From elephant-talk at arastar dot comFri Oct 14 15:01:37 1994 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 21:00:02 +0800 From: elephant-talk at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: elephant-talk at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Elephant-talk digest v94 #151 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 151, Friday, 7 October 1994 Today's Topics: Angels In The Architecture elephant talk list Sylvian newsgroup Release release Neal and Jack and Me Bad Religion covering KC? Neal & Jack & Me... Fripp/Sylvian live CD Re: Neal & Jack & me Anekdoten's Crimson Edge news Re: Damage Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #150 elephant talk 150 Larks' Spoken Text (fwd) should I pre-order the new stuff? Nice name change! Re: Crimson transcriptions Bruford King Crimson covers by Bi Kyo Ran [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 20:43:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Dan Parham Subject: Angels In The Architecture Six - eight years ago I heard a piece on public radio called Angels In The Architecture. Fripp was mentioned, but I don't know if it was a Fripp album, or piece, or if he (Fripp) was just mentioned as performing on it. If anyone knows about this album, I would appreciate any info that might help me get a copy. Thanks dparham [ This was an EG Records sampler album, including tracks by the Penguin Cafe Orchestra, Harold Budd, Roger Eno, Phil Manzanera, Fripp, others. The Fripp track was a frippertronics piece from Let the Power Fall (if I remember. I have it at home but haven't seen it for ages!). -- Toby] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 15:35:20 EDT From: pchady at bns101 dot bng dot ge dot com (Peter Chady ph3244) Subject: elephant talk list Hello list types. I have just recently joined, after looking for some kind of Belew / Crimson stuff on the Net for a while. My question for now is, why isn't elephant-talk listed in the "List of musical mailing lists" files/posts out there? I plan to look thru the archives to see if anyone has posted whether/when Belew is touring, but if you'd like to volunteer that info, I'd very much like that! Pete pchady at bng dot ge dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 14:21:25 -0400 From: javasque at entropy dot bph dot jhu dot edu (Jaime Vasquez) Subject: Sylvian newsgroup This message is to let you know about the existence of a newsgroup solely dedicated to David Sylvian's music. It's exact name is: alt.music.sylvian. Now a question... how do you get a hold of the Polytown CD (the Karn, Torn & Bozzio project)? Thanks in advance for any info. -jaime [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: AAronson at aol dot com Date: Sat, 01 Oct 94 17:43:24 EDT Subject: Release release So what exactly is the release date for VROOM? Is Possible Productions taking orders for the 'signature edition' yet? Also, I am desparately seeking the ABWH CD entitled "We Make Believe". If someone has one they want to sell or knows where I can get one, please email. I am paying a generous finders fee/reward too... >A< [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 02:45:33 EDT From: Subject: Neal and Jack and Me This tune makes reference to an American literary movement called the Beat movement. There is a great deal on the Beat album that relates to the movement. Beat literature was written primarily from 1947-1967, although many of the authors continue to write today. A partial listing of the main Beat authors: NEAL Cassady JACK Kerouac Allen Ginsberg William S. Burroughs "Neal and Jack and Me" is also a horrible pun. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 16:48:20 -0400 (EDT) From: James Bickers Subject: Bad Religion covering KC? In the latest Elephant Talk, someone mentioned that Bad Religion did a version of 21st CSM called "21st Century Digital Boy." I just got through listening to it again, and I see absolutely no similarity between the two. There is such a song; it is the last track on "Stranger than Fiction." Other than the first two words of the title, they seem to have nothing in common. The poster also stated that KC was given credit for the lyrics; this isn't correct either. I can't find any reference to KC in the liner notes. James [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: miner%VNET dot IBM dot COM at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Neal & Jack & Me... Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 12:42:54 -0500 (EDT) Recently, John P Mohan wrote: > I know that this topic has been addressed in Discipline before, but that > was a while back and I suppose I wasn't paying enough attention. What is > Neal and Jack and Me about? I seem to remember Neal and Jack being > references to authors, but I can't think of which ones. I'm confessing > ignorance on the part of a loyal crimhead. Can anyone enlighten me? That would be Neal Cassady & Jack Kerouac (sp?), I believe. peace, miner o---------------------------------------------------------------------o | Miner Gleason miner at vnet dot ibm dot com | | | | "...sometimes the light's all shining on me; | | other times I can barely see..." | o---------------------------------------------------------------------o [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 16:21:40 +0100 From: Peter dot Flach at kub dot nl (Peter A. Flach) Subject: Fripp/Sylvian live CD Today (Oct. 1) I saw a copy of the Fripp/Sylvian live CD in a record shop. It is a 24 carat gold CD in a jewel box, packaged together with a booklet in a carton box. The people at the record shop claimed that it was a special edition that would be issued only once (they ordered 25, but got only 20). There are 12 songs on it (sorry, no details). The price is 45 Dutch guilders (US$ 26) -- this may be expensive for Americans, but is less than 15% above the price of regular pop CD's in Holland. A question for anybody who heard it already: should a person who is a big KC fan but doesn't care too much for Sylvian, who owns "The First Day", who saw their concert -- should such a person (i.e. me) buy this live CD? Any advice greatly appreciated (please email to Peter dot Flach at kub dot nl). --Peter [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 13:10:10 -0500 (EST) From: SKRISHNA at OPAL dot TUFTS dot EDU Subject: Re: Neal & Jack & me To the person who asked about "Neal&Jack&me:" Neal and Jack are Neal Cassady (sp.?) and Jack Kerouac, who, (probably you know) are "Beats." (A name which I believe Kerouac invented or anyhow popularized, implying both "beat" in the slang sense we use it, and "beatific" as in the vision of God. KC adds a third meaning here in the use of "Beat as the title of the album where this song lives.) So "Neal and Jack and me" takes its direction at least in part from "On the Road" -- the lead character there (sorry, it's been a while and I forget names) is Cassady and Keruoac is the narrator (Ginsberg is "Carlo Marx," and I forget the others.) Hope that helps. . . . . Sanjay Krishnaswamy skrishna at opal dot tufts dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: StrngOut at aol dot com Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 15:22:17 EDT Subject: Anekdoten's Crimson Edge Has Robert Fripp ever commented on the band Anekdoten? They are far and away my favorite new band. Stylistically they seem to echo moments from Red-era Crimson. Truly powerful, masculine, sinister, augmented fourth progressions, coupled with real cello, mellotron, and occasional feminine sounds. In reading through Elephant Talk, issue #150, there was mention of Robert Fripp writing something to the listing. Has he heard this music? As a new subscriber to E Talk, forgive me if this is an old dialog. (If you read this, RF, check out this wonderful band.) --Matthew, from Discipline. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 02 Oct 1994 20:17:50 -0700 (PDT) From: MCNICHOT at CGS dot EDU Subject: news I too am new here.I am from Los Angeles and am in graduate school for psychology.I think Crimso is great.The best.Here are a few answers to some previos previous stuff.Neil and Jack and me is about Neil Cassidy,Jack Keruoac, and Ade.Apparently while this tune was wriitten,Belew and Fripp were intrigued by these two american "beat generation" authors.Neil was more of a Prankster than an author and was known for driving Ken Kesey"s bus around the U.S.Both of these characters were quite colorful and reading Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-aid acid test should give some insight. Next,Crimso has not moved to Japan and they have not been rehearsing in South America but in Woodstock N.Y., a town well known for it's quality musical fascilities. However they did just play there first show in years on Saturday night in South America where they are playing nine nights in a disco. A world tour type thing is supposed to kick off early in 1995.If anyone can get setlists or any info on these gigs please let us all in on it.This newsletter is a wonderful service.Keep it up.When in America,be sure to check out the KC music forum on AOL-Mcnichot at cgs dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:01:45 -0700 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Re: Damage > 'Damage', Sylvian/Fripp Virgin Damage 1 7243 8 39905 2 8 Interesting to note that the version of "Exposure" that was performed on the tour was left off this release. I wonder why? It struck me live as a rather strange version of the tune - I couldn't help but laugh when they broke into in the show I saw in Berkeley - it seemed to have a slow tempo and was sloshy, almost as though they were performing it underwater. I'm curious how present Michael Brook is in the live mix? During the show I saw he was quite low in the mix but doing some very interesting funky wah guitar that wasn't in the studio Sylvian/Fripp versions. The japanese