Elephant Talk #173 (as text)

17 March 1995

From: michaell at cs dot wisc dot edu (Michael Lee)
Subject: KC in Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:45:01 -0600 (CST)

I just saw an ad in one of the local papers that King Crimson tickets for the June 15th show at the Riverside Theater on Monday March 13th. No price information, but it's through ticketmaster.

If anyone needs ticketmaster numbers, I've got a list of them at

Michael G. P. Lee                              Department of Computer Sciences
michaell at coyote dot cs dot wisc dot edu                  University of Wisconsin - Madison

Date: 15 Mar 95 14:29:09 EST
From: Udo Dzierzanowski <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com>
Subject: Robert's online conference

KING CRIMSON CONFERENCE 23-MAR 8:00 EST - (New York Time), this is 1.00AM UK time

Join Robert Fripp, founding member from KING CRIMSON on-line in the CompuServe Convention Center March 23rd between 8-10pm Eastern time.

Robert will spend the evening with fans, fielding questions about the fascinating history of KING CRIMSON and its members, as well as discussing the exciting upcoming new Virgin Records release from KING CRIMSON entitled THRAK, the band's first new record in OVER 11 YEARS !!

25 lucky people drawn from participants in the on-line conference will win a copy of THRAK, due out in stores April 25th....

To attend the conference on the 23rd, GO CONVENTION.

Virgin Records is in the Recording Industry Forum (GO RECORD), the conference is in the Convention Centre (GO CONVENTION)


[ We hope to be able to run a transcript of this event in ET -- Toby ]

Date: 13 Mar 95 05:46:50 EST
From: Robert Fripp
Subject: KC biog
King Crimson 1995

King Crimson lives in different bodies at different times, and the
particular form which the group takes changes. When music appears which
only King Crimson can play then, sooner or later, King Crimson appears to
play the music.

The present incarnation, the Double Trio, is the fifth live ensemble since
the group's birthday on January 13th. 1969 in the basement of the Fulham
Palace Cafe, London. The conception of the present personnel was January
7th. 1994, and their birthday April 18th. 1994, both in Woodstock, New

Robert Fripp		Adrian Belew
Guitar			Guitar & voice

Trey Gunn		Tony Levin
Stick			Basses and Stick

Pat Mastelloto		Bill Bruford
Acoustic and Electronic Percussions

This King Crimson has been a long time in preparation and formation. Music
bearing an unmistakable Crimson accent has been flying by my ear since 1986
/ 87. At that time I was asked to write the music for the planned film of
William Gibson's "Neuromancer" and some of the music, at least, was
distinctly Crimsoid.  The film fell through before any of the ideas for the
group or music developed but it was clear there was music in the air
waiting for King Crimson to give it voice.

I took the personal decision to put King Crimson back into action during
the second half of 1990 but without a clear idea of how that might be. When
Adrian Belew visited me in England during the Summer of 1991, expressing
his commitment to the next stage of Crimsonising, the shape became more
defined and the intent clear. Tony Levin had also expressed his commitment
to the next stage of Crimson with the dry T.Lev aside that "I figure a a
three year break is fine, but seven years a bit TOO long". And that was
four years ago.

The picture of a Double Trio formation appeared in a flash while I was
driving past our village church towards Salisbury one afternoon in the
Autumn of 1992.  The double trio was not what I intended, expected, nor
wanted but I trusted (and trust) this point of seeing sufficiently to act
upon it. Sometimes it takes time for ideas to come into effect with the
risk that the available moment for good ideas may be lost.

The primary reason for the delay between 1991 and 1994 is the dispute and
litigation between myself and Messrs. SG Alder and MA Fenwick, the
principals of EG Management and formally EG Records and EG Music, who had
represented King Crimson and myself since 1969. The principals' financial
problems as Lloyd's Names and the collapse of their property company (which
went into voluntary liquidation in August 1992) were reflected by their
failure to pay outstanding royalties to artists on January 1st. 1991.

Secondary reasons for delay were Tony Levin's commitment to Peter Gabriel,
mine to David Sylvian, Adrian Belew's solo career and responsibilities as a
producer, and Bill Bruford's involvement with Yes and his continuing
management by EG (until April 18th. 1995). These all contributed to
delaying the return of Crimson to active duty.

The recording of VROOOM (May 1994) was set as a challenge, with the aim of
pulling together six busy musicians to write and rehearse a new and
available repertoire. The mini-album is the product of two weeks'
rehearsals, three weeks' work overall and is, in effect, the recording of
our first rehearsals together.  VROOOM was released independently in
November 1994 on DGM through Possible Productions in North America,
Pinnacle in the UK, Rough Trade in Germany and Benelux, COD Tuxedo in
Switzerland, France and Scandinavia, Virgin in Italy and Spain, Pony Canyon
in Japan and the Far East.

King Crimson rehearsed for a further two weeks (July 26 - August 6) and
flew to Argentina on September 22nd. for one week of rehearsals and two
weeks of live work, to play-in both the band and new material. The Double
Trio presented King Crimson's formal return to active duty on Saturday
1st. October, 1994 at the Prix d'Ami disco, Buenos Aires. The dress
rehearsal the evening before was a poorly kept secret: I suggested to the
promoter that he invite his friends to come and listen.

The first full studio album since 1984 - THRAK - was recorded at Peter
Gabriel's Real World Studios between October 24th. - November 19th., and
November 28th. - December 4th. 1994. Virgin release it in April 1995
throughout Europe and North America.

A world concert tour begins in Europe at the beginning of May 1995 and
continues throughout the rest of the year.
				     King Crimson - THRAK

56'39" of songs about love, dying, redemption and mature guys that get

Recorded and mixed in six weeks at Real World Recording Studios, Box, UK,
September 24th. - November 19th., November 28th. - December 4th. 1994.

Release April 1995 on DGM through Virgin in North America and Europe, Pony
Canyon in Japan and the Far East.


VROOOM An inevitable and remorseless forward movement which carries
everything before it.


	1. The same, but here it comes again.

	2. A King Crimson instrumental (1994) with a middle section
	   originally written, but not used, for "Red" (1974).


	1. A sudden and precisely directed impact moving from intention and
	   commitment, in service of an aim.

	2. The sound of 117 guitars almost striking the same chord

Marine 475 (Coda to VROOOM)

	1. An example of remorseless and unforgiving inevitability where
	   one is called to honour one's liability without limitation.

	2. A Lloyd's insurance syndicate which suffered catastrophic losses
	   for 1989, 1990 and 1991 resulting from Hurricane Hugo, Exxon Valdez and
	   Phillips Petroleum. Several Names involved were from the music industry -
	   even honest, God-fearing family men and good guys that you could trust, who
	   had nothing to hide and who were renowned for their probity and sound
	  business practices.

King Crimson

	1. "The man with an aim". From an Anglicised form of the Arabic
	   phrase "B'il Sabab" ("Beelzebub").

	2. Term coined by Peter Sinfield in 1969.


"Frame By Frame", a 4 x CD Box Set released on DGM through Virgin in
November 1991 includes a Scrapbook with detailed information and commentary
on Crimson 1969-84.

"The Great Deceiver" (December 1992) is also a 4 x CD set of live
recordings from 1973/4 in Europe and America. This also includes a

"Robert Fripp: From King Crimson To Guitar Craft" (Faber) is a book which I
asked Eric not to write. It has one very good chapter (on the Guitar Craft
course which Eric attended) and several chapters on King Crimson.

Other Discipline Global Mobile releases:

King Crimson  - VROOOM (1994)
Trey Gunn - One Thousand Years  (1994)
The Robert Fripp String Quintet - The Bridge Between (1994)
The California Guitar Trio - Yamanashi Blues (1994)
The California Guitar Trio - Invitation (1995)
Robert Fripp - 1999: Soundscapes Live In Argentina (1995)


Adrian Belew - The Acoustic Adrian Belew (Japan & Europe 1995)

King Crimson Official Bootleg - Indiscipline: Live In Argentina (1995)

Robert Fripp - 1995: Soundscapes Live In California (1995)
	Volume One: Radiophonics
	Volume Two:  A Blessing Of Tears:
	Volume Three: Soundbites

Robert Fripp & The League of Crafty Guitarists - Intergalactic Boogie
Express: Live In Europe (1995)

Mail Order, Merchandising & Enquiries:

					Discipline Global Mobile,
					PO Box 1533,
					Wiltshire, SP5 5ER;
					E-mail: 73064,1470 at compuserve dot com
					(44)1722 781042:	fax.
					(44)1722 780165:	fax.

