From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSat Jul 22 14:11:46 1995 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:49:18 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #209 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 209, Friday, 21 July 1995 Today's Topics: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 CD prices (aka The Biz) Fripp and Daryl Hall (Sacred Songs?) Bruford: "Go Between" pssst...looking to trade...ahem...you know... 3ofaP2 transcription USA on CD THRAK'95 US, Rock Venues - An Observation RE: Time for a KC Fiction Book? "Famous" Fripp Fan Scary guitar stuff; Frippishness Soundscape Tour update Old footage/Wetton/criticism/PG II FBF missing the family tree Good response Re: Elephant Talk #208 Bruford and Cymbals Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 Re: Hawkwind Re: Elephant Talk #208 Soundscape description John Wetton Hawkwind and "the unknown" John Clark Reply to some points in Newsletter#208 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 Aisle Three CD Damage ET: Fripp in the shadows: case closed fractals/pictures Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 More on Bruford... RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 Crossing the Big Picture... Levin & Marotta Records, First-pressings, CDs Re: Richard and Beau; Meeting KC members dstortion, barking, comix, etc. Video Rembrandts [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ET on the Web, and changing all the time: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:26:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 From: gregm at fa dot disney dot com Excitment, excitment, excitment. After listening to Chris Douridas' show on KCRW, NPR in Santa Monica,"Morning Becomes Eclectic". I rushed to the phone and ordered Tony Levin's first solo album, "World Diary" from his Papa Bear lable. AMAZING!!!!I WANT MORE!!! That's the review folks. It's nice to be listening in on a bunch of jams. This is real fly-on-the-wall material, mistakes et all. I am a sucker for this stuff being a stick jammer myself this stuff is inspiring. For those of you who 'ain't got this yet. While Tony was cruisin' around the planet with Peter Gabrial he took along an ADAT with him, plugged it into the wall, rang up a bunch of mates who were in the town they were visiting and jammed the bit out in hotel rooms, houses and Real World. Awesome. People on Tony's phone list: Shanker, Ayub Ogada, Brian Yamakoshi, Jerry Marotta, Bendik, Bill Bruford, Nexus, Levon Minassian and Manu Katche. Papa Bear Records: 1 800 688 2227 [ You can email them at PBearRec at aol dot com] See Ya -- Greg Maguire gregm at fa dot disney dot com (818) 544-2051 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:55:26 -0700 From: tntmusic at halcyon dot com (Kevin J. O'Conner dba Tinty Music) Subject: CD prices (aka The Biz) >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:45:25 -0400 >From: Khosatral at aol dot com >Subject: The Biz > >There have been a couple of mentions of the commerical aspects of the >latest KC outing that I thought merited some background. The upshot is >that it is good to keep things in per$pective. > >Take the average US price of a new CD, $16. Figure 30-35 percent of that >to the retailer (assuming no loss leaders); 25-30 percent to the record >company; 10-20 to the artist (which can be applied against advances); 10-15 >percent to the manufacturer; and 5-10 percent to the distributor. I imagine >the $25-30 CDs of Japan & Europe shake out similarly. I seem to remember seeing a breakdown of the price of a CD in a reliable publication (alas, I don't recall which one) within the last couple of years. I think it indicated that marketing & promotion accounted for somewhere between 30% and 40% of the price. I think substantially less than 10%-20% goes to the artist - I think it's very unlikely that even the likes of Michael Jackson gets as much as $3.20 per copy of each CD sold. In fact, I'd be surprised if the artist gets even $1, or if so-called superstar acts get more than $1.60. Kevin Kevin J. O'Conner d.b.a. Tinty Music P.O. Box 85363 Seattle, WA 98145-1363 vox: (206) 632-9369 fax/modem: (206) 545-2868 e-mail: tntmusic at halcyon dot com zzs32874 at pcvan dot or dot jp. http://www.halcyon.com/tntmusic/welcome.htm http://www.artistaccess.com/cdaudio/tinty/tinty.htm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:05:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael Dixon (COAS)" Subject: Fripp and Daryl Hall (Sacred Songs?) Hello all- I read this list fairly regularly and subscribe to the Digest version. Anyway, my query concerns a release in the early eighties of Daryl Hall (yes, he of Hall and Oates fame). Fripp played on it, and possibly produced. Anyone else heard this? Forgive me if this has been discussed recently- I have enough trouble keeping up with the Elvis C mailing list and can't read every post on this one. If I remember correctly, this wasn't a bad piece of work- done at around the same time that Fripp and Peter Gabriel worked on PG's second one. There may have even been a Gabriel song on it- I used to have the vinyl but it has been gone for years. Regards- Mike [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:02:44 -0600 (CST) From: Craig Branham Subject: Bruford: "Go Between" Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO Speaking of Bill Bruford albums, Bruford cut an album with a classical percussion ensemble (from Amsterdam) called, I think, "Go Between," which I didn't buy when I saw it on the shelves in 87. Only a month later I returned to pick it up and it had sold out and wasn't reordered. A couple years later, after the demise of E.G., I tried to order it and noticed that Caroline hadn't reissued it with Bruford's other E.G. titles. Does anyone know what happened to this recording and/or if there is even a remote chance of acquiring it? Craig Branham [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:27:31 -0400 From: lbh2 at cornell dot edu (Bruce Higgins) Subject: pssst...looking to trade...ahem...you know... eavesdroppings and other documentation of the '95 tour. I have one such item, would like more... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~L. Bruce Higgins lbh2 at cornell dot edu Well, I got hip, got wet, with the jet set But they were flying too high to see my point of view... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Eric Dongu" Organization: Indiana University Northwest Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:59:59 CST Subject: 3ofaP2 transcription All KC lovin' guitarists and bassists should take a look at the August '95 edition of _Guitar_ magazine. There is a complete transcription of both guitar parts _and_ the bass parts for the song Three of a Perfect Pair. I haven't had a chance to try out the GTR parts yet, but they appear at first glance to be pretty accurate. The transcriptions are on staves as well as in tablature format, so they should be accessible to any level of reading ability. I'm not a regular reader of this publication, but it seems that the transcription section is a regular feature. Perhaps someone else can post the location of other KC tunes that have been transcribed in _Guitar_ or any other mag. BTW, there was also an article in this issue called something like *Guitar Sex Toys*. Hmmm, sounds a bit like Appliantology. Whrrrrrr, oh, whrrrrrr, oh, Vroooooooom, THRAK! Oh! yes! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:08:32 -0400 From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) Subject: USA on CD hopefully this will be my last posting on the Subject. I went down to Desert Island Yesterday and asked to see his catalog, well the guy wouldn't let me look at it so i asked him if USA was available onC CD. According to him it wasn't. Not through EG records anyway. He said it may have been released under another label and if it was it might be in a different catalog. He also stated that it he was "very sure" that USA is available via bootleg in the $20 and up range. I asked him to look into it for me. So basically my little "trip" to the CD shop has solved nothing. Does anyone know of a label that would release KC material other than Discipline/EG? well it's goodbye. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Richard Mascarini Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 16:22:40 -700 Subject: THRAK'95 US, Rock Venues - An Observation Hello, this is my first posting to ET and I've just gained access to the "net" (all in the same week no less!), so please forgive me as I make my way through this techno ....... I have been attending rock shows in the US for many years, and have seen many KC shows, my first being 12.11.71 in Phila. PA, USA. This past June I had the good fortune to see the Boston (6.2.95) and the Cincinnati (6.9.95) shows. Both performances were musically moving events for me. But over the years as rock shows became mainstream, commercial, processed evens, the place where said events took place improved from converted warehouses, airplane hanger type sport arenas to smaller more theater like venues or nice outdoor performance spaces. While KC in past tours have in fact presented music in a wide variety of concert halls, THRAK'95 US made a point of utilizing 3000 seat classic style theaters. My take on KC's tactic for selecting the type of halls during this tour was to enable contact between performer and audience, something only smaller venues could provide. A place where performer and audience could enter a relationship with music as conduit. A relaxed/ing space for everyone. In a word: intimate. Now for me, Boston held this hope. The Orphieum is a classic 3000 seater noted for good sound and as I heard one concert goer exclaim, "No seat is a bad seat here!" Too bad this was not my experience in Boston. The Orphieum was in need of major repairs, the seating was less than adequate for any 20TH century human (I would like to see Tony Levin or Pat Mastelotto try sitting in the balcony - I'm not as large in stature as either one of them!) The air quality was poor, stale and stagnate (lets not even mention the ciggs or pot smoke which only made it more ridicules - but I did.) If fire broke out I think lives would have been lost. Poor wiring, lack of smoke detectors and in- adequate access to exits surely would have added to an already confused situation. The Taft Theater in Cincinnati was slightly better than Boston, but just. Again, a 3000 seat hall of the classic variety. To say that performer and audience could enter into a mutual harmony with music at either of the two loactions I just mentioned would have been extremely limited. But strangely enough it did happen to me at both shows, but just a glimpse! During the performance of THRAK in Boston, I couldn't contain my laughter from the sheer rush of hearing 117 guitars almost hitting the same chord at the same time! What truly moving experience and one I will never forget. The other, again during THRAK, this time in Cincinnati, during the bridge section. Very different from Boston yet very uplifting! More open, improvised and playful between all of the players. KC are still the best in the clenches. My point in all of this (and I did ask for your forgiveness up front) is that over the years, attending performances not only became the event, as performance spaces improved and shows became mainstream, fewer moments of entering that special place with performer and music can be had. KC over the years may not not have had control over the place of presentation, but hope by myself during this tour was, things "they are a-changin'." Still powerful, still alive, and still able to deliver! KC, from my first show through today, remains consistent! A loyal fan, Richard Mascarini, Saratoga NY, USA [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Kirby, John E (Jay)" Subject: RE: Time for a KC Fiction Book? Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 16:14:00 CDT "Chris King" said: > Quite a number of years ago, I occasionally listened to the band Hawkwind, > mostly because they were a lot of fun to listen to. Someone at the time > gave me a book written by Hawkwind's lyricist--can't remember the name but > he was a Pete Sinfield-like dreamer--that was science fiction and had the > Hawkwind line-up as the protagonists. I think the book your talking about is actually written by Sci-fi writer Michael Moorcock (who has on occasion contributed lyrics to Hawkwind and even provided voice on a couple of tracks on "Warrior on the Edge of Time" and was something of a Hawkwind groupie). It's been a long time since I read it, but I think it was called "Hawklords". ..Jay Kirby (jekirby at ingr dot com) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Lawrence Raniere Subject: "Famous" Fripp Fan Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 17:48:33 EDT Hello, everybody. This is my first posting to this most necessary of sites. I wanted to relate an odd encounter I had last night. Some may say a lame encounter, but here goes, never-the-less. I was in a small CD store in Greenwich Village NYC last night, thumbing through the King Crimson section. I was examining a bootleg CD of Crimson playing in Amsterdam in 1973, when out of the corner of my eye I spied a couple approaching. The woman (a striking blonde) said "Oh look, honey, King Crimson!" When I looked up she was smiling, and I started to say "Are you a King Crimson fan?", but then I noticed that her "honey" was the comedian David Brenner! I reached out and shook his hand, and mentioned that I had seen him while in attendance to an "Arsenio Hall Show" taping (I had gotten free tickets while on a business trip to LA). He smiled and said thanks, and went about his business of looking through some other bin. I eventually asked him if he was a King Crimson fan, to which he said "yes". I'm pretty sure that he lives in NYC, so maybe they caught the June shows at Town Hall (I did). On the ET I just received today, somebody mentioned (paraphrased) that "to their knowledge Fripp had never strayed more than a few inches from his stool". I had heard this before, and if he does stray, it is only for a brief moment. Well, unless it is just my over-zealous memory, I saw Fripp off of his stool for a considerable period during the 1981 (I believe) Discipline tour in NYC at (I think) The Savoy. It was my first Crimson show (I've seen every tour since). They played basically the whole Discipline album, some songs from the yet-unreleased Beat, Red, and LTIA Pt 2. The boys were juiced up that evening, full of some incredible energy, as if the years of waiting were coming out in an explosion. However, as I had privately predicted, obviously not having heard any post-Discipline-release concert, they played Indiscipline as their closer during the regular portion of the show (which since then is common). During Fripp's thrashing guitar solo in the middle of the song, he got off of his stool for virtually the entire solo, actually gyrating a bit while he seemed to be fulfilling for himself the highest Crimsoid potential that he could generate. The audience was agog at this display of raw skill, power and controlled frenzy, amplified by the obvious pleasure of Mr. Fripp, as he seemed to be channeling from some higher level. Not to mention the fact that he had gotten off of his stool. RF, as well as the rest of the gang, was in rare form that night. There has also been some discussion of "could you imagine KC without Fripp?" in some recent ETs. While that is a scary thought, I believe that Bruford is equally as indispensible as Fripp. Bruford is a drumming android, always maximizing the available rhythmic benefits, rarely overplaying his parts. I believe one of the main differences (for me) between a band like Sylvian & Fripp (which is very good bordering on great) and King Crimson (which is great bordering on god-like) is Bill Bruford, and the feeling of effortless symbiosis he brings to the band's rhythm section. Of course, all of KC's members are indispensible in their own ways. I feel, though, that Bruford's contribution is often not appreciated as rabidly as it could be. I rarely see any posts overtly extolling his virtues, unlike some of the other band members. - LR [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Jul 95 17:45:56 EDT From: Jim Sciarra <73163 dot 3567 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Scary guitar stuff; Frippishness In the last issue of ET, j.serdy wrote: "now I like frippish stuff. pursuit of listening for fripp links me to eno and t.heads (I zimbra) and pointed me in the direction of such things as phillip glass and steve reich. I haven't heard any sylvian. It's all that repetitive nonesense, over and over, polyrythms, mathematical stuff. but then fripp likes to crank out that scary guitar stuff so there's these two things to frippishness - noise and composure. there's more to frippishness but it becomes needlessly heirarchial for this ramble" If it's Fripp's "scary guitar stuff" you're looking for, you owe it to yourself to check out his work with Sylvian (both "Gone To Earth" and "The First Day"). Both albums have riffs that are positively frightening. Also, in my opinion, some of Fripp's best guitar work can be found on the David Bowie album "Scary Monsters" (particularly the solos in "Teenage Wildlife" and "Up the Hill Backwards"). By the way, this is my first post. I have been getting Elephant Talk for a couple of weeks now, and I must say it is heartening to see that there are so many people out there into the Fripp/Crimson thing. Sometimes I feel so alone in my musical tastes. ----------------------------- Jim Sciarra 73163 dot 3567 at compuserve dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 19:10:26 -0400 From: TRAPDOOR1 at aol dot com Subject: Soundscape Tour update Sept. 1st & 2nd: Muhlenberg College, Allentown, PA USA -CONFIRMED Ticket info: after August 1st call (610) 821-3239. Tickets will be available thru Muhlenberg College. Sept. 6th: Gaston Hall at Georgetown University 37th & O NW Washington, DC -CONFIRMED Ticket info: Available thru Ticketmaster. Watch this board for sale date. Sept. 8th & 9th: Washington Square Church, NYC, NY USA -CONFIRMED. Watch Village Voice week of August 6th for ticket outlet info. Tentative sale date is Saturday