From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun Nov 20 11:10:48 1994 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:00:34 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #156 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 156, Friday, 11 November 1994 Today's Topics: Gordon Haskell, Islands "Neal ..." "Jazz" Reviews ET v94 #155: Great Issue! Fripp's Guitar Sound VROOM a Dutch name transcriptions Authors (warning no Fripp content) KING CRIMSON: TOM PHILLIPS/PAUL BOWLES Vroom! Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #155 Re: The Sheltering Sky, Bobby/Ade interaction Tom Phillips Electric Violinist Covers "Red". RFSQ: the bridge between tom phillips elephant talk --sheltering sky Rumours from an unlikely source Belew et al Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #155 KC Anglagaard/Anekdoten Humuments and FTP by email Some notes on Tom Phillips submission to elephant talk Boots & Lists & Addresses More Fripp from out on the Rim Somewhere.... In the Court of... KC on Letterman Wow! Ahhhh... new King Crimson at last! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 04 Nov 94 17:15:40 EST From: Suntower Systems <70242 dot 1520 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Gordon Haskell, Islands My fave KC album, I think, is Lizard. It combines a lot of the adventurousness of their later stuff, with lots of different styles, interesting poetry, and some really good melodies reminiscent of the first two records. Questions: 1) Whatever happened to Gordon Haskell, bass player and singer. I thought he did a great job on Lizard and yet I never see him mentioned anywhere, only Wetton and Lake. 2) Believe it or not based on what I just said, I have never heard 'Islands'. Would someone give me a quick review? Is it similar to Lizard, or more in the direction of Larks Tongues In Aspic? Thanks, jc PS. I sent in my check for VROOOM a while ago and haven't gotten anything yet. Should I be worried? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:11:39 -0500 From: Plj1582 at aol dot com Subject: "Neal ..." Regarding the following letter: From: ) I have been asked to explain the pun of the title 'Neal andJack and Me.' After much deliberation, I have decided to just come right out and say that the title could be pronounced 'Kneelin', Jackin' me.' ..." I have consulted (psychically) with Adrian Belew, who says that the title was a mis-print -- what he actually sang was, "Neal was faxin' me ... about some liver." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: d dot zemel at genie dot geis dot com Date: Sat, 5 Nov 94 05:01:00 UTC Subject: "Jazz" Reviews A friend of mine who's a jazz flutist gave me a copy of Jazziz, a jazz magazine he gets, and as I was leafing through it, I was surprised to see reviews of two albums that I wouldn't have expected to see reviewed in a strictly jazz publication (although it does make sense) Here they are: The Robert Fripp String Quintet: The Bridge Between Leave it to Robert Fripp to form a drumless rock chamber ensemble that covers material by J.S. Bach, the Ventures, Sonny Rollins, and some originals reminiscent of King Crimson. As this year's most eclectic guitar recording, The Bridge Between proves a delight throughout, particularly in the interplay between Fripp and stick player Trey Gunn (who also worked with Fripp in his recent collaboration with David Sylvian and has joined the renewed, six-member version of King Crimson). Fripp trades takes between electric and acoustic, while members of the California Guitar Trio (Bert Lams, Paul Richards, and Hideyo Moriya)---all former Fripp "Guitar Craft" students---dive into a well- orchestrated fray with frenzied picking. This is what a well- rounded "New Adult Contemporary" album should really sound like-- -music never too shy to blast with wanton, intelligent ferocity. The music shifts between overwhelming displays of group technique, replete with archetypal, menacing Fripp electric solos, to elegant renderings of Bach parlor standards, a rich assortment of originals by the ensemble's members, and others by absent Fripp students, like Curt Golden's "Bicycling to Afghanistan." This formidable, modern chamber ensemble, not unlike the Kronos Quartet, can effectively play and interpret several musical genres; and its members have also discovered the secret of genuinely rocking without stacks of Marshall amps. Bill Bruford's Earthworks: Live Stamping Ground During the seventies, drummer Bill Bruford gained notoriety as a member of the three most influential and popular art rock bands in history (Yes, King Crimson and Genesis). Since the mid- eighties, however, Bruford has fronted the eclectic jazz band Earthworks, whose unique style has led to justifiable critical acclaim. Live Stamping Ground, the fourth release from Earthworks, captures the group during a series of concert dates in 1992. As a concert recording, Live Stamping Ground showcases the group's exceptional interplay and ability to create unique sound prints without significant post-production. It also provides the opportunity to play "spot the influence," as Earthworks draws on every available source of inspiration from mainstream to free jazz, classical to world music, ballads to electronic experimental music. What separates Earthworks from other eclectic jazz acts is they are able to create an aura unique to the group through Bruford's always interesting percussion, including chordal drums, the backdrops provided by Django Bates' keyboards, the solid bass work of Tim Harries, and the standout soloing of saxophonist Iain Bellamy. The only real complaint with this release is that the band sometimes gets lost in free jazz forays that don't go very far. (I thought you all would be interested!) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 21:13:36 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: ET v94 #155: Great Issue! Just a general comment that I truly appreciate Elephant Talk in general and having just finished reading through #155, felt oblidged to post a "thank you" to Toby and all the folks on this "alias".... I know, "touch wood" -- but it's so refreshing to read a music group's digest and not only get good value from the info, not only enjoy the fun turns of phrase and interesting posting styles, but also *NOT* have to wade through pointless rants and indiscriminant and offensive "flames." Enough said for now. Back to Learner-Lurk Mode, for now. THANKS! -John (Still have my original, vintage "ITCOTCK" vinyl, from it's original release...and it still causes the hair to stand on the back of my neck just hearing or even thinking about its tunes...oh, yes, I was a young adult when I bought it, upon release, so I guess I'm one of those "getting older" folks, right?!) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 05 Nov 94 01:01:39 CDT From: Eric Welsh Subject: Fripp's Guitar Sound The endless sustain is something that's puzzled me as well. I know he used to play a Les Paul Custom, and I read a few years ago that he had a preference for a Japanese copy of the Les Paul called a "Tokai." This would be partly responsible for the sustain. I read somewhere that in the early 70's he used a "Foxx" fuzz pedal. I've never used one of these myself, so I don't know how important this was to his sound. The only way I've been able to approximate that level of sustain is by playing my Les Paul through an analog compressor, then into a handmade fuzz box, then into a Marshall Super Lead. The volume on the guitar has to be turned back slightly (I actually use a volume pedal to achieve this). It still doesn't sound the same as his guitar on the "Great Deceiver" set, which is frustrating because I really like that sound. Does anyone else know anything more about his old setup? In some photos I've seen, it looks like he uses Marshall heads... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 05 Nov 1994 15:13:51 +0100 (CET) From: Gerard van den Berg Subject: VROOM a Dutch name On Oct. 29, 1994, Tim Szeliga wrote: > By the way, I went to grade school with a Colin Vroome. It's a good solid > dutch name (or is it flemish?). Actually, "Vroome" is not a common Dutch surname (e.g. the Amsterdam phone book doesn't have any entries with this name). Relatively common alternatives are "De vroome" (11 entries) and...VROOM (!) (50 entries). The largest and best-known chain of department stores in The Netherlands is called "Vroom and Dreesmann". As a high-school kid I worked in the books & records section during summer holidays, selling amongst other things King Crimson records... I don't think "Vroome" is a common Flemish name either. Also, "Vroom" may be more common in Germany than it is in Holland; I think I once heard that the founders of "Vroom and Dreesmann" were immigrants from Germany. Best wishes to you all, Gerard van den Berg Dept. of Econometrics, Free University Amsterdam email vandenberg at sara dot nl [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ckitchen at merle dot acns dot nwu dot edu Subject: transcriptions Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:54:07 -0600 (CST) I am wondering if any of you have transcriptions of KC tunes that are written on staff paper insted of tablature, as I am not a guitarist and thus I don't read tab. I am particularily interested in Discipline and Fracture, but just about anything would be fantastic. Please email me or post a response. thanks. Andrew Kitchen akitchen at umich dot edu ckitchen at merle dot acns dot nwu dot edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Jazz isn't dead--It just smells funny." -FZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:35:15 -0700 From: David Ewing Subject: Authors (warning no Fripp content) Rami writes: > p.s. i think that Bowels(?) is also the one who has written "The > Collector", upon which an excellant film was based back in the late 60s > (with Samantha Eager i recall). No, the author of "The Collector" was John Fowles (who also wrote "The Magus", "The French Lieutenant's Woman", "The Ebony Tower", "A Maggot", etc. *************************************************************************** David A. Ewing Avalanche Development Company david at avalanche dot com Boulder, Colorado *************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 5 Nov 94 18:05:49 GMT From: Rupert Loydell Subject: KING CRIMSON: TOM PHILLIPS/PAUL BOWLES Tom Phillips is an English painter/composer, still painting, with recent major shows certainly here in England. 'A Humument' is a permanently changing project he has undertaken which hass seen two different versions published by Thames & Hudson (I believe one is still in print). He uses a Victorian novel and paints on their pages, leaving "rivers" [his word] of text - various characters recur throughout, but there is little sense of plot or narrative - it's pretty much a loose arrangement of scenes. There's also been a book called 'The heart of the Humument' featuring miniatures from it; a big monograph on him; a book 'Texts' which features a lot of his photos and paintings from the 70s and their sources/reasoning; and an expensive (several hundred pounds) art folio of at least one of his projects: illustrations for Dante's Inferno. Much of his work is conceptual in nature (eg returning to the same spot the same day every year to photo the view to see how it's changed; using remaindered paint to mix greys at the end of the day and painting stripe paintings called 'Terminal Greys'). He wrote an opera called 'Irma' (who is a character in 'A Humument'; the score is made in the same way as the book) which was first issued on Brian no's Obscure label, and more recently was redone for - I think - something ike R=E9 Records in England; I think by Gavin Bryars. There were also several performances around the time of the new recording (late 80s). Paul Bowles is a composer, yes (some is still available on classical labels) but principally known as a writer (as was his wife, Jane Bowles - good short stories). He lives in Tangiers, and was visited by many of the Beats - such as Ginsberg and Burroughs - one suspects partly because of the availability of boys and drugs there! Most of Bowles' works deal with the psyche of natives and visitors to Tangiers; he also translates some native Tangier writers for US/British publication. A Sheltering Sky is pretty much about a young couple who get 'seduced' by the desert. The wife also gets sdeuced (literally) by a Bedouin camel driver, after her husband dies. The novel is like the film, panoramic, and in many ways "vague" - more a study of mood than anything else, of the magic of foreign climes, and a psychoanalyitical study of a young woman abroad. It's not a hard read at all, and well worth looking at. But don't ask me what relation it has to King Crimson; perhaps Fripp simply read it and was inspired [or perhaps it links to Gurdjieff and his visits to desert places. Hope this helps. Rupert Loydell RML at madbear dot demon dot co dot uk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:18:39 -0600 From: eclark at mail dot utexas dot edu (Industry) Subject: Vroom! I'm looking for a copy of Vroom. I'm willing to trade for it. I have a KC boot leg from 1984, it has mostly songs from Discipline and Three of a Perfect Pair. The sound quality is pretty good and it's about 90 min long. Any one willing to trade let me know. -Industry [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 13:35:40 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #155 > > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 10:24:59 CST > From: oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com > Subject: Thrak, Tamm > > As for the Tamm book, Fripp has read it. He said that it was more a book > about Tamm than a book about Fripp and he did not recommend it. > > That's all for now, > david That's rather disingenuous of Mr. Fripp, since a recurring motif throughout the book is how he refused to speak to Mr. Tamm to any significant degree. Thus Tamm was pretty much left to his own deviced (and scholarship), and I'd say he did a pretty good job. His musical analysis os such works as "Starless' would doubtless be of interest to any KC fan, whether said analysis is Fripp-endorsed or not. The chapters on Tamm's experience with Guitar Craft, and his comically futile efforts to get a straight answer from Fripp on *any* subject, are handled with good humor and are well-told. The only real head-scratcher in the book is when Tamm fails to realize he's listening to Larks' Tongues Pt II at 45 rpm, instead of at the normal speed! > > From: (Frank Carvalho ) > Subject: Cadence and Cascade chords > Date: Mon Oct 31 16:59:18 1994 > > Hi there! > > The debate about Fripps guitar sound still puzzles me. I am sure that he is > able to turn his guitar up and down using volume pedals, and STILL achieve > these remarkably sustained notes. If you turn down the volume, the feedback > effect will disappear. I doubt that this is the only trick he uses. I am > pretty sure that he is using a fuzz pedal to create the guitar sound (I > mean the tonal qualities of the sound), but the explanation of how he > obtains the length of the notes must rely on something else as well. Anyway > the solution has to be pretty simple, since his sound is so DRY (Hear for > instance the end of the sustained solo in the Letters song from > Islands. That is a very dry guitar sound). Maybe it's a combination of extreme compression coupled with distortion; I know that if I combine these two on an electric bass, I can get 'infinite' sustain at low volume levels. > > [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 05 Nov 1994 14:40:04 -0500 (EST) From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: Re: The Sheltering Sky, Bobby/Ade interaction For Jon Mohan, asking about Fripp/Belew interactions: one of my favorite KC items is watching "The Sheltering Sky" performed on the better of the two 80's KC videos: The Noise, August 1982, in Frejus, France. It's great to watch not only fingers, but the movement of people across the stage as the songs changes. Also to see the different parts being played. About the high end interaction: don't forget Levin, who is in there on the high-end with the left hand on the Stick. Basically, most of the soloing is Fripp. Adrian starts the song with the rhythm and the main theme variations are by Robert, and are repeating after frenzied soloing by him at the end. The lead parts which are Adrian's are the first set (I think) of heavily distorted atmospheric ascensions ( I don't have any better musical vocabulary to describe it). Fripp then takes these over, I believe, then solos on his regular buzzing sound, then into the main themes a la the beginning. Bill and Tony are also very interesting to watch. Bill starts the song and ends the song by taking center stage with his miced portable slit-drum; when Tony is playing right hand lower notes Bill and Tony stand together on one side of the stage, but towards the end, when Tony is only playing high left-hand notes, he walks over closer to Robert and Adrian, and Bill is left alone to hold down the rhythm. An interesting aside about the slit drum: on the recorded version you can tell he's using two hands (also on "Two Hands" haw haw) but in the live one, he's holding it with one and playing with the other, very admirably so. The recorded version also contains that metronomic "tink" which plagues most of the Discipline record and "Heartbeat". As for the guitar sound of Robert and Adrian, they use some steups that are exactly the same I believe -- those "distorted atmospheric ascensions" I described are pretty much the same sound -- and if you aren't watching it it's hard to know who goes first and who goes second, if indeed they do switch off during the studio version. On an aside, I thought "The Sheltering Sky" film was fantastic, although flawed. The basic premise of the book is the frailty of existence; the sky is described as "sheltering" by a character because of the suspicion that it is merely a thin layer protecting us from a terrible (existentialist?) void. King Crimson is of course right at home here. The film ends with the narrator (author Paul Bowles, who must have approved of the film as he did of the KC song) indicating the finite nature of a life by mentioning that the number of sunrises you watch in your lifetime is a terribly finite number. It's hard to explain but it's a chilling thought, bringing together with some success elements of a movie which were a bit scattered. Jeff [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 5 Nov 94 16:51:58 -0800 From: walters at ella dot mills dot edu (Timothy Walters) Subject: Tom Phillips James Dignan asks: >I'm trying to find out something about Tom Phillips (the guy who did the >cover for Starless & B B). I know he put out a