From elephant-talk at arastar dot comThu Jun 1 07:26:09 1995 Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 02:58:56 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #193 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 193, Friday, 26 May 1995 Today's Topics: MISC: Interaction QUERY: an answer to the Fripp/Eno question MISC: Hot? NOT! MISC: Cadence and Cascadeisation MISC: All Clear on the CD Front THRAK MISC: I talk to the elephant! MISC: Crimson Live Sound Sux? THRAK: Thrak similarities MISC: Crimson on the radio? MISC: e-t submission QUERY: sound company? MISC: Sunday all over the Willcox MISC: bruford MISC: Re: LIVE EYE: King Crimson MISC: Fripp,etc. MISC: Re: Fripp as editor? MISC: vampiric responses... MISC: The calling card and the love letter THRAK: Thrak debate MISC: The return of the CK TICKETS: TICKET GROVEL: Denver TICKETS: Need Boston Tickets TICKETS: Washington, DC TICKETS: Ticket anyone? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 13:29:02 -0600 From: keeks at maroon dot tc dot umn dot edu (Tom Keekley) Subject: MISC: Interaction I would like to say how cool it is that Paul Richards of the CGT took the time to drop us a line. This is a great example of how something like the net can break down barriers between artists and their audience. Even if several negative comments about the CGT (some in the same digest!) have appeared here, I'm certain they see the dialog here somewhat constructive and very interesting. Also a hello to Tony Levin, as he is most likely reading this. I read the article about him in one of the bass mags and in it he listed net sources for bassists and included ET. BTW, Tony, I knew about the Lennon sessions and I was 14 years old and in Milwaukee at the time!! Can't remember how, tho . . . I hope more musicians/artists will make themselves known on similar lists in the future. Hopefully overzealous fans (short for 'fanatics') will not scare them into permalurker mode. . . Enjoying ALL of the THRAKtalk, good and bad. Can't WAIT for the show! Tom Keekley - Minneapolis keeks at maroon dot tc dot umn dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 22:43:54 +0300 From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) Subject: QUERY: an answer to the Fripp/Eno question John Lambrou wrote in ET191: >regarding the tracks "heavenly music corporation" and "swastika girls" as >they appeared in "No Pussyfooting" - are they aurally the same on "the >essential fripp and eno" (Caroline Records), or has there been additional >remixing/remastering/treatments? He also forwarded the same question to NerveNet, the Brian Eno e-talk forum, where A. Rubli (Alexander the Administrator) replied: >As far as I know, they are only "remastered", however due the kind of >recording, there is no much "aural" difference. The same applies IMHO to both >Eno-Boxes, you might hear the background noise+hiss with more fidelity :-) I'd like to share some additional observations: The Essential CD does not sound like a re-mix to me. Maybe re-mastered, though. It sounds the same as the original LP, except much better and clearer when I really listen to it with headphones. I didn't notice all the fascinating details until I got the CD. But they are audible on good vinyl as well. The same goes for tracks from "Evening Star". When I bought the Essential CD I was hoping something like you hear on The Definitive Edition of "Let the Power Fall". It almost sounded like a re-mix. I'd recommend getting a tape of the double LP "Even Spaces", which was recorded 28 May 1975 at the Paris Olympia. Side one includes interesting versions of the H.M.Corp. and S.Girls. (The other 3 sides include some unreleased tracks and most of the "Evening Star".) --- jukka kukkonen (j at vrooom dot pp dot fi) finland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 15:12:16 -0600 From: keeks at maroon dot tc dot umn dot edu (Tom Keekley) Subject: MISC: Hot? NOT! If Fripp thinks an album is a love letter and a concert is a hot date, why does he just sit there and act disinterested? I feel sorry for those he's dated!! I thought there was a difference between being eccentric and being boring?!? Tom Keekley - Minneapolis keeks at maroon dot tc dot umn dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:53:03 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: MISC: Cadence and Cascadeisation From: "M. S. AtKisson" >Even old KC had it's moments of (urm, um..) artistic ambiguity --Cadence >and Cascade doesn't make a lot of sense, but it pretended to be linear >enough that you don't notice. What? The most beautiful song ever written about