Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk #207 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 207, Thursday, 13 July 1995 Today's Topics: NEWS ---- Soundscapes Tour update RF on Radio 1/B'Boom in Virgin UK stores ET WWW pages update POSTS ----- Re: A Bill question Re: Seeing and not hearing Re: A Bill Question Re: Crimson sans Fripp Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 MISC: catching up Re: Creaking into the mix Novelty songs "Fresh Air" interview-required info Public Radio Fripp/Belew interview??!! Re: Elephant Talk #205 -- Seeing is still not hearing Drums Are Drums Are Drums re: A Bill Question RE: VH-1 in '89 For sale post A Bill Answer USA is available on CD. Sartori Bruford Tapes Cymbals Belew with Palmer/ Lighting thought. Query:Let the power Fall RFSQ CD MISC: Re. Bruford albums Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 KC in the Soviet Union Suspect sound mix in concert Query:Power Fall cont. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] POSTS: Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk ARCHIVES: The ET archives are: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 18:56:44 BST From: Hugh at DGM Subject: News from DGM Robert is live Soundscaping on Radio 1's The Mark Radcliffe Show on Tuesday 18th (next week). B'BOOM is going on the Virgin Listening Posts (in the UK) for anyone who's not sure and wants to hear before they buy. Can there be any ETers who fall into that category? I think not, but it helps to add to the buzz that this is a great album. B'BOOM will be on Virgin Listening Posts from release date July 31 for 2 weeks. (in the UK) We are hoping to have a live KC track on Total Guitar magazine free CD (September issue). Regarding tour merchandise. For the people who had no cash on the night of the concerts and now want T-shirts and KC logo baseball caps the merchandisers may still have some left and will deal with individual enquiries from really desparate people . BCL Merchandising Suite 108 222 Kensal Road London W10 5BN 0181 964 3311 0181 964 3003 Bye for now Hugh [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:35:35 -0400 From: Michael Tedesco Subject: Soundscapes Tour update Sept. 1st & 2nd: Muhlenberg College, Allentown, PA USA -confirmed. Ticket info: after August 1st call (610) 821-3239 Sept. 8th & 9th: Washington Square Church, NYC, NY USA -confirmed There WILL be a Washington, DC area show. Bids are in, decision shortly. Exact date and location TBA. It will be between Sept. 4th & 10th. New Jersey is also in the works. This schedule will be updated weekly, or as confirmations come in. Best, -MT [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Toby Subject: ET WWW pages update The pages are having Summer re-vamp. Please check them out, and I'd welcome comments, ideas, help. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html Thanks Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:11:53 GMT From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Re: A Bill question > Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? The Bruford Tapes is a single live album with many tracks from One of a Kind if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure he had Stewart and Berlin with him, but I can't remember if Holdsworth is on it or not. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ____ ~ /\ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James' World ~ \_. `\/\~/ /_ \_ "AND NOW FOR THE ICEPICK TO THE FOREHEAD Canada's _____,> _|\___> \_ ... a million laughs ..." Lotion ~,' N.S. __/ ~ \_ [Zappa, Joe's Garage] Playground |___,---' ~ james m. crawford: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:20:45 -0700 From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold) Subject: Re: Seeing and not hearing Re: Fripp not being visible by spotlight. A friend who saw the band in LA reminded me that Miles Davis would play with his back to the audience. At least Robert was facing the right way ;-). So, grow up pop fans, musicians can do whatever they want. The music and the moment are what matters. - Brian --------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Arnold arnold at lumina dot com Director of Software Development Lumina Decision Systems, Inc. http://www.lumina.com/lumina/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:28:30 -0400 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: Re: A Bill Question In a message dated 95-07-10 14:06:40 EDT, you write: >Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? Masterstrokes is a best-of-album. The Bruford Tapes is a live radio broacast with a stupid title. >I remember a compiled album from '86 or so with a great cover, this may >have been _Masterstrokes_, Sounds right. >if so, is any unreleased material on it ? No. Now: Where's that American release of "Blessing of Tears"? musically reclined, David Beardsley dmb5561719 at aol dot com ************************************************************************** Email us for information on IMMP recordings. Include IMMP in the subject line for a speedy response. IMMP = strange beautiful music, an adventure. *************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:28:41 -0400 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Crimson sans Fripp In a message dated 95-07-10 14:06:40 EDT, you write: >so what would >happen if Fripp decided to retire, without retiring Crimson. bite your tongue! musically reclined, David Beardsley dmb5561719 at aol dot com ************************************************************************** Email us for information on IMMP recordings. Include IMMP in the subject line for a speedy