From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun Nov 20 11:59:07 1994 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 19:48:20 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #155 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 155, Friday, 4 November 1994 Today's Topics: Posting for ET Fairport links The First Day & Damage Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 Trade Acoustic Belew for Vroom Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 Fairport Convention Connection Re: Danielle Dax Thrak, Tamm Cadence and Cascade chords Shark's Dung in Aspen Part KC 1969 video Re: Elephant Talk #155 No-Man, "Flowermouth" concert review Guitar roles The Sheltering Sky ISO Cover artist for Starless & BB meanings? help! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Anekdoten in the US Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 18:32:56 +0100 From: Per Andersson Anekdoten in the US ------------------- We have talked about Anekdoten, the swedish progressive band that sometimes sounds a lot like '70-'74 Crimson. Now I have information that they are doing a small US/Canada tour, including a progressive rock festival in L.A. Tourdates I know of: 19941106 Los Angeles Detroit 19941118-19 Quebec 19941120 Baltimoore Se them if you can, and they always play some Crimson covers, Circus, or Easy Money, or even Starless when they feel like it. A new record will be recorded early next year. /Per [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 16:56:00 -1100 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Fairport links > I think transcriptions are best kept at the ftp sites, rather than posted to the digest, where they take up a lot of space. -- Toby. I agree they take up space but hey, some of us can't get into FTP!!! > I'd like to learn more about the connection mentioned by James Digan between the early editions of King Crimson and Fairport Convention. Thanks. Ow! careful with my surname, Jordan :-S. The original lineup of Fairport Convention, pre-Sandy Denny, had Judy Dyble on vocals... the same Judy Dyble who sang on the demo version of I Talk to the Wind included with "The Young Person's Guide" during her brief membership of Giles Giles and Fripp. I said... >Thank you Peter Evans ! More tablature please!!! (The only >Crimson I've played up till now has been "Peace" and "I talk to the Wind"... I lied. I've also played Cadence and Cascade, so... for our Icelandic Crimsonite... some chords. Note- I use an odd notation that saves space! I simply list the six strings and their fret numbers so that, say, D would be (X00232), or E would be (022100). I hope you can follow that OK. (022100) Cadence, and Cas... (042222) ...cade kept a (066444) man named (042222) Jade (022100) cool in the (042222) shade while his (066444) audience (042222) played (022100) purred (021100) whispered (002220) spend us (022100) too (022100) we (021100) only (002200) serve for (002220) you (022100) (021100) (020100) (002220) repeat for verse two until... (022100) they (021100) found him (002200) just a (022100) man (446654) Caravan hotel (335553) where the sequin spell fell (224432) custom of the (002120) game (repeat structure, then) (022100) (242222) (466444) The chords: (022100) = E; (042222) = F#m7/E; (066444) = G#m/E; (021100) = EM7; (002220) = A; (002200) = Asus; (020100) = E7; (446654) = C#m; (335553) = C; (224432) = Bm; (002120) = AM7; (242222) = F#m7; (466444) = G#m James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00:39:22 -0700 From: tntmusic at halcyon dot halcyon dot com (Kevin J. O'Conner dba Tinty Music) Subject: The First Day & Damage >a side note. the first day was produced by sylvian and bottril, damage by >fripp and b. any significance? Sylvian tends to be more comfortable working in the studio (he's not known for his love of touring - which is why it was so surprising that he toured two years in a row, after having only gone on the road once in the nine years since Japan's last tour ended), while Fripp prefers live performance. Consequently, it seems logical that Fripp produces the live album, while Sylvian produces the studio album. I don't know if they planned it that way, but it makes sense to me. Kevin J. O'Conner d.b.a. Tinty Music P.O. Box 85363 Seattle, WA 98145-1363 vox: (206) 632-9369 fax/modem: (206) 545-2868 e-mail: tntmusic at halcyon dot com tintmeister at pan dot com k dot oconner at genie dot geis dot com zzs32874 at pcvan dot or dot jp. "Sheesh! The times they're a-gettin' loopy!" - Milquetoast [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 03:54:20 -0400 From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 > Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #153 > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 13:58:33 -0400 > From: "Lee S. Kilpatrick" (Mr. Breeze) > > > If you're ever luck enough to track down the 2LP set "The > > Young Person's Guide to King Crimson," it contains a booklet > > with the band's history from Giles Giles and Fripp and the > > early Fairport Convention connection (a great band!) right > > through to the end of the first chain of Crimsons... > > What's the Fairport connection? Vocalist Judy Dyble preceded Sandy Denny in Fairport, and was also very briefly in GG&F during the interim between their album and the metamorphosis into King Crimson. She sings on a demo version of "I Talk to the Wind" that has appeared only on YPG; unfortunately, Fripp did not see fit to include this track in the Frame by Frame box. The box *does* include everything else that was on YPG, and also includes an expanded version of the booklet that includes all of the original material, plus more that brings it up to date as of when FbF was published. Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 04:00:48 -0400 From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 > From: watcher of the skies (John P Mohan) > I know that this is a novel by Paul Bowles, but I don't know > much about the book itself (I'm gonna try and read it next time > I get a chance, which might not be until winter break). What > is it about this book that musicians are attracted to? Not having read it, I can only say that Bowles was a composer before he wrote the novel, and was associated with the Beats, particularly Burroughs. As we know, KC (or at least Belew) had sufficient fascination with the Beats to base their second '80s album on them, so the appearance of The Sheltering Sky on Discipline should not be a surprise. For those who have not seen the film, I give it a guarded recommendation. The movie itself is not very good at all, but the cinematography is stunning, as is the Ryuichi Sakamoto score. Just ignore the characters and enjoy the scenery. :) Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Tim Szeliga Subject: Trade Acoustic Belew for Vroom Date: Sat, 29 Oct 94 8:40:47 CDT Fellow Crimsoids: I met another Crimso at the Belew concert last July in San Diego. He was quite a collector and was happy to trade. I exchanged my vinyl McD & G, Fripp and Toyah's Lady Or The Tiger, and a Xerox of KC's Rock Family Tree for videos of KC in Japan, Bruford's instructional tape, Belew's sound effect tape and the Fripp String Quartet as well as ELP doing Pictures at an Exhibition. We were went away quite happy. Robin Craig is not online, but I told him of the list and he'd love to hear from other collectors by mail at: Robin Craig 341 W Broadway #269 San Diego, California 92101 He's a VJ and DJ and had a printout of his collection in his car. Does Fripp attract this kind of tightly organized fan? Now, I'd like to offer a cassette of The Acoustic Adrian Belew for a cassette or cd of Vroom. Being married and mortgaged, I have to trade old things to get new items. If you recall, I was the one who was selling books and records to finance my trip to Woodstock (sorry, but I left before Gabriel and Levin came on, figuring, "Hell, I'll watch it on video, I'm getting out of the rain!" I've come to regret this decision) I'm having a hard time reconciling the wife in "The Muomuor" with that nice lady selling T-Shirts and CDs in the window at Flash. Now that I think about it, that tune owes a LOT to "My Wife" by John Entwhistle. Compare Belew's "Late last night" and its rising tone with The Who's "Gonna catch a car and an aeroplane". If he was called into Plagiarism Court, Justice George Harrison presiding, he'd have a hard time defending his claim. Tim Szeliga webmaster at nohrsc dot nws dot gov By the way, I went to grade school with a Colin Vroome. It's a good solid dutch name (or is it flemish?). Did anyone else notice the connection between Vroom and Groon, that B-side from the early days? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 10:13:37 -0600 (MDT) From: Nevermore Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #154 I have a video of Adrian Belew 7/6/94 in Boulder, Colorado. Doesn't have the psychodots opening though. There is a short thing at the end where belew is talking to people on the side of the stage, and he talks to the camera a little. it is about 1 hour 45 min long. I'd be willing to trade it out to people. laters Nevermore poedd at ucsub dot colorado dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 10:33:40 -0500 From: dmandl at panix dot com (David Mandl) Subject: Fairport Convention Connection >I'd like to learn more about the connection mentioned by James Digan >between the early editions of King Crimson and Fairport Convention. >Thanks. Jordan Smith Singer Judy Dyble was in an early incarnation of KC (they were actually still called Giles, Giles, and Fripp at that point). She left to join Fairport, but quit that band after their first record (to be replaced by Sandy Denny). After leaving Fairport, she formed the group Trader Horne with Jackie McAuley, formerly of the group Them (which also included Van Morrison as a member). Trader Horne recorded one LP, called "Morning Way," and then fell off the face of the earth (as did Judy, it seems). Incidentally, the first Fairport LP and the Trader Horne LP are both fantastic and well worth checking out. "Morning Way" was impossible to find for years (I paid big bucks for my copy), but is now available on CD on See for Miles Records. I believe that the only surviving recording of Judy with KC is the early recording of "I Talk to the Wind" on "The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson." --Dave. -- Dave Mandl dmandl at panix dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 10:33:43 -0500 From: dmandl at panix dot com (David Mandl) Subject: Re: Danielle Dax >>Gossip - Fripp also went out with the ex-girlfriend of our lead singer >>(Karl Blake). Her name was Danielle Dax; another artist in her own right. > >Gosh, Danielle Dax and then Toyah Wilcox! > >One might deduce from this Grace Jones? Joan Jett? :-) :-) > >Once again it is shown, opposites attract! Yeah, but Danielle used to make some pretty strange music with the Lemon Kittens (which consisted of just her and Karl Blake). Those recordings are drastically different from her more poppy and commercially oriented solo stuff. But what about Fripp's long-term involvemenmt with the Roches? --Dave. -- Dave Mandl dmandl at panix dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 10:24:59 CST From: oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com Subject: Thrak, Tamm Last issue I saw a couple of questions I thought I could answer, so what the heck... Thrak is a Crafty song--basically "fun with 5 against 7". I haven't heard the VROOM version so I wonder how they've done it in the new band. As for the Tamm book, Fripp has read it. He said that it was more a book about Tamm than a book about Fripp and he did not recommend it. That's all for now, david -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ::: David Oskardmay oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com ::: ::: Motorola Corporate Systems Research Lab, Schaumburg, IL ::: ::: Phone: 708-576-2388 Fax: 708-576-8378 ::: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: (Frank Carvalho ) Subject: Cadence and Cascade chords Date: Mon Oct 31 16:59:18 1994 Hi there! The debate about Fripps guitar sound still puzzles me. I am sure that he is able to turn his guitar up and down using volume pedals, and STILL achieve these remarkably sustained notes. If you turn down the volume, the feedback effect will disappear. I doubt that this is the only trick he uses. I am pretty sure that he is using a fuzz pedal to create the guitar sound (I mean the tonal qualities of the sound), but the explanation of how he obtains the length of the notes must rely on something else as well. Anyway the solution has to be pretty simple, since his sound is so DRY (Hear for instance the end of the sustained solo in the Letters song from Islands. That is a very dry guitar sound). Orn Orrason was looking for the chords to Cadence and Cascade. >From the top of my mind I suggest the following chords. Frank Carvalho e-mail: fdc at simcorp dot dk *** Attached File #1: CADENCE.TXT *** Cadence and cascade chords: "Cadence and cascade...." : ||: E | F#m7 | G#m7 | F#m7 :|| "Sad paper courtesan....": | E G#m7 | A E | E G#m7 | A9 A | A (break with piano) | "Cadence oiled him down...": ||:A maj7 | Am7 | Bm7 | A m7 :|| A (break with piano) | Instrumental with flute: ||: E | Cmaj7 | G maj7 | F# m7 B7 :|| *** EOF *** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:16:39 -0500 (EST) From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: Shark's Dung in Aspen Part A little note from the heady days, the overly protracted days, of waiting for the new Crimson to arrive. Anyone remember that Fripp said that during the almost reformation of Crimson in 1987 for the never-got-off-the-ground _Neruomancer_ film, there was a piece of music bandied about called Lark's Tounge in Aspic part Four. He said something like, "when the band reforms that piece may appear, although possibly under another name." My ear is not sophisticated enough (and I have never really tried) to define the musical continuity between those ascendingly named chunks which have delighted and confounded the ear over the years, which have sent crtics running for the door as quick as you can say "1, 2, 3". My question is for those who have heard Vrooom and for the rest of us to keep in mind as we get our eagar hands on it soon: does anything on there resemble something which might have rather been titled "Shark's Lungs in Lemsip Part Four"? Has it been held back for the love letter? Or as is most likely, has it gone by the wayside? Jeff PS - For the discriminating reader who demands references, I think I saw Fripp mention LTiA IV in the Goldmine issue at the end of 1991, also the first time I saw mention of the reformation, at the time personnel unknown apart from Fripp, Belew-if-he-wants-to, and Levin. And, yes, that means we've been waiting three years. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: KC 1969 video Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 14:34:49 -0700 From: (Mitchell Kotler) Is it possible to find any video of footage of KC circa 1968,69, or 70? I would like to see the band's first incarnation, i.e., Greg Lake, etc. How about the Hyde Park concert from July of '69 in which they opened for the Stones? Mitchell Kotler [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ottari at ismennt dot is (Ottar Isberg) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #155 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 22:26:14 +0000 (GMT) KC on Television I have mentioned before that KC is sounding on the Icelandic station #1 these days but I must mention again. 2-3 minutes of Epitaph are being broadcasted twice each evening, the non vocal part. So much of it that I almost have had enough. I which they would put the name of the band on the screen as well so that people would know the author of the magic. This has been going for more than a week. VIDEOS: I am a poor PAL user. There just does not seem to be any PAL material around. There seems however to be a lot of NTSC stuff which is qiute expensive to convert. I do possess 4- 5 songs of Discipline , welcome to anyone who can trade with be. regards Orn Orrason [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 1 Nov 94 14:18:47 GMT From: Toby Howard Subject: No-Man, "Flowermouth" I recently picked up (thanks to a tip from Michael Hughes) an album by No-Man, called "Flowermouth". Robert Fripp plays on 6 of the 9 tracks, contributing solos and Frippertronics. No-man are Tim Bowness and Stephen Wilson, and other artists on the album include Mel Collins, Richard Barbieri, Ian Carr, Steve Jansen, Ben Coleman, Lisa Gerard, Chris Maitland and Silas Maitland. One Little Indian Records Ltd, TPLP67CD. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: lpaulino at fox dot cce dot usp dot br (Luis Eduardo Bondesan Paulino) Subject: Crimso gig in Buenos Aires... Date: 30 Oct 1994 04:44:46 GMT Hello! It's been some time now that I returned from Buenos Aires, but I just thought that I should be better writing something about the gig I was lucky enough to catch... I had heard before that Mr. Fripp was actually spending some time there in Argentina, but I had no idea they would be playing there... So, shocked I was when I opened the papers and saw a big ad for their concert... Immediately I rushed to the theater, and bought a ticket, for a mere US$40 (that's it, US$40... well, I knew I'd never excuse myself if I didn't watched that concert! hehe)... As I was just 1 day away from the concert, I couldn't get a decent place in theater, so I was way too far from the stage... The show started almost in time, and after the usual Fripp restrictions, it began with VROOM (the song)... I was _AMAZED_... It was like if "Red" era Crimso was back! Heavy guitar, weird drumming! Great! ... but then, some 80's Crimson songs had to be played, and my happyness was gone, as I don't like their 80s material (so, I can't tell ya which songs they played, except for Heartbeat-- this one i know, and it seems everybody else in the place knew it too, because they were all singing along!)... The only 70s pieces played were "Larks Tongues" and "Red"... Good enough! Now to individual perfomances: First, Mr. Fripp himself... Great playing, good solos, even though Adrian did most of the soloing, and Fripp provided the background, some keyboard-like texture, that I found particularly amazing... Now, Adrian... I never liked his voice, but it seems he's singing a bit better now.. :) His playing was OK too, not a patch on Fripp's.. :) Bruford was majestic... You could notice he was really happy doing it! His solo was just wonderful, and as it was followed by Levin's stick, they both form an amazing pair... Trey Gunn was "hidden"... Not flashy at all... I'd say he was superfluous... As was Pat Mastelotto... He's not a bad drummer at all, but when you have Bruford in your ranks, you just don't need another drummer, no matter how good he is! :) It was ridiculous watching him just tweaking some bells and stuff, while Bruford did the real