From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun Aug 6 11:36:33 1995 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:40:20 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #212 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 212, Friday, 4 August 1995 Today's Topics: stanley warner theatre show discrepancy ..saw new k.c. "import".. New (old) songs for fall tour? DISCOG: CAMILLA'S little SECRET Original KC line-up reunion rumour circa 1994 No Fripp in this hive "Experimental" Belew 4 year old crimso Thrak Tour recordings to trade... ET re.Unthinking idolatry of Fripp & Crimson Great Fripp Solos Re: Sacred Songs Re: Fripp/Thompson, Crimson/Roches Concert Video? Fripp and Musical Cycles in general Covers Crimson Covers Wish List Re: #1(6) Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 Re: #1(6) Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 Crimson Material [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ARCHIVES: The ET archives are: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Toby Subject: oops! Hi, my apologies to everyone for the cockup in the last ET (#211) which meant that a large junk of #210 was included in it. Good trick, eh? I'm not sure how I managed that! :-) And don't forget that the RockSlides King Crimson Screensaver competition is open all August. Check it out at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/rockslides/contest.html. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:44:44 -0400 From: goneal at freenet dot vcu dot edu (Gene O'Neal) Subject: stanley warner theatre show discrepancy well how can i start on something that shocked me to find out i had the distinct impression that the show in question on the "the great deceiver " live box set was a complete show..i know that not every show on the set..was not complete shows...but the S.W.T. show was pratically a full cd by itself. and i know why...IMHO its from King Biscuit Flower Hour (conert series in USA) because i have a show of the same venue but unfortunately it was only half of the radio show (24 min) BUT the kick in the butt is the fact "lament" is on there and not on the box set..AND the mix is totally different...well i might be exaggerating but on the keyboard (not mellotron) parts he is not distinguishable on the box set but on the radio mix he is in the left channel and Fripp just as upfront on the right..i know radio mixes are for the radio so everybody could hear most of the details and sometimes it does sound "tight" not dynamic but i still scatching why is he sounded "turned down" on the box set? I know Fripp felt that the way k.c. was for going more "heavier" tunes and David Cross didn't really fit in ...for a lack of better phrasing that is...but at the same time King Buscuit also messed up the announcer said that the show is at the S.T.W. 1975 (???!!!) i looked at the tour dates and k.c. was dead in '74 so obviously its the show on the box set...along with listening to them closely together and picking up subtlies of course..(wheh) well i spoke my peace..any comments?..no i'm not entirely offering to make copies unless i'm up to it...it doesn't suprise me that the show is from King Buscuit because i have a live cd's here from other bands and the sources are from King Buscuit or Westwood One..but i guess its because they are readily available and not buried in the personal vaults.. please forgive me for being longwinded about this..and maybe wasting the space -- this Gene (Cinder) O'Neal night king crimson goneal at freenet dot vcu dot edu wounds loving old and sometimes new time progressive and alternative music [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:00:11 -0400 From: goneal at freenet dot vcu dot edu (Gene O'Neal) Subject: ..saw new k.c. "import".. the cd in question is called "Fracture" its on Gold Standard its recorded at NYC's Felt Forum 5/1/74 i have it on order) but i forgot about the other one - its a 2cd called "vroom" yes just like the ep recorded at the Royal Albert Hall show 5/17/95 the "74 show is a nice audience recording the '95 show is a top notch digital audience recording these were posted in the ICE newsletter ..i have not seen them in person yet nor i do not have any track listing yet either -- this Gene (Cinder) O'Neal night king crimson goneal at freenet dot vcu dot edu wounds loving old and sometimes new time progressive and alternative music [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 3 Aug 1995 13:04:40 -0500 From: "Jessup, Andrew" Subject: New (old) songs for fall tour? Hi, all -- I noticed this interesting bit of info in the transcript from the "Club Wired" interview (ET 204). Seeing as nobody else has brought it up (I suspect not a lot of people plowed through the whole thing ;-), I thought it was worth repeating: > [AMPHITHEATER] mblakele asks: Why so few songs from Beat or ToaPP on > this tour? > [AMPHITHEATER] guestspeaker/King Crimson: We are adding songs from > Beat and 3 of a p.p. on the next leg of touring. This leads to a couple of interesting questions: Which songs are they going to add, and, since they're probably not going to be making the sets longer :-P, which songs are going to be replaced? My guess at the added songs would be: Sleepless, Sartori in Tangiers, 3 of a P.P., and Waiting Man, in about that order of likelihood. As far as what gets bumped -- my theory is that they have the setlist divided by category: Thrak songs, 80's songs, 70's songs. I don't think they'll drop any of the Thrak material (it is the album they're theoretically promoting, after all) unless they've got some brand new stuff they want to play in (which would be cool). So, my guess is that these songs would be introduced at the expense of Elephant Talk, Frame by Frame, and Indiscipline (Matte Kudesai and Heartbeat already seem to be sharing a slot on the setlist). I could live with this (easy for me to say, having seen one of the first-leg shows ;-) ; I could see Sleepless working just fine in the end-of-set spot, particularly if they're willing to cut loose at the end of it. Discussion/dissention, anyone? What I'd really love to hear, though, if I could have one call in the set, would be Fracture in place of LTIA 2. I could die a happy man, hearing Red and Fracture in the same show. (If Starless popped up, I would probably keel over on the spot, but since Adrian hasn't sung any Crimson lyrics except his own, I think I'm safe :-) And, while we're on the subject of the fall tour -- someone mentioned the possibility of a show in Raleigh, NC, at Walnut Creek Amphitheater. While I really, really hope there's a show in Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, I doubt Walnut Creek will be the place; they weren't playing any venues that size on the first leg of the tour, and it can get a bit cold outdoors at night in November ;-). Memorial Auditorium in Raliegh (where the symphony plays) would seem to be the best/most comfortable choice, although the Civic Center, or Page Aud. at Duke, or Memorial Hall at UNC would probably work fine. Hopefully we'll know something in the next 4-6 weeks. cheers, --Andrew [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:18:02 +0200 (DFT) From: "C. Kazzer Anglistik" Subject: DISCOG: CAMILLA'S little SECRET Hi, everybody, Today I received a very friendly letter from & talked to Toby Richards of S&R Cressidia - also a member of CAMILLA'S little SECRET. About the single TANTALIZING EYES (SNR 212) Toby wrote (my typos): "The record was released as a limited edition 12" vinyl in the UK and Ireland only during the early part of last year. The record contains several versions hidden within the grooves including solos by _Robert Fripp_. The original intention was to press 10,000 but the pressing was halted at a little over 5000. We do however have some stocks left...." So all those who have also been hunting around for this one, please contact these people (they're very friendly & helpfull:) : this is the up-to-date adress! S&R CRESSIDIA DREWITT HOUSE 865 RINGWOOD ROAD BOURNEMOUTH BH11 8LW GREAT BRITAIN. The purchase price by mail-order is currently L 7.59 (Sterling) incl. P&P (I suppose thats for Europe). Toby also mentioned that at present S&R CRESSIDIA cannot accept Credit Cards as the amount would just be too small. Also they are hoping to be on-line soon, so we may be up for some direct info from them in the future. So much for now. Claas BTW.: I have no association with...whatsoever... bla, bla, bla, etc. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Kirkdorffer Date: 3 Aug 95 14:46:32 EDT Subject: Original KC line-up reunion rumour circa 1994 I remember hearing a rumour a year or two ago about a re-union of original members of King Crimson (Giles McDonald, Lake etc...). Did anybody else hear that rumour? I guess this didn't happen, and I seem to understand that Fripp and Lake have "differences," but was there ever a re-union intention? d. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:04:03 -0700 From: tntmusic at halcyon dot com (Kevin J. O'Conner d.b.a. Tinty Music) Subject: No Fripp in this hive >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:37:42 -0500 >From: stagda at sys1 dot ic dot ncs dot com (David Stagner) >Subject: Men, mice, Fripp, and Torn > >This is a followup to Rune Johnsrud's post about David Torn, and the >similarities between him and Fripp. I think, Rune, that you'll find Torn >and Fripp even closer than you thought. [snip] >Around the same time, both Torn and Fripp played on David Sylvian's >"Secrets of the Beehive", and Torn held the touring guitar chair later >occupied by Fripp. Fripp does not appear on Secrets of the Beehive. Kevin Kevin J. O'Conner d.b.a. Tinty Music P.O. Box 85363 Seattle, WA 98145-1363 vox: (206) 632-9369 fax/modem: (206) 545-2868 e-mail: tntmusic at halcyon dot com zzs32874 at pcvan dot or dot jp. http://www.halcyon.com/tntmusic/welcome.htm http://www.artistaccess.com/cdaudio/tinty/tinty.htm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: sbienkow at acs dot bu dot edu Subject: "Experimental" Belew Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 16:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Word has it that Belew's next solo project, "Guitar as Orchestra," will be Belew playing a midi-ed up guitar to make orchestral sounds. Some folks out there seem quite excited about this. Why? I don't understand why a _guitarist_ pretending to be an orchestra should arouse any more excitement than a _keyboardist_ doing so--to me, this sounds boring and tired. I appreciate a lot of Belew's solo work to date, and I find his playing and composing interesting and unique and at times experimental--qualities which don't seem as if they would apply in the case of this new album. I guess we should all just wait and hear -- I was just curious what the fuss was about. Am I missing something? --- Justin Weinberg sbienkow at bu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 13:11:38 -0700 From: baumgart at pointloma dot com (Jim Baumgart) Subject: 4 year old crimso Hi everyone at ET. Can anybody top this? Imagine my surprise (and pleasure) to come home from work and find my 4 year-old daughter quietly playing with blocks in the playroom, while singing to herself "I'mmmm a DINOSAUR...." Next thing you know she'll be singing "Sex, sleep, eat, drink, dream...." for her kindergarten class!!!! -Jimmy Baumgart [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 14:00:07 -0700 From: tcona at ix dot netcom dot com (Anthony J. Cona,Jr.) Subject: Thrak Tour recordings to trade... I have several Crimson Thrak tour recordings to trade.I currently have: Boston,Toronto,Montreal,Buffalo,New York,Washington DC,Cleveland, Kalamazoo,San Diego,London,Buenos Aires.I'm looking to trade for other recordings from this same tour.I'm especially looking for more wesr coast shows.I will only trade for Crimson shows from this tour.I also will not sell these recordings(I don't believe in selling these kind of things),so don't bother to ask.I beleive that recordings like these are for fans of the band to trade among themselves.I also have video from New York and San Diego to trade for other videos from the tour(if there are any others around)Don't ask me to sell you those either,I won't. If you have audio or video from the tour you want to trade contact me via E-Mail. CRIMSON RULES!!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:07:08 -0600 From: Paul Martz Subject: ET re.Unthinking idolatry of Fripp & Crimson From: suture at portal dot ca (Mark Mushet) > After perusing the Elephant talk newsletter and web site it became quite > clear to me that there is a great deal of unthinking idolatry of Robert > Fripp and King Crimson out there. I prefer the term "brand loyalty". Not only is it the correct term >from a marketing perspective, but it's a nice pun too. -paul [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Ewing Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:21:36 -0600 Subject: Great Fripp Solos John Ott writes: > I vote for "I'll Come Running" from Brian Eno's "Another Green World" > It's is not the most technically difficult, but it soars and makes a perfect > bridge to the fade-out chorus. I think that it fits RF's definition of true. > And it catches the mode of the song and lifts it. In fact I'm going ot go > home and put it on. Don't forget the beautiful solo on "St. Elmo's Fire" (also on Eno's magnificent "Another Green World"). *************************************************************************** David A. Ewing Interleaf - Boulder Lab. dewing at avalanche dot com Boulder, Colorado *************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:31:15 -0400 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Re: Sacred Songs In a message dated 95-08-03 16:14:02 EDT, you write: >I'm less clear on this one, but contractual problems reduced Daryl Hall's >contributions to Exposure, resulting in Peter Hammill's vocals on "You burn >me up I'm a cigarette", etc. Hall's vocals have been restored on the >Definitive Edition CD reissue. > >Kevin I'm not quite sure what your referring to here, Kevin. On my original vinyl copy it is most definitely Daryl Hall singing "You Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette." Perhaps you're thinking of "Chicago" for which Hall is credited as co-composer, but it is definitely Peter Hammill singing that song. I don't have the definitive CD reissue. Were Hall's vocal's restored on "Chicago"? On anything else? Gary [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:31:17 -0400 From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Re: Fripp/Thompson, Crimson/Roches Although the Richard Thompson mailing list seemed to think that Robert Fripp was the worst choice for producer for a Richard Thompson album, one of our ET readers put up a valiant defense as witnessed in the last issue. However, one important thing he missed in his defense is Robert's incredible production work for the Roche's! Give a listen to _The Roches_ and _Keep On Doing_ and you will realize that not only is a Fripp produced Thompson album a credible idea, but the results would be astounding. And anyone familiar with either of the French, Frith, Kaiser & Thompson albums would have to admit that Fripp & Thompson is just not that far fetched. Gary [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:22:14 -0400 From: ranger at haven dot ios dot com Subject: Concert Video? Since I haven't read any reader comments about (legal) video camera set-ups during the recent concert series, I frankly doubt it will be the case, but... ..is there any chance of Crimson releasing a live video performance any time soon? Greg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Fripp and Musical Cycles in general Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 12:13:31 +0930 From: Francis Vaughan MARKCH at midd dot cc dot middlebury dot edu (murkie) wrote: On RF's predicion of another musical cycle: > RF: No idea, other than: when it appears, it will be quite new, and we'll > say "Where did that come from," and then, immediately as it's appeared, > we'll say, "Well, that was obvious, it had to happen like that." ... > 1991 proved to be the year that grunge broke with the release of Nivanna's > Nevermind abruptly altering the face of music industry pidgeon-holing as we > knew it. > Ya think RF is onto something? This reminds me of a similar but much older prediction in a similar vein. Many many years ago on an Australian musical program (called "Countdown", the history, influence and politics of which whole volumes could be written) an interview with a couple of the minor members of Supertramp was aired. This would have been about 1974/5. Exactly the same semtiment was expressed, then. A new "don't know what it will be but it will be big and new." Soon afterwards we had punk. This is really to indicate that the notion of such cycles actually has a deep rooted following in much of the musical community. However, and similarly to Grunge, the seeds of Punk were already sown and the underground roots flourishing well before 1977. To belive that punk started with the Sex Pistols is both naive and years late. The influence of Iggy and the Stooges, MC5, Radio Birdman (for the Australian readers) and many others cannot be ignored. They set in place much of the ethos well before. So too for grunge, the Seattle sound had been honed for a long time, and the work of other bands of the genre goes back into the mid '80s. Just look at how long Sonic Youth has been around. I would argue against these cycles anyway. For instance Metal in all its guises is missing from the list, its genesis being both long and evolutionary, and as many have remarked owing not a small amount to the roots cultivated by early 70's era Crimson. How about Rap? Dance orriented music in all its many faceted incarnations? Worse the predominance, not of new music of our radios, but a plethora of "Best of the 50's 60's and 70's" programming. Abba was crap then and is crap now. One of the best ways to judge