From discipline at arastar dot com Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 12:23:22 +0800 From: discipline at arastar dot com Reply to: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: discipline at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Discipline 146 D I S C I P L I N E The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 146, Friday, 2 September 1994 Today's Topics: Cover art/Old question waking up Trey Gunn Interview Re: Discipline 145 RE: Psychos re: Crimson lyrics Re: stale chalk Fripp & Sylvian singles Re: Sarah Hickman Toyah pictures Re: #6(6) Discipline 145 Re: Sarah Hickman Re: Discipline 145 - Rock Shows Lyrics exposure contributions Re: Discipline #145 crimson subconscious Discipline 145 Belew Press Kit Raisins, Psychodots that guy on bass Poseidon live/Hammill/McD &G/Jack-Knife/Dead-Crimson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 11:39:24 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Ferguson Subject: Cover art/Old question Hey there hi there ho there fellow Crimheads! Two quick questions and I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled programming: (1) Does anyone know where I can find a poster/lithograph of the cover art from _In the Court of the Crimson King_??? (2) Was any of the material from _Lizard_ ever performed live? Anyone have any recordings of it if it happened? (Okay, so that's three questions. Picky picky picky!) Thanks and here's looking forward to _Vrroom_ (and the tour!!!)!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark E. Ferguson | Information is not knowledge; knowledge is Indiana University | not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is Mathematics | not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not | music; music is the best. -- Frank Zappa -------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: waking up Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 14:28:58 EDT From: John Saylor Toby First of all I enjoy Discipline immensely. Your efforts are appreciated. [ Thank you -- T ] In a recent posting, "In the Wake of Posiden" was derided as being a second rate KC album. I put it on the turntable [after not having heard it for many years] and thought otherwise. While its similarities with "In the Court of the Crimson King" are undeniable, the execution of the music itself is excellent. Cat Food features great chromatic piano work by Tippet [as well as "jazz" guitar by Fripp, yikes!]. The various permutations of the theme in Scenes of a City [played faster and slower] as well as Fripp's slowly building guitar solo over the variation of the theme given to bass guitar are all quite wonderful. The Peace theme bits that are pasted on at the begining and end of the album are a bit artificial, but nice in their own way. Also, they give a sense of the cut and paste mechanism that's used in the construction of the musical fabric. The Devil's Triangle bit is a bit obsessive on the tritone, even for Fripp. I mean, it's a bloody great interval, but it's even better when contrasted with something. And the title track has a lot to recommend itself, nice mellotron especially. Also, looking at the album [and trying to read the text] made me think about Pete Sinfeld? I would be interested in knowing how did he get involved with KC, what lead to the split, and what has he done lately? Keep up the good work! jsaylor [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Trey Gunn Interview Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 13:29:42 EDT Sorry folks, The Trey Gunn interview has been inexplicably moved to issue #8 of i/e magazine. It was supposed to come out in #7 which comes out any day. Actually, I shouldn't say inexplicably... I imagine the change in timing has been made to coincide with the release of "Vrooom" in early November, which I suppose is a smart business move for the magazine. Anil Prasad wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 16:23:56 -0300 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Re: Discipline 145 I've got a long-standing question regarding Fripp's "exposure" album. I bought it when it first came out on vinyl, in the pre-CD era. When I bought it on CD years later, the mix on several songs was substantially different (and not always to my liking). THen, a *second* CD version came out as part of the Definitive Edition series. Are the mixes on the two CD versions the same? And is there any CD version of the original vinyl mixes? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 13:28:56 +0800 From: Richard dot Schiavi at Eng dot Sun dot COM (Rich Schiavi) Subject: RE: Psychos This is interesting. I didn't know the Breeders were from SW Ohio. Too bad they didn't stay there, I hate them, and I guess that is why Rob Fetters (Psychodots guitarist) was poking fun at the guitar playing being terrible when I saw them. I heard the Breeders guitarist (that is a complement) joined the band cuz she was the sister of the leader and didn't even know how to play guitar, so just learned, quoted as saying, "It isn't that hard". Uh, yeah, isn't hard to suck at I guess :-) Sorry to flame on them, but it is a *real* shame Psyhodots are getting overlooked. After seeing them recently open for and play with Belew I truly believe Fetters is a better guitarist than Belew. Nothing against Adrian, but Rob was wicked the night I saw him, and more technical, compared to Adrians sonic abilities. What a combo! I liked the Psychodots material better than Adrian's new stuff as well. Too many love songs on Adrian's new stuff. . .what happened stuff ala Fish Head! -Rich [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 11:30:52 -0400 From: "Mike . Brown" Subject: Psychos Hot off the Belew tour, the Psychodots played at the Canal Street Tavern in Dayton, Ohio Saturday night. This is the fifth time I've seen them and I've never been disappointed. The first set was just over an hour. They played a good selection from their two full length CDs as well as several unreleased/new songs. The "balloon song" for this show was "Living In A Lincoln". And as with the Belew show, Bob Nyswonger (sp) is also adding his voice to this home-made talkbox. The crowd pleasers were "Big Love Now" and "Moaner" which closed the first set. Also played were "Say Little Monkeys", "Though A Open Window" among the new/unreleased songs. With the recent "discovery" of SW Ohio as a hot-bed of talent (Breeders, Afgan Whigs, Over The Rhine, Guild By Voices) it's sad that these men have been overlooked. And after paying $50+charges to see a very disappointing Rolling Stones show two weeks ago, its good to know that $6 still buys a cool evening of entertainment. Mike [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] This [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Gordon Subject: re: Crimson lyrics Hi... As far as I know, the lyrics for Great Deceiver and the rest of Starless and Bible Black, were written by Richard Palmer-James, who also wrote lyrics for Lark's tongue, etc. No doubt, however, that the lyrics were "influenced" by fripp, but who was being spoken of? Hmmm? (after being accused of flaming and knowing, now, where copies of the digest end up, I wouldn't even guess at the last question) also, the Cheerful Insanity... was a rare disc BEFORE it was readily available on CD, out of print in the US for years...kinda' makes one wonder when "In a GLass House" by Gentle Giant will ever make it to CD... cheers! bruce, Lord of the Reedy River, purveyor of astrology, etymology and legerdemain. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 19:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: terry kroetsch f Subject: Re: stale chalk Sorry to do this, but if people can respond to my address I will be eternally grateful 1/ The person with BBC recordings of 1969-70 Crimson. Can you help get a tape or the name of a bootleg? 2/ re:McDonald and Giles: yes it is on CD - I bought one after deliberating the import price but now it seems readily available at normal CD prices - in Toronto at least. It sounds great, I love that record. Rumours are that there is a second LP (or is it a Giles solo?) on Voiceprint? Also a Jamie Muir solo. Can anyone help me here? As well, I like the first David Cross solo CD - how is the second? Never seen it. 3/ Could the person with the cdeurope catalogue send it to me? I'd love that. VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 18:26:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matthew F. McCabe" Subject: Fripp & Sylvian singles Greetings! I'm looking for disc #2 of the Fripp and Sylvian CD single for "Jean The Birdman" (includes; "Gone To Earth," "Tallow Moon," and "Dark Water".). My local record store says "Sorry, we can't order that." Thanks! Matt McCabe Able Cain finley at ecst dot csuchico dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:36:13 +0000 (.) From: BLEIHOLD?OSURF at OSURF400 dot RF dot OHIO-STATE dot EDU Subject: Re: Sarah Hickman In Discipline 145, there was a query as to who was Sara Hickman, etc. Sara is a folk/pop singer/songwriter, who has recently switched labels from Elektra to Discovery. Her new album is called, "Necessary Angels". On the first track, "Pursuit of Happiness", she is backed by Adrian Belew, Tony Levin, Jerry Marotta, and David Sancious. When she performed at Ludlow's in Columbus OH on 8/10, she introduced this song and mentioned the people who played on this track. It was rather disappointing that when she mentioned in the introduction, "Adrian Belew and Tony Levin, from King Crimson", only a small handful of people had actually heard of King Crimson (and responded accordingly). The rest of the audience was clueless. Chris Bleiholder bleiholder dot 1 at osu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 17:32:03 EDT From: Ron Peterson Subject: Toyah pictures There's been enough requests that I've uploaded the Toyah pictures to cs.uwp.edu in the /pub/incoming/lists/discipline area in JPEG format. If anyone has any leads on getting hold of her video's please send me a note. Ron ron at vicorp dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Crimson at eworld dot com Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 17:56:41 PDT Subject: Re: #6(6) Discipline 145 My first post to a great information.... Regarding FFWD - any idea how someone in the US might be able to acquire a copy? I see it referenced here and in other Crimson forums, but no hard data on if and when it might me released here, or of a good import source. And regarding Sylvian/Fripp: I saw a bad videotape copy of what looked to be a first rate production of an S/F concert in Japan (Japanese subtitles during the interview sections) Any ideas where I might be able to acquire a clean tape or laserdisc of this now, or if there might be an upcoming release of it in the fall to coincide with the S/F concert CD? Thanks Greg [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Chuck Ivy Subject: Re: Sarah Hickman Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 01:40:35 -0500 (CDT) > Subject: Sarah Hickman (????) > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 07:44:18 -0400 > From: "\"\"William N. Furman\"\"" > > Last night on the radio I heard a recording by Sarah Hickman (?) that had > Jerry Marotta, Adrian Belew, and Tony Levin playing on it. Does anyone > know who Sarah Hickman is, The name of the album, etc. Not quite more than you wanted to know about Sarah Hickman... * Her father is president of the Houston Society of Illustrators * She was a vocal music major at the High School for Performing and Visual Arts in Houston, Texas, and graduated in 1981. At that time, she drove a red Carmengia (sp?). (She gave my sister rides to school) * At various times she has lived in Houston, Dallas, and Austin Texas as well as Colorado. * She recorded two solo albums (mainly folk/rock singer/songwriter stuff) on a major label, has had appearances on the Tonight Show, the Arsinio Hall Show and others, as well as videos on MTV and VH1. * She recorded a third album, but her label decided not to release it. They still owned the rights to it, since it was recorded while she was in contract with them. She had to tour to raise money to buy her contract, and the album from the label so she could release it independently, which she has now done. * I don't know what albums/tracks have Crimson folk on them, but I'll try to find out... * She has also toured as part of a female trio called something like "Kitchen Science Project" * I can try to track her or her father down if there are further questions. --- . _____________________________ /:| / / : =| Chapman Stick | Chuck Ivy \:|___________________/__/___:_=| White Oak #240 | cei at po dot cwru dot edu ++ 3 years and counting | cei at math dot uh dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:52:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ray Ashley Subject: Re: Discipline 145 - Rock Shows in discipline 145: >that these men have been overlooked. And after paying $50+charges to >see a very disappointing Rolling Stones show two weeks ago, its good >to know that $6 still buys a cool evening of entertainment. > Mike Dude - you have learned the law of inversely proportional concert enjoyment: the less you pay to see a gig, the better it will be this is due to at least three metaphysical principals: a) Big corporate-controlled rock bands suck b) Smaller venues are better places to see gigs and charge less c) More money in the pocket provides feeling of well-being whenever I hear someone complain that they saw so-and-so rock legend down at the enormo-dome and it sucked, I remind them of this principle and then say what a great time I had down at the local tavern seeing a real band rock its collective ass off for three hours! R. A. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 19:44:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher of the Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: Lyrics >>I got my own copy of "Starless and Bible Black" over the past week, and >>what a fine recording it is. My only negative comment is the lyrics on >>"The Great Deceiver". Not the most, um, INTELLIGENT lyrics that Wetton >>whoever wrote, but the song is still good. >I think it was Fripp that wrote the lyrics to 'Great Deceiver'. You really >have to piece together the lyrics in contect with the rest of their lyrics. >I mean, they weren't exactly poetic, were they. I never really saw the need >for Crimson to have a vocalist at all, really. Their real power lay in the >music, not in the vocals, not matter how good a singer they used. I may be mistaken, but I am 99% sure that it was Richard Palmer-James who wrote the lyrics for the 1973-1974 Crimson. And I feel that Crimson does and always has benefitted with a vocalist and lyrics. True, their best moments are the instrumental ones, but peices like "Exiles" and "Starless" are given brilliant doses of melancholy by Palmer-James' lyrics and Wetton's voice. Without lyrics, "Starless" would not be a masterpiece, but merely an impressive prog-intstrumental in 13/8. And the eighties Crimson owes much of its musical riches to Belew's lyric-writing and voice. Again, that music would simply be muscular instrumentals and a Frippertronics museum without Belew's lyrics. His voice is what makes songs like "Frame by Frame" and "Matte Kudasai" beautiful. JP "I respond to enthusiasm" Mohan Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa mohanjp at grin dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 19:48:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher of the Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: exposure contributions One thing that is frustrating on my EG CD release of Exposure is the Fripp credits several musicians in the booklet, but does not say what they played or on what songs. For example, both Phil Collins and Jerry Marotta are mentioned, but which songs do they play drums on. It's surprisingly hard to tell just by listening. Could someone out there provide me with a line-up of the musicians on this album, including what they played and on what tracks? It would be very enlightening to know, what with Fripp's all-star cast. JP "Batterie" Mohan Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa mohanjp at grin dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ottari at ismennt dot is (Ottar Isberg) Subject: Re: Discipline #145 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 10:23:18 +0000 (GMT) The name "VROOOM" Where does this name come from. The closest thing I can imagine os from Borlands C++ where VROOMM stands for Virtual Object Oriented Memory Manager. But this one has two O4s and two M's. Any way it will be quite interesting to hear what Robert & Co. have to offer this time. Does any one knoe what this new instrument is that is to be STUNNING on "Live from Argentina" ?. Thank you Robert for the correspondance. Robert, why don't you come to Iceland for a minature concert?. I expect that a full KC might be to costly but keep in mind Iceland is half way between Europe and USA . If you need further information you can mail me. Regards [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 15:54:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Watcher of the Skies (John P Mohan) Subject: crimson subconscious I thought you all might be interested in the Crimson-induced dream I had last night. I had the CD player on all night as I slept (as I always do) and my CD of choice last night happened to be the first disc of The Great Deceiver. My dream was about some war or war movie, there were a lot of combat scenes and I was in some of them. The soundtrack for the movie was done by Roger Waters (not surprising considering his obsession with miliraty themes). I was watching one scene of the movie, and the music in the background sounded strangely like the 13/8 buildup of "Starless". I thought, "Boy, now Roger Waters is ripping off King Crimson!" After waking up I realized that that portion of the dream had been ever so slightly influenced by "Starless" playing in the background. This happens to me frequently, and my dreams often have soundtracks supplied by the likes of King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, and Pink Floyd (there was one dream about a year ago where "Elephant Talk" was being played at a football game, but I won't go into that). Thank you for taking a moment to let me share my insignificant little anecdote with you all. JP "My Mate Atman" Mohan Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa mohanjp at grin dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 30 Aug 94 19:56:04 EST From: mdorman at mallet dot tiac dot net (michael alan dorman) Subject: Discipline 145 >The things on Tony Levin's hands are similar to drumsticks. I don't know >exactly what they are, but he like them a lot. On the So album (Peter Gabriel) >there are credits for "drumstick bass" which is played by Levin as well >as Jerry Marotta. They give a sharp, strong attack, and highlight the >upper timbres of the instrument. I have worked up a rudimentary version I saw Paul Simon on his last tour actually drum on the strings of a bass (being held by someone else) with a pair of drumsticks. Quite interesting, apart from the incongruity--it was almost like he was "drumming" a chord. Mike. -- 'People think I'm crazy, but I'm in demand.' [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:51:33 -0400 (EDT) From: MERRILL TRITT Subject: Belew Press Kit The other day I picked up a copy of Adrian Belew's _Mr. Music Head_ on LP and inside the cover was a presskit for the album (complete with glossy photo). Belew talks about the making of the album and the making of and meaning/idea behind the songs. If anyone would like to see this, I'd be more than happy to type it all out for everyone. Merrill Tritt mtritt01 at servax dot fiu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 01 Sep 1994 08:19:05 -0400 From: "Mike . Brown" Subject: Raisins, Psychodots cdconnection.com list the Raisins CD and two Psychodot CDs on their online service. All were around $11 US. Bonus tracks were added to the Raisins CD ( 3 I think). Adrian produced the album. The Psychodot Moaner EP however, was not listed. Mike [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 01 Sep 1994 08:43:17 -0400 From: "Mike . Brown" Subject: that guy on bass The Oxford, OH radio station 97X WOXY, has a yearly "best unsigned band" contest. The winning band gets some studio time, and an opening slot for some national acts for a show or two at Bogart's. And, of course Xposure. This year, 178 bands entered. Many of which, I'm sure, were talented high school/college garage bands, which I would think, the contest is aimed at. The winner was Brian Lovely And The Seekers (Secrets?)