bootleg cd had Brook quite prominent in the mix. How dpes he sound with Fripp at the mixer? - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: AFCPeterS at aol dot com Date: Mon, 03 Oct 94 18:43:43 EDT Subject: Re: Elephant-talk digest v94 #150 > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 19:32:10 +0100 > From: Julian Parry > Subject: Elephant Talk ?149 > > I don't think the average person can hear much above 15KHz. I > think that musicians should take more responsibility for the > welfare of their audiences' ears: they should be careful about > too-high volume levels. I don't follow. The theoretical limit of human hearing is 20kHz, but the average person's hearing cuts off below that, and tends to get lower with age. This, however, is a measure of frequency, not volume. If you're saying the highs are too loud relative to the other frequencies on the CDs, that still isn't going to damage your hearing unless you have the volume on your stereo cranked. (It might be indicative that Fripp and Tony Arnold have hearing loss in upper frequencies...not that I've noticed any problem with the CDs.) My suggestion to you is to play your CDs at a reasonable level, and turn down the treble until the sound suits you. Of course, if you're talking about live performance, I agree with you. Bands generally play way too loud, as if the excitement generated by extreme sound pressure levels is just compensation for what's lacking in the actual performance. King Crimson actually had a reputation for playing at lower volumes than the average rock band (although I understand Wetton did push his amp towards 11 as time went on), relying on musical energy to get the crowd's blood pumping. > we have a 4 cd live boxset for the period 1972-74, but why o > why o why isn't there the equivalent for the period 1981-84? > Live performances in that era, especially around 1981-82, were > infinitely more powerful than the studio versions. There are supposedly two more live boxes forthcoming, one from '69-'71, the other from '81-'84. I agree that the best '80s gigs were more powerful than the studio recordings. I only hope that tape was rolling off the soundboard at the Savoy in '81: a boxed set of those gigs alone would be worth getting. > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 17:19:27 -0500 (CDT) > From: fallen angel (John P Mohan) > Subject: neal and jack and me > > What is Neal and Jack and Me about? I seem to remember Neal > and Jack being references to authors, but I can't think of > which ones. Neal Cassidy and Jack Kerouac, two of the writers who defined the Beat Generation; hence the title of the album, and inspiration for a few of the songs as well. Peter Stoller [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 20:17:22 -0400 From: IMPRINT -- UW's Student Newspaper Subject: elephant talk 150 This is my first posting, though I've been subscribing for a few months. Like everyone else, a note of appreciation is in order for Toby. This newsgroup is a GODSEND. I've got a few comments pertaining to Elephant Talk 150 -- hope readers don't find them too boring or extraneous....... In response to John T. Furlong's "Non-KC Faves Survey Results," I was excited to see the inclusion of groups such as Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, and The Soft Machine. Those first two especially, since too many so-called "progressive" rock fans tend to put on the blinders when it comes to considering what passes for so-called "alternative" rock. The same is true vice-versa. SY and MBV are the genuine articles -- Crim-heads who're unfamiliar with either of these bands would do well to check out, in particular, Sonic Youth's "Daydream Nation," My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless," and (as above) Soft Machine's "Third." All are master- works, easily amongst my all-time favourites, and possess strong appeal for King Crimson fans. An omission from the list that I think fans might also be equally interested in is Fugazi. Although their reputation preceeds them -- they're born out of Washington D.C.'s hardcore punk scene (Ian MacKaye was formerly the leader of Minor Threat, a band many cite along with Black Flag as the creators of hardcore) and their songs are generally quite angry -- but you might nevertheless be quite shocked how talented the interplay between the musicians really is. The reason I mention this is that I was fortunate enough to catch King Crimson on their "Three Of A Perfect Pair" tour at Toronto's CNE Bandshell, (I also managed to see Fripp solo avec tape-machine and two Bears performances, all in the mid-'80's). That Crimson gig was the most mind-blowing show I'd ever seen and has remained to this day the show that I measure all others by. The only other performances I've seen that meet it are Pere Ubu (Concert Hall, Toronto '91, opening for the Pixies) and Fugazi (last year at the University of Guelph). During the whole mesmerising Fugazi