response. IMMP = strange beautiful music, an adventure. *************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:53:02 -0800 From: delgadil at cisco dot com (Kevin Delgadillo) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 > >From: Peter Hadley >Subject: A Bill question >Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 12:30:40 -0400 (EDT) > >I'm getting ready to order some CDs, the vinyl is worn and scratched. I >have Bruford's _Feels Good To Me_, _One Of A Kind_, and _Gradually Going >Tornado_. > >Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? _Masterstrokes_ is a "best of" compilation of Bruford's "solo" efforts, spanning the albums _One of a Kind_, _Feels Good to Me_, _Gradually Going Tornado_, _Music for Piano and Drums_, and _Flags_. (The last two were duets with Patrick Moraz). Great disc. Essential for any Bruford fan, or any fan of, dare I say, "fusion"? _The Bruford Tapes_ is a live recording with some great playing. The sound quality leaves a bit to be desired, but the set is good. The song list (from memory) is: (not in order): Hells Bells Sample and Hold Beelzebub Fainting in Coils One of a Kind Parts 1 and 2 5G Sahara of Snow Part 1 I think that's it. :) Any Bruford disc is a good disc. Get em all. Kevin --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Delgadillo Product Manager - IOS Software Release Phone : (408) 526-7334 FAX : (408) 526-4952 e-mail: delgadil at cisco dot com Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134 || || || || |||| |||| ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. Cisco Systems, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 17:07:46 EDT From: "michael D. Jeter" Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 My assumption was not that he cymbal restriction was total, but that Bill rely on it less than he, and most drummers usually do:-) Michael [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:45:42 -0700 (PDT) From: David McMillan Subject: Catching up I was on holidays most of June, which also included KC here in Vancouver on the 21st. It's taken me about a week and a half to catch up on all the digests waiting for me. This is turning out to be kinda lengthy and my attempts at being as brief as possible may distort or obscure some ideas. Here are some thoughts... [] THRAK - I was quite disturbed by the level of disappointment expressed by alot of fellow ETers. Maybe it was because my first couple of listenings were overshadowed by a sort of confusion and disappointment, too. I was confused because there is just so much going on there that my poor brain was unable to digest it all right away. I was initially let down because I thought I heard too much of that "Adrian pop sensibility" that has been discussed so frequently. I was becoming increasingly disenchanted with Adrian's solo recordings, and thinking that he had gone too far down that road and wasn't coming back (see concert notes). Hmmm, "The Rail Song" comes to mind here! I continued listened to THRAK and it began to take hold, rooting its way into my mind and soul. I began digesting, taking apart and breaking down, hearing subtleties and aggressiveness never before experienced. It is now firmly rooted and I can't get enough. I go to listen to music and everything else I have, which is alot, fails to command my fullest attention (see other listening). I have found that records whose first listening is accompanied by a sort of confusion and bewilderment become very long lived favourites. Other quick notes... I don't hear the "pop" thing anymore. I hear THRAK as a completely individual creation by KC. I REALLY dig the tune "People". The last tune to catch up and root however was "Inner Garden". I had read many postings about the Lennon similarity before I heard THRAK, so I was listening for it. But I have to agree with another reader (can't remember who) that left to my own devices I would not have drawn that parallel. If I really try, I can hear equally Lennonesque vocals on "Islands" and CotCK. For chaos and fractals afficionados: has anyone noticed several (at least 3) levels of self similarity in THRAK? More about this later. [] Lyrics - It's been over 20 years since "Red" and over 10 years since ToaPP and these guys have been through alot. We can't really say that what they've been up to is good or bad, although we can like or dislike. After reading so many reviews of THRAK, musically and lyrically, I've realized that for me I can only comment on THRAK as a whole without comparison to previous incarnations of KC. I will, however, say a few words about how I fell about Adrian's lyrics as a member of KC. I recently showed my ***VHS video of ToaPP live in Japan*** (see video notes) to my new roommate and realized that Adrian's lyrics are incredibly unique. Just think of all the "word experiments" he did in the 80s, like "Elephant Talk", "Indiscipline", "Thela Hun Ginjeet", "Neal and Jack and Me", "Neurotica" and "Dig Me". Granted, he hasn't stepped out quite so far with THRAK, but I think that experimental quality is still there (a bit). I believe the best example is "People". Yeah, I know he's not saying anything new and maybe the chorus is a little unoriginal (lyrically), but the verses are Adrian's word play at its best. I mean, at this stage of KC's evolution, what could be more fitting? These guys are doing their best to take notes and music out of a particular context and twist and rework them. I see it as "note play" and "rhythm play". The word play fits right in. [] Concert - Too super-fucking-cool, awesome and mentally exhausting. I have been unable to think of just the right words to describe the intricacy