book called A Humument, from >which the "This night woulds time" quote is taken. Who exactly is he, and >is the book still available? Tom Phillips was, among other things, Eno's professor at art school. The cover of _Another Green World_ is a detail from one of his paintings. I have his edition of Dante's _Inferno_, and it is probably the most amazing book I own. Not only did do 138 brilliant illustrations, highly eclectic but nevertheless unified, but he translated it as well. It must be seen to be believed. It's from Thames & Hudson in New York, and the ISBN is 0-500-01362-4. I got a remaindered copy, though, so it may no longer be available. In the _Inferno_, as well as in _A Humument_ (which I don't have), the text snippets (i.e., "this night wounds time,") are all taken from one source, a Victorian novel by one W.H. Mallock entitled _A Human Document_. In Phillips' words: "Having once boasted that Mallock's turgid text was an inexhaustible mine I here put it to its sternest test, to parallel the visual commentary of the plates with verbal glosses that might act as an alternative line of markers as the reader follows Dante's journey. I have been using Mallock's book now for twenty years; another twenty or so and we both might make it to Paradise." I believe he also collaborated with Peter Greenaway on a TV version of the Inferno. Tim walters at mills dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mathias at tarkus dot ocis dot temple dot edu (mathias thallmayer) Subject: Electric Violinist Covers "Red". Date: Sun, 6 Nov 94 15:43:11 EST Electric violin player Marc Wood performs King Crimson's "Red" on his new album "Against The Grain" with his group Wood (Tom Kaz: Bass and Vocals; Dave Lewitt: Percussion). Wood gets very close in duplicating Fripp's guitar tone on "Red" on his violin (there are no guitars on the album). There are some other Crimson influences. For example, the intro to one song sounds very similar to the USA version of "Lark's Tongues In Aspic, Pt. II". Another intro is very "Red"-ish. There are other short references throughout. However, I would be hesitant to recommend this album to a Crimson fan as these elements do not dominate. It is not an easy album to describe as it has progressive elements, progressive heavy metal, hard rock, and other bits. -- Mathias mathias at tarkus dot ocis dot temple dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 07 Nov 1994 09:53:18 +1000 From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: RFSQ: the bridge between if you haven't yet - BUY THIS ALBUM. obviously i haven't heard vroom yet, but otherwise i must push this albumas mr fripp's most important recent one. i have had the opportunity to listen to tbb, ffwd and damage, and recommend them in the reverse order. damage is an excellent live album, but doesn't add much to either the first day or the other sylvian tracks. ffwd is a brilliant orb album which uses fripp to a perfect degree for the music - as mentioned previously there are some very fripp/eno, fripp tracks, and some very orby tracks - but an excellent ambient album. the bridge between is a fantastic album - live but you wouldnt guess (for the majority of us who weren't there). the music is a mixture of some crafty guitarist type tracks, a stick solo (i assume - bach arranged gunn), and some fripp-ambient tracks. the threnody for souls in torment (the title, i think) is unlike anything else fripp has done - the title is very appropriate - slow, mournful, draining. people at the time said you couldn't tell which was fripp, and that the trio were like accolytes (i recall) - whatever, the sound develops and extends earlier fripp and crafty albums. but of course, you will buy all three!! by the way - fripp appears on a couple of tracks on the grid: evolver album. jeremy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 07 Nov 1994 10:19:35 +1000 From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: tom phillips james dignan asked about TP a little on tom phillips. he is an english artist who would it some senses be termed conceptual - he does series of things. one for example was a series of pictures of people on parkbenches enlarged from postcards, another of union jacks. in the late sixties he decided to 'work' the first book he found for thru'pence (i think) at a second hand book shop. he found the human monument, by the name escapes me, and has used it ever since for all his woks. the humament (huma[n docu]ment) has been published in two veraions (the second having a percentage different from the first) and consists of a working of every page - he joins text up to form 'poetic' senteces, or groups of sounds, words etc and then hides the rest of the page - initially by crossing out, latterly by various art. it can be read through - there are recurring characters - or dipped into. it should still be available. there have been some spin offs the heart of a humument - workings on 1" square pieces of text dante's inferno - phillips' translated the infrno and did four illustrations for each canto. most illustrations have some relevant text mined from the humament. the illustrations also act as a retrospective as he reuses many of his techniques and obsessions. irma - an opera. phillips collected sound words and other bits and pieces and put them together (ah yes - toge: one of the stars of a humamnet who can only appear on a page which has TOGEther on it) on a sheet an called it a score for an opera - irma being one of the characters in the book. a version was produced by gavin bryars for eno's obscure series. an excellent record. irma is around in second hand record shops (rumoured cd reissues of obscure also) while the other books should be about - thames and hudson distribute them i think. jeremy PS the starless print-over is another of his trademarks [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Nadav Noah Caine Subject: elephant talk --sheltering sky Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:27:43 -0800 (PST) >I suppose the song that has me wondering the most is The Sheltering Sky. >(Fripp or Belew? -JP Mohan) During the tour for Discipline which I caught in Philadelphia, I thought that Belew and Fripp actually switched guitar parts all-of-a-sudden (on Sheltering) --as if challenging people to notice. I chock this up these days to an hallucination, but since Mohan brings it up, could it have happened? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:15:25 -0400 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Rumours from an unlikely source Hi all... I know, I've been chattering lately. I promise less posts, OK? Here's a novelty - KC rumours from New Zealand! According to Virgin NZ, King Crimson are busy recording at Real World at this very moment, with a planned album release in March. Also, they seem to think that Vrooom will be released in Spain and Italy only! Any truth in either rumour??? James Musical recommendation for the day: Paris 1919 (John Cale) James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 07 Nov 94 15:05 GMT From: GRACO1 at AppleLink dot Apple dot COM (Graco, Doug Farrow,AM) Subject: Belew et al Just a brief question - I've heard the Psychodots referred to as the Bears minus Belew. Earlier, I heard the Bears referred to as the Raisins plus Belew. Does this mean the Psychodots are merely the Raisins renamed? Doug Farrow GRACO1 at APPLELINK dot APPLE dot COM [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #155 Date: Mon, 07 Nov 1994 10:11:13 EST From: John Saylor >I suppose the song that has me wondering the most is The Sheltering Sky. >What is puzzling about this song is that it has a lot of soloing laid over >eight minutes of a v. mellow and monotonous (yet beautiful) chord >progression. At times this soloing takes the form of Robert's trademark >"endless note" melody sound, yet what leads me to believe that Adrian also >participates is the existence of more abrasive and aggressive attacks, >particularly in the middle section. As someone who has had the benefit of seeing a live performance of the song, let me say that you're right [although I think you have the two guitarists confused]! Both take a "whack" at this one. Fripp opens and closes it with the main melody and his own "reconstructions" of it. Belew plays the sustained "sound clouds" that are rhythmically detached from the rest of the texture. And while I often find myself more alligned with Fripp in terms of artistic oreintation, I think that this solo is one of Belew's finest. jsaylor [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:03:03 -0600 From: Glen Astarita Subject: KC Whatever happened to these ex-Crimsonites: 1) Jamie Muir 2) John Wetton 3) David Cross ? Also Macdonald and Giles ? Just curious..Thanks again..Glenn [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 15:43:49 PST From: mfraser at rs dot com (Mark McCarron-Fraser) Subject: Anglagaard/Anekdoten Brave Crimson fans! I've seen a couple of notes here about Sweedish groups Anglagaard and Anekdoten. I just saw both groups perform at ProgFest '94 in Los Angeles. These groups are Crimson derivatives, trying to take early Crimson music in a direction that KC chose not to go. Anglagaard sound like "Court of the Crimson King" blended with "Starless and Bible Black", mixed with Genesis's "Trespass" and "Nursery Crime". They are a six piece band consisting of Drums, Guitar, Bass, Guitar/Vocal, keyboards, flute/mellotron. The keyboards are mostly mellotrons (two on stage and in-tune with each other!!) and organ. One of the guitarists styles himself after Fripp, the other sounds more like Hackett (maybe). While their first cd sounds very much like King Crimson, their second is branching out and is more sophisticated. (That is, less derivative, more original.) Anekdoten are unrepentant Crimson fans. They sound like a mix of "Wake of Poseidon" with "Red", heavy on the "Red". They appear to be uninfluenced by anything else. This is very aggressive music. A four piece, Anekdoten are Drums, Bass/Vocals, Guitar/Mellotron/Synth, Cello/Mellotron/Synth. These folks will be on tour with Disciplin soon. Check them out. They played two Crimson songs the night that I saw them. I wish they hadn't, but they did very credible renditions of the tunes. (I won't spoil it by saying which either.) On one song they were joined by a trumpet player, so if you can imagine a muscular "Islands" it had that sort of feel. Both groups have released excellent CDs. - Mark McCarron-Fraser mfraser at rs dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:35:06 -0800 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Humuments and FTP by email james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz asks: > I'm trying to find out something about Tom Phillips (the guy who did the > cover for Starless & B B). I know he put out a book called A Humument, from > which the "This night woulds time" quote is taken. Who exactly is he, and > is the book still available? Here's some info form an old alt.music.progressive post that offes a little info and implies it may still be in print or located: >From: dmandl at panix dot com (David Mandl) {DM} >Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive >Subject: Re: KC's Starless and Bible Black walters at mills dot edu (Timothy Walters) {TM} writes: TW> Re "this night wounds time,": TW> TW> Tom Phillips, the cover artist, has been using a Victorian potboiler TW> called _A Human Document_ as source material throughout his career. TW> In part this is intended to demonstrate the richness of even the TW> most seemingly impoverished text. DM> It was also published as "A Humument," which is a cut-up form of the DM> original title. This book is beautiful! Look for a copy of it if DM> you can. Here in NYC, they sell it in the store "Printed Matter." TW> I *strongly* recommend his edition of Dante's _Inferno_, which he TW> both translated and illustrated (the illustrations also include TW> treated text from _AHD_). It is, in a word, sumptuous. TW> TW> ObProg: Phillips was Eno's teacher in art school (and subjected TW> his classes to rather interesting teaching methods, as detailed TW> in _More Dark than Shark_). Oh yeah, the cover of _Another Green TW> World_ is a detail from one of his paintings. and on another subject: RE: music transcriptions in ftp archives vs. on the mailing list > I agree they take up space but hey, some of us can't get into FTP!!! Not true. If you can receive internet email then you can ftp by email. FTP via EMail mail ftpmail at decwrl dot dec dot com with no subject line, and