	`				Possible Productions (California)
					c/o Mark Perry,
					351, Magnolia Avenue,
			  		LONG BEACH,
					California 90802;
					310-491 1945: fax.


					Richard Chadwick,
					Opium (Arts) Ltd.,
					49, Portland Road,
					LONDON, W11 4LJ;
					(44)171 - 229 5080: tel.
					(44)171 - 229 4841: fax.

					Catharina Masters,
					Catalyst / Opium (Arts),
					PO Box 17816,
					CA 90209-3816;
					310-271 7690: tel.
					310-271 7066: fax.

From: espel at clipper dot ens dot fr (Roger Espel Llima)
Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #172
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 21:23:59 MET
> Re; Henry Cow. Any of you old aging prog-rockers from the 70's remember
> a band called "Henry Cow" ?

This is enough to get me out of lurking mode ;)

I'm a young progger, which means I was about 3 when Henry Cow were putting some of their albums out... and I've discovered them recently and have been looking at related bands like the Art Bears, and News from Babel. In a few words, they're *great*!! Incredible avant-garde music which draws from 20-century classical as well as from prog and from improvised jazz. The main architects behind this music are Chris Cutler (drummer) and Fred Frith (who plays everything, from violas and guitars to pianos and keys), but Henry Cow (and its spinoffs) wouldn't be the same without Dagmar "hate her or love her" Krause's voice.

I don't know if there is any direct connection between these bands and King Crimson and/or Robert Fripp, and I don't see major similarities in the style of music, other than the fact that both are very innovative, original, and played by excellent musicians. I'd love to know if there is any connection in particular between RF and Fred Frith; the results could be amazing.

The albums I'd particularily recommend are Henry Cow's _In_Praise_of_ _Learning_, _Western_Culture_, and the Art Bears' _The_World_as_it_is_ _today_ and _Winter_Songs_. These two have been re-released on the same CD recently by Cuneiform. News from Babel also had two albums reissued on a CD, but I think the Art Bears or Henry Cow would be a better introduction.

Roger Espel Llima              \        I'm sitting in the fireplace
45, rue d'Ulm                   \       burning up my time
75005 Paris France               \      (King Crimson, VROOOM)
email: roger dot espel dot llima at ens dot fr   \

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:04:28 +1000
From: geoff at erin dot gov dot au (Geoff Dunn)
Subject: Silly Debate - Bruford v Marotta

Hello fellow Crimheads,

While I do not agree entirely with Andrea's assessment of Marotta's talents - I *DO* agree with her sentiments regarding Nadav N. Caine's (ET 170) 'replacement' ideas. How can someone (Nadav N. Caine) even think this? The only common ground between Bruford and Marotta would appear to be the fact that they both play drums. To me, Mr Bruford is a percussive icon whereas Mr Marotta is, well, a good drummer but simply not in the same league. I don't think Marotta is a 'weak' drummer, but when compared with Bruford (if possible), there's no real passion, experimentation or exuberance - all of which are traits that I admire in BB's playing.

While I'm here, I may as well get my 2 cents worth in. I see lots of correspondnece on ET lamenting that KC aren't touring this or that US city - at least KC are coming to your continent! I'd like to ask Mr Fripp why KC have never come to Australia. Is Australia that much more of an effort than lugging all your gear to Japan or across the Atlantic? Is it the infrastructure, potential crowds or physical isolation that renders us dependent upon the recorded KC? It would appear unlikely that we will have the aural pleasure of ever seeing them perform live in this country.

Am looking forward to THRAK - I'd like to see how the car performs out of the garage...



Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:09:25 -0600
From: Paul Olaris <polaris at Starbase dot NeoSoft dot COM>
Subject: Houston would be a wonderful place for King Crimson to play.

I, too, like another recent poster, am a poor college student and while I can afford to purchase (over time) the individual CDs and the Boxed Sets, I don't believe I can afford travel to Washington DC or Denver to see this exquisite group of musicians perform. May all of these pleadings for a tour stop addition in Texas (Houston? Austin? Dallas?) be heard! Please!!!

!<-$*|%$*$@==>!##%$*!@<==#@=!&?& Never need to worry with a tin of   $
&>$&!<=@+!%>+>$%$!**@?%%$@<?&#+& 'Hurri Curri': "Poisoned            @
# polaris at picard dot tamu dot edu      < especially for you!"                #
@ polaris at starbase dot neosoft dot com $           --Peter Sinfield          -

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:19:21 -0600
From: eclark at mail dot utexas dot edu (Industry)
Subject: King Crimson Tour
>From: frankb at hal dot com (Frank Bieser)
>Subject: King Crimson Tour
>I understand KC has no Texas dates in their new tour.  I don't understand
>this oversite.  There are many KC fans in Texas and would provide a good
>draw for any and all shows they might consider in our fine state.  Please
>reconsider this lack of venue.

I second this. I was very dissapointed when I heard that KC was not coming anywhere near Texas. This seems like one of the few chances I'll have to see King Crimson live, but the nearest they are coming to me is Denver Colorado. I really like KC, but not enough to drive for three days to see them. -Erick

And when the Ringmaster
	Calls our names
We'll be the first ones to go...
	to sleep
Stealing all our dreams, Sell them back to you

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 20:31:08 -0800
From: kbaird at cs dot man dot ac dot uk (Kevin Baird)
Subject: Tour Complaints + GD

I understand that those of us who live in the South Pacific and Southeastern USA are upset about the lack of Crimson dates. And I know that some who make those decisions may be looking in on this list... But it does seem to be taking up about a third of the list. Maybe those criticisms could still be there, but be shorter? I'm not trying to offend anyone...

About the Great Deceiver - It's remarkable. I searched for it for 3 months and feel that it was well worth it. Easily one of my favorite albums ever. Someone had asked if it was a good buy - without question.

Calarts Box RL-09    | kbaird at music dot calarts dot edu
24700 McBean Parkway | ph: 805.254.1350
Valencia, CA 91355   | http://music.calarts.edu/~kbaird

"The rights you have are the rights given you by this Committee.
We will determine what rights you have and what rights you have not got."
 -- J. Parnell Thomas of the HUAC

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:42:57 -0500
From: Mike McNally <mcnally at eecs dot umich dot edu>
Subject: Lizard vs. Islands (Lizard!!)

Stephen Arthur writes:

hello all, i just finished my crimson collection, and i would say that islands is way better than lizard. why don't people rag on lizard? i am i listening to it with a bent ear or is it that non-bruford yes guy?

Lizard is not exactly the most accesible King Crimson album. It took me a while to get to like it but ever since it caught on it's been one of my favorites. I love every track except the somewhat bland, take-it- or-leave-it "Lady of the Dancing Water". I know many people rank it at or near the bottom of their lists but "Lizard" is my favorite early Crimson albums and jockeys with "Red" and "Beat" for personal KC favorite.

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:50:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "Charles E. Hoskins - Propst" <charlesh at psy dot psych dot nova dot edu>
Subject: Whining Texans

I can't believe all these whining Texans complaining about tour dates. Try being exiled in south Florida and then you'll be grateful for the scraps you get. The only art rock down here is graffiti on highway overpasses.


Eric Hoskins-Propst         | "Call the world if you Please `The vale of
charlesh at psy dot psych dot nova dot edu |  Soul-making' Then you will find out the use
Deerfield Beach, FL         |  of the world."   - John Keats

From: Andre_Park at mail dot magic dot ca
Organization: Magic
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:53:39 EST
Subject: Absent Lovers Bootleg
Hi Toby and fellow KC fans.  I'm writing on behalf of my friend (the

Date: March 10, 1995.
From: Greg James
Subject: Absent Lovers Bootleg
KC = King Crimson
RF = Robert Fripp (guitar, brain)
AB = Adrian Belew (guitar, noise, voice)
BB = Bill Bruford (drumming)
TL = Tony Levin (stick, bass, cool)
FBF = "Frame by Frame - The Essential King Crimson" (4 CD's)
3 = Three of Perfect Pair (1984) last album by KC.

Somebody in ET#169 needed info about my B.D. present received in 1989.

SOUND: A bit flat, sounds like it was taken from the mixing  board but
still the best of my KC Bootlegs.

COVER: 4 candid photos of band members from "road photos" by TL, Plus KC
material from 1986 Interview with RF (in guitar player magazine).

DATE: July 1984, Montreal i.e.  Final 2 gigs of 1980's KC.

Side A:
1) RED: Awesooome! Takes like this subsitantiate RF's claim that this
incarnation of KC could "shred wallpaper at 3 miles".  Renders 1974 version
happy and sing-songy by comparison.

