From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun May 14 11:04:36 1995 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 18:12:06 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #188 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 188, Thursday, 11 May 1995 Today's Topics: REVIEW: THRAK in Time Out THRAK: oops THRAK: & cd rom STICK: Elephant Talk MISC: Photos & Fripp in concert. MISC: KC tour merchandise THRAK: without drums? THRAK: trivialities THRAK/QUERY: BB in Modern Drummer MISC: )-( )-( )-( )-( MISC: Definitive Editions - the debate continues MISC: '79 Frippertronics, Chicago THRAK: Yet again, THRAK... and then, lyricists MUSIC: VROOOM tab MISC: re:Elephant Talk #187 MISC: Re: Elephant Talk #187 MISC: Vampiric relationship? MISC: Beatles/THRAK/Belew THRAK: For and against the new sound THRAK: People MISC: Nice job Tony! MISC: early light shows... MISC: THRAKKIN' MISC : Lineup Complaints and Vampires MISC: "Court" Sound Quality MISC: Dos trios... MISC: miscellany GIG (SPOLIER!): Review KC Concert. Berlin 950508 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Please send all posts to toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The ET archives: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html FTP: The Americas: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et FTP: Rest of world: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk EMAIL: Send "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 95 10:04:06 PDT From: John Relph Subject: REVIEW: THRAK in Time Out Here's a review from the April 19-26 issue of _Time Out_ magazine. By Ross Fortune. Reprinted without permission. (Permission?! We don't need no stinking permission!) King Crimson `THRAK' Virgin Progressive rock classicism or posh heavy metal, call it what you will, King Crimson are a dull and torpid bunch. They always were of course, but the older they get, the more worthy, bloated and obnoxiously self-indulgent they seem to become. The problem is they haven't got the guts to create real fuck-off experimental music, and haven't got the talent to make timeless pop or rock. Happily at least, their lazily sterile attempt to mix the two proves profitable, finding favour with an aged music biz fraternity and a loyal, earnestly smug and pseudy fanbase. Starting out with seven minutes of portentous, turgid instrumental nonsense, `Thrak' eventually settles into a spineless blend of vapid, overproduced, highfalutin' bombast. Occasionally they try in vain to imbue their mightly mellotron rock operatica with a more simple and melodic sensibility, and at times there's a hint and a snatch of something more interesting (Fripp's guitar `soundscapes' are occasionally intriguing). But all such hope or promise is quickly subsumed beneath their suffocatingly dreary miasmic muso meanderings. Strangely, for a group of intellectual rock pioneers, the most discernable influence throughout is that of The Beatles. The lyrics are good, too: `Primal tribal apple egg vegetable eel, I have a new canoe but it does not have a wheel'. Powerful stuff. Enjoy! -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ba07693 at bingsuns dot cc dot binghamton dot edu Subject: THRAK: oops Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Yikes! I meant "aviation." Though it sure sounds like "navigation." Gee, that changes the whole meaning of Marine 475 for me. Justin Weinberg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Neal Bauer Subject: THRAK: & cd rom Date: Mon, 8 May 95 10:17:24 MDT Listening to THRAK I'm struck by two things: 1. When did Lenny Kravitz join Crimson? 2. I'd really like to see THRAK released on CD ROM. I would find isolating the individual musician's contribution and changing the mix both interesting and educational. It's the first time I've thought cd rom appropriate - figures it would be a Crimson recording. Neal [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 12:57:40 -0700 From: stick at earthlink dot net (Stick Enterprises, Inc.) Subject: STICK: Elephant Talk Many thanks to Jonathan Block for his comments posted May l. I do have audio and video recordings of my music and improvs available in solo and various duos, and also some very interesting CDs featuring other Stick artists. Anyone interested in a listing of recorded products featuring Stick artists is welcome to send such a request to: - stick at earthlink dot net - As for the difficulties you experienced in playing, Jonathan, your instsrument must have been out of adjustment with the playing action too high. The touch is supposed to be light to very light with the hands in relaxed natural positions. My new instruments have all adjustable components and can quickly and easily be reset for straightness and uniformly low action as well as intonation of individual strings (it's convertible to any tuning sequence). Hope you get back into it. All the Best, Emmett [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:07:34 -0600 From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) Subject: MISC: Photos & Fripp in concert. > From: Chris March - The Bank of Bermuda > >From: johntrev at isdn dot net (John A. Trevethan) > >Also, does anyone know the policy concerning shooting photos and/or video > >at the THRAK shows? Every band seems to handle this differently, so I'd like > >to know in advance. > > >From the KC concerts that I went to ( Disipline @ The Venue, Beat @ > Guildford - both in the UK ) Bob Fripp did NOT like photos being taken and > he stopped playing mid song when several flashes went off. Things may have > changed. I would certainly not be stupid enough to try a flash photo. Small chance it would turn out, with the kind of distances involved in a concert hall! And it the idiots who try these shots who ruin it for the rest of us. I plan to use fast film and a zoom lens, no flash. If the hall security allowed me in with my camera bag, no one on stage would be disturbed by my photo-taking. So the question is, will King Crimson give explicit instructions at each venue stating that no cameras will be allowed? -- -paul pmartz at es dot com Evans & Sutherland "Be bright! Feel right! Take Eno!" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Maclennan Subject: MISC: KC tour merchandise Date: 09 May 1995 11:26:37 +1300 To whom it may concern: Any chance of making the KC tour merchandise (t-shirts, tour booklet) available by mail order (e.g. through Posible Productions) for the benefit of us poor suckers at the other end of the planet? -- David Maclennan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 16:38:40 -0600 From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) Subject: THRAK: without drums? From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) > John R. Nash wrote: > >Final comment: can anyone imagine this project without Bruford? > > Yes - and without Mr Mr Mastelotto too. Actually 13 mins of "THRAK" is > totally drum-free (22 per cent of the totaltime). [...] A good point. I'll go even further and say the parts of THRAK I like best are the parts where Bruford is absent or at least toned down. Alot of his contribution to THRAK just sounds like noise to me, and while I like noise in general, Bruford's seems to be inappropriately placed alot of the time. There seems to be little compositional value. I believe each note should have a place and a purpose and Bruford's drumming on THRAK lacks both too often. I feel bad for saying this. I like Bruford. I'm a drummer myself. A lot of what he did with Crimson in the 80s is completely inspirational to me. But it's almost as if, now that he has Mastelotto as a base, he's gone completely off the deep end. Certainly I understand if this "two drummer" business is a new thing to him, and so alot of his drumming on THRAK could be considered "experimental". Other opinions? I'm sure alot of people feel I'm way off base with these comments... -- -paul pmartz at es dot com Evans & Sutherland "Be bright! Feel right! Take Eno!" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:26:43 -0600 From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) Subject: THRAK: trivialities From: Watcher Of The Skies (John P Mohan) > 4. On VROOOM, am I correct in assuming the trios are arranged as such: > > Left speaker: Robert, Bill, Trey > Right speaker: Adrian, Pat, Tony I don't know about the other guys, but I could swear that's Bruford in the right speaker. Is my CD hooked up to my amp wrong? Cause it sounds the same in the tape copy I made. Mastelotto comes out with a solid beat on the left, and Bruford does his typical off-rhythm goofing around on the right... paul [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:17:54 -0600 From: pmartz at ES dot COM (Paul Martz) Subject: THRAK/QUERY: BB in Modern Drummer From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) > Bill Bruford notates 4 double drumming examples from Thrak for us in the > May issue of "Modern Drummer". He challenges drummers to identify their > locations in specific tracks. I'm no drummer, but I think the last example > with the master groove in 3/4 while the other drummer (=BB) improvises in > 7/8 or 5/8 might be the title track. The correct answers might be of > interest to this list. Anyone? Sounds more like you're describing B'Boom to me. Mastelotto plays in 3 on that. Haven't listened close enough to hear whet Bruford is doing. The title track, THRAK, switches time signatures in a few places, but is overall in 5, and sounds like another drummer might be playing in 10 in a few places. -paul [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 20:53:56 EDT From: CTYM80A at prodigy dot com (MR BRIAN K PRESTON) Subject: MISC: )-( )-( )-( )-( Hello all ETers. Well, of course I love Thrak. Some tunes have a little less driving edge than Vrooom. But stll so much there to absorb. Nice job Tony too (yes, a bass player). I cant wait ti hear your new traveling diary album. Now for why I am writing. Can anyone recommend a good medium priced hotel to stay at in San Francisco? I'm flying from North Carolina to SF for the Warfield shows. I have encountered seveeral quite expensive ones: Donatello and Drake. Please indicate any alternatives, thanks!! Eme please. (Just noticed the voices counting at the end of Vrooom.) Dig 'em, dem bones, dem bones. )-( BKP i n N C )-( snap crash ... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Maclennan Subject: MISC: Definitive Editions - the debate continues Date: 09 May 1995 14:55:24 +1300 If I may be permitted to add my two cent's worth to the discussion on Definitive Edition vs original editions, the other day in a second hand store I picked up a Japanese Def. Ed. of "Islands", and it sounds markedly different from the UK one I have (also supposedly a Def. Ed., but it didn't sound noticeably different from the non-D.E. one....). The sound on the Japanese disc is much fuller and sharper than before (much as I like "Islands" I've always found it a bit thin-sounding and under-produced). You can really hear the individual elements of each track as never before. In fact, it almost sounds like it's been remixed a bit as well, though I've yet to do a close comparison. Sleeve is as per the UK version, with the addition of an extra booklet in Japanese with liner notes and lyrics, plus a folded reproduction of the family tree in the "Frame By Frame" box. -- David Maclennan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 09 May 95 00:18:14 EDT From: "John R. Palmer" <73670 dot 2065 at compuserve dot com> Subject: MISC: '79 Frippertronics, Chicago In ET 185, G.A. Radvansky cites a June 18 1979 Chicago show as part of the Frippertronics tour. If that show is the same one my friends and I attended in a music store on the north side, I am amazed that anyone could have recorded anything there. The place was so small, intimate. We were seated on the floor not 9 feet from Mr Fripp as he spoke to us, answered some questions, and played guitar with his pair of revok recorders. Mr Fripp made a point at that time to voice opposition to anyone "holding both sleeve-clad arms out through the show" (or words to that effect anyway - that was 16 years ago), the point being "no bootlegging". I would be interested to know how anyone could have managed to surreptitiously record anything in that setting. After the show, Mr Fripp allowed several questions, and then signed autographs on any of his work (I got one on the liner notes to tYPGtKC). My friend had drawn quite a good likeness reproduction of the portrait from Red - Mr Fripp made a word balloon coming from the image of his own head with the word "Boo!". As for other music? Check out the band "Live" sometime. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "WILLIAM HURLEY MCAVENEY" Organization: TJHSST Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:55:52 EST Subject: THRAK: Yet again, THRAK... and then, lyricists I just got THRAK yesterday... and had absolutely no trouble opening it... so I've got no idea what happened to the rest of you. Anyway, I dropped it into my car CD player on the way home from the record store and my thought was 'Crimson is back'. I really was disappointed with the 80s incarnation of crimson. I've always been a fan of 70s crimson... especially Wetton-Bruford-etc-era crimson. This album was sort of a return of sorts... it took what was good about 80s crimson, and combined it with the jazzy sensibility and complexity of 70s crimson... the result was great. As for lyricists... Richard W. Palmer-James was the best one crimson has had to date. I'd say that Pete Sinfield takes a close second, and Belew dead last. I like the guy's guitar work and singing (especially on THRAK... at varying times he sounds like Bono or John Lennon, but with a distinctly Belew style), but his lyrics are often trite at best. Did John Wetton write the lyrics for 'One More Red Nightmare'? The only people credited with that song on the RED album cover are him and Fripp. Palmer-James is conspicuosly absent and I doubt that Fripp took a stab at lyrics... ====================================================================== \/\/ | |_ |_ /\/\c "Locked Him in His golden cage..." -Jethro Tull [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:48:26 +0200 From: vit0202 at comune dot bologna dot it (Aldo Brucale) Subject: MUSIC: VROOOM tab VROOOM (standard tuning) Intro: -|-12-11----11--8----------------------------------------|- -|--------9----------12-11----11--8----------------------|- -|----------------10--------8----------11-10----10--7----|- -|----------------------------------10--------8----------|- -|----------------------------------------------------10-|- -|-------------------------------------------------------|- ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ E F B C F# G D# <- Bass The main theme is played in major thirds you can play it on the 3rd & 4th strings. 