From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSat Nov 26 12:30:29 1994 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 15:40:52 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #158 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 158, Friday, 25 November 1994 Today's Topics: Random Permutosity Drumming on VROOOM Recommended Listening Getting ahold of VROOM Re: When I say stop... Another Red cover Re: when I say stop... Islands help! Gordon Haskell, etc. Criticism of VROOOM (esp. Thrak) Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #157 psychodots Another Possible Vrooom Origin (shrug) More VROOOM Musings Frippertronics & Repetition ftp by email No-man VROOOM can change your life Scaaaarrrry! WHEN I SAY.... Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #156 Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #156 previous letter Various old streams VROOM is now at Best Buy Adrian Belew's tuning Hendrix and Vrooom Fripp info from Finland the bears VROOOM -- Antipodean Impressions misc affairs [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 13:48:12 EST From: brzrkr at unipress dot com Subject: Random Permutosity The query of Nadav Noah Caine in ET 156 asking about Robert Fripp's interest in Virtual Reality led me to wonder if VROOM might be an achronym for Virtual Reality Object Oriented Music :) Pat Hickey ***SPH brzrkr at unipress dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: vince at io dot com (vince) Subject: Drumming on VROOOM Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:53:43 -0600 (CST) I'll preface my remarks by saying that _VROOOM_ is wonderful. I can't play it loud enough! Anyway, I was listening to the song "VROOOM" on some headphones. At 2:19 into the song, this off-beat drum thwak starts up. It really stands out and actually annoys me a bit. When listening to the cd over my stereo at home, the drum part sounds better but it still remains a bit distracting. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I a 4/4 hick that just doesn't get it? Comments welcome. On another note, I exchanged e-mail with someone who said he saw _VROOOM_ at Tower Records in Boston for $14. Thanks to Possible Productions, I'm wearing a red Discipline shirt at work today. vince [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 11:36:02 PST From: "grant green" Subject: Recommended Listening At the risk of appearing too eclectic (but when has that ever bothered a KC fan?), I have to recommend a classical album: Ginastera's Harp Concerto, Estancia, and Piano Concerto No. 1, by the Orquesta de la Ciudad de Mexico, directed by Enrique Batiz (ASV Digital, CD DCA 654, 1989). I just found this at Tower the other day. Those of you familiar with ELP's Toccata (from Brain Salad Surgery) will immediately recognize the Piano Concerto: Toccata is essentially Keith Emerson's adaptation of the Concerto. The original is just as exciting, bizarre, and strange, if a bit less electonic. Why recommend this to KC fans? This is "modern" classical music. Most of it is very melodic, but there are a lot of polyrhythms and repeated figures, especially in Estancia. I've been listening to this all morning in my office. Maybe its the flu (or the decongestants), but in the silence between Estancia and the Piano Concerto, I found myself expecting to hear the beginning of Larks Tongue in Aspic Pt. II. If you like Discipline-type KC and classical music, you may really like Estancia. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:41:08 -0800 From: mcartney at netcom dot com ( scorch ) Subject: Getting ahold of VROOM For those who don't like mail-order, or (like me) just can't stand the wait for it to arrive, VROOM is easily available in your local Tower Records. It was even (gasp!) prominently displayed... scorch [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David=Lane%HQ%Rational at Vines1 dot ratsys dot com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:07:26 EST Subject: Re: When I say stop... From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) wrote: >I just thought I'd share a thought that occurred to me while listening to >the end of "When I Say Stop, Continue." At the point where half the band >drops out, leaving Fripp and others still playing, Adrian should have >looked serious and said in deadpan: > >"Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but restraint is also required." > >..and then ducked to avoid the things thrown at him by the other >musicians.... Here is what occurred to me: Since Belew didn't say "Simon says...", whoever DID stop playing shouldn't have been allowed to play on "One Time". -- davidl at ratsys dot com "Hratche Plche, Hratche Plche" --Frank Zappa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 15:28:03 -0400 From: "Walter Daniel" Subject: Another Red cover The recent mention of a cover by "Red" reminded me of yet another cover of the song that I've heard. Some of you may have heard of Fonya, the name under which Chris Fournier has released two CDs on the Kinesis label in the US. Fonya CDs are right on the ragged edge between electronic music and progressive rock. The first CD had some vocals, the second did not; I think Chris has already finished enough material for two more discs! I visited Larry Kolota (owner, president, chief bottle washer of Kinesis) and he pulled out a DAT from Chris. One of the songs was a thunderous cover of "Red." Chris usually plays guitar sparingly, but he had a monster guitar sound for this song. While he programs a drum machine as well as anyone I've heard, he usually sticks with understated patterns. Not for "Red!" The drum sounds are pounding, yet crystal clear. It was a truly great rendition of the song. Alas, Chris and Larry have no plans to use "Red" on a Fonya CD. I don't know if there are permission/licensing problems, but I suspect that Chris would prefer to release original material. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:27:06 +0300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Re: when I say stop... >From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) >I just thought I'd share a thought that occurred to me while listening to >the end of "When I Say Stop, Continue." At the point where half the band >drops out, leaving Fripp and others still playing, Adrian should have >looked serious and said in deadpan: > >"Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but restraint is also required." > >...and then ducked to avoid the things thrown at him by the other musicians.... Can't help but thinking that the title, apart from the ragged stop start ending, is also referring back to the ending of Fripp's "Under Heavy Manners" which ends with "Stop...... Continue" James Musical recommendation for the day: Acadie (Daniel Lanois) James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Islands Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:03:43 EST From: John Saylor >From: Suntower Systems <70242 dot 1520 at compuserve dot com> >2) Believe it or not based on what I just said, I have never heard >'Islands'. Would someone give me a quick review? Is it similar to Lizard, or >more in the direction of Larks Tongues In Aspic? Islands is an introspective album. Stylistically it is closer to Lizard than Lark's Toungues, although it is a bridge [both stylistaically and chronologically] between the two. The instrumental pallate is much more pared down in Islands than on Lizard. There is an oboe player and a string 4tet, but not Tippet or any guest vocalists like on Lizard. There is some good stuff on there, I like, "Ladies of the Road," a little rocker with an interesting 7 against 8 - vocal instrumental juxtaposition featured prominently [like "Easy Money"]. And Fripp wrote a string quartet that's nice, but not really earth shattering. It is not essential, but is very intersting in showing the band at a transition between two different sound worlds. I always think that each reinvention of Crimson's sound world starts with an album that features red on the cover: In the Court of the Crimson King Lark's Tounge's in Aspic Discipline jsaylor [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 18 Nov 94 16:59:12 EST From: trey gunn Subject: help! please help! this may sound small and insignificant but,....... We are having a terribly difficult time getting and keeping my album, "1000 Years", (not to mention the California Guitar Trio) in stores. I am, frankly, at my wits end. I would strongly encourage those of you who have an interest -- to go to your local record stores and ask for these CD's as if you might buy them. Especially in America. Only if there is a voiced demand can we continue to deliver (and I mean literally "deliver") these types of records. thanks, trey [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:51:12 -0800 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Gordon Haskell, etc. > 1) Whatever happened to Gordon Haskell, bass player and singer. I > thought he did a great job on Lizard and yet I never see him mentioned > anywhere, only Wetton and Lake. I think he rose from being a roadie to being trained on bass by Fripp when he was needed in a pinch. As far as I could tell he more or less retired from music for years, aside from I think at least one post-King Crimson lo he did with other ex-KC'ers at the time he split. I forget the title but I've heard it's a fairly bad bluesy lp with little hinting that it's Fripp's ex-backing band. Around 1993 or so he did a solo cd on Voiceprint, a UK label. He was talking about a brief US tour at that time which I don't think ever happened. I've heard the release is mostly or all acoustic guitar. > Whatever happened to these ex-Crimsonites: 1) Jamie Muir Muir after supposedly retiring from music for a monestary after leaving King Crimson did do some later recording with Derek Bailey's Company, doing highly improvised stuff that's probably a bit hard for most folks to get into. Last receorded in late 70's or early 80's. As of a few years ago he's now just painting. An excellent interview with him ran a couple of years ago in Ptloemaic Terrascope. > 3) David Cross Has two decent releases out in recent years and has been touring some, I think based in the UK. - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "Altemir, David A." Subject: Criticism of VROOOM (esp. Thrak) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 17:07:00 cst Dear KCers: After calling just about every music store in Houston and Detroit for several days to see when a copy of VROOOM would be available, I finally laid my hands and ears on it this Monday. As most of you agree, the title track was really interesting and reminiscent of things like "Red" and "Larks'. . .". However, as I continued listening, I would have to say I agree with Greg B's comments in Elephant-Talk #157. I just don't . . . see a whole lot of . . . intelligent arranging or playing going on here . . . there, I said it! And Thrak! Thrak is one giant noise mess that I would have laughed at if I didn't know what caliber of musicians were involved. Oh well, I guess I'll just consider Thrak as a musical curiosity and see if it grows on me (but it probably won't). One positive note: "One Time" was really great! I love the synth-sounding guitar intro, latin percs, and a 6/4 time signiture is always interesting for a tune that actually has a popular handle to it. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: pvallado at sdcc5 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #157 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:06:37 -0800 (PST) > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 18:52:54 -0600 > From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) > Subject: comments on VROOOM > > apart, from being familiar with their work. Bruford's drumming is very > disctinctive -- Mastelloso's parts are therefore whatever doesn't sound > like Bruford :-). Levin/Gunn is more difficult for me to hear. In > general, there's some nice interplay between Bruford's and Mastelloso's > snares -- listen, they're distinctly different sounds! The opening section After listening (more than once!) to the CD with stereo headphones, I made the following observations: Fripp is panned to the left of the stereo field, Belew's guitar is in the middle (occasionally panned right), and Gunn's Stick is panned to the right. I was able to identify each of the three from previous exposure to each musician's respective playing styles and tonal preferences. This arrangment of the three melody instruments (not counting the vocals) is 