performance, and my reason for mentioning all this, I couldn't for the life of me stop thinking about that earlier Crimson shows. Both bands play with such fierce abandon, but all the chaos is controlled with unbelievably tight technical precision. Fans should check them out. Still going.... Another band open-minded fans might like to consider is Einsturzende Neubauten. Their albums are quite experimental and noisy and generally challenging. They irritate some people -- who'll quickly dismiss them as "pots 'n pans" -- but their performances are altogether something else. They're currently engaged in a production of Goethe's "Faust" in Berlin which should keep them pretty busy for a while. If it's a success, they may takeit on the road, hopefully to include North America, so keep your eyes open. Also in ET 150, John P. Mohan asks about "Neal and Jack and Me." Someone else will probably give a more detailed response, but the song (as is the general theme of the entire "Beat" album) is about Jack Kerouac and the anniversary of his legendary book "On The Road." Being a fan of both G.I. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, Fripp was doubtlessly (though I've never seen this confirmed) also a big fan of Kerouac and the Beat generation. If anyone's further interested, a fantastic pictorial exploration of the Beat mentality can be found in any of Robert Frank's works from the '50's, particularly his book "The Americans." It's a masterpiece. The Swiss- born Frank is one of the greatest post-war photographers, he travelled extensively throughout the States, and was a close personal friend of Kerouac's. Kerouac wrote the introduction to "The Americans" and Fran ((an unbelievable recluse) wrote a piece and supplied some portraits (as did Elliot Erwitt) for the excellent booklet which came with the CD box-set ("The Jack Kerouac Collection") a few years back. As an aside, Frank just turned 70 this year and the Museum of Modern Art in New York City has just opened a huge retrospective of his work to honour him, so if you're in the area..... Again Toby, thanks immensely for the newsgroup. Dave Fisher [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 03 Oct 1994 23:10:03 -0500 (EST) From: SMITH at hws dot edu Subject: Larks' Spoken Text "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part 1" is for me the quintissential King Crimson piece. The '72-'74 personnel is really the best in my opinion -- a quartet that understood texture and that wasn't afraid to be overtly sophisticated -- and LTIA part 1 truly captures that spirit. But my question is this: What is the spoken text that can be heard in the back ground of the final crescendo? It sounds like the soundtrack from a film, but I just can't be sure. The effect of the monotone voice against the band's sinister melody is wonderfully haunting. The resulting sound is what's important, I know, but I'm just curious ... replies would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Steven D. Smith Hobart College [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 22:50:42 +0800 From: John Lorch Subject: (fwd) should I pre-order the new stuff? Is the collective wisdom of this (newly renamed) group that I should pre-order the new KC albumette "Vrooom" and the new Fripp album, especially if I want the signed edition? Would I be chancing it to wait until the general release to order it? John Lorch lorch at umbc dot edu International Student Advisor phone 410-455-2624 International Education Services, University of Maryland Baltimore County ----- End Included Message ----- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 21:08:40 +0800 From: John dot Lukes at EBay dot Sun dot COM (John Lukes) Subject: Nice name change! Toby and E-Talkers: I heartily commend the name change...sorry I have been less than lurking -- I have been absent. Just getting back into my email piles and sorting through to find "Elephant-talk" from Toby, instead of Discipline. Nice change, good shift of energy, so to speak. I agree with those that felt a twinge regarding the old name and it's various WEIRD associations. Enough said...now back to sorting through my stacks of emails. -JOHN [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: MrWarwick at aol dot com Date: Wed, 05 Oct 94 19:33:41 EDT Subject: Re: Crimson transcriptions In this age of mass information overload, there is one phylum of musical interest that I believe is sorely needed to be distributed in these days of modern times. That is, most precisely, printed transcripts of music by Robert Fripp. I am of the conviction that music only lives as long as people are playing it. The switch over to digital music media I believe is a proof in point. Soon, all the vinyl will be either too scratched for listenability, or the playback devices will disappear. The same will surely happen with digital media. However, as long as something is printed on acid free paper, it'll last for hundreds