From elephant-talk at arastar dot comThu Jun 1 07:25:50 1995 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 19:36:47 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #191 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 191, Tuesday, 23 May 1995 Today's Topics: MISC: THRAK, Beatles THRAK: why complain? THRAK: Unauthorised THRAK: Thrak's similarities... MISC: Re: AB's lyrics MISC: THRAK & c. MISC: Cameras and Crimson MISC: ...words with a "D" this time... VROOOM: a review QUERY: Fripp/Eno question MISC: Miscellany from ET... VROOOM: VROOOM THRAK: Marine 475 THRAK: ...wow SAOTW: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 # TOUR: King Crimson Tour Recordings MISC: Fripp as editor? THRAK: impatience MISC: Time Out Thrak Review, Mojo RF Interview, TL in Bass Player MISC: new crimson stuff? MISC: soundscapes MISC: Pretentious nonsense? MISC: Kneeling at the Shrine MISC: TouchStyle MISC: (Re:) Lyrics & Drumming MISC: An Interesting Discovery (ET) THRAK: a big dissappointment MISC.: Def. Ed./Headcandy/TOUR PROGRAMME/SPOILER MISC: vampiric responses... MISC: "People" MISC: Scott Tillis on Cirkus and the KC/Satan connection MISC: Greetings, Beggings, and Observations MSC: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 MISC: Re: Great Deceiver worth it? MISC: explanation of "radio show" MISC: Dinosaur single MISC: Bruford's recent work MISC: bumper/industry THRAK: THRAK/BEATLES MISC: "Court" sound quality MISC: RE: Wanted Dinosaur EP THRAK: Crimson as Pop? TV: KC on Letterman? MISC: Re: ET MISC: Crimson on the Radio? MISC: TGD TOUR: Fripp & 'de Orb/21st Cen. Man MISC: Matte Kundasai INFO: D Source for DInosaur CD single THRAK: Re: Thrak observation MISC: not poetry, but lyrics ETHRAK: Thrak Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 MISC: Trey Gunn on FX's Backchat MISC, AUS, THRAK: bargain prices for KC MISC: lyrics and their meaning MISC: Evolution of a Tour... THRAK: bad CD cases THRAK: Thrak / Passive Listening MISC: Tonight...? MISC: Crimson Tide BELEW: Belew's Influence (long) MISC: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:34:30 -0600 From: keeks at maroon dot tc dot umn dot edu (Tom Keekley) Subject: MISC: THRAK, Beatles Thanks to all with their thoughts about THRAK and especially the live shows. I am SOOOOOO excited! However . . . It's hard for me to stand by with all of these Beatle comparisons floating so liberally. I cringed at the writer who dismissed the Beatles as a 'product of the time' and 'being in the right place at the right time.' They were, in fact, both of those, but that is not the reason for their success. They would not be heard of today had the music not stood on it's own. It not only did that, but has aged like Dom Perignon. Since when is sounding like the Beatles a BAD thing? Personally, I don't think they (KC) do at all. If anything you guys should rip on Belew for sounding like Byrne, but since he played on the records that shaped the Heads sound, it's hard to tell who was influenced by who. KC has made some excellent music. I love it. But the best of their albums would be a respectful second to any of the Beatles post-'65 output. If they want to gain inspiration from that band then I say they are tapping the right well. I don't want to start a Beatles vs. KC thing here. I don't see the point in bringing the two together except that they both have expanded the musical pallette a good deal. Another fact to remember is that the Beatles produced the core of their music in the space of 6 YEARS. It's been 25 years since they stopped and noone has touched 'em. Matte Kudesai is REALLY sounding good right now on my Mac cd . . . . [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 03:35:17 -0400 From: 3emr1 at qlink dot queensu dot ca (- Steady Eddy -) Subject: THRAK: why complain? in reading some of the complaints directed at 'thrak', i must say i'm kind of disappointed. personally, i think that KC have offered an album of wonderful music. they have also managed to create a new and fresh sound for themselves. sure, some songs recall 'red' but who cares? i think it's nice. no one complains that j.s. bach's pieces sound similar. i think people should be happy that KC have provided some new material...something i thought would never happen. all this stuff about fripp losing control and becoming side man to belew is just nutty. fripp never intended to have ultimate control anyway. i think he should be credited for letting the others have some say. after all, KC is a collective not an individual thing...a way of doing things together. so why complain about it. i'm just glad to have an album by KC that i can say i bought right when it was released...i kind of missed the boat because of my age with previous stuff. anyway, i am certainly glad and delighted to have this new album and i think it ranks up there with their other masterpieces. "if you fill space, you deprive the band of space, or other musicians the opportunity for filling space." Robert Fripp ed reifel - e-mail: 3emr1 at qlink dot queensu dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:41:23 -0500 From: thequail at cthulhu dot microserve dot com (The Great Quail) Subject: THRAK: Unauthorised This might be obvious and someone else will most likely post it, but just to answer a reappearing question: Unauthorised = Brits. Unauthorized = Yanks. ---------------------------------+-------------------------------- The Great Quail | TheQuail at cthulhu dot microserve dot com rivverrun Discordian Society | AOL: LordArioch at aol dot com c/o Allen Ruch | Sarnath - The Quailspace Web Page: 315 Second Street | http://www.microserve.com/~thequail Enola, PA 17025 | ** What is Fegmania? ** "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H.P. Lovecraft [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:02:26 -0400 Subject: THRAK: Thrak's similarities... Bradley Stewart Cook wrote: >New subject: Just thinking about all the comments on how KC has parts >of previous songs on some of the Thrak songs. I believe it is the song >"Monday Morn" that immediately pops into my head off of WoTP...the sudden >chorus from "In the Court..." that pops into the background of this song is >unmistakeable. ( I could be thinking of "Hand of Sceiron") The part is >only fleeting but it makes me smile when I hear it. The one I noticed the most is the bass in "the start of Vrooom..." Sounds very similar to 21st CSM to me. Not at an exact duplicate, but very similar. --Jeremy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Sergey V Girlya Subject: MISC: Re: AB's lyrics thequail at cthulhu dot microserve dot com (The Great Quail) writes : > reflect a sort of schizophrenic ideal that the music drives home. Sort of > Lennon meets Byrne. While Sinfield *penned* 21st CSM, Adrian's lyrics sound > like they are *coming* from the schizoid man himself! They reflect the Maybe, they are? Wait, no; schizoid men don't write about dinosaurs... > chancy, choppy nature of modern angst (sorry - whenever you bring a German > word into it, it gets too serious!) and all that stuff. I mean, Lament and > Exiles and the others are haunting, but they were always a but too > ordinary, I thought, compared to the music. Now, Belew's seem to ^^^^^^^^ Oh? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 22:47:40 -0500 From: gregdunn at indy dot net (Greg Dunn) Subject: MISC: THRAK & c. Thanks to Aldo Brucale for the THRAK tablature! Thanks to Toby for reprinting the T.Levin interview! [sarcasm on] To Ross Fortune: I'm glad you're such a terrific musician that you are qualified to roast King Crimson. I'd love to hear your latest work; please enlighten us as to where we can hear it. [sarcasm off] I do have to get my own review of THRAK off my chest, though. Overall, I quite like the album; in fact, I think everyone should pay attention to the nice structuring of the tracks. It worked for me, though I respect those who feel an alternate track order is appropriate. But I feel that the tracks VROOOM, THRAK, and One Time just don't have the power of their counterparts on the VROOOM EP. All the nice little drum and guitar fills which made the VROOOM tracks so much fun to listen to, are absent or mixed way down on THRAK. Overall, I feel these three tracks sound watered down; like the band had practiced them so much that they lost that indefinable edge which made VROOOM such a joy on repeated listenings. I expect that the live versions will kick ass :) On the other hand, Dinosaur is absolute killer KC. Truly a masterwork, even to the coda and abrupt finale. People, Inner Garden, Walking On Air -- breathing spaces between the heavier moments, and very welcome as melodic counterpoints to the all-out assaults of the VROOOMs, THRAK, and Dinosaur. 'nuff said. -- | Greg Dunn | "Information is not knowledge; | | GregDunn at aol dot com | knowledge is not wisdom; | | gregdunn at indy dot net | wisdom is not truth." | | Greg at gdunn dot nawc-ad-indy dot navy dot mil | -- Frank Zappa | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:06:01 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: MISC: Cameras and Crimson Hello Fellow Crimheads, Many of you (if not most) are aware of RF's opinion regarding cameras (not to mention audio/video recorders) at KC concerts. Check out the interview with RF that I posted a few months ago (I forget which issue, isn't that slack). For the final word, read the fine print on your ticket. Mine clearly states that cameras, recorders and pagers are not permitted and must be checked with the house manager. Furthermore, it also states that concert-goers may be searched and refused entry if such a search is refused. I'm only taking my ears and my joy at hearing KC in concert again for the third time in my life. I would ask that others also attending the concert not distract the musicians or their neighbors in the audience by "documenting" the event in an intrusive fashion. I'll respect Robert's wishes, but I would not have the willpower to say no if someone offered me a recording of the concert. I only hope that the person offering me said recording is Robert himself. How about it, Robert? Zappa had "Beat the Boots". If you issue the "Complete Live Recordings", I'll find a way to afford them. