From elephant-talk at arastar dot comSun Oct 23 09:50:42 1994 Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 09:06:03 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #153 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 153, Friday, 21 October 1994 Today's Topics: Possible Productions WWW pages NPR Fripp Transcriptions Comparing remastered CDs Re: Television and KC Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 Re: Elephant Talk (in 152) Centipede Great Deceiver Autographs (Belew/Psychodots) Argentina 2/10/94 Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 Re: Various bits of #152 Elephant Talk Re: 100 years from now (#152) The Elephant Talk FAQ - volunteer? Damage review King Crimson TAB Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 Sustained Crimson KC history and possible video Influences of Fripp/KC A bit of info. THE STARVING MOON - Europa String Choir Vibing on VROOOM: A Biased Critique FrippSheetMusic [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Toby Howard Subject: Possible Productions WWW pages Hi everyone. I hope you're all well. The Possible Productions merchandise list and order form are now available on the Web, at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/possible.html or you can ftp a copy from ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk/possible.txt Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:25:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Larry Roger Nittler Subject: NPR Hi Y'all, Yesterday I was listening to National Public Radio's new program All Things Considered, and noticed something interesting. They play little snippets of music between news stories, of all different kinds. Yesterday, they played a short bit of the song "Islands" and a little while later, a little bit of "Sheltering Sky". It was pretty cool. Larry ___________________________________________________________________________ | Larry R. Nittler Human beings were invented by water as | | lrn at howdy dot wustl dot edu a means of transporting itself from | | Interstellar Dust Buster one place to another. -- Tom Robbins | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:50:55 -0700 From: Mark Taylor Subject: Fripp Transcriptions re: transcriptions of Fripp music There are some transcriptions of Crimson music in the nevada ftp archives. They are of varying quality and completeness. >I would certainly volunteer to help. I could transcribe 'Red' for you >readily (it's one of my very most favorite songs). >Pat Hickey ***SPH I'd love to see this group work on some transcriptions. I could contribute Starless (one of my very most favorites) and maybe some bits and pieces of others. I don't read music so I'm proposing standard guitar tablature. I don't have the patience (or discipline) to sit around figuring out every note of all the Crimson songs I'd like to know how to play. But I'd like to split the effort with some others. If this list isn't appropriate we could use rec.music.guitar.tablature or just email amongst those interested. Responses? ----- Mark Taylor Email: MTAYLOR at Data dot Basix dot COM [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 12:14:20 PDT From: "Ken Stuart" Subject: Comparing remastered CDs Hello, As an audiophile and recording engineer, I thought I might pass on some advice on what to listen for when trying to compare remastered CDs with the previous editions. First, this task is already difficult with good music. :-) One tends to often find all versions just fine while listening, and get lost in the music, so you have to temporarily suppress this tendency *IF* you really want to find out the difference between the CDs. Most people seem to focus on "hiss" when trying to evaluate sound quality. Often there is indeed more hiss when tapes other than the original master tape are used for the CD transfer, BUT a CD can have less hiss simply by an unscrupulous engineer rolling off the very high end, which then also reduces the "shimmery" sound of cymbals and other percussion and also generally reduces the "airiness" of the recording. The major difference between a great transfer and a mediocre transfer (or between using the original master tapes and using copies) is the actual sound of the instruments themselves. How close do they sound to the way they would sound in person? This is most easily determined with drums, piano, and vocals because they generally have a "set" sound, while the sound of electronic instruments varies widely. Listen to a tom-tom. Does it have a musical tone or does it sound like a cardboard box? Do the cymbals have any element of bell-like tone or do they sound like metal trash can lids? :-) Does the piano sound like it has a blanket over it? A great example, because it is extreme, is the difference between the original Atlantic CD of ELP's Tarkus and the recent Victory CD made from the master tapes, and then the Mobile Fidelity CD made from the master tapes using the $40k Gain System ADC. On the Atlantic CD, the piano sounds like it has about 3 blankets on it, on the Victory CD (quite good, especially for the bargain CD price) it sounds like only 1 blanket, and on the MoFi CD it seems like only a thin muslin sheet covers the piano. :-) One other thing to notice is the degree to which you can enjoy the music. This sounds like an odd quality to note while trying to make an objective comparison, but there are many aspects of sound quality *especially* in the digital process, that are only just beginning to be identified. I'll give you a personal example of this. I recently bought the new MCA version of Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced. My Warner CD was the remastered one, done with a fair amount of care. However, while listening to the new MCA version, I did hear some increased clarity in the sound of the instruments. But, I noticed that I seemed to enjoy listening to the Warner CD more, which perplexed me initially. Finally, after some more comparisons, I realized that whatever process (digital noise reduction?) was used by MCA to further clarify the sound had also reduced the dynamics and impact of the sounds ("transient attack"). The new CD has less "rhythmic drive" (as audiophiles call it). It is less "toe tapping". For music like Hendrix's, this is an important, perhaps crucial quality. So, give some attention to your overall feelings about the CDs while doing any comparisons. PS Please note that there are significant differences between what is released when, in