2) MATTE KUDASAI: Great seagulls by AB.  Similar to version on "The Noise".

3) 3 OF A PERFECT PAIR:  AB solo highlight, but can't compare to when I saw
AB & Bears do it in Toronto 1988 or 1989.  His solo  that night still looms
large in my CSC.  The energy that night was incredible.

4) DRUM SOLO, INDISCIPLINE:  Inferior to FBF Box version but AB makes nosie
similar to ghost-gobbling sound from pacman video game. Hilarious.

5) SARTORI In TANGIER:  This menacing version appears in FBF Box,
commentary as per "Red".

Side B:

1) FRAME BY FRAME: Shorter than original and my god, how can he do that?
RF's lines are faster & more complex (if such is possible).  This is the
1st KC tune I ever heard (in 1985, never got to see them) and it still
amazes me at how together this band sounds on discipline.  Through the
videos & bootlegs I tremble at the thought of seeing them 3 nights in a row
this May 26-28.

2) MAN WITH AN OPEN HEART: Cute bell sounds by BB, but it's still a lousy

3) SLEEPLESS: WOW.  Faster than versions on 3, FBF or Dance mix (later is
great in its own right).  TL & BB are inspired. Drumstick bass by TL is

4) HEARTBEAT: Very nice, but "One Time" makes this tune redundant.

5) ELEPHANT TALK: If you haven't heard it live, then it's only talk you've
been hearing. RF goes into the next world with his improv on the main
theme.  The wall of noise slashing chords are to die for.

I'm sure that material of this quality (& better, I hope) will appear in the next KC Box. I'm chomping at the bit to get my hands on it, on concert tickets and on THRAK. Thanks for reading my 1st contribution, which was an aim in itself.

Toronto, Canada.

From: C. Mortensen <morc at hpslz15 dot cern dot ch>
Subject: Ticket availability
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 9:04:24 MET

It is now three weeks ago I bought my KC ticket to the concert in Zurich. The price was, by the way, 38 CHF (~30 US$). I think about also going to one of the concerts in Germany, but I don't know if the tickets there are available yet.

Claus Mortensen

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:04:58 -0800
From: edumark at ix dot netcom dot com (chris hoard)
Subject: Elephant Squak

Cheers all --

I dig Toby's great job on the WWW page--especially that he went for the ONLY appropriate graphic. Now if I had a moment, I'd figure out how to download the thing and get it to pop up in my office on my screen saver... Better yet, have that disturbed Crimson visage screaming silently from all the VGA monitors about the LAN around the mega-conglomerate which employs this ET reader.

Then by new year's eve, 1999, with all the multi-media speakers in place, I'll set-off a little softbot and blast "Schizoid Man" from all the terminals. This summer of course, it'll be something off Thrak (or "whatever").

I'm curious if there are any plans to expand the WWW page, along the lines of the Holdsworth WWW page to include a library of rare/classic photos of the band, and related visuals... I suppose like most of us, our esteemed moderator has to work for a living too...

So far if the year continues as it does, the new KC may be the first concert I attend in '95. Btw, there seems to be a good resurgence of progressive "jazz" happening in the mid-90s. Some recommended discs for the list to ponder:

Btw, how is the live 80s stuff on Frame by Frame? I'm sure the book is worth the price of admission...

--Chris Hoard

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 08:57:35 +0000
From: Rupert Loydell <RML at madbear dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: live crimson cd

I recently bought a double live cd by KC called Avenida Corrientes.The first cd (Buenos Aires oct 8th 1994) is certainly the new line-up, in all its glory, and although the sound quality is a bit varied [its audience taped] its good stuff and bodes well for the UK gig in May. But, the 2nd cd, which is listed as tracks 1-5 december 8th [which could, of course, be a typical botleg mistype for october], 1994 buenos aires, then filled up with Munich 1982 tracks 6-11 causes me problems. Can anyone confirm that these first 5 tracks are indeed the new line-up? They sound to me like the 82 line up for the whole of the cd. Are the new line up playing Matte Kudasi, Talking Drum, Larks Tongue Pt 2, Heartbeat and Sleepless? Anyone who knows when they actually did play Buenos Aires, tracklists etc, or who has heard the cd and knows more than me - I'd love to know!

rupert loydell

From: Nadav Noah Caine <nadav at leland dot Stanford dot EDU>
Subject: Bruford's conversion to KC
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 01:16:28 -0800 (PST)
>From: John Ambrose <jambrose at eden dot rutgers dot edu>
>Subject: Bruford
>        I was thinking about Bill Bruford's conversion from Yes to King
>Crimson.  On the one hand, it kind of strikes me as a little weird.  That
>is, he left Yes at the pinnacle of their popularity...

It's been awhile since I read the story, but I remember that Bruford somewhat non-plussed showed up for the KC audition. He expected to just play some, after all he was the drummer for Yes, but instead Fripp asked him to play in 11-time, or some such difficult signature. He was so stunned, because he couldn't do it and it was so unexpected, that he explained later that he wanted to go home right then and practice, and learn it, and be a part of this intriguing band where he was expected to do such things.... Ahh, I love artistic growth!! - Nadav

From: Nadav Noah Caine <nadav at leland dot Stanford dot EDU>
Subject: Soundscapes in SF response
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 01:25:39 -0800 (PST)
>From: neufeldk at noc dot usfca dot edu (Kenley Neufeld)
>Subject: Soundscapes & San Francisco
>I recently purchased the RF CD "1999: Soundscapes-Live in Argentina" and am
>very pleased.  I had not really heard any strickly soundscapes material
>prior to this purchase.  When he played in San Francisco recently I was
>very upset that I did not make the concert but now, in hindsight, I am not
>so dissappointed.  The mixed reviews posted to Elephant Talk make sense now
>that I have heard the music.  Slim's is not the place to listen to this
>kind of music.  It is a bar with standing only!

I appreciate the sentiment but I must disagree. Slim's wasn't perfect, but it is mostly small tables, which is actually very nice relative to the kind of folding-chairs in a row venue. It is not standing-only. Also, I found his second show at Slim's to be significantly more interesting than the Argentina recordings. I thought that they had more pathos, a lighter touch with more lyricality at times, more interesting things going on --as much as I love the Argentina recordings. For that second show, seating was intimate and comfortable, and Fripp's sister had been at the first show --well, it was actually a nice atmosphere, a sense of relief that the busy first show had let out, and I only wish Kenley and other ET subscribers could have been there.

- Nadav

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:22:50 -0500
From: Rob Martino <martino at ctron dot com>
Subject: Strange sounds and instruments


One thing that fascinates me as I sit here listening to VROOOM is the very unique sounds from the guitars and sticks.

What type of signal processing equipment/guitar synths do these guys use? Fripp in particular has some fantastic sounds, that don't sound like any guitar or synth I've ever heard.

Also, what is an Infinite guitar (on the Damage CD)?


Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 08:25:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Sherman <sherman at lclark dot edu>
Subject: Re: Tony Solo album


I'm not sure about an interview in the Yes newsletter, but Tony Levin will be interviewed in an upcoming issue of Bass Player Magazine.


Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 08:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Erik Lyons <psu02770 at odin dot cc dot pdx dot edu>
Subject: The Great Deceiver

Hello ET-ers,

This is a response to several different comments on TGD. First of all, I would suggest that if you have any doubts about whether or not you would enjoy this set, don't buy it. When it was released, I thought I was dreaming because I couldn't have asked for anything better. The '73-'74 band was a bold and very successful statement about live performance. Some might find it monotonous (especially those whose favorite KC albums are not LTiA or SaBB), but this listener remains blissfully deceived.

Regarding Jukka's problem with Disc 3, it sounds like a manufacturing defect. This can happen with any CD-- a good case for keeping your receipts. My copy has never had a problem, and a friend who has it also has no complaints.

Erik Lyons <psu02770 at odin dot cc dot pdx dot edu>

P.S.- TGD appears to be out of print. 8-(

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 13:05:48 -0500
From: nbratton at umich dot edu
Subject: Toyah on screen

Hey everybody, I just saw the film "Anchoress" last night. Toyah was a principal character, and i must say, did a rather good job. The film was about a young woman in feudal England who devotes herself to the Virgin Mary and lives in this tiny (and I mean miniscule!) room adjoining the church. It was not bad, but throughout the entire viewing I tried not to laugh, because there were so many similarities to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. This movie is quite serious, but still bore some striking resemblances. If you have the chance, I reccommend you see it. Cheers!

Nick Bratton

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:25:30 -0800
From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold)
Subject: Re: Great Deceiver

In Elephant Talk #172, nbratton at umich dot edu writes:

> Is the Great Deceiver set really worth buying?