1st Arpeggio: (I only wrote the fingerings for the chords to be arpeggiated - listen to the record for the timing.) E-|--9-|-10-|-11-|-10-|--9-|-10-|-11-|-12-|- B-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|- G-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|- D-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|-13-|-13-|-13-|-13-|-15-|-15-|-16-|-16-|-16-|-18-|-18-|-19-|- B-|-15-|-17-|-17-|-17-|-17-|-18-|-20-|-20-|-20-|-20-|-20-|-20-|- G-|-12-|-12-|-15-|-13-|-12-|-13-|-15-|-18-|-16-|-15-|-16-|-15-|- D-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- 2nd Arpeggio: E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- B-|--9-|-10-|-11-|-10-|--9-|-10-|-11-|-12-|- G-|-10-|-10-|-10-|-10-|-10-|-10-|-10-|-10-|- D-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|-11-|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- B-|-13-|-13-|-13-|-13-|-16-|-16-|-16-|-16-|- G-|-14-|-16-|-16-|-16-|-19-|-19-|-19-|-19-|- D-|-12-|-12-|-15-|-14-|-17-|-16-|-16-|-15-|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|-14-|-14-|-14-|-14-|-16-|-17-|----|----|- B-|-16-|-18-|-18-|-18-|-18-|-21-|----|----|- G-|-13-|-13-|-16-|-14-|-13-|-16-|----|----|- D-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|-17-|-17-|-17-|-17-|-19-|-19-|-20-|----|- B-|-21-|-21-|-21-|-21-|-21-|-21-|-21-|----|- G-|-16-|-19-|-18-|-17-|-16-|-17-|-16-|----|- D-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- A-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|- E-|-------20-|-18-17----17-14----------------------------------------|- B-|----21----|-------15----------18-17----17-14----------------------|- G-|-16-------|----------------16-------14----------17-16----16-13----|- E-|----------|----------------------------------16-------14----------|- E-|----------|----------------------------------------------------16-|- E-|----------|-------------------------------------------------------|- E-|--8--7-----7--4----------------------------------------|- B-|--------5-----------8--7-----7--4-----7--6-------------|- G-|-----------------6--------4--------6-----------6--3----|- D-|--------------------------------------------4----------|- A-|-----------------------------------------------------6-|- E-|-------------------------------------------------------|- E-|-10--9-----7--6----------------------------------------|- B-|--------7----------10--9-----9--6----------------------|- G-|-----------------8--------6-----------9--8-----8--5----|- D-|-----------------------------------8--------6----------|- A-|-----------------------------------------------------8-|- E-|-------------------------------------------------------|- ..and then Marine 475 begins. -- ===Aldo Brucale=================vit0202 at iperbole dot bologna dot it=== [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 9 May 95 12:21:48 BST From: Tim Meadowcroft Organization: i2 Limited, Cambridge, UK Subject: MISC: re:Elephant Talk #187 Hi all, Some points and observations to get off my chest... 1. re: "Sartori in Tangier", and various references to it. Pardon me for being pedantic, but should this be Satori (no "r") meaning "sudden enlightenment". The closest meaning I can find for "Sartori" is "pertaining to clothing" (eg sartorial elegance). Is this a genuine but repeated typo, or an example of RF humour (and I've missed the joke) ? 2.> More than one person has remarked on the jewel box being defective. I > concur: obviously this is a design flaw. The CD jewel box has always been the worst thing about CDs. I don't know what design wiz thought of a plastic case that won't stand up, has to be opened with the right hand on the side and the left on the top and bottom (ie there's a trick hand position, which amazingly many people still don't know), that successfully tears 3 sides of the cover notes / booklet even without you taking them out and holds the CD with crappy little guaranteed-to-break tabs. When I used to master CDs for work, the jewel boxes cost half as much as the actual CD, and that was if you received them in bulk and put the CDs in them yourself. Jewel boxes suck. 3.> i remember an eno interview were he said (paraphrased) that he had been > 'listening' to joni mitchell's "blue" album for about five years and hadn't > got around to the lyrics. > my method: do not 'listen' for at least three times. go about doing > whatever comes naturally. if there is 'something' in the music for you, it > will find you. In his recent Wired interview, Brian Eno also says that he went out into the street and made a recording of some random traffic noise. He then listened to it a number of times, as background, and sure enough he soon found music in it when it had seeped into his head enough (yeah, here comes the bit where that car door slams and that woman talking). A friend of mine used to make a similar point about TV adverts (ever noticed how many people sing along with adverts). (leads onto...) 4.