Elephant Talk #167 (as text)
3 February 1995
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 15:10:17 +0600 (CST)
From: Chris Pardua <pardua at mc dot edu>
Wow. I am amazed and delighted at the number of responses on my _Islands_
question, both personal and public! Thanks!
It's great to be able to post a question like that on here and not suffer
flames from an overzealous reader with the final say on KC. I run into
this all the time on the Rush NMS digest, and I've noticed a remarkable
difference in the ET digest in tone, attitude, and (risking a flame)
intellect. Qualify that: display of intellect. I don't know if the
average age or mentality of the ET readers (and KC listeners) is higher or
more advanced or whatever, and I'm not going to shout down at the Rush
digest over it, but darn it, there's a difference and I'm grateful for it!
Even the little welcome note Toby sent along with my subscription to ET was
enough to make me choke on my coffee :)
Like the saying goes, it's the littlest things that make the biggest
differences. Thanks so much for all your help--I will continue reading as
long as I have this account to do it on (and may even unsubscribe to the
NMS!!! Who knows?). I haven't bought _Islands_ yet, but it's on the list
(as is everything else I can get my hands on).
Chris Pardua "Wandering between two worlds, one dead,
pardua at mc dot edu The other powerless to be born"--Matthew Arnold
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 15:36:41 -0600 (CST)
From: GOOSENMK at ctrvax dot Vanderbilt dot Edu
Subject: #166--Islands, Wire
Various Elaphant Talk subjects...
> In my opinion, "Islands" is one of the best KC records - second, perhaps,
> only to "Lizard", if they can at all be compared, that is. The only
> I expect, though, many folks to disagree.
Count me as one of those folks. Of the early stuff, I like _Islands_ best
but the balance of thunderous power and liquid grace that was KC Mark II
(i.e., _Starless_, _Red_, the awesome live stuff on _The Great Deceiver_)
and the telekinesis of KC III (Fripp/Bruford/Levin/Belew) easily blow it
away. But hey, I'm a child of the late '70s and early '80s; my pair of 38
year-old friends named Dan both love the early Crimson best whereas I
always find it dated and bombastic, despite the high level of playing.
Someone else (oops, just deleted the name) was talking about Wire:
> Oh, and as a recommendation, I would like to suggest Wire's album '154.'
> Their sound is a sort of raw, stripped down post-punk sort of sound but
> there is a very unique sensibility at work that reminds me alternately of
> the 80's King Crimson (without the virtuosity, but with a raw garage-band
> sort of energy) and of the late 60's (Piper at the Gates of Dawn) Pink
Can't see the Pink Floyd influence at all, not at all, but I too would
recommend Wire to KC fans. And for fans of the later KC, I would recommend
the later version of Wire. Wire existed in two distinct incarnations
though with the same personnel both times--the neo-punk version of 1977-81
(punk in minimalism and energy but unlike punk abstract rather than
political lyrics and odd time signatures and rhythms rather than basic 4/4)
and the more synth/propulsive line-up that reformed in 1986. I love both
versions of Wire but the latter one to me is the most impressive--more like
plastic arts than music at times, hanging one sound at one part of the
room, another sound in a corner at another location, but all merging into a
comprehensive whole. I can't think of another group with as keen an
understanding of sound itself. A good place for anyone to start would be
the recent compilation _The A-List_ which is a best-of for the later Wire
material, and includes such essentials as "Ahead," "Feed Me"--and you
thought "Thrak" was scary!, "The Boiling Boy," and "The Finest Drops."
From: Nadav Noah Caine <nadav at leland dot Stanford dot EDU>
Subject: Jerry Marotta & KC
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 16:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Thanks for all the Sara Lee responses, especially Mr. Levin. He, among
others mentioned that Jerry Marotta has been/is also playing with Indigo
Girls. I've always liked his work, and a couple of years ago, a
confidential source in the Village (NYC) told me that Crimson was reforming
with Marotta on drums. (Bruford is brilliant, but has been unhappy with a
supportive role, it has often been reported, such as in Fripp's diary in
the last Elephant Talk.) My source's report came from a telephone call (as
we spoke) with a member of the band. Does anybody know what happened to
the Marotta plan for KC?
P.S. Several wrote to me asking whether the Gang of 4's "Entertainment"
was available on CD. It just came out this month (combined with an EP)!
- Nadav Caine
"It is hard to struggle with one's heart's desire.
It will pay with soul for what it craves." - Heraclitus
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 20:30:54 -0500
From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #166
> From: pvallado at waynesworld dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid)
> Subject: Why Not Holdsworth?
> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 16:14:27 -0800 (PST)
> Why not Holdsworth? Because being a guitar player in King
> Crimson requires a willingness to play rhythm guitar as well as
> leads. Holdsworth does not like the sound of himself strumming
> the guitar. While he has demonstrated at least competency in
> basic funk styles and rock rhythm guitar, he is simply not
> interested in playing rhythm guitar. I'm not putting him down,
> I rather like him myself; but his personal style simply would
> not fit with the rest of the band. He'd end up playing lead
> guitar all the time, which would get old fast with King
I don't think this is an accurate assessment of AH. I remember some time
back that one reason AH was so dissatisfied with the kind of work he was
offered as a session player was that people only wanted leads, and he was
interested in more chords and ensemble playing. The thing is, he has a very
distinctive chordal style; not "rhythm" playing in a traditional sense, but
a substantial part of his guitar style apart from his soloing.
In a way, this would make him an ideal KC player - he'd bring in a flavor
unlike any other musician, and be a clear contrast to Fripp. However, AH's
jazz leanings are contrary to the personality Fripp seems to envisage for
the band as a whole, and it's here where I really see it not working. I
don't think what AH wants to do is anything like what KC is about. It could
be a fascinating combination, but I don't see it ever happening. (I'd love
to be wrong!)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 20:39:21 -0500
From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #166
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 20:53:11 -0500
> From: Diaphanus at aol dot com
> Subject: misc
> I think that DS's 'Gone to Earth' is eponymous...
I think you should get out your dictionary and look up "eponymous."
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 20:50:07 -0500
From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #166
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:59:23 -0800
> From: msg at fiji dot asd dot sgi dot com (Mark Grossman)
> Subject: Re: Why not Holdsworth?
> I heard a long time ago that he had a tremendous ego...that he
> considers himself the greatest guitar player in the universe.
> If that's true, I'd imagine he'd have a hard time in a group
> with another strong guitarist or two....
I have no idea where you heard this, but anyone I know whose ever met AH or
read any of his interviews knows this is far from the truth. He is a
relentless perfectionist, but also exceedingly humble. If anything, I
sometimes think it might behoove him to take his stature as one of the
greatest musicians of all time a bit more to heart. It might have a
relaxing effect. :)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 23:47:56 -0500
From: KB305 at aol dot com
Virgin Records has set a street date of Tuesday, April 4 for King Crimson's
"Thrak". Just thought you'd like to know.
From: ceco at mail dot utexas dot edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 22:57:39 -0600
Subject: King Crimson's USA live album...
In ET #166 C. Mortensen <morc at hpslz15 dot cern dot ch> wrote:
> All the fuss about people that doesn't like Islands amazes me, to me it's
> the best KC album. Whenever I'm to recommend a Crimson album to a newcomer
> it has always been Islands and it has never failed, they get hooked. A few
> tracks on the album are a bit more "commercial" (read: accessible) than
> usual 'The letters' and 'Ladies on the road', but that definitely does NOT
> make them bad. The album also contains the all-time pearl 'Sailors tale'.
> And now I'm at it, there's been so much talk about Earthbound and how hard it
> is to get hold of, but what about the other live album USA. I've been trying for
> more than 5 years to get my hands on that one, but haven't succeded yet. Can it
> be that it's just not available in Europe, or have I been unfortunate.