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** May 27, 1995; 7:00PM; Canada, Toronto, Massey Hall, 1st Balcony, Row A, Seat #87; "Enthusiasm"- to put it mildly!!!! P. S. ; "Thrack"- Most commercial so far, one of their finest. "Red" meets "Abbey Road" and both are the better for it. Jim Price aka jprice at trentu dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 03:05:08 -0400 From: Scooobadoo at aol dot com Subject: MISC: ...words with a "D" this time... Dissension...Debate... My, we crimsos are an ornery lot. I'm struck by the dichotomy of opinions about THRAK. It appears to be a love-it or hate-it album, at least among the members of this mailing list, who make up something of an unofficial "fan club" for KC. Personally, it never stuck me that Belew tries to sound like Lennon until I read the suggestion here. Adrian has mixed Beatles influences in varying degrees into his compositions and performances throughout his career, but in the end he sounds like Adrian, in a very distinctive way. Sure, he can approach corniness (once, while attempting to romance my wife to the sounds of the _Inner Revolution_ album, she exclaimed, "I can't fuck to this Howdy Doody music!"), but I, for one, never question his sincerity, and I feel that that earnestness forgives a lot. And with KC, as opposed to in his solo productions, he is but one element in the gestalt of the whole. Anyway, if I go into too much detail about what I think of THRAK, I'll be defeating the whole point of my post, which is, I guess, that one can't feel strongly about something that one is not invested in. All of us share the fact that King Crimson has meant something significant to us at some time in our lives, but at very different points in their history for many of us. In other words, I feel that the band in all its incarnations represents the triumph of artistic vision over commercial concerns, and the lot of the artist is that if he creates something of real substance, his audience will have a strong reaction to it, both positive and negative. Verily, blessed are those that are true enough to their vision that they throw all other concerns to the wind, even at the risk of alienating their most loyal followers. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 02:25:54 +1200 From: Steven dot Dean at vuw dot ac dot nz Subject: VROOOM: a review REAL GROOVE (GLOBAL ROOTS MUSIC BEYOND THE MAINSTREAM) Dec 94/Jan95 by David Maclennan VROOOM King Crimson (Discipline Global Mobile, pre-release) After a ten year break King Crimson are back with a vengeance on this 6-track mini album "calling-card", their best release since 1974's Red. VROOOM is altogether more full-on musically than the rather lack lustre trio of albums they did in the early 80's ,despite being basically the same line-up. The addition of 2 further musicians seems to have made a world of difference. This band takes no prisonners right from the start. The opening title track could almost have come off Red itself , with its crunching descending guitar riff laid over thrashing percussion. Even heavier is the industrial-sounding Thrak, which comes on like Godzilla stomping Tokyo. Truly deranged! Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream alternates a a funky riff with more traditionally Crimsoid riffs. and on it and the manic Cage Adrian Belew's vocals are deliberately distorted a la Schizoid Man all those years ago. When I say stop, Continue is a classic KC jam, while final cut One Time chills things out nicely with a gentle 6/8 Latin shuffle and a nice vocal from Belew. So there you have it. More musical inventiveness packed into 31 minutes than many bands manage in a lifetime. Long live the King!" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: John_Lambrou-CJL008 at email dot mot dot com Date: 13 May 95 11:40:45 -0600 Subject: QUERY: Fripp/Eno question Greetings all, A question that may have been answered before (so my apologies in advance): regarding the tracks "heavenly music corporation" and "swastika girls" as they appeared in "No Pussyfooting" - are they aurally the same on "the essential fripp and eno" (Caroline Records), or has there been additional remixing/remastering/treatments? thanks, john p.s. just picked up Thrak, definitely a worthy addition to the KC collection - made Vroom sound like a demo tape in my mind - my only observation is that I found the tempo of One Time more infectious on Vroom . . . . . . . [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 13 May 95 12:44:00 EST From: "E4152018" Subject: MISC: Miscellany from ET... Hello, all. I'm finally graduating; while this frees me from the time and financial constraints of college, it also means I'll no longer get ET. :( Can anyone suggest a good way to keep up w/ the band in the time until I'm able to get back to the net? (please email me so as not to clutter the list) My thoughts on this issue (sorry if this runs long): Joe Hartley: You're not the only one who's seen a half-speed edition of "Court". I remember them also from the mid-80's, though I didn't see them often. Also, the Editions EG reissues (from 1983, I think, when they were distributed by Jem in the states) also said "half-speed mastered" on their black labels (ditto the Bruford reissues I have). Paul: I've yet to go to a venue that allowed photos. As someone who's done (amateur) stage stuff, though, I'll definately agree that available-light shots are kindest to those on stage. As James points out, re: the "Fab Six" :) debate, King Crimson is, first and foremost, a band. Belew is a frontman only in the loosest sense, and is not the band's guiding force by any means. As for lyricists and their efforts: At the risk of sounding somewhat like Fripp, King Crimson has always had a lyricist that wrote words appropriate to whatever noise they were making; the contingency of the band would dictate getting someone else if the words didn't fit. Case in point: "Another Red Nightmare" and the UK catalog point out that John Wetton is capable of lyric writing; however, it was Palmer-James, and not Wetton, who wrote KC's lyrics at that time. Fripp's only contribution to KC lyrics is the "Cigarettes, ice cream" refrain in "Great Deceiver". As for the role of lyrics in music: A look at Eno's music, and what he's said about lyrics, is instructive here. The words are there for the sound they make rather than for what they 'mean'. "Neurotica" illustrates this well, as does (to go back to P-J) "The Great Deceiver". Pat Metheny's use of voice-as-sound also comes to mind, as the voice is treated like another instrument, and another level to the mix. As much effect, tonally, emotionally, spatially, etc., may be conveyed just by the sound as by 'words'. Also, lyrics tend to reflect someone's approach to their instrument. Eno and Metheny use the voice in a more "ambient" sense, while AB seems to write lyrics that are slightly poppy but with a decidedly twisted quality to them, much like his guitar playing. :) Sinfield, on the other hand, was a guitarist of questionable quality, given over to romanticist meanderings, so is it surprising that that's reflected on the lyrics of everything up to "Earthbound"? Just a thought. Or several. Best wishes, Paul Bogan PS: About time Tony made the cover of Bass Player... I've waited for this. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mallende at Phoenix dot kent dot edu (mark allender - king of the universe) Subject: VROOOM: VROOOM Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 14:36:53 -0400 (EDT) VROOOM has three o's -- -makotu mallende at Phoenix dot kent dot edu uh... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mallende at Phoenix dot kent dot edu (mark allender - king of the universe) Subject: THRAK: Marine 475 Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 14:46:45 -0400 (EDT) the lyrics the Coda: Marine 475 the numbers are radio frequencies designated for the different modes of travel (ways to go VROOOM) Marine (in a boat) Non-Marine (on land) Auto (in a car) Aviation (in the air) 475 is 475 cycles per second kinda cool, i think -- -makotu mallende at Phoenix dot kent dot edu uh... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 02:59:10 -0400 From: 3emr1 at qlink dot queensu dot ca (- Steady Eddy -) Subject: THRAK: ...wow the more i listen to thrak, the more i like it. in fact, it makes me want to scream. this is truly a great album. i'm digging belew's bones on 'thrak' moreso than on previous albums. thanks king crimson. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 16:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: medieval Subject: SAOTW: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 # > From: ba07693 at bingsuns dot cc dot binghamton dot edu > Subject: MISC: Fripp out front > Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 12:41:10 -0400 (EDT) > > There's been a recent thread about the lack of Fripp as featured artist > within the group setting. Those of you who want to hear Fripp, "lead > guitarist", should pull out the Sunday All Over The World disc. Granted, > this isn't the 'ferocious' Fripp, but it has some pretty good tunes with > major Fripp featurage (after all, he's the only guitarist on the album) and > some good (though short) guitar solos, e.g., Blood Bruise Tattoo, Transient > Joy, Open Air, etc. I just picked this up at the recommendation of several people on this list I've been corresponding with, and I am really into it too. I actually dig the vocals a lot, I've heard them compared too Kate Bush, but I don't notice any significant similarity there. They remind me a bit more of Siouxsie (except the lyrics are a lot better). Really nice guitar work.... there are several tracks where I notice sections that sound oddly familiar from other Fripp projects. He's notorious for that though, and it only bugs me when I can't place where I've heard it, or something close to it, before. -- Racheline Maltese | "My neighbor with no arms wanted reive at phantom dot com | to know how it feels to let http://www.phantom.com/~reive | something go." -Jeffery McDaniel [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 15:08:54 -0700 From: tcona at ix dot netcom dot com (Anthony J. Cona,Jr.) Subject:TOUR: King Crimson Tour Recordings Are there any King Crimson fans that recorded any of the shows now going on in Europe?I think we should try to trade as much of the tour recordings as possible.During the Pink Floyd tour many fans from their newsgroup started trading some of the recordings from the tour.Many were outstanding recordings and were traded by many people.I think we should start do the same here.If you have any recordings from the tour please post a note to Elephant Talk so we can start the trade routes going.I'd happily trade some of my Pink Floyd recordings for some off the Crimson tour.I'm sure some fan has gotten a recording from the tour.Let us all know.One last thing,I think that such recordings are to be shared with fans,not sold.Let's all work together on this so maybe we can get some good live Crimson music to share. Starless and Bible Black, Tony Cona [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 23:10:58 -0400 (EDT) From: DAVE GRUSKA Subject: MISC: Fripp as editor? Is it true (or possible) that Fripp is an editor of a popular magazine? If so, which one? Thanks, Dave Gruska [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Nadav Noah Caine Subject: THRAK: impatience Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 20:59:58 -0700 (PDT) This weekend I finally had a chance to give Thrak a careful,fully attentive listening, and though as I was *mildly* disappointed, like everyone, when they didn't do things I would have liked (e.g. I miss the Disciplinesque guitar that unifies, e.g., the songs "Frame by Frame", "Waiting Man," and "3 of a Perfect Pair"), I joyfully greeted the new music fondly on its own terms. One thing I noticed above all else was that the music lacked *patience*. I constantly feel that they want to move on as soon as they start doing something. I like the mellotron, of course, but I think they use it as a crutch to fuse disparate parts. They occasionally find a kind of patience, I think on the reworking of One Time, and in the restrained Are You Experienc- ed-esque guitar lead of Walking on Air, that make both especially successful in my