Oh my God, Yes! Let's go through your list of comparative titles:

Earthbound - sucks wads, bought and sold the vinyl, I refuse to own it S&BB - excellent but short, partly studio recordings Unpronounceable - excellent music but mediocre sound quality

I could add to the list CD boots of:

These additional boots are more comparative to The Great Deceiver particularly because they are of the same time period, and in a few cases, the same shows appear on The Great Deceiver. In US $, these boots could cost you over $60 easily (at $20-$30 per "import" at "reputable" CD shops).

These boots have some good moments on them, but the sound quality leaves much to be desired, and in some passages, you can't hear the band over the audience.

The Great Deceiver, however, is mind-blowingly well-mastered and diverse. The sound quality is amazingly clear, crisp and "heavy". For US $60 you get three CDs over 75 minutes long and another just under 70 minutes long. You get one whole concert, three almost-whole concerts, and excerpts from two more performances, offering a wide diversity of playing. It contains a fairly large percentage of improvisations (30% of playing time), which is the meat and potatoes of this incarnation of Crimson.

After buying TGD, I cringe at the thought of popping one of my CD boots on the CD platter. There simply is no comparison, the boxed set is well worth the price, and certainly blows doors off of what you'd find on boots.

Now, if old members of the band could put out an "Early Live Stuff" so I don't feel inclined to buy the Plumpton Festival '69 boot, and if the new incarnation would feel inclined to put out an "80's Live Stuff" so I don't feel inclined to buy Indisciple Mining Rocks, then I'd be really happy...

At least there's the rumor of the new King Crimson putting out a 2CD Live in Argentina '94 set this summer through Discipline Records (YES!). Now *that's* the right way to handle bootlegging.

- Brian

Brian Arnold                              arnold at lumina dot com
Director of Software Development
Lumina Decision Systems, Inc.

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 13:51:36 EST
From: Gil Katzenstein <Gil_Katzenstein at rml dot niaid dot pc dot niaid dot nih dot gov>
Subject: Thrak & ET

Fellow ETers-

Though there has been a fairly continuous discussion about whether or not a "double trio" is an adequate description of the most recent incarnation of King Crimson, I thought I'd share my own view as regards Thrak.

The 80's Crimson was infused in part by the musical tension/harmony/ dissonance of the two guitars weaving a blanket of sound that was at times at odds with itself and then seemingly without transition acting in unison to propel the sound foward. I see it akin to an intense debate/discussion in which the participants are both strongly set in their positions and driving the level and intensity of the antagonism/synergism forward by virtue of their intensity and individuality towards a transcendent truth, if you will ("...dialogue, diatron, descension, declamation, double talk!").

I felt initially that the addition of Trey and Pat to the court was superfluous (I know this borders on heresy doubting the wisdom and vision of Fripp) not because they aren't great musicians in their own right but rather that the sound and power of Monsieurs Levin and Bruford is so great, in itself, that the new voices could not be heard. Wrong I was as Thrak proves so well. The interplay of the two drummers propels the song forward creating a web of pounding intensity that sends chills up my spine. Their interaction in the context of Crimson is akin to that of Fripp and Belew which would lead me to describe this most exciting band not as a "double trio" but rather a "triple duo."

Brian Eno has described art as a relationship between the subject and the medium (my apologies to my vast oversimplification of his most elegant argument). I like this characterization. Thus, if I must put a value on my relationship to Vrooom, I'd say it was grossly UNDERpriced as this is without a doubt the most innervating music I have heard for years.

Elephant Talk I must say has been a uniquely rewarding experience. The articulation, maturity, interest, and open-mindedness of it all is refreshing and educational-I believe we have here a global village of Crimsonites. I thank all who contribute to this and especially those who have painstakingly transcribed interviews and such and, of course, Toby.

Gil E. Katzenstein, Ph.D.
Gil_Katzenstein at rel dot niaid dot pc dot niaid dot nih dot gov

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:23:02 -0500
From: James MacKenzie Crawford <jmc at wolverine dot utias dot utoronto dot ca>
Subject: Re: Belew's Solo Stuff.

Hi everybody, I'm replying to two Belew posts in the last digest here:

  1. Dolph Chaney:

    He was defending Belew's completely solo efforts. I agree with him. Not only because it is high caliber music (he's even a pretty good drummer), but there is no shortage of his colaborative work anyway, so why complain? He pops up everywhere, not only in Zappa, Bowie, Talking Heads, KC, The Bears, etc.

  2. Chris Pardua:

    > A couple weeks ago I picked up Belew's _Mr. Music Head_ (I like it) and
    > _Inner Revolution_ (I love it!); what else of his material is worth
    > getting?  I've heard about _Young Lions_ and I saw something that seemed to

    Well, although Adrian seems to be a little disenchanted with his work on YL retrospectively, I would say this is my favourite Belew album. I just love "I Am What I Am", an all out cool-Belew-jam song with great guitar sections and some philosopher guy named Omega speaking about something, who knows what! The two Bowie duets are good too. This album was done just before the Sound and Vision tour. Also, Lone Rhino is a very good record too - his first. If you can find this one, buy it for sure. I've never seen it on CD (except for about half of it on Desire Of The Rhino King - a compilation of pieces from his first three albums). And if you're an over-the-edge Belew fan (like me!) don't miss his acoustic album (The Acoustic Adrian Belew), not available in record stores, but just call up (513)871-1500, they'll set you up. Sorry for rattling on here, just can't say enough about AB!

See ya folks, I have to get dressed - to go out of my you-know-what .....

James M. Crawford                                         (416)667-7744
University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies     (416)667-7799 fax
jmc at wolverine dot utias dot utoronto dot ca

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:39:39 -0500
Subject: Crimson tour dates
From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <awilson at bbn dot com>
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.

Could someone somewhere post updated tour information? There was a previous post that said there were shows in Boston and Providence on the 2nd and 3rd of June, now supposedly they are in San Fransicso on those dates.

Ticket B*st*rd only knows of the shows in Buffalo and NYC. If these are the only shows, I would go to NYC if there will be no New England shows, but I would like to know before NYC sells out!


Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:54:24 -0500
Subject: Tour Dates
From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <awilson at bbn dot com>
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.

I just spoke w/Mark Perry at Possible Productions, and he said that the revised tour dates will be mailed next week, if you're on their mailing list. He also said he would post it here. Apparently there have been quite a few changes.


Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:07:45 -0500
From: dichiara at neuro dot duke dot edu (Tim DiChiara)
Subject: Praise for Fripp Discography

Toby/Elephant Talk -

I'd like to personally thank all those involved with compiling the Fripp discography <www.bio.net/music/fripp.robert>. It truly is an astounding contribution. For years I had resisted the Internet onslaught--it always struck me an an silly club for smarmy techno-trendoids--but this list alone has made me a convert.

A few pleas: I thought I was the *only* person who had ever heard of Fripp's collaboration with the Soft Machine offshoot Matching Mole. I have one of their tracks on a rare compilation called "The Progressives", but I've scoured record conventions to find the entire album--to no avail. Can anyone direct me towards a copy? Also, can anyone out there provide a review of Fripp's recent work with The Orb, The Grid, and Future Sound of London? I've never heard of these bands. (I apologize if this topic has already been discussed in ET.)

        Tim DiChiara                     "The stuggle toward to the summit
        Dept. of Neurobiology             itself suffices to fill a man's
        Duke University                   heart" -Albert Camus' epitath
        Durham, NC  27705 USA

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 21:31:49 -0500
From: ThadKirk at aol dot com
Subject: ET#172 Great Deciever.. et al

Hello out there.

This is my first Et posting after sitting back and watching for several weeks....A few comments....

  1. The Great Deceiver CD box set is just fabulous. My favorite stuff on it is on disc #3 which also was stolen from my car last summer. I was unsuccessful in getting a replacement anywhere but found a fellow Crim fan (thru AOL)in L.A. to make a DAT copy for me. There is a version of Starless on #3 that will just leave goosebumps all over you.(the audience is very well behaved especially in the tension and release section) #3 also has a version of Talking drum in which Fripp's guitar reaches some points that are incredible. All over this cd Brufords drums are crisp and clean. Wettons bass is not too over powering as it is in some of the other performances in this set.

  2. I've seen a few comments regarding Eddie Jobson and a connection to KC. I certainly know of his work with UK but didn't realize there may be something else.(The first UK cd seems to be easily available in used shops) I remember seeing the first UK group in '78 on the Philadelphia waterfront...I've heard this was Brufords last appearance with them and on his way back to N.Y. in a limo decided to leave the group.