groupies? Makes perfect sense. A little more elliptical and poetic than Ladies of the Road, but every bit as understandable! --- A linguistic obsessive/compulsive King Crimson fan writes: >2) The OED, Cambridge University Press, The Times and Americans use -ize >Befitting an old and polyglot language like English there are some >exceptions (based on etymology) but authorize ain't won of'em! Until this debate started, I'd never heard of authorise being spelt with anything other than an s. Certainly it's rare to see it used in New Zealand that way. Then again, we are closer to British English than American English. -ize is used with a large number of words in English, but I would imagine it to be a smaller number than in America (other examples that are different include analyse and emphasise). All the dictionaries I have checked (about six of 'em) only refer to the -ized ending in the author- case (if at all) as an Americanizm. Now can we get back to discussing the music please? James [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 May 95 21:19:44 PDT From: John Relph Subject: MISC: All Clear on the CD Front Russell W Keating writes: >I think this is a new CD case design that we will be seeing more of. I have looked at my CD case and I can't see any difference in design. >The old design had a colored flexible plastic that held the CD. With these >new cases, the whole thing is made out of the clear, brittle plastic. Ah. You mean a difference in implementation. Yes, I like these new cases all made of clear plastic. > I think someone is trying to save money by making the CD case out >of one plastic instead of two! I think someone is trying to make more artwork visible to the consumer. Now, in addition to the back cover and the front cover of the booklet, we also get a picture under the CD itself and sometimes they put writing or other interesting stuff under the margin such that it is visible even when the CD case is closed. As I said, I like it. I want more. -- John P.S. Fripp discography: http://idaho.ig.com/music/fripp.robert -- http://www.ig.com/~relph/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 02:04:49 -0400 From: LarksTngue at aol dot com Subject: THRAK Hello All. I've just read my first issue of ET and I've already been promted to make a submission (it took a coupla weeks for the Pink Floyd group to get me to do this). I've been a fan of Crimson's since Discipline, but the 70's were actually the greatest era for Crimson IMO. I really can't understand the Beatles comparison that everybody is making about this album. To me Belew sounds like Belew. Nothing more, nothing less. The only way I could compare him to Lennon & McCartney is that they are all excellent songwriters. I feel that this disk is all Crimson, and as usual they tend to stay above the morass of musical styles and carve out a niche distinctly their own. As far as this album being commercial, this is not inherently bad. Somethings are commercial because they are soulless musical junkfood, and some are 'mersh because they are good. The slower songs on this release are commercial because they are good. In my eyes there is nothing more to it than that. This album is truly a great album and I feel that over time it will be proven to be exactly that. Last but not least, I CAN NOT WAIT to see Crimson in San Diego at the end of June. I've been waiting 14 yrs. to see these guys and I'm already getting a woody just thinking about it ;-). Keep up all the interesting conversation, It's great to hear different opinions on Crimso, especially since I only have two friends that are into the King and they both live about 500 miles from me. Needles to say It's not every day I get to talk about Crimson. Until you get me riled again... Confusion will be my epitaph As I crawl a cracked and broken path..... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: u01saf at aberdeen dot ac dot uk Subject: MISC: I talk to the elephant! Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 22:45:36 +0100 (BST) Hi there! Just joined "Elephant Talk" after being amazed at the one KC album I have so far, "In The Court..." A few points...who is Peter Sinfield? What is know about what the lyrics on this album refer to? Forgive me, I know nothing about the band yet. What is going on in the Second half of "Moonchild"? To answer a point last issue, King Crimson IS another word for Satan, and they use thje DEVIL'S Chord alot, for example in "ITCOTCK"...D, Cmaj dim etc... similarly, Moonchild is the title of a book by Aleistair Crowley the magus, but I don't think it has much relevance to the song...maybe I'm wrong... Look forward to learning more about the band! Torch [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 07:56:28 -0400 From: tim at manic dot cosc dot georgetown dot edu (Tim Snyder) Subject: MISC: Crimson Live Sound Sux? One of us (can't 'member...sorry) complained that BB's drum sounds lacked "definition" in a recent show. I've seen the King four or five times, and only twice have they sounded reasonable. Anybody know why? Once, at Pine Knob Music Theater (near Detroit), _nothing_ was defined in the mix: It was just a giant glob of awful noise, like ten minute bursts of distortion. As for drums and definition, this malady often occurs when the mixing person fails to recognize any point in the room other than his or her mixing station. I am always astounded when, hearing bad sound, I walk over to the mixing station and it crystalizes into beautiful sound. Since the mixing console is so often in the hall's center and in line with high-end speakers and horns, the mix on the sides of the room can end up comparitively muddy. So, he who could not hear BB: Were you off to the side? Enjoy (See you all in DC : ), Tim [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:59:46 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Lous Subject: THRAK: Thrak similarities I'm surprised noone's metioned the similarities with ELO. I don't think they were conscious references, but they're still there. The most obviuos is the mellotron intro to Dinosaur, which could have been ripped straight from mid-70's ELO, but also Belew's singing, when it occasionally strays a slightly from pure Lennon, is slightly reminiscent. Could be just the common Beatles-inspiration though. Well, I just can't help myself, here's my thoughts on THRAK too: I must admit I was disappointed when I first heard it. After a few listens it's starting to grow on me, and I now quite like it. There are a couple of real gems, though some of the songs have more spunk on VROOOM. It surpasses much of the 80's stuff, but I doubt it'll ever come close to competing with their masterpieces from the seventies. But you never know. (What I REALLY miss is Wetton's bass. Levin is an excellent musician, but his playing is more techincal and fidgety, without the deep, surging quality so prominent on Red etc.) Adrians singing has improved a LOT since the 80's Crimson, but the lyrics are even sillier than before. His pop songs REALLY annoy me. _Walking on air_ is just plain boring and irrelevant, _People_ is positively embarassing. This is NOT what we need Crimson for. We've heard it before, and we've heard it done better. The album would be better value for money without these two tracks, even without replacements: another example that less is more :-) -Joachim [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:32:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mats Rydstr\vm Subject: MISC: Crimson on the radio? Hi! Thought I would contribute some knowledge about KC on my local radio-station. Here in Stockholm, Sweden we've got a rock-oriented radio station that is broadcasting in english. The station is BANDIT 105.5 and it's actually by Swedish commercial-radio-standards very good. They were previously located in New York, anyone know of them from back when? However they haven't been featuring the new album, they played something off VROOOM when it first came out. I listen quite a lot and I hear about one KC-song a week. They've played Schizoid Man, Epitaph, Court and a lot of Cat Food. They've also played 80's stuff like Frame By Frame, Neurotica and LTIA pt III. I haven't heard any other radio stations playing even remotely this amount of KC. Oh, well, for each KC song BANDIT plays they play 20 Offspring, Cracker etc. type-songs but at least it's not Euro-disco! ------ Also about the definitive edition edits: The very Frippy lead in the beginning (and other parts also) of Matte Kudesai (or Matte Kudasai, which is correct?) is not on my Concise-CD. Also it seems like the slap-intro to Sleepless is produced by delay. On the DE they cut some of the delay, on the original there's this steady slap rhythm going underneath all of the time. ------ /Mats [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 09:47:38 -0500 (EST) From: "M. S. AtKisson" Subject: MISC: e-t submission > > >Is it true (or possible) that Fripp is an editor of a popular magazine? > > If so, which one? > > I know that RF was a contributing editor to the (US) Musician magazine, not > too long ago. They mentioned this after they left RF out of their list of Fripp also wrote a column for Guitar Player for some period of time. I think it was a little cerebral for their average reader. Speaking of cerebral, it's interesting to note what I can and can't do while listening to certain Crimson songs. I spent a year or so writing software on a US Army computer-based instruction package. We were literally a programming sweatshop--12 terminals in a small room and the Walkman afforded the only mental privacy. I discovered that I could write code quickly during most of Discipline (especially the title song), but during "Indiscipline" I (still) can't even count past 10. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * M. S. (Peg) AtKisson * (matkisso at opal dot tufts dot edu) * "...his frontal lobe Department of Neuroscience * a retread..." Tufts University School of Medicine * A. Belew Boston, Massachusetts * [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 95 08:56 EST From: chrisd at iquest dot net (Chris Dickey) Subject: QUERY: sound company? Anyone out there know who the sound company is for the American Tour? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 17:40:39 -0500 From: thequail at cthulhu dot microserve dot com (The Great Quail) Subject: MISC: Sunday all over the Willcox Rapheline writes: >I just picked this up at the recommendation of several people on this list >I've been corresponding with, and I am really into it too. I actually dig >the vocals a lot, I've heard them compared too Kate Bush, but I don't >notice any significant similarity there. They remind me a bit more of >Siouxsie (except the lyrics are a lot better). Hmm. . . I have never though of Kate or Siouxie, but actually of Fish from Marillion. I think that Toyah Willcox has that sneering "prog-rock" sound like Fish or Hammill, which is one of the reasons I love Sunday all over the World. By the way, for another female vocalist with a breathtaking range, check out Linda Perry of 4 Non Blondes. Just as a point - I strongly recommend the Sunday disc. The first time I heard Sunday all over the World, I said: "Hmmm . . . Fripp is missing King Crimson." Then I heard the track "This is What I Believe in" by Belew off of Inner Revolution, and I said "Hmmm. . . sounds like Belew would'nt mind a reunion." And when I saw Anderson Bruford Wakeman and Howe, and Levin and Bruford broke into an "Industry" like jam, I said "Hmmm. . . " ---------------------------------+-------------------------------- The Great Quail | TheQuail at cthulhu dot microserve dot com rivverrun Discordian Society | AOL: LordArioch at aol dot com c/o Allen Ruch | Sarnath - The Quailspace Web Page: 315 Second Street | http://www.microserve.com/~thequail Enola, PA 17025 | ** What is Schwa? ** "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H.P. Lovecraft [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: sbienkow at acs dot bu dot edu Subject: MISC: bruford Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 19:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Recently there has been quite a lot of negativity regarding Bill Bruford's contributions to the latest Crimson work, and I can't believe it. What's gotten in to all of you? BB is one of the most innovative drummers around. To paraphrase one fellow ETer: he's the best rock drummer there is. The reason I listen to KC--the reason I first started listening to them--was because of BB. I had just picked up the Yes box set, and followed the family tree to King Crimson, thinking "who is this band?" (BTW, the first CD of their's that I purchased was 3oaPP, and I now have the whole catalog.) Anyway, there is little dispute about BB's previous work with KC (BB-haters should check out the _song_ "The Great Deceiver" or Larks 3) so let's talk about BB+KC=1995. Put on the _VROOOM_ CD, and listen to the rat-a-tat-tat artillery once the main theme begins. "Noise"? (to quote one ETer.) I think not. What's the matter? Can't you handle the drum as instrument, not metronome? Are the "polyrhythms" of "THRAK" too complex for you to handle? Is Ian McDonald your favorite KC member of all time? Then put on "Jukebox Hero" and leave BB alone to expand the role of the drum and challenge our commonly held and constrictive conceptions of what music ought to sound like. Does that offbeat percussion play on _THRAK's_ SexSEDD, throw you off? Wondering where that beat went? Did you check your CD to make sure a mote wasn't causing a skip? Have you ever heard of the bass keeping time? (or the stick, for that matter?) Or is that too too jazzy for your delicate ears? Were you delighted when Annie Lennox appeared on Lettermen instead of KC? Well, "no more Ann Lennox--do dee do dee do" please. Hum that. It's in 4/4/ You can do it. I know this posting reads a bit harsh, but come on! KC, the entity, is an incredible music making organism. BB does more than his part, in a fabulously unique way, to keep KC progressing. For those of you that can't dig it: don't bury it. Justin Weinberg sbienkow at bu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:03:11 GMT From: druid at inforamp dot net (Drew Nisbet) Subject: MISC: Re: LIVE EYE: King Crimson The following concert "preview" just appeared in eye WEEKLY magazine, a local Toronto hard-copy & electronic magazine (KC appears here in 2 days!