thing! :) All in all, a memorable performance, and I'd recommend it to all fans of Crimson. I don't like 80s Crimson so much, but I was able to enjoy the show a lot! That's it... Excuse me for my (very) bad command of english, but this was all done in a single session... :) Cheeeers! :) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 22:17:08 -0500 (CDT) From: watcher of the skies (John P Mohan) Subject: Guitar roles In the midst of what is proving to be a very exciting time for Crimheads everywhere (I am referring, of course, to the release of VROOM), I thought I'd toss a slightly less intense and immediate topic into the waters, for those of us who might not be able to keep up with the frenzied pace of VROOMania (do not get me wrong--like everyone else, I am spending my $23 to receive an autographed copy in the mail). I am the drummer in a band called VIVID whose configuration is like that of Discipline-era KC (guitar, guitar, bass, drums). Although I cannot play guitar, I never cease to be amazed by the intelligent and often entertaining interaction between both VIVID and KC's two guitarists. Their relation of VIVID's guitarists to each other musically is also similar to that of Robert and Adrian: neither assumes a permanent "lead" role, but they share the spot- light and trade off with lead parts. For this reason, I sometimes find it hard to distinguish between the sound of Robert and Adrian's guitars. I have made a few assumptions here, and I guess what I'm wondering is if these assumptions are correct. Again, I am not a guitarist, so my descriptive terminology will be almost infuriatingly vague and ignorant. Bear with me. I know that, when it comes to the incredibly fast 32-note runs found in songs like "Frame by Frame", Robert is the one responsible. In songs like that one, "Discipline", or "Neal and Jack and Me", Adrian adds his own notes to the already complex lines, creating a brilliant counter-rhythym effect. I assume that Adrian is responsible for any "Elephantosity" found, obviously, on "Elephant Talk", but also on other frenzied compositions like "Neurotica". I am referring to the abrasive death-wail sound that at times sounds like it has no musical grounding but actually does. :) I suppose the song that has me wondering the most is The Sheltering Sky. What is puzzling about this song is that it has a lot of soloing laid over eight minutes of a v. mellow and monotonous (yet beautiful) chord progression. At times this soloing takes the form of Robert's trademark "endless note" melody sound, yet what leads me to believe that Adrian also participates is the existence of more abrasive and aggressive attacks, particularly in the middle section. Any input? I don't really expect too many ETers to actually give this much serious thought, and I am frightened that I actually devoted this much text to the issue, much less that much thought. I must have too much idle time on my hands. Anyway, speak if you're interested, and in the meantime, when I say stop, continue. :) JP Mohan Grinnell College Grinnell Iowa [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ramiz at www-mail dot huji dot ac dot il Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 14:02 +0300 Subject: The Sheltering Sky Bernardo Bertolucci's film of the same name from 1990 is based on Bowels'(?) book [who also participates as the storyteller in the cafe']. Here it's playing every now and then on cinemateques and i guess it's the same out there. o o ^ Rami. p.s. i think that Bowels(?) is also the one who has written "The Collector", upon which an excellant film was based back in the late 60s (with Samantha Eager i recall). [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:27:54 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: ISO Cover artist for Starless & BB G'day all... I'm trying to find out something about Tom Phillips (the guy who did the cover for Starless & B B). I know he put out a book called A Humument, from which the "This night woulds time" quote is taken. Who exactly is he, and is the book still available? James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:06:22 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: meanings? help! Dear all. Just a quick question or two: What does Thela Hun Ginjeet mean? And Heptaparaparshinokh? [ The first is an anagram of 'Heat in the Jungle'. The second, if my memory serves, is a name for Gurdjieff's 'Way of Seven'. Or something :-) -- Toby ] I've heard rumours that the first may be an anagram, and the second sounds vaguely like it could be a magnitude 5 star in the constellation "Bobo the three legged Kangaroo". Any ideas? Musical recommendation for the day: Don't Try This At Home (Billy Bragg) James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]