100% consistent; in "Caged" for example, both Belew's guitar and Gunn's Stick share the right side of the stereo field; making it harder to distinguish the two. The separation of the two guitars and the Stick in the stereo field is remarkably clear in "Sex Eat Sleep Dream" (probaly scrambled the title); check out the interplay between all three instruments as they smoothly exchange lead/rhythm roles without disrupting the flow of the song. Unexpected is Fripp's use of a twangy Texas-approved tremelo effect, which adds to the overall bluesy feel of the song. Bruford's drums are panned to the left and Mastelotto's to the right. Bruford's snare drum sound was as usual unmistakeable. This arrangement of the two drummers remained a constant throughout the CD. Kudos to Mastelotto for not merely playing human drum machine to Bruford's percussives and making significant contributions of his own to the music. > Thrak: This song is growing on me. Rather industrial-sounding in places -- > almost like a subway train in the percussion. At points, this piece > careens nearly out of control, but finds its way back in sync. I note that > there is no "keyboard" listed in the instrumentation. Most likely, it's > Belew making those keyboard-y noises, although it could be TLev as well. Both Fripp and Belew are equipped with guitar synthesizers and state of the art effects processing devices, enabling them to summon just about any soudn imaginable. Gunn is also equipped with his own sophisticated signal processing setup and he, too, is a specialist in signal processing. [Michale Feathers] > in the 70s to create a new form of rock music based on improvisation but > the vocabularies of classical music and jazz kept sneaking in. _Vrooom_'s > 'Thrak' in contrast, is the new band: the music turns and pivots like > sinister machine, exposing a new face of detail every few seconds using > only a Crimson vocabulary. On _Vrooom_, the King seems to have finally > achieved its earlier aim. I hear a bit of blues influence in "Sex Eat Sleep Dream". Perhaps this comes from the influence of Jimi Hendrix and his musical forbears on both guitarists in the band. Not necessarily a direct imitation or recycling of the blues, mind you, but a bit of the spirit of that music is there. > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:11:01 -0500 > From: Tony Levin > Subject: Duet > > Hello. Trey Gunn and I just finished recording a Stick duet for the new > Crimson album. Don't know if it'll make it on, but we thought you'd like > the name, "Internet." Thank you for sharing that with us. If your duet piece does not make it on the album, would you consider releasing it elsewhere? > From: sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu (Scott T. Anderson) > Subject: VROOOM (A Review of the new King Crimson) > Date: 9 Nov 1994 20:38:24 GMT > Organization: Calvin Shulman Fan Club > > "Cage" is a short, strange, humorous, complex piece. I swear I heard a > riff from "Fracture" in it (or maybe it was in "Thrak," I'm not sure at > this point). It sounded more like a Lark's Tongue in Aspic I/III riff to me. I am considering ordering the Robert Fripp STring Quintet T-shirt, though, because it is advertised as having an excerpt from "Fracture" in standard music notation on the front. > "When I Say Stop, Continue" is a great improv, that starts out with a > droning stick rumble and great guitar effects, and builds into a rocking > jam. Near the end, Belew exclaims, "Okay, now come to a dead stop! One, > two, three, four... Fripp and perhaps Levin or Gunn comply, but the rest > go on for a bit (hence the title). It's interesting... this totally > imposing improv comes to a hilarious conclusion. I'm not sure that's Belew's voice. I've heard his speaking voice, which has more of a Midwestern drawl to it. I suspect that was the voice of engineer David Bottril coming from the control room. > From: Crimson at eworld dot com > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 17:02:07 PST > Subject: Another VROOM review > > A non-musicians' thoughts on VROOM (after about 10 listens)... > > Overall, I'm disappointed. It seems that the collection exudes mostly > muscle and anger, and is in some appreciable need of contrasting nuance, > texture, and emotion. Most of the pieces sound like cuts that wouldn't make > a regular album release. Actually, the pieces seem to be in various stages Yes, that's why it's referred to as a "calling card, not a love letter". It's a snapshot of "works in progress". In no way was _Vroom_ intended to be a "finished product". > Sex.... sounds like the most "finished" cut on the CD, but, despite all the > activity, isn't particulary interesting melodically or rhythmically. In I found the interplay between Fripp, Belew, and Gunn on this piece to be fascinating and thrilling. Try listening to this through headphones so you can hear the three lead instruments interacting more clearly. That they were able to pull off this much improvisation within the confines of a seemingly straightforward pop song, without disrupting the flow of the song; is a stunning achievement. > I guess what's most disappointing is that the potential for a wide range of > texture and was incredible - two guitarists, two bassists, and two > drummers. There dosen't seem to be a lot of drumming interplay, and can > anyone say where two bassists are? I mean, it's LOUDER than the previous > four-piece unit, but is it any richer? Well, most of the time there's only one bassist, Tony Levin. If you listen to the CD with headphones, you will notice that Mr. Gunn's Stick is soaring up there with the two guitars (he's mostly on the right side of the stereo field). > Am I being too harsh since this is a calling card and not a love letter? Is > that designation an acknowledgment that you're listening to a work in > progress? Should that make one's reaction different? I'm a laserdisc > consumer, and VROOM is sort of like the supplemental material on a special > edition, but without the main film. It might be a lot more interesting when > compared to the context of the finished work, which in this case, is still > yet to come. > > Greg B. (ready and waiting for incoming...) Vroom is one of those albums better experienced through headphones; it's much easier to hear each