It's funny that you should mention that. I had often wondered why USA was
apparently unavailable on cd. I have seen cassettes (I had one that I got
in a bargain-bin, but I lost it) of it but I had never seen a cd until this
weekend. I was in Houston at a place called Soundwaves looking for a non
KC-related import, when all of a sudden I saw two copies of a USA cd in the
import section. They were about twenty-two dollars each, labeled as
European imports (made in Britain, I think they were) and I think that they
boasted 'bonus' tracks not on the original lp (although, I'm ashamed to
admit, I forget what those were.) Maybe you can get some kindly Houston KC
fan to pop over to Soundwaves and buy one to send to you. Good luck.
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 21:23:41 -0800
From: vance at netcom dot com (Vance Gloster)
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #166
In ET #166 pvallado at waynesworld dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) wrote:
> Why not Holdsworth? Because being a guitar player in King Crimson requires
> a willingness to play rhythm guitar as well as leads. Holdsworth does not
> like the sound of himself strumming the guitar. While he has demonstrated
> at least competency in basic funk styles and rock rhythm guitar, he is
> simply not interested in playing rhythm guitar. I'm not putting him down, I
> rather like him myself; but his personal style simply would not fit with
> the rest of the band. He'd end up playing lead guitar all the time, which
> would get old fast with King Crimson. Perhaps Chris Hoard, who actually
> witnessed a brief (non)encounter between the two can offer more insight.
The band UK in the late 70s originally had Holdsworth in it. The band
included Crimson veterans Bruford and Wetton. They had attempted to reform
KC, but Fripp was not interested at the time. Instead they got Holdsworth
and Eddie Jobson (Zappa alumnus on keyboards and electric violin). He
played a fair amount of rhythm. On his own albums he also plays a fair
amount of rhythm, but it is a different kind. He is interested in (to use
his term) "uncommon chords" while KC uses uncommon textures.
vance at netcom dot com
From: Jean Adams <jadams at mtu dot edu>
Subject: fripp,eno and stuff
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 0:45:56 EST
A few questions,
I've heard mention of The essential Fripp and Eno - could anybody mail me
the record company and numbers so I could try and get this. I tried to find
it in the Musicland catalog but as usual, it wasn't there.
I'm also happy to see DGM listing tour dates as available. June isn't so
far away, I hope it's the shrink wrap on the new cd's I'm smelling. Maybe
DGM will let us know when the new album is born.
Thanks to all-Jean jadams at mtu dot edu
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:53:24 +0100
From: Eric dot Rutten at irisa dot fr (Eric Rutten)
Subject: Re: Is Fripp on it? Re: John Wetton Solo Album?? [alt.music.progressive #46819]
------ Forwarded Article <3gcdga$ejg at ra dot lib dot ucalgary dot ca>
------ From bgjones at acs dot ucalgary dot ca (Brent Gordon Jones)
Eric Rutten (rutten at live dot irisa dot fr) wrote:
: In article <3g7a34$r9i at romulus dot rutgers dot edu>, kulberda at romulus dot rutgers dot edu (Ray Kulberda) writes:
: |> >Yeah, it was originally titled (I'm *not* making this up):
: |> > Voice Male
: |> >It's been retitled since, and I can't remember the new name.
: |> Actually it's "Voice MAIL" and has also been released as "Battle Lines".
: and is Fripp playing on it? if yes, audibly?
Fripp plays on I believe 1 track. The sounds on quiet track near
the end of the album are almost certainly Fripp
YOU MAY NOT RECALL THE MOMENT THAT YOU ASKED ME
BUT YOUR INVITATION WAS CLEAR
YOU'LL PRETEND YOU'VE NEVER MET ME BUT IT'S FAR TOO LATE
NOW I'M HERE
bgjones at acs dot ucalgary dot ca
------ End of Forwarded Article
Subject: Re: New instrumentation
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:34:10 EST
From: John Saylor <jsaylor at MIT dot EDU>
>I wondered what you all thought about the new instrumention of the band,
>how you think the music has changed over the years and what version of King
>Crimson most influenced your musical taste?
The idea of a double trio is quite nice, symmetrical &c. However, I would
like to see a violin [or even a multi-instrumentalist] instead of the
second stick [with no disrespect to T.Gunn]. Fripp Levin and Belew cover
quite a lot of ground [even when Tony is on bass] and the timbral change a
violin [or bass clarinet, or even- mellotron!] would bring to the group
sound would be a welcome addition in my book.
The Crimson that really got my blood boiling was Startless & Bible Black.
To be fair- Exposure was the record that lead me into a long association
with Fripp's music [actually Eno's Before and after Science, but I'm
drifting a long ways here], but Starless was the Crimson album that lit me
Now [after getting my terminal degree in music composition], I find I
really like the early stuff [In the Court to Islands]. Discipline was a
monster album for me [still is] but both Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair
left me cold. I was especially dissapointed in Lark's Toungues 3, since
both earlier tongues were so delicious.
And VROOM has yet to settle in my ears [since I can only listen to it in an
interrupted fashion now that I have a daughter requiring my attention]. I
like the last one on the CD [it requires the least attention], but the
others haven't penetrated yet. Cage seems weak and formulatic, a Thela Hun
Gingeet retread, but the jury's still out. I like to let it come to me
rather than forcing myself into it.
And thanks again to Toby for doing this in addition to his other work. I
think he said something about grading projects- like programming progects?
[ Yikes indeed -- Toby :-) ]
From: bjacobs at mintaka dot SDSU dot Edu (William J Jacobs)
Subject: RF Soundcapes in San Diego
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:42:23 -0800 (PST)
I attended Robert Fripp's concert in San Diego last Friday, and I thought
I'd review it for the folks of the list.
The show was billed as "Robert Fripp's Soundscape, the California Guitar
Trio, and Shree". I'm still not sure who Shree is, but I guess it must
have been RF plus the Trio playing Crafty tunes on acoustic guitars while
standing in a circle in the audience (much like in the RFSQ tour). If that
isn't it, then Shree didn't show up. If so, why the name Shree?
The show opened with one of the acoustic circles, and ended with two more.
They were quite well done, but also very quiet. If they were over 15 feet
away, they were difficult to hear. I was in the front row of the cheap
seats and I barely heard one of them; I'm certain the folks in back near
the bar's adding machine couldn't hear at least two of them.
Robert followed the opening with 2.5 soundscapes. I say two and a half
because his second one fizzled out along with some of his equipment just a
few minutes in. After this happened he gave a short speach, probably
explaining what went wrong. Only the first few rows heard what he said, so
I can't tell you for sure. The soundscapes were pretty good. I rather
liked the first and last ones of the evening particularly. But they didn't
hold the full attention of the audience. There was chatting throughout,
that only quieted down when the Trio came out. Which they did immediately
after Robert's first set.
The California Guitar Trio played 2 sets, plus an encore. Each containing
a tune from the RFSQ, and classical tune, and a rock or country piece. The
RFSQ pieces were played with one of the Trio using a bottleneck slide and a
heavily distorted tone. It gave the songs a sound very different from the
versions from their CD or the Quintet tour. I liked their version of "The
Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" which included some nice country style soloing
(perhaps even improv, it was tough to tell), but their Tocata and Fugue in
D Minor never rose above novelty value. Both these tunes are on their next
CD, _Invitation_. They gave out CD booklets, but didn't have any CD's to
sell. Perhaps they're not quite finished yet.