  3. Whoever thinks KC could exist with out Bill Bruford is wrong. It just wouldn't be the same ....'nuff said.

  4. Can't wait to hear new album and see them in the Tower Theater, Philadelphia May 31! ...saw Gabriel here this past summer- pre Woodstock. Ok, but not great.

  5. VROOOM... Is it just my copy or did the manufacturer not number the cuts on the cd like the liner?---Sorry but Thrak is just too noisy!

Sorry if I'm too wordy. Email me(Thad Kirk at aol dot com)with any responses/ comments so as not to clutter ET. Thanks for reading.

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 23:19:25 -0500
From: ThadKirk at aol dot com
Subject: ET#172 Great  Deceiver..et al ..P.S. VROOOM

VROOOM.... The recording levels on this cd are TOO HIGH! The nominal recording levels for most professional digital audio equipment I've seen ( +4dbm in = +4dbm out / ie. unity) always assumes 14 db headroom. Therefore zero VU, (unity gain) should occur at minus 14 db on the meters of a digital recorder. This should occur for several reasons, the least of which should be to leave some kind of headroom for any analog equipment in which the signal must eventually pass through. The old notion of recording at higher levels to overcome tape hiss just doesn't apply anymore. Sorry if I'm getting too technical, but if this cd seemed loud to you there was a reason for that. Now if the cd mastering people cared so much you wouldn't have to lower your amplifier from a previously set level everytime you listen to VROOOM.

Thad Kirk Engineer WHYY TV/FM Phila.,PA

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 23:53:15 -0500
From: KB305 at aol dot com
Subject: THRAK review

Got my advance cassette of THRAK today, so here's a quick tour after the first listen:

  1. VROOOM (4:37) When it started, I wondered if I had the right tape, because it starts with some very dark-sounding string music. Then it comes... this is of course a rerecording of the VROOOM tune, but with better production. The phrasing is more distinct, little parts have been cleaned up a lot. This leads directly to

  2. Coda, Marine 475 (2:41) the coda as heard on VROOOM

  3. Dinosaur (6:37) A great new song by Adrian, with Beatle-esque guitar line s and typical Adrian lyrics about dinosaur as metaphor for older person "...and they're digging my bones". I can see this as a great video, and, edited, as a possible single. A brief middle section with more of that string music. Someone has a great MIDI string patch on their guitar, I think. Also, Adrian not as elephant but as dinosaur-- a bit uglier guitar sound

  4. Walking On Air (4:37) A very nice love song by Adrian

  5. B'Boom (4:11) A drum duet

  6. THRAK (3:58) Another rerecording, and again, a cleaned up version, with all the brutality clearly in focus

  7. Inner Garden I (1:47) Over chromatic arpeggios, Adrian sings a ballad about a girl in a garden

  8. People (5:53) Another Adrian song about... people and the things they are and do

  9. Radio I (0:43) Some very bizarre electronics

  10. One Time (5:22) Yet another rerecording. Adrian's vocla on this one is far superior, aching, gorgeous. A bit slower than the VROOOM version

  11. Radio II (1:02) Yet more electronic haze

  12. Inner Garden II (1:15) The girl revisited

  13. Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream (4:50) And again, but again, far better production makes the layers of ideas clearer. Adrian does a terrific Little Richard-style scream

  14. VROOOM VROOOM (5:49) VROOOM turned sideways, and sounding more like Red this time. A bit slower, a bit uglier, more lines weaving around, obviously more Stick playing here

  15. VROOOM VROOOM Coda (3:02) Yet an even more brutal and uglier coda, with agonizing Adrian animal noises. A tease of silly piano music at the very end.

It's surprisingly accesible-- it might even appeal to non-fans. Definitely a mature work.



Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 12:24:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitchell Bratton <epiphany at eznet dot net>
Subject: KC Tickets are on sale!

Just thought you all might like to know that the tickets for the first USA stop in Buffalo NY went on sale today (3/11) at 10am. I bought mine at a remote location at 10:05 and got 13th row seats. The place is fairly small where they're playing, so I won't be surprised if it sells out considering how fast they seem to be going (if this morning is any indication.)

I am also trying to get tickets for Toronto, but that show hasn't been officially announced yet. I think the time tickets go on sale is set by the venues, so different places will go on sale at different, unrelated times.

Also, thanks to the E-Talkers who posted the tour info. Without you, I may not even have found out about the show in time to get seats.


(epiphany at eznet dot net)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 18:20:29 -0500 (EST)
From: terry kroetsch f <tkroetsc at mach1 dot wlu dot ca>
Subject: part two of trivia

oh yeah and...new Keith Tippett is amazing (the Dartington concert, 1992 so I guess it is not *new*)...I have most of previous KC members solo stuff but IS there really some Jamie Muir available? Is the Michael Giles CD a reality yet?..and hi to James Dignan for good reasons...and thrilled to see Not Drowning, Waving mentioned - a gorgeous sound, loads of available CDs - e-mail me with questions or info about ND,W..but can anyone help me find My Friend the Chocolate Cake?.......................Thrak you.

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 18:56:23 -0500
From: ai644 at detroit dot freenet dot org (Barry A. Lonik)
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #172

A friend of mine is in frequent contact with Tony Levin. TLev said that the reason the tour is so short is that Adrian insisted on a maximum of three months a year on the road. I don't know the reason for this, and I don't think Tony knows either. He heard that when he was contacted as to when rehearsals would start (he's leaving for England on April 20) and was disappointed just like our friends in Texas.

In the meantime, Tony is trying to complete "World Diary," his solo album. I believe it is mostly (if not entirely) duets with people from all over the world, done in large part (if not exclusively) during the last Gabriel tour. There are two songs with Bruford. He's hoping to have it all done by the time he leaves for rehearsals, but he's having to do all the other work (cover, marketing, etc. etc.) by himself. He may set up an 800 number for orders. Look for news in a couple of months.

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 00:28:12 -0800
From: David A. Craig <dac at cosmic dot physics dot ucsb dot edu>
Subject: mouth music

I recall that someone mentioned a record/band (?) called "mouth music" with the implication that friupp was involved. Could someone please elaborate? What's the record/band called? What's fripp's involvement? What's the record like? Is it any good? (From your perspective, of course.) Specificity appreciated :).

[ I think this is actually a reference to 'Flowermnouth' by No-Man -- Toby ]

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:57:42 -0500
From: WyrdStick at aol dot com
Subject: Humble suggestion for KC:  ticket promos

Hello again ETalk,

I am curious if anyone knows of a discount available for seeing Crimson in multiple cities. (Yes, there are junkies among us -- go figure!)

I have heard that such "package deals" exist in the classical, and sometimes jazz, worlds, but have heard only rumors of the possibility in the rock world. I imagine this would have to be part of the contract between the artists and Ticketmaster (and whatever other colossi us fans have to contend with to get our prized tickets). Any thoughts on the issue, anyone? KC et al.: Is it too late to consider offering such a package deal for the current tour? Could you do it in the future?

Thanks for the bandwidth. Peace (now a Theme),

Kevin Millard
Minneapolis, MN

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:57:55 -0500
From: WyrdStick at aol dot com
Subject: Tour date change(s) -- ?!?

Greetings ETalk,

Friends and I are intent on seeing KC in Chicago, Milwaukee, and our own Minneapolis. However, in our daily consult with the hapless Ticketmastrons, we have thus far discovered only that the Milwaukee show has been confirmed for June *15* (NOT the 12th as previously reported). What gives?

Tickets for the Milwaukee show go on sale tomorrow (3/12). I keep asking about the Minneapolis & Chicago shows but they haven't been confirmed at all yet, apparently.

Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if it's safe to assume that all of the later US tour (from some date forward -- I wonder when exactly?) has been bumped back three days or so ... K. Neufeld (or others west), are those San Fran. dates 6/23 & 6/24, as advertised?

(Perhaps some dates have been bumped back to allow for a well-deserved Southern states detour??)


Kevin Millard
Stick #2272 ('the WyrdStick')
Minneapolis, MN

From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." <jeremysw at umd5 dot umd dot edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 13:15:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The price of good music
>Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:23:36 -0500
>From: Keelo at aol dot com
>Subject: I woudn't gladly
>King Crimson is my favorite band, but unlike the author in #170, I don't
>feel any urgent desire to offer them any more money than the purchase price
>of their CD's or concert tickets.  To me, Robert Fripp and the boys are
>extremely talented musicians, doing their jobs well, and are likely well
>compensated, as the best usually are in a capitalist system.  If they price
t>heir work too high, KC will sell less CD's, and likely introduce fewer new
>fans (why shell out big bucks on a 35 min EP you might not like?)  That's
>their problem.  If we fans buy VROOOM and think we overpaid, its our
>Let's not hold KC up on some teen idol pedestal.  I don't see anything
>wrong with fans giving some feedback on a EP that's a little pricey.