> P.S. My nomination for the coolest lyric on _THRAK_ : "Navigation" > (from Marine 475). Good to see someone else likes this track, it's one of my favourites off the album (but is it traffic noise, or at least the lyrics) but everyone else seems to skip it. Is it really a "Speak'n'Spell" ? (leads onto...) 5.re: debate over lyrics, AB vs. PS etc. To me a great lyric is one where the sound and beat of the words fits. The sound encompasses the meaning of the words, but also the tone of delivery, the context it conjures up, etc. As such, many of AB's lyrics excel. The rhythm and variety of Elephant Talk, the frantic pace of Neurotica, the insanity of Indiscipline, and the fear and tension of Thela Hun Ginjeet all spring to mind (as well as the harsh 21st-CSM, the mellow Starless, and the great whoop "YEAH" part way through Fracture: my favourite KC lyric). The "ballads", well, I think some of them fit (two hands, matte kudusai), but some of them don't. The lyrics are often seen as an excuse for a poor song, but typically I find that if I don't like the lyrics, it's because I don't like the song as a whole. If BB can do "The Talking Drum", then I'd think of most KC lyrics as being "The Drumming Voice". Think of it as another instrument, usually percussion. The meaning is so much more than what the lyrics read as by themself: the meaning is the whole song, all the instruments together. I think Brian Eno and R.E.M. amongst others illustrate this point. What do the lyrics to Marine 475 mean ? Who knows, but they sound great. All the best... see some of you in the Albert Hall Tim // tjm at i2 dot co dot uk // All the clouds turn to words // All the words float in sequence // No one knows what they mean // Everyone just ignores them // (Eno + Fripp - SkySaw) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Steven M. Hill" Subject: MISC: Re: Elephant Talk #187 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 23:44:39 +0200 (BST) Is the "Dinosaur" CD single available in the UK ? Steve (To The .) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Maclennan Subject: MISC: Vampiric relationship? Date: 10 May 1995 11:10:19 +1300 Some comments on Mark Clements' posting in ET187: It's true that the membership of KC is the band's own business, and I'm sure that this particular grouping of musicians is working together because they want to. But to say that KC do not make music for us, i.e. the people who pay good money for their records and (if you're lucky enough to live in USA/Europe!) to see them in concert strikes me as a bizarre comment. At the end of the day KC must make music that they are happy with themselves. However, once that music is placed in a public forum, be it a CD or a concert, then they must be prepared to accept that other people's opinions may differ from their own. Further, other people's opinions are valid, especially those with a long-standing and deep knowledge of the band's music. In any case, the views of any musician or group of musicians on their own music are naturally somewhat biased. Put another way, music cannot exist in a vacuum. "Don't dislike it because of the musicians, because they are irrelevant," says Mark. Eh??? Since when have musicians been irrelevant in the creation of music? I've been listening to KC for 25 years now, over half my life (I'm 41) and I think I know a good KC when I hear one. And there have been many occasions when KC's music has leaned over and taken me into its confidence, e.g. the first time I heard "Court" or "Lark's Tongues". On a related note, I see from the gig reviews that Robert has been lurking in the shadows rather than have any spotlight on him. While I admire what I presume is his wish to take the emphasis off himself and give the rest of the group a fair go, I can't help thinking it's a bit churlish. If I'm ever lucky enough to see KC I want to hear and see ALL of them. Whether he likes it or not, Fripp has a responsibility to the people who pay money to attend the group's concerts. He takes his music seriously and I admire him for that, but maybe he should lighten up a little in some other areas? Sorry about the lengthy post, but I feel Mark raised some important issues that need to be addressed. -- David Maclennan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 17:02:23 -0700 From: JDEhm at eworld dot com Subject: MISC: Beatles/THRAK/Belew Salutations, First off, I respect all ET'ers opinions has we are definitely a tribe unto itself; but I really get annoyed at the fact that The Beatles are always the cornerstone of comparison with other bands. The Beatles have their place in music history for their sometimes pioneering ways, but I've always felt that they also had the luck of being at the right place at the right time. The sixties was a turning point in *popular music* and The Beatles were privy to the openess of the times and also had the right management and chemistry to endear themselves to the mass population. The Beatles are The Beatles and Everyone Else is Everyone Else. It is true that Belew has allowed himself to sound Lennonesque on _Thrak_, due mainly to whatever effects/reverb/what have you, he has put on his vocal tracks. This is bad judgement on his/Crimson's part; he should have let himself sound the way he did on the last great Crimson album _Discipline_. The track _Dinosaur_ for example is his voice at it's most natural/best! Anyways, I have heard _Thrak_ about three times now and think it is Crimson at one of it's best moments in it's recorded history. A touch of the early seventies sound, a bit from the early eighties and a nineties line up which itself produces it's own unique sound. Bravo! As for Belews lyrics, they reflect his personal style and that of the music that influenced him as he was becoming what he is today. Pete Sinfield was of a different era where esoteric/spacey lyrics were the norm. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Now I know why Eno tried to stay away from having lyrics that mean anything; people try to dissect and analyze them (which can be fun) but sometimes miss the point that the voice, too, is an instrument and should be regarded for the sound it makes, not neccessarily for what is being said. 'Enuff said, see all you "Toronto Tontos" at Massey Hall. Love and laughter, JD Ehm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:24:22 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James) Subject: THRAK: For and against the new sound Thanks to Mark Clements for some of the best comments yet on liking or disliking Thrak (and he's a fan of Evelyn, a Modified Dog, too :). The other comments I thought most well summed up the situation were from someone whose name eludes me, suggesting (correctly IMHO) that great art by its nature provokes opposing reactions, and that different people will be attracted to different features of it. Crimson is. Crimson creates music. Whether we dislike it or like it is irrelevant to the creation process, and is not - or at least should not be - related to the individuals in the band. Lets face it, any band is a symbiotic creature, perhaps this line up of Crimson more so that most other bands. Belew is as much part of the group as Fripp or Gunn or any of the others, and I seriously doubt that the 'commercial', 'Beatlesque', (fill in your own adjective), nature of several of the songs on Thrak is due to his influence alone. No one person in this group has the clout to drag the other five along in any particular direction. Lets face it, as I've already pointed out, much of the Beatlesque sound is brought about through the bass/stick lines (just listen to the intro to Walking on Air, f'rinstance, or that quiet break in VROOOM). Similarly, Fripp's stepping back into the milieu, rather than being a 'guitar hero', is not his act alone, but rather is a group decision. Crimso might not be what you want them to be, but they are what they want them to be, which is, in the long run more important. But even if you are not impressed by any one facet of the new Crimso sound, it is very likely that another aspect of it will be just down your alley. KC, and Thrak, is a multitentacled beast, and one tentacle or another is just about bound to grab you! James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz / steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:30:22 -0700 From: John Relph Subject: THRAK: People The suggestion was made to listen to The Beatles' "Don't Let Me Down" followed by KC's "Walking on Air". I suggest listening to KC's "People" followed by The Beatles' "She's So Heavy". And KC means King Crimson, not KC and the Sunshine Band. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:49:52 EDT From: CTYM80A at prodigy dot com (MR BRIAN K PRESTON) Subject: MISC: Nice job Tony! Hello gain all Crimheads. To Tony Levin:(if you have had time to get on line while you are on the road... starting very soon I believe!)...Congratulations on a front cover and nice review in Bass Player Magazine! I read every issue and have been hoping for a TL interview there.Just want to say, as a fellow bass player in prog music, I do really enjoy the new Crimson disc and your bass parts, of course! Great tones and compositions! I wiil see ya'll two nights in San Francisco in June...cant wait! I last saw the King in 1983 in Pavillion in Maryland, Beat tour. And with Peter there also. Have a great tour!!! Have fun! See you in a few weeks! Brian K. Preston...fretless:) in NC [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:42:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Theodore Gregory Hill Jr." Subject: MISC: early light shows... To take a break from "Thrak", I'd like to know if anyone knows what early Crimson light shows were like. Pete Sinfield supposedly put on amazing lights from 69-71, what were these like? Anyone here lucky enough to go? Ted [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 21:46:29 -0400 From: Rob Baker Subject: MISC: THRAKKIN' Just wanted to thank everyone who wrote a negative review of THRAK so I didn't get my hopes up. This made listening to it for the first time and every time since all the better. THRAK is the best Crimson since "Discipline" without a doubt - thanks to R. Fripp for playing the mellotron once again; B'Boom is one of the greatest rhythm tracks I've ever