view. I am disappointed in the hurried quality overall though, since after the kind of spirit one hears on "Firepower" on "Damage" with Robert, Pat, and Trey, or the 15 minute long "Waiting Man"'s with the quartet during their last tours, I'm surprised at the rush and shifts on Thrak. Even Larks Part Three from 3 of a Perfect Pair has a kind of self-conscious relaxed pacing that the early tracks on Thrak are missing. I hope that they recover the aspect I'm trying to get at on tour. Does anyone else see what I'm getting at? - Nadav Caine [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Brian Thomson Subject: MISC: Time Out Thrak Review, Mojo RF Interview, TL in Bass Player Date: Sun, 14 May 95 13:29:00 PDT First of all, ignore Time Out completely, except when they stick to pure facts. I've been reading them, on and off, for three years, and they can't see beyond London local trends, despite what they may claim. They've got to be controversial, it's their job, but these guys (and girls) have got their heads stuck all the way up their... Secondly, the new Mojo magazine has seperate interviews with Robert Fripp and Brain One. The RF interview covers quite a bit of familiar ground, but I like RF's reaction to photographers and their daft requests; "I wouldn't actually sit like this unless I was trying to fart."; and the resulting story about Peter Gabriel and health food diets... Interestingly, RF's birthday is May 16, i.e. this coming Tuesday. That may be why the UK tour starts the next day? Happy Birthday, Mr Fripp! The interview also talks about the financial crisis due to E'G's Lloyds "Marine 475" disaster. I heard that Jon Anderson had similar troubles with his management and was declared bankrupt last year, so RF isn't exaggerating at all. It also makes the astonishing statement that Thrak will need to sell almost half a million US copies to make RF the same profit as 12000 copies of 1999:Soundscapes! What the hell are Virgin playing at?! Thirdly, Tony Levin's interview in Bass Player is the best I've ever seen with him (which isn't saying much, I know, but...). The text of the interview is at gopher://gopher.enews.com:2100/00/alpha/af/bass_player/Current%20Issue/05019 5.1 so if any of you are transcribing it, you might as well stop now! They don't want it posted anywhere, but I'll be willing to mail it privately to anyone without Gopher access (the above address works with Mosaic and NetScape, of course) Lastly, wouldn't it be great if RF (and TG?) could find time for a Soundscapes concert in London, before or after the RAH sets? The Jazz Cafe' Camden would be a great venue - small yet spacious and light. How about it, DGM? Anybody interested in a pint (of anything) before or after the 17 May concert, talk to me (privately). I'll be in Box 14, and I stand the wait much longer..! briant at computing dot emap dot co dot uk "Suddenly the music you're playing comes alive and it's as if life itself suddenly begins... if the music is true - then nothing touches me...nothing." - Robert Fripp, 1995 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 16:48:27 +0300 From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) Subject: MISC: new crimson stuff? Mark Finney wrote (ET188): > 30 minutes before the show it went over to music with electric piano, > mellotron, bass, percussion. It certainly sounded like KC but > much more open, > mellow and reflective. I have all their albums and this was new. I'd be really interested to find out more about this new stuff. Was RF referring to this when he said in a recent interview (ET182): > "There's a whole lot of new King Crimson music that we won't be playing > on this tour because I'm currently doing an interview with you today". --- jukka kukkonen (j at vrooom dot pp dot fi) finland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 16:48:47 +0300 From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) Subject: MISC: soundscapes Good Evening Hippies, I believe sound sculptures are really happening in the modern music scene right now. You start with a piece and then remove the unnecessary parts to discover the structure. You work from a cluster of noise towards silence. For example, The RF String Quintet's "the Bridge Between" doesn't suffer from unnecessary noise like "Red". A prime example is Fripp's eclectic guitar solo on 'Blue' featuring 'Starless'. 'Threnody for Souls In Torment' really comes from a special place - it's 'Providence' of the 90s. So trade your 'Red' LP's for soundscapes like '1999' - it's the sound of future. --- jukka kukkonen (j at vrooom dot pp dot fi) finland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: John Neumann Subject: MISC: Pretentious nonsense? Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 12:48:08 -0400 (EDT) On Wed, 10 May 1995 Mike Dickson wrote: >>From Mark Clements (mpc at mbsmm dot com) >> As I'm sure everyone is aware, King Crimson does not make music for us. >> They make music for the only reward a musician receives: "the privilege >> of standing in the presence of music when it leans over and takes us >> into its confidence". >Sorry Mark, but you're swallowing far too much of the pretentious nonsense >Fripp has been spouting for the last twenty years or so. He makes music to >earn a living, just like every other professional musician. A great >musician he might be, but he's in it for the money. How dare you call this pretentious nonsense! I suppose you're upset that Fripp is playing in a dark corner during this tour, and you figure you are paying to SEE him, and not just hear him, so you feel ripped off. It's obvious you're being narrow-minded about the performer/artist relationship, and you should open your mind to new musical experiences. In fact, one of the most powerful times when music has taken me into its confidence was when I attended a Rod Munch (a local post-modern/deconstructive/ambient performing artist) show here in the Cleveland/Akron area. As I and the other attendees were waiting in line to enter the hall, Rod walked past and nodded to us. As it turns out, no one except Rod was allowed into the hall. Two hours later, Rod re-emerged, looking a little worn from the sheer intensity of his encounter with the musical forces inside. While we didn't get to actually see or hear this take place, seeing him enter the concert hall and KNOWING he was inside made the stand outside worthwhile. In fact, the discomfort of having no place to sit actually intensified the feeling of intimacy and community with the other attendees, and I believe this was the effect Rod was going after with this arrangement. Of course, I'm making this all up. I agree, Mike, that Fripp needs to get a grip on reality, and deal with his duties as a performer. On the other hand, it's not so bad. Seeing KC will be like seeing 5 world-class musicians playing, accompanied by a piped-in Fripp. I'll just sit back and enjoy watching Bill, Adrian, Pat, Tony, and Trey do their thing. See you in Buffalo, John Neumann [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 13:38:56 -0400 From: BMomchilov at aol dot com Subject: MISC: Kneeling at the Shrine ---------------------------------------- "I was never told that the good things in life aren't in the hands of others." ---------------------------------------- In the wake of all the excitement over King Crimson #11, the upcoming tour and the numerous idiopathic hyperbolic critiques of _THRAK_, it might be nice to get away from current events and discuss an often overlooked, but incredible album entitled: _Kneeling at the Shrine_. Released in 1991 (as a point of reference, just before _The Essential King Crimson - Frame by Frame_ ) on E'G Records LTD, _Kneeling at the Shrine_ is th e one and only album (so far) from Robert Fripp's _Sunday all over the World_ group. SaotW is comprised of Fripp on guitar, his wife Toyah Willcox doing vocals, Trey Gunn on Stick and vocals, and Paul Beavis on drums/percussion. The album's cover and inner sleeve were created by Bill Smith Studio (who brought you the artwork on FbF) and adds a unique monarchical/ethereal/English flavor to the CD. The music is enhanced through overdubs engineered by Trey Gunn and David Singleton and results in a much "larger" sound from the band, one that might be difficult to recreate if played in concert. Fripp's guitarwork is as sharp and timely as it ever has been; and IMHO this album showcases Trey Gunn's Stick playing at its' finest (remember, this was WAY before _1,000 Years_). For my money Paul Beavis could have easily been a part of the new Crimson, his drumming is cohesive and consistently to-the-point. Having said all that, it is now time to talk about Toyah Willcox. Some folks feel her vocals "take a little getting used to" and yet if you're honest and true to your ear, her vocal stylings are no more unique than those of Annie Lennox, Suzannne Vega, Gayle Moran (from the 80's version of _Return to Forever_), or even David Sylvian for that matter. Her singing is always interesting, never boring and responds in kind to the work of the other three musicians. Among the many highlights on the album are; "Sunday all over the World" (the song) featuring Fripp at his cross-picking best. "If I Were a Man" provides us with a view of the world through the eyes of a woman and is quite provocative. The album ends with a lament penned by Fripp and Willcox called "Freedom"; "I was always told that the good things in life were -- already gone " " " " -- totally wrong " " " " -- out of my reach. If you don't have this album buy it immediately, if not sooner...you won't regret it. Finally, best wishes to Fripp and Willcox on the occasion of their 9th weddi ng anniversary. And also, birthday greetings to Mr. Fripp who ironically shares a birthdate with the likes of Lenny Kravitz and Janet Jackson (Whew!! Now THAT'S an eclectic group of artists!!). Brian K. Momchilov ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "...o'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?" - Francis Scott Key ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ("play ball!!") [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 17:01:16 -0400 From: WarrM at aol dot com Subject: MISC: TouchStyle Hi All, > ANDREA (wrote) > TG has two new Sticks I've never saw before; they are Grand > Sticks with a guitar body at the bottom end, with all the > electronics on it!!!! The two instruments Trey is playing are called the "Warr Touchstyle Bass/Guitar". This is a 12 string stereo or mono instrument with bass and guitar capabilities. These instruments have a 9 piece wood laminant neck through construction with graphite bars inlayed internally. The electronics feature custom 18 volt active Bartolini pickups. You have many different tones at the flick of the switch (and very quiet too!). The bridge is a custom intonatable 12 string Wilkinson. The instrument can be played both in a vertical or horizontal position and can be tapped, plucked, snaped, or poped. Hope you enjoyed the show Andrea. I'm looking forward to the L.A. Show in june. I'm very excited. (Seems to long to wait!) See Ya, Mark Warr [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 17:08:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott T. Lillis" Subject: MISC: (Re:) Lyrics & Drumming Hi all, I've