two-line body with line one help and line 2 quit mail ftpmail at grasp dot insa-lyon dot fr (body: help) Please, European users only. mail bitftp at pucc dot princeton dot edu (body: help or ftplist for a list of anonymous ftp sites) mail BITFTP@DEARN or to BITFTP at vm dot gmd dot de (body: help or ftplist for a list of anonymous ftp sites) (Europe only) - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gtaylor at shell1 dot fullfeed dot com Subject: Some notes on Tom Phillips Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:12:14 -0600 (CST) A recent poster had some questions on something I'm actually a bit more able to talk about, for a change: the British painter Tom Phillips. Tom Phillips is perhaps best known to the standard issue retroprogoid for his visual work - the cover painting for Eno's "Another Green World" and the art work which adorns KC's "Starless and Bible Black" [a quote from Dylan Thomas, incidentally - we'll get to more about poets later], but he's a trifle busier than that, and you may actually have run into his work without knowing it. He's one of that generation of British painters [he's younger than R.B. Kitaj and the late Peter Schmidt] who may well have made his way into the view of music fans by virtue of the crossbreeding which exists between art and music in the UK [specifically, in the art school system]. The deal is basically this: at some point during the 70s a number of composers and painters who did some cross-fertilized work wound up teaching in a number of art schools [Phillips was at the Camberwell School of Art - from which Charles Hayward hails, for instance, and Gavin Bryars was at Leicester], where folks like Eno and any number of experimental/prog music types were influenced by them. Some of the interesting kinds of work coming out of that environment are cataloged in Michael Nyman's wonderful book "Experimental Music: Cage and Beyond." The sort of odd bit is - to listen to a number of the musicians talk about it - that "real" music schools wouldn't hire 'em, so they went elsewhere and wound up fomenting revolution of another sort. The bit that some folks know him for involves a long-time and ongoing project which involves buying up every single copy of this potboiler Victorian novel by Malloc called "A Human Document" and then painting or drawing over the page so that he makes a new text out of what was initially there. The resulting "book" is called "A Humument" [A HUMan docUMENT, get it?], and it's one of the coolest things I own. The level of his visual invention is nothing short of mind-numbing; he's located and extracted an entire new universe from this humble little bad novel. I think that when I try to explain to America's youth about what is possible with "found" work, this is always the thing I pull out and wave about. Phillips also has published a wonderful edition of Dante's "Inferno" [*his* own translation of it, I might add. This guy's *serious*] and worked with Peter Greenaway in a version whereby the first 7 or so Cantos were done for Channel 4/VPRO - 15 minutes or so for each Canto, with Sir John Gielgud doing Vergil. It's never made it to video, and what a pity. It's a luminous, extra- ordinary work...some of the most amazing television I ever saw. The easiest introduction to Phillips' work currently in print comes from his publisher Thames and Hudson: there's a recent new edition of A Humument out in paperback, and a lavishly illustrated and notated [by Phillips himself] book from them on his works on paper that I gave myself as a birthday present. The National Portrait Gallery in the UK mounted a major show of his portraits which has a nice catalog. What else? He's illustrated a couple of British editions of Iris Murdoch's novel book covers, and he currently writes a monthly column on Music and the Visual Arts for the BBC's Classical Music magazine. I interviewed him for my radio program in Camberwell in 1990, and found him to be a thoroughly wonderful man [though a mite perplexed at why anyone might want to question him so assiduously about his musical scores and them play them all on American radio]. About the easiest of his recorded work to find is the Recommended Records recording of his opera "IRMA", which takes its texts from A Humument. There's and earlier and quite different version of the opera on Eno's old Obscure Music label - which owes a bit more to Gavin Bryars' using the instructions in Phillips' score as a jumping-off point than the more strict adherence to the score. The Recommended version features AMM alumni Eddie Prevost, John Tilbury, Tom himself, and is generally a "who's who" of the experimental music community in the UK in the 70s [note: It's on Matchless - AMM MR16, and features Lol Coxhill, Phil Minton, Ian Mitchell, Eddit Prevost, Keith Rowe, John Tilbury, Birte Pederson and Elise Lorraine...recognize any of those names? Gallerie Hansgeorg Mayer also has a couple of old 7" LPs which are probably long out of print of TP reading from the Humument and a French group performing some of his "visual scores." A number of his postcard scores are included in the MIT Press volume of Cornelius Cardew's "Scratch Music," as well. Does this help? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Nadav Noah Caine Subject: submission to elephant talk Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 20:56:56 -0800 (PST) I'm sure this has been covered, but does anyone know to what extent Fripp has an interest in Virtual Reality and related supercomputing applications, or is VROOM just an interesting name? I assume it refers to VROOM, or the "Virtual [Reality] Room" project which uses CAVE (Cave Automatic Virtual Environment) to aspire to create virtual-reality spaces. For more info, there are some interesting applications discussed in http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Pubs/access/94.2/94.2Contents.html Thanks, Nadav Caine [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:39:44 -0500 From: ErikSensei at aol dot com Subject: Boots & Lists & Addresses Greetings all! I've been reading ET for several months now, and have decided it's high time I post something on here myself. I've got a couple of queries to toss out into the ring, and look forward to any assistance you have to offer. The first is regarding bootlegs. Specifically Sylvian & Fripp bootlegs from their 'mini-tour' of Japan pre-RFSQ. I was living in Japan from 1990 to 1993, but the fact that I resided in a very small rural town, I was a little out of touch with the goings-on in the "civilized" parts of the country...Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka and so forth. I was fortunate enough to see the FIRST performance of the Robert Fripp String Quintet in Gotanda, Tokyo, though. (By that time, I had discovered where to get news about good shows.) Anyway, I heard through a friend of mine, who I believe heard through Discipline, that apparently Big Bob & Dave did a 'tour' before that. I'm not 100% sure on the exact timing of this, though. I saw RFSQ in late '92, so I'm guessing that this must have been in '90 or '91? I'm wondering if anyone is aware of any bootlegs from these performances. I believe at least one exists...perhaps more? I intend to resume the search once I return to Japan myself next spring, but I'm curious what information you might have about this. (Just an aside...if anyone's interested in trading, I've got a lovely bootleg CD from Sylvian's 'In Praise of Shaman's' tour that I picked up in Sendai. The sound quality is quiet impressive...because it was apparently taped right off the mixing board at the Utrecht show on that tour.) The second question I have is about other mailing lists or Net resources that are directly or indirectly related to Fripp and/or Crim. What others exist? Has anyone perhaps compiled a list of such things? I've heard that some Eno and Sylvian ones exist...although I don't know the addresses, etc. And someone mentioned a stick mailing list in a recent ET. But I'm really anxious to learn about more. Either respond to me directly, or perhaps someone (Toby?) can condense everything into one list. The final question is about e-mail addresses of musicians. A few weeks ago, Laurie Anderson was a guest on AOL's 'CyberTalk,' and that got me to thinking...I wonder if any of these artists have e-mail? Or can somehow be contacted via the Net? Again, this might be something that someone could compile a list on. Anywhoo...thanks for your assistance & information in advance! Mata aimashoo... Erik Dahlin (ErikSensei at aol dot com) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gtaylor at shell1 dot fullfeed dot com Subject: More Fripp from out on the Rim Somewhere.... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 23:22:09 -0600 (CST) Sure, we're all happy as clams at Vroom, and 1999 ain't so bad, either. But what about a blow for the muffled and horribly low-fi bits of the universe? A Weird Person's Guide to King Crimson [Invasion Unlimited IU 9412-1] Trio A Strange One/Night Watch [1974] Groon [1972] Train to Hell [1973] Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Part III [1983] As Far as We Think It's Unknown [1983] I Wonder [1983] Three of a Perfect Pair [1983] Man With An Open Heart [1983] Thursday Morning [1968] Kick the Donkey [1967] Nightmares in Red [1967] No. 1 Mr. Wonderful [1971] Starless [1974] I think that one of the major outcomes of the move to digital technology may well have to do with the way that it's raised the bar for our expectations of what we may charitably call "collector's item" recordings; back when Rubber Dubber Records was supplying the drooling completist with "poppin' fresh vinylTM", it just seemed to matter less to me that the drummer seemed to be pounding on an aluminum pie tin and routing said signal through a cheap MRX PhazeBuddy effects stomp box while an intense gang of musos laid down dense sheets of screechy white noise and the lead singer bellowed into an oil drum full of feathers and vaseline with the mike secreted at the bottom; it would appear that the shortcomings of the medium of transfers somehow encoded this kind of semiotic of the illicit - like listening to the voices in a large hotel you've bugged having the time of their lives while you hunker down with the headphones on. The digital age has changed all that, somehow: The kids now stroll into the theatre wearing holographic jamming fields wired into the shoulder padding of their Edwardian waistcoats, and those leetle "Day of the Dead" ceramic earrings are actually binaural holophonic mikes. Alternately, they fire up the latest digital scrubtools and signal process the beejeepers out of that old 78 of Ellington and Hendrix until it sounds at least as good as one of those "GoldenEar Mystery Lab Platinum Voice O'Ishtar" 1/235th speed remasters. The modern artist responds to the access to tools with the preemptive strike of releasing their own revisionist histories of live performance before the folks at Rubber Dubber Global can run off those quadriple-oversampling knockoffs in somewhere like Belize. So I feel a little silly taking some pleasure in this amazing package of odd little things of interest to only the worst of the King Crimson megadroolers, mostly because the contents reminds me so much of those lousy boots I used to love so much. Of course, there is much here that the ah...more serious and less leaden-eared in our midst might enjoy, too. Basically, it's a collection of KC stuff in extremis: the first single Bob Fripp ever played on [which pretty much reduced me to helpless laughter. Kick the Donkey, indeed. The donkeys were the ones who picked up this self basting butterball Turkey single of something like soul as imagined by British youth, only to be further ah..entertained by the precious bit of psychedelia on the B-side], the alternate first Giles, Giles and Fripp single, a whole bunch of scratch rehearsal tapes from the proto "Three of a Perfect Pair" sessions [They really lean into the original version of "Three", the unrecorded things make you wonder about what kind of vocals Adrian would have laid over them, and it's really interesting to hear Bruford trying out stuff. Did I mention that they don't have that crystal-clear sound?], some French TV station bits from the "Starless and Bible Black days" which sound pretty terrible but have a positively sprightly reading of "Trio", and some *real* gems - at least to me. The *original* Doctor Diamond, lyrics and all [Titled "Train to Hell" here], a '72 studio version of Groon which has