Robert played another set, with a couple more soundscapes. None of the sound-
scapes varied too far in structure from the ones on the CD. There seem to be
1. Those without a pulse or a melody line (1999 on the disc)
2. Those with a pulse, but no melody (2000 on the disc)
3. Those with an intermittent melody, but no pulse (2001 on the disc)
4. Short pulses of sound, instead of sustained background. (Interlude on the
Robert played one of each of these sorts in concert. He probably doesn't
think about them this way, but I've had a bit of ethnomusicological
training, so I can't help but do so. I suppose there are probably
soundscapes that evolved both melody and pulse, but that turns them into a
tune, not a soundscape. (Actually, they all have tunes if you hold down
the fast forward button.) One interesting point is that the soundscapes
are played half by guitar, and half by fiddling with knobs on Robert's
sound equipment. Sometimes, Robert would put down the guitar and just turn
knobs for the second half of a piece. Even that wasn't necessary, the last
soundscape went on for several minutes after Robert left the stage.
On the whole, the audience was less than enthused. The applause that
brught out the first encore was half-hearted and late to start. After
that, the lights stayed down long enough that I suspected another encore
was planned, but only one guy kept applauding while the rest headed for the
door. I suppose I have to agree with the crowd. The show was a bit to
cerebral for me. Every- thing was interesting, but nothing really grabbed
me until after the show, when the soundman put on _Vrooom_. That really
makes me look forward to the King Crimson tour.
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 23:42:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: Watcher Of The Skies <MOHANJP at AC dot GRIN dot EDU> (John P Mohan)
>Overall, you have to at least HEAR "Islands" and some point. Don't get it
>before you get other, more important KC stuff. Actually, I like it better
>than "Beat" (my least favorite KC album).
It's funny that this should come up, but lately _Beat_ has gotten heavy
rotation in my player, and I've been thinking about it as a complete work,
conceptually and otherwise.
I would then, of course, not list it as my least favorite KC album. I'm not
going to get into that argument, as I've not heard all the KC albums yet.
But anyway, back to _Beat_. About a year or so ago, someone posted about
the album's references to the _Beat_ genre and the various correlations
between songs and authors, etc. As I am not too familiar with the genre,
I'm walking in the dark here, but...
All in all, I've noticed one consistent theme on the album: that of travel,
being transient, leaving and arriving and being away from familiarity and
security. "Neal & Jack & Me", "Waiting Man", "Neurotica" - these have
definite references to travel and arriving in new places - while other
songs, like "Heartbeat" and "Two Hands" deal with the more intimate
intricacies of relationships. "The Howler" leaves me puzzled, and
"Requiem" is just a classic KC instrumental: dark and final, a good end for
the album. That leaves "Sartori In Tangier", which has gotten more of my
attention than any other song on _Beat_.
Sartori (also spelled "satori") is a spiritual experience, a catharsis.
This song traces the general path of such an experience, of achieving a
sublime reality and leaving one's imperfect everyday environment behind.
The song's first main section is very percussive and angular, quite
agressive. Perhaps suggesting the all-too-real surroundings of our
everyday existence. Then, the song changes feel: notes become more
sustained and legato, and the drums become less accented. Sometime in the
middle of this second section (about 2:15, I believe) the chord changes,
and a very beautiful musical effect is achieved (I think everyone knows the
spot I'm talking about). It's very ambient, cosmic, suggesting the height
of this cathartic experience. Then the song goes back to the original
theme, suggesting a return to earthly surroundings.
Well, I've gotten a little carried away now, and a little embarrassed by
my somewhat self-indulgent post, but I figured that there must be other
_Beat_ fans out there who might have some ruminations of their own.
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: MCNICHOT at cgs dot edu
Subject: Fripp in LA
Well, just coming down from seeing Robert Fripp and the California Guitar
Trio three times here in L.A. in the last week. You see, unlike Seattle,
musicians of quality like to play here.Any way, now that I got the jab in,
I will give a short review of the three shows and other juicy tidbits,
knowing others will fill in the blanks,.The first time was at Tower records
on sunset, and after a little sound problems There was Fripp sitting there
three feet away ready to go. I didn't realize he was totally digital these
days and even though he was still surrounded by pedals the Frippatronics
was induced by a large black cube on his side on the ground. He began with
a glance at the entire crowd and then generated some twisted notes into a
full on Hell bent orchestra of Siren proportion. Then some students came
out and played a couple of tunes. These guys were straight from Guitarcraft
101 and as Fripp said, they had only been togethter for four days so they
were pretty good for that alowence. Then Fripp did two more blistering
soundscapes and was joined by the CGT who did a few rippers including Kan
Non power while Fripp meditated on his stool and didn't play. Fripp then
did two more soundscapes and the music was done.He then said(none of what I
say Fripp said is a direct quote but some key phrases are the same)that it
was rare for an audience and performer to be so close and wondered if
anyone had any questions. I asked about his tuning and whether when he
played with others they or he had to change his tuning. He told me I asked
about five questions s and told me to pick one for which I daid said the
last one. He then smiled and said Adrian plays in his tuning and"I play in
mine." a couple other questions were does he have outside inspiration for
the Soundscapes he does. He said yes was the short anwser and thought for a
bit abd said have you ever had anyone close to you die before? Also someone
asked if he still reads Gurdjieff and Bennett to which he replied he did
not know who these people were if that answers the question? There were
other questions and then Robert took some time to sign things. He also
showed the audience the DAT that had the new finished C KC album on it and
said it would be out in mid-April.
The next time I saw him was at the House of Blues which is a great Venue
just not for Frippertronics maybe. It seemed as if they have a regular
crowd that comes to party regardless of who nwas playing and thus, during
the quieter times there were people yelling and a general feeling of
booze fuelled mahem. Yet the soundscapes were wonderfull and TCGT was
amazing. Also, after the show, Fripp and the CGT walked around the venue
with their axes and played all acoustic tunes fir different groups
before escaping up the elevator. All in all a good show but at the begginning
ng Robert seemed disappointed at the people takinfg Flash pictures. Then I saw him saw him at the Coach House in San Juan Capistrano and this by far was the
e most intense. The sound scapes took on a feel a I had not heard the
other times and seemed to go much deeper. I don't know how Robert felt from
where he sat, but it seemed as if the audience could not totally appreciate
his work but loved the CGT. None the less, on that night his stuff was
amazing. The real treat was that afterwords they played a couple of new KC
tunes off the DAT mentioned earlier which knocked me off my seat. But, i
wont describe further as too allow for some suprise in April. I will only
say that one of them was a re-worked Vrooom that was so tight it bound
up my colon. Oh, he also said that the new album would be called Thrak.
The shows were all amazing and Mr. Fripp was delightful to his adoring
fans. I also found out that while they were recording the new album in
England Levin and Gunn spent quite a bit of time monitoring the various
Crimson discussions on the net during brakes. Pretty cool.Thanks to those
providing concert dates. I hope the trend woill continue when someone has
dates here in the U.S. Over. mcnichot
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 14:33:56 GMT
From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk
Subject: Q mag review of "Vroom" and String "Quartet"
Honest, the typos are theirs, not mine!
As a long-term reader of Q, this review says exactly what I thought it
(Q has a 5-star rating system; ** means something like "can do better, be
wary", and *** usually means "good in parts, and if you like this sort of
stuff, you'll probably quite like it". I forget how Q describes their star
ratings, but that's my experience.)
DISCIPLINE DGM 004 **
ROBERT FRIPP STRING QUARTET [sic again! (Page/Plant?:-)]
The Bridge Between
DISCIPLINE DGM 93032 ***
The logic of releasing two albums prominently featuring The Frippatollah in
the same month may seem questionable but it ensured that a few people's
Yuletide resounded to knotty music. The Crimson album is the first to
feature the new "double trio" configuration and begins splendidly with the
grindingly modern title track before losing its footing with a couple of
rather silly vocal tracks with irritating lyrics. Not bad though, on the
whole, if a little short, and the two closing tracks evince the right mood
of stern-jawed lack of compromise.
The String Quintet [right this time!] disc is arguably easier on the ear;
the work of an occasional guitar ensemble, it does have a couple of
pleasing Bach inventions and an energetic romp called Bicycling To
Afghanistan but the arch gloominess of the ludicrously titled Threnody For
Souls In Torment prevents one leaping to the repeat button with alacrity.