been a bit long winded lately, sorry. I wanted to make one small comment on Bruford's drumming on Thrak. One drummer here was commenting on how he seems to have gone off the deep end with the back up rhythm provided by PM. I agree with this entirely, it's really like what they did with the live Indiscipline. That was great there, it allowed total chaos drumming around a repeating rhythm(by AB) and was entriely appropriate to it's meaning. They seem to have done this on most of Thrak, which gets a little old, IMO. I think B'boom is the high point of this type of work though, it's drumming which seems to be the center piece of the song. In the Vroooms it seems like clutter however, because there are so many other elements. I enjoy it even so, I always criticize KC's stuff...it's partly why they are my favorite band. Tim Meadowcroft wrote: >5.re: debate over lyrics, AB vs. PS etc. and R.P-J. :) > To me a great lyric is one where the sound and beat of the words >fits. The sound encompasses the meaning of the words, but also the >tone of delivery, the context it conjures up, etc. I must agree that the delivery of the lyrics is (or should be) deeply linked with their meaning. The cases you mentioned (ET, Neurotica, Indiscipline) are good examples of this as well. AB does seem to be good at putting his lyircs in the proper setting(after all, he wrote them). I still think his content suffers none-the-less. I love ET's over all meaning, but aside from his conception of how to portray 'Elephant Talkers', the actually words sound like someone flipping through a Thesaurus. As much as I love P-J's lyrics, I must admit Wetton's voice suffers. I love Night Watch and Starless(vocally), but I often imagine how good they'd be with Lake singing. His voice really fit tunes like that, I loved his vocals in WoP and Epitaph. All this said, AB's a good singer and performer, but I think his lyrics are worse now than in the 80's. Scott [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:55:04 +0300 (EET DST) From: Saku Mantere Subject: MISC: An Interesting Discovery (ET) I found a rather interesting CD on one of my recent trips: David Torn's "Cloud Around Mercury". Torn himself is a competent enough fellow, having released "Polytown", quite a highly regarded jazz album with Bozzio and Karn a while ago. What makes this CD the most valuable for me, though, is the composition of the band: Bruford on (mostly electric) percussion and Levin on Grand Stick. The album was recorded in 1986 and the actual music is intriguing. Torn is a great guitarist in his own way - his playing isn't very technical, but his themes and solos have lots of meaning in them and his sound is great. Levin and especially Bruford have lots of room and there's also a trumpetist called Mark Isham on the album who manages to enrichen the overall sound quite a bit. Just my .02c on Thrak: It is a KC album allright - perhaps not their most brilliant release (my personal favorite is Discipline), but a unique piece nonetheless. I'm personally having a hard time understanding the idea behind the separation of Inner Garden and Radio and for the life of me cannot see the value of Walking on Air (even though I do enjoy the soundscapes on that), but on the other hand pieces like the VROOOMs, B'Boom/Thrak and Sex,Sleep,Eat,Drink,Dream are classics. The most important feature on the album, in my view, is the drumming. Like it or not, you'll have to admit that the virtuoso performance by B/M is something you haven't heard before. Even though there might be a place in the field for the likes of Charlie Watts, I certainly welcome the chance to hear 5/8 and 4/4 being played in different tempos so that they intermix perfectly (S,S,E,D,D's B-part; by the way if anybody knows the actual word for playing 5 against four in this manner - like playing 3 against 1, 2, 4 etc. is called a triad - please share that information with me! I'd also appreciate the names for other polyrythms is English. It's a bit hard to communicate with just the finnish terms...) Saku * Saku Mantere * "Narri, edell{ n|yryytt{j{{si, * * Helsinki University of Technology * ilman ylenemisen tahtoa, * * Faculty of Electrical Engineering * hilpe{n{ vailla varjoa... * * More Info: finger smantere at alpha dot hut dot fi * min{ rakastan sinua!" * [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 08:59:10 -0800 From: delgadil at cisco dot com (Kevin Delgadillo) Subject: THRAK: a big dissappointment Hello fellow Crimheads, I've been a big fan of Crimson for about 10 years now, with the Wetton-Fripp-Bruford-Cross combo as my absolute fave. Back then they broke so much new ground and made many strides in inventing music, it was unbelieveable. Even the _Discipline_ era brought forth some great music. However, IMHO, _THRAK_ is a big disappointment. What's the deal with the "Let's make a wimpy Beatles reunion album" attitude? Belew's impact on the band is most notable on THRAK; his whiney vocals and incredibly cheesey lyrics are in the foreground all too often. I get the feeling that Fripp et al decided that it was time to make a poppy album in order to make some moolah. Up until now, I considered it sheer blasphemy to say anything negative about Crimson. Now I feel that they deserve some flak about Thrak. People on ET seem to respond to negative reviews of THRAK with the "KC are continuously evolving" discussion. That's fine, and we all agree with that. However, there are many of us who don't like the pop-machine into which they have evolved. Instead of continuing their trend-setting tradition, they have opted to stylize themselves after the Beatles, a band which has been dead for many, many years. Sure, a few of the tunes on THRAK are still "progressive", but they sound recycled to me. What's the deal here? Is the next Crimson album going to be a full-blown tribute to the disco-era (complete with Bee-Gees vocals)? They should have quit while they were ahead. Flame on, but this is my opinion. Kevin --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Delgadillo Product Manager - Software Release Phone : (408) 526-7334 FAX : (408) 526-4952 e-mail: delgadil at cisco dot com Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134 || || || || |||| |||| ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. Cisco Systems, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:19:54 +0200 (DFT) From: "C. Kazzer Anglistik" Subject: MISC.: Def. Ed./Headcandy/TOUR PROGRAMME/SPOILER Hi, everybody, DEFINITIVE ED.: here 's my share concerning the DE / record differences. The bass/stick at the beginning of SLEEPLESS is kind of hacked of bits on the DE whereas one line floats into the other on the record (forgive me my non-musicianness, but I hope you can guess what I mean). HEADCANDY: I don't know whether it is true, but my computer-stuff dealer said that BRIAN ENO'S HEADCANDY CD-Rom is on its way in the long awaited PC/IBM compatible version. It contains two pieces co-written by Fripp. I was able to watch a sequence of it in a review & it looked very promissing. TOUR PROGRAMME: Now, having been at the Berlin concert I must agree about the dearness of the merchandise. On the other hand the stuff is really nice & the TOUR PROGRAMME is really worth the money. It is very much in the style of the CD (THRAK/VROOOM) covers but the images / photos are larger i.e. nicer. Very arty band-photos & as a whole just the thing you want to take out & look at again & again (my opinion, of course). Fripp has supplied some of his witty & at the same time informative notes concerning KC line-ups, history, etc. So, everybody who has up to now wondered what THRAK, VROOOM, VROOOM VROOOM, MARINE 475 & KING CRIMSON may stand for, get answers of some sort or may be up for a good laugh. Here's an example: >> VROOOM An inevitable and remorseless forward motion which carries all before it VROOOM VROOOM 1 The same, but here it comes again. 2 A King Crimson instrumental (1994) with a middle section originally written, but not used, for "Red" (1974)<< Also, some new releases for 95 are mentioned, among them >> 1995. Soundscapes Live In California (1995) Volume One: Radiophonics Volume Two: A Blessing Of Tears Volume Three: Soundbites << SPOILER: As I said, I was in Berlin too. Now, as the concert has already been been reviewed I can only add, that I think, I remember the concert ending with IMPROV(Soundscapes)-Talking Drum-LTIA II. Fripp punched the last Soundscape sequence (3 or 4 notes) into his 'thingy' & had them repeated even after the band had left the stage & the people were leaving. I thought this a nice end for the concert. A stunning performance & those who still can't make out which of the drummers is playing what, will surely know after the concert. Hope, that was not too wordy. Claas Kazzer Leipzig, Germany [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:36:35 -0400 From: mpc at mbsmm dot com (Mark Clements) Subject: MISC: vampiric responses... Greetings to one and all. I wanted to respond to some of the reactions to my comments, and hopefully clarify them a little. As some small disclaimer, I remind everyone that all of this is just IMHO. David Maclennan writes: > ...But to say that KC do not make music for us, i.e. the people who > pay good money for their records and... to see them in concert > strikes me as a bizarre comment. bizarre? Possibly. It certainly isn't the "company line" when one hears most pop musicians interviewed ("We do it all for the fans, man."). But I stand by the statement. Read my comments to Mike Dickson below... > "Don't dislike it because of the musicians, because they are > irrelevant," says Mark. Eh??? Since when have musicians been > irrelevant in the creation of music?... The musicians are irrelevant because what is relevant is the music. If someone played you THRAK, and you thought it was the most wonderful album you had heard in years, then told you it was the new (insert the band you love to hate here) disc, would that change your opinion of the music? The point I tried to make in my previous post was that you shouldn't dislike a song or an album because of who performed it, you should dislike it because the *music* isn't to your liking. Not the musicians. > On a related note, I see from the gig reviews that Robert has been > lurking in the shadows rather than have any spotlight on him... I > can't help thinking it's a bit churlish... Whether he likes it or > not, Fripp has a responsibility to the people who pay money to > attend the group's concerts. I see this as an attempt by RF to shift the focus of the audience's attention to the music, as opposed to the musician. BTW, he was in the shadows the last KC go-round, also. I would also think that RF's response would be that he has a responsibility to the music, not the audience. Mike Dickson writes: > Sorry Mark, but you're swallowing far too much of the pretentious > nonsense Fripp has been spouting for the last twenty years or so. He > makes music to earn a living, just like every other professional > musician. A great musician he might be, but he's in it for the > money. Let me relate a short personal story: I am a musician in my early thirties, playing the circuit on Long Island, NY. The local climate is one in which Top 40 cover bands are the only bands that make any money. Original bands (even the very best) are fortunate if they break even on expenses. Now, if I were truly in it for the money, I could join one of the many cover bands in my area. But that to me is very unsatisfying. I want to perform original music. And if I want to do that on LI, I endure the situation. Or move :) I am well aware that Mr. Fripp and company make their living playing music. But, in various interviews, it seems clear that KC is no cash cow. RF himself has stated that any of the members of KC could (and do) earn much more money doing sessions or solo concerts than they will in KC (a good quote from RF is "In this outfit, the musicians pay for their opportunity to play!"). In this light, I do not think it outrageous to state that KC does not make music with the objective to make money. All of the members of this band have been involved with projects far more mainstream than KC, and I think collectively they have the ability to produce a "product" that would appeal to a much broader segment of the population (which, in turn, would produce far greater revenues). But they choose instead to make the music they want to make, regardless of how it will be received. Okay, I've run off at the mouth (keyboard, actually) long enough. I'm sure I've provided even more "grist for the mill", so to speak. Later, -- Mark Clements mpc at mbsmm dot com "Arf, she said." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: E#KIRKD at ccmail dot ceco dot com Date: Mon, 15 May 95 14:22:21 CST Subject: MISC: "People" In response to Paul Martz's ET #189 posting about the lyrics in "People": The strength of the words is usually not terribly important to me unless the song was written in support of the words. Most pop songs are written that way. In general I don't think King Crimson starts with the lyrics, so instead they exist for mood, or to add structure to the music (IMO). With that in mind I don't think that the concern is so much with *what* the words are saying, as much as *how* it is being said. There are two things that I personally don't like about "People": 1) the way Belew sings the words is weak and without much forcefulness (unlike, say, in "Neal, Jack and Me"), and 2) the chorus has that annoying "oh oh oh" in it. Even the word "people" is a small, tinny sound (check out the Monty Python sketch about tinny and woody sounding words). But if you do look at the words, rather than compare this song to a song from a different writer and era, why not compare it to the lyrics in "Neurotica". Belew explained those lyrics as being inspired by watching the people on the streets below his New York City hotel room. There is just so much more imagery and depth to the analogies in "Neurotica". The descriptions and ideas in "People" are presented in a bland, obvious and uninspired manner: people do this, and people do that, and people do this, and people do that... If we just look at subject matter, King Crimson lyrics have always been well in tune with their time: Sinfield's late sixties legendary images, Palmer-James' more modern seventies concepts, Belew's eighties love songs in a neurotic age. Perhaps once the 90's have passed these newer lyrics will be seen to have their place as well. On a separate note, any ideas as to why the lyrics from "Walking on Air" are printed backwards on the Dinosaur CD single back cover? Anyone? Anyone? Daniel Kirkdorffer e#kirkd.ccmail.ceco.com - "... May I make one suggestion...? If we're not loud enough, sooner perhaps you'd care to listen more attentively." (R. Fripp at Arlington, Texas 1973) - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 21:15:18 -0500 From: sanderso at gac dot edu (Scott T. Anderson) Subject: MISC: Scott Tillis on Cirkus and the KC/Satan connection Scott Tillis wrote: >In theory terms, its just an alternation between a root note >and the diminished 5th.( I think). Fripp has always indulged in diminished >and tri-tone(aka the Devil's chord....kinda sheds light on the Devil's >triangle, I don't think that's a coincidence). I remember reading something about the name King Crimson being another name for Satan. Makes the "Devil's Triangle" and the KC-tritone obsession intriguing! _____________________________________________________________________________ Scott T. Anderson Gustavus Adolphus College, St. Peter, MN E-mail: sanderso at gac dot edu World Wide Web: http://www.gac.edu/~sanderso "Ignorance has always been something I excel in." -- King Crimson, "Dinosaur" ____________________________________________________________________________ _ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:52:53 MDT From: "MARK J. 719-540-1232" Subject: MISC: Greetings, Beggings, and Observations As I have just received my first ET digest, I have to say how impressed I am at the devotion, education, diversity, and lucid nature of the denizens here. I am truly honored to be taking part. For my maiden post I have few items; 1 - Most importantly. I was planning to see KC in Denver on June 18, but my buddy backed out as this is fathers day (WIMP) and now I am left high and dry with nary a ticket to be found. If there are any "extras" around, please let me know. I will no doubt be alone, but as it is general admission, I would love to join a group of devotees that are also computer savvy. OK enough begging. 2 - There is an extraordinary amount of posts opining one way or the other about THRAK. To misquote Rodney King, " Can't we all just get along?" Opinions are just that, none are right, none are wrong. It gets very old reading, "I like this...", "I hate that.. " posts. Much more interesting are "Did you notice that this sounds like...." posts and informational stuff. Of course, this is just my opinion (sic). 3 - I had heard rumors about TL & TG performing a piece on dual sticks called "Internet", could this be the much touted intro to Elephant Talk? For those that have heard it, is it the quintessential stick counterpoint piece that I have been hoping for? All for now! Mark J. ************************************************************************** * * * Mark Jakusovszky markj at atmel dot com * * Mixed Signal Marketing * * Atmel Corporation * * Colorado Springs, CO * * * * Opinions expressed herein are solely those of the author. * * * ************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Craig Dickson Subject: MSC: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:37:17 -0700 (PDT) |From: Finney Mark |Subject: THRAK: Lyrics to Marine 475 Explained | |In the programme for the current tour Fripp wrote that Marine 475 was the |name given by Lloyds Insurance to the year when everything went wrong for |them (Exxon Valdez, cyclones in Florida, etc). These claims brought Lloyds |to the brink of ruin and bankrupted many investors (so called "names"). I |assume that the other words and numbers are also Lloyds related. It seems odd to say that Marine 475 is a "year". I had figured it was a category of shipping-related insurance policies that saw heavy claims due to the Valdez, the hurricanes, etc. The lyrics to the piece seem to reflect this sort of usage; the numbers can be seen as a set of insurance categories that did very poorly for Lloyd's in recent years: Marine 475, 410, 400, 062, 1009, 1097, 65 Non-Marine 10, 190, 510, 1148 Motor 254 Aviation 545 Then again, I don't claim to be an expert on insurance, so who knows. This is just my guess. |From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) |Subject: THRAK: _People_ chorus | |_People_ could be said to make an analogy between |clockwork and energy (the "mainspring") and the power of the human |race. [...] _People_'s chorus is |just plain wrong: people do not turn the world around. To say that the viewpoint expressed in "People" -- even just in the chorus -- is "just plain wrong" is, itself, just plain wrong. Did you think Adrian meant it *literally*? If so, go look up "metaphor" in the nearest dictionary. I thought what he meant was that (to put it in much more didactic terms) humanity is an incredibly powerful force that has a pivotal role in determining the future of this planet. If you disagree with him, that's your business; I myself disagree with this idea much of the time, depending on what particular way I choose to look at things at any given moment. But do kindly show some trace of tolerance for other viewpoints. As for the song itself, I may as well offer my own opinion. "People" is the only piece on THRAK that I genuinely dislike. I don't find it at all interesting musically, and lyrically I don't think it says anything that hasn't been said quite enough already. For my money, the best pieces on the album are the instrumentals; of the songs with lyrics, I most enjoy "Walking on Air" and "Dinosaur". Craig [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 95 23:16:19 -0500 From: Bob_Daniel at mail dot magic dot ca (Bob Daniel) Organization: Magic Online Services Inc. Subject: MISC: Re: Great Deceiver worth it? > Question: Is THE GREAT DECEIVER box set really worth it? When I saw that it included a live Fracture, probably my favourite KC tune of that period, which was recorded at Toronto's Massey Hall, a concert I had the good fortune to attend, there was no doubt in my mind: I would have this at ANY price! Now that the adrenalin rush of discovery has worn off, my only quibble is the repetition of a few tracks, and some bad edits. The sound is better than expected and the booklet is enormous. Oh, and one of the discs is labelled wrong on most copies. Cheers, 13 0 13. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 23:08:35 -0600 From: cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu (James Hines) Subject: MISC: explanation of "radio show" ET ers: Last issue I posted the contents of my KC show I did. Upon reading it in ET, I noticed it was kinda confusing to understand. The column on the right (starting w/ Schizoid Man) was first and the column on the left (starting w/ Waiting Man [that's pretty odd-2 different "men"] ) was second. Hope that clears things up a bit. Rock on ya'll!! James "THE MAN" Hines [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 23:42:54 -0600 From: cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu (James Hines) Subject: MISC: Dinosaur single Here it is:DO NOT BUY THE DINOSAUR SINGLE!! IT IS A RIPOFF!!! Unless you're one of the KC fans who *has* to own everything the band puts out, like all of the 7"s, don't get Dinosaur. Why? Because: 1.The song Dinosaur is a cut version of the song. "They" cut out the entire middle mellotron section (the best part) and thus cut about 2 minutes off of it. 2. VROOOM is the version of the song from VROOOM, which most of you probobly already have. 3, 4, &5. Cloudscape is cool, but too short (about as long as Cage). Elephant Talk and Red are good, but it is pretty pointless to buy the single just for these being that they'll all 3 be on the upcoming live album. I know I'm going to buy it, and I'm sure most of you will too. I can wait. Truthfully, the original studio recordings of Elephant Talk and Red are better than the new live versions. Besides the EXCELLENT stick part, the lyrics are the best part of ET. You only get the *full* effect on the Discipline version. I think Tony is THE SHIT (World Diary *IS* better than THRAK), but