enjoyed; Adrian Belew does a great John Lennon; overall THRAK is interesting, intense, well-crafted, and a godsend after all these years. For those who don't have Tony Levin's "World Diary", BOTH Bill Bruford and Jerry Marotta appear in starring percussive roles. What was that argument all about anyway? They're both relevant percussionists. I hope you out there who didn't care for "THRAK" care for the upcoming live cd even less. If the live version of "Elephant Talk" on the "Dinosaur" cd single is any indication, that cd will also be a "godsend". Turn it up! My drummer needs a ticket for Washington DC Crimson show next month. Any possibilities pleAse contact me at robot at digex dot net Thanks, Robert [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:03:20 GMT From: mike at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: MISC : Lineup Complaints and Vampires >From Mark Clements (mpc at mbsmm dot com) > As I'm sure everyone is aware, King Crimson does not make music for us. > They make music for the only reward a musician receives: "the privilege > of standing in the presence of music when it leans over and takes us > into its confidence". Sorry Mark, but you're swallowing far too much of the pretentious nonsense Fripp has been spouting for the last twenty years or so. He makes music to earn a living, just like every other professional musician. A great musician he might be, but he's in it for the money. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:08:55 GMT From: mike at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: MISC: "Court" Sound Quality >From jh at cadre dot com (Joe Hartley) > My absolute favorite is a record shrouded in mystery: it's a Mobile > Fidelity Sound Labs (MFSL) half-speed master. If you're even a passing > audiophile, you've seen their stuff with the easily recognised half-inch > strip at the top with the words "original half-speed master". Ludicrous as this might sound, but I found the best ever pressing of this record was the UK Polydor release. Yes, that's right, Polydor; home of MOR and soft, wobbly records. Admittedly the sound deteriorated over the years, but the first six months or so were something of a revelation. Having only had the original 1969 pressing prior to this, I was amazed to hear the breadth of sound in 'Epitaph' hitherto unheard. If only I has the sense to make a really good recording of it when I first got it... The 'Definitive' CD was a definite let-down. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: MISC: Dos trios... Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 02:07:16 -0500 (CDT) I believe this has been said before but since I saw two people ask in the last ET here is the setup for the two trios as is stated by Tony Levin in the newest issue of Bass Player magazine. (great interview!) "that (Vrooom) was mixed with one trio on the far left and the other on the far right: with the balance knob you can choose either Robert, Trey, and Pat, or Adrian, Bill, and me(Levin). That tune is as far as we've gone with the"double trio" idea. If you're King Crimson you can't accomplish everything you set out to accomplish in one album. " New subject: Just thinking about all the comments on how KC has parts ofprevious songs on some of the Thrak songs. I believe it is the song "Monday Morn" that immediately pops into my head off of WoTP...the sudden chorus from "In the Court..." that pops into the background of this song is unmistakeable. ( I could be thinking of "Hand of Sceiron") The part is only fleeting but it makes me smile when I hear it. Also: To those questioning why "Cage" was left off of Thrak...I believe it was Levin who commented that they left off the songs from Vrooom that they believed they could not improve upon. Cage was perfect I guess. :) Brad " Dig me....but don't....bury me " [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Larry Melnick Subject: MISC: miscellany Date: Thu, 11 May 95 7:41:48 EDT i'm a new subscriber to elephant talk,so please bear with me. 1. whatever happened to jamie muir? 2. where can i send for the cd, album or tape of "i advance unmasked" with RF and Andy Summers (another outstanding guitarist). 3. i thought "the young persons guide to king crimson" was interesting. good ezine,great band. thanx, lm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:09:57 +0200 From: Finney Mark Subject: GIG (SPOLIER!): Review KC Concert. Berlin 950508 WARNING: if you are going to see KC soon I would NOT recommend reading this. You will have more fun being surprised! One of the pleasures of concerts is seeing the other weirdoes who like the same music as yourself. Berlin Crimheads are a grotty lot. I thought I d landed in a crowd for a Black Sabbath concert! Here the colour was black and the style Grunge for post-30 year old men; for the audience was 85 percent men. The Tempodrom is a large tent holding around 2000 for this sold-out show on VE day, Monday 8th May 1995. In the rest of Berlin celebrations and memorials were being held. At the KC