member's individual contributions. It's nice to know that not everybody is falling head-over-heels over Vroom, ;), considering Vroom is just an appetizer for what's to come. I don't envy the band; _Vroom_ has basically succeeded in raising expectations even higher than before for the new full-length album (I do hope they find room for the Gunn/Levin duet). To meet those expectations is a tough assignment indeed, yet I have no doubt that the band is up to the task, and I'm not just saying this to make the three band members who are confirmed E.T. readers feel good. Now for a question of my own: Has anyone checked out the CD by _Prometheus_? The fact that Mastelotto is involved with this group along with former Fripp students sounds interesting. -- Paolo Valladolid ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | | ----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at sdcc5 dot ucsd dot edu for more info \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: r dot dittmeier at genie dot geis dot com Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 02:13:00 UTC Subject: psychodots > Date: 07 Nov 94 15:05 GMT > From: GRACO1 at AppleLink dot Apple dot COM (Graco, Doug Farrow,AM) > Subject: Belew et al > Just a brief question - I've heard the Psychodots referred to as the Bears > minus Belew. Earlier, I heard the Bears referred to as the Raisins plus > Belew. Does this mean the Psychodots are merely the Raisins renamed? Essentially, yes. The Raisins were a Cincinnati-area band in the early 80's consisting of Rob Fetters (guitar), Bob Nyswonger (bass), Rick Neiheisel (keys), and Chris Arduser (drums), who was replaced by Bam Powell. Belew, who is originally from that area himself, produced an album for them. They broke up after that, and Belew joined forces with Fetters and Nyswonger. Larrie Londin (sp?) was supposed to play drums, but he died, and they called Arduser. So we got The Bears and their two albums on IRS. IRS closed their label, Primitive Man. Without a recording contract, Belew went on to do other stuff. Fetters, Nyswonger, and Arduser decided to continue as The Raisins, but legal difficulties with the California Raisins folks forced them to change their name. So now we have psychodots. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 00:43:25 -0500 From: Merrill Tritt Subject: Another Possible Vrooom Origin (shrug) Back in 1973, Victor Vroom and P. W. Yetton constructed a decision tree to aid managers in deciding whether to allow group participation in decision-making and to what extent. Considering Fripp's capacity as "leader" and each member's individual improv contribution, this =could= be a possible origin of the ep's title - or Fripp (or someone else) might have said, "I can't think of a name. Let's call it Vrooom." I think both theories carry equal weight. :) I do, however, wonder if Yetton might be pronounced as Wetton when spoken in the correct language? Anybody know? (hmmmm....) =========================================================================== == Merrill Tritt === mtritt01 at solix dot fiu dot edu === Miami, FL == == unbeing dead isn't being alive - e.e. cummings == =========================================================================== [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 22:46:34 -0700 From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man) Subject: More VROOOM Musings Well as VROOOM started up, i got scared. Yes, it sounded so much like "3 of a Perfect Pair" that i thought i might end up disappointed...that there was nothing new here, just another lame attempt to recapture the glory of DISCIPLINE and BEAT. The second (and at the time to my ears, better) part of "VROOOM" sounded just like the second part of Lark's Tongues Part III, which, while nothing too terribly special, was one of the few redeeming features of that album. Well my fears were soon written off. I loved "Sex, Sleep, Eat, Dream" which harkens back to the insanity of Adrian's first solo album, has some great Frippwork, and reminds us that Bill is an integral part of Crimso. Cage i won't comment on except to say i laughed out loud. THRAK is an achievement. Dense, moody, threatening, complex. Everything i would expect from a band that dares to call itself KING Crimson. I'll be digesting that piece until the new album comes out and probably beyond that. "When I say stop, Continue" is the improv that was missing from "Discipline" and re-establishes the band at the forefront of experimental rock. Great blow, guys! Can't wait to see the live gig! "One time" is a great Belew tune, i guess there is some truth to the assertion that these guys are getting old. Lounge music, indeed! All in all, i say it's one of the better discs to come out since My Bloody Valentine did _Loveless_ or Slowdive did _Blue Day_. Here's to pushing the envelope! They've taken my favorite elements of old Crimson and added new touches, then pushed the whole thing up to the next platform, incorporating and superceding the best aspects of modern ambient, industrial, thrash, hardcore and rock-n-roll. And for those Discipline readers who were lamenting for the last two years that it just WOULDN'T be King Crimson without BB, how's it feel to see you were right? I'm certainly glad they waited for him. Earthworks may also be a great band, but in King Crimson Bill has contributed, and defined, a whole new musical niche for the rock drummer. I understand he has always respected and wanted to be a jazz drummer, but fact is he has expanded the vocabulary of rock percussiion like no other. Rock just hasn't been the same without him. Welcome back, Bill. One more tidbit: looks like Fripp has finally gotten out from under the thumb of EG Enterprises by founding Discipline Records. How about that notice on the back cover: "Discipline accepts no reason for artists to give away such copyright interests in their work by virtue of a `common practice' which is out of tune with the time, was always questionable and is now indefensible." You tell 'em Robert! Now release live box sets from the other two Crimson incarnations, and you won't have to worry about the bootleggers anymore either :-) !! --lizard man [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 02:19:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Charles