of the mellow funky rockin' avant-garde soundscape they threw at us. Well, it was *good*... Adrian's BACK! His guitar playing and singing was outstanding. The screaming solos were incredible. My faith has been completely restored and I can now live with the "pop sensibilities". I met a friend of mine outside after the show and we just looked at each other dumbfounded. He said, "That was mentally exhausting". I nodded but could say nothing because I was still speechless. Another friend who never really got into KC, but as a bassist is a big fan of TL (don't ask me how that can be) was just standing there grinning a totally drug-free ear to ear grin! [] Other listening - There has been a bit of banter lately about some of Fripp's more definitive playing in the past decade. As I mentioned, most of my music collection has seemed quite dry since the coming of the THRAK, but one record in particular was really great to listen to. I think it is some of Fripp's nicest work and didn't get a mention yet... that is "Gone to Earth" by DS. [] Video - Yes, I have a VHS copy of the ToaPP video. Someone mentioned that "Waiting Man" was in the set list at the end but doesn't appear in the video. This is true for my copy as well. I long time ago I bought a vinyl EP by RF called "Network", I think. It has 5 tunes as I recall, including "Here Comes the Flood" and "Under Heavy Manners". Anyway, inside the jacket was a single page add with a hilarious picture of RF in this kinda ta-daaah pose and shades offering to sell me this video. Needless to say I was compelled to do so. I no longer have the picture, but I received a few, very extensive, music video catalogues from the distribution company during the late 80s. I can't remember the name of the company. If anyone is interested in the video, please email me. Dave [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:42:29 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at Ebay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Re: Creaking into the mix Someone was theorizing the source of the creaking sounds as being shoulder strap creaks being picked up by the "Stick" pickups. Where does life and art intertwine? For one, a Double-Trio recording, or so it would seem. By the way, on this subject, I have heard on commercial releases, the sound of a large door closing and someone chatting away...I've also heard ashtrays and/or music racks being knocked over. One rather famous classical recording contains the sound of jets taking off, and Paul Horn's classic "INSIDE" recording contains the sound of the mosquitos buzzing around the mikes. (on that one, Paul notes it in the liner notes). All these real life sounds were left on major commercial releases...right along with all the unreal "fake" sounds created by the artists.... Whatever the source, isn't it refreshing to hear some "real" sounds in with all the "unreal"?????????!!!!!!! (Let's see how many people misinterprete these comments as some kind of criticism!) ;>) ....being a bit silly, for a Monday afternoon...(I admit it!) -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Novelty songs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 18:17:19 -0400 From: "Lee S. Kilpatrick" (Mr. Breeze) > [at some point KC should consider retiring 'Indiscipline' from live > performance. It, 'Thel Hun Ginjeet' and to lesser degree 'Elephant Talk' > are novelty tunes, lyrically speaking. As Mike noted, they seem to bring Novelty tunes? So songs either have to have coherent narratives or else be instrumentals? I think these songs are great, and I'd have loved to have had them perform "Thela Hun Ginjeet" when I saw them in Boston. And besides, novelty can often be much better than morose, brooding seriousness. Lee [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:16:04 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at Ebay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: "Fresh Air" interview-required info If you plan to call National Public Radio to order an audio cassette copy of the Fresh Air interview with Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew, (1-800-934-6000) mentioned in today's ET-Digest, you will need to tell them the EXACT DATE of the show, as I found out when I called today. So, since I didn't know the EXACT DATE, I was referred to the Customer Service line, which is the other number listed in today's post (609-951-2230). When I called that number, after explaining my query, I was routed to voicemail for the Fresh Air show, where I left a message asking for the date of their Fripp/Belew interview and left my work number. No response yet.... Unless someone else can post (has posted?) the EXACT DATE (of the original airing of the interview) ahead of me, I will post it to Elephant Talk as soon as I get the required info. -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:19:54 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at Ebay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Public Radio Fripp/Belew interview??!! Well, I just got off the phone with the "Fresh Air" public radio show's assistant producer and she double-checked their archive information, even chatted with one of the show's producers (who knows Robert Fripp personally), and there has been no interviews with Fripp, Belew or "King Crimson" on the "Fresh Air" show out of National Public Radio (NPR) since 1987, which is when their archive list was begun. So, this interview was either originally aired prior to 1987 OR it was never aired on the "Fresh Air" program, but perhaps some other program, such as "All Things Considered" or "Morning Edition".... Again, in order to obtain