concert it was definitely celebration. In another co-incidence the Tempodrom itself is scheduled to be removed to make way for the new German parliament house. I think it cool that the 2000 of us will remember this concert every time we see report from the new Reichstag. During the 90 minutes it took for the crowd to take their (unnumbered) seats the music of Soundscapes filled the tent. 30 minutes before the show it went over to music with electric piano, mellotron, bass, percussion. It certainly sounded like KC but much more open, mellow and reflective. I have all their albums and this was new. My 9th row centre seat was starting to look being worth travelling from Sweden for. The California Guitar Trio started off the show. By the time the last notes of the first song had faded everyone in the crowd was converted from their initial scepticism. The music ranged from Yamanashi Blues through Bluegrass, Spaghetti Western soundtracks and the best version of Bach's Toccata and Fugue since Sky ;-) The lighting however didn t change throughout the set. After a 15 minute pause KC took the stage.... They crunched straight into Vroom and without a break continued with Marine Coda with Tony using a bowed stick. The power was immediate although the volume not too impressive (I m sure I ve heard some tracks louder at home! The PA was unusually small). The musicians were arranged in two rows of 3 on the stage. Drummers left and right back with Gunn between them. Belew centre front, Levin right and RF hiding in the shadows left front. Fripp never appeared in a spot throughout the entire show. After the quieter tones of Frame by Frame they played a brilliant rendition of Dinosaur. Power to spare here and a BIG improvement on the CD. The mellotron was a sample triggered by Belew s guitar. One Time followed with some lighting spraying green ripples and spots over the crowd. (Generally the lighting was good, but nothing really special. It never distracted from the music). So far Bruford had been admirably restrained but Red blew that. A real show stopper , particularly for Bruford and Belew. Belew ran through virtually every trademark sound he owns on this one and Bruford grinned idiotically, having a great time. Then everyone left the stage bar Fripp who started a Soundscape like track. After a few minutes the drummers snuck back and slowly worked their way into the solo from B Boom. This then unsubtly segued into a wild version of Thrak. Belew even took an electric screwdriver to his pickups! Slow time again, this time with Matte Kudasai. The guitar sounds that remind me of sea-gulls were a bit heavy handed from Belew but his voice was in good form all night. This yielded to Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream in a version once again clearly better than the CD. People followed and this was, IMHO, the weakest track of the evening. Notably unfocused, sloppy playing. The pace picked-up again with Vroom Vroom. The programme (which was expensive but with a lengthy text by Fripp) mentioned that the bass section was originally written for the track Red, but not used. The programme also hints that Fripp is assembling Earthbound II for release 96. He is also considering releasing USA again, though he thinks GD is 4 times better! There was no Coda to Vroom Vroom. Instead there was a stick duet leading to a stupendous version of Elephant Talk. Belew completely in his element, joyous, possessed and focused. This mood continued with Indiscipline (clearly a favourite with Belew). The set finished there. 80 minutes was OK I thought. I mean KC don t do encores do they? Yes, they do now. Back they came with Heartbeat, then a second encore. Another Soundscape/drum noodle lead suddenly into ecstasy when Levin picked up the bass line from Talking Drum. Gunn carried the lead here in one of the few times you could really here him. Talking Drum built up and up but a little too soon for my taste they swerved off into Lark s Tongues in Aspic Pt II. Happy Happy Joy Joy!! My hair (what s left of it) stood on end with pleasure. Fripp s demon guitar growled through the Rite of Spring riffs like it was 1973. Phew! People were screaaming and howling and jumping up and down. And then it was over... But no, they came back yet again. A third encore. They calmed everyone down with Walking on Air from Thrak. Then it was really over. 107 minutes with KC. Best on the night: Red closely followed by Dinosaur. I haven t mentioned Fripp much here. Partly because he deliberately avoided being obvious. But it was clear the rest of the band deferred to him. They watched him more than any other (although Bill watched Pat most of the time). Many times at what first glance seemed to be Belew playing was in fact Fripp. All in all a great show and a memory for life. If you read this despite my warning I hope you enjoy the show anyway and if you can t make it then I hope this gives you some idea of what it was like. Mark Finney Sweden [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]