August 12th. New Jersey will likely happen Sept. 4th or 5th. Stay tuned. This schedule will be updated in Elephant Talk weekly, or as confirmations come in. Best, -MT [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Jul 95 19:54:02 EDT From: "Neil J. Cavanagh" <76111 dot 3636 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Old footage/Wetton/criticism/PG II Tritter at cris dot com wrote: >Oh...One more thing...a few Et's ago someone had mentioned the video of >Yesyears and and the footage of KC. I have THAT video...about twenty >minutes...I know it played Easy Money...then an extended version of Lament >afterwords...but I dont remember if there was anything in front of E.M. I >will take a look and get back to you....I also have the 70's video of >Lark's Tongue part II....that was worth the video itself...It appears to be >live...and very good. I believe you'll find that that footage consists of Larks II, Easy Money, and an improv. Unfortunately no 'extended version of Lament,' for those who began foaming at the mouth at the idea. I believe the '70's video' you refer to is Larks I (w/Jamie Muir.) For those who are interested, Tower Records announced in their July New Releases flyer: John Wetton - Chasing the Dragon I'd like to follow with an excerpt from this week's Boston Globe, from an article heroically titled 'Rock n' roll 1955-1995 40 Years of hits and history...' "Art rock, as its evolved today, is one of those little embarassments many of us who once loved the genre would like kept a secret. Think of those Lovecraft characters whose lineage was nearly human and therefore had to be kept chained in the cellar. Wasn't always that way though. Early King Crimson, Yes, Genesis pioneered an extensive sonic palette, taking cues from everyone from Debussy to Stockhausen to Hendrix and formulating a challenging music that had room for improvisation, rhythmic intensity, and - at its best - spiritual expansiveness...[the writer goes on to slag Pink Floyd's the Wall until coming around to saying..] Of course, in the wake of punk rock - and the absence of new leaders - this genre sounds obsolete. Its last great hope may be the reincarnated (again!) King Crimson, but don't hold your breath waiting for Robert Fripp to deliver. He sneers at expectations." - Ted Drozdowski I would transcribe more of these prog rock critiques (you know the ones, that alternate phrases like 'magnificently powerful art' and 'flimsily constructed bloat' in references to our favorites) but I can only eat so much homogenized cheese at a time; otherwise I get sick to my stomach. Another item: On the original vinyl inside sleeve to Peter Gabriel II there is a great foreshadowing (pun intended.) Arranged throughout the lyric sheet are small square photos of the musicians' faces, followed by an assortment of square icons that represent the instruments they played. For example Tony Levin's photo (with hair and full beard!) is followed by simple renderings of an acoustic bass, an electric bass headstock and two open mouths indicating backing vocals. Well by a process of elimination and examination of the instruments that follow you can find where the Fripp photo should be. But there is only a black square... Unfortunately on the CD release it is grey, inconspicuous, and greatly lacking the original contrast. -NJC [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:05:23 -0400 (EDT) From: FISHBOY Subject: FBF missing the family tree Hello, I recently bought the Frame By Frame boxed set, which is of course fantastic. However, there is no King Crimson family tree found in it. I know what the thing looks like because I've seen it in a friend's copy, but I wanted my own key to the twisted history of KC. Has anyone else had this problem? Was the family tree only included in early pressings, or am I just very unlucky? I have the feeling I'm either going to have to try to replace FBF or settle for a photocopy. :( Thanks, Andy Acunzo aacunzo at ccmail dot sunysb dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:25:09 -0400 From: KristiP350 at aol dot com Subject: Good response Hello again, I wanted to share the following response I received from my post Crimson and women? in ET #205. With the author's permission, I have reproduced it here. I'll let the text speak for itself. "Before I knew that Adrian Belew, that wacky mastermind I had heard on Talking Heads' _Remain in Light," was involved in KC, a friend had lent me his new copy of _Discipline._ Twoi very sensual experiences awaited me: the hovering beauty of the tragedy (that is, something so sad it shouldn't be beautiful, but you just can't help treasuring this pathos) of "Matte Kudasai." I stared out the window and let the song wash over me, for the first time seeing through the eyes of my grandmother, who lived alone for 50 years among us, deaf and speaking only Greek, isolated from us all in a way that I never felt because her love and some strength of her character kept her sane in the house she hadn't left for years...she used to simply sit by the window afternoons and watch, and think, and say nothing. The song made me think of her. I never noticed the seagulls till a magazine mentioned Belew's sonic trickery; those sounds just seemed the perfect blend of crying and imaginatively flying through that open window.... And the "Sheltering Sky" musically expresses the feeling I had listening to this album that summer in rural Georgia, the oppressive heat that diminshed the ego to the simple rhythm of breathe in, breathe out. The chords drifted past like shadows of clouds across the blazing sun, too brief to relieve but I relished each one as it came and went. Wow. " I want to thank James for this response, and say "Wow," myself. Any typos found are mine and are not the intent of the author. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 11:00:13 JST From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (T. Ohsawa) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #208 My comments on Rob MacCoun's: > >Subject: Cymbal Ban > >I believe that Peter Gabriel actually deserves the credit for first >imposing the cymbal ban (on Jerry Marrotta and Phil Collins) during the >recording of the 1980 3rd peter gabriel album. (Fripp was a participant in >those sessions.) PG discussed this idea in numerous interviews at the >time. I mention this not so much to argue the historical details, but to >remind myself of how innovative and exciting pg's work was (for me at >least) circa 1978-1984. (I'm still a fan, but I must admit that neither So >nor Us did much for me.) I agree that PG's work were more exciting before So and Us time. The more successful you get, the less challening you become: this is common to all people around the world. We can't blame PG but we have to look into ourselves. Similar thing happened to Genesis after PG left them. Success brings more fans and money but it seems it's difficult to keep up with self-innovations. The only band that could do it and actually managed to do it for more than 25 years is King Crimson. After 200 years from now, their name will surely be appearing in music history. Thanks for your input and comment. It gave me to think again. Tom. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:26:58 -0400 From: KnKreutzer at aol dot com Subject: Bruford and Cymbals James Poulakos (ET v95 #208) brings up some interesting points regarding drummers and cymbals. The "indiscriminate and lazy approach most drummers take towards cymbals," though, seems to me a subset of the "indiscriminate and lazy approach" most drummers take toward drumming in general - it's not really a cymbal problem at all. The best jazz drummers, for example, use cymbals extremely prominently to "structure space," and they do it in a way that does not deprive other musicians of working room. By contrast, it's often the case that drummers will fill up inappropriate amounts of space using their entire kit, not merely the cymbals. The drum performances on Allan Holdsworth's solo albums, while technically formidable, more often than not seem plagued by this sort of unmusical busyness. The real advantage of depriving a drummer of cymbals, either partly or entirely, is that it forces the drummer to rethink the patterns into which he or she habitually falls while playing. Bruford - boxed in with restrictions imposed by Fripp and having to learn the intricacies of electronic drums, shut off from the riffs he might have played unthinkingly around the time of *Tornado* - made a giant musical leap forward during the 1980s Crimson years. For another drummer, restricting him or her to ONLY cymbals and, say, assorted percussion might have a similarly catalytic effect. Georges Perec did his best writing ringed round with mad self-imposed rules (his novel *La Disparition* was written without using the letter "e"). Keith Jarrett revived his musical energies playing "primitive" instruments with which he had limited experience (documented on *Spirits*). The effect of such restrictions, of such arbitrary disciplines, is to fortify the artist's awareness and attention. Or: "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end." Kenneth