various countries, particularly between UK and US. So, "remasters" in one country sometimes just bring their CDs up to the level already existing in another country; and sometimes remasters released in one country are not released elsewhere due to political/financial/legal reasons. And, the "original" UK CD may be far different from the "original" US CD. So, in this international list, be careful and specific. respect to all, Ken ken at snowcrest dot net (primary address) (if no answer, try ken dot stuart at tigerteam dot org ) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:09:49 +30000 From: John Lorch Subject: Re: Television and KC On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 malzahn at umcc dot umich dot edu (Eric Malzahn) wrote: (deleted commentary on the similarities between Television and King Crimson) > Now, are these just coincidental similarities? Or was it just the mood of > the late seventy's New York scene? I'm willing to go one step further and > suggest that Robert Fripp heard Television back then and really liked what > he heard. Well, it's a sure thing that Fripp heard Television pretty early on. They opened for Peter Gabriel on his first tour, which was 1977 or 78, can't recall just which year. Fripp was one of the two guitarists on that tour, although he sat off-stage on a stool and was introduced as the "ever elusive, musty, rusty, Dusty Rhodes". (Steven Hunter was the flashy guy on stage, and, even though I knew Fripp was supposed to be there, it took me a while to figure out that the flashy guy wasn't the one playing those amazing licks. I didn't really know much about Fripp at the time, just that he was regarded as a demigod and was supposed to be really good. I pitied poor Television, who would have to be on the stage before this amazing guitarist. That was before I was able to appreciate as many different types of music as I do now. Actually, as I recall, most of the audience had a similar difficulty in appreciating Television.) Anyway, another connection is that Brian Eno produced a few tracks for Television, which were never commercially released. I haven't heard them, but I have heard that they were not as interesting as one might hope. Perhaps that's why nothing further ever materialized from that experiment. John Lorch lorch at umbc dot edu International Student Advisor phone 410-455-2624 International Education Services, University of Maryland Baltimore County [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:55:32 -0400 From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 10:10:21 -0600 > From: David Ewing > Subject: mid-70s Crimso was LOUD! > > > King Crimson actually had a reputation for playing at lower > > volumes than the average rock band (although I understand > > Wetton did push his amp towards 11 as time went on), relying > > on musical energy to get the crowd's blood pumping. > > Say what? The Wetton-era Crimson had a reputation for being > one of the LOUDEST bands in the known universe. Sure, they had > quiet moments (eg, "Trio"), but their loud songs ("...Schizoid > Man, "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part II", etc.) were ferocious > live. In the spring of 1974... ..they were towards the end of their tenure, when Wetton was cranking so high, everyone else had to in order to be heard. I implied as much above, if you read carefully. The reputation to which I refer predates Wetton's "fader creep" to the threshold of pain. Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 14 Oct 1994 20:26:00 +0100 From: MPE at hop dot dinoco dot de (Michael Peters) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk (in 152) > Last night the regular TV program "Parlament News" or Thingfrettir in > Icelandic started for the season. I was quite surprised when I heard the > opening, it was actually Elephant Talk. A rather unusual program tune. > However Crimson tunes are often used on this TV station, it appears that > their Music director is a fan. Wow! Why don't you try to turn the Music director on to this newsletter? Maybe he could also feature KC in Iceland and help make a tour stop possible. -M - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Michael Peters CIS 100041,247 | | Postfach 600645, 50686 Koeln, Germany mpe at hop dot dinoco dot de | | "Do nothing for as long as possible" (Brian Eno) | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:28:28 +0800 From: DDUDGEON at hkucc dot hku dot hk Subject: Centipede Eric Roos asked about Centipede. The only release under that name I know about is 'Septober Energy' which was produced by Robert Fripp and indeed includes the musicians Eric listed in his post. However, RF does not play on that recording. As I recall, there is a line in the sleevenotes to the effect that he was too busy in the production booth to participate in the music making. An interesting record. David Dudgeon [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 01:35:19 +0500 From: Subject: Great Deceiver Disc One does include "Bolero" from "Lizard." However, Gordon Haskell's bass parts have been mysteriously re-done by Tony Levin. Also, his vocals on "Cadence and Cascade" have been re-done by Adrian Belew. Fripp justifies this in the "Great Deceiver" scrapbook by describing the Crimson repetoire as "ongoing and available: not a sacrosanct body of work...and at different times in different places to the music's origin, other choices may be legitimately made." That's as may be, but I personally wonder why only Gordon Haskell's parts have been tampered with. The essence of King Crimson may remain, but I think that in a historical overview, such as the boxed set, the music is best left untampered. I have been asked to explain the pun of the title "Neal andJack and Me." After much deliberation, I have decided to just come right out and say that the title could be pronounced "Kneelin', Jackin' me." I know how juvenile that is, but I urge you to consider the following evidence that the pun is intentional: 1. Adrian Belew said on November 11, 1981 in Los Angeles "We were in Paris, and we were lonely, and we wrote this song." 2. The song was announced as "Neil and Jack and Me - Absent Lovers" The pun makes sense when the "Absent Lovers" is taken into account. 