cassette copies of any NPR program, one will need the EXACT DATE the show was originally aired, the guest name(s), and/or the topic of discussion. One additional caveat: the assistant producer of "Fresh Air" told me that their guest(s) need to have signed a release authorization to allow cassette copies of their show to be made available to the public. So if Robert Fripp and/or Adrian Belew were on "Fresh Air" but didn't sign the release, then audio copies will not be made public. One way around this last rule, is for some kind-hearted fellow fan who taped the show off-the-air (whichever show it was) to make copies available -- or at least let me know. Can anyone help with any of this? Why am I doing all this investigation about a possible interview with Robert Fripp and/or Adrian Belew, you might ask? Because I love interviews, particularly "Fresh Air" interviews -- and am very interested in hearing such a one, if it indeed exists. "Fresh Air" interviews are some of the very best I have ever heard anywhere. I have heard a number of "Fresh Air" guests compliment the host, Terry Gross, on the quality of her interview questions and interview style (this includes Stan Getz, Richard Thompson, George Carlin, and some others). If you've never checked the show out, you should. Check your local NPR affiliate to see if they carry the show. -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:20:40 +0100 From: James Collett Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #205 -- Seeing is still not hearing In ET #205, AIMorrison at aol dot com writes:- > i just got back from the gig which i had taken my girlfriend(a new crim > head) here are some quotes > > "why is that guy hidding in the shadows"and "why is he not doing anything" > ... > ... > p.s. if belew,bruford.levin were to start their own band called king > crimson would any one notice the difference or care? This almost puts me in the mood for "flaming" (I think that this is what "netsurfers" call it). I have not enjoyed the privilege of attending a live King Crimson event. I have therefore had to use my ears to hear their music. Robert Fripp's input to the music of King Crimson is certainly noticeable on all the recordings I have heard. This is confirmed (for me) by my recognising his sound from his work with other musicians. I find it hard to believe that this is any different with the current live incarnation of the band. I am getting a bit hot under the collar and perhaps taking this too seriously. Perhaps AIMorrison's question was intended to provoke. However, I really do recommend actually _listening_ to the music. I still wish I could see 'em live, though! ;-} I think the quick answer to that "p.s." is: Yes." On the subject of "why is that guy hidding in the shadows", I wonder whether Fripp will come to regret his decision to step back from the limelight. (From what I know of his previous live work with Peter Gabriel, I understand that he kept apart from all the stage-larking even then, sitting studiously at the side of the stage and playing the music.) Maybe it was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but just possibly Fripp had music in mind and didn't want to detract from it. And now of course, here we are focussing on the shadows -- me included, now! O, the irony of it. On the same subject and in the same edition of ET, Allen Huotari writes:- > Nevertheless, I'm sure there must be more to this choice than mere > dramatic effect, especially if these issues are both interesting and a > 'major concern' to RF. > ... > ... > If anyone in KC (esp. RF) would care to provide the authoritative > answer the question posed in the subject, I'm sure it would be > appreciated by the group. I am afraid my input is not authoritative. I am interested to read that Fripp takes this issue seriously, and I would echo this request for information. > Otherwise, let's bury this topic. Probably a good idea. However, I _am_ happy and grateful that there is a forum where we can discuss and exchange ideas other than the "wow KC are great" and "that was the best gig I ever saw" stuff, valid as it is. ___________________________________________________________________________ James Collett JamesC at bartley dot demon dot co dot uk ("work") It's not the end of the world but from here you can see it. ___________________________________________________________________________ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Sean Brady Subject: Drums Are Drums Are Drums Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:46:29 +1000 (EST) If there is anyone out there who was close enough at one of the concerts to see, and is so inclined, could they please post details of Messrs Bruford and Mastelotto's current percussive armourment on this tour - possibly BB has reverted to mainly acoustic noise-makers this time around? Metal instruments have featured heavily in his work with King Crimson at times and the latest recordings would indicate a resurgence. Of course it's hard to tell in this midi world what's what; perhaps Fripp has softened his previous position on cymbals and the like (they were taking all his accents apparantly). Sean [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 01:14:26 -0700 From: Tolin.A/Apple at eworld dot com Subject: re: A Bill Question >I'm getting ready to order some CDs, the vinyl is worn and scratched. I have >Bruford's _Feels Good To Me_, _One Of A Kind_, and_Gradually Going >Tornado_. >Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? Both "Master Strokes" and "Bruford Tapes" are on CD. I have the second one (I've bought it yesterday...) and its code is: Virgin/EG Records UK:EEGCD 