! Brian was Adrian's bass player on his Inner Rev. tour. In a interview, Brian mentioned that, after some Jazz greats, Belew was perhaps his biggest influence. He also mention that Belew has influenced so many bands - many of which wouldn't claim to it. He played a couple fine acoustic numbers during the interview. With his connections, I would expect his "unsigned" status to soon change. (calling Caroline). Mike [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: StephenBkr at aol dot com Date: Fri, 02 Sep 94 00:09:00 EDT Subject: Poseidon live/Hammill/McD &G/Jack-Knife/Dead-Crimson Re: Live Poseidon >From Discipline #143: >From: terry kroetsch f >P.S. I have that WONDERFUL 1969-70 BBC In the Court of the >Crimson King performance (that one song) but is there more >from that session? And nothing >from Wake of Poseidon >performed live EVER? KC played Pictures of a City and Devil's Triangle live. On November 25, 1971, I saw King Crimson at the Academy of Music in New York City (in later years called the Palladium)- what a show! Yes was the opening act (Wakeman's first US tour, BB on drums), Crimson was second bill, and Procol Harum was top bill. The set list: Cirkus, Pictures of a City, Formenterra Lady, Sailor's Tale (w/ VCS-3 drum solo), Schizoid Man, Devil's Triangle/Mars. (It was an especially memorable couple of days, because ELP played at Madison Square Garden the next night!) Also, according to the liner notes to Frame by Frame, that edition of Crimson also played Cadence and Cascade on occasion. (Cat Food we know about from The Great Deceiver) Re: Hammill imitates Fripp >From Discipline #145 >Malcolm Humes writes: This reminds me >of some VdGG concert recording I've heard where there's some >audience cheer to "BRING OUT FRIPP! BRING OUT FRIPP!" When I saw VdGG play in New York in '76, throughout the course of the evening, several people were yelling "Fripp!" Finally, when someone yelled out "bring out Fripp!" during a quiet moment inbetween songs, Hammill retorted "Listen- Fripp's been trying to bring out Fripp for years and every time he succeeds it's disaster for the world...." I'm sure that the Crimheads in other VdGG venues tormented PH in a similar fashion. Re: McDonald and Giles >From Discipline #145 >Chris King writes: Does anyone know if >the McDonald and Giles album was ever released on cd? McDonald and Giles was released on CD in Japan several years ago on Atlantic (Warner-Pioneer). The Cadence and Cascade song was Flight of the Ibis. Re: Jack-Knife >From Discipline # 145: >MERRILL TRITT writes: > Does anyone have a copy of Wetton's _Jack-knife_.... FYI, Jack-Knife was a band with Wetton, Curt Cress on drums, Richard Palmer-James on guitar, and John Hutcheson on keyboards. They made one album called " I Wish You Would", consisting of blues covers and semi-funky/r'n'r.... some original songs and songs like Sonny Boy Williamson's "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl" and "Eyesight to the Blind" (a la synths and sequencers). Most prog heads don't care for this record, but I like it, because the band sounds like they're having fun. I don't think it has ever been released on CD, although "Eyesight to the Blind" was included on the "King's Road" Wetton compilation CD. I don't know if it was ever released in the US on vinyl; I picked up a used Japanese LP the last time I was in Tokyo. As for myself, I'm looking for a copy of Mogul Thrash. Re: the Dead and Crimson Funny, I've always thought that despite considerable differences in the music itself, there is a strong parallel between the Dead and Crimson, particularly with regard to the cultish aspects of their followers, as well as the more obvious parallels: a seminal place in the history of rock'n'roll, their respective influence on countless other bands, several dramatic changes in style over their long histories, their dedication to improvisation. In fact, more than once, I've used the comparision to the Dead to help my uninitiated friends grok the entire Crimson phenomenon. Personally, I hope that a Dead/Crimson bill never happens, if only for the fact that that would mean stadium concerts, which as we all know are one of the great evils of the modern age along with AstroTurf. Stephen Baker [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at discipline-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at discipline-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. I'm sorry, but I cannot mail out back issues personally. ** WWW http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/discipline.html ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only. Discipline is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Thanks for reading Discipline! Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]