3. Sexuality, in all its forms, was a prevalent theme in Beat literature. Allen Ginsberg, for example, claimed to be masturbating when he first had visions of William Blake. Peace terry [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 15 Oct 94 06:27:21 PDT From: "EICS/VIMS, DTN 592-4810" Subject: Autographs (Belew/Psychodots) Greetings KC Heads ! I was lucky enough the catch Adrian Belew and The Psychodots in Boulder, Colorado this past July. It was another classic performance by all ! The limited edition CD 'The Acoustic Adrian Belew' is great ! He autographed it for me, and I also had The 'Dots sign their 6-song EP for me ! Just a great summer for music here: June ......... Pink Floyd July ......... Yes / Belew September .... Steely Dan / Boingo Can't wait for VROOOM ! - acp +---------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Andrew C. Parraco (719)592-4810 | Internet: a_parraco at csc32 dot enet dot dec dot com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | Easynet : CSC32::A_PARRACO | | 305 Rockrimmon Blvd. South | | | Colorado Springs, CO 80919-2398 | "Dancing Madly Backwards" (-acp) | +---------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 22:54:09 -0400 From: Keelo at aol dot com Subject: Argentina 2/10/94 By popular request, here's a mini review of the Crimso show I saw at the Prix D'Ami in BA, October 2. Set list was as posted previously. Show was quite intense, with a LTIA/RED edge, but the music was more Discipline era. I was a little disappointed that the new sound was not a departure, the way Discipline was from the LTIA era, or LTIA was from the In the Court sound. Anyway, the new songs, at first listen, were where the band left in '84 with a harder edge. Maybe the dual percussive sections added the bite. I don't get the double trio stuff. I saw a six piece band, not two trios playing off each other (which would have been very cool). Fripp sat off to the left side with Mas drumming behind him left. Gunn was near left center stage rear, Belew center stage front, Bruford right center rear, and Levin right forward. You could have split the stage visually between the "trios" (F/M/G & B/B/L), but to me Fripp stared at and played off and with Belew and the good ol' boys. Mas and Gunn filled in. Belew was the showman, Fripp a statue, and I'll bet Bruford had more eyes on him than any other member. Fripp banned smoking during the set (announced as the band walked out) and the Argentines were surprisingly obedient and good natured about it (they are a smoking country). Overall a great show. My favorite tune was a drum solo/guitar crescendo/coda I hadn't heard previously. Blew the mind. Others say it was Talking Drum, but I didn't (and still don't) recognize as such. Looking forward to seeing some of you at the show in Chicago. I'm betting on the Park West. -- Keelo [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 00:07:11 -0500 From: kikor at interaccess dot com (Gabble Ratchet) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 >Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:50:30 -0500 (CDT) >From: "Theodore Gregory Hill Jr." >Subject: Crimson with Muir >Also, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a video from this period existed. >On October 17, 1972, this Crimson appeared at something call the Beat club, >Bremen tv. Someone must have a copy of this. Help! > >Ted I have a copy of it on VHS...Muir is included & the band does the first 2/3rds of L.T.I.A. pt. 1...Either David had no monitors,or he diddn't feel like tuning up,(probably the former) because the violin parts with the band are out of tune, but as they quiet down it sounds better...I also have a copy of the 4-piece unit doing Easy Money, which according to Mark Perry was from Central Park, NY (was that right Mark?)..I also have most of the "Friday's" performances on VHS. I'm willing to TRADE copies for things that I don't have...send me e-mail if interested. -frank --------------------------------------------------------------------- F.J.Mundo Over and over,the crow cries 'uncover the cornfields'... V.Parks.& B.Wilson kikor at interaccess dot com -preferred or kikor at aol dot com --------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:39:54 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Re: Various bits of #152 >From: CHURCHILL at CSUSYS dot CTSTATEU dot EDU > >... has anyone written a history of KC? In print? Available? If you're ever luck enough to track down the 2LP set "The yopung person's guide to King Crimson" it contains a booklet with the band's history from Giles Giles and Fripp and the early Fairport Convention connection (a great band!) right through to the end of the first chain of Crimsons in the mid-70s. I think the history since the re-formation (Discipline, Beat etc) is still to be written... >Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #151 >Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 12:57:27 EDT >From: John Saylor > >>From: MrWarwick at aol dot com >>Subject: Re: Crimson transcriptions > >>In this age of mass information overload, there is one phylum of musical >>interest that I believe is sorely needed to be distributed in these days of >>modern times. That is, most precisely, printed transcripts of music by >>Robert Fripp. > >While I agree that the music of Fripp [alone & with the various Crimson >incarnations] is valuable, and worth close attention, I am not sure >transcriptions are the best way to promote this. > Is there any thruth in the (probable urban myth) story that Belew asked Fripp how he played the "Flight of the Bumblebee"-like part of I Advance Masked, and Fripp went away and neatly hand transcribed it for him? > >>Who knows? Perhaps some XXIV c. grad student could do his thesis on >>moto perpetua in Fracture! > >Argh! As a former graduate music student I can say that once his music is >deemed "worthy" of a dissertation it will mean that it has been analyzed to >death and that there is a certain interpretation of the music that has been >universally acknowledged- a sure sign of lifelessness. Fie! I know someone who's done his Masters Thesis on a comparison of the indie music scenes and sounds of Dunedin, NZ and Athens, Georgia! >From: David Maclennan > >An open request to Robert Fripp and the rest of KC: > >If you embark on a "world" tour, please remember that there are countries >south of the Equator! AGREED!!! James James Dignan, Department of Psychology, University of Otago. Ya jivu v' 50 Norfolk St., St. Clair, Dunedin, New Zealand pixelphone james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz steam megaphone NZ 03-455-7807 * You talk to me as if from a distance * and I reply with impressions chosen from another time, time, time, * from another time (Brian