Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk #201 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 201, Friday, 23 June 1995 Today's Topics: Re: Crowd Behavior youngest KC concert attendee Fripp solo concerts, etc. house music Re: Adrian Belew/solo stuff Jazziz magazine and CGT Ride Grovel youngest KC concert attendee Warr Guitar/Toby Invite Robert Fripp & the Ambient scene Wisconsin KC gig Minneapolis Show Re: Marine 475 My Night at the Albert Muir Interview and ET indexes Tales from the punchbowl King Crimson Screen Saver Fresh Air on NPR Fresh Air yippee The Acoustic Adrian Belew Album Number of ET subscribers re:10-month-old-babiesattendingKCconcerts Crowd noise My first contribution to ET USA Debate Sleepless GIG REVIEW AND DISSERTATION: King Crimson in Minneapolis/June 16, 1995 GIG REVIEW: Roseland Theatre: 6/20 GIG REVIEW: Seattle GIG REVIEW: Denver 6/18 TICKETS: San Diego TICKETS: Wanted for any San Francisco show [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 13:23:53 EDT From: jh at cadre dot com (Joe Hartley) Subject: Re: Crowd Behavior >jh at cadre dot com (Joe Hartley) wrote: >and bellowing between songs seems more a part of applause than >an attempt to remind performers what their names are. Check your attributions carefully, folks! I didn't write this part. I did, however, write this: >When he stopped, some wanker from row ZZ in the top balcony >shouts out "Hey, Bob-by!" Fripp looks up, mouths "Bobby??", >shrugs, and goes back into the wallpaper-shredding mode. >Pretty funny. To which Michael Kelly replied: >And the funny part was.......??????? Who *ever* calls him Bobby except maybe his mum? If I were to meet him in a coffee shop (and I have!), it would be "Mr Fripp" or, if I were feeling a trifle informal, "Robert". The humor was also in Mr Fripp's reaction to a boor in the back row. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Beth Ustas Spellman Subject: youngest KC concert attendee Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Hello! Strange topic to be my first post, but here goes: Well, I think I may have the youngest KC attendee... I was at the Boston show 7.5 months pregnant, I think that is probably going to be hard to beat (unless you don't count babies until they are born!). I must say that the little one was squirming about quite a bit at first, but then settled down. I'm sure it was dancing with delight and not because of the loud music. We both enjoyed the show!!! ;) thanks, Beth [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:54:26 -0400 (EDT) From: claire shindler Subject: Fripp solo concerts, etc. I heard that Mr. Fripp and the Cal. Guitar Trio are going to be doing some concerts this fall. The only dates I know are Sept. 1 and 2 in Allentown, PA at the Paul Empie Theater (Muhlenberg College). Does anyone know any other dates they'll be playing, esp. ones in Connecticut, Massachusetts or Rhode Island? I missed KC in Boston (reading all the comments here didn't make me feel any better :) ), and have to do something to make up for it. Thanks for any info you can give. Pete [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:47:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher Of The Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: house music In Minneapolis (and in other cities, as near as I can tell), I am almost sure that the music playing before the show is from Adrian Belew's upcoming album _Guitar Is An Orchestra_ (I'm not sure if I'm getting the album title exactly right), on which he triggers all sorts of orchestral instruments from his guitar. The music between CGT and KC is Tony Levin's _World Diary_. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 16:27:04 EDT From: david at porsche dot visix dot com (David Charlap) Subject: Re: Adrian Belew/solo stuff BBELLAS at idicl1 dot idi dot oclc dot org asks about Adrian Belew's solo accoustic album. I have it. It's called "The Accoustic Adrian Belew". It's currently on the "Adrian Belew Presents" label. I think it's one of Geffen's labels. I got mine at a Belew solo concert (at Club Bene' in Sayreville, New Jersey) where he signed it. I don't know if it's in stores or not. I heard a rumor that it will be re-released on a major label for public sale. As for the track listing, I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I do know "Matei Kudasai" is on it. I don't think there are any other Crimson songs on this album. As for finding Crimson albums, it's probably your area. I always found lots of them in New Jersey and New York, and they're not hard to find where I'm living now (the Washington DC area). All but the new ones (VROOM and THRAK) are on the EG label. I think this means they're imported from the UK, so you might have to locate a store that deals in imports. That said, check out Tony Levin's "World Diary" album. It's only available through mail order. I think the price is $15 plus $2.50 shipping and handling. The address is: Papa Bear Records, box 498, Woodstock NY 12498. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:19:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: (ET Submission) Jazziz magazine and CGT Incidentally, the latest Jazziz magazine has a big fusion retrospective (which starts from a discussion of the sublime "Bitches' Brew" and goes from there. KC is mentioned tangentially but a lot of other projects are discussed more with some commentary by Bruford. Wish they had also mentioned some "mainstream" jazz performers who nontheless have mastered rhythmic/tonal play (I've seen Dave Brubeck twice in the past year, and, at age 75, he's _still_ the master -- I mean, his two hands can be in completely different and ever-changing rhythyms, while his feet "keep time" (quite a spectacle) and he doesn't even seem to notice. . . . ) Incidentally -- loved the CGT (except for their "Toccata and Fugue in D minor") but wish they had an audience outside KC fans! I mean, they shouldn't have to play parts of 21st Cent. Schizoid Man to get the crowd to notice 'em! -Sanjay _______________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy skrishna at opal dot tufts dot edu skrishna at diamond dot tufts dot edu _______________________________________________________________________________ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:21:57 -0700 From: James Livingston Subject: Ride Grovel I'm looking for a ride to and from the Warfield from the East Bay (pref. Berkeley) on Sunday Night. If you can help out let me know...I don't want to let my concert enjoyment be hampered by BART worries. Thanks in advance. -james jamesliv at ocf dot berkeley dot edu (510)549-0849 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:11:50 -0600 From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) Subject: youngest KC concert attendee Mark Koehler: > Well, the title may lie with someone else now. But assuming KC make to > Atlanta in the fall as promised, our daugther Crimson (it's on the birth > certificate) will attend a KC show at 10 or 11 months. My daughter attended a Jean-Luc Ponty show a month before birth. She doesn't remember it now, but she was certainly dancing the whole show, and her mom will testify to that. -- -paul pmartz at es dot com Evans & Sutherland "Be bright! Feel right! Take Eno!" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 19:08:50 -0400 From: WarrM at aol dot com Subject: Warr Guitar/Toby Invite Hi Everyone, Toby wrote me the following message; <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >To: WarrM at aol dot com >Hi Mark, you posted a brief note (in ET191) about your instrument. I >wondered if you had a more detailed description (perhaps a standard >marketing thing?) that you could send to ET -- I know a lot of people's >curiosity has been stimulated. >Thanks >Toby <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, I thank Toby for the personal invite. Second, I thank Toby for the great job that he does moderating this list! My name is Mark Warr. The company is "Warr Guitars", and the instrument model that Toby is referring to is the "Integrate". This is a 12-string touch-style enhanced combination bass and guitar with a powerful bass tone and a singing melody. You have several options of construction styles; bolt-on neck, set-in neck, and a neck-through-body. All three styles have their own unique sound types. You can play the Integrate in either an upright (Stick-style) or horizontal (guitar-style) position. Use any technique: tap, strum, pluck, snap, or pop. You can play multiple simultaneous musical lines. If you see King Crimson in concert, you'll be able to see Trey Gunn play the Integrate using various techniques. EXCITING! I use top-of-the line hardware such as Sperzal machine heads and a Wilkinson adjustable bridge. The electronics are custom Bartolini 18-volt active pickups. You have many distinctive tonal colors to choose from using tone-selector switches. I tune the electronics to each individual instrument. The concept for this is, each instrument has its own characteristics due to the types of woods used, mass, rigidity, etc.. Therefore, different "sweet spots" exist on each individual instrument. I tune the electronics to accentuate these sweet spots. The result is well worth the extra effort it takes to tune. Like most musicians, I'm a guitarist in search of the perfect tone, who became fascinated with the art of wood and construction combinations and their influence on tone! All the instruments that I make are of hand-picked quarter-sawn woods. The necks range from three to nine piece laminates using the "tone-woods". This is the life tone of the instrument. For example: Using Bubinga, wenge in the neck and body will produce a very dark, strong low mid-range. The highs tend to be compressed. Changing the body to lacewood and wenge tends to have sweet, even highs and midrange. The bass is very defined. The art of combining different tone woods is a fascinating study. I tend to be a fanatic in this area, but that's were my heart is. I use a long list of exotic hardwoods and will be happy to talk to anyone interested in tonal characteristics of wood. The overall design is beautiful! The new body styles that I just released are sleek and sexy! Thank You again Toby, For product info and pictures, contact; Mark Warr E-mail: WarrM at aol dot com Warr Guitars 6933 Keynote St. Long Beach, CA. 90808 310 421-7293 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:25:03 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: Robert Fripp & the Ambient scene >From: David Kirkdorffer > >Robert Fripp plays with principal Orb members of the FFWD cd. This is a >really cool CD (but note -- this is more like Eno/Fripp collaborations than >King Crimson). I'd read this project was originally to be released under >the name "Orbert." In many ways, Fripp has been active in various ways in >this "Ambient scene" and there's a Future Sound of London re-mix of >Darshan. He also turns up on the "final guest-list" to the Orb Live 93 and >is credited on the 1994 FSOL "Lifeforms" release on a piece called "FLAK" >(title sounds familiar, eh?). Don't forget also Robert's work with Ambient/Dance band The Grid, on their two albums 4-5-6 and Evolver. Pretty good stuff. James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz / steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 07:43:57 -0400 From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Wisconsin KC gig Thank you so much for making me laugh so hard. UNBELIEVABLE!!! Your contribution to ET was a scream and really helped puncture the seriousness with which we all take KC and which sometimes they seem to take of themselves. My personal favorite was the choice of "Sweet Home Alabama" for the long workout song. Brilliant! Even hours after reading it, I just think about it and crack up. Thanks also to Toby for including it in the leadoff spot in ET 200. Hope Captain Bob and the boys read it, laughed and appreciated the humor. Good job. Arnie Schulberg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 08:06 CDT From: trex at skypoint dot com (Ryan Sutter) Subject: Minneapolis Show About 5 years ago I was talking to a friend of my fathers who used to be a hippie and had pretty good taste in music. We were discussing the pros and cons of various art rock bands. He is mainly a fan of The Allman Brothers but he knew the prog rock scene too. I was just getting into it (at the age of 16) and I had an extensive collection of Floyd, a budding Peter Gabriel collection, all of the Moody Blues, a little Tull and Brain Salad Surgery by ELP. He informed me that what I ought to do was go looking for an album by a band called King Crimson. The album was called Court of the Crimson King. I looked and looked, but to no avail. I found a copy of Lizard, bought it, listened to it once, and set it aside. I looked more and found a copy of Beat, doing likewise. I wasn't real impressed on either score. One day, a year or two later, I was perusing the selection at a local record store and I headed into the CD section although I did not yet own a CD player. There, gleaming, freshly re-released was COTCK. I immediately bought it. I headed over to a friends house to listen to it and was bowled over. The mellotrons, Sinfield lyrics, even Greg Lake! It was too much. I had to tape it to listen to it and I