I think that the main question is: how much money are you willing to pay for good music? When I asked myself this question, another one popped into my head:

If a CD had one song on it, but that one song was the "best" (best being objective, of course...) song you will ever hear, how much would you pay for it? What if the song was only 5 minutes long? A 5 minute long CD. How much would you be willing to pay? 10 dollars? 20 dollars? More? For the BEST song you'll ever hear. Of course I am taking the VROOOM debate to an extreme, but it's an interesting question in a world of CD singles and EPs.

Comments, anyone?


Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 22:27:58 -0500
From: sarthur at lutece dot rutgers dot edu (Stephen Arthur)
Subject: used Crimson cds


for anyone living around Cambridge Mass. (Boston), i found VROOOM and Damage(Fripp/Sylvain) selling for $8.50 and $9.99 respectively, used at Mystery Tour Records and Second Coming Records respectively. Hope you enjoy this $14.50 and $6.00 savings respectively from what i paid.

at your service,

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 02:32:25 -0600 (CST)
From: CONARD at KUHUB dot CC dot UKANS dot EDU
Subject: Eno/Fripp

Hello all ET'ers, just a short question: vis. I saw a live copy (uhhh, import or something - ya that was it) of Eno & Fripp in concert from 1974/75 and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it: -sound quality, -music quality (but Fripp IS Fripp), -time Was it all from one concert, or from all over the tour???? I do not rememberingif it had any specifc title other than Fripp/Eno or Eno/Fripp - and then I ofcourse, forgot any titles of the songs preformed, i just remember them being unfamiliar. I only have No Pussyfooting and a couple of other Eno albums. Anyhow I would like to know what other people think of this time period and Fripp preforming his "art". & is it worth getting??? Long ago I think I remember hearing some (E)talk bandied about (but back then I guess it was Discipline) Thats all I really have to say, except that NO CRIMSO ALBUM deserves slander or slaming. There are only our personal preferences at the moment. Remember one thing: "King Crimson is Wagner kicking Nietzsche through a ...meat-grinder" (The Great Deceiver)

Bobby Conard

From: ba07693 at bingsuns dot cc dot binghamton dot edu
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:07:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: More Fripp-works

This is my first posting on ET. I was checking out the Fripp discography and I noticed some omissions. There is a an ambient/dance music group, The Future Sound of London, that released a 2CD album in 1994 entitled "Lifeforms" (Virgin Records, Dist. by Caroline). That album has one track entitled "Flak" (hmm...Thrak? I doubt it) which credits Fripp with "guitar textures and bytes."

I also came across the 1994 CD "inta oo1 cd" by the group FFWD. The music is written and performed by Fripp and others. Supposedly, this is Fripp with the group Orb. It is a very ambient/space album, with a percussive beat on only one track. I came across it at a Newbury Comics in Boston as an English import, so it was kind of pricey. It was originally engineered by David Singleton and the liner notes contain the curious message "no thanks to Tony Arnold." I wonder what that is about. The record label was Intermodo and Discpline.

My third find was Toni Childs' "The Woman's Boat" (1994). If today's Peter Gabriel had a female counterpart (musically), I think she would be it. Fripp plays on about half of the tracks, Trey Gunn plays on even more. David Bottrill is one of the producers. It is very much the feminist concept album, with songs about the various stages and encounters of a woman's life. It's on Geffen.

That's all for now. Perhaps someone out there could tell me what the Roches sound like?

got no truck with a la di da,

Justin Weinberg
ba07693 at bingsuns dot cc dot binghamton dot edu
(sorry! I know that address is horrible, but my university won't let me do anything about it.)

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 14:15:22 -0500
From: BMomchilov at aol dot com
Subject: Robert Fripp as Tony Viscounti?

Recently the local Fox network affiliate broadcasted some sanitized, homogenized documentary from Time-Life called,_The History of Rock and Roll_. I must admit, it did beat watching reruns of the "A-Team"(especially when they do battle with their evil twin brothers). The show did have one highlight/lowlight that would be of interest to KC fans.

A portion of the show discussed the advent of over-produced rock albums and how ( to quote Todd Rundgren), "Everyone thought they had a_Sgt. Pepper's_in them." After an interview with Brian Eno, the camera pans back on a black & white photo of Eno, David Bowie and Robert Fripp. However, the name under Robert Fripp says: Tony Viscounti.

So now I'm confused. Was this a fairly typical mistake, or does Fripp have an alias?? ;-) Can someone help me out on who this Tony Viscounti guy is/was??

Brian (See you in Cinci and Detroit - June 8 & 9) Momchilov


  "Eep-Oop-Ork-Ah-Ah"  Jet Screamer


Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 10:19:25 PST
From: richie at nova dot net dot com (Richard Schiavi)
Subject: San Francisco show on SALE!

Looks like BASS tossed a knuckle ball and starting selling the June 24th (Saturday) tickets yesterday! I got through late in the afternoon and tickets were almost gone, so I'm in the middle/back of the balcony!

I just called and the second show hasn't gone on sale yet, and there are still some in the back of the balcony.

The tickets are 25 bucks PLUS a 4.75 dollar service charge.

Note: at the Warlfield, no drinking in the balcony, also you can't get onto the floor with balcony tickets :-(


BTW, the interest for the party looks great and I'll send out details closer to the date of the show.

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:16:20 -0500
From: ASchulberg at aol dot com
Subject: notes from a newbie

This is my first submittal, so be gentle. I'd like to cast my vote for a tour newsletter on e-mail which I understand was done for Laurie Anderson's tour. Comments from the band members, the audience, the critics; set lists, etc.

Has there been any discussion concerning opening acts or even the need for one?

Also, I understand "Thrak" has been released in Japan. Does anyone have the song titles? Glad to be a part of this endeavor.

From: JDEhm at eworld dot com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 19:35:29 PST
Subject: Exposure and Belew

Hi ya ETers,

In issue #172, Chris Pardua asked about Fripp's _Exposure_ and whether it was worth getting. Chris, use your $8 towards the purchase of _Exposure_ on CD. Though not a part of the 'Definite Editions' remixes, the _Exposure_ CD was remixed by Fripp and the sound quality is excellent. The musical content is outstanding: especially Gabriel/Fripp's reworking of Gabriel's _Here Comes The Flood_ and Daryl Hall's vocals on _You Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette_ are smokin' (pun intended with acknowledgement to _The Mask_). Hearing Hall sing on this album *almost* made me but a Hall and Oates album! This disc runs the musical gambit from rock n' roll and _Red_ to ballads and peaceful Frippertronics. A must in anyone's collection.

In regards to Belew's solo work; get his first album _Lone Rhino_. It is very good and IMHO his best album.

JD Ehm

"It is that way in that it is the way it is."  -  J. Walton

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:23:45 +0100
From: m dot d dot chapman at farmasi dot uio dot no (Mark D. Chapman)
Subject: Lizard vs. Islands


Just a little note on the Island (vs Lizard) debate. I don't have any strong fellings on which KC album is least exciting. As you'll see later I'm a bit out on what's going on. Personally I have never been deeply moved by Larks tongue in aspic. Anyway Lizard is actually my favorite. And I like Anderson from Yes who sings on Prince Rupert Awakes (although I won't altogether disagre that the corous is a bit on the humptybumpty side). Islands is soft and beautiful, but not to ingenious as I experience it. Lizard is a nice combination of progressive Rockm Jazz an classical music that appeals to me. I still can listen to it and find new touches that have passed med before. Discussing whats very good and what is less so, is more or less impossible, but we can exchange what we like and especially why. Now you know a littel about why Lizard is my favourite. It also has a nice balanse of noise and quiet, lovely mellodies andmore rocksy parts.

After having read som ET I find I'm totaly lost. I just found some KC CDs in the US. Here in Norway I have only seen the Young childresn guide, which I previously haven't heard of. I actually haven't heard anything more about KC after, Beat (or ET, Discipline or Two of a perfect pair or whatever the album was and which one of theese was the last one!!?). As you see rather ignorant. Is there a more or less complte discography somwhere?? Preferably with band-members and som of the prominent KCs artists solsoalbums as well. Does KC still do records or only CDs?? What are their latest releases. I haven't seen anything new here in Norway for 5?? or something years!

So long!