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ eye WEEKLY May 25 1995 Toronto's arts newspaper .....free every Thursday ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ LIVE EYE LIVE EYE preview KING CRIMSON Saturday, May 27, 7 p.m. Massey Hall, 178 Victoria St. Sold out. THE CASE OF THE RED-HEADED LEAGUE by CHRIS TWOMEY In the Situationist days of punk John Lydon tried to banish "dinosaur rock" by cutting the words "I Hate" into a Pink Floyd T-shirt and intoning "Ignore it and it will go away ... don't you listen." Unfortunately dinosaurs still tour the Earth. Now "(I'm A) Dinosaur" is the ironic new single for a band who emerged in 1969 with The Court Of The Crimson King and have remained a pioneering force over three decades. Indeed, it was King Crimson's leading light, guitarist Robert Fripp, who coined the derisive term "dinosaurs" to describe stadium rock bands when he announced a retirement from rock in 1974. Crimson's rock was an artistic heavy metal, as loud as Black Sabbath but as complex as a symphony. Their sound wasn't the blue chords of Cream and Led Zeppelin but the red ones of the devilish tritone (the most dissonant of chords, once forbidden by medieval music theorists). Virtuoso guitarist Fripp immersed his blistering fast technique in the tritone, as heard in the main theme and resolution of his archetypal 1974 track "Red" and on the newest Crimson adventure, Thrak (Discipline/Virgin/EMI). In 1995 King Crimson's '80s quartet of Fripp, Adrian Belew (guitar and vocals), Bill Bruford (Drums) and Tony Levin (bass and stick) is back with an expanded line-up, a "double-trio" formed by adding bass/stick-player Trey Gunn and drummer Pat Mastelotto (the rhythm section for the Sylvian/Fripp band, who last year left the Massey Hall stage bathed in crimson lights after a heavy version of "Darshan"). That adds up to two rhythms sections that can play in different meters while Fripp and Belew's guitars weave it all together for Crimson's return to Massey Hall this Saturday (May 27) after a 21-year absence from the venue. "Personally I would be very interested in going further down that `double-trio' road," says Bruford on the phone from England after a year of writing and rehearsing with the latest incarnation of the band he's been associated with since 1973. Since the release of prime "Red"-era live material in the Crimson box sets, echoes of Crimson's heavy '70s can still be heard in Primus and Rollins Band. The 1973 King Crimson in particular was met with raucous and often riotous approval, despite their more pastoral moments (like the bass/guitar/violin improvisation "Trio" where Bruford was given equal credit for just sitting Cage-like and listening). Bruford is rightly just as proud of the earlier band heard on albums like the Great Deceiver live set as he is of new tracks like "Vrooom," saying "there is heavier music on this new album than Pantera, Megadeth and Metallica trebled." This father of three should know -- his 17-year-old son is a thrash drummer and keeps his dad up-to-date on death metal! "In terms of drumming some of it's phenomenal," admits Bruford, who thrashes to a different drum with his jazz group Earthworks. "But for variety in harmonic development I should look elsewhere." After some harmonious development of his own through his central role in a spiritual organization that carries on the ideas of 20th-century natural philosophers Gurjieff and J.G. Bennett, Crimson's spiritual and historical archivist Robert Fripp has reassembled a major-league band with the requisite discipline to keep him interested. Fripp is an acutely sensitive English intellectual with a serious looseness deficiency. He mockingly admitted to this at a Toronto record-store visit in 1979 when he took a pen to the photo of himself on a poster for his Exposure album, adding his decade-earlier look of beard and glasses along with a speech balloon saying, "I am uptight." Uptight, but artistically out of sight. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Retransmit freely in cyberspace Author holds standard copyright http://www.interlog.com/eye Mailing list available music archives at --> http://www.interlog.com/eye/Arts/Music/music.htm eye at interlog dot com "...Break the Gutenberg Lock..." 416-971-8421 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 25 May 95 12:07:16 EDT From: "Neil J. Cavanagh" <76111 dot 3636 at compuserve dot com> Subject: MISC: Fripp,etc. Comments on previous postings: The KC/Satan connection The history of KC is filled with references to the devil; in its name,lyrics,music...A lot of VROOOM and Thrak pay tribute to a sort of diabolical 'kingdom of noise'...To be in the Court of the Crimson King means to be in Hell...A lot of Fripp's guitar work (LCIII's solo especially) sounds as if Darth Vader has traded in his lightsaber for a black electric guitar. Now...he sits in darkness... Not to say that there isn't great tragic beauty on many of the records. I love KC's music; presumably many of you readers do also. So i'd like to hear some ideas. Please do not shoot back the 'man with an aim' definition without backing it up. What is this man Fripp's aim? It is my understanding that musicians do not make music, they learn to tap into an eternal stream that reflects the Truth. I understand that the Truth about modern life on this planet may be very dark stuff indeed...we may all be in the devil's hands, at least figuratively speaking... So it may be that the aim of this 'King Crimson' is to awaken its listeners to the truth of their situation as human beings, through the music's 'unsettling nature.' The truth that comes to me is that if I had the strength to reject my illusions and try to receive and follow the impulses worthy of a man, to evolve, I would not have the time to worry about why this Fripp person doesn't do what I want him to. The effect of 'waking up' to the our situation is a bit like waking up in an airplane with no pilot. At that point we must reject our selfish concerns. We must not take anything for granted. It so happens that I believe these are the ideas that this Fripp guy is trying to get across to us with his actions. Unfortunately for us and him, these are just the ideas we spend our day trying to avoid. Yes that was Annie Lennox on Letterman, May 19th. Although there are rumours that Fripp was seated in darkness behind the back-up singers... Thanks to Paul Richards for taking the time to write! Another idea submitted to ET for comment: I've decided that the mellotron everyone seems to so glad to hear again on Thrak is not a mellotron at all. It is a sample, probably triggered via MIDI guitar. I've come to this conclusion because I've heard melltoron samples before, and wasn't convinced then either. I know it says Fripp plays it on Thrak, but this may be a 'hoax.' Do any agree? Neil Cavanagh 'Fripp is a charlatan and a turkey.' - Robert Fripp [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:40:47 -0600 From: DaLane at oxygen dot bbn dot com (Dave Lane) Subject: MISC: Re: Fripp as editor? Organization: BBN Software Product Corporation DAVE GRUSKA poses the question: >Is it true (or possible) that Fripp is an editor of a popular magazine? If >so, which one? Popular Frippertronics. Tiger Beat. Martha Stewart Living [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 95 18:03:32 BST From: jason at ugr3 dot ucsd dot edu (Jason Thornton) Subject: MISC: vampiric responses... >Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:36:35 -0400 >From: mpc at mbsmm dot com (Mark Clements) >Subject: MISC: vampiric responses... >The musicians are irrelevant because what is relevant is the music. If >someone played you THRAK, and you thought it was the most wonderful album >you had heard in years, then told you it was the new (insert the band you >love to hate here) disc, would that change your opinion of the music? The >point I tried to make in my previous post was that you shouldn't dislike a >song or an album because of who performed it, you should dislike it because >the *music* isn't to your liking. Not the musicians. Sorry, I disagree a bit. The musicians, and our perceptions of these musicians are an integral part of the entire album and/or performance experience. In fact, your pre-existing expectations of the music based on past experiences (musical and non-musical alike), differing social factors including attitudes and notions of the performer, musical genre, current cultural context, etc., and the very music itself (it's originality, how well is it played, "does it rock?"), are