From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun Nov 20 11:10:53 1994 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:45:49 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #157 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 157, Friday, 18 November 1994 Today's Topics: comments on VROOOM Vroom impressions for Elephant Talk "Internet" Re: VROOOM! (was: Lark's Tongue In Aspic IV) When I say stop... VROOOM (A Review of the new King Crimson) Michael Brook Another VROOM review Thrak Acoustic Belew? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 18:52:54 -0600 From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) Subject: comments on VROOOM Fellow Crimheads- Here's my impressions after a few listenings to VROOOM. I'm not giving a blow-by-blow review, since that's already been done (and will continue to be done, I imagine). My comments tend to focus on the drumming... that's what usually strikes me first about music. Others will comment on the rest of the band, I have no fears... Packaging: Nice, especially considering this is "just" an EP. Thanks for including the words. Signatures: Hey, I finally have a "Fripp" signature, which as we all know is not the easiest thing to get. Belew's sig hasn't changed since he wrote it on his first solo album... I wondered where I'd seen that before. VROOOM: The sound seems to me to be the Fripp/Belew guitar sound of the 80's Crimson over a very Larks/Red rhythm section, thicker, fuller, and louder. Note to myself: bring earplugs to the concert... this music is loud. I can generally tell Fripp and Belew's guitar styles and sounds apart, from being familiar with their work. Bruford's drumming is very disctinctive -- Mastelloso's parts are therefore whatever doesn't sound like Bruford :-). Levin/Gunn is more difficult for me to hear. In general, there's some nice interplay between Bruford's and Mastelloso's snares -- listen, they're distinctly different sounds! The opening section sounds a bit like Red, and the closing section reminds me of the closing of Larks' Tongues, part III. I also recall another album with a quiet, ambient opening before a putting-the-boot-in first track. I think it was called "In the Court..." or something. Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream: A good song, although it could use a bit of tightening up, I think. A new-sounding "tom" in the percussion section, very noticeable. In the instrumental section, Bruford and Mastelloso have a lot of fun with where they put their snare hits... never quite at the same time. Cage: The music in the verse sounds to me like "what if we played Discipline as fast as we possibly could? Wouldn't that be incredibly funny?" Not a terribly musical song, but that's not the point. Whoosh! Thrak: This song is growing on me. Rather industrial-sounding in places -- almost like a subway train in the percussion. At points, this piece careens nearly out of control, but finds its way back in sync. I note that there is no "keyboard" listed in the instrumentation. Most likely, it's Belew making those keyboard-y noises, although it could be TLev as well. When I Say Stop, Continue: I do believe this is our first example of the 90's Crimson doing a "blow." There is a decidedly improvisational feel to it, especially in light of the ending. Aside to Robert Fripp: please consider including at least one blow in concert... this group could make some very interesting spontaneous music, I think. I would respond "with enthusiasm," certainly! One Time: King Crimson with a Latin beat. Well, that took me by surprise. Catchy tune, though, with some nice lyrics by Belew. Overall impression: I'd say I got my money's worth for this disc. It's short, but the quality is high. (Think of how short the "full" album Beat was!) Raw around the edges, sure, but that's to be expected. This is a much darker Crimson than the 80's outfit. I'm definitely glad Bruford is back -- he really contributes a lot... King Crimson is back, with no compromises. Unless Belew has a hit single hiding somewhere, it will not be a money-making venture, but it will be well-listened to by those that appreciate it. It feels good to talk about "new" King Crimson for the first time in my life (I am 25). Looking forward to the full album, and definitely to seeing these guys live, john nash -===-John R. Nash-==-nash at chem dot wisc dot edu-==-UW-Madison Chem. Dept-===- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 14:21:37 -0500 From: feathers at gate dot net Subject: Vroom impressions for Elephant Talk Well, my copy of _Vrooom_ finally arrived in the mail the other day. Needless to say, this is an important release in progressive circles. A while back, I half-jokingly mentioned to friends that I am very eager to hear _Vrooom_ because I want to know what the next ten years of music will sound like. From Primus to Henry Rollin's Band, I hear a little `Indiscipline' everywhere I turn recently. I was not disappointed. Before hearing _Vrooom_ I wondered if King Crimson could pull it off. Although each incarnation of the King redefines itself, I knew that before _Vrooom_, King