Mark Chapman
Oslo, Norway

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:32:44 GMT
From: mpeters at ibm dot net (Michael Peters)
Subject: Re: Henry Cow (ET#172)
> Any of you old aging prog-rockers from the 70's remember a band called >
"Henry Cow" ?

I sure do, and Fred Frith (head of Henry Cow) is still one of the most interesting guitarists around ! Listen to his Guitar Quartets. Incredible stuff, and very enjoyable to see live.

> Does RF ever acknowledge them as an influence ? or vice versa. There are
> similarities between these bands that seem to coincide with the musical
> evolution/revolution of their day.

I don't think there was much of an influence, and the similarities that you see are seen through the fog of 20-25 years distance - at the time (1973) the first Henry Cow LP "Legend" was released, I loved it but it felt *very* different from what KC meant to me at the time. Henry Cow had some connections to the Canterbury scene and to Mike Oldfield, but was very experimental.

> Who came first Cow or KC ?

KC came first. As far as I know "Legend" was Henry Cow's first LP, and that was 1973.

  -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
| Michael Peters <HOP Software>                       CIS 100041,247 |
| Postfach 600645, 50686 Koeln, Germany              mpeters at ibm dot net |

|                  "Do nothing for as long as possible"  (Brian Eno) |
  -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 10:28:28 PST
From: richie at nova dot net dot com (Richard Schiavi)
Subject: san francisco pre-show party update

I got a great positive response to the pre-show party idea in San Francisco so it is going to happen! Plus it is close to the Summer Solstice, which is a good enough excuse for a party anyway! I'll probably open up the basement/garage area to have some sort of barbeque going and stuff, plus it will add space.

I'll send out details closer to the show dates with directions and stuff! But in general, I live in NoeValley/Mission area and public transportion to the Warfield from there is very easy (Bart or JChurch).

I think this will be an interesting and fun event. I can see the Elephant Talk home page photo now ;-)


Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:58:11 -0500 (EST)
From: MOONLIT KNIGHT <JDLISS at amherst dot edu>
Subject: NYC Shows -- Ticketmaster

Do not hold me legally responsible, but upoon harassing a TM phone agent I got the information that KC at the Town Hall in NYC June 3/4 will go on sale on March 27. That's a monday. The price? $40. don't know if that includes service gouging or not. Could not get information as of today (3/14) on Boston, but keep in mind that sometimes it's not in the ocmputer until a couple days before they go on sale. As of now there have been reports of Buffalo and Milwaukee, among others, having already gone on sale.


Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 23:06:16 -0500
From: Smuffy at aol dot com
Subject: Re: THRAK

Hey Crimsoids!

Regarding "THRAK"...
Here is the track listing and times:

VROOOM			4:37
Coda, Marine 475	2:41
Dinosaur		6:37
Walking on Air		4:37
B'Boom			4:11
THRAK			3:58
Inner Garden I		1:47
People			5:53
Radio I			0:43
One Time		5:22
Radio II		1:02
Inner Garden II		1:15
Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream     4:50

Musicians' Credits as follows:
Robert Fripp - Guitars, Soundscapes, Mellotron
Adrian Belew - Guitar, Voice, Words
Bill Bruford - Acoustic & Electric Percussions
Tony Levin - Upright & Electric Basses, Backing Vocals
Trey Gunn - Stick, Backing Vocals
Pat Mastoletto - Acoustic & Electric Percussions

I saw this posted in a local prog-rock fanzine, so the info might be what we often refer to as "of questionable credibility". Anyway, thought it might make for some lively conjecture.

See you all in the big Cyber-arena! John

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 00:29:21 -0500
From: matottls at craft dot camp dot clarkson dot edu (Loren S. Matott)
Subject: Is there a studio cut of Dr. Diamond

I was wondering if KC ever made a studio track of Dr. Diamond It is one of my favorite tracks on TGD. Does anyone have info. on this tune? Like: who wrote it? What are the lyrics? etc.... Also, I heard from a friend of mine that the band Primus was greatly influenced by KC as well as Rush. I know they play part of YYZ on one of their albums, but i was wondering if anyone else saw the resemblence between KC and Primus? I think I detect one but then i have been accused of being musically illiterate. well it's goodbye.

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 10:30:48 PST
From: "Allen Huotari" <allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com>
Subject: THRAK has been released in Japan

I'm just returned from 10 days (daze?) in Japan and I haven't read ET for the past two weeks so excuse me if this is old news but... I purchased THRAK from the Virgin MegaStore in Shinjuku.

In the event this is news, here's the track list/length:

     VROOOM                     4.37
     Coda:Marine 475            2.41*
     Dinosaur                   6.35*
     Walking On Air             4.34*
     B'Boom                     4.11
     THRAK                      3.58
     Inner Garden I             1.47*
     People                     5.53*
     Radio I                    0.43
     One Time                   5.21*
     Radio II                   1.02
     Inner Garden II            1.15*
     Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream  4.48*
     VROOOM VROOOM              5.37
     VROOOM VROOOM: Coda        3.00

     * = songs

released by Canyon International, catalogue number PCCY-00700, mfg. by Pony Canyon, Inc. of Japan

BTW the DGM/Possible Productions notes state that "The Acoustic Adrian Belew" will be released in 1995 except in USA.

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:01:58 -0500
From: GregDunn at indy dot net (Greg Dunn)
Subject: Hi!

Hello, fellow Crimso :)

I'm a newbie on the list (how did it take me 170 issues to find it?) but I've been a Crimson fan since 1969, when their astonishing music gave me an alternative to the local pop radio pap that seemed inescapable...

I followed their music on and off through the late '70s, only to lose touch until the legendary 'Discipline' album. Luckily, a friend pointed me back to KC music at that point, before their last appearance in Indianapolis.

I'd like to sort and present some of the impressions from that concert. It was in 1984, essentially the "Three of a Perfect Pair" tour; in spite of reasonable advertising on the radio, the small venue wasn't overcrowded (The Vogue, in Broad Ripple -- for those who know of it). By an amazing circumstance, I found a seat right behind the mixing board; so I got the best sound in the house.

The set list is a blur; I wish I'd taken time to write it down while still fresh. But some moments are vivid: Levin's marvelous bass in "Sleepless"; Bruford's astonishing percussion accents during "Indiscipline"; A killer rendition of "Elephant Talk" by Belew, complete with extended pachydermic paraphrasing; a spellbinding performance of "Frame by Frame" with Belew and Fripp encouraging each other to renewed bouts of interactive picking -- and that wonderful enigmatic smirk of Fripp's after the abrupt ending of same.

I greatly enjoyed a long blow in the middle of one of the pieces (sorry, can't remember which) where Belew and Bruford ended up playing the same part of the drum kit, tossing drumsticks back and forth at each other as part of the rhythm. Levin drawing masterful chords and thick, chromatic phrases rich in harmonics from his Stick. Fripp rocking to and fro on his stool, the only physical evidence of how intensely moved he was by the awesome sound pouring forth. Three standing ovation encores at the end of the set, halted only when Belew pleaded, "We'll play you something new that we're still working on -- if you'll please let us!" The crowd went instantly silent. Considering that they'd run out of rehearsed songs, the new tune wasn't badly done. I haven't heard it since, so I guess it was only something they were playing with...

Anyway, I was galvanized. I bought the "Three of a Perfect Pair" Japanese concert video, and found it to be a remarkable memento of that particular incarnation of KC. If you've seen it, you know what I mean; if you haven't seen it, buy it! I'll part with my copy if anyone can find me a laser disc; I'm afraid I'll wear the tape out from repeated playing.

So anyway -- the last ten years have been a bit dry, but now I see the band is preparing a re-formation tour. My current plans are to be in Cincinnati in June, unless KC can see their way to appear again in Indy (please, please!).

A quick review of VROOOM: taking Robert's 'calling card' concept seriously, I am delighted with the latest work. Rough, hurriedly mixed, OK; it's all of that. But the sheer power of the performances approaches what I've seen live. VROOOM definitely harks back to the 'Red' era, but seems more polished; listen to the band interaction in the more structured parts of the tune. "Sex..." continues to grow on me, especially the way the vocal seems to bridge the accompaniment bits; it's kind of a ballet of structures. I want to learn the words to "Cage" well enough to follow it when they play it in concert, it's a challenging piece in more ways than one :) "Thrak" is taking the longest to settle in my brain, but I'm sure I'll eventually figure out why I like it. "One Time" has been lurking in my subconscious for a week now; truly a masterful synthesis of Bruford and Belew. Who is playing the wonderful accompaniment? I can't wait to see this album performed live.

