From elephant-talk at arastar dot comMon Mar 6 05:52:24 1995 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:22:20 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v95 #171 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 171, Friday, 3 March 1995 Today's Topics: A few notes from the Editor Re: solo projects Glitterbug is *not* the Fripp and Eno disc Re: Tourdates/Discography KC in USA '95 Toyah singles, etc (Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170) USA vs GD (for the last time, PLEASE?) the price issue Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170 Islands coda Re: Why no Rush? Re: Price of VROOOM (not again!) Any Chance of an antipodean tour? Re: Vrooom vs. Hot Seat team player belew's talents/playing solo Re: SSEDD on deodorant ad re: to err is eg Adrian's solo albums First post! kc tour Elephant Talk Thrak is coming, etc Re: ET #170 Bruford's worth Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170 KC tour dates another VROOOM review WIRED on VROOOM Review of Vrooom Re: Why not Rush? ET:Address for KC to beg for tourdates [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Toby Howard Subject: A few notes from the Editor Hi everyone. 1. The ET home page has been revised and expalnded (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html) and the archives have been rearranged (via the home page or directly at ftp://ftp.cs.man.ac.uk:/pub/toby/elephant-talk/). There's now a lot more material available on-line. USA readers: please use the mirror site, at ftp.qualcomm.com:/pub/et. Thanks to Ken Bibb for this. 2. I'd like to add a page to the ET WWW pages, linking to to the home pages of ET readers. If you'd like your page to be included, please send me the URL. Let's see who's out there! 3. There's an interesting article about Robert at http://www.futurenet.co.uk/music/futuremusic/January95/Fripp.html 4. For new readers, the 1995 tour dates are available at: WWW: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/kc-tourdates-95.html FTP: ftp://ftp.cs.man.ac.uk/pub/toby/elephant-talk/kc-tourdates-95 5. 'Invitation' is the new CD by the California Guitar Trio and it is _terrific_. UK/Europe people can order it from DGM, and I guess Americas people from Possible Productions. Addresses: Discipline Global Mobile, PO Box 1533, SALISBURY, Wiltshire, SP5 5ER. (44)722 781042: fax. 73064,1470 at compusserve dot com On-line WWW orders: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/dgm-orders.html Possible Productions 351 Magnolia Ave. Long Beach, CA 90802 USA Phone or Fax Orders to (310) 491-1945. E-mail Orders to Dinokiller at aol dot com T [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Brian Rost Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: solo projects In digest #170 Lars Marius Garshol sez: > This actually makes me wonder WHY they go on playing solo. Is it because > it's easier and more convenient, not to be troubled with the (possibly > differing) meanings and intentions of other musicians? Do they really > prefer it to their group work? Or what? As a musician currently working in four different bands, let me say that most musicians have diverse musical interests and solo or side projects let them explore music that their "main" outlet can't (or won't) use. No one musical aggregation is ever going to be able to satisfy all of its members 100%. I don't think of one project being "preferred" over another, really. They are *different* and therein lies in the appeal. Brian Rost Ascom Timeplex APBU rost_brian at timeplex dot com ******************************************************** "There were three things that keep a group of musicians together: the social life between the members, the money they make and the quality of the music. And any two of them will keep the band together." -Michael Giles ******************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:37:49 -0600 From: gtaylor at heurikon dot com (Greg Taylor) Subject: Glitterbug is *not* the Fripp and Eno disc >From: Paul Martz >> The latest issue of the Ambient mailing list's digest mentioned the >> upcoming release "at a future date" of Eno's new album "Glitterbug". Is >> this the long awaited Eno & Fripp work? The upcoming release is soundtrack music for a film which uses some of Derek Jarman's rough material. It was my impression that Jarman died before the project was finished, and it passed on to someone else, but I wouldn't swear to it. The material for this disc is all Eno, and I've heard no one associated with the project claim that Fripp is involved in it, although that *could* be possible. For now, you'll have to content yourself with dubbing off the audio from Eno's CDROM headcandy and enjoying the 40% of the disc that includes Fripp. There's also a compilation from All Saints/Gyroscope which precedes the Glitterbug soundtrack by a month or two which will include some material from Glitterbug. I'm pretty sure there's no Fripp on that. Hope this helps, Gregory I chose the perspectiveless, tall nonsense of God's noise aloft over the jagged parish, thinking everything else was a dream too lonely for words. It was, but just as lonely is praying that all wives return, all dogs live. Eternity takes up all the room in the world. You can't drive fast enough. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 11:00:00 PST From: John Relph Subject: Re: Tourdates/Discography >18 June Spokane Opera House >19 June Seattle 5th Avenue Theatre >20 June Vancouver Vogue Theatre >21 June Portland Schnitzer Concert Hall >23 June San Francisco Warfield Theatre >24 June San Francisco Warfield Theatre >25 June San Jose Centre for Perf. Arts Damn it! Of course! I will be in Idaho this entire week. And I've never seen Crimso before. I probably never will. >i found two lp's that needed to be added to the discography: > >RF- Four from Exposure EG/polydor Pro 090 > >and also: "celebration" by robert Fripp on the lp "sometimes a great >notion" proceeds to the British Deaf Association EMI SP8410RS Both of these LPs are in the Fripp discography (http://www.bio.net/music/fripp.robert). Latest revision: 3.4k (10 Feb 95). -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 13:47:18 -0500 From: derek-furstenwerth at hlp dot com (The Destroyer) Subject: KC in USA '95 I have been waiting with mmuch anticipation for the summer 1995 KC tour. While I am thrilled that they are touring the US, I am frankly a little stunned that they are choosing to play nowhere south of the Midwest (excepting of course, LA and San Diego). So stunned that I actually quit lurking and sent in this post. COME ON GUYS, PEOPLE IN HOUSTON LIKE KING CRIMSON, TOO!!!!! KC is playing a **LOT** of smaller cities than Houston. I have not failed to find the new album in ANY record store here, unless they have been sold out, so it's not like no-one here listens to KC. Is it really that bad to play in Texas? I realize the tour is short, but to skip the entire southern half of the country is really uncalled for. Enough with the harsh tones, now on to the soft, cajoling tones directed right at the band... Pleeeeease, pleeeeease, pleeeeease pleeeeease add some dates in Texas (at least one in Houston!). I know your tour is short and full, but I really don't want to drive to Denver or Chicago (the two closest venues) to see you, and I'm sure more people will show up at a Houston show than will drive from Houston to one of the aforementioned locations. Pleeeeease?? Come on, other Texans, help me out! Martin Wagner, I know you're reading this. Get all those Austinites on-line and send some begging e-mail. We're not proud. We just want to see King Crimson! Thank you all for your time and forbearance. Lay-tor, Derek [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:34:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Lager Lout Subject: Toyah singles, etc (Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170) > one more thing, Toyah related: > > just purchased two 45's of her's hope somebody could shed some light on > please. > > "I want to be Free" B-side: "Walkie-Talkie" & "Alien" Safari label SAFE 34 > both side A & Walkie are written by wilcox/bogen and other w/b/glocken > regretably no date can anybody help out? along with no mention of an album > the single is from or going to be from. `I Want To Be Free' charted 16-May-1981 in the UK, and is taken from the Anthem album, also from 1981. No connections with Fripp here, although Nigel Glockler later went on to play drums for Saxon (I think), and the other major hit single from this album, `It's A Mystery', was written by Keith Hale, who played keyboards for Hawkwind around this time. This album was released on CD, but is a bit difficult to get hold of on that format... > the other is a picture 45 IEYA (wilcox/bush/bogen) B-side: Helium Song > (Space Walking) (wilcox/bush) SAFE P28 1980 from "the Blue Meaning" i have > no clue if Fripp is on it or not Fripp isn't on this album (c. 1980), the band members at the time were Willcox, Bogen (guitar/vocals), Bush (Keyboards, Trumpet), Francis (Bass) and Bray (drums). As far as I know, the first time Fripp was involved with her recordings was on 1987's Desire album, co-writing the title track (Geballe, of the Crafty Guitarists, co-wrote `Revive the World' on the same album) Someone asked a while ago what her next project is (besides appearing on telly in Kavannagh QC, a Derek Jarman tribute and the kids' show `The Ink Thief'!), the next album is `Take the Leap', which has a number of songs by her new backing band, Friday Forever (nothing to do with SAOTW! Apparently she met them when doing a TV documentary or something) as well as some reworked older songs. As far as I know this has only been released in Japan so far, although I've acquired a demo tape dating back to late 1993; this album is definately worth having (IMO, anyway). I suspect that she'll be resting from touring for the forseeable future after a very extensive tour ended fairly recently. Cheers, Chris. "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" - Neil'83 Chris Hedley email: cbh at vodka dot rhc dot dec dot com Digital Equipment Corporation ltd phone: +44 1279 652250 Colchester, Essex, England fax: +44 1206 785309 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:45 GMT From: ronc at cogs dot susx dot ac dot uk (Ron Chrisley) Subject: USA vs GD (for the last time, PLEASE?) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 22:00:56 -0500 Subject: Re: AS/RF Interview, Starless... In that same vein, I am surprised that there is so much fervor in trying to find the "USA" CD. All of the tracks (except "Asbury Park") were taken from the Providence show that is on the GD Box Set. And Asbury park is on "Frame By Frame." --Jeremy This has been discussed at length, if not here then at least on a.m.p. The performances on USA are *not* all the same as the ones on GD. A casual listen to, say , Lament will tell you that. Plus, even if the performances were the same, USA would be of interest due to the superior violin overdubs that Jobson added. Bob, please reissue the original version of USA. King Crimson transcends your personal likes and dislikes. :-) -- Ron Chrisley (ronc at cogs dot susx dot ac dot uk) http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ronc/index.