6 Ciao Andrea [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Mathews, Thomas J." Subject: RE: VH-1 in '89 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 09:04:00 EST > From: "Neil J. Cavanagh" <76111 dot 3636 at compuserve dot com> > Another note: Fripp and the Crafties hosted VH-1 New Visions back in 1989 > and they played a tune called 'Thrak.' It was, I believe, the same slashing > polymetric cycle that we have come to know and 'love'. I taped the audio portion of this. Hmm I wonder where that tape might be. I do remember one thing. Robert seemed to be a nervous wreck. The crafties laughed at (with?) his verbal fumbles more than once. The guitar playing was excellent. I'll give it a listen for Thrak. tj [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 11 Jul 1995 09:54:46 -0500 From: "Jonathan Block" Subject: For sale post I have some rare Crimson stuff for sale. For a list, e-mail me at: jblock at gartner dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Triebe, Andy" Subject: A Bill Answer Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 10:57:00 EDT In response to Peter Hadley's request on Bruford material... Master Strokes is a compilation and I'm quite sure that it consists only of prereleased material. The Bruford Tapes is a live album of tracks from One Of A Kind and Feels Good To Me, which are both excellent but can sound a bit sterile as they are recorded so well. The Bruford Tapes capture the energy and enthusiasm that these tracks generate in a great small club atmosphere. The "unknown" John Clark fills in for Alan Holdsworth on guitar and if you didn't know this from reading the liner notes, it would be tough to tell the difference at times. He puts it a great shredded chord at the beginning of The Sahara of Snow that would make any RF fan take notice. Jeff Berlin is along as well, sneaking some Cream bass lines in here and there, and Dave Stuart rounds out the line-up. As I mentioned, there is great atmosphere on this recording and yes, even the occaisional shout of "Bruuuuuuford!". All in all an excellent work out, definitely worth owning. (I think I'll slap that sucker on tonight!) Andy dot Triebe at NRC dot CA [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:04:13 -0400 From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) Subject: USA is available on CD. According to a catalog at Desert Island Music (a local establishment) USA is out on CD. Last year when i went down to order it it was not available in any form at all, but i checked recently and it is now available. Also, isn't there a discography that comes with Frame by Frame that indicates that USA is available on CD? well it's goodbye. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "ToddM" Organization: LaserMaster Corporation Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:03:23CST6CDT Subject: Sartori Watcher of the Skies sez: "1. Why is "Sartori In Tangier" spelled with an extra "r" in "sartori"? Is this the British spelling or something? Boy, do I sound ignorant." Perhaps a reference to the Sartorial? All I know is that "Sartori in Tangiers" is an anagram for "String RIot in Aria". ToddM at laserm dot lmt dot com Todd Madson - Associate Technician LaserMaster Technical Support Services [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "ToddM" Organization: LaserMaster Corporation Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:06:51CST6CDT Subject: Bruford Tapes Peter Hadley Says: "Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ?" Masterstrokes is a best of compilation between the "Feels good to me" and "One of a Kind" and "Gradually Going Tornado" periods. Also some tracks between Bruford and Moraz is also on the disc. The Bruford Tapes is a RED HOT live recording of the "Tornado" band live in New York. A friend gave me a tape of this one years ago and I always thought it was a bootleg, but finally tracked the CD down and it really kicks butt. It's got John Clarke instead of Mr. Holdsworth, but get it anyway, it's still a speaker frying frenzy fest! Needless to say, Bruford's "Electric Chat" between tracks is most amusing. ToddM at laserm dot lmt dot com Todd Madson - Associate Technician LaserMaster Technical Support Services [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 11 Jul 95 19:11:32 EDT From: Josh Emery <73174 dot 3300 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Cymbals In ET206 The Watcher of the Skies asks: >2. If Fripp forbade Bruford to use cymbals in the Discipline-era band, then >why do I hear ride cymbal on songs like "Matte Kudasai", "Indiscipline", >"Neurotica", etc.? Or was Fripp just providing a general guideline that >Bruford was allowed to occasionally stray from? I don't know the exact answer to this but I do remember reading a lot about it. I think as a general guide line the cymbals use the same frequencies as guitar and would cover up Fripp and Belew. On much of the Discipline era stuff there is very little cymbal riding. I love Bruford's drumming from that period (I love all his drumming but I guess I don't particularly like cymbals). Anyway this leads to a funny story. This anti cymbal thing was most evident in the press following Discipline. On that tuor I saw KC at Rutgers U. It was general admission with no chairs. I got there early and was about 3 people away >from TL. During Indiscipline Bruford went wild going from one end of his kit to the other over and over and hitting every cymbal on the way. RF looked pretty disgusted. Stopped playing, leaned back, and waved his arm trying to get Bill's attention. Bill had a huge grin on his face and would not look at Fripp. Finally Bruford stopped his frenzey settled back into the song and looked Fripp's way. When he made eye contact he barked at Fripp like a wild dog. They both started laughing so hard they just about fell off their stools. Josh [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:10:34 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: Belew with Palmer/ Lighting thought. 