Kreutzer Kent, Ohio KnKreutzer at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:02:24 -0400 From: ai644 at detroit dot freenet dot org (Barry A. Lonik) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 TOUR REVIEW: DRIVE, GIG, SLEEP, DRIVE, GIG Just now recovering from the whirlwind tour of six (count 'em) King Crimson shows, the most numerous and far-reaching of my concert-going career. The overall verdict: astounding. I never dreamed when my dear brother dropped the needle on the opening chords of Schizoid Man in 1969 and irreparably altered a previously calm and peaceful childhood that I would be so fortunate as to undertake such an odyssey. Some thoughts on the 1995 return of the Prince of Darkness: THE SHOWS The Buffalo show was a fairly major disappointment. The band was not very tight, a result, I think, of having not played live in a week. The sound quality was marginal, with nasty echoes bouncing off the balcony's underside, and I sat far enough back that it was not possible to see who was playing, or what. I could not understand why two more people were added to the band, as it seemed that the four hold-overs could handle the material and not muddy things up so much. It was Fripp's first appearance in the middle back, after much cajoling from the other band members to have him be more visible. Reportedly the lighting manager was told that one light could be placed on him, but he was so afraid of the Wrath of Fripp that he opted against it. As a result, I joked during the show that "I remember seeing King Crimson when Robert Fripp was in the band." The Toronto show was a major improvement. Our seats were in the seventh row in a much more intimate setting, and I could SEE what the hell was going on. By the end of the show, I began to have a sense of what this band was all about. After having seen them five times in the '80s and seen the videos numerous times, it took me some getting used to this new lineup and the new music. It finally struck me that although some of the players are the same and they're playing some familiar tunes, THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT BAND. King Crimson had returned, but as is the nature of this beast, it had transformed once again and would take some getting used to. I wouldn't have it any other way. After taking some time off, the next gig was Cleveland, the only outdoor show of the tour. The result: downtown Cleveland is still in a shambles after the Crimson King devastated a once- thriving industrial center. All about us lay the crumbling remnants of a bygone era, most notably a steel girder railroad bridge, frozen, penetrating some ten stories into the starlit night. The band was in top form, the best of the six shows I saw on this tour, wailing, thrashing and banging, taking no prisoners on the road to oblivion. I could barely stand or even clap when it was over. Our impressions were confirmed by the grand master himself, who reportedly said on the bus back to the hotel that it was the best the band had ever sounded. Need I say anything more? Then, Ann Arbor, my place of residence, in the restored, standing-room-only confines of the Michigan Theater. The order of songs was different for this show, and I found the other much preferred, when an unlit Fripp's soundscapes mesmerized the crowd, followed by the clatter and clanging of the drum duet and a blistering THRAK, replete with improvisational madness...and Adrian on screwdriver! And all that just 20 minutes into the show. Now that's how to challenge an audience! The most notable moment was the already reported Big Fripp Mistake, coming in a verse early for his Elephant Talk solo. Boy, did the heads on stage turn! Tony in particular could barely contain himself, like NO ONE makes that bad of a flub. As they bowed, it was easily the heartiest I've ever seen Robert laugh. Kalamazoo was also a fine show, albeit with the lesser set order. Robert did not play his Elephant Talk solo; perhaps he was nervous?! Seeing the gig extended the Great King Crimson Relay, where either my brother or I have seen every show in Michigan since the beginning (him from '69-'74, me from '80 to date, with some '80s overlap). For Chicago they returned to the original set and devastated those in attendance, us included. And the six were over, just burned into memory. THE PLAYERS Trey is clearly a very talented musician, but I found him either not adequately featured in the mix or simply overpowered by Tony's "wake the dead" bass lines. He does a fine job of finding spaces to fill and doing it with interesting sounds and parts. When he was able to stretch outQduring the Stick duet and The Talking DrumQhis playing was most intriguing. I look forward to having him play a more prominent role with the band in the future. Adrian's playing was as good as always, but it was his voice that had matured as well as his stage presence. He seemed more confident in himself and in his role as front man for this behemoth of a band. His pounding, string-bending and fret antics are always fun and a welcome offset of some otherwise very serious gardening. Pat's playing was a pleasant surprise. I went in expecting a guy keeping time while Bill explored the far reaches of the Universe, but Pat's variety, creativity and ability were a substantial contributions. He can be an alarmingly powerful drummer and show a great deal of sensitivity. Another welcome addition. Bill Bruford is a joy to watch. He stretches so far in the context of King Crimson that it's painful to think of what his life would be like without it. While others in the band may appreciate the freedom Crimso provides, Bill absolutely thrives on it. No other outfit exists or can exist that offers as much, and Bill takes full advantage of it. I never tire of seeing him "play." Tony is the consummate musician, switching from Stick to upright bass (with bow!) to four-string electric, a virtuoso on all of them. He is such a powerful presence on stage, striking poses, effortlessly contributing fabulous parts and having a darn good time. His work was what caused the devastation in Cleveland as elsewhere, and forced me to call for "More bass!" though I knew he had the amps turned to 11. Tony is simply the best. Robert. Geez, what can I say about Robert? I remember one posting lamenting the lack of '80s stylish solos in this version of the band, and while I, too, miss that, I will say this: the man is an artist in the truest sense, and he is playing some different things now just as he played different things in the '80s. Not better or worse, just different, and as thoroughly mind-boggling as anything he's ever done. His picking unfortunately got overpowered by the other components, but when he wanted to make a statement he was not denied. Robert is a very complex person and a fascinating creature, as exemplified by his showing up in an Ann Arbor pub (sitting next to my fiancee!) with the TV remote, changing the picture to fuzz, flashing his Cheshire cat smirk and promptly departing. I wish he would understand that a lot us go in part to see him play, and that that's not such a bad thing. He is a visionary and a genius, and I hope things continue to go well with this band so that we may enjoy (i.e., be overwhelmed with amazement) with this band of his. SOME FINAL THOUGHTS The California Guitar Trio are a terrific opening act and should be seen, heard and supported. Both of their disks are great, although I like Invitation better. They're great guys as well. In Chicago, at our request, they played Apache off Invitation and did a little four-step dance that Robert taught them for the shows in London. The tune and shuffle were done by The Shadows lo those many years ago, and Fripp said that if they did it the house there would come down. And it did! Though it blew past the Chicagoans, us Crim-heads were floored. It was of great benefit to see more than one show, as the Crim lineup and music took some getting used to. And so it goes... Until the Fall, I lie in wait for the next assault by the greatest band ever assembled... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:07:29 +0700 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: Re: Hawkwind Chris King wrote: >Quite a number of years ago, I occasionally listened to the band Hawkwind, >mostly because they were a lot of fun to listen to. Someone at the time >gave me a book written by Hawkwind's lyricist--can't remember the name but >he was a Pete Sinfield-like dreamer--that was science fiction and had the >Hawkwind line-up as the protagonists. The lyricist in question was none other than top-rate science fiction author Michael Moorcock, who also worked with Blue Oyster Cult and his own band (which I think was called Deep Fix) James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz / steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 13:59:13 JST From: ohsawa at csg dot sony dot co dot jp (T. Ohsawa) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #208 Thanks everyone for gig reviews and other infos. Here's some from Tokyo: King Crimson is coming to Japan. The concerts are Oct 1 18:00 Kanagawa Prefecture Residents' Hall (or Kanagawa Kenmin Hall) Oct 2 19:00 Tokyo Welfare Fund Hall (or Tokyo Kousei Nenkin Kaikan) Oct 3 19:00 Tokyo Welfare Fund Hall (or Tokyo Kousei Nenkin Kaikan) Oct10 17:00 Hitomi Memorial Hall, Showa Woman's University, Tokyo It was very difficult to get tickets. The first day they started to do reservation of tickets (many systems exist in Japan using telephone, not Internet yet), they said all tickets were sold out. I checked all the reservation agencies in vain. But few days later they added an extra concert which is the one on the 10th. I'm pretty sure that all the concerts will be fully packed. Now something else: * I met Mr Fripp when he was here last year with Mr David Sylvian for their art/ music/light installation at P3 Art and Environment, a large studio-like all-purpose space built direct underneath a Japanese temple in Shinjuku, Tokyo. The installation was titled "Redemption". They even sold a cassette tape with the same title: not KC, not Sylvian & Fripp but something completely different. The installation was composed of color monitors with still images on the screen, skull, chair, many small lit candles, etc. placed on the floor of a large dark space. I also met Mr Sylvian at that time. Sylvian & Fripp music set-up was seen many times in Tokyo. Their stage lighting was coordinated by a Japanese lighting artist who also worked in the installation. It was interesting to see Stick also in Sylvian & Fripp band. Lots of Frippertronics/Soundscapes with David's vocal floating here and there. Lighting was "light" and not heavy. Simple but beautiful. * I met Mr Bruford in a Berlin church after his concert (Earthworks) I think two years ago. He was busy being interviewed by a German jazz magazine. I asked him at that time he would be coming to Tokyo: he said probably in December but they never came. I had bought CD's from the members of Earthworks (not Earthwork CD's but their members' other bands like Django Bates) because those CD's were not on sale (EG Music at that time went bankrupt). Mr Bruford also visits Japan steadily. Once he came to give a special demo on electronic drum system (there's actually a CD on this), he also came as a member of UK with John Wetton (this became a live in Japan album/CD). He did Yes (a grand all-star YES Show) only once in Japan: two drummers (him and A. White), two guitarists (T. Levin and S. Howe), two keyboard players, Chirs Squire and J. Anderson.I went to their only-once concert at Budohkan Hall but it seemed more of a commercial affair than a real art. Earthworks never came to Tokyo. I wish they did but since there is now King Crimson, Mr Bruford can't do both at the same time. * Mr John Wetton was here last year September in Tokyo, right after the release of his new CD. He did a lot of oldies including King Crimson and UK numbers -- audience, all standing, went crazy. As he had been a vocalist in those bands, the music came alive and our memories were revived. He was backed up by a band with very young (looking?) guys probably from England. Mr Wetton seemed to enojoy the concert himself. The concert was packed. * I don't hear about Mr Eddie Jobson. Does anybody know what he is doing now? If yes, does he make any new CD's since he made one with Private Music (New York label)? * Mr Allan Holdsworth visits Tokyo almost every year now (usually the same season: beginning May when Japan has a holiday season). He gives concerts at Pit Inn in Roppongi, Tokyo for a week or so. It's a very small club in the center of Tokyo, usually used by jazz/fusion artists. He plays very well there and is received enthusiastically. There are some very heavy loyal fans of Holdsworth in Japan. A fried of mine who is a professional guitarist (Y. Tanabe) in a band called Paradox (actually this was my naming) did an official interview with Mr Holdsworth two years ago. Y. Tanabe has a similar musical tendency (of course, never the same but) as Mr Holdsworth. Thanks for reading everyone. As a 26-year fan of King Crimson (not exaggerating, but my personality would have been developed somewhat differently if I did not hear them at age 13), I am pleased to share some info with you. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 11:01:26 -0100 From: mumu2001 at bart dot nl (christian mogul) Subject: Soundscape description The Funniest Man Around wrote : Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) From: The Funniest Man Alive Subject: QUERY: Soundscape >Could someone please describe for me what a 'Soundscape' is and what a >Soundscape show would be like? I have heard this term, but I cannot >assoicate it with anything at the moment. Answer and description : iiiiIIIIIIIIIIIIIUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu EEEEEEEngngngngYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy sssssSSSSSSSSSsssssssssSSSSSSSUUUUUUUIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii (repeat for 20 minutes then, a dramatic change) ZZZZZZIIIIIUUUUUUuuuuuuuAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSStgtgtg iu IU iu (applause, Fripp comes into the spot light, makes hands as brim and looks into the audience : "Is there life out there?" he utters. Audience in delirium. Fripp exits. He's not coming back, he has just left the building. At the exit, you can buy some T-shirts, posters and the boot CD of the evening you just have heard. Fripp will release it later, as an official bootleg) Did you get the picture? Chris [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: s dot gold4 at genie dot geis dot com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 12:00:00 UTC Subject: John Wetton Yesterday I got the John Wettom live CD "Chasing the Dragon". The album contains an assortment of KC, UK. & Asia tunes played last year in Japan by John's band, that includes John Beck, Bob Dalton & Andy Skelton. The songs: 1. Heat of the Moment (played acoustically) 2. Don't Cry 3. Rendezvous 6:02 4. Crime of Passion 5. Caught in the Crossfire 6. Easy Money (a very short version) 7. In the Dead of Night 8. Thirty Years (without the good part) 9. Only Time Will Tell 10. Hold Me Now 11. Starless (without the best part) 12. Book of Saturday 13. Battle Lines 14. Open Your Eyes 15. The Smile Has Left Your Eyes The mix is not very good, the drums are too loud, the backup vocals are not loud enough. and John's bass is sometimes indistinct sounding. All in all. its not a great album, but I'm glad to have it Scottt [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:51:13 +0000 From: "Tim Regester" Subject: Hawkwind and "the unknown" John Clark Organization: Telephone Information Services plc Just to add some trivia to these two items. John Clark the Guitarist after Holdsworth in Bruford, was a session musician. He ended up as the guitarist and apparantly musical director for Cliff Richard. I saw this when I caught a horrible five minutes of the latter on the Beeb ( (I have recovered!) The "dreamer" who used Brock, Bainbridge and Huw Lloyd Langton in his novel was none other than Michael Moorcock, who has always been considered an honourary member of Hawkwind. He is rated as one of the most original and prolific writers in SF and Fantasy fiction. Whole Hawkwind albums are based around his work. BBC Radio 1 had a session of Soundscapes by Fripp last night, has anyone taped it since I was unable to. Please let me know. Following the discussion of Ex-Miles sidemen Mclaughlin and Cosey, I would suggest listening to The work of Marc Ribot. The albums I have been played are really interesting and the guitar is very good. There are interesting expansive improvisational bands out here in non-virtual reality It is damned hard to find them. Tim Regester London [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "BARRIE SILLARS" Organization: Phase Devices Limited Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:09:30 WET Subject: Reply to some points in Newsletter#208 Here are some replies on points raised in the last newsletter. "Also LP's generally have more artwork on the covers. If not more, it'sbigger than on CD's. For instance, Yes's "Close To The Edge" on CD has a boring green cover. On LP, the jacket folds out to reveal a really amazing Roger Dean painting. The painting is not on the CD and was not on the LP in later pressings. I'm sure there are some Crimson albums that also have little "extras" on the original LPs. (I don't know for certain. All my KC is on cassette and CD)." The new re-mastered Yes albums have all original artwork restored, including lyrics. I don't think there is much left off the original album covers not on the CD versions. What does come to mind is RF's "Exposure". The original had a "pack" outlining his "Drive to 1980" or some such year. This included a discography, biography, review and photo. On other albums of this period, e.g "God Save the Queen" and LoG album, postcards were included. "Ok, I give. Is there a difference between Frippertronics & Soundscapes?" Yes. See RF's "Soundscapes 1999 - Live in Argentina" for a description of this. "Could someone please describe for me what a 'Soundscape' is and what a Soundscape show would be like? I have heard this term, but I cannot assoicate it with anything