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Jean M. Adams" Subject: the price issue Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 21:45:21 EST Dear ET readers, Just killing time until I can call to try and snag some tickets for the detroit show(hope to see some of you there :)). Since the new album isn't out yet either I just wanted to comment on the opinions on the price of VROOM et all. I think that the price asked is justified and IMHO a steal. Last summer I bought a painting from a well known local artist and even though the painting was very small I paid fifty dollars for it. If I was to look at the price as a mark up from the price of the paint and canvas I would have thought I'd been ripped off. The painting is more than that of course and brings me great joy every time I look at it, I'm very glad I bought it. If one was to consider the musicians of KC as world reknown artists and I'm guessing that one work of art would fetch a few hundred if it were a painting or statue, then if each song was considered one painting, VROOM could easily cost $600 or more. For some bands the idea of their songs being art is pretty far fetched (name of your least fav. band here) but I think not for KC. I already can visualize the posts complaining about ticket prices for the tour. I'm pretty positive that the band aren't extremely wealthy although I hope they will be some day and the multi multi platinum albums aren't a yearly occurance. These guys are just trying to make a living. I just tried to get REM tickets for the latest tour and saw all the promo stuff on MTV with them bragging about how they became millionares when they scored their contract with warner bros. and since after that all of their albums were commercial successes and so I hoped to pay a norm. price for a ticket. Wrong. $35 to $45 and they are filling large arenas(7000 to 10,000 easy). I think IMHO that KC should make more money that it does and I love the guys and am willing to support the music I want to hear. If we don't we won't have any albums to look foward to, infact buy multiple copies of THRAK. Give some to you friends. Give them as wedding gifts, birthday gifts or for any reason. I really hope I didn't flame but my Midnight Oil tickets for their last tour cost only $27 with service charges(give or take a $1)and they were great. I like to see a band that cares for its fans and the music. Feel free to write me at jadams at mtu dot edu if you would like to trash my comments. see ya -- June 9 state theatre Detroit MI -- Jean [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 23:02:47 -0500 From: ai644 at detroit dot freenet dot org (Barry A. Lonik) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170 In response to Peter dot Flach at kub dot nl in ET #169 regarding the boot called Absent Lovers...I have this record and it is quite good. I highly recommend it, as it offers a decent quality recording of the band in a form we don't have available to us. It does rip off the music, Fripp's words and Tony's photos, but what are you gonna do. There's a Bruford solo before Indiscipline that is one of his "I will now do the impossible" jobs, and the song is also hilarious with people shouting to Adrian "Did you like it?" when he says "...to see if I still liked it..." Also, there's a beautiful rendition of Sartori. For those who have been ripping Adrian, let me say that while I'm not an enormous fan of his solo work (I quite like Young Lions in particular), he does put on a great show, is very much in touch with his audience (at one show in Detroit he pleaded with the bouncers to let us dance in front of the stage when I appealed to him), is very innovative and very personal, and for all of those qualities I have great respect for him. Moreover, he adds a certain levity to Crimso that, though I am a huge fan of Fripp and Bruford, is a welcome offset to their intensity. We're very lucky to have him, IMHO. Does anyone know what happened to Gordon Haskell (from Lizard and Poseidon's "Cadence and Cascade")? My brother (who saw every Crimso show in Michigan from 1969-1975; I've seen every one since in our King Crimson relay) has an album of his called It Is and It Isn't that came out not long before Lizard. I recall from The Young Person's Guide booklet that Fripp made some remark that Crimson is a very intense thing and some people can't handle it, in reference to Haskell's departure. Any clues? And finally, for those criticizing Islands, let me just say that The Sailor's Tale rules. One of the best KC songs ever, I'd say. That alone makes it a good album. Hey, my first contribution to ET!! I am the ocean Lit by the flame I am the mountain Peace is my name I am the river Touched by the wind I am the story I never end [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:45:27 +0800 From: kbibb at arastar dot com (Ken Bibb) Subject: Islands coda [for the next issue] > From: Magnus dot Mueller at vetmed dot uni-giessen dot de > Pardon me if this topic has been discussed before. Maybe send me some > private e-mail. [description of the Island Coda deleted] > Does anyone has a glue what that is? Is it the same with the remastered > rerelease? This has been mentioned before, although I don't remember which issues discussed this. Here's Fripp's quote: The invisible Track 13, the Coda from "Islands", was omitted from The Definitive Edition re-mastering of 1989 (released in Japan and the US) through an engineer's error. Here it is, invisible once again. And Eric Tamm's: The last thing we hear on *Islands*, after a lengthy silent interlude following the final song, is the chamber group used for "Prelude: Song of the Gulls" tuning up and the soft yet persuasive voice of Robert Fripp telling them they're going to do it twice more, once with the oboe and once without, then call it a day. He counts off the beat, one-two-three, two-two-three, and ... silence: *Islands* is finished. I suppose you can read into this whatever you want, but to me it seems as if Fripp is telling us (the audience), Look, this is music, and music is made by people, and people have to tune up and practice and rehearse, and there is so much more behind music than the sound, more than ever can be told. His book "Robert Fripp: from King Crimson to Guitar Craft" should be of interest to most readers of this list. Suggested price US$13.95 (I found my copy at Tower Records). ISBN 0-571-12912-9. -- Ken Bibb "Upon a wave of summer kbibb at arastar dot com A hilltop paved with gold jester at crash dot cts dot com We shut our eyes and make the promises we hold" David Sylvian--"Wave" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 21:29:05 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Re: Why no Rush? John Ambrose asked in ET v95 #170: >>I sense a strong contempt for Rush here. Why? Am I wrong? Are you asking if you're wrong about sensing strong contempt for Rush on E-Talk, or are