all aspects that are woven together to form the entire, complete musical "event" for the audience (be that "event" a concert, or a CD, or whatever). It's very easy to hate, or love, music based as much on the musician as the *music*. Whether or not you think this is how it should be, it is very natural for people to do this. Heck, part of the experience of seeing Fripp "perform," whether solo or as a member of a band, is seeing him sit/stand there rigid and precise, extremely disciplined, focusing intently, expressionless on the *music* he creates. >I see this as an attempt by RF to shift the focus of the audience's >attention to the music, as opposed to the musician. BTW, he was in the >shadows the last KC go-round, also. Agreed, somewhat. But I think the musician is still seen as important. I think there is a "shift" of "focus" going on in an RF show, but more of a shift of what is important to a performance, a shift of expectations on how a performer should behave on stage. RF's stage presence shifts the focus of the audience's attention to the music, and to the musicianship (virtuoso-ness?) of the musician, as opposed to the dancing/gyrating/jumping- up-and-down abilities of the musician. I mean, I do agree that RF wants the audience to focus on the music. When I saw him during his Soundscapes show here in San Diego a few months ago, he walked off stage at point, leaving a Soundscape improvisation to play itself out without him. But, then again, this is something of anti-performance, and you can't get around that it was Fripp that did this, and that walking off stage like that was a very Frippian thing to do. >I would also think that RF's response would be that he has a >responsibility to the music, not the audience. There is still a responsibility to the audience, without whom the music would not be experienced and appreciated. I think RF is playing for an audience who pays more attention to the complexity and beauty of the sounds he creates, rather than how much RF can bounce around on stage. But, there the musician (RF) is still a part of the music -- there's still this idea of "look at what *I* can do" or even "look at what *I* can create, even when I'm not here." --Organic Machinery "Take my fire, take my food and water Forget about those promises of social good and social order" *20th Century Dreaming (a shaman's song)* Sylvian/Fripp/Gunn [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 10:20:39 -0700 From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold) Subject: MISC: The calling card and the love letter What's this, a calling card from the Crimson King? VROOOM. Uh huh, you're ah, gearing up, turning on the engine as it were, you're sleeping and you're getting sex and going to Raves and that's got you all riled because it's such an automaton pattern thing, okay...wow, you sound so frenzied about living in the USA, Thrak thrak thrakkety, yeah, uh huh, [mumble mumble mumble] what was that, whoa some sort of rambling non-sequiter there, tell me more about this when I see you next...you're waiting for the penny to drop, is that it? I see. Okay, well, uh, gee, Crimso, sorry to hear life is such an emotional roller coaster for you. Life's treating me pretty well right now, things are going well. Write me a letter some time soon. Oh, now a letter from the Crimson King? Thrak. More about your gearing up: you're doing it as interacting groups, a double trio as it were. Sounds plausible, I'd explore it some more if you have the time. You're a dinosaur, you don't say, feeling a bit naive about the industry were we, taken for a ride--now, did you mean yourself, or the industry? Maybe both? Well it is good to hear he (you?) took a breather, it's good to lose all your worries now and then ;-). What's that? You danced with a pair of drums? Sounds like fun. Oh Thrak, as Cathy might say! Thrakety thrak tickety tack, very rhythmic! Hey, I'm sorry to hear about your friend, she sounds so lonely and afraid--is she okay now? People, turning this world around, hmm, I'm not sure what you're getting at, maybe you could, um, rephrase this for me :-(. [Fswzwhsh] Whuh? Speak up, I'm losing your connection, there must be some sort of radio interference. More about the penny, yes, I can almost hear it dropping this time. [Shmwzhsh] Ah? Again, you're breaking up? Oh yeah, your friend again, I am really sorry to hear about her. Whew, depressing. Oh the Sex and the sleep issue, yes yes, don't I know it, well you know we should all become more aware of our habits. Maddening. Vrooom eh? Vrooom vrooom, zooom zing bada b'boom eh? Swish. "Yeah!" Well