[review by Stuart Maconie]
Dr. Brian Ritchie, Systems Engineering Division,
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Chilton, DIDCOT, Oxon, UK
WWW URL: http://web.inf.rl.ac.uk/people/br/contact.html
Date: 31 Jan 95 09:49:42 EST
From: Suntower Systems <70242 dot 1520 at compuserve dot com>
Subject: Sources For Videos (3rd x)
I have been looking for videos fo the 1980's version of KC. The only one of
I have found for sale has been a japanese concert for which my local record
store wants ~94.00 US.
Can someone point out some other more reasonable sources.
-I am not really a collector so I don't have a lot to trade.
-Are there some (heavens, and sorry R.F.!) bootlegsof reasonable quality I
could obtain from some honest soul?
-Are there independent companies that put out 'legal' tapes.
I have obtained videos for lots of groups I thought even more 'esoteric' than
KC. Is the market for KC tapes simply not there, or are there 'darker' forces
Let Me Know, I Am All A Quiver With Anticipation.
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 17:46:57 GMT
From: Rupert Loydell <RML at madbear dot demon dot co dot uk>
Has it been mentioned that RF plays on the last Iona cd? some very nice
frippertronics in the celtic ambient fog. (nick beggs is in there too - a
very under-rated bass/stick player once he got away from kajagoogoo!)
From: JDEhm at eworld dot com
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 15:32:11 PST
Subject: Thanks for Island Info.
Just wanted to send a quick note of thanks to Scott T. Anderson for
unintentionally answering some of my questions about _Islands_.
Now I know that the studio/orchestra stuff at the end of the CD is supposed
to be there and that the Definitive Edition does not contain it. I am only
left wondering if this studio/orchestra stuff was at the end of the actual
(vinyl) album. I recollect that it wasn't, but it was many years ago that I
had the album to listen to.
And Scott, at least we see eye to eye about _Beat_.
"Peace is a dawn on a day without end"
JD Ehm @ eworld.com
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:07:57 +0000
From: E dot Roos at BURO dot kun dot nl
Subject: KC in The Hague
>From: Udo Dzierzanowski <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com>
>Subject: KC confirmed tourdates
King Crimson - Confirmed Itinerary 1995
15 May Congresgebouw, Amsterdam
The Congresgebouw is in The Hague. And I have tickets for the 5th row!!!
Any ET-readers that I can meet there?
From: <fdc at simcorp dot dk> (Frank Carvalho )
Subject: VROOOM in Denmark.
Date: Tue Jan 31 10:24:02 1995
To Toby: Sorry! my finger hit 'send' too early. Delete the
previous one please!
I am a ET follower in Denmark. It has been a while now since the first
reviews of VROOM started to show up on my screen, and ever since then I've
been trying to get my hands on a copy. This was not entirely easy. When I
first asked for it, two-three months ago, they had not even heard about it
at all. A few weeks later they had heard about it, but had never seen
it. The third time they tried to phone the distributor to find out why it
had not been released yet, and the answer was something very strange about
the record company not wanting to release the disc in Denmark at all. The
people in the shop were very kind and helpful, but it seems that the
distributor or the record company wanted to have a special policy in
Denmark, such that KC fans should not have this disc. Now I started to get
upset about the whole thing, The guy in the shop talked the distributor
into investigating it further, and the next time I talked to them, the
salesman had been around with a promotional copy of VROOOM. My shop wanted
to order it and that was OK really. But it turned out that now VROOOM was
out of print! The disc was out of print even before it was ever released!
Now after another one and a half month, it finally hit the racks, but I
thing I have phoned the shop at least ten times to make them raise some
hell for the company. I think the market mechanisms stink sometimes. I wish
somebody could explain the meaning of all this.
But VROOM was really worth waiting for. It is really funny. I kind of knew
what I could expect to hear even before I heard the disc, because of the
numerous reviews here in ET. I'll stick to making a few comments to other
reviews. The first few seconds of VROOM sound exactly as if they were
recorded for the album Starless and Bible Black. Those seconds may be
responsible for the 'Back to the Red era' debate. The debate about Larks
Tongues in Aspic part IV was in the back of my mind when I heard VROOOM,
and I must say that LTiA pt.IV must be synonymous with the tune VROOM. It's
got all the ingredients of the previous LTiAs: It starts with a surprise
heavy guitar riff a la LTiA pt.I and II and like both pt.I and II it flips
between heavy riff and quiet passage (remember Cross violin in pt.I and the
quiet playing in pt. II). The second half, often refered to as Beatlesque,
is really very much like the end of pt.III, don't you agree? Thrak does
have a beat the whole way through!
e-mail: fdc at simcorp dot dk
From: lebiger at informatik dot uni-frankfurt dot de
Subject: RE: How godlike are stick players?
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:41:29 +0100 (MEZ)
In ET#161 somebody (Walter Harley) asked about the live performing skills
of stick players. Playing bass and synthesizer myself, I can't tell from
personal experience, but I had the chance to catch MICHAEL GOSH at the
GRINGOS in Heidelberg on the 13. of January. He was the kind of
"One-Man-Band" you expect from a stick player. Though lacking the 'normal'
percussion parts, he made up for it with the bass parts he played. Or as he
put it : " My left hand is the bass player, my right plays guitar, my
troath is the singer and everything put together sounds groovy, funky and
jazzy." Well, that's about right.
Another thing: Duesseldorf 7.5. !!!! Be there or be ..... absent ?!!! ;-)
- GOD is REAL ------ unless declared INTEGER --------------------
From: "Kerns, Steven R - SUN7" <cheska at teleport dot com>
Subject: Summers/Fripp interview Part I
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 06:46:00 PST
The following is Part 1 an interview with Andy Summers and Robert Fripp
conducted in 1984 or 1985. I have had this on audio tape for ten years and
forgot about it until I read some of the other interview transcripts in the
archived digests. If anyone wants a copy, I am sure we can work out a
trade. The interview was recorded from WHFS 99.1 in Annapolis/Baltimore.
I have done the best job that I could to get down their comments verbatim.
As a consequence, some of the text is hard to read, since the participants
are occasionally talking at the same time. I considered editing the
confusing parts, but decided that you, the reader, can do just as good a
job as I can do! The words in parenthesis are mine and are intended to add
description and clarity. Finally, since I live in Oregon, I am unfamiliar
with some of the places that Fripp & Summers refer to. My apologies to
anybody's hometown whose spelling I have butchered! :)
Enjoy (it is kind of long)
[ Part 2 of this interview will appear in the next E.T. -- Toby ]
Song: "Begin the Day"
Robert Fripp: So would you like to describe what it is that's going on here
and where we are and when we are.
Vic Garbarini: A good point. Hmm, starting with who we are, my name is Vic
Garbarini and I am executive editor of Musician magazine. The fellow at
the opposite end of the large pink table, signing strange lithographs which
are about to become the cover of his new album, is Robert Fripp.
RF: Hello team.
VG: You can hear that pen scratching in the background.
RF: This is what is called art.
VG: Abstract art for those listening on the radio, but art nonetheless.
RF: I don't do these for a living, I do it for art's sake.
VG: And Art himself is not here, but in his place is young Andy Summers.
Andy Summers: Thank you
RF: Did you actually find the magazine with the article "Sex and the Rock
and Rollers" (?) in which you are, may I say, heavily featured? Did I tell
AS: Thank you for striking this low note at the beginning of this art
interview, Robert. I did and I am still here.
RF: What was your reaction to that comments in the article?
VG: Understandable. You two have just completed your second duet album
together. The Summers/Fripp album or Fripp/Summers album, depending on
which end of the alphabet...
AS: Or Frummers/Siff, Sipp/Frummers anyway you like.
VG: Exactly. Why would two people with such obvious problems as you two
have, decide to work together in this creative format?