you asking if you're wrong for liking Rush so much, or why you're just plain wrong?! ;>) (See, Mr. Sideways Winky-Smiley, proves I'm kidding around!) All seriousness aside, as Steve Allen used to say, I can only speak for myself and say that I have never noticed any particular bias for or against Rush, except on the part of certain individual contributors, which is their priviledge in a society that, at least at one time, valued Free Speech (as long as you don't yell, "Crowd!" in a fired theater). Email, in general, is a communication medium that provides just enough anonymity that it can bring out the contemptuous side of some folks. (It brings out the silliness in me, mostly.) In such situations, it is generally up to the moderator or other participants, such as yourself (or me!), to remind the larger body of subscribers that there are at least two sides to any issue -- particularly related to aesthetics -- and to censure anyone who takes the comtempt and ridicule too far (especially if the critic starts getting personal, as in "Hey, you actually enjoy Ravi Shankar?!! Well, you're full of horse manure and so low that if you sat on a cigarette paper, your feet wouldn't touch the ground! Furthermore, your mother wears oversize combat boots and your father smokes bat guano....etc., etc." Otherwise, even among fans of a particular musical artist or group there will be a wide diversity of opinions about specific issues; for example, what do KC fans think of the price of VROOOM?! (ooops, a little too close to home, eh?). What's my point -- well, bottom line, my point is that this is, after all, a King Crimson alias, so don't be surprised that SOME (not all) fans will poop on whatever other (read: "competitive") group one might mention. Personally, I don't think I could even begin to form an opinion of Rush...for years, I've thought "Rush" was just the shortened name of "Mahogany Rush" (which shows that I just don't keep up on everything). But, hey, I still haven't listened to all the CDs I already own -- so why do I keep buying more!? Let me make a test: Why don't we discuss the relative merits of having Donovan and Tiny Tim join KC for the tour, so they can upgrade from the Double-Trio to the Double Quartet?! (Oh, oh! Where's my flame-proof jumpsuit?!) Finally, as I love to say, "Take all the fans of all the musical groups and line them up head-to-toe, and they'll point in all directions." ;>( -JOHN "Sorry about that, Chief!" -- Maxwell Smart [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 21:54:30 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Re: Price of VROOOM (not again!) I agree (mostly) with Steve White about being non-plussed by all the upset over the cost of VROOOM (three O's, or two?!).... Anyway, I paid $60 for a CD with only 50% more material, and was happy, so I figure I'm getting a deal on VROOM (you do the math). Where I don't agree (entirely) with Steve is that I'm not saying I'd be happy to pay more -- well, come to think of it, I did pay more, because I got one of the autographed copies. Yea, and those autographs were slightly smeared, but I don't care -- well, if Possible Productions wants to send me a replacement booklet, I'd graciously accept it (but, if you can, this time have them sign in non-smearing ink, okay?). And as someone else pointed out, the `price critics' seem to forget that they threw in a neat poster, which is worth a few bucks, right?! Another reason the price doesn't bother me is because I've paid more than this for audiophile vinyl discs with "only" 30 minutes of music, in the era just before the advent of CDs. I don't judge an album or a CD by its length or its price anyway. Those are the wrong metrics for me. I'm more interested in my interaction-reaction to the music. (What a concept!) Besides, I don't subscribe to the mostly American bias that claims that "Bigger and More is better." (HEY, don't get personal, now!) -JOHN (who wavers between being Too-Serious, and Not-Serious-Enough -- hey, blame it on my Rising Libra!) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 17:32:23 +1100 From: willb at zonk dot geko dot com dot au (William R. Bullock) Subject: Any Chance of an antipodean tour? Hi all, Way down here in Australia/New Zealand, there are many fans (many of us have been since the '60s) who would love to see a tour from KC/Fripp and the others. It is very frustrating when we hear of tours to Japan etc... but they never stretch this far. Is there anyone out there in a position to let us know the possibilities of this happening, or what is needed to make it happen. At least there are CD's. Regards, William -- William Bullock willb at geko dot com dot au [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 22:31:44 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Re: Vrooom vs. Hot Seat Michael Balzer compared Vrooom to ELP's recent "In The Hot Seat".... The only comments I can make, since I haven't heard ELP's "ITHS", is that the skuttle-butt I hear is that Victory (the label) controlled the new ELP release as they did with Yes' "Talk"....now, for some, that info should explain everything. The other note on ITHS is that Keith Emerson was mostly absent from the process, since he's recovering from ulnar nerve surgery. Those who know anatomy know that this means that one of his hands (up through to the elbow at least) has not been working well at all. By the way, ELP fans are as divided about ITHS as some KC fans are regarding the price of VROOOM! (Sorry about that, Chief!) Finally, many fans of Yes and ELP seem to be rejoicing in the purported demise of Victory. -JOHN (I am glad, Michael Balzer, that you are enjoying every single note of Vrooom. It tickles my fancy, literally. I break into a big grin every time I put in on!) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:36:59 CST From: ofajen at services dot more dot net (otto fajen) Subject: team player >2. Fripp says that new-KC team "aim" was only approached in '81, but >elements in the band after that were more intent on using the group as a >vehicle rather than as an end in itself. I don't mean to get personal and sounds personal to me. i read an interview with rf in the roland user group mag some years ago. his comment was basically that it was tremendously difficult to keep the fripp-levin-belew-bruford group working together because each player had a large musical "ego". and yet.... here they are again, in spades. no flames here, but i pretty much totally disagree about bruford. first, of course, it's their business who they work with. second, bruford has been a leader and inspiration in my listening, drumming and composition (as has marotta). 'nuff said. otto [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 22:53:21 CST From: ofajen at services dot more dot net (otto fajen) Subject: belew's talents/playing solo > >This actually makes me wonder WHY they go on playing solo. Is it because >it's easier and more convenient, not to be troubled with the (possibly >differing) meanings and intentions of other musicians? Do they really >prefer it to their group work? Or what? > >--Lars M. > > from my own experience, it may be that the challenge of creating significant music and being in the presence of creating good music keeps them coming back, even if it's difficult. working as a "side man" or part of the team is not the same as being the sole or driving source. for some people, this is more important than fame, bucks, or whether fans approve. otto [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 22:46:23 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Re: SSEDD on deodorant ad Joachim Lous protests the "sell-out" of letting a deodorant ad use a brand-new VROOOM tune.... My first response is, "How do we know it was used by permission?!" Certainly the lack of credits would lead me to suspect unauthorized use. Here in the States, two different supposedly "conservative" candidates for a national office (one for US Senate and one for US Presidential) used a copyrighted songs without permission and were successfully sued by the artists, who were not at all pleased (since they did not, apparently, support the respective candidates). The Senatorial candidate used a Pat Metheny Group tune (Last Train Home), and the Presidential candidate used a Bobby McFerrin song (Don't Worry, Be Happy -- or some such). Since deodorant companies deal with stinky things, I'd say they're capable of dirty tricks. (Sorry about that, Chief.) Finally, it's up to the copyright holders to act if there's been unauthorized use. However, "acting" requires various legal costs, and maybe those are too high to be worth the trouble of stopping the stinky theft. Has anyone sent this info to our Double-Trio heroes? Let them decide. (Maybe it's an inside joke?!) -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 22:44:17 +0800 (PST) From: chris mahmood Subject: re: to err is eg I too have seen several EG errors, the best of which was a cd w/ rf's _Let the power fall_ liner but an Earthworks disk inside the jewel box. (This is back when they were still using the polycarbonate long boxes.) I had to buy it just b/c it seemed so ironic. On a different note, i noticed Udi posted some v. interesting kc tour dates; Specifically, the show at Spokane's Opera house. I lived there for a couple years and while the city (and the State for that matter) leave much to be desired, i can't imagine a better place to see kc--very small, intimate w/ nice acoustics. I would be interested in connecting w/ other west coast ETer's for a roadtrip up the coast (there are twelve shows counting BC). cheers -ckm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 23:13:41 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Adrian's solo albums Lars Garshol laments, as did Bryan Gibson before him, Adrian Belew's recent solo work. Lars adds Steve Hackett, Steve Howe, and David Gilmour to the list. I'm not sure what he's talking about, because Bryan's comments were about Adrian doing EVERYTHING...which is quite different from Hacket, Howe and Gilmour's solo releases, where other musicians are used. But either way, I believe it's important for an artist to express themselves in whatever way best suits them. If you like it, good. If you don't, that's fine too. I have noticed that artists that move out of a group and do solo work, usually return to group work with new vitality and "maturity" -- words fail me now. Anyway, Lars, if I'm unaware of some Hackett, Howe or Gilmour releases that are truly SOLO (in the sense of "no other musicians"), please let me know. I'd be very interested in hearing them. (Oh, I did just pick up Steve Howe's "Not Necessarily Acoustic" live CD, which is truly SOLO, except where Steve plays along with the original demo tracks he created for some classic Howe tunes that were later used by Yes, or subsequent Howe involvements.) Finally, I'm sure there's artistic reasons for going completely SOLO, but there's possibly some monetary reasons as well -- just thought I'd add that to the list of possible reasons for going SOLO. Having friends who're professional and semi-professional musicians, who've been in the studio, the other musicians aren't there purely for the love of playing, or their health, you know. They expect to be paid, whether you like or use the results or not. Besides, some of us actually like Adrian's solo albums! (I know; I'm weird. Most Aquarians are, you know!) ;>) -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 25 Feb 95 11:52:45 EST From: Neal Ford {DSW} <72674 dot 237 at compuserve dot com> Subject: First post! Hello all! This is my first actual post to ET. I've been reading it for about the last six months, and it's the greatest thing I've found in years! Anyway, I just wanted to cast an idea out into the stream and see whether people agree or disagree with it about what makes KC so special. I think that KC embodies some of the best aspects of classical, jazz, and rock music: the complexity, virtuosity, and longevity of classical, the improvisation of jazz, and the emotional oomph of rock music ("putting the boot in"). IMO, Some of us