jealously gaurded the CD. I re-listened to Lizard and Beat and to my surprise enjoyed them both tremendously. Needless to say, my Crimson obsession had begun. In due course I became owner of and fanatic devotee to all things Crimson. I loved the 80's albums, the 70's albums, the 60's albums and Red became my number one favorite album in the entire universe. I paid $35 for an import copy of Cheerful Insanity of G G & F. I got a CD player. I wept bitterly over the fact that the Scarlet Prince would never play live for my ears. I had to console myself with the LOG, LOCG, F&E, AB, and the like. The only time Crimson ever played in Minnesota was at First Avenue in 1983. I had missed the boat. A little more than 2 years ago I heard a radio interview with Fripp discussing the reformation of KC. I still have it on tape. I almost wet my pants. When the new albums came out I bought them and salivated. This is the best Crimson yet. The teeth of the 70's band combined with the energy and dynamism of the 80's band. When I found out they were coming to MN, I ordered tickets that same day. There is little I can probably add to other accounts of the show that will no doubt be written. It would read much like the accounts of the other shows on this tour. CGT was tremendous, playing Pipeline as an encore after the Fugue (my brother and I cracked up). Crimson almost shook the State Theater to the ground starting off with Vroom Code and keeping the intensity up all night. Dinosaur, Red, LTiA, Indiscipline were highlights. At one point during a quiet moment in B'Boom I believe, some guy yelled out "Drop dead you jerks!". I turned to my brother and said "Appparently not a big fan of improvisation, eh?" It was annoying, but it struck me as humorous. I had a great time. I wanted my picture taken in front of the marquee with King Crimson listed on it but by the time we had gotten to the car for a camera and come back after the show they had changed it to Brett Butler (Grace Under Fire, appearing the following night). The biggest thing about the show to me was the new appreciation I gained for Crimson's live recordings. I could never really get into them before, but now, having experienced the King, I've been listening to the Great Deceiver and the live disk from FBF, & USA and loving it. Thanks guys, if you're reading this. You were incredible. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 08:53:24 EDT From: Robert Bruce Subject: Re: Marine 475 Although I'm now a dislocated Brit living in the US, my last job in the UK was dealing with the tax affairs of Lloyds Underwriters. aglwsa1 at peabody dot sct dot ucarb dot com (Gary L. Wright) wrote: >Marine 475 Lyrics > >My wife has worked in the commercial insurance industry for over 10 years. >I showed her some of the discussion which was taking place about the lyrics >to "Marine 475". She tells me that the numbers are called CAT numbers, for >CATastrophic losses. It seems that Lloyd's of London assigns these number >to specific catastrophic events and then all subsequent claims against >these events are able to use that CAT number as a reference. So, each of >the numbers in the lyrics can be thought of as separate catastrophic >events. This would seem to be in line with the general theme of VROOOM & >THRAK. This is pretty much on track, but not quite there. Every Syndicate trading at Lloyds has a number, and is generally referred to by that number and the type of business it principally conducts--so that Marine 475 would be a syndicate writing Marine insurance. It would be fairly easy for someone currently working at Lloyds to find out the significance of the syndicates listed in the song--the "Blue Book" would show whether Robert or Adrian are "names" on the listed syndicates--but my feeling is that they are probably syndicates that have gone under in the recent scandals, or have been hit by catastrophic losses. Can anyone shed any further light? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Robert G. W. Bruce | Phone: (703) 845-6048 * * Computer Resource Associate | Fax: (703) 845-6083 * * Northern Virginia Community College | nvbrucr at nvmusic dot vccs dot edu * * Alexandria Campus | or carob at cpcug dot org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:06:52 +0000 From: Tim Regester Subject: My Night at the Albert Organization: Telephone Information Services plc Why have I seen no reviews of the Albert Hall gigs (the place rather than the man for our less enlightened compatriots). I was at the second night and was as gobsmacked as the first time I saw King Crimson in 1980. two funny points... A comment made by a kid who strolled into the box I was sitting in " i thought these guys were meant to be good their guitars keep going out of phase and the drummers aren't in time!!!" Yes, well, takes all sorts I suppose. and " They're not as loud as Bon Jovi were" by some poor sob with him. All I can do is quote Viv Stanshall and say "Good Grief" Where in the Smoke can I get a copy of the Great Deceiver. Anyone have any ideas? How about David Carradine to play Adrain Belew. Tqhis is my first posting here and I find a lot of the stuff here interesting ao keep it up cheers Tim Regester [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: E#KIRKD at ccmail dot ceco dot com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 09:55:51 CST Subject: MISC: Muir Interview and ET indexes > In ET#200 Malcolm Humes writes: Folks have asked about Jamie Muir a few issues back (...) I think the interview with Muir from circa 1991-2 in Ptloemaic Terrascope was perhaps uploaded to this mailing list in the past too (...) Any chance someone might eventually install a Web searchable index to past issue archives of Discipline/Elephant Talk? It'd make it easier to find stuff like the prior info on Muir lurking in there. I say someone since I suspect Toby hasn't the time to keep up and that anyone would be welcome to help with this... Glad you asked! I have been working on both an index of subjects and an index of Elephant "Talkers". I have indexed subjects through ET#153. The index is broken down into the following groupings: I DISCOGRAPHY (Postings related to various discographies) II RECORD/TRACK REVIEWS/OPINIONS (Postings related to various releases by various artists) III VIDEO/TV/RADIO REVIEWS/OPINIONS (Postings related to reviews and opinions about video, TV or radio material) IV COVERS (Postings related to covers of King Crimson tracks) V TICKET, TOUR AND RELEASE INFO (Postings related to ticket, tour date and impeding release dates) VI GIG REVIEWS (Postings related to Gig reviews) VII MUSICIAN/BAND NEWS, VIEWS AND INTERVIEWS (Postings related