Crimson did not have the stranglehold on sheer aggression and abject sonic oppression that they had during the 70s. The 'Discipline' era was something that I enjoyed immensely but in retrospect the pop orientation that they evidenced at times was something that I hoped would not surface in the 90s. I wanted to hear something new. Something from no man's land which would stand well against the music that I've been finding myself drawn to recently: Magma, Etron Fou, Henry Cow, 5uus, Doctor Nerve etc.,. What did I find? King Crimson has changed. Reviews I've read have used the 'Discipline' era and the 'Starless/Red' era as points of reference. But, _Vroom_ is quite different from music of the 'Discipline' era. It does not wear its complexity on its sleeve. Cymbals crash into distorted chordal lines making a wall of sound which, although undeniably more complex than any previous work, does not 'foreground' each instrument in a panorama of clean timbres and space. There are no clearly marked guitar solos. Each instrument does something different but you have to dig into the sound to hear it. The most interesting things are subtle in the mix. The comparisions we've seen to the Starless/Red era are apt, but to me it seems that there is much more going on here. The 90s Crimson is Crimson by subtraction. They have the energy and aggression of the 70s era without the classical and jazz/rock references. When I listen to _Fracture_, some details and indeed the structuring of the music itself remind me of classical music. _Lark's Tongue In Aspic Pt II_ in its softer violin driven portions invariably reminds me of Mahavishnu Orchestra. While those were both extremely structured composed pieces, the same patterns seemed to appear in their improvised material. It is as though King Crimson set out in the 70s to create a new form of rock music based on improvisation but the vocabularies of classical music and jazz kept sneaking in. _Vrooom_'s 'Thrak' in contrast, is the new band: the music turns and pivots like sinister machine, exposing a new face of detail every few seconds using only a Crimson vocabulary. On _Vrooom_, the King seems to have finally achieved its earlier aim. I sense a maturity to this release which I never missed in King Crimson until I heard it. The band sounds comfortable. They are not trying to impress upon us that they can toe the line between pop and experimentalism. They proved that in the Eighties. In addition, the music as a whole manifests a seriousness and depth that Fripp seems to have been cultivating for a while. I can not help mentioning the difference in tone between Fripp's first tape delay work on _No Pussyfooting_, and recent works such as 'Bringing Down the Light', 'Threnody for Souls in Torment' and passages >from _Vroom_. This progression does not seem to be Fripp's alone. There is a depth to Adrian Belew's vocal performances which is stunning and touching. 'One Time' is a masterpiece of understatement which seems poised to replace Matte Kudasai as King Crimson's best vocal reflective interlude. King Crimson is older and wiser. The members approach music with a wealth of life experience and we can hear it. The heart is more connected to the hands, and the feet continue to move vigorously. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:11:01 -0500 From: Tony Levin Subject: Duet Hello. Trey Gunn and I just finished recording a Stick duet for the new Crimson album. Don't know if it'll make it on, but we thought you'd like the name, "Internet." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu (Scott T. Anderson) Subject: VROOOM (A Review of the new King Crimson) Date: 9 Nov 1994 20:38:24 GMT Organization: Calvin Shulman Fan Club This is not "Talk." It is not "Black Moon." It is not even "We Can't Dance." VROOOM is the new EP CD from King Crimson. You've surely heard about it, but now it is out in the hands of mortals like me. It is pure King Crimson. They haven't lost anything (I'd say they've gained). The current lineup is the fabled "Double Trio": two guitars, two sticks, and two drummers. Fripp and Belew, Levin and Trey Gunn, Bruford and Pat Mastelotto. This new era of King Crimson is sure to be a delight, if VROOOM is any indication. After a 17-second untitled track that introduces the album quietly, the band bursts forth with the title track. It is pure Red-era King Crimson, but doubled. The relatively "canned" sound of the '80s is gone, but the awesome power of those musicians, plus the timeless sound of mid-'70s King Crimson, and some fresh sounds courtesy of the two rookies, are all in full force. This is a fantastic introduction to the latest incarnation of quite possibly the definitive progressive rock band. "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream" is a somewhat funky tune, continuing to merge the old (including an imitation of Greg Lake's megaphone vocals from "21st Century Schizoid Man") with the new. Belew's singing is better than ever on this album, and the song as a whole is great. "Cage" is a short, strange, humorous, complex piece. I swear I heard a riff from "Fracture" in it (or maybe it was in "Thrak," I'm not sure at this point). "Thrak" is to '90s King Crimson what "Fracture" was to '70s KC. It is harsh, heavy, at times scary, extremely rhythmically complex (taking KC polyrhythm to a whole new level), and thoroughly impressive. "When I Say Stop, Continue" is a great improv, that starts out with a droning stick rumble and great guitar effects, and builds into a rocking jam. Near the end, Belew exclaims, "Okay, now come to a dead stop! One, two, three, four... Fripp and perhaps Levin or Gunn comply, but the rest go on for a bit (hence the title). It's interesting... this totally imposing improv comes to a hilarious conclusion. "One Time" is almost Latin feeling. It is really a beautiful song, showing that KC is as diverse as ever. Great singing by Belew, great playing by the band... it leaves the listener wanting more. But the 31 minutes are up. What more can I say? This is an absolute must for any King Crimson fan. I can't wait for the full-length album (and the TOUR!). -- Scott T. Anderson sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu The "T" stands for "Toast." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: 2f63beaumier at vms dot csd dot mu dot edu Subject: Re: VROOOM! (was: Lark's Tongue In Aspic IV) Date: 9 Nov 1994 23:14:08 GMT Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services FINALLY!!! I opened the kiester today and voila! VROOOM! Absolutely everything that I've read about it is true. It is just great full of technical wizardry and messedup funny lyrics and killer polyrythms--I just can't wait until the full fledger comes out. There is a little bit of everything and each style of music that Robert has been focusing his playing on: a little classic-little jazz-little blues- and some butt kicking fusoid(Crimsoid) rock guitar sound (I'll bet he fell off his stool playing VROOOM!--Also, that dang did it again: when I popped the disk in, there was 17 seconds of what appear to be Frippertronics then, without warning--POW!!!!-- Vroom. I won't spoil too much more but man! I am so glad that Bruford is back and he and Pat Mastelotto are playing with avengence--absolutely great!--There are some great even dare I say Bluesy Bass parts in bits of songs --GREAT!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 19:29:51 -0600 From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) Subject: When I say stop... I just thought I'd share a thought that occurred to me while listening to the end of "When I Say Stop, Continue." At the point where half the band drops out, leaving Fripp and others still playing, Adrian should have looked serious and said in deadpan: "Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but restraint is also required." ..and then ducked to avoid the things thrown at him by the other musicians.... It's only talk, john -===-John R. Nash-==-nash at chem dot wisc dot edu-==-UW-Madison Chem. Dept-===- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 17:07:17 -0500 From: feathers at gate dot net Subject: VROOOM (A Review of the new King Crimson) My copy of _Vrooom_ finally arrived in the mail the other day. Needless to say, this is an important release in progressive circles. A while back, I half-jokingly mentioned to friends that I was very eager to hear _Vrooom_ because I wanted to know what the next ten years of music will sound like. >From Primus to Henry Rollins Band, I hear a little `Indiscipline' everywhere I turn these days. Now I've listened to _Vrooom_ and I'm not disappointed. A while ago I wondered if the new King Crimson would really push the boundaries. Although each incarnation of the King redefines itself, I knew that before _Vrooom_, King Crimson did not have the stranglehold on sheer aggression and abject sonic oppression that they had during the 70s. The King Crimson material of the 80s was something that I enjoyed immensely but in retrospect the pop orientation that they evidenced at times was something that I hoped would not surface in the 90s. I wanted to hear something new. I wanted to hear something from 'No Man's Land' which would stand well against the music that I've been finding myself drawn to recently: Magma, Etron Fou, Henry Cow, 5uus, Il Berlione, Doctor Nerve etc.,. What did I find? King Crimson has changed. Reviews I've read have used the 'Discipline' era and the 'Starless/Red' era as points of reference. However, _Vroom_ is quite different from music of the 'Discipline' era. It does not wear its complexity on its sleeve. Cymbals crash into distorted chordal lines making a wall of sound which, although undeniably more complex than any previous work, does not 'foreground' each instrument in a panorama of clean timbres and space. There are no clearly marked guitar solos. Each instrument does something different but you have to dig into the sound to hear it. The most interesting things are subtle in the mix. The comparisions we've seen to the Starless/Red era are apt, but to me it seems that there is much more going on here. The 90s Crimson is Crimson by subtraction. They have the energy and aggression of the 70s era without the classical and jazz/rock references. When