1) I've heard a lot of mention of Adrian B's work with Bowie, Zappa, The Bears, Psychodots, Talking Heads, etc etc, but very little of his work with Robert Palmer, but I was surprised to see he was one of the guitarists on RP's live album "Maybe it's Live". Does he appear on any other Palmer albums? 2) A suggestion about the lighting at the Crimson shows (just something I'd like to see, but then again, I'd just like to see them live...). Tony, Adrian, Pat, Bill and Trey, brightly lit, with, between the drummers, a seemingly unlit Fripp. Suddenly, a Fripp soundscape begins, and the lighting on the five drops back to zero, revealing Fripp sitting there in the deepest of crimson lights... Or, during a song, if a searing Fripp line starts up, the red lighting wells up, just perceptibly, enough to be the glowing Crimson menace which his guitar sound undoubtedly can be... a sort of usually unseen force, occasionally rising to the surface to make its presence felt... James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz / steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 01:46:11 -0600 (CST) From: Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu Subject: Query:Let the power Fall I recently found in a used record store an unopened copy of _Let the Power Fall_. This is the original 81 release of the LP not the definitive edition. It is the US release, marketed through Jem. I was wondering about how much a thing like this might sell for, and if there might be someone amoung us who would want it. This brings up two further questions: 1. At one time I thought it extremely wrong to consider the material object (book, LP, Cd, etc.) as having any value because I thought that that deminished the value of the actual work of art that was captured in the object. I disliked collectors of original pieces, because they made themselves equal to card collectors and comic book collectors, while saying at the same time that the music on an LP wasn't what was of extreme value. Does anyone else see my point? Is the rarity of an LP make it more valuable when I can get the CD version anywhere for 11.99? Also, I have seen (as with the unopened album I have) that things that cant be listened to because they are selaled will still bring a bigger price, how does this add into this? The second question has to do with the nature of Elephant Talk. I have seen some people, when mentioning items they are looking for, saying that they do not wish to turn ET into a market place, but... I was wondering about the general feelings of the people here on elephant talk as to whether this is a good palce to do such business, or if it interupts what ET is really set up for. I really think that ET is an excellent way to get music that is hard to find around to others who would love to hear it. Perhaps this could be separated into a section of its own, like SPOILERS, QUERY, MISC. etc. I was thinking that it might also be possible to set up a page that lists addresses of those people who are willing to make copies of the rare things they own for other people. This page could be added to the web site. I myself have a couple of things that are semi rare, and wouldn't mind copying those things. If you think that the question about the value of collecting has no place on ET, then do email me directly, but for a group that concentrates on the integrity of the band which we like, it seems like the integrity of its listeners and their way of deciding the value of music is also something we should consider. thanks for your time, scott [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "BARRIE SILLARS" Organization: Phase Devices Limited Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 07:54:14 WET Subject: RFSQ CD You may be interested in an imported CD I picked up recently at a local record fare. It is a live recording by The Robert Fripp Quintet and is simply called "Soundscape". It is an Italian import and I assume was recorded there as the sleeve only states that it was recorded in November 1992. The RFSQ is the same line-up as that on "The Bridge Between" and contains versions of tracks culled from that album and other CGT and Guitar Craft recordings. Of real interest are the three lengthy soundscapes which are called "Soundscape", "Urbanscape" and (yes!) "Firescape". I don't believe the CD is a bootleg as the recording quality is quite exceptional. As good as the official live CD. Plus, the CD booklet is of a good standard with pictures of Robert Fripp and Trey Gunn. The full track listing and details are as follows:- Soundscape, Yamanashi Blues, Melrose Avenue, Kan-Non Power, Firescape, An Easy Way, Moving Force, Asturias, Walk Don't Run, Chromatic Fantasy, Contrapunctus, Eye of the Needle, Blockhead, Hope, Urbanscape, Pipeline, Kan-Non Power. Total playing time: 74 minutes. Label: Red Phantom, RPCD 1116 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.Barrie Sillars| | bsillars at phase dot com Senior Design | Phase Devices Limited | Vox:+44 01582 445000 Engineer | Dunstable, LU5 4TS, England | Fax:+44 01582 445060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 09:52:33 BST From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham) Subject: Re. Bruford albums In ET#206, Peter Hadley asked: Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? I