E. Hoskins - Propst" Subject: Frippertronics & Repetition As I was listening to "Threnody for Souls in Torment" this evening, the thought occurred to me: perhaps all this musical repetition is not simply a way for one guitarist to make a lot of noise (albeit frequently beautiful) but also a mode of commentary on, or emotional representation of, repetition in daily life. Consider: "1984-1989" (historical-political repetition), "Easter Sunday" (liturgical/sacrificial repetition), "Bringing Down the Light" (spiritual/meditational repetition), and "Threnody for Souls in Torment" (psychological/obssessive repetition). Then again, maybe it's way past my bed time. Eric Hoskins-Propst charlesh at psy dot psych dot nova dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 23:59:20 PDT From: "Ken Stuart" Subject: ftp by email FOR ELEPHANT-TALK ----------------- James Dignan writes: > > Toby writes: >> I think transcriptions are best kept at the ftp sites, rather than posted >>to the digest, where they take up a lot of space. -- Toby. > >I agree they take up space but hey, some of us can't get into FTP!!! Not true! You can ftp by e-mail, and it is easy if you know the path and filename of what you want. For more information, e-mail to: ftpmail at decwrl dot dec dot com with the body of the message being: help quit and you will receive instructions. - respect to all, Ken ken at snowcrest dot net (primary address) (if no answer, try ken dot stuart at tigerteam dot org ) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 23:56:37 -0500 From: WELANTZ at aol dot com Subject: No-man Does anyone have any idea if the No-man 'Flowermouth' is available in the U.S.? I've checked around but can't find it. Same with the Anekdoten CD. Just ran into the Rimitti CD with Fripp and the Fowler Bros. plus a host of others. I wasn't sure if this item has appeared in this digest. Vroooming, Bill [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:11:47 -0600 (CST) From: ST56T at Jetson dot UH dot EDU Subject: VROOOM can change your life Hello, all. Last night, I bought VROOOM. I was between soundcheck and showtime for a concert I was playing with my band, Port Radium, at a small cafe. I'd been waiting a long time for VROOOM (but then, haven't we all?), and I was glad to see it in the store. We played the concert, which was terrible. The crowd was the most apathetic I'd ever encountered - one bozo even applauded when I announced that we were taking a break! (We just played one of Houston's better clubs last week to a warm reception, so it's not that we're awful or anything...) I left in extreme depression. My consolation: "Well, at least, I've got VROOOM. It had better be as good as I've been reading..." And it IS. If the 1969-71 Crimson is baroque/romantic, the 1972-4 Crimson is pre-WWII modernism (Joyce, Woolf, TS Eliot, Faulkner), and the 1982-4 Crimson is post-WWII modernism (the Beats, of course), then this is POST-MODERNISM: brutal, out-of-sync, psychotic, frightened (and frightening), searching. BRILLIANT. I only own one other EP that works this well: Sugar's BEASTER. I won't pretend that VROOOM completely reversed my mental state (I took this WAY too hard), but it certainly made it possible to go to bed, content that the act of music-making is indeed worth the time and Discipline that is put in. As a side note, on my first two listens I'm having trouble picking out Trey's work. I have heard his playing on the Sunday All Over The World KNEELING AT THE SHRINE CD, but I'm not recognizing him in the mix. Anything I should be listening for in particular? The two drummers are distinguishible, as are Fripp and Belew, and I hear Levin clearly, but where's Gunn? Is it the high sound featured in "When I Say Stop, Continue" that sounds like a keyboard? Anyway, I just felt a need to share VROOOM's rejuvenating power with the only folks who could understand... Take care. Dolph Chaney st56t at jetson dot uh dot edu the concert turned me into a newt, but I got better. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 23:09:02 EDT From: csavage at cris dot com (CHRIS SAVAGE) Subject: Scaaaarrrry! My thoughts on Vrooom are irrelevant but I thought my 4 year old son summed it up pretty well. I was playing the disk fairly loud when he came into the room and said "Ahh, Papa, this is scary music!" I couldn't have put it better myself! Long live Vrooom... Chris [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 18:59:48 -0600 From: "REX FERMIER" Organization: From IBBS#1 (Chicago) - @ibbs1.com Subject: WHEN I SAY.... Like most people who read Elephant Talk, I have been listening to VROOOM. I have one question (only one?!), and that concerns the song titled, "When I say stop, continue." At first I thought it was funny that most of the band ignored Adrian's instructions for ending the song. Then I wondered, would they have continued if Mr. Fripp had told them to stop? -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ + From IBBS#1 Metro Chicago + + ADDRESS REPLIES TO ID0510 at IBBS1 dot COM (REX FERMIER) + +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:47:11 -0800 From: vance at netcom dot com (Vance Gloster) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #156 The endless sustain is something that's puzzled me as well. I know he used to play a Les Paul Custom, and I read a few years ago that he had a preference for a Japanese copy of the Les Paul called a "Tokai." This .. a Marshall Super Lead. The volume on the guitar has to be turned back slightly (I actually use a volume pedal to achieve this). It still doesn't sound the same as his guitar on the "Great Deceiver" set, which is frustrating because I really like that sound. Does anyone else know anything more about his old setup? In some photos I've seen, it looks like he uses Marshall heads... For that Fripp infinite sustain you need to know just one word: EBow. A handheld electronic string motion stimulator, this device has helped me mimic many of Fripp's infinite sustain lead lines. My favorite is the Red period, and I have used the EBow to duplicate the sound he got on the song Starless (the lead line over the mellotron stuff). I know of no other way to get that sound. Fripp himself has acknowledged that the EBow is one of the tools in the arsenal he