at the moment." Ditto , above. Soundscapes are an upgrade of the original frippertronics system developed by Brian Eno with RF in the early 70's. It is a system where the guitar signal is processed via tape recorders and effects pedals to produce a sort of multi-tracking, looping effect. The soundscape system has refined this using newer technology such as midi effects and guitar synthesizer. I hope that is of use. Regards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.Barrie Sillars| | bsillars at phase dot com Senior Design | Phase Devices Limited | Vox:+44 01582 445000 Engineer | Dunstable, LU5 4TS, England | Fax:+44 01582 445060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 15:17 CDT From: trex at skypoint dot com (Ryan Sutter) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 >Ok, I give. Is there a difference between Frippertronics & Soundscapes? > >-- Tom S. Well Tom, I'll take a crack at it. I do not claim to actually know all of Fripps techniques, and frankly I would appreciate being enlightened by anybody who cares to enlighten me. But, from my observation I would conclude "Yes". Frippertronics was a complex arrangement of sustained guitar notes and patterns recorded and looped by reel to reel recorders controlled by Fripp. He could, say, lay a particular phrase down on one tape loop and as that pattern went into loops repititions, layer more intricate harmonic parts on top of and around that, eventually creating complex meshes of sound. This technique could be used on it's own or incorporated into sections of songs as Fripp controlled everything about the loops and repetitions and delays. Soundscapes on the other hand, seems to be an advanced form of Frippertronics, as it incorporates the looping and delays and meshes of the latter with advanced digital guitar synthesizers and effects. I would also be willing to bet that Robert is no longer using reel to reel tape recorders with Soundscapes. One is definitely an evolution of the other, but the are sufficiently different so as to be considered their own forms. I think... Ryan Sutter trex at skypoint dot com Nuclear Gopher Cheese Factory - http://www.skypoint.com/members/trex/ng1.html "I am what I am." - Popeye "You are what you is." - Frank Zappa "I'm a dinosaur." - Adrian Belew [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 19 Jul 95 13:19:42 EDT From: Todd Bernhardt <73364 dot 1601 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Aisle Three Bob at astral dot magic dot ca recently wrote: >So I wander down to the local corner grocery store to get some cigarettes >and ice cream. In a moment of whimsy, I asked the cashier if they had any >figurines of the Virgin Mary. >To my surprise, he suggested I try aisle three. >They were sold out. That happened to me too! I was so surprised when I read your post I dropped my glass full of antique sherry! :) By the way Crimheads, this is my first post after lurking a while, and so far I have only one thing to add: Tom Hanks as Bruford in "Thrak: The Movie" is completely wrong. The only guy who could play the world's greatest drummer is whoever played the leader of the colony that Mel Gibson helps out in "Road Warrior." I don't know his name -- perhaps someone could help me out. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 17:45:07 EST From: Jara at dsif dot fee dot unicamp dot br Subject: CD Damage I would like to buy the "Damage" CD and the "The Essential Frame by Frame" in the region near Stanford University. Does anybody know any shop where I could buy them near there ? It's been very difficult to found them !! Thank you very much in advance !! Marcelo ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-= Marcelo Jara Perez Dpto. Semicondutores DSIF __. Fac. Eng. Eletr. FEE (\|/. UNICAMP Univ. Estadual de Campinas (_()_) 13081-970 Campinas SP Brasil \|\.) e_mail: Jara at dsif dot fee dot unicamp dot br ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-= [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 17:26:20 -0400 From: MDeprey at aol dot com Subject: ET: Fripp in the shadows: case closed Has anyone considered that playing in the lights is distracting for RF? It can be like trying to read from the headlights of passing cars. I really wonder if its all about RF making a statement. Sometimes the lights are just plain annoying. I used to work on Capitol Hill in DC and I avoided TV light setups because the change in intensity would make my eyes hurt. We would always tell our Senators to let his eyes adjust before he started talking so he wouldn't look shifty eyed and squinting. The practical reality is stage lights are bright and can be distracting to someone who is concentrating on posture, execution, and creativity. 'nuff said! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:26:53 -0700 (PDT) From: David McMillan Subject: fractals/pictures Hi Everyone, It may be a bit of a stretch, but I have noticed several levels of similarity in THRAK. Self similarity is the notion that an object will look the same, or have the same characteristic, when viewed at different magnifications. Two good visual examples of this are a tree and a coastline. These are not infinitely self similar in the sense that they are quite limited in the range of different scales one can view them with and still see similarity. The famous fractal pictures we have seen look the same at any scale and could be considered infinitely self similar (I don't know if I am using the correct terminology here). In THRAK, there is a characteristic where the music seems to meander away from a starting point, until it is something quite different. After some exploration KC slips back to the starting point, often quite craftily and/or unexpectedly. So we have this characteristic of: root, journey, back. This is not so uncommon in music, but I think in KC's case they do it with such style and imagination that it's hard not to think about it. The first three levels are noticeable on the track list. THRAK begins with 2 VROOOMs, journeys around for 35 minutes or so then sneaks back to 2 more VROOOMs. Within this journey there is the separation of Inner Garden and the two Radios, each with, successively shorter journeys between root and back. The same characteristic is evident in individual tunes as well. We are all probably familiar with this style in the KC context. So many of the tunes on THRAK follow this basic outline and it's mostly the instrumentals. I would like to go back a bit and mention one of my absolute favourite KC tunes, Sheltering Sky. In this sense, it is the classic root, journey, back type tune. Finally, considering the poly-rhythms within sections of individual pieces, there is a quite short level of this characteristic. If Pat and Bill begin at the same time, playing in say 7/4 and 5/4, they will be rooted for the first few beats. They will effectively journey as their beats go out of phase with each other, and return craftily after 35 bars. So, on THRAK there are at least 5 time scales in which the characteristic root, journey, back occurs. This is self similarity in THRAK as I see it. I don't think there are as many levels of this on any other KC recordings. I have scanned in the 8 pics from the THRAK booklet and the results are pretty good. They can be grabbed from http://www.geop.ubc.ca/~mcmillan/onoma.html I scanned them using an HP desktop scanner set on "millions of colours" and stored them in my account as JPEGs. The quality factor I set at 95% for all, but some might look better if they were saved at a lower quality. This is probably most true for the VROOOM pic, at 95% I think I can see seismograms just below the front wheels! I'm not sure how they got there (those damned seismologists, give em a cm and they take a km). Don't forget, the pics may look better after they are saved and viewed without the browser running. Enjoy. Dave PS. To those who emailed me about the ToaPP video. All is well and I will be getting back to you within a week. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 18:49:09 EDT From: "michael D. Jeter" Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 I just want to thank everyone for the GREAT creation that is ET, and point out s ome things that I think we should be thankful for. I pride myself on the fact that there are no flame wars b/t members, and about the band...As I think I have stated before, it means a great deal to me that , for the most part, we do not second guess the band and fight over them as if KC were some how our property. What brings this up is the fact that, this past sunday, I spent some time in the usenet group alt.fan . yes. I came to Prog Rock through Yes, and I have alwa ys had a warm spot for them, although I came to agree about five years ago with Bill's statement about Yes having more to do with the Fifth Dimension than with the music that is KC. Anyway, for a long time, I have noticed Yes fans...what a petty bunch of grouches! For the record, I have enjoyed Yes during the 80's, I think both Trevor Horn, who produced 90125 and sang for them in 1979 and Trevor Rabin, their guitarist/vocalist/keyboardist/producer/songwriter is a genius who breathed ten years back into a dead and dying band. Well, in case anyone hasn't heard, Trevor Rabin and Tony Kaye have both left(been pushed out, IMO)of yes to be replaced by...Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman, So that Yes is now Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman and White---the same band that exised from 75-77(I may have my dates slightly off, but I think you all understand) I think both Howe and Wakeman are highly overrated, and this band bored me in 77, so I have given up on YES(I think Drama is their best album, and that was b/c The Buggles, Trvor Horn and Geoff Downes, were in the band)Anyway, Since Trevor Rabin joined Yes in 1980-81, fans of the so-called "classic" Yes sound, i.e., the mutual musical masturbation of Howe and Wakeman, have voiced their dissapointment with everything Trevor Rabin has done, including the brilliant, IMO album, Talk, Which bagan to build a bridge b/t said "classic" sound and the music they embraced in the eighties. The result: the fans who have been begging for the return of Howe and Wakeman are now sayin "I don't think they have it any more." I take pride in all of us, that we follow the work of Mr. Fripp and The Scarlet Prince(s) with an open mind (open heart?:-). Thank you all:-) Michael [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Peter Hadley Subject: More on Bruford... Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Hello, Firstly, I would like to thank everyone for their mails and posts answering my question on Bruford's solo works. Now for another: What is the status on the book mentioned in that on-line chat _When In Doubt, Roll!_ ? Is this a, (auto)biography or a how to play like me book ? Is it out of print ? Could anyone send me the publisher and ISBN ? Also, a few of you mentioned the Bruford/Moraz albums, are these still around ? Out on CD ? Sorry, I'm writing from this little town of Boston (that thinks it's a big town) where you can't find any Bruford stuff. Therefore I've been doing my ordering through Possible Productions. Thanks, now for a bitch: >>"Anyway this leads to a funny story.... During Indiscipline Bruford went >>wild going from one end of his kit to the other over and over and hitting >>every cymbal on the way. RF looked pretty disgusted. Stopped playing, >>leaned back, and waved his arm trying to get Bill's attention.... They both >>started laughing so hard they just about fell off their stools." >I bet it wasn't really so funny for Fripp. No wonder he & Bruford had >troubles getting along. I don't think that was professional enough of >Bruford; the story disapoints me......... Disapoints you ? Have you ever been in a band ? Ever hear of having a little fun ? Fripp laughs so infrequently (in public at least) I really see it as an ify situation that he would stage a laughter session. Professional enough ? Strange, --jay [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:02:50 -0400 (EDT) From: MARKCH at midd dot middlebury dot edu Subject: RE: Elephant-talk digest v95 #208 In ET #208 The Engineer formerly known as Tim asked: A question, Is this U.K. rumour real??? Well, a couple of weeks ago I had a nice little chat with Allan Holdsworth before he played a gig in a little tiny club called Metronome in Burlington, Vermont. I asked him if there was any truth to the rumor that there was a UK reunion in the works. He said he had also heard the rumour and had even been approached by Wetton's management, but that nobody had said anything about the specifics (time, place, money). It was one of those shows that made you want to rush home, gather all your guitars together. . . . . .and take a match to 'em. murkie (markch at middlebury dot edu) Jesus is coming! Look busy! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:48:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hank w. Wright" Subject: Crossing the Big Picture... The album I am listening to as I type this is "The Big Picture" by David Cross! Up until last week I never even knew that he recorded solo. This album apparantly came out in 1992, and I have another album coming... something about a "Testing Ground." Does anyone know ANYTHING about the David Cross albums? Are there more than two? This one I am listening to is very good..are they all like this? I would really LOVE to hear from anyone with info. two more things: "The Acoustic Adrian Belew" is now available as a Japanese Import...I tried to order it, but the company was out of it! I will keep trying! I don't want to miss out on this! To the person inguiring about the U.K. re-union: Yes, it's true! I read an interview with John Wetton a while back... he says Eddie Jobson and he have been writing songs, and will begin recording soon. Bill Bruford and Alan Holdsworth will have "special guest" status... in other words, they wish to be a part of this, but can not devote all of there time to it. I'm curious to see if Terry Bozzio will be around or not... Before I go.. thanks to Toby for making this all happen. It's great to be in a forum dedicated to my favorite band! later to all.. Hank [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:39:44 -0400 From: ritch at mail dot htp dot com (Ritch Calvin) Subject: Levin & Marotta Hi: (Sorry for any cross-posting, but I've also posted this query to the Gabriel List.) I was just leaving through the latest issue (Bjork, ironically) and noticed an advert for the following CD: Sarah Nagourney: Realm of My Senses. It features Tony Levin and Jerry Marotta. Has anyone hear it? The ad says the single can be heard at: http://soundwire.com, but I don't have the tool to listen to sound files (anyone suggest a good one for the Mac?). Thanks for any info! Ritch Calvin [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:25:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Heck Subject: Records, First-pressings, CDs > From: david at Visix dot COM (David Charlap) > > Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu writes: > > > >This brings up two further questions: 1. At one time I thought it extremely > >wrong to consider the material object (book, LP, Cd, etc.) as having any > >value because I thought that that deminished the value of the actual work > >of art that was captured in the object. I disliked collectors of original > >pieces, because they made themselves equal to card collectors and comic > >book collectors, while saying at the same time that the music on an LP > >wasn't what was of extreme value. Does anyone else see my point? > > Yes. In some cases, the desire to pay for first-run pressings is silly. > But not always. Very often, the first run includes little bonuses, like > extra liner notes, photos, etc. Let's not forget the fact that early pressings of LPs tend, if they are in good shape, to SOUND BETTER than later pressings: That's why a lot of people are prepared to spend a lot of money for early pressings. The reason is fairly simple: Earlier generation master tapes are being used. Another reason is that, in my experience, early pressings tend to be made on better-quality vinyl, with a bit more care than re-issues. By the way, some CDs of older albums sound so awful, too, because the tapes are old. In some cases of really old albums (blues, jazz), I've been told the original tapes were unsalvagable, and the CDs were actually made >from digitally cleaned-up tapes made from LPs! > I'm sure there are some Crimson albums that also have little "extras" on > the original LPs. (I don't know for certain. All my KC is on cassette and > CD). _Islands_ certainly had quite a different cover originally. The _Larks' Tongues_ cover is subtly different on the EG pressings. (These, by the way, are pretty good, esp. if you can get ahold of the half-speed mastered re-issues made in the early eighties. Those can be pretty expensive. I've only got a few. If anyone's looking to unload some of those....) I've seen differences among _Starless_ covers, but don't remember what they were. I don't know what CDs and cassettes you have, but I'm fairly sure that all the CDs available now are the Fripp-Arnold remasters, which can sound quite different from the original LPs. (These, though, are far superior to the original CDs--which, like many mastered back in the early days of CD, just sound awful.) I was quite surprised at one point to find that a particular cymbal was in a different channel on the CD of _Discipline_. This is even more the case with some of Fripp's stuff. When _Exposure_ was re-mastered, it was also re-mixed, and some of the songs sound completely different--generally, a lot less raw. I prefer the original album and mix myself, but try not to think of them as being the same album at all. I've not heard the re-mastered versions of all of the Fripp albums--but, for what I have heard, _Evening Star_ sounds somewhat different, too. > >Is the rarity of an LP make it more valuable when I can get the CD > >version anywhere for 11.99? > > No, but as I said, you may be getting more than just an old record. A pet topic, now: For one thing, if you've got a decent turntable and system at all, you'll probably be getting better sound quality, so long as the record's in any kind of shape