RF: (in a funny accent amid much giggling) I couldn't find no one else that
would let me work with them, see, so I said to my mate Andy "Andy, let's go
down to Arnie's, let's go down to Arnie's hut and make us a record"
VG: Now, for those Americans listening in the college audience who wonder
why Robert is talking like this, I should say that one of the things I know
about these two is they come from the same part of Profidious (?) Albion.
That is, they come from the same county of England, being the county
Dorset. Now, is that a real Dorset accent we are hearing there?
AS: That is what's known as "guilding the lily".
RF: It is. Um, (in the same accent) I'd say "No, no, no". (back to normal
voice) And that is a real Dorset accent. John Wetton, who is now a member
of Asia, when he was fifteen or sixteen, and also living in Bournemouth and
in a band called Palmer-James, with Palmer-James would go off to country
lanes and show to each other from one side of the road to the other
(accent) "Awright, awright, goin well, awright"
AS: Wonderful music background they have together.
VG: Yes, I think people have to understand - they didn't have MTV in those
days, where that can be done for you. Um, so you both came from roughly
the same area down there, around Bournemouth.
AS: This is true.
VG: When did you meet each other, did you ever interlock as
musicians or in any other strange way?
RF : No, no I can tell you I haven't. Andy was working in Mins and I went
in for some... Mins was a music shop in Bournemouth, since bankrupt by the
most appallingly dinosauric policy. They had, a friend of mine was
managing it until they sold out shortly ago, they has a whole pile of
redundant, really awful, feeble, cheap organs.
AS: Well, we are all cursed with this, aren't we.
VG: I have to check that magazine for that, Andy.
RF: They used to do a lot of good business selling them to the middle-class
of Bournemouth. And the middle-class of Bournemouth either ran out of
money or improved it's taste or ran about new technology. Anyway, going
back to, well, Andy was there, I went in and asked him a question and he
was rude to me. Insouciant.
AS: This story continues to haunt me through the years.
RF: Well, you shouldn't have been so rude then.
AS: I know, but to pick up the story here, I was working at the Majestic
Hotel in the guitar seat, let's say working for the Hebrew fraternity of
Bournemouth. When I finally vacated to go to London, who should take my
place, but young Mister Fripp. Who, of course, was to go onto London and
assume much larger fame and fortune than I in the early term.
VG: And bigger shoes, if I remember.
AS: And bigger shoes.
VG: Yeah. One thing I have always been curious about. At that great time
of transition, now lost in the mists of history. What kind of tunes were
AS: Oh, that was just last year.
VG: What kind of tunes were you guys playing in the hotel?
RF: You share the ones you played, then I'll share the ones I played.
AS: I think we used to do Profidea, the Jewish National Anthem, and Happy
Birthday Sweet Sixteen. Those are the three I knew the chords of. The
rest I had to red-face on.
RF: I used to do all the Jolsons, the fast Jolsons and the slow Jolsons.
Hava Nagila. All the wedding songs. If you were doing a bahmitzva, then
obviously the music was a bit different. But I was responsible for what
the band called the twists. "Have you got any twists, Bob?" they used to
say to me. Every now and then I would go out and buy some sheet music to a
new twist and write it out for them.
RF: I still have occasional nightmares about it.
VG: Anyway, Andrew, looking at Robert, signing away there busy as a little
bee. What was it about his playing that made you reach out for him, as
they say in the Mafia. The first time you decided to do a duet album like
this. What was it about his compatibility or the difference in his playing
or why Robert?
AS: Why Robert, indeed. Well, the serious answer, I suppose, is ...you
know, like how, as you go through life and there is something that you are
aware of all the time and then suddenly it leaps into focus and you are
enlightened. Well, I heard his solo on, and I have quoted this before,
what was that tune, that marvelous tune on The Roches album.
RF: "The Hammond Song"?
AS: He produced a marvelous, heart-rending solo on that, which suddenly lit
me up to him and his works. And I had listened to what he did with David
Bowie, which I enjoyed that very much. I thought it was terrific. At the
time, I was looking for something to do outside of The Police, like a
guitar duet. Something that could be, hopefully, wouldn't interfere with
my activities in The Police and would be sort of rewarding musically.
Really a completely different kettle of fish in terms of commercial
pressures. And I like the idea of trying to do a very sort of 1980s guitar
duet kind of album. So I wrote a letter to Robert from the Munich Hilton.
When I got back to it, I was told that he responded with some enthusiasm.
Of course, eventually, we managed to get together and talk this over. I
think it was at my parent's house at Christmas in 1980. In September 81,
we finally got together and made the album. And of course, that was the
start of this sort of Laurel-and-Hardy career we have pursued since.
VG: Now, one of the things I'm sure our avid and attentive listeners have
noticed about the difference between the first album and this one is that,
on the first album, the term duet was very appropriate for that. There
were clearly two guitar parts there interacting. Now on the second album,
the format has been shifted quite a bit. The first side is sort of dance
oriented and very minimalist, and the second side is remarkably fluid and
it's sometimes hard to tell who is doing what. Even though you are both,
in a sense, equals on the album, if you had to define how your
responsibilities were divided in terms of - does one person play a
particular type of sound, a particular role or responsibility? How does
AS: Yeah, I think you could say that to some extent, but not totally.
RF: It would be inaccurate to say that this was an equal album. I was
there for two and a half weeks and then had to leave for the Crimson tour.
And leave Andy to finish it. So, I think it is certainly fair to Andrew to
say that the album is a lot more Andrew than it is me.
VG: Half of Fripp is better than none, though.
RF: Yes, I think it would be unfair for me to claim half the value of the
album, that's not true.
VG: Okay, but I am talking in terms of when you are both playing on a
particular tune. Is there an instinctive tendency for the way you work
AS: Yeah, I think that is the way we work together. I think, to give you
some sort of idea, if you have a body which is composed of flesh and bones,
then maybe you could say that Robert provides the bones and I provide the
flesh. But this is a real generalization, I don't think this true of every
track we ever recorded. But, I think that's a fair comment on the way we
do it. Robert will come up with a lot of single-line, polyrhythmic riffs
and I will supply the harmonies around them.
VG: For instance, on the new album now, I still have the original cassette
that you gave me which doesn't have any of the tunes listed on it. So, the
thing on the second side that sounds almost Spanish or Moorish.
RF: Oh, that's a hummer.
VG: That really impressed me. Now, there is one guitar going through with
a sort of arppegiating slowly and stately and then there is a fluid guitar
in the middle of that.
RF: That is my new standard guitar tuning.
VG: Now, on the tune in question that we are talking about, what is the
title on that?
RF: Andy chooses the titles. I never know what songs are what. I really
AS: Well, it does get confusing, you know, it almost actually makes a mess
of the production part of the album. Because you work so long for like
these ridiculous, stupid titles you make up - working titles you go
through. And everyone is referring to that. And then you kind of get your
sort of "real" titles for the album sleeve. I remember trying to tell them
to master one tune and they got really confused. It does get confusing.
VG: What does Maquillage mean?
AS: Actually, I think it's French, it means make-up. It has its
implications, I think.
VG: Oh yes.
Song: "Maquillage" (excerpt)
VG: Now, all right, since we happen to be working this one over, Robert,
did your part come first? Did you come to Andy with that simple outline?
RF & AS: Yes
AS: But what Robert did do, which was nifty, because... Most of this
material was made up in the studio. We did have a little rehearsal period,
a few months before, which really didn't get on to the album, apart from
this one tune. Robert, as you may remember, where we were playing it,
because it had kind of a "film" feeling to it, this one. Robert was
playing it, and I was trying to construct a melody over it. But what he
did in the studio, finally, which was pretty nifty, was to remove a note
which put it into 7/4, which made it a lot more interesting. And I merely
improvised over the top of it.