to news, views and interviews about various artists) VIII MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSIONS (Postings related to miscellaneous themes, threads, ideas, and opinions) IX TRIVIA, FACTS AND ANECDOTES (Postings related to matters of trivia, fact, and other whatnot) X MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS (Postings about various musical instruments or musical techniques and terms) XI LYRICS/TRANSCRIPTIONS (Postings of lyrics, or music transcriptions) XII LIST, ADDRESSES, MAIL ORDERS (Postings with information about other lists, useful addresses, or mail order information) XIII ADMINISTRIVIA (Administrative info related to the newsletter) It is slow going but I'm getting there! I have indexed a list of Elephant "Talkers" through ET#200 (so I'm up to date on that one). This one would help you find all Robert Fripp, Tony Levin or Malcolm Humes postings for example. The Muir interview I believe you were thinking of can be found in Discipline #122. A permanent home for these indexes has yet to be determined, but I am willing to maintain them wherever they are stored. For now each index is in ASCII form only, but with a little effort, they could be converted to HTML (anyone interested in helping me do that?). I welcome any comments or suggestions for these indexes. Until they are made available to all (perhaps through the ET Web site), I'd be happy to make what I have available to anyone interested (if I get too many requests hopefully we can make them available to the masses sooner instead of mailing copies to hundreds of people). Long live the King! [ Thanks to Daniel for the _amazing_ contribution. His indices will indeed soon be available on the ET web pages -- Toby ] Daniel Kirkdorffer e#kirkd at ccmail dot ceco dot com - Happiness is just a state of mind - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:14:42 -0400 From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott) Subject: Tales from the punchbowl IMO the new album from Primus is GREAT! I wouldn't mention it on this list/group except that i detect strong KC influences in both the drums and Guitar (esp. the guitar) So all you fellow Crimson fans might want to check it out. I guess they have a video for Winona's Big Brown Beaver so watch for it. well it's goodbye. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:02:00 -0400 From: Lanay dot A dot Garwig at BLCLIMT1 dot SMBAUSCH dot LANGATE dot sprint dot com Subject: King Crimson Screen Saver Along with a recent t-shirt purchase, I was intrigued enough to buy a King Crimson Screen Saver that Possible Productions sells for $11.99. It consists of 2 3.5" diskettes which you install under Windows 3.1. The physical package, overall, is clever, using a CD case to contain the diskettes. The screens come from album cover artwork and more recent promotional- type artwork from Thrak. There are a number of display options so that you may customize the presentation. It's put out by RockSlide, Inc. I've never had a screen saver before this one- I guess I waited for the right one to come along! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:33:57 -0400 From: Fiatspider at aol dot com Subject: Fresh Air on NPR I would love to see Terry Gross do an interview with any of the guys in Crimson. And /or a review of their work. Maybe some encouragement would help. E-mail directly at FRESHAIR at WHYY dot ORG They have occasionaly used Crimson for music 'buttons' and filler. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:04:09 -0400 From: pcallo at vt dot edu (Paul A. Callo) Subject: Fresh Air Attention all USA ETers (and those who get NPR overseas) The Email address for Fresh Air (For those who don't know, this is an interview program hosted by Terry Gross out of Phildelphia. This is very intellectual program on the arts politics etc. If you don't listen to this program you should, it's quite good) is FRESHAIR at WHYY dot ORG They have interviewed a myriad of musicians such as Bob Mould & Nick Lowe but the producers don't find KC interesting enough. (They have interviewed some individuals in the band but nothing recently) SO if you, like myself, would like to hear an interview of KC on this program maybe we can send them a few reasons why they should. >From ???@??? Thu Jun 15 09:49:52 1995 To: "Riccio, Vincent" From: pcallo at vt dot edu (Paul A. Callo) Subject: Re: Yes it works, what gives... Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: I didn't get an error message, it's something Mike got. I guess that's what happens when you don't know what you're doing. Have Fun! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:12:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "j.serdy" Subject: yippee I get to make my first elephant talk contribution. I got 177-200 from toby himself sittin in dis fat pine folder called elephant_talk where I collected em, and I remember when I first found out about this mailing list from alt.music.progressive I went squirrelling around finding all the back issues. it's cool there's been 200 yippee let's go for 2000 what turned me on to king crimson. I think it was my friend tj he played me discipline when it came out and I got to see them live at the mann in philly in 84 during the yellow period. I like all this noisy new thrak nonsense. the show I saw at the tower in philly not too long ago was a blast. crimso is like the dead now, with space, drums, jams. why not bring back I talk to the wind or fracture or cat food! god I would love to see adrian do cat food. that would rule. adrian could do a messy midi piano sound with his geetar and the guys could back up as a funky jazz combo I like the discussions here. every time one of these comes in it brightens my 'net reading. hi y'all :) happy to be here -------------- scary's experimental sig http://www.netaxs.com/~scary/home.html blah blah blah, yackety schmackety -------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 18:14:07 -0400 From: Bongocat at aol dot com Subject: The Acoustic Adrian Belew Album There was some questions about Adrian's solo acoustic album so here is all the info I have. I bought my copy in Burlington, Vermont during Adrian's acoustic show Oct. 1993. Adrian was doing shows with just an acoustic guitar and had the audience ask questions between songs. That was the first time I had confirmation that Crimson was returning. At the end of the show he mentioned he was selling his "White Album" to pay for the tour and said that he would sign any copies. He also mentioned that the tour would be the only way to get a copy. For those interested here is the track listing: The Lone Rhinoceros Peace On Earth The Man In The