remember a compiled album from '86 or so with a great cover, this may have been _Masterstrokes_, if so, is any unreleased material on it ? Masterstrokes is a compilation. The cover is a picture of Bruford in full flight at his kit - is this what you recall?. As well as stuff from the studio Bruford albums, there are a few cuts from the two Moraz/Bruford albums. I don't recall if there is anything from The Bruford Tapes or even perhaps the first UK album. Anyhow, when it was first released I checked it out and recall not buying it as it has no unreleased material. The Bruford Tapes is a recording of a live radio broadcast, with stuff from Feels Good To Me and One of a Kind. The guitarist is John Clarke. It's deliberately packaged to look like a bootleg, probably because the sound is fairly rough and ready. It has a nice feeling for the energy of the gig, but for me just doesn't quite gel. It's definitely not in the same league as the first two albums. I rank it slightly below Gradually Going Tornado, but that's probably because I wasn't as disappointed with that album as most people were. Clive Backham McDonnell Information Systems, UK email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "tim siefkes" Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 04:58:32 +0000 Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #206 > Question: What's BB's _Masterstrokes_ and _The Bruford Tapes_ ? > > I remember a compiled album from '86 or so with a great cover, this may > have been _Masterstrokes_, if so, is any unreleased material on it ? > The Bruford Tapes is a live release from the "Bruford" band line-up, with John Clark on guitar (following the departure of Allan Holdsworth). This was a good band to see live, and this documents it! Master Strokes is a compilation of selected tracks, from 1978-1985 mostly with the Bruford w/Holdsworth line-up (John Clark is on two tracks here), plus three tracks from the sessions with Patrick Moraz. If you already have the three mainstay Bruford albums (Feels Good..., One Of A Kind, ...Tornado) then you already have 80% or so of the material on Master Strokes, but it's nice to have these all one one place! Kind of a Bruford's "greatest hits" package with tracks such as "Hell's Bells", "Five G", "Beelzebub", "Sahara of Snow", "If You Can't Stand The Heat...", etc. EGCD67 Tim Siefkes timsks at visi dot com http://www.visi.com/~timsks Minneapolis, MN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 08:05:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Sergei Kantere Subject: KC in the Soviet Union Hi, my dear fellow ETers! First of all, I apologise for any deficiencies of my English, since I happen to be a Russian national. Let me throw in my 2 cents worth now, as many of you like to say ... which makes about 92 rubles at the current exchange rate . Back in the early 80ies, when I was first exposed to King Crimson, rock music was officially considered in the USSR to be a very dangerous capitalist mind-altering matter, capable of twisting the virgin souls of progressive soviet youth. Obviously, no western rock LPs or cassetes were officially available. Moreover, if those few lucky ones who were able to travel abroad dared to bring some back and it was discovered by the customs, they would most likely confiscate everything and make your chances to travel again negligibly slim. Those LPs were treated largely like dissident samizdat books. Given all that, there were _very_ few albums abound, and no information about new bands, new releases whatsoever. The black market price for a new LP was about 30% of the average monthly salary. If you were lucky to have a precious western LP those days, you would have played it only once - to put it on tape. After that, you would listen to the tape, and use the LP to exchange with other enthusiasts, either permanently, or to make a recording (sorry folks, I think these cases of piracy were excusable!). In the latter case, typically, the arrangements were made to swap albums for just enough time to make one recording to minimize chances of extensive wear of the precious LP's surface and also the possible deadly exposure to certain govermental agencies. Some people also preferred to avoid discussing such matters openly by phone and used a special cryptic language. It wasn't wise to handle those LPs in public places, so at the very least non-transparent plastic bags were used. I remember how in 1984 a friend of mine has violated the convention and stopped by my place on his way to return the "LTiA" to its owner, to let me tape it quickly. I didn't have any KC albums at that time, but had recordings of "ItCotCK" and "Red". I wasn't even aware of "LTiA"'s existence. I have put it on and it was the best music (save, probably, "Red") that I ever heard. Side A finished and I turned it over. My friend was already late for his meeting. But Lord - it's half of the side B to go yet, and the tape is running out!!! I realized that the album won't fit! And I won't have time to rerecord it and I'll probably NEVER see it again! The terror I experienced then was only matched this January on my journalistic assignment in Chechnya when the Russian jet has missed me with a rocket by 30 meters. And I'm still to have an orgasm to match the one I had when side B has finished a fraction of a second before the tape ran out. Maybe a KC gig... I now have all of the KC stuff on CDs, but I also still have that tape. If anyone from KC, or close to KC (Paul?), is reading this, please tell Mr. Fripp and other members that their following in the former Soviet Union is none less numerous or less devoted than in the rest