OK, I'll shut up for now. More later, if my shipment from Possible arrives this week. Anyone want to wax rhapsodic on Bill Bruford's Earthworks? Mail me, or ask me to post my reviews -- I think the first album in particular is as good as anything Bruford has ever done.

Thanks, Toby, for making this list available. It's great to see others who appreciate the music of these talented people, joining together in one place to worship :) :) If Robert or Tony or any of the others are reading -- Hi! Please keep up the great work.

| Greg Dunn                        | "Information is not knowledge; |
| Greg at gdunn dot nawc-ad-indy dot navy dot mil | knowledge is not wisdom;       |
| gregdunn at indy dot net                | wisdom is not truth."          |
| GregDunn at aol dot com                 |                    Frank Zappa |

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 06:40:40 GMT
From: mpeters at ibm dot net (Michael Peters)
Subject: Re: Henry Cow (ET#172)
> Any of you old aging prog-rockers from the 70's remember a band called >
"Henry Cow" ?

I sure do, and Fred Frith (head of Henry Cow) is still one of the most interesting guitarists around ! Listen to his Guitar Quartets. Incredible stuff, and very enjoyable to see live.

> Does RF ever acknowledge them as an influence ? or vice versa. There are
> similarities between these bands that seem to coincide with the musical
> evolution/revolution of their day.

I don't think there was much of an influence, and the similarities that you see are seen through the fog of 20-25 years distance - at the time (1973) the first Henry Cow LP "Legend" was released, I loved it but it felt *very* different from what KC meant to me at the time. Henry Cow had some connections to the Canterbury scene and to Mike Oldfield, but was very experimental.

> Who came first Cow or KC ?

KC came first. As far as I know "Legend" was Henry Cow's first LP, and that was 1973.

  -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
| Michael Peters <HOP Software>                       CIS 100041,247 |
| Postfach 600645, 50686 Koeln, Germany              mpeters at ibm dot net |

|                  "Do nothing for as long as possible"  (Brian Eno) |
  -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 08:47:17 GMT
From: "Steve Moore" <smoore at uk dot oracle dot com>
Subject: Thrak release date & previews!

Thrak is being advertised as released on 3-APR-1995 in the UK on DGM through Virgin. The first 10000 CDs are a 'gold limited edition'.

There is a premium rate phone number where you can hear previews of tracks from Thrak on 0891 313356.


Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:26:11 -0600
From: Glenn Astarita <gastarit at comm dot net>
Subject: Fripp/jazz

Hi all,

While I'm thinking jazz at the moment...looking back..I can't think of any other "rock" or I should say non-jazz guitarist introducing as many jazz-based chord structures into the rock arena prior to RF. Listen to In the Court of....today. Listen closely to RF's voicings, chordal arrangements and fills on that album. This was 1968 I believe. The only other guitarist that comes to mind would be Fred Frith. Anyone agree ? Who else might have been so innovative. I assure you not many. Frank Zappa didn't really mix it up much till the early 70's I believe..


Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:44:25 -0500
From: Kurt Kleinschmidt <Kurt dot Kleinschmidt at UC dot Edu>
Subject: Elephant Talk Posting

Good People,

I have heard from two separate sources that the tour is CANCELLED! It is to be rescheduled for late summer into fall. Tell me it ain't so!


Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:49:55 EST
From: CTYM80A at prodigy dot com (MR BRIAN K PRESTON)
Subject: Crimson Shows

Hello everyone. I am trying to confirm the date(s) for the KC show in San Francisco or any on the East Coast, esp. south of New York. When I call the Warfield box office they say the show is Saturday June 24. Someone posted here saying the shows were June 2 & 3. Does anyone have more info? I'm going to try to fly out to SF from North Carolina for the show...so I need to plan it out right.

Also, I had posted a while back but never saw my post listed. That was about a KC bootleg I used to have called "Indiscipline", a live recording of rough versions of songs from Discipline, wild versions of Sheltering Sky and Thelu Hun Jingeet as I recall. Anyone heard this? I can no longer find my copy, lost thru multiple moves.

Yall may know this already but Mark at Possible Prod. says that the guys have re-worked Vrooom and Thrak quite a bit for the upcoming disc. He thinks everyone will be quite pleased! Cant wait...now, just gotta get them to come close to the Carolinas! Later.

BKP in NC :-)

Thanks for any SF show info. E me at

CTYM80A at prodigy dot com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 18:39:20 EST
From: msmith at crt dot doj dot gov
Subject: Crimson Tix

I have tickets to the Buffalo show and, just this morning, got tickets to the Washington show. I was bit surprised at the very high ticket prices (and TicketBastard "service charges" didn't help), which came to $32 and $40.50, respectively. Anyone hear if they're touring with the Beatles or something? :) Anyway, seeing as they're not playing in half of the country, i won't complain and be glad that i'll get see them twice. In any case, many of the other venues should already be on sale or very soon. Good Luck Everyone. Oh, i also read the Tony Levin album will be out this spring sometime and will be an independent release available through mail order (anyone know if it's on Discipline?).



msmith at crt dot doj dot gov
washington, dc

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 17:38:58 -0800
From: David A. Craig <dac at cosmic dot physics dot ucsb dot edu>
Subject: warfield!!!

Waaah! Tickets for King Crimson at the warfield (san francisco) are *already* on sale (BASS 1-510-762-2277), and moreover saturday june 24 is *already sold out* ... as of thursday afternoon sunday june 25 is still avaiulbale.

*Antone with a G.A. ticket (or two, or three) to sell for the saturday show, please contact me! (i'm hoping some extras were bought ....)* I beg of you ... this is so durn unjust.

Notice that the dates of these two shows have been moved up one day from the schedule posted to this l;ist a few weeks ago. The show in san jose appears to have been cancelled, according to them. Both the wiltern in san francisco and symphony hall in san diego say the shows remain unconfirmed, and tickets won't go on sale until 4-6 weeks before the shows (if confirmed.) That tickets are on sale for the warfield already is *very* unusual ... what's the story here? Someone posted last time that the on sale sate excuse me date was 3-19, so i called today just to make sure, and to my dismay found that the saturday show was already sold out. Who would've guessed? And why 3-12 instead of 3-19? (Sorry; i'm still smarting from the blow to my dreams.)

Hope this information proves useful to some.

Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 02:24:40 -0600 (CST)
From: 5436DUMKER at VMS dot CSD dot MU dot EDU
Subject: KC in Milwaukee

Hi, everyone!

Just thought I'd let you all know that tickets have gone on sale for King Crimson's Milwaukee show. The date is June 15 at the Riverside Theatre. I already bought my third row seat!


From: Brian Thomson <BrianT at computing dot emap dot co dot uk>
Subject: THRAK advertised
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 08:24:00 PST

The latest issue of Mojo magazine (UK) has a full back pageTHRAK advert/commercial. It says THRAK is to be released on 3 April 1995, on Virgin.

The artwork looks like it's going to be interesting, at least. The first 10,000 CDs are to be limited edition gold discs.

BUT... they ad also gives an 0891 number you can call to hear tracks (the UK equivalent of US 1-900 numbers).

HOW DARE THEY?! I know they would all like to be richer, but this just preys on stupid kids with free access to a telephone.

Blame Virgin, I suppose... Thrak You, too!

Subject: Tour Promotions
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:48:02 EST
From: John Saylor <jsaylor at MIT dot EDU>

Last night, while working on my c programming assignment [a horror involving binary and text file writes and reads] I put on WZLX in Boston ["classic hits"]. I run all over the dial when programming [from Bach to Brandy], it helps me not to notice the time passing as I try to get a pointer to a string to copy itself into the block of memory I just allocated for it, &c; but last night I was on classic hits.

Well, what should come over the airwaves but an ad for the King Crimson tour date in Boston on 2 June. Unfortunately, the only music they played was from "In the Court of the Crimson King" [title cut & schizoid man]. I was aghast.

Usually, I expect little from comericial radio. But here they were promoting the Crimson tour [a worthwhile enterprise] with completely outdated music. I mean, they might have well as played Frankie Vali and the Four Seasons doing "Rag Doll."

And the voiceover said, "Featuring the original members of King Crimson Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, Trey Gunn, Tony Levin, Pat Mastelotto, and Bill Bruford."

Huh? Does no one care for accuacy anymore? I never believe anything I read [including Elephant Talk] or hear just because I read or hear it, but this is incredible.

Or maybe they're trying to get the boomers [reference to post WWII babies in USA, the former "hippies"] to buy tickets by selling the band as a nostalgia act. If so, won't they [audience expecting "In the Court ..."] be surprised?

Just thought you'd like to know.

-- <a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html"> jsaylor</a>

Mike Stok