calls collectively Frippertronics. In order to get his sound I tend to leave the EBow over one string and play across the entire neck with my left hand on the one string. EBows can be purchased new for somewhere in the range of $50-$100. Good luck! -Vance Gloster vance at netcom dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:14:00 -0800 From: vance at netcom dot com (Vance Gloster) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #156 Whatever happened to these ex-Crimsonites: 1) Jamie Muir 2) John Wetton 3) David Cross ? Also Macdonald and Giles ? After the Red album (and USA), John Wetton and Bill Bruford got together with a couple of Zappa alumni (and briefly Alan Holdsworth) to form the band UK. I still like the first UK album a lot, though the lack of aggressive guitar puts off many Crim-heads. Then John Wetton recorded a solo record that was not released in the US. Many of us felt it was a shameless pop sellout record. Little did we know what was yet to come. Not to keep you in suspense, his next project was Asia ("the first supergroup of the 80s") which I felt was a series of even more shameless pop sellout records. At one point the band fired him for being too fat, this being an unpardonable sin with the 14-year-olds they were targeting. Since then I have not kept track of him. I guess I should not be so hard on him. Most of us seem to be unable to hold onto that "edge" quality much past our 20s with Fripp being a notable exception. On Vroom he shows us he has more of it in his 40s than most ever get. -Vance Gloster vance at netcom dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:33:50 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Various old streams I know - I promised less postings. Flame if you must. I've just completed wading my way through all the back issues of Discipline/ET - the first mailing list that I've considered fascinating enough to do this with. I'd recommend this task to all of youse. Toby, you've done KC proud! I know the following are old threads, but I must make quick comments on 'em... About a year ago, people were hot on whether Wetton had "sold out" and gone soft. In all this, there was no mention of the album Wetton & Manzanera, a collaboration with Roxy Music's Guitarist Phil Manzanera - potentially an inventive mix, but one that proved that, in his heart of hearts, Wetton wants to be the new Billy Joel. LTiA's title was also under scrutiny, yet no-one mentioned that Lark's tongues make beautiful melodies, and aspic is a preservative medium. What better title for a recorded piece of music? Finally, prynhawn da to Mr M P Hughes of Cymru who about six months ago mused: >>>...new Crimson CD called "Frooom" or "Vrooom" depending on who you talk to. >>...if "Vrooom" were a German word, it would be pronounced "Frooom". :-) >...if Froom were a Welsh word, it'd be pronounced "vrooom"! Does Fripp have >any Welsh connections? :-D Um, yes! His mother Edie was born in Abertillery. Edie's father, Joe Green, was Welsh champion pigeon racer, and was a miner. Whyd'ya think Starless and Bible Black was so named, boyo? 8-))) BTW Mitchell Froom is a prominent sound engineer. ;-)). I'll try to cut down. I promise. James Musical recommendation for the day: Jam Science (Shriekback) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 20 Nov 94 20:33:13 EST From: "James W. Mullins" <72752 dot 764 at compuserve dot com> Subject: VROOM is now at Best Buy I have good news for those of us in the US who live near a BEST BUY store:) I work in the music department for the Best Buy here in Bridgeton, MO and I saw at least FIVE copies of VROOM in with the rest of the King Crimson!!!! So be sure and check your local Best Buy. And here's the best part, it's only 14 Bucks here!!!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 20 Nov 1994 00:03:00 +0100 From: MPE at hop dot dinoco dot de (Michael Peters) Subject: Adrian Belew's tuning Does anyone know if Adrian Belew, playing with Crimson, uses the classical guitar tuning or Fripp's new "standard tuning" ? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Michael Peters CIS 100041,247 | | Postfach 600645, 50686 Koeln, Germany mpe at hop dot dinoco dot de | | "Do nothing for as long as possible" (Brian Eno) | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 21 Nov 1994 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) From: MCNICHOT at CGS dot EDU Subject: Hendrix and Vrooom Well a fine little bit of info from Tony in the last letter proves that performers do have access to the internet. As for Hendrix covering "Schizoid Man," I'm sure most of ius have heard the story about Hendrix going to see KC one night in London and after the gig Hendrix came up to Fripp and said he thought they weere great(or something like that) ansd Jimi's Right hand was in a cast and he said something like, "shake my left hand man, it's closer to my heart." to Fripp, so the idea is not totally unrealistic but I personally have never heard one and have listened to a lot of Hendrix as an old rooommate was a fanatic. There is also an eco(woops) industrial psychologist type guy named Victor Vroom who came up with a decision making tree called the normative decision making model or something like that that outlines management decision making for various situations. I know, boring but don't we all love triviata? If anyone is interested, Paul Bowels Bowles also has a collection of short stories out on The Echo Press(ISBN 0-88001-263-3) called "The Delicate Pray," and in cludes some stories from Latin America as well.Gripping stuff. Got my Vrooom and am still getting over the rush.Killer--mcnichot [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 10:07:36 PST From: John Relph Subject: Fripp info from Finland I got this posting in response to the Fripp discography. I hope that you folks can answer this person's questions. -- John P.S. Latest Fripp Discography: 3.4c ------ begin forwarded message --------- Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 09:55:06 +0200 (EET) From: Juha Nieminen To: relph at presto dot ig dot com Subject: Fripp info from Finland hello I got this message from my friend Seppo who asked me to send this to you by e-mail (he don't heve access right now), so this is it. If you like to contact him you can do that through me - OK Here are some additions to your FINE Robert Fripp discography: All times are as indicated on album covers. The bootleg times include applauses, tune ups etc. so basicly there's nothing radically new in the composed tunes. 