of the world. And in a way, we're even more "hardened", if you know what I mean. Because your music meant more to us than to a Western listener; for me, it was about the only exposure to the freedom of spirit, if you forgive me the cliche - I wish my English was better... I know that it largely depends on management, but I hope that you could do Moscow one day. The likes of Elton John are doing huge venues here these days, and even the likes of David Byrne and Peter Hamill are doing smaller ones... I guarantee that despite the all the cultural barriers you would have an emotional feedback you would never come to expect. Mr. Fripp, thank you for changing my life forever. KC and CGT, I love you all. And I love all of you elephant talkers too, it's a great pleasure to hang around with you. By the way, could anyone help me understand the following remark by Mr. Fripp at the CompuServe conference: "An increasing number of musicians in Eastern Europe get in touch with me. One album. Probably best to buy it now?" I didn't get it. Thanks a million Toby for making all THIS possible. And sorry for the long post. Best regards, Sergei Kantere The Associated Press Moscow bureau, Russia ------------------------------------------------------------ | Mail: Sergei Kantere | E-mail: skantere at ap dot org | | c/o AP Moscow | Home phone: +7-095-442-5763 | | 50 Rockefeller Plaza | Work phone: +1-212-621-7917 | | New York, NY 10020 | (NY #, rings in Moscow) | ------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: E#KIRKD at ccmail dot ceco dot com Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 08:30:39 CST Subject: A few thoughts on items in ET #205: > Chris Mogul says: "Congratulations! I've just read the Ugliest interview/conversation ever! Probably the fans of Metallica could have done better. I wonder what's the actual difference between KC fans and Al Bano & Romina Powell ones? And if there's any, when does that show? Folks, I'm astonished! Did you ever think what KC thinks about you after such a conversation?" Those of us who were there (Hot Wired - 6/26/95) would probably agree with me that there was a lot of silliness going on, and most of it was coming from the KC Five (Fripp must have justifiably figured this would not be the best use of his time). It would seem that Mastelotto and Gunn made the most quips, while Levin and Belew tried to answer some questions. Bruford didn't seem to be participating much. I know I asked a number of questions, none of which were answered, but it did seem that they were purposely answering the sillier ones. Those of us in the Cafe were certainly disappointed. > Bruce writes: "It seems bizarre that only now, 26 years on (egads), comparisons are being made between the Beatles and KC." As a matter of fact in the YPG and again in the FbF booklet is the following remark about KC: November 8, 1969 The Scotsman. Alastair Clark: "King Crimson are what the Beatles might just conceivably have been had they decided not to regress into dittyland." If you read some of what comes before, you'll see other Beatles references. So, the comparison has been made for quite a while - perhaps sometimes the similarities are just more pronounced than others. > Keelo laments: "The concert listed at Poplar Creek, IL (Chicago) for the Three tour never happened. It was cancelled DAY OF THE SHOW!!! Very pissed off, my fellow Windy City fans and I were as we cruised the concert parking lot screaming for justice. I couldn't forgive the boys until I saw them in BA last year." A friend at work told me she "went" to that concert, but that when they got to the Poplar Creek parking lot they were turning people away because of a power failure. A most unfortunate injustice to diehard crimheads for sure, but hardly the fault of "the boys". By the way, they started tearing Poplar Creek down last week, so that the New World Theater could exist without competition. What a great shame! It was a fine half covered/half outdoor venue. The New World Theater is a monument to the dinosaur music industry, certainly not to the music. Finally, > Kristi Pozza muses: "I was first introduced to KC by my older brother when I was fourteen. Discipline and In the Court of... quickly became musical staples. Much to our parents consternation." I was a little younger when my brother introduced me to KC, but you know, my parents actually quite liked a lot of the music. I recall listening to "Starless" on the stereo in our living room as the winter sun sank below the distant horizon, and the sky turned great hues of gold, pink and purple, and my father would sometimes hum/sing along during the opening section. When we went to the Frejus show in 1982, my parents came along. And why not? King Crimson has made some very beautiful, powerful, and powerfully beautiful music over the past 26 years. Just a few thoughts, Daniel Kirkdorffer e#kirkd at ccmail dot ceco dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:10:58 -0400 From: ranger at haven dot ios dot com Subject: Suspect sound mix in concert It seems a consistent comment from most reviewers here on ET is that the sound mix during the tour was not stellar. I attended both NYC and the NJ shows and also felt the mix was uninspired. Nothing at all like the Sylvian/Fripp show in NYC a few years ago - that was a stunning combination of power and clarity. The simple question is why was the sound this way? Anyone in the band or behind the scenes care to comment? It seemed like the soundman's only solution to a mix problem was to occasionally raise buried sounds, not lower the overwhelming ones... Greg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]