VG: The guitar synthesizer. Both of you now are using guitar synthesizers
on and off, and I think in the washes of sound that we hear on the second
side of the album, it seems to be very predominant. Andy, the first time I
remember hearing you using a guitar synthesizer, I think was on "Doo Doo
Doo" with The Police. Is that where there is that break where there is a
chordal wash? Or is that "Don't Stand"
AS: That's "Don't Stand So Close To Me", yeah.
VG: Okay, now, the track that I heard on "Synchronicity" that I thought was
one of the most beautiful uses of guitar synthesizer was "Tea in the
Sahara", but that wasn't really a guitar synthesizer, was it?
AS: No, actually it is all done with a Stratocaster and an Echoplex.
Song: "Tea in the Sahara" (excerpt)
VG: How did you get that liquid smear sound?
AS: I think that way that I did it, because on the track, each of the three
of the group were all in different rooms. So I was able to turn up
extremely loud, and, you know, you are on the brink of feeding back. So it
starts to kind of wobble, it's not quite sure which way to go. I mean, it
literally depends on whether you turn to face the amplifier. You have to
stand, physically, in the right spot of the room. It is very crucial.
Played very loud and used a volume pedal. Literally, the way I held my
hands on the string and shifted the chord position right at the moment
where it was about to start feeding back. I aged about ten years doing
VG: Now, when you say that you were all in three different rooms, that was
because of personal hygiene problems in the band?
AS: Yeah, personal and mental hygiene problems. No, actually, to be
honest, in Monserat (sp?), the best sounding room for the drums is actually
the dining room, which is a great, long sort of wooden room. And we
actually just cleared the entire space and Stewart had his drums there.
Because it was the best room to get the live sound, much better than the
studio. Sting likes to play through the board, and I was able to just line
up my six amplifiers against one wall and choose whichever combination at
will and blast forth.
VG: As a critic, I have a responsibility to make idiotic theories, of
course, and one of the ones I've come up with is just looking at the two of
you working over the past two or three years and feeling that you have
influenced each other. I think some of Robert's work has become more fluid
and I notice Andy working in some of the odd time signatures that you first
started doing on "I Advance Masked". For instance, "Mother" on The Police
Song: "Mother" (excerpt)
VG: Did that come out of, do you feel, out of some of the work you have
been doing with Robert?
AS: Yeah, there is a little in-joke there, which never offended Robert, I
RF: Not at all.
AS: Good, I mean this is about interacting and everything. I
guess actually the riff as it is in 7, does sound very Frippish,
let's say. Frippesque?
AS: Frippian, yeah I like that. But the solo in particular, which I played
on that track which is actually quite difficult to pull off because the
chords changed and it is in 7/4 time. I sort of had to work it out. But
it starts out as a imitation (AS sings the solo), it starts out as an
imitation of a solo that Robert played on, I believe on..
RF: "Another Green World", isn't it?
AS: "Another Green World". Is it "On Fire Island"?
RF: Once again, Eno's titles always used to throw me.
AS: Well, it was a track that Robert recorded with Brian Eno a few years
back. That solo I particularly like.
RF: Just after midnight in Island number two, actually, with Rhett Davies
AS: Well there you go.
RF: I was just leaving to go to Sherbourne. There you are.
AS: So, I thought is was nice and I started off my solo quoting Robert.
And for the cognoscenti if they had known the two albums that Robert and I,
there was a little joke there. So that's the story on that.
VG: It is Frank and Alice Cognoscenti in Columbus, Ohio
AS: It's Frank and Ernest.
VG: Oh Ernest, that's right. They went through some changes in the
RF: I thought they were fish merchants from Patterson?
VG: Uh, yeah. Of course, the biggest song of last year and a lot of people
would say the biggest single of the decade so far was "Every Breath You
Take". Of course, Sting wrote the song and it is a simple sort of
fifties-sixties chord pattern. But, the guitar figure in there, if I am
not mistaken and I know I am not because you have told me this once before,
the guitar figure and the way it was formatted came from you and didn't
that come from something you were working on out of Bartok and out of
Fripp/Summers or something that was somehow changed or altered for that
AS: Yeah, in between finishing the album with Robert and then going on to
record another Police album and thinking about doing another album with
Robert. I was in various sessions with myself in the kitchen where I live
playing into a tape recorder. I was working on one of those little riffs
that we had done on the first album, which was sort of Bartok, "Painting
and Dance" it was called.
Song: "Painting and Dance" (excerpt)
Song: "Every Breath You Take" (excerpt)
End Part I
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:00:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Ashley Collins <acollins at CapAccess dot org>
In response to at least one subscriber's complaint about how difficult it
is to find USA, I was lucky enough to get a brand new tape in the bargain
bin at Camelot Music for just $1.99!!! Granted, I don't have any extensive
liner notes or fotos due to the format, plus it's a "definitive edition,"
meaning the sound isn't as crisp as on the original release (I assume), but
still . . . .
One other thing: in a recent issue of ET, someone mentioned that Fripp only
released definitive editions on CD. Ignoring my previous paragraph, I
bought a definitive copy of Larks' Tongues on VINYL! Does this seem a bit
odd to anybody else? Why alter the medium where (apart from a little
crackling) the sound is about as perfect as it can be?
acollins at CapAccess dot org
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:25:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Ashley Collins <acollins at CapAccess dot org>
Subject: Holdsworth's ego
Mark Grossman mentioned in issue #166 hearing that Holdsworth had a huge
ego, and that he considered himself the world's greatest guitarist. I
would just like to respond, UH-UHHH!!! If you've read any interview with
Holdsworth, you'd pick up on a HUGE dissatisfaction with his playing. In
one he even said that he didn't consider himself a very good guitarist
because he _wasn't_ a guitarist; he was just a musician who got stuck with
the wrong instrument.
Sorry for the non KC-related material, Toby.
acollins at CapAccess dot org
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 10:46:03 PST
From: "Allen Huotari" <allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com>
Subject: SILENT NIGHT flexi for sale/trade
At the risk of turning ET into a classified ads section...
Is anyone interested in a copy of "'Silent Night'" ala
This was released on a red flexi-disc in the Dec 1979 issue of Praxis
(an arts and music magazine). Playable at 33 1/3 rpm.
This flexi has been played once and as some of you may be aware, the
surface noise of a flexi increases significantly after even one play.
Therefore please be forewarned that you should not expect this item to
be in pristine condition.
Additionally this item is quite rare so I'd only recommend this to
very serious, maybe even obsessive collectors.
Please note that I am not listing a price for this so you will have to
make an offer (and there is no minimum bid either). This item is also
available in trade. Bids will be accepted through March 5 1995.
Please respond with offers or questions to me personally NOT to
Elephant Talk. Thanks.
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:29:46 EST
From: CTYM80A at prodigy dot com (MR BRIAN K PRESTON)
I recently remebered a Crimson bootleg I used to have (and may still have
although I could not find it prior to this post). It was labeled
"Indisciple" and was alive recording of the newly re-formed KC with Tony
Levin and Adrian of course. It had rough versions of the songs on
Discipline and they were arranged differnetly than the way they turned out
on the album. It was wild and high energy and I remember wierd versions of
The Sheltering Sky and Thela Hun Ginjeet. Has anyone else ever heard this?
If so, do you know where it was recorded? Also, I noticed that Tony Levin
posted last time and thats great. Thanks Tony for reading and posting I
wanted to tell you if you read this post that I am a bass player and have
really enjoyed listeneing to you with Crimson and Gabriel (as well as Joan
Armatrading? or am I spacing on that?) I really enjoy playing Thela Hun
Ginjeet and Matte Kudasai, you have influenced my playing significantly. I
am really digging you work on Vroom...especially the floating section where
you sort of squeeze the notes in unexpected ways. Your tone is fabulous
also! And One Time is already locked into my consciousness and my young
kids and I like to dance in twirling circles to its space. Thanks...BKP in
NC :) anticipating the rest...