Eno) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 02:09:27 -0400 From: WELANTZ at aol dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Has anyone helped the guy looking for a tape of Centipede? I have a mint copy of the first LP I'd be more than willing to dub for him. Maybe you can pass it along to him or let me know and I'll address him promptly.... -- Bill Lantz [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 14 Oct 1994 20:41:00 +0100 From: MPE at hop dot dinoco dot de (Michael Peters) Subject: Re: 100 years from now (#152) > Of course, there is the issue of whether anyone will care about Fripp > hundreds of years from now. But that is another question entirely. If there will be any music listeners hundreds of years from now, I'm pretty sure that there will be a number of 'classical late 20th century music' fans who will love Fripp's music albeit probably less than today. > I would certainly volunteer to help. I could transcribe 'Red' for you > readily (it's one of my very most favorite songs). > Pat Hickey ***SPH > brzrkr at unipress dot com Yes please do !! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Michael Peters CIS 100041,247 | | Postfach 600645, 50686 Koeln, Germany mpe at hop dot dinoco dot de | | "Do nothing for as long as possible" (Brian Eno) | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 14:26:03 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: The Elephant Talk FAQ -- volunteer? A number of people have queried whether there is a Frequently Asked Questions list for Elephant Talk. There is an embryonic one, and here it is. Would someone like to volunteer to maintain the FAQ? I am a little busy managing the list, as you can imagine! And then if people would care to suggest other questions -- and hopefully the corresponding answers -- we can incorporate them. Thanks Toby Discipline Frequently Asked Questions 1. Chapman Stick mailing list Administrivia: dns at cs dot nott dot ac dot uk There is a set of Stick WWW pages at http://web.cs.nott.ac.uk/~dns/stick/ 2. David Sylvian mailing list. Seen on the net 9/4/94: > listserv at gu dot uwa dot edu dot au. Just send mail to it with > subscribe sylvian > as the message body and you should be put back on the list 3. Fripp's UK management address c/o Richard Chadwick Esq., Opium Arts Ltd 17 Gosfield Street London W1P 7HE UK Tel: 071-631-5221 Fax: 071-255-1559 4. Book of Saturday -- the King Crimson magazine 2 Greenhills, Leeds LS19 6NP United Kingdom Tel: 0532 506433 Email: not quite, but hopefully very soon 5. The Discipline/E.T. archives The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. 6. Music archives Last time I looked, at Nevada was: /anonymous at ftp dot nevada dot edu:/pub/guitar/k/King.Crimson: -rwxr-xr-x 1 jamesb 7183 Jan 8 1993 21stCenturyShizoidMan.tab -rwxr-xr-x 1 jamesb 3248 Dec 14 1992 Epitaph.tab -rwxr-xr-x 1 jamesb 2459 Apr 9 1992 FramebyFrame.tab -rwxr-xr-x 1 jamesb 7447 Oct 4 1992 Red.tab 7. The Tamm book `Robert Fripp' by Eric Tamm. Faber & Faber 1991. $12.95/#9.99. ISBN 0-571-16289-4. 8. Retail of Discipline Records Possible Productions c/o Mark Perry 351 Magnolia Avenue Long Beach, California 90802 USA fax: 310-491-1945 9. Another contact point: "For further news on David Sylvian and Robert Fripp, contact: Box CV744 14 Newbold Terrace Leamington Spa CV32 4ER U.K. 10. Guitar Craft Address Guitar Craft Seminars, 14431 Ventura Blvd., Suite 118, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 U.S.A. 11. Eno WWW pages: http://www.acns.nwu.edu/eno-l/ - Joe G. was kind enough to put it on 12. Yes WWW pages: http://www.meiko.com:8080/yes-archive/welcome.html. (Contact: Mike dot Stok at meiko dot concord dot ma dot us) 13. The 1994 King Crimson line-up is: Robert Fripp Trey Gunn Tony Levin Adrian Belew Bill Bruford Pat Mastelotto [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 14:32:55 BST From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk Subject: Damage review Since I've not seen one yet, here's some notes I made on my first (and so far only!) listen to Damage... Cheers, Brian Ritchie ------ Damage - 1st Impressions 8 Oct 94 Before it's in the player... Lush packaging, big thick cardboard box, black with silver/rainbow effect writing/graphic. Spoiled by the barcode sticker explaining the contents and slightly-larger-than-standard price. (But nothing like the rip-off of the Sylvian/Mills thing). This contains a 32-page glue-bound booklet just a bit too thick for a CD case, full of odd photos (details of an art installation and blurred live shots) and words to the new songs and (for some reason) Darshan. The line-up: David Sylvian - Guitar, Keyboards, Vocals Robert Fripp - Guitar, Frippertronics Trey Gunn - Chapman Stick and Vocals Michael Brook - Infinite Guitar Pat Mastelotto - Drums "Recorded Live December 1993", but no hint as to which venues (the thin CD liner has superimposed city names on the inside - a typographic dead ringer for Peter Hammill's "There Goes The Daylight" liner.) There's an ordinary CD box, containing a far from ordinary 24-carat gold CD. The box and booklet can only be removed from the outer box by moderately violent shaking! The CD is wonderfully long Damage (4:31) Surprisingly gentle, synth and vocals, joined by stick, then infinite guitar. God's Monkey (6:42) More laid-back than the album version - two or three guitars instead of the Fripp array. Obviously Michael Brooks swoops and swells in the background, Fripp squeals to the fore, presumably Sylvian chops in the middle. Nice harmonies Trey - in the studio, I'd assumed Sylvian was double-tracked, perhaps not. Maybe a bit lacking in bite relative to the original, though I do like Brooks' imaginative background. And there's a lovely Fripp solo at the end. Brightness Falls (6:29) Again, a shade less up-front than the original, though the distorted guitar is faithfully reproduced. Everything stops in the middle for a subdued passage of guitar, drums and infinite guitar, quite dreamy. This runs into... Every Colour You Are (5:40) .. which sounds pretty like the original on Rain Tree Crow, well until the middle, where it floats off elsewhere. Also, Sylvian's inflections are quite different. Firepower (7:02) Yet again, I find that this lacks the sheer energy of the original, but perhaps the extra finesse and breathing space makes up for it - the stick playing stands out more, I think. The intentional distortion on the vocals is maintained. Hey, there's a string quartet making a noise here - tapes or midi-triggered samples, I suppose. After about 3 minutes, they break away from the original for a quite frippertronic passage over the same stick/drums riff. Gone To Earth (2:28) Yet another version, utterly utterly different from the album version (except for the vocal melody, and the middle bit with the funny old codger speaking about the soul going beyond being). A much straighter rendition, followed by some nice dreamy frippery and infinite guitar. Then... 20th Century Dreaming (8:03) BANG! we go into this, and for the first time, something like the power of the original. A wild fripp solo, and things start to disintegrate (in the nicest possible way). In sneaks a quote from another Sylvian song which I recognise but can't quite place (off Secrets of the Beehive I think). A return of the frenetics, before falling into a free-form frippertronics show, which is quite lovely, but ends rather abruptly. Wave (6:11) One of my favourite Sylvian tracks, so I'm a little disappointed (but not surprised) that the notes rather than the spirit of the opening are adhered to: not quite as lush as the original. But fine nonetheless, Brooks' guitar making a nice different background. This song has some stunning chord progressions, by the way. A fine alternative version (I'm just too attached to the sound of the original). Riverman (5:01) Again, radically different from the original: I was expecting the stick to mimic that deep thumping bass, but it's a much lighter tone. The drum pattern is different too. I miss the guitar that (in the original) comes in after most vocal lines. But in the middle, things hot up a little, and it begins to be more than an approximation of the original. Darshan (10:47) No attempt made to fully recreate the hiphop automata percussion of the original. Here, concentration is on fripp's screams (elephant talk). The original left me quite cold, I just couldn't concentrate on it - just an unstructured jam. This version's holding my attention a bit longer, because it's more varied, and more seems to be happening - better interplay, livelier playing. Only to be expected, I suppose! Blinding Light Of Heaven (4:15) Now this sounds live! Nice raw guitar twiddles, good reverb on the drums. The lyrics aren't in the book but I think this is new. Sounds a bit like Jean The Birdman. The music is almost straight guitar-rock. The First Day (4:44) What, piano! and atmospherics. Sounds like a companion-piece to the opener, something of a "time for bed now, folks" song. Nice frippery in the background. Sylvian's end-of-line warbles here are simply wonderful. (Here's hoping there's another album of ballads in the pipeline...) I presume this track was live, though it ends without applause (shades of Oil On Canvas here). In Conclusion A fine album. It's 72 minutes fairly chug by (some long albums can really drag, not so here). If there's anything that disappoints me, by the end of my first listen, it's the feeling that the players have never really let rip, apart from Fripp. The stick and drums seem to have played almost entirely supportive roles, with no showcasing in their own right. I don't mean that I miss a 10-minute drum solo! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: King Crimson TAB Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:50:33 EST From: Peter Evans Since everyone is clamoring for transcriptions of King Crimson, I'm sending along those transcriptions which I happened across on the net. (Assuming that you don't already have them stashed somewhere :) Enjoy Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Evans Email: pe at imta dot com dot au Project Systems Analyst Snail: In-Mar-Tech Australia Pty. Ltd. Phone: +61 3 696-4009 10 Boundary Street Fax: +61 3 696-7449 South Melbourne, Vic, 3205, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [snip here] "Red" by Robert Fripp as heard on the album RED TAB by Mark Hawling This is an arrangement of RED. It is arranged here for guitar and bass. On the album there is considerable doubling of various lines to thicken it up. This is the opening guitar melody. ---------------------------------15-17-19------- --------------------13-15-17--19---------------- ----------13-14--16----------------------------- -13-15-16--------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------15-17-19------- -----------------12-13-15-16--18---------------- -------12-14-15--------------------------------- -14-16------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------15-17-18------- --------------------13-15-17--19---------------- ----------13-14--16----------------------------- -13-15-16--------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ The bass for the opening is: -8--11-10---8---12---11-12-14-16-16---- -9--12-10---10--14---------------14---- -9--12-12---11--15--------------------- ---------------------------------0-0--- -7--7--10---9---7----7---11------------ -9--8--11---9---9----8---12------------ -10-8--11---7---10---8---12------------ --------------------------------------- -8--11-10---8---12---11-12-14-15-15---- -9--12-10---10--14--------------------- -9--12-12---11--15--------------------- ---------------------------------0--0-- Main Verse Riff: ---------------------------------- -3-1-3-1-3-1-3--1--3b(4)r3--1----- -3-1-3-1-3-1-3--1--3b(4)r3--1----- ------------------------------2--- ---------------------------------- --------------------------------0- This gets transposed to positions 1 step up and 1 1/2 steps up. Fripp also plays at the end of the riff sometimes a "sick" sounding note which is: (i) and (ii) s -0---------0------------------- -3/5-------5b(6)--------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- So the 1st verse is played if we call the main riff E , the transposed riffs of 1 and 1 1/2 steps F# and G respectvely and including the "sick" notes (i) and (ii) we get the sequence... E E F# E (i) G G E (i) then 1st chorus 2nd time through it is.... E E (i) F# (ii) E (i) then 2nd chorus The bass drones these notes as roots for this section playing octaves for accents. Chorus: This is played twice: guitar free rhythm -0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0---!-0-------------------------- -0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0---!-0-------------------------- -13-12-13-12-13-12-13-12--!-1-------------------------- -14-13-14-13-14-13-14-13--!-2-------------------------- --------------------------!---------------------------- --------------------------!