everybody playing off this funky little soul riff instead of the Groon we know and love off of "Earthbound", and this amazing No1 Mr. Wonderful, which has a '71 incarnation of KC running the voodoo down on this little disjunctive bit of work where you can really clearly hear the patterns that will come to be "Lark's Tongues in Aspic I" and "Lament" strung right in there. I've *never* heard this one before. Anywhere. Did I mention that the sound quality isn't exactly "Tony Bennett Unplugged" yet? This is ambrosia for slobbering collectors a complete curiousity and monument to the lengths to which the modern booter will go to please a public consumed with curiousity beyond the bounds of good sense, and a delight to those of us who, in our dotage, strain forward with the headphones clamped over our bald spots, straining to extract the majick buried beneath all those feather pillows. Caveat emptor, but hubba hubba. With regards, Gregory [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: In the Court of... From: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com (Greg Aranda) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 94 00:16:00 -0700 Organization: Toad Hall ~ High Octane BBS ~ 415-595-2427 Amazing! On tonight's "Late Show w/David Letterman" (US), the 'theme music' used when radio personality Larry King was introduced was...the chorus from "In the Court of the Crimson King"! My, my... I suppose Paul Schaefer is a bit more 'hip' than we might have imagined. ;^) -- ============================================================================== Assembled by: Greg Aranda in Mountain View, CA, USA at 23:29 PST on 11/09/94 Contact: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com ============================================================================== --- ~ RM 1.3 00624 ~ Exaggerations...It's all talk...Elephant talk! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:43:19 -0500 (EST) From: MKAEFER1 Subject: KC on Letterman Hey friends... Did anybody happen to see Dave Letterman on Wednesday, 11/9? Larry King was Dave's first guest, and Paul Schaeffer and the CBS orchestra welcomed him on with their version of "In the Court of the Crimson King". Get it...Larry KING...King Crimson. :) They only played the first several seconds of it, and it sounded just as one would expect...but it was cool anyway! ..Mark Kaefer.. MKAEFER1 at ITHACA dot EDU [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:02:51 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Wow! Okay, I know, I promised to cut down my messages...but... A friend - an avid Hendrix fan - swears blind that Jimi covered 21st century Schizoid Man in concert at least once. a) Is this true??? b) Wooooowww! 8-o What would it have sounded like! c) If he'd lived, imagine what he'd have done with Elephant Talk }8-o James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:51:24 -0600 From: sanderso at gac dot edu (Scott T. Anderson) Subject: Ahhhh... new King Crimson at last! I am sure that any other readers who are currently sharing my experience--listening to VROOOM over and over and over--know what I mean. What can I say? I had high hopes staked in this matter, and the guys didn't let me down. In fact, they SURPASSED my expectations. VROOOM instantly takes a place high on my list of the best King Crimson albums (it is technically an EP, even though it is almost as long as Discipline). This is some FANTASTIC STUFF! I could just babble incessantly about how much I love this album, but I'll save you the tedium and actually talk about what I think of it in detail: "VROOOM": Yes! This is classic King Crimson. Only these guys could take such a simple riff and make such an imposing, awesome statement (a la "Red"). A review in the '70s said, "Where Yes would marvel at the world, King Crimson prefers to grab it by the balls." Well, after that ambient 17-second introduction, this track does just that, and they don't let go until the CD stops spinning. "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream": This epitomizes all that I expected and more from '90s King Crimson. There's something funky about it. It sounds fresh, but I can tell it has a certain quality that will make it seem just as fresh in 2014, just the way "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" sounds fresh today. The element of humor comes out a bit in the music on this album, and I like it. There's some great polyrhythmic stuff going on in the drums. I was apprehensive about the "double trio" concept, but these guys make it work. "Cage": It's 1:35, and it packs the all punch of "Fracture" plus the entire '80s output of the band into that time frame. Intense! "Thrak": This is a composed instrumental work, and it's certain to take its place next to such pieces as "Larks' Tongues in Aspic," "Fracture," "Industry," and the like. There's some really challenging listening here. I'm sure I'll be finding new things going on in the thick texture for a long time to come. "When I Say Stop, Continue": This is to "Starless and Bible Black" what "Thrak" is to "Fracture." Heavy improv that is both mystifying and frightening. The fear is stripped suddenly, however, as Belew's firm call to conclude the piece is ignored by his colleagues, and everyone I know who has heard this has laughed out loud at that moment. "One Time": After assaulting the senses for 25 minutes, the band rewards the listener with this beautifully mellow closer. It almost has a Latin feel, Belew's singing suits the music well, and it leaves the listener wanting more. This EP is called a calling card rather than a love letter. If that's the case, I'm not sure I can handle the love letter. But I can't wait to get it! If anyone hasn't ordered this yet, I urge them to do so immediately. Perhaps Toby will be a sport and throw in the addresses.... [Yep: Americas: Europe: Discipline Global Mobile, PO Box 1533, SALISBURY, Wiltshire, SP5 5ER. (44)722 781042: fax. 73064,1470 at compusserve dot com POSSIBLE PRODUCTIONS 351 Magnolia Ave. Long Beach, CA 90802 USA Phone or Fax Orders to (310) 491-1945. E-mail Orders to Dinokiller at aol dot com ] Scott T. Anderson sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu The "T" stands for "Toast." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]