1979 Four From Exposure (Promotional single/EP, 33 1/3 rpm) 1. You Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette (2:23) 2. Breathless (4:41) 3. Exposure (4:25) 4. Here Comes The Flood (4:01) EG (Polydor) Pro 090 Unauthorised recordings (bootlegs) 1990 Lament (live at Concertbouw, Amsterdam, Holland 23.11.73) 1. Easy Money (5:58) 2. Lament (3:51) 3. Book Of Saturday (2:50) 4. Exiles (5:28) 5. Medley: Mincer/The Talking Drum/Lark's Tongues II (16:28) 6. 21st Century Skizoid Man (8:53) GDR CD 9017 (Great Dane Records) I think that the content of this bootleg is the same as in bootlegs Amsterdam 1973, Cloudy Air and Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale. I read from somewhere that this concert was played on the radio and that's why it was widely bootleged. And as we all know this was the concert, where most of Starless And Bible Black album was recorded. The liner notes in my copy mistakenly lineups the band as follows: Fripp, Cross, Bruford, Wetton and MUIR ?? 1990 The Return Of The King Crimson (live in Frankfurt 1973) 1. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part I (10:22) 2. Easy Money (6:13) 3. Night Watch (5:05) 4. Fracture (11:41) 5. Book Of Saturday (3:05) 6. Lament (4:31) 7. Exiles (13:58) (begins with approx. 7 minute improvisation) 8. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part II (4:58) (tape rans out) CO CD 25120 (Chapter One Digital (??) recordings) This must be the gig in Jahrhundethalle 03.11.1973 because that was the only time in 1973 that Crimson played in Frankfurt. You can hear Fripp saying after Larks Tongues Part I "...we are excited to be in Frankfurt yet again...". One of the million things in life I don't trust are the dates given in bootlegs but in this case I think the place and year match..if it really matters? 1991 Super Golden Radio Shows No 020, Atlanta 1973+Pittsburgh 1975 ?? 1. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part I (10:56) 2. Easy Money (7:06) 3. Train To Health (3:44) (aka Doctor Diamond or Doctor D) 4. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part II (6:37) 5. The Great Deceiver (3:01) 6. Lament (4:05) 7. The Night Watch (4:19) 8. Starless And Bible Black (=Starless) (11:34) CD SGRS Records 020 Here we have a little bit different version, at least what I've heard, of Larks' Tongues Part I because it has a short group improvisation after that demonic guitar passage as in studio version. Yes, demonic indeed, because it sounds to me, and I hate to say this, but Fripp fucks up in that fast guitar part....well, what the hec, nobody's perfect. 1993? The Mince (live at The Rainbow, London, 18.03.1973) Disc One 1. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part I (15:00) 2. Easy Money (6:05) 3. Night Watch (5:10) 4. Fracture (11:15) 5. Book Of Saturday (3:02) 6. Bonus track (?): Improvisation (23:44) Track 6 from Bremen, 17.10.1972 (probably Beat Club) After Larks' Tongues Part I Fripp reads "some press cuttings from America" to the audience so the tune itself lasts approx. 10:40. Disc Two 1. Lament (4:42) 2. Improvisation (12:03) (has the same rhythm loop as Tight Scrummy) 3. Exiles (5:20) 4. Improvisation (6:45) 5. Talking Drum (6:00) 6. Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part II (8:10) 7. Cat Food (6:25) 8. Bonus track: Doctor D (4:15) 9. Bonus track: 21st Century Schizoid Man (7:28) Track 8 & 9 from Berkley, Ca. 16.06.1973 Lineup: Fripp, Cross, Wetton, Bruford SIRA 2CD 27/28 (SIlver RArities) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Cover versions A Finnish singer/songwriter Hector has done a cover version of Epitaph called Epitaph (tuulet kirkuu hautoihin) roughly translated Epitaph (winds scream into the graves) with his own lyrics. It's on his album Liisa Pien (1975) (Little Lisa) which has been reissued on CD in 1990. Asia album (CD) Live In Moscow (at least my copy) is from 1991. Marketed and distributed by Essential Records (EssCD 174). The versions of Starless and Book Of Saturday are a little bit too sweet to my taste but they receive a huge response from the audience and that warms my heart. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Some corrections: * tracks on Peter Hammill's Fool's Mate that Fripp is featured: - Imperial Zeppelin - Sunshine - Child - Viking - The Birds - I Once Wrote Some Poems Charisma CHC2 (???)...no other "serial number-like" marks are not found....at least in my copy. * Centipede: Septober Energy From the original covertext by Keith Tippett: "Special thanks to Bob, who was so busy producing that he couldn't play." * Roches 1979, features Fripp on ELECTRIC guitar and the songs that have electric guitar are: - Hammond Song - Quitting Time All other tracks have acoustic guitars, so.... * Flying Lizards: Fourth Wall Features Fripp on two tracks: - Clide/Spin (3:30) - Lost And Found (2:47) (written Fripp/Cunningham) * Hall & Oates: Along The Red Ledge is released 1978. * John Wetton's Kings Road is released 1987. To follow the logic (tracks Fripp included)... - Book Of Saturday - Starless (only on CD) * Keith & julie Tippett: Couple In Spirits; LP EGED 52 * Various Artists: The Greater Antilles Sampler Features works from artists like Eno, Don Cherry, Terje Rypdal, Portsmouth Symphony etc. recorded 1973-77. Probably released 1977 or 78. Includes also Eno/Fripp: Evensong (from Evening Star). LP Antilles Records AX-7000 Manufactured and distributed by Island. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Two things, that upset me about USA: 1. Is Eddie Jobson really playing on the record; the information on the album cover credit him as "remix assistance"; violin on Larks' Tongues & Schizoid Man and piano on Lament. 