Moon The Rail Song If I fell Burned By The Fire We Make Matte Kudasai Dream Life Old Fat Cadillac Crying Martha Adored The album was recorded at his home on Aug. 9th and 10th, 1993. The show was great and informative. The album is well recorded and is a lot of fun. He did play a piece that was going to be a Crimson song, but I don't recognize it. Anyone else see the tour? Chris Rielly [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:17:06 +1000 From: "Dudley A. Horque" Subject: Number of ET subscribers I sure hope that Robert and company notice that there are over ten times as many ET subscribers in Australia than in Argentina. We have missed out for far too long. 8-( ================================================================================ Dudley Arthur Horque Systems Analyst P.O. Box 199 Voice: +61 (54) 447271 LaTrobe University, Bendigo Bendigo,Vic 3550 Fax: +61 (54) 447777 dudleyh at bendigo dot latrobe dot edu dot au AUSTRALIA [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:12:51 +0100 From: Julian Parry Subject: re:10-month-old-babiesattendingKCconcerts (1) In ET200, a guy mentions that he intends to bring his new-born baby to a KC concert in Autumn. This would surely be a virtually unbeatable record as far as the youngest KC concert attendee is concerned, barring sperm, eggs and a twinkle in the eye. However, could I gentle dissuade the gentleman concerned from doing so?: In the early 1980's, the loudest "rock" concert I attended was Frank Zappa. The second loudest was KC. Although Ive since taken a 10-year break from such concerts and have not had the opportunity to see KC this year, I imagine that KC are still capable of "shredding wallpaper at x miles". I believe your daughter Crimson could be stressed by the event. (2) Did you consider naming her "Thrak"? (3) I thought AB's wife was called Margaret, not Martha. Have I missed something? Julian Parry. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:01:18 -0400 From: DnTMan at aol dot com Subject: Crowd noise cello, With all the controversy & chit-chat over crowd noise lately, I'd like to toss in my easy money's worth. After listening to the Great Deceiver box set many times I have come to the conclusion that I do somewhat enjoy some of the yellings of various voiciferous fans. I believe it is disc 3 that starts off with someone screaming, "Billy Cobham eat your heart out!" And elsewhere, "C'mon Fripp!" and of course my favorite which also pops up on the Frejus video, some guy (could it be the same one?) sounding intoxicated pleading, "Court of the Crimson *King*!" - yeah right, good luck buddy! It sounds so ridiculous on GD right after some phenomenal playing that would knock most people unconcious by it's sheer ferocity and funnier still when yelled in '82. Dude, better give up on that one! Oh well just some thoughts I've had anticipating the three of a perfect LA shows coming up. See ya there! (and if no one screams for Court otCK, I just may have to) ;>) Thanks Toby & Ken! -TOM S. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:42:11 -0500 From: fpaul at wimsey dot com (Frank Paul) Subject: My first contribution to ET Hello fellow ET subscribers. I've been lurking around in the background for some time now, greatly enjoying the lively gossip and insight (and some times, strangely compulsive interest in certain obscuritieqs, such as KC soundtracks for adult films, etc). Thought it's about time to contribute my first two-bits worth. Anyways, I caught the KC live show at the Orpheum theatre here in Vancouver last night (June 21) - had the great fortune of a row 6 centre seat which put me almost eyeball to eyeball with Adrian. Really brought back memories of their last show here in '84. Trey was front right with Pat on riser behind. Adrian front R with Fripp quietly behind in the distance (avoiding the spotlight completely). Tony front L with Bill behind. FABULOUS show - half the DISCIPLINE album was played (with the requisite audience participation on the title song), plus all the major bits from THRAK and a healthy dollop of '70s material (Red, Another Red Nightmare, etc). Oddly, nothing was perf. from the latter 2 '80s albums. I thought the mix was intense - almost so much so that the band seemed on the verge of imploding from its own raw energy a few times - particularly on Elephant Talk. Needless to say, they were VERY well received by the audience - the screaming applause didn't begin to abate till the end of two very substantial encores. My fave guitar combo - CGT - put on a similarly fabulous show. Has anybody else caught the quotation from "21st Century Shizoid Man" they slipped into "Train from Lamey Suite" off their most recent disc? Rather clever touch I thought. All in all, the ultimate live performance of contemporary guitar oriented music. Only Frank Z and John McG. could awe-inspire me to a similar extent. Anyways, enough chit-chat - now for the real reason for this transmission. In addition to being a huge KC fan (but not because of), I am an avid Chapman Stick player, and am very interested in corresponding with any other Stick counterparts. I do lessons with Frank Jolliffe in New Jersey who is totally AWESOME on jazz Stick (and a great teacher to boot) - I'd strongly urge anybody with a serious interest in this instrument to check him out. I am also on the verge of acquiring a WARR TOUCHSTYLE guitar - which, in case anybody doesn't realize, is that Sticklike instrument with a body that Trey happens to be playing this tour. I need some advice on amps and effects though, so anybody who wants to drop a line, please do so at fpaul at wimsey dot com. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "BARRIE SILLARS" Organization: Phase Devices Limited Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:00:01 WET Subject: USA Debate Scanning some previous issues of the Newsletter I came across some discussions about the validity of releasing "USA" in the light of the the 4CD box set "The Great Deceiver" (TGD). It was stated in one posting that there was no point in having this re-released as all the tracks bar "Asbury Park" were recorded at Providence, June 30th 1974. I don't think this is right as the version of "Easy Money " for instance, on the 1st CD of TGD is stated as being recorded at Providence and is completely different to that on USA. The version on USA has a wonderful improvisational section after the 1st section of "Easy Money", which continuous to a fade out. In fact this improvisation is similar in form to the last track on the 4th CD of TGD, called "It Is for You, But Not for Me". But for my money the improvisation on "USA" is far superior. The whole thing seems to progress in a neater fashion (it actually sounds as if the band "get it right"), climaxing with Fripp sounding as if he strangles the guitar just prior to the fade out. Even the 1st side tracks like "Lament" sound different to that on the Providence set of TGD. I have a feeling that this version of "Easy Money" and possibly some of the other tracks were recorded at the last gig at Central Park, July 1st. Maybe all this has been discussed before, but anyway the point I am trying to make, in a round about way is that "USA" SHOULD be released on CD, if only for this improvisation and preferably without the fade-out. Of course it goes without saying that "USA" has the added bonus of "Asbury Park". There, I have said my piece. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.Barrie Sillars| | bsillars at phase dot com Senior Design | Phase Devices Limited | Vox:+44 01582 445000 Engineer | Dunstable, LU5 4TS, England | Fax:+44 01582 445060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 03:13:01 -0700 From: Greg Quesnel <71764 dot 2562 at compuserve dot com> Organization: National Message Center, Inc. Subject: Sleepless There are at least two released mixes of Sleepless on the Three of a Perfect Pair disc. Why is this and where might I purchase the good (apparently Bob Clearmountain) mix? Many thanks! Greg Quesnel [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 21:37:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Andre LaFosse Subject: GIG REVIEW AND DISSERTATION: King Crimson in Minneapolis/June 16, 1995 A King Crimson concert isn't quite a rock gig, nor is it exactly a classical performance, but rather somewhere in the middle, with regards to both the onstage and offstage environment. Huge blocks of electronic noise, blasted through a rock-approved PA (when I can feel my *eyelids* rattling, I know that there is considerable bass being generated), delivered with symphonic arrangement and virtuosic precision; on June 16, the Minneapolis State Theater was located somewhere between CBGB's and La Scala. The California Guitar Trio opened the evening's performance with the unenviable task of playing to a crowd which was, in many cases, looking for seats or talking to other members of itself throughout the duration of the set. In spite of this, the music was an immaculate intersection of constantly shifting styles and textures, expertly played and powerfully delivered -- or, as one young musicologist in the audience was compelled to anounce during one pause, "YOU FUCKIN' *RAWK*!!!" Crimson took the stage one at a time, in the order of Levin - Bruford - Fripp - Mastaletto - Gunn - Belew, engaging in a cumulative free-improv section. This was an unexpected and intriguing method of opening the concert; it was also unintentionally hilarious as Fripp's musical entry went unapplauded due to his lack of illumination. Throughout the set, the one concept that kept being driven home regarding this edition of Crimson was one of raw, immense power. If the Discipline band dealt in shifting rhythmic plateaus, and the Red band with dark, jagged explorations into the improvisational unknown, then the THRAK ensemble is, at its most effective moments, an inexorable wall of sound, albiet one that stops on a dime with uncanny precision. It is likely of little coincidence that the most impressive section of the set was the middle, which leaned towards the muscular side of the band's reportoire. "Red" was almost unbearable in its intensity, threatening to fly apart at times under the stress of its increasing tension. "Thrak," which on the _VROOM_ E.P. seemed a bit unfocused and meandersome, and on the full-length CD somewhat abbreviated and tamed, put both of its recorded versions to shame in concert, marrying the power of the first with the precision of the second. As has been mentioned, the open free-improv section gave birth to many of the evening's most interesting moments. Earlier pieces such as "Indiscipline" were transformed into altogether more monstrous mutations of their former selves. Against this harsh backdrop, some of the lighter material seemed strangely placed. This sort of bludgeoning juggernaut is not a task easily arrived at, and it is to the band's credit that the perfection of the formula appeared in concert in a substabtially more evolved form than was documented on record half a year ago. The interplay between Bill Bruford and Pat "Man of 1,000 Last Names" Mastaletto was one of the more readilly apparent triumphs of the two albums; surprisingly, it has developed even further in concert: "B'boom" was considerably more developed live than on record; "Sex" was enlivened by a slew of new percussion sounds and a groove a mile deep; "Red" staved off the monotony it flirted with on earlier recorded versions through growing rhythmic density; the beginning of "Talking Drum" was practically a "B'boom Part II." The two-drummer aspect of the double trio formation, as has been acknowledged by the band itself, has been amongst the most successful of the lineup's endeavors. Less so seems to be the two-bass concept; with Levin holding down a low-end foundation that could give Atlas reason to quit his day job, Trey Gunn's prodigious talents seemed to spend the majority of the evening looking for a spare crack to squeeze into. With Belew assuming the lion's share of the soloing space (and acquiting himself admirably, playing at a level well beyond anything I had come to expect from him) and Fripp spending at least half of his time on guitar synthesizer and much of the other half invoking dense chordal guitar textures, Gunn often seemed to be doubling other parts (though less audibly) or adding minute, discreet fills whenever there was room. As has been evidenced by his work on _The Bridge Between_ (which seems destined to become the lost classic of the first slew of DGM releases), the Sylvian/Fripp albums, and particularly his solo album, Gunn is a certified virtuoso with a unique artistic contribution to make. At the moment, he seemes very much to be King Crimson IV's version of David Cross, trying to find a space for himself amidst the cacophony of the rest of the band. Currently, the concept of a "double trio" is still more accurate as a description of instrumental content than of instrumental function in King Crimson 1995, and Gunn's underutilization is exemplary of the room for refinement which exists in the group's arrangement. Furthermore, the band's overall identity seems to still be in the gestating stages. Unlike the original linup or the '80s version of the band, both of which seemed to spring forth fully-formed and then fall into pattterns of repeating