-0-------------------------- bass s s s s --------------------------!-----------------7/(8)\(7)-- --------------------------!---6/(7)\(6)---------------- -7--6--7--6--7--6--7--6---!---------------------------- -0------------------------!-0-----------0-0------------ then for the 1st chorus play these chords (free rhythm) -0---!--0---!--10---!--10--------- -0---!--0---!--10---!--10--------- -4---!--4---!--12---!--12--------- -4---!--4---!--12---!--12--------- -----!------!-------!------------- -----!------!-------!------------- bass -----!------!-------!------------- -----!------!-------!------------- -2---!-5----!-5-----!--5-4-3--3--- -----!------!-------!------------- note that these are just the position for fingers. the rhythms are up to you. The last bar has that little descending riff to the C which is played for that bar. For the second chorus -0---!--0---!--0----!--0---------- -0---!--0---!--0----!--0---------- -4---!--4---!--9----!--9---------- -4---!--4---!--9----!--9---------- -----!------!-------!------------- -----!------!-------!------------- bass -----!------!-------!------------- -----!------!--4----!-4-2--2------ -2---!--0---!-------!------------- -----!------!-------!------------- The sort of Bridge section after this. ------------------!-----------------!------------------- ------------------!-----------------!------------------- ------------------!-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-!-6-4-6-4-6-4-6-4-6- --2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-!-----------------!------------------- ------------------!-----------------!------------------- ------------------!-----------------!------------------- bass ------------------!-----------------!------------------- ------------------!-----------------!-7----------------- -0----------------!-6---------------!------------------- ------------------!-----------------!------------------- Middle Break The chords for the middle break are: Hit each as many times as indicated... 20X 32X 3X 5X 24X 16X 1X 1X ----!------!-----!------!-----!------!------!-0---- -3--!--3---!--2--!--2---!--5--!--3---!--3---!-3---- -3--!--3---!--0--!--1---!--4--!--4---!--4---!-4---- ----!------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ ----!------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ ----!------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ 32X 3X 5X 24X 8X 2X 1X ------!-----!------!-----!------!------!-0---- --3---!--2--!--2---!--5--!--3---!--3---!-3---- --3---!--0--!--1---!--4--!--4---!--4---!-4---- ------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ ------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ ------!-----!------!-----!------!------!------ The middle break has the baseline.... ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ -------1-0----------1-0--------4-4-2------------ -3-0-1-----1--3-0-1-----1--3-4-------0-0-3-4---- ---------------------!-------------------------- ---------------0-2---!--------------------0-2--- -4-2---2-0---2-------!--------1-0--------------- -----0-----0---------!--3-0-1-----1-3-0-1------- ------------------------------------------------ -3-3-5-----------------------0-2---------------- -------4-4-2---------4-2---2-------------------- -------------0-0-3-4-----0---------------------- Then for the rest of the song these various sections are played oveer again. You can work that out from the recording. You will have to work out the rhythms for the bass and the chords because notating them here would be stupid to even attempt and not worth the time. I hope this is fairly arrangement is fairly understandable. If anybody has any questions about the piece or any corrections (there are bound to some) feel free to mail me at chuck at cs dot unsw dot oz dot au Mark Hawling [snip here] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: pvallado at sdcc5 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #152 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Trey Gunn's newspaper quote in Fingerboard Digest (the Stick mailing list) had me LOL :). Enjoy! Date: 18 Oct 94 17:07:49 -0400 From: Trey Gunn <74744 dot 443 at compuserve dot com> Subject: What is the Stick? "The Stick, a richly sounding 10-stringed instrument that looks as if a monster from outer space had put strings over his penis and tuned it at the utmost possible degree of erection. Most distgusting" October 4, 1994 King Crimson concert review -- Paolo Valladolid ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | | ----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at sdcc5 dot ucsd dot edu for more info \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:26:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kurt F. Colville" Subject: Sustained Crimson This may have been covered in previous issues of ET, but I am interested in finding out how Robert achieved his "infinitely sustained" guitar tone. That is, technically, how was Robert's gear rigged so that he could play indefinately sustained notes and chords and still play rapid (!) passages without any change in equipment? I use an Ebow, but even that lacks in many ways (i.e., no possibility of playing chords or fast passages). How in the world does Robert do this, and is it practical to duplicate on an amateur level? Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks, Kurt [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: David Maclennan Subject: KC history and possible video Date: 19 Oct 1994 16:30:24 +1300 In ET152, Rick Churchill asked about a history of KC in print. Eric Tamm's bio on Fripp is probably the closest, but I reckon the obvious place to go is the Fripp-authored booklets with the two CD box sets, especially "Frame by Frame". Some great pix too! As for KC on video, I for one would love to see a video companion to "The Great Deceiver" box set. In the Yes video history "Yesyears" there's a short snippet of this incarnation of KC in action, whereabouts unknown. What chance, I wonder, of someone releasing the whole of this concert on video? David Maclennan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Crimson at eworld dot com Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 21:13:00 PDT Subject: Influences of Fripp/KC Regarding the comment in last month's issue about RF's possible influence by a band called Television prior to his reformantion of Crimson in 1980... ..well, I don't about that connection (though I will seek out those titles by Television if they're still available), but I thought I'd contribute what little