I listen to _Fracture_, some details and indeed the structuring of the music itself remind me of classical music. _Lark's Tongue In Aspic Pt II_ in its softer violin driven portions invariably reminds me of Mahavishnu Orchestra. The same trend seemed to appear in their improvised material. It is as though King Crimson set out in the 70s to create a new form of rock music based on improvisation but the vocabularies of classical music and jazz kept sneaking in. _Vrooom_'s 'Thrak' in contrast, is the new band. The music turns and pivots like sinister machine, exposing a new face of detail every few seconds using only a Crimson vocabulary. On _Vrooom_, the King seems to have finally achieved its earlier aim. I sense a maturity now in King Crimson which I never felt was missing in their music until I heard it in the release. The band sounds comfortable. They are not trying to impress upon us that they can toe the line between pop and experimentalism. They proved that they could in the Eighties. In addition, the music as a whole manifests a seriousness and depth that Fripp seems to have been cultivating for a while. I can not help mentioning the difference in tone between Fripp's first tape delay work on _No Pussyfooting_, and recent works such as 'Bringing Down the Light', 'Threnody for Souls in Torment' and passages from _Vrooom_. This progression does not seem to be Fripp's alone. There is a depth to Adrian Belew's vocal performances which is stunning and touching. 'One Time' is a masterpiece of understatement which seems poised to replace 'Matte Kudasai' as King Crimson's best vocal reflective interlude. King Crimson is older and wiser. Its members approach music with a wealth of life experience and we can hear it. The heart is closer to the hands, and the feet continue to move vigorously. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Alister Ling at Edmn Subject: Michael Brook Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 13:51:00 MST Bruce is posting via my email: =>Fortunately, the other guitarist, Michael Brooke(s?), I think, was artist =>extraordinaire! He had a half-rack of toys, at least several loops, and =>was the opening act as well as the "rhythm" guitarist for S/F. =>Comparing the two, I'd call Brooke(s?) the artist and Fripp the =>technician. (Yes, I dare this blasphemy! It's *my* opinion!:) Hi, I'm a big Michael Brook fan. At the risk of spreading the flame, I agree wholeheartedly with your artist v. technician statement. I saw him perform live in Edmonton in 1992 November. Like Daniel Lanois, Brook is a Canadian guitarist who is perhaps better known for his production work of other artists. He also is known for his invention of the "infinite guitar", which is also played by The Edge of U2. To date Brook has released three albums: =Hybrid= (1987); =Cobalt Blue= (1992); =Live at the Aquarium= (1992). In both studio albums, contributing musicians included both Lanois and Brian Eno, so it is obvious that Brook learned some of his production skills from the masters. =Hybrid= is very much ambient music (along the lines of Eno's "Music for Airports", etc.). The other two are much more accessible and are *highly* recommended. The albums are instrumental only, as Brook does not sing. They are almost uncategorizable: I have seen him in record stores under "Alternative", "Pop", "World Beat", "Adult Contemporary" (argh!), "New Age" (double aarrgghh!!). His live show consisted of just himself, playing the infinite guitar (whose bottom string is another Brook invention called the "buzz bass"). He also had a few foot pedals and a little black box that did some interesting magic tricks. Brook would lay down a riff of some kind which would then be looped, allowing him to play additional parts over top. There were also some parts which had to be canned - percussion, etc. It was fascinating to watch. Do I understand from this digest that he is playing somewhere in the mix of the Fripp/Sylvian live album? I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows of other work done by this talented and diversified musician. Bruce McCurdy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Crimson at eworld dot com Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 17:02:07 PST Subject: Another VROOM review A non-musicians' thoughts on VROOM (after about 10 listens)... Overall, I'm disappointed. It seems that the collection exudes mostly muscle and anger, and is in some appreciable need of contrasting nuance, texture, and emotion. Most of the pieces sound like cuts that wouldn't make a regular album release. Actually, the pieces seem to be in various stages of completion. As much as I anticpiated the release (I ordered via mail and still grabbed a copy when I first saw it at Tower), I almost wish they waited until they spent more time together before putting this out. It doesn't help that the recording is harsh, and the instrumentation is often not articulated (was that the idea?) The title track VROOM, and Cage seem to have the greatest potential, and Thrak, while quite challenging, becomes muddled and doesn't reach a satisfying resolution by