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:25:53 +0800
From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes)
Subject: Great Santa Cruz Fripp & Calif Guitar Trio show
I have only a wee bit of time to write this post, but wanted to let my
fellow E-Talk'ers know that last night's Robert Fripp & California Guitar
Trio show at The Catalyst in Santa Cruz, CA, was ABSOLUTELY
It was so good I'm sorely tempted to zip up to San Francisco tonight to
see one or both of the two shows at Slim's.
I picked up the new California Guitar Trio CD and talked to a couple of the
Trio members afterwards. Very nice guys, Very excellent guitarists, of
course. They work VERY well with Mr. Fripp when he joined them for the
opening and closing numbers.
The four artists started with an acoustic quartet piece at the foot of the
stage. With that, Robert then moved on stage and began a set of
"Ultra-Harmonizer" enhanced instrumental pieces. I'd call this
1995-vintage "Frippertronics" (no more Revox ...all digital gear). After
the last notes of this set died down, Robert signaled the Trio (with a nod)
to move onto stage. He stood, disconnected his guitar, put it down, and
took a position behind his equipment, focusing his attention very intently
on the Trio.
The California Guitar Trio did an amazing set which included Bach's Toccata
and Fugue in D Minor. After 3 or so tunes, the Trio stood and filed
offstage and Robert returned for another Frippertronics set; followed by
another Trio set, at the end of which Robert strapped on his acoustic
guitar and the four men filed to the rear of the auditorium and played a
final acoustic number. After a few minutes of thunderous applause, just
the Trio returned to stage and played an encore. And that was it. Great
I know I didn't talk about the music much. I'll have to defer to others,
because I purposefully did not take notes. Besides, there was no
From: Jean Adams <jadams at mtu dot edu>
Subject: last of diary
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 0:16:58 EST
Well, here is the last of the musician article - enjoy --jean
The diary of King Crimson by Robert Fripp, from musician magazine dated
Monday, April 27th, 1981; Chez Parents; 1815
Somewhat weary after today's rehearsals. Backtracking to Saturday: we heard
Adrian's vocal ideas. Good words, good tunes, particularly "Heat in The
Jungle" and "Matte" in the evening we went to Shillingstone Village Hall to
see the Martian Schoolgirls and a group from the Tarrant Valley. Both were
effective, and Tommy Winstone's PA system from Bournemouth is good, his
mixing excellent. This area is getting close to having a musical review. We
may not have local groups with new styles likely to change fashion on a
world level, but we can go to a village hall and enjoy ourselves to live
music enthusiastically played. Shillingstone was full and
bopping. Returning to Wimborne we got caught in a blizzard which cut off
the electricity at the Horton Inn on Sunday morning at 7:00. So a shivering
team came into HQ in the afternoon to warm up, as AB and myself worked on
our parts. Continuing to socialise, we went off to Bournemouth to see "The
Long Good Friday," which appalled Tony and triggered stories of making "One
Trick Pony," which kept him filming for ten weeks.
Late night Pad and I had a heads-together over the prospects of an autumn
U.S. tour. September is the seventh anniversary of King Crimson "ceasing to
exist," the end of the Drive to 1981 and the beginning of the Incline to
1984, and the release of our album. It would seem to be the moment for
Discipline to change its colours. But, we don't have a label. So, Paddy
and I had best go shopping in late June when I'll be in New York to cut the
record. The distributors in America are Polygram, WEA, RCA and CBS. Given
that, what can anyone do? They're all hopeless. Staying with Polygram in
Europe is probably okay. One of my aims is to limit record company abuse,
like highly expensive and irrelevant meals. It can feel good to have a meal
on a personal level with the record company, and sometimes it's even okay
that the company pays for it. Usually, I go Dutch. But mostly the process
of expense account spending is degrading.
The size of venue is critical. Playing in a 3,000- or 5,000 seater
resembles a circus, not a pulling together of people I'd prefer a 1,000- to
1,500-seater for two shows a night two or three nights in a town, to an
endless parade of one - nighters, flying every day from one town to
another. The problem is the budget. Playing should pay for itself, at
least, not be subsidised by records. So where the week's budget is in the
red, perhaps play a larger venue to pay the bills and a smaller one in the
same town the next night for a different feel. The aim for this tour is to
break even. Another problem for me is cameras: photography interrupts the
unfolding of the event. One compromise is to let the press take pictures
for ten minutes and then leave. But, as a principle, you don't set
different standards for the industry and the public. So, everyone has
cameras, or no one does.
The strength of this group must be used to find cleaner ways of working,
and should be seen to be doing that.
Tuesday,April 28th, 1981; Horton Inn; 11:15.
All this needs to be discussed with the team. So far my ideas have been
taken on trust.
Rehearsals yesterday were hard. The general shape is better but that shows
up weaknesses in details. My own musical work at the moment is developing
my knowledge of scales. The Bartok string quartets got me going
originally. During the 70s different scales were popularised by jazz-rock
outfits, primarily the Mahavishnu Orchestra and Weather Report.
Persichetti's 20TH CENTURY HARMONY, Schillinger, and an article in GUITAR
PLAYER by Joseph Ciprani on "Exotic Scales" are very helpful. The two main
ways of finding new scales are by drawing on tradition, for example, the
synthetic scales mostly taken from European folk music, and by constructing
them mathematically, as with Schillinger. Our culture uses mainly a
seven-note scale, some have five, some three, some even a one-note
scale. But a one-note scale is only rich if you can listen on the inside of
the note. It probably takes about three years before any particular scale
is internalised, and the player can "speak" the scale without stopping to
think about it.
Chez Parents; 19:50.
Rhett Davies, who'll be co-producing the album with us, trained from London
to see what he's letting himself in for. He seemed impressed. We closed in
on details. All the vocals are now together for the first time: Adrian took
the lyrics for "Indiscipline" from a letter his wife sent. "Discipline"
might be our most successful failure: it's possibly the most difficult tune
I've ever played, and I'm still not sure how to play it, but it's quite
seductive. Bill found a way of listening outside the part he has with Tony,
and loved it. Bill is working so hard to please he has earned my
respect. Tony's photography is excellent and his portfolio has some
gems. He's coming down with a cold, or flu. Adrian feels this band is
pushing him to the limit of what he can do. Working with the Talking Heads
began the process, this band is taking it further. He didn't think he was
ready for it because he's "out of his league". But if Adrian did know what
he was doing he'd be using solutions to old problems, therefore useless for
us. Bill is just at the right point for the band, and I've spent seven
years getting ready for it. Tony is always on: he doesn't seem to have our
Currently I'm exhausted, irritable and just hanging in there.
Thursday, April 30th, 1981; King's Head Hotel, Wimborne; 10:30.
Today we have our first gig, at Moles vegetarian wine bar and restaurant in
Bath. I'm just in here for the best morning coffee in town with my mum and
her friends, Cynthia Bourne and Edie Steed, and reflecting on the past
twenty-four hours. Yesterday before rehearsals I made my debut as an
offical "teacher" at an officially constituted instituted institution, the
audio-visual department of Bournemouth College, at the invitation of the
lecturer John Wrigglesworth. It was a small group of six men and one woman,
and their training is mainly directed towards commerce. The morning left me
unsettled: not much contact happened. Infinitely more was said in the
canteen informally in fifteen minutes than during the entire time in the
Rehearsals were a final tightening up, and discussing the set. A quote from
AB: "This group does examine all the small points." A high proportion of
this band's music is amazing. And the failures are equally amazing. Paddy
and the complete road team arrived. Said Pad: "Indiscipline' is great! It's
The feeling of completion at this stage is remarkable: the feeling of
letting go that is part of it. My evening was relaxed. But to get the band
further as a unit we need a shock. And there's nothing like exposure to
public ridicule to concentrate the attention. So, off to Moles. ....TO BE
(although this said it would continue, I haven't seen any other parts
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 23:47:55 -0800
From: edumark at ix dot netcom dot com (chris hoard)
Subject: The Holdsworth Question
Someone--Paulo--invited some input from yours truly.