who grew up and cut our teeth on progressive rock and later moved primarily to classical always missed the primal emotional power of rock, and I think KC is the perfect bridge between(pun intended - sorry) those two worlds. I'm going to fly to Washington and NY to see them this year if they don't come closer to Atlanta! I WILL NOT MISS seeing them live again. Good thing that CD's won't wear through, or my copy of _Great Deceiver_ would be tissue thin now! jNf [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 15:52:01 -0500 From: sarthur at lutece dot rutgers dot edu (Stephen Arthur) Subject: kc tour are tickets on sale now for the North American leg of the tour or have just the dates and locations been announced? steve [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Elephant Talk Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:38:36 +1030 From: Francis Vaughan A couple of small followups. Jeremy S Weissenburger wrote: > I am surprised that there is so much fervor in trying to > find the "USA" CD. All of the tracks (except "Asbury Park") were taken > from the Providence show that is on the GD Box Set. And Asbury park is on > "Frame By Frame." True, and I for one was more than a litle pleased that this is true. I had expended quite a bit of effort trying to locate a USA CD. (I have it on vinyl, actually I have all KC on vinyl, and everything bar Earthbound on CD as well.) However, Asbury Park rates as one of my all time favorite tracks, I bought Frame By Frame to get that one track, I had everything else on CD already. Such is life. Jeremy Keens wrote about Rimitti: sidi mansour. He notes a couple of cute things. The cover is emblasoned with "Features: Robert Fripp, Flea and East Bay Ray" Curiously only East Bay Ray is deemed so obscure that a paranthetic remark is needed to credit him with former membership of the Dead Kenedys. Fripp even gets billing above Flea. A very curious recording, I have only listened to it twice so far. It does rather grow on one, perhaps as the ear becomes attuned to the different melodic and sonic charater. The Frippertronics meld startlingly well with the music, and East Bay Ray's blistering style also is curiously right. Flea's bass is, as always, simply astounding. It is a pity that the contributions were not more integrated, each of the featured artists simply adding their input to a single track, and it would appear simply recorded in a seperate studio at a different time. to have actually had them playing together with the ensemble would have been something to belold. Udo Dzierzanowski posts the tour dates: I hate that. Living in the antipodies we seem destined to never see a tour. Francis Vaughan c/o Department of Computer Science _--_|\ Phone: +61 8 303 5592 University of Adelaide / \ Fax: +61 8 303 4366 Adelaide 5005 \_.--*_/ Home: +61 8 364 2649 Australia v Mobile: 041 472 6247 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 22:11:13 -0500 From: KB305 at aol dot com Subject: Thrak is coming, etc I've just returned from NARM- the convention of the National Association of Record Merchandisers, where I learned the following: The release date for Thrak has been pushed back three weeks to April 25. Saw a lovely color promo photo which I was unable to steal from the Virgin Records suite. Also, Fripp offered a 2-CD set of live music from the recent concerts in Argentina to Virgin, but they passed. It will be released on the Discipline label, which is distributed independently by AEC music distribution; they distributed VROOOM to retail. Those of you who found VROOOM in a store rather than by mail order should be able to get the live CD from that same sto re. The company I work for is connected with AEC, so I have some inside knowledge here-- when I get a release date, or an advance copy or anything useful, I will post it to ET Kevin [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 13:14:23 GMT From: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com (Clive Backham) Subject: Re: ET #170 Responses to things in ET #170: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." wrote: >In that same vein, I am surprised that there is so much fervor in trying to >find the "USA" CD. All of the tracks (except "Asbury Park") were taken >from the Providence show that is on the GD Box Set. And Asbury park is on >"Frame By Frame." Why, when I own DE versions of all the albums, should I be expected to buy "Frame by Frame"? Let's face it, "Asbury Park" is the highlight cut on "USA" (obviously Mr. Fripp also thinks so, since he selected it for inclusion on "Frame by Frame"), and I for one would dearly like it on CD, but I'm damned if I'll pay 50 quid for the priviledge. I have written to Mr. Fripp, asking whether it would be possible to release the live disc from Frame by Frame as a single CD, but have as yet received no reply (hardly surprising given his current workload). goneal at freenet dot vcu dot edu (Gene O'Neal) wrote: >one more thing, Toyah related: > >just purchased two 45's of her's hope somebody could shed some light on >please. > >"I want to be Free" B-side: "Walkie-Talkie" & "Alien" Safari label SAFE 34 >both side A & Walkie are written by wilcox/bogen and other w/b/glocken >regretably no date can anybody help out? along with no mention of an album >the single is from or going to be from. >the other is a picture 45 IEYA (wilcox/bush/bogen) B-side: Helium Song >(Space Walking) (wilcox/bush) SAFE P28 1980 from "the Blue Meaning" i have >no clue if Fripp is on it or not "I want to be free" is the opening track from the album "Anthem", which would be from around 1979. Toyah at the time of these albums was a post-punk artist; I'm pretty sure she had not met Fripp at the time. BTW, in the late 70's and early 80's, Toyah was a fairly major act in the UK; certainly a lot bigger than King Crimson. She's a fairly well-loved character in the UK: the radical teenage dropout who's made amends and become a respectable actress. Clive Backham McDonnell Information Systems, UK email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 