the influence of new musical styles upon popular culture is to listen to the soundtracks to TV adverts. The direct use of songs, or more often the borrowing of ideas and lyric lines is one aspcet, but also listen to the sounds, riffs and ethos of the music. It is astounding now how quickly a new music now becomes absorbed into mainstream musical conciousness. Also really worrying some of the rubbish that continues to pervade. I would argue that the cycles in promenence are more a symptom of boredom and generational change that simply picks up one of any number of simmering existing sub-mass market styles. To reach mass market success relys far more upon fitting with the sociology of 14 year olds looking for a new tribal allegance than musical factors. That so many musical styles contine to evolve must give us considerable heart, even if many never see the light of commercial success. The existance and readership of this list and its bretheren are also great cause for hope. Francis Vaughan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:11:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hank w. Wright" Subject: Covers Here are a few more KC covers..I hope that no one mentioned these already: "21st Century Schizoid Man" & "In The Court Of The Crimson King" On the new King Biscut Flower Hour presents Greg Lake in concert (if you don't have this album yet..BUY IT! It's very good!) "Red" on Wood's "Against The Grain" metal group fronted by hard rock violin pioneer Mark Wood. Interesting, but not as good as the original. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:59:19 -0400 From: artc at tiac dot net (Art Cohen) Subject: Crimson Covers Wish List : : But, all are eager to continue with the positive energy they've created. And : the tape recorder still has 20 minutes left on the reel... Adrian says, "Hey, : let's do a cover of a song." And Tony replies, "What do you think the readers : of ET would like to hear us play?" Robert dials into Toby's WWW Server and : takes a quick poll of those actively on-line.. : : My vote: Peter Gunn and/or James Bond themes (I think KC would be a "killer" : spy-jazz rock band) : : And your vote? "Peaches en Regalia" by Frank Zappa (off the top of my head) --Art -- Boston Ska home page http://www.tiac.net/users/artc/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 05:28:32 -0400 From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Subject: Re: #1(6) Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:13:24 -0700 > From: tntmusic at halcyon dot com > (Kevin J. O'Conner d.b.a. Tinty Music) > Subject: Sacred Songs > > ...contractual problems reduced Daryl Hall's contributions to > Exposure, resulting in Peter Hammill's vocals on "You burn me > up I'm a cigarette", etc. Hall's vocals have been restored on > the Definitive Edition CD reissue. Hall sang "You Burn Me Up..." on the original issue, as well as "North Star." Hammill sings "Disengage," "Chicago" and "I May Not Have..." (with Terre Roche). As Hall cowrote "Chicago" and "Mary" (which features Terre Roche), it seems that those are most likely to be the tracks on which he was replaced. I haven't heard the Definitive Edition - which songs does Hall sing on it? Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 05:34:47 -0400 From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Subject: Re: #1(6) Elephant-talk digest v95 #211 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:37:42 -0500 > From: stagda at sys1 dot ic dot ncs dot com (David Stagner) > Subject: Men, mice, Fripp, and Torn > > both Torn and Fripp played on David Sylvian's "Secrets of the > Beehive," and Torn held the touring guitar chair later occupied > by Fripp. Fripp is not on _Secrets of the Beehive_. He does play on _Gone to Earth_ and _Alchemy_ (as well as the Fripp/Sylvian albums), which do not feature Torn. AFAIK, Fripp did not play with Sylvian on the SotB tour, either. Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 05:46:01 -0700 From: cwest at main dot citynet dot net (Brad Diller) Subject: CRIMSON MATERIAL I'm new on the net and this may be old news so if it is forgive me. While brousing through an on-line CD store I found a large collection of Crimson, Fripp and Bruford goods. Access http://cdnow.com/#top and check it out. I've NOT purchased anything from this company so I can't report on their delivery or whether they have this material in stock, but I thought this might be of interest. Brad Diller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]