I like Wetton's bass line on Red better; it's a lot more straight-forward and "foundational" than Tony's. The studio version is also more powerful. The point being, you can (soon) get all of these songs by listening to stuff you prob. (or will) have. It is useless to buy. 6. I paid $6.99 for it. Why? It is definitely not worth that much. BUT, I had NO problem paying $15.99 for VROOOM. It is worth $16 and it *was* all original stuff. Hopefully, some of you will not fall for this rip-off like I did. BTW....BUY WORLD DIARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT RULES!! James "THE MAN" Hines [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 95 13:20:32 BST From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham) Subject: MISC: Bruford's recent work In ET #188, pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) wrote: >I'll go even further and say the parts of THRAK I like best >are the parts where Bruford is absent or at least toned down. Alot of his >contribution to THRAK just sounds like noise to me.... I agree to a certain extent, although IMHO the situation is far worse on the VROOOM EP. The track THRAK on that EP is the worst example. On the album THRAK, Bruford does seem rather more disciplined, especially on the track VROOOM, where I'd say his contribution is essential. But, as you say, Bruford has of late been all over the place. This same style is evident on the later Earthworks albums. I'd say the last thing Bruford did that I can relate to is the first Earthworks album. Within the context of Earthworks, I guess he has more of an excuse, since it's supposed to be a jazz band, although to me it's become a cold, emotionless one. It seems as though Bruford has this burning desire to be a jazz drummer, but IMHO he just doesn't seem to have the right swing for it. Why not accept things as they are and be content to "only" be the world's best rock drummer? Life's a bitch, eh? Hands up who else around here would like to hear Bill get down and boogie again, the way he used to on things like "We'll Let You Know", "Fracture", "One More Red Nightmare" and (dare I say it) "Perpetual Change"? >I feel bad for saying this. I like Bruford. I'm a drummer myself. A lot of >what he did with Crimson in the 80s is completely inspirational to me. I used to be a drummer many years back; for me his truly magnificent work was in the 70's (I guess I'm older than you). It also makes me feel bad to dislike what he's doing now, especially seeing as how he can probably do more on the kit with one finger than I can with all four limbs :-) What makes me even more uneasy about saying this is that we know there is a route via which he might get to read this, and it feels disrespectful to be saying these things. So, if you ever do see this, sorry Bill. Clive Backham McDonnell Information Systems, UK email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 08:32:21 -0500 From: wsjenks at iastate dot edu Subject: MISC: bumper/industry As long as folk are commenting on where they've heard KC quips... A few days ago, Marine 475 was used as a news bumper on National Public Radio (!). I think it was All Things considered, but could have been Morning Edition...can't quite remember now. Of course, these folks also use a fair amount of Brian Eno and Kronos Quartet, so they can't be all bad! While I'm at it, over my last couple months of reading this list, it's become clear that a lot of readers are none too thrilled with the ToaPP album. While we can debate the merits of the whole, I personally think "Industry" is one of the more interesting tracks Crimson has put out. Not very complicated. Relatively "obvious" what's happening, and so on, but then "Peter and the Wolf" is a classic, too. I'd be curious to hear what others have to say about this track, either here on ET or by direct email. Cheers! William (--------------------------------------------------------------------) ( William S. Jenks voice: (515) 294-4711 ) ( wsjenks at iastate dot edu fax: (515) 294-0105 ) ( Department of Chemistry, ISU 50011-3111 Photons from Heaven ) (--------------------------------------------------------------------) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Niko P., 2743 (AUWI)" Organization: Uni O., FB Wirtschaftswiss. Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 18:47:09 +0200 Subject: THRAK: THRAK/BEATLES Hi there, this is my first contribution to the list. Thankx to Toby for subscribing me. And sorry for me bad English. Instead of introducing myself I just would like to mention that I'm a serious crimhead since many years despite the fact that I'm mainly listening to jazz, fusion, Zappa, punk, noise and many progressive groups. On the 7th of May I was in the Philipshalle in Duesseldorf to hear the King... I'm still aleurlkaloeihjfnailuroienaleuvneoiaeirjjaei, really!! I don't give a review because there had been already a very good review of this concert here. A small comment on THRAK. Indeed, this is a historical record. I think it never happened before that the re-union or re-appearance EXCEEDED every serious expectation, like THRAK and VROOOM did. And don't forget, in case of CRIMSON, the expectations had been very high, due to the quite long absence and the high level of creativity and importance of this combo. From my point of view, one could not expect a new LARK, RED, or whatever. We already have LARK, RED and all the other unbelieveable masterpieces, so why should they repeat this stuff at any price? On the other hand, in a german radio interview, FRIPP explained that THRAK is extremly influenced by RED. I seem to remember remarking him that RED was the result of a certain musical approach which he tries to apply again because it is still relevant. Clearly, there are so much other influences, but perhaps the RED approach implies a certain structure which opens the music for different styles, without becoming less crimzoid. Why is it so hard to accept that some parts of THRAK actually sound BEATLEsque? Remember the POLICE influence on BEAT. I don't think that ADRIAN, who brings in these influences, does it for its own sake or for pure commercial reasons. I think it's a natural part of his own development. First, you can't choose the voice you have. It's a matter of biology. And it's by no means bad to sound like LENNON. Furthermore, during the last 25 years new supergroups had been formed, new musical styles had been introduced by the music industry suckers, but also by innovative musicians. But today it is more evident than ever that the BEATLES in 66-69 were the most important influence. Believe me I'm not a BEATLES fan. Nobody wants to be a BEATLES fan. Paradoxically, even many creative, non-commercial, and by no means old-fashioned bands, after inventing new ways of expression, may experience a stage of their development which is assosiated with typical elements of the BEATLES music of 66-69. Today, it is more difficult to find new ways of musical expression than it was yesterday, because nearly every noise or structure of sound which is possible had been tested already. Of course, tomorow it's even harder. Play a guitar with seven and a half strings, a midi, a synclavier, use an electric srewdriver, trigger different sample sounds, play a 34/43 rythym .. but what does it matter? Some bright guy will figure out at once, whether Bach, Satie, Cage, Coltrane, Zappa, Davis, Henry Cow or the Beatles already played similar stuff many years ago. So, what to do? Use the old stuff, but do it your own way. Use already existing music like a language or an instrument. Connect different styles to build up new structures of your own music. And if you realize that your own ideas sound like anything which is already existing, don't worry. Rather, carry it to extremes until you find a new dimension of it or elecit a certain kind of humor from it. This kind of mudule music had been employed by lots of innovative musicians (Zappa, Zorn, Melvins,...), because they realized that it is pointless to search for 100 percent new music. I think, to a certain degree, KC does this as well. But the way they do it results >from a very high level of individual development. It's just wonderful. Only KC can sound like this. Fortunately, the most important, although older stuff, they may refer to, is the pioneering work of their own! Different spirits -- one character? Once upon a time there was a band and the first song on the first record was about a SCHIZOID man ... Sorry again for my bad English, not to mention the n o n s e n s Niko e. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Kerns, Steven R - SUN7" Subject: MISC: "Court" sound quality Date: Tue, 16 May 95 07:45:00 PDT In ET 187, Joe Hartley mentions the MFSL version of "Court". I bought this sometime in the early 80s, and, yes, it is a gem. I saw one for sale in Baltimore about 6 years ago for fifty bucks, so it is definitely a collector's item. Now, here is my understanding of what happened. Very soon after this was released by MFSL, EG started coming out with their own half-speed mastered vinyl versions of all pre-"Discipline" material, except "Earthbound" and "USA" (I think). This somehow caused a licensing dispute with MFSL, which resulted in MFSL no longer pressing "Court". This leads to a question that I have asked on a.m.p., but was not satisfactorally answered: what happened to these EG half-speed masters when it came time to create CDs? From all that I have read in ET and on a.m.p. regarding dissatisfaction with the original CDs, it seems fairly obvious that the half-speed masters were not used for the original releases of the CDs. I am also fairly confused about "Exposure". My cd, which is 8-9 years old states that it was remastered by Fripp. Yet, I hear that the "Definitive Edition" of "Exposure" was remastered yet again and contains different vocals. Was there any differences between the first "Exposure" cd and the original album release? It seems to me that some of the spoken words were a little different, but it has been too long since I have heard the original album version to remember exactly. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "BILL MOXIM" Organization: Univ. of Alabama at Birmingham Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:34:50 -600 Subject: MISC: RE: Wanted Dinosaur EP >I've heard about the "Dinosaur" EP which has dinosaur, and some live cuts, >a couple to be on the next CD which will be live?? > >I can NOT find this EP around here, if you can get it, I will send you a >check and please ship it to me.. Any takers?? > > Thanks.. >Ron Gilliams I, like Ron, can not find the EP anywhere around town. However, there are always three other sources I'll check. They are all through -telnet- : Compact Disc Connection, CD Europe and CDNow!. I found the EP at CDNow! (telnet cdnow.com) for $6.79. Label info: Cema/Capitol 7777-38480-2. No song list provided... There IS only one release of the "Dinosaur" EP, right? Naturally I ordered it. I've ordered from them several times before - so they can be trusted. Anyhow - you can get it there, from anywhere! B'Bill __ __ _ ___ ....................................... || || // \\ || \\ : Bill Moxim - Dept. of Epidemiology : || || ||===|| ||==<< : Programmer/SOPH-BEV Administrator : \__// || || ||__// : ----- bmoxim at epi dot soph dot uab dot edu ----- : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ' [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 12:28:28 -0500 (EST) From: MORIBUND THE BURGERMEISTER Subject: THRAK: Crimson as Pop? Greetings fellow Et'ers!! I just picked up today's (May 16) edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer and guess what I found no the back page of the Entertainment section... King Crimson's "THRAK" on a list of "Best New Pop Albums." I nearly thrakked in my pants when I saw this. They are listed along with Bob Dylan's "Unplugged," Terence Trent D'Arby's "Vibrator" and White Zombie's "Astro-Creep 2000." As the saying goes, I don't know whether to thank them or drop them! Boy that brings me back to the not-so-distant days of my pop music listening youth which was dominated by such putzes as Rick Astley, Richard Marx and Debbie Gibson. AAAaaaack! The word "pop" just doesn't bring back pleasant memories for me -- maybe this is why I was so at odds at seeing Crimso on this list. It says, "as rated by Inquirer critics" so I guess we know exactly who to thank or bomb, depending on your opinion. This is only the second time I've seen Crimson mentioned in a newspaper or magazine. Granted I'm a young Crimhead at 21 (though I've been into them since I was 15) but seeing their name in the mass media is a new ballgame for me. This is pretty darn ... weird! By the way, I like Letterman's set in London! It's even nicer than the Ed Sullivan theatre -- wish I could make it there to see them. Peace out, Crimheads! See ya in New York, Wash. D.C. and Seattle!!!! -Joe. P.S. Speaking of pop... did anyone else catch Elton John flip the bird during the Letterman show on Monday while singing "Made In England?" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: E#KIRKD at ccmail dot ceco dot com Date: Tue, 16 May 95 08:57:55 CST Subject: TV: KC on Letterman? We've been talking about this supposed KC appearance on Letterman May 19th for many moons now, but has anyone actually confirmed this with KC management? If you check the TV Guide or CBS Web pages (http://www.cbs.com/) you'll see no mention of King Crimson being on the show. The CBS Web pages have the guest list for each night. What's the deal folks? Has someone been setting all of us up for a great big no-show let down? Daniel Kirkdorffer e#kirkd at ccmail dot ceco dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 95 18:06:13 EST From: klaus at lac dot copel dot br (Klaus de Geus) Subject: MISC: Re: ET >From: "ToddM" >Organization: LaserMaster Corporation >Date: 11 May 1995 11:34:43CST6CDT >Subject: MISC: Crimson on the Radio? > >This is the only Crimson I've ever heard on radio, I was more surprised to >hear two tunes within one weeks time. I remember having listened to King Crimson on the radio here in Curitiba, Brazil, a few times. I heard some songs from the 70s and one (as far as I can remember) from the 80s (Matte Kudasai, I believe). It sounded a bit strange to me that KC has never been on the radio out there. I know radios normally don't play non-popular music, but a few radio stations do... ====================================================================== Klaus de Geus Internet: klaus at lac dot copel dot br Copel - SDI/DPST/VSPJ klaus at inf dot ufpr dot br Rua Coronel Dulcidio, 800 Voice: +55 41 322-3535 R.4459 Batel Fax: +55 41 331-4145 80420-170 Curitiba - PR Home: Rua Serafim Lucca, 434 Brasil Santa Felicidade 82320-400 Curitiba - PR [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 09:35:28 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: MISC: Crimson on the Radio? > This is the only Crimson I've ever heard on radio, I was more surprised to > hear two tunes within one weeks time. In the early 1970's it was quite common to hear King Crimson songs on the "progressive" FM stations. Back in 1980-81, I heard "Epitaph" (from "In the Court of the Crimson King") played on Radio Juventud, a Venezuelan shortwave station. I was completely stunned. I just couldn't believe it. Mike Tanigawa (Sr. Customer Support Engineer) /\ Alta Group --- A business unit of Cadence Design, Inc. /= \ 'Better know nothing than half-know many things' /== \ -- Nietzsche /=== \ E-Mail: tanigawa at csi dot com / \ TEL: 415-358-3679 FAX: 415-378-7591 /__________\ 919 E.Hillsdale Blvd. Suite 300 Foster City, CA 94404 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 16 May 95 22:19:23 EDT From: Josh Emery <73174 dot 3300 at compuserve dot com> Subject: MISC: TGD Derek asked if THE GREAT DECEIVER is worth it. YES, every cent. Also Derek you can buy GD from Compact Disc Connection online. Telnet to cdconnection.com. It's $55.00 from there. Also this is a great place for the posts I've seen saying they can't find a specific disc. Josh [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 23:53:54 -0400 From: DMB5561719 at aol dot com Subject: TOUR: Fripp & 'de Orb/21st Cen. Man Recently I saw something (somewhere) in the USENET News groups or maybe it was here in Elephant Talk about Crimson and the Orb playing in the same city on the same night. For example: June 3 NYC -> Crimson at Town Hall -> Orb at the Roseland Someone I met this afternoon (in the real world - not on the net) pointed out that they are both playing in Boston on the same day. Make's the old brain chemicals (organic) snap and pop! You see...the Roseland is only about 10 blocks away from Town Hall. Yes, yes - put 2 + 2 together. Only speculation folks, but who knows? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * On another bent note: The latest issue of Guitar World has an interview with the Fripp unit and...dig this: a transcription of 21st Century Man! The issue has a cover with Hendrix...a sort of tribute issue. FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD Varooom Varooom Varooom Thrak Thrak Thak! FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD FFWD disengage, disengage, arrrrrgh! db * [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:45:42 -0600 (CST) From: Z4K42 at ttacs dot ttu dot edu Subject: MISC: Matte Kundasai Someone has mentioned a missing guitar part on Matte Kundasai. I had assumed that I had the definitive edition since almost all of my CDs are definitive editions, but I realized that I had a non-definitive edition. I was wondering if someone could give the exact minutes between which the guitar part that ended up being taken out happened. I keep listening to it, but I cant tell which part everyone is talking about. Scott Arnold [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 07:46:20 -0400 (EDT) From: DAVIREAD at delphi dot com Subject: INFO: D Source for DInosaur CD single To whoever asked about availability of the Dinosaur CD single, there's a service on the Internet called CDNow. They list the disc for 6.79 (plus shipping). I did business with them recentluy and got my disc 4 days after I ordered it. (Continental US) Telnet to cdnowc.com _Dave_ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 May 95 13:25:22 CDT From: jlyons at ipc23 dot rad dot rpslmc dot edu (Jack Lyons) Subject: THRAK: Re: Thrak observation Harking back to the comments of Belew on Zappa to Fripp: it is my opinion that VROOM, VROOM has definite Zappa influence particularly in its' "orchestral" arrangement. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) From: "M. S. AtKisson" Subject: MISC: not poetry, but lyrics There's been a lot of discussion about the types of lyric in the different incarnations of KC, and I wanted to add my $0.02. The early, fantasy-oriented lyrics were written when many groups were experimenting with that format. I'm unsure who pioneered it, so to speak, but I cite Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, and Hawkwind as examples of other bands around the same time period with good deal of pure fantasy in their lyric sheets. KC certainly managed to use this format less tritely, and in ways that have stood up to time. I believe the longevity stems primarily from the quality of the music, although I certainly admit that the words were also much better than others of the same time. It is the whole music, melody and lyrics together, that I suspect moves Belew. My own songwriting style is that it all comes together--I can rarely do words without melody and vice-versa. Often it is the pattern, or sense, of certain sounds with certain melodies that make songs work. Yes, I often listen to some of his solo work and find it a bit too "messagey" for my tastes, but it is rare to find a happy songwriter who is generally very good at it. It's easy to write angst and gloom, hard to write happy, and very difficult to write lyrics that don't mean anything but that really work. I forget the title, but there is a song off the "Mr. Music Head" disc that contains a great string of word-play segues. "Every dog has his Dayton, Ohio..." Even old KC had it's moments of (urm, um..) artistic ambiguity --Cadence and Cascade doesn't make a lot of sense, but it pretended to be linear enough that you don't notice. I don't hold that a song lyric must be poetry that stands on its own, although it's nice when it can. The words sung can be chosen for their sound in the overall song, for their rhythm, for their meaning. In the best cases, all of it comes together, and the lyric is as integral as the melody. Too much forced meaning can ruin rhythm and sound, etc. It's always a tough balance. King Crimson almost always finds that balance, more so than Belew on his own. Pretty remarkable * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * M. S. (Peg) AtKisson * (matkisso at opal dot tufts dot edu) * Department of Neuroscience * "His frontal lobe Tufts University School o' Medicine * a retread..." Boston, Massachusetts * [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:51:46 -0400 From: MikeTEACHR at aol dot com Subject: THRAK: Thrak As a veteran of 4 guitar craft courses, I recall that THRAK was a guitar craft exercise/song way back when. THRAK can be played on ANY instrument, or just clapped. THRAK has two parts, played (or clapped) over each other: A part. 7 bars of 5, clapping on beats 1 and 4...example "1(clap), 2, 3, 4(clap), 5" repeated 7 times B. 5 bars of 7, clapping on beats 1, 4, and 6...example "1(clap), 2, 3, 4(clap), 5, 6(clap), 7" repeated 5 times. simple math shows that these two parts will begin and end on the same beat. The "song" usually starts and ends with 4 bars of the "A" rhythm, and can be repeated in endless cycles. This was introduced on the guitar craft courses i was on, usually as a clapping exercise, then played with guitars. It was, I think, and introduction in polyrhythms, to get students out of the lockstep of counting in 4, and as an exercise in the division of attention. Listen to the song THRAK and you'll hear whats going on. If this is confusing, e-mail me, and ill elaborate. PS. It took a novice (like me) a LONG time just to count 4 bars of 5: "/ONE 2345/TWO2345/THREE2345/FOUR2345" much less begain to clap on beats. give it a year or two!!! miketeachr at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 May 95 19:48:13 EDT From: "michael D. Jeter" Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 TGD is well worth it. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 17:28:30 -0700 From: lantz at PrimeNet dot Com (Bill Lantz) Subject: MISC: Trey Gunn on FX's Backchat Greetings fellow ET'ers: Did anyone catch Trey Gunn on the FX channel's "Backchat" program last week? While channel surfing last night I saw a brief repeat at the request of one of the viewers of Trey performing Beethoven's 'Fur Elise'. Anyone with the entire appearance of Trey please contact me and perhaps we can work out a trade. Bill "Anything played wrong twice in a row is the beginning of an arrangement" - Frank Zappa (1940-1993) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 11:16:00 +1000 From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: MISC, AUS, THRAK: bargain prices for KC for australian and melbourne particularly, KC fans, yesterday i saw at the heidelberg JB hifi thrak (uk release) $24.95 show of hands (league of craftys) $24.95 essential fripp and eno $24.95 fripp 1999 $24.95 various KC and fripp releases at $17.95 and most surprisingly vrooom $17.95 (this shop has a record of interesting pricing - i got NIN the downward spiral [which i think is an excellent though at times disturbing album] for $6.95 cause they thought it was an ep) as i either have the new stuff (bought at higher prices) or am not updating my cd collection at present, as far as i know they are still there [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 13:31:26 +0300 (CET-DST) From: "nella primavera fuori del tempo, l'albero secco fiorisce" Subject: MISC: lyrics and their meaning Hi, in #188 JD Ehm says >Now I know why Eno tried to stay away from >having lyrics that mean anything; people try to dissect and analyze them >(which can be fun) but sometimes miss the point that the voice, too, is an >instrument and should be regarded for the sound it makes, not neccessarily >for what is being said. This is a very important issue, especially for those, like me, whose native language isn't English. I started to hear English music since 1973 (The dark side of the moon) when I was 7 years old. I didn't understand lyrics and, maybe you know, in The dark side.. there are a lot of dialogues in and between songs, not reported in the album, whose meaning I missed. So it was naturally for me not to care about songs words. It's curious that now I think of human voice as an other instrument when I listen to Italian songs too. OK, in this case I understand lyrics but after a few times I've heard songs, voice is important for the sound rather than for the meaning. Of course lyrics are important: recently I heard Joe's Garage (F.Zappa) and the plot of the story is as important as music, so that I can appreciate the album only for a 50 percent, but I think that if you like song music you shouldn't care much about song words. Try to listen to music with lyrics sang in a language you don't know. I suggest you the Italian group Banco del Mutuo Soccorso: hear F.DiGiacomo's voice and don't care about the words. In Thela Hun Ginjeet I understand almost nothing of the lyrics, but I like it. Ciao, Stefano Pezzuto pezzuto at le dot infn dot it [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 May 95 12:46:48 EST From: "Cohen, Jordon" Subject: MISC: Evolution of a Tour... Hello ETers: Just a short comment about the complaints generated from the set lists from the Thrak European dates: Is it wrong to repeat a song in the course of a night? I don't think so. As Mr. Fripp's seemingly "live" philosophy about his music which is that it is generally governed largely by the people, place and the moment... This would indicate that the same song could be presented a totally different way the second time around which would stir different emotions from the participator (which includes you the listener). So looking at it that way, I have no problem listening to the same song twice as long as it has a different presentation (especially a quite good one like Dinosaur). I have not heard the grounds for these complaints with my own ears, so I can not say that the second taking of Dinosaur is drastically different, but evaluating this in the context of the talent and creativity of the band, I would bet it is quite different and not a disappointment. This brings me to a thought about the upcoming live CD: Live in Argentina. Is all the live material taken from those few Argentina dates? This would be a disappointment since I think the "evolution" of the Thrak tour will be a continuos thing. Song presentation and presence could and should change as the tour continues generating a wide range of selection for CD material. I would think that some of the later tour material would be better than the Argentina material. I read that little rehearsing occurred before those shows in Argentina. As the tour progresses, songs get tighter and evolve. Also, new material (post Thrak or even pre-Thrak) could occur as the tour progresses. So if the live CD is a snapshot of the early dates, live "gems" later in the tour could be missed. I hope the live CD captures the "complete evolution of the Thrak tour", but I will be happy with any live Crimson if the Dinosaur EP is a love letter to the Argentina CD. As a final comment, I would like to send a personal "Thank You" to the Band members for their music which stirs exploration in one's inner self. Not many bands can accomplish such a task especially over such a long period of time! class Cohenj { Cohenj() {}; // Jordon Cohen, cohenj at ttc dot com ~Cohenj() {}; // TTC - Germantown, MD }; [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: russell1 at intgp1 dot att dot com (Russell W Keating +1 708 979 3748) Date: 19 May 95 10:58:00 -0500 Subject: THRAK: bad CD cases To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Suntower Systems <70242 dot 1520 at compuserve dot com> wrotes: >1) More than one person has remarked on the jewel box being defective. I >concur: obviously this is a design flaw. I think this is a new CD case design that we will be seeing more of. When I bought THRAK I aslo bought a another new CD (it had the same case) and an older CD (it had the old friendly design). The old design had a colored flexible plastic that held the CD. With these new cases, the whole thing is made out of the clear, brittle plastic. The fingers that hold the CD broke on mine because they are not flexible enough. I think someone is trying to save money by making the CD case out of one plastic instead of two! Look at your older CD cases and you'll see what I mean. Russell Keating, N9LIL -----------> Send email to: russell1 at intgp1 dot att dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 22:09:05 GMT From: dave at verdant dot demon dot co dot uk (Dave Bevan) Subject: THRAK: Thrak / Passive Listening Previously I said that THRAK was solid, but not a classic. I would like to change my mind. This album is pure King Crimson, and I find it very difficult to see how anybody reading Elephant Talk cannot take it for what it is. Those who are disappointed are surely missing something. If you listen (actively as it where), how can you fail to see the roots of the work back in the most early of albums, including WoP (which was so much a mirror of KoCC, but subtly different). Most of the listening I have done is passive - whilst being on my computer. And some things just hit you - like B'Boom, or Inner Garden, or People - Excellent. And!!!! I think I might even prefer One Time to the version on VROOM! (apart from the sudden ending, which has just happened as I type). Generally, I find listening on the PC causes my to ignore the music, apart >from those tracks that really excel. Then I go back and listen more 'actively' and pick up the rest. -- Dave Bevan, | dave at verdant dot demon dot co dot uk Leamington Spa, | ------------------ United Kingdom. | -0-0-0-0-0-0- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 14:02:23 -0400 (EDT) From: MBRADBURN at NARVAX dot NAR dot EPA dot GOV Subject: MISC: Tonight...? I was at the CBS, Letterman homepage and it has had Annie Lennox listed as the musical guest tonight. Any info on if or when KC may appear. Really getting close to Neurotica - Martin Bradburn [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Kirkdorffer Date: 19 May 95 14:15:13 EDT Subject: MISC: Crimson Tide Is anyone else in the US getting a kick from seeing huge "Crimson Tide" movie posters... :-) David Kirkdorffer [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Eric Dongu" Organization: Indiana University Northwest Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:42:44 CST Subject: BELEW: Belew's Influence (long) I've read a some negative opinions about Adrian's presence in KC and what I'm interpreting as a feeling that he adds too much *commercialism* to the KC sound. Since The Beatles are often mentioned during discussions about AB's influences, I, too, will refer to them in this post. One powerful mechanism that made the Beatles (Lennon and McCartney) such great songwriters is their seemingly opposite takes on daily life and events. Two contrasting styles that together are greater than the sum of their parts. Whether this applies to AB and RF is a matter of taste, I suppose. Although, I've never had the good fortune of seeing KC live, in spite of over 20 years as a fan, I have seen AB solo or with one of three different backup bands at least a dozen times. I think he's great, especially with the Bears. If I had to criticize, I'd say that I prefer his earlier more analog sound over his current guitar-synth, everything sampled, sound. When I first saw him back in 81-82, I'd heard that a *guy that played with Bowie* was to play for three nights at a small club in town. I had no idea who he was. The name of the band, including AB, was Ga-Ga. I showed up on the second night and was blown away. I'd always been a big Hendrix fan, and the comparisons (within my own head) were inevitable. At this time, he was playing the old, beat-up looking Strat pictured on the Lone Rhino cover. It appeared that most of his effects were controlled by him via foot pedals on the floor. (Last time I saw him with the Bears, I think there was a lot pre-programmed stuff, effects-wise.) And he also played the slide a lot! The sound was considerably more raw then than it is today. I could easily see that raw version of AB sounding very good with RF in the context of the current KC lineup. Naturally, I went back the second night. In some way AB and RF, as well as the other KCers, *feed* on each other's energy. I sometimes have a hard time distinguishing the two guitarists (in spite of often dramatically different harmonic styles) and I consider myself an astute (just my opinion) listner. The final product is a result of a collaboration by all members of KC. Saying that one element of a joint effort is to blame for what you don't like about that effort doesn't make sense. All participants are responsible for the final product. Sorry for the length and my rambling. -Eric [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 19 May 95 23:53:40 EDT From: "michael D. Jeter" Subject: MISC: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #189 Ok...its may 19th, about midnight, I am watching letterman, and the musical gue st is.......Annie Lennox?????????????????????????? I love Annie, but, what gives?????? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]