I recall from that period. I believe I did read that RF was quite captivated by the music of Philip Glass and Steve Reich (perhaps especially "Music for 18 Musicians"?), and that was partly responsible for his exploration into what manifested itself as the rhythmic and repetative interplay of KC Rev. '80. On a separate note, I purchased "Damage" today, and am quite pleased with it. RF's work is quite inventive, but it's the high level of musicianship across the board that makes it a rich listen.... (I can't wait to hear Bruford and this new drummer, Pat Mastellato (sp?), weave some patterns...) With the release of Damage, RSFQ, L of CG, and along with some concert videos from the mid 80's, RF seems to have moved away from his past disdain of releasing concert material. Does anyone know if the crude copy of a Japanese-produce video of a live Sylvian/Fripp concert will be released stateside? Thanks Greg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 20 Oct 1994 17:48:29 U From: "Shearston Simon" Subject: A bit of info. << acting in a personal capacity >> You might be interested to know that in a previous life I was in a British band called "Shock Headed Peters" from 1984-87(?). During that time we recorded several times. On one occasion we recorded an EP called "Life Extinguisher" (El Records) and David Cross ex-King Crimson played violin on 2 tracks: "Scorch" and "Son of Thumbs of a Murderer". I co-wrote Scorch and played bass. David did a brilliant job and it might be of interest to your collection of Fripp data. Gossip - Fripp also went out with the ex-girlfriend of our lead singer (Karl Blake). Here name was Danielle Dax; another artist in her own right. Now I lead a more stable life as an ex-Apple Mac/Newton fanatic. regards, Simon Shearston European IT Manager BoozoAllen Hamilton [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 20 Oct 94 14:40:21 EDT From: Udo Dzierzanowski <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com> Subject: THE STARVING MOON - Europa String Choir Dear Elephant Talk Readers, The Europa String Choir are: Cathy Stevens - Viola - UK Udo Dzierzanowski - Guitar - Germany Alessandro Bruno - Guitar - Italy We would like to take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you because we think that many of you may well be interrested in our music. We have just returned from a successful tour of Italy with our debut - CD 'The Starving Moon' in our pocket. This went very well and the comments from people who bought it ranged from: "Very refreshing and Live" and "Something really new" to "I've listened to it and I want another one to give away as a present" and "You must continue - this is really important stuff". >From our point of view it's, of course, very difficult to describe the music but it has been pointed out to us that we are somewhere between the Penguin Cafe Orchestra and the Kronos Quartett. Another hint might be that Live we play versions of 'The Moving Force' and 'Conneticut Yankee' from the League of Crafty Guitarists' album 'Show of Hands' on which Cathy plays as well, but which are not included on our CD. The Starving Moon has been made entierely at the Discipline Global Mobile with the intention to capture 'hot' live performances rather than extensively overdubbing and has been produced by David Singleton, who's name you may have come across on King Crimson Records before. The Tracklist: 1. The Monkey Never Lies (Nunez/Schwutke) 2:00 (Arr. by the E.S.C and D.Singleton) 2. Sermon On The Mount (Stevens/Dz/Bruno) 3:43 3. Waltz (Dz/Stevens) 2:01 4. Mama Tequila (Dz/Stevens/Bruno) 2:22 5. Carol (Stevens/Dz) 3:48 6. La Pasta (Dz/Stevens) 1:54 7. Camomilla (Stevens/Dz) 3:30 8. Prelude (Cello Suite No.1) (J.S.Bach) 3:16 (Arr. by the E.S.C.) 9. Dancing Bride (Dz/Stevens/Bruno) 2:26 10. Delicate Little Me (Dz/Stevens) 3:15 11. Little Sinfonie (Stevens/Dz) 2:41 12. Bulghur Wheat Bounce (Stevens/Dz) 2:02 13. Starving Moon (Bruno/Dz/Stevens) 3:11 The Starving Moon can be ordered from the DGM at 10.75 English Pounds incl. postage + packing. Credit Card Facilities will be set up by the middle of November. Please make Cheques drawn on an English Bank and International Money Orders payable to: Udo Dzierzanowski. Discipline Global Mobile PO Box 1533 - Salisbury - Wiltshire SP5 5ER E-Mail - 73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com (44) 722 781 042 Tel & Fax BTW: Toby (Howard) likes it, too. :-)) [ Yes I do! -- Toby ] Thank you for your time and Best Wishes to you all, Udo Dzierzanowski 73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 20 Oct 94 21:00:51 EDT From: Subject: Vibing on VROOOM: A Biased Critique Global Crimsonic Webbies: VROOM - A Biased Critique - By Christopher Hoard God hath no scorn that menaces like Thrak... I payed a visit to that classic Victorian monstrosity that harbors Possible Productions, and was rewarded by a certain Mr. Perry with my very own review copy of VROOOM... (not to mention the Lark's Tongue T-Shirt--very cool). Some initial impressions are related here. I heard six substantive tracks -- two apparently improvs -- from the (first?) rehearsal sessions of the double trio. Given a full CD price of admission -- or here what would be the going rate for an import EP (about $15) -- VROOOM is a BARGAIN. All my fears as to whether this would really be a visitation from the King were immediately blasted away in a torrent of shrieking strings and battlefield nuke percussives... Anyway, there's more breath and depth of genuine music encompassed in those 31 minutes than you're bound to experience buying a "full length" CD from just about any other reputable band as of late. What kills me about this little "calling card" as Mr. Fripp put it in his liner notes -- is how much of that original (circa '69 and '73) experimental *spirit* combined with biting lyrical observation -- this offering evokes. The six limbs of this beast lumber and pirrouhette -- both like six Mecha-Godzillas trashing Tokyo -- and then like prancing as gracefully as a virgin ballerina -- all the while retaining this singular wholeness. Translated; we have a BAND here, mates. And given the polyrhythmic industrial meltdown of "Thrak" -- it's clear they're taking no prisoners. "Thrak" is the fourth piece, and by far as difficult listening as anything KC have ever come up with -- still the orchestrations managed in this double-trio ensemble are arresting. I can see know why BB was so excited about this recording when I spoke to him -- in a short space