07:59:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher Of The Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: Bruford's worth In ET 170, Nadav N. Caine says of Bruford: >...I must state that I would have had him replaced with someone else...I >I wonder why he didn't do this --get Marotta or someone. I think most of the people on this list (especially drummers and Bruford lovers) will agree that King Crimson would not be King Crimson without Bruford. As far as I'm concerned, he is just as important and pivotal a player as Fripp ever was. Besides, I'm not a big fan of Fripp's domination approach to the band. I'd rather imagine the six members of King Crimson working alongside each other, rather than in the form of some hierarchy. As far as Marotta is concerned, I think it's dangerous to even suggest that it would be a simple matter to replace Bruford with Marotta. Marotta's drumming is adequate, but it is bland and lifeless compared to Bill's. JPM [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:03:25 -0500 (EST) From: Ashley Collins Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #170 > From: stephen white > Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #169 > > Please! I was aware that the price was higher than normal when I bought the > signed copies of Vroom, 1000 Years, and 1999, but I was happy to support > the works of my favourite artists. I would quite happily have paid much > more. > > I can't believe the number of people complaining about the cost of a > CD. Who cares about $14.99! If they ask me for $100, I'll send it to them > without asking for anything in return. The pleasure they've given me is > well worth the money, and I only wish I could offer more. > MOST of us wish we could afford to offer more! Unfortunately, for some of us (I haven't paid that much attention to the addresses of posters, but I'm sure a good many of them end in .edu) $14.99 is just a bit out of our budget, much less $100. I'm not flaming you, because I can see where you're coming from, but the reality is that a lot of us are on tight budgets and have to be careful what we spend our hard-earned cash on. Having said that, I spent my $22.99 on an autographed copy of VROOOM, and is WAS worth every penny. Ashley Collins acollins at CapAccess dot org [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: KC tour dates Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 16:12:46 EST From: Michael Murphy In the latest Discipline, Watcher Of The Skies (John P Mohan) wrote: > Subject: KC in the Midwest > > Thanks to Scott T. Anderson for bringing up the Midwest amidst recent pleas > in ET for KC to play certain areas. The Midwest is a lucrative concert > region and should by no means be ignored. I am not familiar with how well > KC or its members have favored the area in past tours. But Chicago, > Minneapolis, Kansas City, and even smaller cities like Iowa City would > certainly draw sufficient crowds. Similarly, it appears they're ignoring the entire southern half of the country. That's how it looks, from the recently posted list of dates for the US tour. I don't know how KC or its members feel about this area, but i can't imagine that there aren't at least a few big cities they would do well at, like Atlanta. (I picked on Atlanta, in particular, because it seems that it is often the farthest south many larger acts go, missing Florida entirely; on the other hand, some major acts DO come all the way to Florida, and there are plenty of cities with places to put on big shows such as Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Orlando). To be honest, i was kinda expecting them to come only as far south as Atlanta, and i was fully prepared to have to drive up there some weekend to catch them. But since they're apparently not coming any farther south than Washington, DC, it looks like i am NOT going to be able to see them this tour!! Please, if anyone has any contact (direct or indirect) with the band i'd REALLY appreciate it if they could mention something to them. There ARE plenty of KC fans in the "bottom half" of the the United States, i suspect! Why would a "US tour" want to ignore that? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 17:35:14 -0500 From: sarthur at lutece dot rutgers dot edu (Stephen Arthur) Subject: another VROOOM review this review comes via 'the standard fine print' king crimson, VROOOM ep, Discipline records usually when a band "reunites" ten or so years after they've broken up, they'll put out a lame-assed unplugged album and follow it up with a stadium tour where you have to pay $40.00 for nosebleed seats. The band memebers then go on to say that they were on "hiatus" and claim that they never broke up despite years of bad mouthing each other in the press. The sad thing is that the public seems to enjoy this sort of nostalgia. instead of finding new bands that are as exciting and innovative as the "reunited" bands were back before they needed rogaine. fortunately, the reunited king crimson has no interest in reliving the past. actually, expanded is a better term to use than reunited. the 90's edition of crimson is a "double triio" consisting of 80's members robert fripp and adrain belew (guitars), tony levin (stick and bass), and bill bruford (drums), plus newcomers trey gunn (stick) and pat mastelloto (drums). VROOOM is fripp and company's way of letting the world know what they're up to while they're busy prepping for their full length album. the music on this 31 minute ep sounds like a quirky, paranoid, red and discipline era king crimson. the band veers from the dense, almost industrial, thrashing of the improvised "thrak" to the understated lyrical beauty of the ballad, "one time." the blazing weirdness of "cage" will remind younger listeners of primus but the reverse is actually true. (compare crimson's 1981 song "elephant talk" with primus's "jerry was a race car driver.") those afraid of never-ending solos need not worry. soloing is deemphasized while iimprovisation is encouraged. VROOOM will have you spending endless hours working