Excuse the spew, it's been a while. We had a son, Miles, btw, in December,
and I'm naturally proud and dedicating a little bandwidth here to his
remarkably protean presence. And besides, someone did mention my name!
This discussion of a RF/AH collaboration as obvious--strikes me at once as
the quintessence of net absurdity--and oddly plausible.
First of all, having spent a few hours in the company of RF over the
years-- many more in the company of BB--and countless in the company of
AH... My impression is the musical approach and personalities of AH and RF
are farther apart than Greenland and Tasmania...
Then have a listen to their styles. Both musicians have vast influence on
minions of lesser musicians (RF far more vast on global 20th Century
Schizoid styles) and AH far more vast on those who must constantly tinker
with stretching the boundaries of the instrument, or try to find focus and
personality in an excess flurry of notes...
The question wouldn't be whether AH would do it--but rather RF, and I'll
admit to being curious enough about whether RF has any appreciation of AH
at all. Two entirely different musical beasts, not necessarily inhabiting
the same dimension, and one of them, fooling themselves into thinking the
musician's brain can actually make the transition from below the waste to
above the neck... That's a highly questionable premise.
On several occasions AH and I have spun "The Great Deceiver" -- and AH was
genuinely taken with the music. He prefers the shuffling rhythm of
American powerhouses like Tony Williams and Billy Cobham typically--but
will no doubt gravitate back to the stiffer sense of rhythm BB has tried so
hard to liberate himself from, and birthing a more jazz- appreciative form
of rock-drum-based jazz in the process.
Ofcourse both AH and RF have collaborated with other guitarists--moreso RF,
especially as of late with his fine cadre of students (maybe that's not a
collaboration... oh well). But more unlikely things have happened, I have
to keep telling myself. AH in Level 42--and he enjoyed it more than UK.
RF producing Ovary Lodge "This is acoustic jazz," quoth Robert the producer
on the liner notes (RF always had a knack for astute observation and
accurate documentation). Then of course, there's an underrated musical
genius like Keith Tippett appearing on the early Crimson albums. And Bob
Well, both RF and AH traverse musical boundaries readily--AH far more at
ease in the jazz world, and as nearly "egoless" as a rarely talented
musician can be. RF for all his intense efforts at analyzing, shunning,
architecting his public persona and venting a venemous rage at the
injustice of the century in his music, ever re-inventing his approach to
his audience. It's as if he's on this eternal quest to find a fractal
formula to construct the perfect model to explain all human behavior, a
sort of Mandelbrot set that predicts who becomes prostitute and who
president, then matches the appropriate prostitute or actress to the
politician; something to eliminate human imperfections with similar aims
such as British tabloids... Simultaneously RF must harbor this secret hope
to irrationally depart one of his megalopoli and catch the first flight to
Crete or Cyprus, hike up some dangerous footholds to an ancient monestary,
and then stumble accross the perfect ancient icon that holds the single
It being, "don't ask me, ask David Sylvian."
I would have to think that Fripp would find soloing over AH's amazing
orchestrations a refreshing challenge--if not a compatible one. Likewise
for a Holdsworth confronting Frippertronics.
Still the meeting of the minds speculated here conjures rainbow images of
oil and water--it could produce a terrible and menacing beauty--or a
reeking spill of noise pollution--but I suppose they would have to try
first, then decide later as to whether a new powerful presence had made
itself known in the studio. That's one of the wonders of "real music," I
I was in the same room after a KC show in '83. AH and his wife had been
invited up by BB--Fripp passed through the room in a sort of silent Vrooom
in one of his after-show comas, not in any mood for contact, with aliens or
otherwise. AH sort of moved toward him to say hello, but RF looked as if
he was convinced a nuclear device was about to be detonated at the Greek
Theatre, and was determined to flee the room. He was in the room all of
five seconds--something which Mark Perry assures me those who've known RF
long and well is entirely predictable. These after-concert wine and cheese
industry gatherings (especially one such as this in Hollywood) are
certainly enough to turn any truly sensitive person into an accellerating
AH, quite content surveying the talent in the room, said, "Jesus, what's
BB said to AH, "Oh never mind him. Robert's always like that after a gig..."
So there's the incredible story of the polar prog-opposites of guitar not
quite meeting. Apologies to those who've read previous postings along these
All the best/Chris
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:21:25 +0100
From: Anders Berggren <f92-abe at nada dot kth dot se>
Subject: Req: King Crimson tabbed?
Hi, I wonder if there is some KC tabbed somewhere?
At Nevada there is some, but they are way wrong. So if anyone got correct
tabs would you please mail them to me or nevada? I'm VERY interested in
Lark's tounges II and 21st Century...
Thanks for reading this.
Anders. f92-abe at nada dot kth dot se
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 10:34:03 -0700 (MST)
From: DIXONE at yvax dot byu dot edu
Subject: Definitive Edition
The original pressings of Crimson CDs were unprofessional and sloppy, which
inspired Fripp to oversee the Definitive Editions with Tony Arnold in 1989.
The original CD of Islands had the "invisible track" (the unlisted track
13, I believe) with musicians tuning and a couple of comments by Fripp, and
while this was supposed to be a part of the album, it was overlooked in the
Definitive Edition pressing. Fripp tried to rectify this by including the
track on Frame by Frame in 1991. Hopefully, by the time I get around to
purchasing the Islands CD, there will be a Definitive Edition with that
Eric D. Dixon
"Smiling as the Puppets Dance"
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:27:21 -0600
From: Damon C Capehart <dcapehar at utdallas dot edu>
Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v95 #165
With all this debate about the price of VROOOM, I feel I must remind people
that the distributor (Possible Productions) only gets these on import.
It seems obvious, then, that the EP would be priced like a full-length album.
Damon Capehart | "SALESMEN!!!" -- Rush
dcapehar at utdallas dot edu
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 17:20:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Watcher Of The Skies <MOHANJP at AC dot GRIN dot EDU> (John P Mohan)
Subject: scary sounds on 3oaPP
I was listening to the second half of _Three Of A Perfect Pair_ (the only
half I will allow myself to listen to) and I heard some very strange things
in a couple of the tracks.
1. Dig Me: towards the beginning (0:32) there is a muffled sound that
resembles a human voice, sounds like Adrians, saying something that is
perhaps three syllables long. It's too muffled to tell what he's saying.
2. No Warning: either Robert or Adrian succeeds in making their guitars
form words - starting at about 2:12, what seems to be a flanged guitar says
"You're no one!" over and over and over. This happens again later in the
song, and then again, with the guitar saying only "No one" over and over.
Granted, this might not be what the guitarist intended, but it's impossible
for me to hear it without hearing "You're no one!"
These sorts of things are scary and King Crimson seems to be pretty good at
doing them - there are assorted whoops and hollers in songs like We'll Let
You Know, Fracture, and Lark's Tongues in Aspic pt. 3.
Just thought I'd pass this on to anyone who hadn't noticed it themselves...
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:21:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matthew F. McCabe" <finley at ecst dot csuchico dot edu>
Subject: Fripp in SF
Just got back from the Robert Fripp show in SF--my first. Did anyone else
go to actually *listen* to his playing? I was seriously disappointed and
pissed off by the conduct of most of the audience. The only reason I went
to the show was to listen to Fripp--which I could hardly do because of the
drunk idiots around me (not to mention a handful of people smoking and
I would have excepted such behavior from people listening to a crappy cover
band. No, I didn't go excepting absolute silence from the audience, but I
did expect some respect for Fripp and others attending the show.
finley at ecst dot csuchico dot edu