themselves, King Crimson 1995 still seems to be searching for its definitive voice. With the single most musically capable lineup of its career at its disposal, and the musucal maturity of sevveral decade's woorth of work under its member's collective belts, the band seems to have an intriguing problem on its hands: When you can play anything, what do you play? The two recordings which have been offered have been first steps in answering that question, and the tour seems to suggest that the band has some definite ideas, but the definitive statement from this band has yet to be made. A recent review which said that the current lineup draws on the editions of the band's past without finding its own voice was perhaps inaccurate on the critical side of things, but it is true that the current edition of the band has more in common with the LTIA/SABB/RED edition than simply a penchant for flaunting its testosterone. It has the potential to build on its own work and lead to someplace even more spectacular than where it already is. Given that the current band's natural strength seems to lie towards the darker, less accessible end of the spectrum, it will be interesting to see how (and if) the group presents itself for the challenge. Two brief asides: One, the program for the tour features a very informative and interesting dissertation by Fripp; it also features a striking visual design which renders many of the pages maddeningly difficult to read. Two, it became clear, from a backstage vantage point, that Fripp is no more open to public interaction at close quarters than he is from on stage. While most of the other band members gamely signed autographs and answered questions for the small crowd gathered outside after the gig, Fripp glanced at them from a considerable distance with an expression somewhere between quiet amazement and gutteral terror. A few minutes later, he slipped out the back door in a van, unannounced to all but a few of the people still waiting to meet him. Understandable, but perhaps also unfortunate. For, to paraphrase the man himself, when a paper appears which only Robert can autograph, then, sooner or later, a fan appears to collect the autograph. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:52:14 -0700 From: cheska at teleport dot com (KernsFunk) Subject: GIG REVIEW: Roseland Theatre: 6/20 Roseland Theatre - Portland, OR: 6/20/95 The Roseland is a small concert hall/bar that my wife refuses to go to. Last night, I could understand why: it was hot, packed, noisy, stinky, and smoky. The show was originally scheduled for the larger, more comfortable, non-smoking Civic Auditorium (hint!), but was moved to the Roseland for some strange reason. The show sold out after only a couple of weeks, so they could probably have filled up a larger venue. My friend, Richard, and I got in line 20 minutes before the doors opened, and finally got pretty good seats in the third row of the balcony. The show began at a little after 8:00 with the California Guitar Trio, who were very impressive. The played 30 minutes worth of innovatively arranged acoustic guitar music. Hours of hard practice and the influence of Fripp's Guitar Craft paid off well for these guys, as they consistently provided us with well played and interesting music. I recognized a couple of songs from the RFSQ release, a Bach piece and a Sergio Leone tune, and caught a brief reference to Schizoid Man. The center guitarist played distorted slide and E-bow a couple of times, which provided an interesting variance. The most amazing thing was how well these guys communicated with each other. Their set was greeted by a standing ovation, which they returned with a standing encore with their Ovations. (:-]) They were autographing CDs after the show was over. I would have bought one, but I spent all my money ($28) on the Larks' shirt! Who sets these prices anyway, and how much does the band get? As good as the CGT was, Crimson blew them away. After an improvised introduction, Adrian welcomed the audience, asked us to refrain from smoking (which went unheeded), and instructed us to hang on to our seats! The set was pretty much what I have read about all tour long: all of THRAK (except Radio & Inner Garden), the first half of Discipline, Red, Talking Drum, and LTIAII. The sound quality was excellent throughout - no problems at the outset as has been reported at other shows. It seemed pretty loud at the time, but my ears are not ringing today, so it must not have been too loud. The big story was how well the two drummers worked together. Most double drummer bands (Allman Brothers, Genesis, etc...) have the drummers playing in unison for the most part, except for the occasional fill or solo. Last night was another matter. I was not very impressed with Mastellotto's drumming on the live Sylvian/ Fripp effort - it seemed too straightforward compared to the Marotta/Anderson percussion on the studio effort. Last night, he worked magic with Bruford. Neither tried to outdo the other with flashy solos. Rather, each seemed to play a little bit less than they would have normally, which gave the other drummer freedom to explore the groove. Bruford's finesse matched up nicely with Mastelotto's thunder. The drum solos (B'Boom, Talking Drum, Indiscipline) were right on the money (and I usually hate drum solos!). Very, very powerful. The Levin/Gunn pairing didn't seem to work quite as well. Trey's Warr guitar was mixed pretty low and it was hard to tell what he was doing. Levin, on the other hand, was a monster! His bass playing was fabulous, as was his use of the electric upright bass. I am glad that he abandoned the use of the bass synth to get the really low notes. The upright had such a beautiful, cello-like tone one minute, and the next thing you now, he is getting an incredibly deep growl or that smooth fretless sound from it. Tony only played stick on the Discipline tracks and what the duet with Trey. I hate to say it, but the duet seemed unfocused and just didn't work, mainly because they didn't seem to communicate as well as Bruford/Mastellotto. That leaves Belew and Fripp, who were both in top form. Adrian's vocals were the best I have ever heard from him (Tony should be commended for excellent backing vocals, as well), but he didn't seem as energetic as usual. The guitar work from both men was exceptional, though Fripp could have been mixed in a little louder. Fripp played some wild stuff during the improv section of THRAK that sounded like a player piano. All sorts of strange and interesting sounds were coming from both of them. They definitely looked more interested and enthused than during the 1984 tour. I