out the interweaving guitars of fripp and belew and the polyrhythmic interaction of bruford and mastellso's drumming with the low-tech punk grunge aestheitc now in vogue, its refreshing to know that there's a band out there that's defiantly high-tech and unafraid of wearing its virtuousity on their sleeves, although they do share punk's anti-corporate/d.i.y. aesthetic. check out the copyright statement on the back of the cd: "discipline accepts no reson for artists to give away such copyright interests in their work by virtue of a 'commom practice' which is out of tune with the time, was always questionable and is now indefensible." who'd have thought that a ruunited art-rock group from the late sixties would sound more modern and menacing than most 90's "alternative" groups? strap yourselves in and let king crimson speed you out of the 70's drenched airwaves of today and into the 21st century. VROOOM indeed. howard shih (not much new here, sa) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 01:25:14 +0200 From: j at vrooom dot pp dot fi (Jukka Kukkonen) Subject: WIRED on VROOOM Let me briefly quote Dean Suzuki (WIRED, March 1995): "To the cheers of long-standing fans and adventurous listeners, King Crimson has again reunited. Of all the progressive rock groups...perhaps only KC has remained at the vanguard - Genesis is a bloated pop band; Yes and ELP mere shadows of their former selves...But KC has managed to endure as a sporadically constant entity that continues to explore new musical territory...Here, they play with the unabashed abandon and ferocity found on their 1974 album, Red, combined with hints of the tight, updated sound characterizing their 80's releases. 'Vrooom' and 'Thrak' feature svage, angular riffs in irregular meter, layered atop polyrhythmic, polymetric beds, and bonecrunching timbres...what is striking is not the histrionic departures of individual players, but the ensemble's musicianship and the unity of spirit that takes center stage. Make no mistake, the band is comprised of six virtuosi, and there are ample solo opportunities, but each one resists fighting for a place in the spotlight, and submits instead to a synergistic, musical whole. This is roaring, exhilarating brand of avant rock. It goes for the jugular, and nails it." Well, I couldn't agree more with WIRED. What a pity that Crimson has never visited us here in Scandinavia, and it seems there have no plans to do so in the near future. There was a Frippertronics gig in Stockholm (Sweden) in May 1979 - maybe we could at least have a little live performance of Soundscapes, please? Let's keep on lurkin'...NOT! \|/ Virtually Yours, (@ @) -------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------ jukka Kukkonen \ /.'''\ /''\ /''\ /''\ |\ /| Kulmakatu 2G67 \ / | / | || || || \ / | 00170 HELSINKI \ / |---\ | || || || \/ | Suomi- FINLAND \/ | \ \__/ \__/ \__/ | | j at vrooom dot pp dot fi >> Internauts, start your engines... 8-) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 18:07:06 -0800 From: vance at netcom dot com (Vance Gloster) Subject: Review of Vrooom The March issue of Wired magazine (only a year or two old and already one of the most successful publications around) featured a review of King Crimson's Vrooom CD. They review 9 audio CDs per month, and one is given top billing. Vrooom got it. This publication rarely gushes about audio CDs, but it did about this one. The final paragraph is as follows: While many of the pieces are instrumental and improvisational, what is striking is not the histrionic departures of individual players, but the ensemble's musicianship and the unity of spirit that takes center stage. Make no mistake, the band is comprised of six virtuosi, and there are ample solo opportunities, but each one resists fighting for a place in the spotlight, and submits instead to a synergistic, musical whole. This is a roaring, exhilirating brand of avant rock. It goes for the jugular and nails it. All the members and their instruments are named. If anyone has managed not to hear the CD, Wired gives you a chance if you are in the US. They have a toll line to listen to excerpts from albums they have reviewed. It is 1-900-454-3277. The code for Vrooom is 1252 (you will need this code to tell it which album you want to listen to). The toll line is 95 cents per minute, and Vrooom will be available on it until May 1. -Vance Gloster vance at netcom dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:39:25 -0500 From: James Peele Subject: Re: Why not Rush? I love KC, but RUSH is my absolute favorite band as well. I think each band has something completely different to offer to the music community and it is difficult to compare the two groups. [ OK folks, on that note could I respectfully request that we lay the Rush thread to rest as far as ET is concerned. Surely there's a xanadu-talk list somewhere? :-) Thanks -- Toby ] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:03:26 -0600 From: gandalf at bga dot com (gandalf) Subject: ET:Address for KC to beg for tourdates I, as I'm sure, along with others here in Texas, we'd like to see King Crimson play. The dates posted in ET #170 show they are coming nowhere close. I'd like to add my vote along with all on KC fans in this region of the US for a show closer to this area. /^\ | gandalf at realtime dot net |======|======| ------|/-----#------|-----------------------|------|------|--------------- -----/|-----------(0)-----\---------------(0)----(0)------|--------------- ----/-|~\-----------------/-------^v|-------------------(0)--------------- ----\-|-/---------(0)----v>---------/------------------------------------- -----~|~----------(0)-----^---------------(0)----(0)---------------------- (o) | Music is |, | ~ | Virtual || | | Noise |/ | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on: ftp.cs.man.ac.uk, in /pub/toby/elephant-talk, and at the USA mirror site: ftp.qualcomm.com, in /pub/et. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard, Elephant Talk editor. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]