its end. (BTW - Is VROOM the mysterious LTiA 4 mentioned in a previous ET? - the final part reminds me of LTiA 3...) Sex.... sounds like the most "finished" cut on the CD, but, despite all the activity, isn't particulary interesting melodically or rhythmically. In certain ways, it's the 90's version of Indiscipline, with it's alternating parts of restraint and cacaphony. But Indiscipline contained (and much of their other work did as well) a compelling contrast of chaos and order, of discordance and beauty. Beat's Requiem is a good example. Not an easy piece for a first listen, but the contrast of RF's part to the building chaos around it, and its final, rather mournful resolution, is the type of contrast that is missing from something like Thrak. In an interview with Brian Eno and Jon Hassell several years ago, Hassell commented on what was wrong with so much of the New Age stuff that floats out there. "There isn't any evil in the music" was something along the lines of his comment - it was all too good and sweet. The lack of contrast made it less interesting. Perhaps in the opposite way, that's what's happened with VROOM. I guess what's most disappointing is that the potential for a wide range of texture and was incredible - two guitarists, two bassists, and two drummers. There dosen't seem to be a lot of drumming interplay, and can anyone say where two bassists are? I mean, it's LOUDER than the previous four-piece unit, but is it any richer? Perhaps this new sound will reach back and rekindle an audience put-off by the 80's incarnation. In a lot of the pre-release discussions here and elsewhere, there seemed to be a fair number of comments revealing "gratification" that KC was returing to a Red-era sound, and not the 80's sound. My prejeduice is that I like the 80's sound quite well. There's so much texture to listen to; months after enjoying RF's and AB's guitarwork, I began focusing on TL's parts, and then BB's, and then I caught other background textures...While some of that exists on VROOM, there's too much drive without enough steering. Now having said all this, I still think VROOM's more interesting to listen to than much of anything else out there. And that's not a contradiction, just an indication to the standard I use when I listen to KC and RF. I'm also hopeful that by the time the studio release hits in the Spring, contrast, articulation, and interplay will take a more important role in composition. Am I being too harsh since this is a calling card and not a love letter? Is that designation an acknowledgment that you're listening to a work in progress? Should that make one's reaction different? I'm a laserdisc consumer, and VROOM is sort of like the supplemental material on a special edition, but without the main film. It might be a lot more interesting when compared to the context of the finished work, which in this case, is still yet to come. Greg B. (ready and waiting for incoming...) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:27:53 +0000 From: GREGORY Subject: Thrak I have transcripted thrak: R. Fripp : Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak A. Belew :Oooooothrack thrack thrak thrak thrak thrak thrack T. Gunn : thraketty-thrakaetty thracketty-thrak etty- T. Levin : THRAK thrak THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK etty P. Mastalleto : THRAKTHRAKTHRAKTHRAKTHRAKTHRAKTHRAK ETTYTHRAK B. Bruford : etty-etty etty thrak! ettyetty etty thrak R Fripp Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak Thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak thrak etty thrak thrak thrak etty-etty thraketty thraketty etty ettythrak THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK THRAK-THRAK ETTY-THRAK THRAK THRAK ETTY etty-etty thraSH! SMASH! SMASH! THRASH! THRAK THRAK THRAK... ...and so on. This is one of those tracks which just when you thought bands had used up all the ideas around and you feel you are losing slightly your enthusiasm and inspiration from music this just hits you ..THRAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW it actually made my knees weak from complete musical revelation and inspiration and freshness, do not go without this album. The two, three waxing and waning rhythms are AMAZING and work in a completely new way.AAAARGGH!!! I CANNOT CONTAIN MY ENTHUSIASM ITS BEYOND WORDS%^*$^*%^*&%^*%* !#^$%&&^@%!@%@!@!!@%!%!#^#^!#^?!"#<"^#<^:"#^"#P:^!"#P:"^#"^<#:^#": !#:"^#":^>"#:^"#:^"!#:":!"#:!"!#"(*($(&(%":983176djfkpwgis!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 Matt matthew.gregory(a)afrc.ac.uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:06:23 +0200 (IST) From: "Taylor,Rod;=8728883" Subject: Acoustic Belew? Down here, I'm so alone with my fear. I've nowhere, nowhere to hide. I'd give you all of my dreams if you'd help me Find the door that doesn't lead me back again... ...take me away... Peter Gabriel Just wondering - do you know anything about the Adrian Belew acoustic album, and/or where I could order a copy? I haven't seen it here, but I'd LOVE to get a copy! Any help would be great. rodt [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]