2. Is the music REALLY recorded in Providence 30.06.1974? The reason for my doubt is as follows: The Providence concert in The Great Deceiver box set contains the same songs (Larks' II, Lament, Exiles and Easy Money) but DIFFERENT versions than in USA. The only song that is same on both albums is Schizoid Man. The violin solo on Larks' II seems to be almost the same on both versions but Fripp's guitar work is different (all tunes). Easy Money is defenetly a different version so the possible Providence tracks with Schizoid Man are Larks', Lament & Exiles. The best way of finding the differences is by comparing the magnificent Bruford drumming on each versions. In the scrapbook in Frame By Frame (and in Young Persons Guide) it says that "most of USA" was recorded that day. We can say "most" if Schizoid, Larks', Lament and Exiles are from that concert because that's 65,98% of the music on album. But we can't say "most" if Schizoid Man is the only one (and which I do believe...with my own ears...and there's nothing wrong them, yet) because that's only 19.43%. (For example in the case of Starless And Bible Black I dare to say "most" of it was recorded 23.11.1973 because the title track, Fracture, Trio and the beginning of The Night Watch [till the vocal starts, approx. 1:20] make 58,62% of the music on that album. That is of course if scrapbooks and Eric Tamm are telling the truth.) So I say that the only song from Providence is Schizoid Man or my version of USA is something extraordinary (although it is the first album I bought when we throw away the lo-fi and bought our first real hi-fi record player about 20 years ago). Or have Fripp and Jobson done something "Zappasque mutantmixing" by removing original drum tracks and replacing them with drum tracks from other concerts? Or is the whole thing put together with the best bass line from here, the best guitar from there etc. Or did Crimson play TWO concerts that night? Well, maybe we'll find it out, if the reissue of USA is true some day (and I hope so because my vinyl begins to sound like it's from stoneage). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Last minute addition.... Fripp plays also a fabulous monster guitar solo on Distributed Being on Brian Eno's Nerve Net. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and the last minute upsetting. Who has composed the song Under The Sky? On Cheerful Insanity Of Giles, Giles & Fripp it's a Fripp composition and on Pete Sinfield's album Still it says; music: McDonald, Sinfield. -------------------------------------------------------------------- KING CRIMSON rules! Zeppo from Finland. End of file. -------------------------------------------------------------- JUHA NIEMINEN - Educational Technology University of Jyv{skyl{ * Continuing Education Centre * Finland GSM 9500 541 217 (int + 358 500 541 217) ------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:08:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher Of The Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: the bears This week I had the priveledge of hearing The Bears for the first time. I found their album _Rise and Shine_ in the college bookstore for only $8. I can say that I'm pleased. They are just what I look for in a good pop band (if there is such a thing): talented, intelligent musicians who don't take their music too seriously. Adrian is clearly the leader but the other members are by no means secondary. I approve. :) Now, all I need to do is wait for Vrooom to arrive, now that I've ordered it jp mohan grinnell college grinnell, iowa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Maclennan Subject: VROOOM -- Antipodean Impressions Date: 24 Nov 1994 14:49:34 +1200 VROOOM arrived in my mailbox last week (possibly the first copy in New Zealand!) and I've been listening to it on an almost daily basis since. Now, I never cared much for the 80s version of KC. I've never been a fan of Adrian Belew's vocals, and I thought this incarnation of KC sounded too American, too much like a more intellectual Talking Heads (as if they weren't intellectual enough at the time!). Not that I'm dissing Americans or their music, and I was a big T.Heads fan back then, but KC for me have always been one of the most quintessentially English progressive rock groups. So I slipped VROOOM into the CD player with some trepidation.... I needn't have worried. VROOOM is quite simply KC's best work since "Red". Hell, I've even got to like the last track -- it really does stick in your brain! The trio of albums in the 80s might have been a bit lightweight overall, but this is very definitely the goods, much closer in spirit to my favourite KC incarnation, the 72-74 one. I'll be curious to see if they can keep this intensity up for the first "proper" album (and whether or not they'll maintain a stable lineup again this time around -- that was probably the major achievement of the 80s lineup!) I won't rave on about each track -- enough space has been expended in "ET" on that already. All I will say it, it's great to have KC back and in full effect again. As well as VROOOM I got the RFSQ and 1999 albums. These are great also, and the RFSQ one was rather different from the Guitar-Crafty thing I expected. I like it so much I've gone and ordered the video and the T-shirt as well! Incidentally, Guitar Craft fans may or may not know about a NZ group called Gitbox Rebellion, who have a nifty album called "Pesky Digits" out on the local Rattle label. It's members are ex-Guitar Craft students. Roll on KC's New Zealand tour (hint!) -- David Maclennan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 25 Nov 94 12:46:42 +0200 From: ramz at bilbo dot fiz dot huji dot ac dot il (rami) Subject: misc affairs Hello fellow Disciplinarians, - As i do not remember it mentioned before, and as i remember interest in A. Belew's solo material availability: i've seen a CD titled: "Desire of the Rhino King" which includes 21 remastered tracks from the three albums which comprise its name. I can supply technical details if there's interest. - Bought the Cheerful Insanity CD lately, and upon reading J. tracy's liner notes about GGF playing one week for an Italian bar singer called "Hot Lips" Marino (before escaping for their sanity) i thought that "The Sun is Shining" is a grotesque flashback upon the turmoil, which makes it even funnier that it is in the first place! If anybody is interested in the vinyl copy of tCIoGGF, i want to get rid of my bootleged SPA423 copy (includes "Groon" as bonus). Contact me for details (i'm off-line until the start of December). Cheers, o o ^ Rami. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]