went to this show not a big THRAK fan. I liked the vocal songs well enough, but I had a hard time getting into and understanding the instrumentals. Seeing the instrumentals performed live, however, changed my mind. I think watching Bruford and Mastelotto play helped a great deal, since it was difficult for me to separate the two drums parts by listening alone. VROOOM VROOOM was especially good and THRAK was exceptionally insane, yet logical. As other ETers have noted, Red was one of the highlights - words cannot express the power of this arrangement. In fact, all of the THRAK tunes were improved (especially People), except for SESDD, which seemed to run out of steam. The Talking Drum/LTIAII encore was great, but it seemed too short! The only low points were some of the Discipline tracks. The band just didn't seem too interested in Matte Kudasai or Frame By Frame. Elephant Talk was a gem, but I think they might want to consider retiring Indiscipline - at least temporarily. As other ETers have noted, jerks at each concert shout out "I did" or "I wish you were here to see it" at inappropriate times. Belew rushed the story, trying to beat the jerks to the lines, but he just couldn't. I got the impression that the band is getting irritated with this, since I saw grimaces on Levin and Bruford during all of this. Too bad, since Bruford's intro was magnificent. Finally, a brief discussion about shadows and light. When I heard that Fripp was playing in the shadows, I was disappointed. However, I would not say that Fripp played in the shadows, rather, he played in ambient or indirect lighting. In fact, there was ambient lighting on the entire band at times. No, the spotlight was never on him, and yes, it was hard to see what he was doing. But, you could see enough. In fact, it was as hard to see what Bruford was doing, since his head was in shadows for a good part of the show and his drum kit was up on a riser. Belew and Gunn often stepped out of the spotlight so that they audience's attention could be redirected. The real issue is that there is so much going on that it is hard for the audience to follow what everybody is doing. I feel like I need to see this band a couple of more times to really figure out what was going on, it was just so overwhelming. When a band decides to throw spotlights around, they make up the audiences mind for them about what they should be paying attention to. All in all, I think it was interesting choice of lighting and was by no means disappointed. King Crimson, thank you for coming back into my life. It has been worth the wait. Long live the King! Steve Kerns [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 02:15:05 -0400 From: MikelBiko at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: Seattle Whew! Just got home from the Seattle Paramount show, and am glad to say that the advance billing from the rest of the ET populace was not just hype! An incredible performance, perhaps even better than the "Discipline" tour (my first Crimsoid live experience). It was a bit too "loud" and abrassive for my girlfriends' tastes, but that's the way I like 'em! C.G.T. was very good, and the crowd seemed positively bowled over by them. They are one of the only "support acts" I have ever see receive a standing ovation. The Crimson set differed none from those posted previously, so I won't be redundant; "Red" was the high point of the set for me, and at least a few others I saw bobbing their heads and wiping their brows. I was dissapointed they didn't play "Heartbeat", as I understood they play that for shows that go over exceedingly well - maybe there is no real key to when they play it? All in all, an exciting and rewarding evening. I even got to run into 5 or 6 old friends throughout the evening, some of whom I hadn't seen in over 10 years. If you can make a show on the tour, DO! Mikel Orsborn mikelbiko at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 02:33:33 -0600 (MDT) From: "Alan J. Mallery" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Denver 6/18 Wow! What a show. Thankfully, the show was moved from the Ogden to the Paramount, so an additional 900 people got to experience KC. A few observations: Just because Robert's in the dark, it doesn't mean he's doing much. Besides soundscapes, he seemed to switch off with Adrian on rhythm/lead depending on the song. He also went crazy during the middle improv of 'Thrak'. Really enjoyed the drum interplay. Pat is just not a human metronome. Trey doesn't seem to get as much attention I guess because he doesn't play many lead parts, more filling out the sound. But you could tell. He also triggered some synth sounds during 'One Time'. Elephant Talk really rocked. They had a good combination of rockier/ballad pieces. Nice Seagulls from Adrian. I think the highlight for me and my friends was 'Indiscipline'. This really smoked! Adrian comes up with some neat lyrics sometimes. Also, on a related KC note, I won a huge 'Thrak' poster from a drawing at a local record store. Now, just have to find a place to put it.. CGT was cool opening up. Very tight. Very intrigued by the Soundscpaes also, I'll have to get that disc. All in all a very memorable evening! Alan =================================================================== Alan Mallery/aka: ajmaller at ouray dot cudenver dot edu\aka2: Emerson at aol dot com =================================================================== Now Playing: John Cage - 5'38" (extended dance remix) /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: William J Jacobs Subject: TICKETS: San Diego Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) I have a spare ticket for KC's San Diego show on the 28th. It's a very good seat, the twentieth seat in the eighth row. I'd like to trade it for a ticket to one of the L.A. shows or sell it for face value. e-mail me if you're interested. Bill jacobs William Jacobs | The crap you believe, the better off Astronomy Dept., San Diego State | you are -- Charles Bukowski bjacobs at mintaka dot sdsu dot edu | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 13:47:06 PST From: cohara at atmel dot com (cohara) Subject: TICKETS: Wanted for any San Francisco show Hi all, I'm posting this for someone else who wants a ticket (preferably a pair) for any of the San Francisco shows. It seems he wasn't as impressed with the last couple albums so figured THRAK wouldn't be too great, then he heard it and realized he was a fool. If you have any extra tickets, e-mail him at don at till dot com ... His name is Don Tillman. Thanks, Casey "I already got my tickets for 6/25" O'Hara cohara at atmel dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]