this band has set out to do everything the 80s KC did -- and does it better. The overall feeling and energy here reminds me more of the "Great Deceiver" period than the 80s KC; in listening now several times to the three vocal tracks with Belew's singing -- I'm convinced his talents and vision as a vocalist/lyricist are propelled far beyond what he's demonstrated as a solo artist in this context. Which is to say -- Belew fans will be thrilled, and KC fans in general should find the next Crimson LP to be as interesting and ambitious vocally/lyrically -- as anything that has passed before. There's a lot of Beatles filtering through the (mostly distorted) vocal tracks too. Anyway, I wish I were one of you lucky blokes in the U.K. -- I'd catch the first train to Bath and campout around Real World studios and offer to serve up free Indian food and ale -- if they'd just let me hear some of the outtakes! "VROOOM" booms forth as another classic KC instrumental -- there seems to be a direct continuum extending from "20th C. Shizoid" to "Lark's Tongue" to "Red" to "Indiscipline" to ... I hope I don't imply any of this material is out of date. The music as as ground-breaking and complex as any from the "Discipline" years -- but so much of it harkens back to earlier incarnations that there's a lot of resonance at play here. Where Tony Levin and Trey Gunn separate in this melange is difficult to discern. Belew, Fripp, and Gunn have all demonstrated what masters of atmospherics and electronic effects they are in the mid-to-upper registers--and the ambience is always thick here. The new KC, especially on "Vrooom" has made the most of two drummers--and my suspicion is BB is playing the role again he studied under Jamie Muir--that of a percussionist. Yet in other tracks, especially "Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream," -- the backbeat and groove is solid, tight, and as steady and unstoppable as an aircraft carrier sailing a glassy sea. Major power looms in the reserve reactor propelling the percussives. The tension in "VROOOM" breaks with pretty--almost acoustic guitar arpeggios and the melodic voice of Levin's bass--there's a lead voice in this concoction to tantalize everyone's taste. The glue that holds much together is the ambience--either Frippertronics or the effects (I suspect from listening to Gunn's '1000 Years') Gunn achieves on his upper register stick. "Sex, Sleep" will both whallop us Crimsies and should prove an inspired choice by some daring FM radio programmers to alert us that another ensemble (apart from Plant/ Page) can occasionally open the eyes of Rock's comatose corpse, and get it grooving, if not breathing fire... Belew has managed his best invocation of Lake's "Schizoid" vocals here--yet in no way is it derivative; his voice is richer and more expressive to me, based on these three tracks--than anything I've heard before--and generally much more pronounced in the music than guitar sounds I can identify as unmistakably Belew--but no need to wait until the REAL record... "Cage" is a minute and a half of cheerful insanity... "Livin' in a Cage in the USA" says it all--it's a miracle how they fitted this much SONG into such a short gap in space-time. Anyway, Belew segues into a roccous rap, induced no doubt by the stressful situation of the average middle-class American now confined to small apartments... "What in the world is wrong with the world?" he asks us--and then he proceeds to size up the whole situation over the contrapuntal roller-coaster that blazes Balinese rock--pure inspiration reflecting on pure, compartmentalized anguish. By this point I've had my $15 worth... BUT THERE'S MORE! "Thrak" however--gets tiring--it's riveting and awesome--but doesn't go down well with my morning (super-high octane) coffee. Still for pure, unadulterated Crimsonian menace--this one about sums it all up. The second piece which sounds like another improv is "When I Say Stop, Continue." A fascinating journey--which ends on a note of hillarity. A psuedo-reggae ballad, "One Time" -- offers us the icing on the cake. It's another beautiful piece featuring Adrian's best singing ala "Matte Kudesai." This is definitely the calm after the storm. In summary I found these six tracks to be as inspired and original as any assortment of KC tunes--and I think in general the subscribers to Elephant Talk will find it a most necessary sampling--something to whet our appetites and compare to the REAL thing, right? The recording quality here is quite good--better than your average live-off-the-console -- but certainly not in the league with a studio album from Real World. Still I think Fripp and crew have done us a service, and in doing have allowed us to help support further efforts with the 90's KC and its affilliates and off-shoots. Anyway I have no doubt the efforts of this band will result in another glorious reign of the King... yes, the rivers will soon be running crimson again, if not already... --C.H. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 21:31:30 -0400 From: javasque at entropy dot bph dot jhu dot edu (Jaime Vasquez) Subject: FrippSheetMusic Hi, I would like to give my opinion on the issue whether Fripp/Crimson music should be made available as sheet music, etc. I believe that a lot of us will have a lot of fun learning the music from printed sources. To be a listener is not the same as being a player. A musician can really get inside a piece and see how all the musical ideas work, having a perspective of the music which normal everyday listeners (if they are interested in the piece at all) would never have. Many people would say: Well, learn it by ear. Not all of us are Mozarts that can write down from memory Allegri's "Miserere" after a couple of listens (a nine-part vocal work, 10+ minutes in lenght, which at the time was exclusive to the Vatican). Maybe Mr. Mozart was the first in the bootleg business. Anyway, it' also a time consuming task which more than likely will not be exact. David Altemir's transcription job on "Discipline" was great by the way. A friend of mine tried the piece on a double manual harpsichord, and it was fabulous. She ran out of "space" on the upper end, but nothing that going down an octave wouldn't fix. It is for experiences like this that Fripp's work should be made available to us, so we can enjoy from the inside that great and unique world his music is. Jaime Vasquez javasque at entropy dot bph dot jhu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]