thank you for the very sweet letter, Crimso! I'm glad you took the time to write clearly and deliberately (although I'm a little foggy on your topic of People). You've been pretty busy, and up to a few new things. I hope we can visit some time soon, late June perhaps? I'll be in SF, maybe we can synch up then. Hoping to hear from you again in person, - Brian --------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Arnold arnold at lumina dot com Director of Software Development Lumina Decision Systems, Inc. http://www.lumina.com/lumina/ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Nadav Noah Caine Subject: THRAK: Thrak debate Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:39:12 -0700 (PDT) I just want to say that I'm a little disappointed by some of the tenor of the comments on ET related to criticisms of the recent stuff. I thought it was taken for granted here that critique was a form of praise, and certainly an expression of love and enjoyment? It's my greatest pleasure to actively listen to Thrak, and tthen say, "Oh, perhaps they could have done this..." or "If there were no vocals here, then this other aspect could come out..." After all, the group put together Thrak fairly quickly; and I imagine internal critique certainly exists. I don't begrudge anybody dismissing the 81-84 KC (which is my favorite) or saying that they've never enjoyed anything so much in their life as the last show they caught, I hope I'm not begrudged my affectionate criticisms. Actually, comments about the anal intellectual tendencies of KC listeners have long ago ceased to phase me. - Nadav Caine p.s. If you havent checked out Toby's ET WWW page, you are MISSING something! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Niko P., 2743 (AUWI)" Organization: Uni O., FB Wirtschaftswiss. Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 18:09:31 +0200 Subject: MISC: The return of the CK Dear ETers! My crimzoid mind is occupied by a question which is a little bit related to the discussion on the quality of THE GREAT DECIVER. Some time ago, I happend to see a live CD of KC named THE RETURN OF THE CRIMSON KING. This is live performance which took place, as far as I can remember, in 1969. It comprises, of course, songs from the first LP. The label of this release is LIVING LEGENDS. I never heard of it before. Does anybody of the ETers out there know something about this one? How is the sound/recording quality? Can you recommend it?? Thankx for your answer in advance! Niko Paech Osnabrueck Germany (urrrgh, Krautland) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 23:44:04 -0600 From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man) Subject: TICKETS: TICKET GROVEL: Denver Well this is, in the vernacular of other groups of ticketless hordes, a grovel. Not for myself, mind you, but for my best friend wqho was caught unawares and didn't get tix in time. Fortunately for me (i was out of town when they were announced and the gig SOLD OUT before i returned) my girlfriend (who is a big Belew fan) was paying attention and got me a ticket. But my friend Joe, who has every KC album and has been a fan for as long as i've known him (ten years) is out in the cold. Won't you please help? (PS my friend Mark is driving to Denver from Santa Fe, and he hasn't got a ticket either.) So either one or two tickets would be GREATLY *APPRECIATED*. Thraks, --lizard man [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Dave Kassay x4048" Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 10:26:19 -0400 Subject: TICKETS: Need Boston Tickets Dear ET readers, If you have an extra pair of tickets to the Boston King Crimson show I would love to buy them from you. Thanks. -- Dave -- =================================================================== David Kassay Phone: 617-981-4048 MIT Lincoln Laboratory FAX: 617-981-3220 Air Traffic Automation http://goliath.atc.ll.mit.edu/davek Group 41 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 25 May 1995 10:43:48 -0500 From: "tgrubb" Subject: TICKETS: Washington, DC I need tickets to the upcoming KC concert in Washington, DC. Two tickets would be ideal, but I'd settle for one. Thanks, Terry Grubb tgrubb at arpa dot mil [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: TICKETS: Ticket anyone? Date: Fri, 26 May 95 07:57:50 -0400 From: "\"\"William N. Furman\"\"" It is 8am on friday may 26th. Tonight I see King Crimson in Buffalo, New York and I have 1 extra ticket. Anyone interested: contact me at wnf at rfc dot comm dot harris dot com. thanks very much! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]