music school in Wilmington,DE. Confirmation pending. This schedule will be updated in Elephant Talk weekly, or as confirmations come in. Best, -MT [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 21:24:26 +0400 From: reiwampa at ccs dot internet dot ve (Julio d'Escrivan) Subject: Dinosaur Kids >baumgart at pointloma dot com (Jim Baumgart) writes... > >> Hi everyone at ET. Can anybody top this? Imagine my surprise (and >> pleasure) to come home from work and find my 4 year-old daughter quietly >> playing with blocks in the playroom, while singing to herself "I'mmmm a >> DINOSAUR...." > My three girls (5,4 &3 yrs old) specifically request me to play Dinosaur whenever they get in the car and they love singing along to the choruses. The 5 year old blew me away last week when I played her Elephant Talk live from the Dinosaur CD single, and as we listened to the guitar solo, (I assume it is played by RF), She started singing the accompaniment riff which is carried by other gtr, sticks and drums ! Julio. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 14:34:53 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: Re: Fripp Thompson >The Fripp-Thompson connection probably goes back quite a ways, One of Peter >Gabriel's early solo efforts included Fripp, and Sandy Denny (Fairport >convention) in supporting roles. Let's take it back still further... The original Fairpoort vocalist, Judy Dyble, was briefly a member of Giles Giles and Fripp. Any advance on that? :) >I'd love to be a fly on the wall when (if ever) Frip, Thompson, Belew >(three of my favorite guitarists), CGT (three of my other favorite >guitarists), and the Roches jam. According to news on the XTC list, there was recently a Gunn, Belew, Andy Partridge jam. Now THAT would've been something! >The first german-singing record of PG was his 3.Record ("EIN DEUTSCHES >ALBUM") and the songs are the same as on the english release [...] Both >records had german lyrics and different mixes to their english versions. Note particularly that the African chant/song that surrounds Biko is different song on the German album. >Keep cool (`coz it's damn hot up here in the north, like now, it's f...in >30 degrees cel. in the shade, puh...) :( A couple of weeks ago, we had the deepest snows in living memory... James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz / steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]