of years. (Unlike my vinyl copy of Starless, which is pretty close to being converted to a Frisbee). Furthermore, it will allow the music to Live and breathe in future ages. So, I believe it is critical for the following to occur, either: a> Some incredible guitarist sits down and transcribes King Crimsons music to paper by figuring it all out note for note and then writing it down or b> Putting some pressure on Mssr. Fripp to do it. Personally I believe it is in RF's court to do so. But if he insists on being stubborn (as he has so far), then I believe it is up to some adventurous soul to do it for him, whether he likes it or not. Now, let it be known that not ALL of the KC repetoire need be done, but I think it would be a great service to guitarists, nay, musicians anywhere and everywhere to be able to study the finer works by KC, specifically, Fracture, Discipline, LTIA 1, 2, & 3, XXI c. Schizoid man, Exiles, Frame by Frame, Kannon Power, and the other many fine examples of composition that have emanated from the sphere of influence of one Robert Fripp. If anyone close to Mr. Fripp should read this, very kindly tell him that once this latest tour is past, he should get his tail in gear and do future musicians a grand favour, and give them (and us all) sheet music, so his music can live on well into the centuries beyond. Who knows? Perhaps some XXIV c. grad student could do his thesis on moto perpetua in Fracture! Comments? please email yours truly. mrwarwick at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 06 Oct 94 10:25:19 EST From: astarling at octrf dot on dot ca Subject: Bruford On a related note, does anyone know what Bill Bruford is up to these days? Is he still working on 'Earthworks,' and are there other projects he's persuing? --- Andrew astarling at octrf dot on dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 06 Oct 94 15:00:34 PST From: "Allen Huotari" Subject: King Crimson covers by Bi Kyo Ran As promised (threatened?) in Elephant Talk 148, here's the track listing for the Bi Kyo Ran Vol. 4 Live CD which is entirely KC covers. The Great Deceiver Book Of Saturday Fracture The Night Watch Exiles Starless This was recorded in 1977 when the band was known as Madoromi and while they were playing KC tunes exclusively. Shortly after this, they changed their name to Bi Kyo Ran and abandoned the KC covers. Although the vocal sections obviously won't fool anyone into believing this is archival Crimson, it is possible that the instrumental sections could pass as such (esp. Fracture and Starless). I've excerpted instrumental portions for several friends and while eventually all caught on that it wasn't Crimson, the general group impulse reaction was "if this isn't Crimson, I want to know who it is and if it is, I want to know NOW where and when this was recorded." Other interesting comments were "it sounds how Crimson might have sounded like if Alan White was drumming" (I haven't figured out if this was an insult or not) and "it seems like they learned the tunes from listening to bootlegs" (well obviously it's difficult to fully reproduce a studio recording, but this comment was directed at the fact that these versions sound like imitations of live KC recordings as opposed to studio KC recordings) The sound quality is good but not great (i.e., better than average bootleg). In conclusion, this disc is quite an interesting listening experience. At worst, it's merely another 'tribute' band. At best, one could imagine this disc as representing a 'classical' interpretation of Crimson. That is, technically accurate (without being a rote reproduction), somewhat dispassionate, but good enough to raise involuntary goosebumps on the strength of the compositions themselves. For those who are interested, this recording is from the Belle Antique label. catalogue number 9466 and is distributed in the US by Wayside Music. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at elephant-talk-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at elephant-talk-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES FTP: The Elephant Talk archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/elephant-talk, and recent issues on ftp.cs.man.ac.uk in /pub/toby/elephant-talk. EMAIL: The Elephant Talk archives are also available via email. To get an index send: "index discipline" "index elephant-talk" to listserv at arastar dot com and to retrieve files (in this example, the discography, discipline #63 and elephant-talk #148) send: "get discipline discog" "get discipline discipline.63" "get elephant-talk et.148" to listserv at arastar dot com (send email to kbibb at arastar dot com if you encounter problems with the email archives). ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/elephant-talk.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Elephant Talk are those of the individual authors only. Elephant Talk is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]