at all (and your 'table is properly set- up, etc., etc.). On that topic, does anyone know whether THRAK was, anywhere, released on vinyl? I'd be prepared to pay a fair amount for it.... Man, I'd like to hear that on vinyl! And maybe that would make a plea appropriate, since the Discipline Records people might see this: Vinyl's making a comeback here in the US. PLEASE let us have some! Richard [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:38:11 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: Re: Richard and Beau; Meeting KC members Way to go Richard and Beau!! I enjoyed your post re: your backstage experience in SF and your gig review especially as I had just met Beau as a result of a posting to Stickwire (re: his use of the Ensoniq DP/4 with his Stick.) Some people have all the luck. 8-) I was similarly tongue-tied upon meeting Robert at the last Frippertronics lecture at U of T in Toronto in '83. An interesting performance. The audience had to wait in line outside the hall with the doors closed. Inside we could hear Robert begin playing. After about 10 min. or so (it seemed LONG), the doors were opened and everyone hurried to their seats as Robert continued to play. He finished the piece and did a couple more. The lecture followed this. He then played back one of the tapes and soloed over it. At the end of the performance, Robert invited those interested to line up and he would entertain question on a one-on-one basis. Wouldn't you know, my ex and I were FIRST in line.(OK, we almost ran.) I could only grin and thank him for years of musical inspiration and enjoyment. Fortunately I was with a woman who is much more extroverted than I and as much a Fripp fan as well. She and Robert spoke for almost ten min; I stood and listened as they discussed dancing with attention, children and Frippertronics, and keeping attention focused (the "always keep some part of your attention on one hand" exercise,) I can never remember which hand. Ah, hindsight. I certainly have more questions -and- confidence now. Maybe next time, Robert. BTW Richard, I assume you're a Stick player too? See you on Stickwire. J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca "Also Thrack Zarathustra" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: dstortion, barking, comix, etc. Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Albin Michael Rose" Hey ho, y'all, just another ET'er taking time from his studies (master's thesis due in two weeks--AAAAHHHH!!!) to respond to a few things in the latest ET (208): Somebody commented: I like belew's scream on sex sleep eat drink dream. I think that little job he did with trent reznor gave him some ideas for voice treatment AMR replies: Well, ya know, it's funny, I'm kinda out of the Reznor swing of things. (Ever since Head Like a Hole I thought he was the trying to be the pop/sexy version of Mr. Alien Jourgensen. Who I also think is overrated, but that's neither here nor there.) What I /do/ know is that when I heard CotCK for the first time many moons ago I thought "wow, they used distortion on their voices way back then... heavy..." So when I heard SSEDD off VROOOM I thought "Yo ho! The distorto vocals are back!" And never did Reznor enter my mind. But now that you mention it, what /did/ AB do with Mr. Reznor? (And did Reznor invite him because he liked "Oh Daddy" so much? {:)> Arf arf.) And on the topic of "Arf arf," somebody out there didn't like Bruford's barking, and wrote: I bet it wasn't really so funny for Fripp. No wonder he & Bruford had troubles getting along. I don't think that was professional enough of Bruford; the story disapoints me. Think about the collapse of the music they were making; that's what the performers had assembled to to, not to tease each other with noise calculated to irritate. If Bruford couldn't hang with the agreement, he should have left. It was unfair and dishonest to play along for a while and then greedily hog the airspace. AMR replies: Oh, now. We can't judge a relationship on one night on stage. I'm sure it was all in good clean fun. There's been many a night when all I can do is shake my head at my musical compatriot's quirks as I play straight man. That the two of 'em both laughed at the end should calm us all down, shouldn't it? When I saw Crimso back last June 10 & 12, one of the fun things was watching Bruford's face. His quirky smiles, his nods and cues to Mr. Mastelotto (there! I spelled it! Mastelotto Mastelotto Mastelotto!), and the look of almost malicious erotic glee as he rolled on his snare before letting the tension fly, so to speak. (Moments like that his face reminded me of Tim Curry's. Maybe it's an English thang.) Anyhow, my point is that when you're in a band with a guy whose approach to percussion is as visceral as his is /and/ who has a sense of humor that tosses off phrases like "Braless and Slightly Slack" (see Great Deciever liner notes), you have to expect and contend with it occasionally. He's still a far sight better than Don Henley (and knows not to sing, too). Oh--and on the topic of great RF solos (or "the best RF solo IMHO," etc), those of you that haven't already checked out his contribution to "Baby's On Fire" off of Eno's Here Come the Warm Jets should do so sometime in the near future. By CRACKY it's a hot one. Sometimes you /can/ do a lot with two chords; it just depends on who's doing it & how it's done. And in response to the individual who had this to say of Fripp: (... I always get the impression of that Grasshopper guy in Kung-Fu when I think of Robert, and that he would belittle me with riddles and pebble snatchin tricks and I would be humiliated if I ever met him!). AMR replies: Great! That's great! If you've read Eric Tamm's book you'll know about the Gurdjieff mysticism--and this Grasshopper image is the bee's knees! Another ET'er wrote: Just read on the Todd Rundgren Mailing List that King Crimson will appear this week on The Difference, a radio show hosted by Todd himself. AMR asks: Well, now, how in blue blazes am I s'posed to pick up this station out in BFE, i.e. Lansing Michigan? Is it syndicated? Will NPR play it at 3:45 AM some Thursday? Why do you taunt us so?!? Oh--and a p.s. to whomever first titillated us with the "Fripp and Belew on Fresh Air" tidbit--was that just to generate demand? Or did you hear a different interview somewhere? Please get back to us--if there /is/ some interview out there, you /must/ know by now we're interested. Why do you taunt us so (pt.2) ?!? Two last thoughts before I vanish into the void: A CK comic would be reeealy funny, but you'll never see it from the band itself. C'mon, that's the domain of 70's era Kiss. Crimso is too human to puff their own egos like that. Thing Number Two: On the topic of e-mail abbreviations--note that we must include initials for all the letters of "In the Court of the Crimson King," for if we were to make it more sensibly streamlined (lose the "in the," drop that extra "the" in the middle) we'd get CoCK. Not pretty. Think Pleasant Thoughts, Albin Rose [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:09:02 Subject: Video From: Dave Smith Some time ago (about 10 years I think) I recorded a TV 'in concert series' programme of King Crimson playing in San Tropez. I accidentally managed to record over most of the concert, all that is left now is about 2.5 tracks, mind you one of them is 'heartbeat'. Does anyone know if the video of this concert (or others featuring Fripp, Levin, Bruford and Belew) are available? Dave Smith ******************************************************************* * Dave Smith - Bewdley, Worcestershire, England, UK * * * 01299 405224 * * * email: dsmith at severn dot win-uk dot net * ******************************************************************* [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT) From: terry kroetsch f Subject: Rembrandts Sorry - more Rembrandt copy... Did anyone see them on Leno Wednesday with Pat M on drums? It was more powerful than they usually are live - I wonder if he will tour with them? He is, of course, all over there albums. I remember seeing him walking down the street before the Ann Arbor show with a tape reel can (you know what I mean) under his arm. He seemed intent upon something but what? I did enjoy the latest Book of Saturday with real trivia: Stackridge (anyone remember them - god, I used to LOVE them) covered a Gordon Haskell song on there third album. Let me raise this issue one more time: Voice Print once advertised a Michael Giles CD - does anyone know if this exists? I still think McDonald and Giles really is half of the "lost" follow-up to ItCotCK (Wake being the other half - I adore those records....) Another thread to follow - ,I am making the ultimate KC cover tape. Can anyone help? I have the obvious ones...I would be willing to copy this for interested parties if I can get a full tape. So far: April Wine - 21st C Greg Lake - 21st/Court Swedish compilation - on its way - don't know what or who ELP - 21st C (yikes!) Well, that's all I can think away from home - there might be 2 or 3 more. Is there a Primus cover available? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]