From discipline at arastar dot com Sat Jul 2 09:24:21 1994 Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 01:00:45 +0800 From: discipline at arastar dot com To: discipline at anthor dot arastar dot com Subject: Discipline 141 D I S C I P L I N E The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 141, Friday, 1 July 1994 Today's Topics: Strings Gong Fetters/Bears Mocking Fripp Earthstone/Kinesis Selling off KC vinyl Re: Haskell and music publisher LIZARD oops! "Soundscape" Discipline : David Torn Mailing List dr diamond & (v)froommm Lizard cover art and Happy Family lyrics/Cobain Popularity of KC in the 90's USA/new line up Re: Darashan single Belew/Crimson following Collectors' Edition: 3 Limited Edition Picture Discs Argentinian "tour" dates 'Radio On' help!! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ** POSTERS, PLEASE NOTE: Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk, NOT to Ken Bibb (which may happen if you are a USA subscriber and you just hit your 'Reply' key). Thanks -- Toby. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 13:58:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Joe Ozelis - FNAL : (708) 840-2525" Subject: Strings In Discipline 140 Ron Peterson writes >Subject: Strings >> a real bitch to play? Fripp responded testily, "I'm telling you, it's >> *not* the string gauges that are causing strings to snap," ending all >> discussion on the matter. >I agree with him to some extent. Even understanding metal fatigue and how >the mechanics of tension and bending wire over edges can lead to breakage, >there is a certain variability in when a string will actually break. You >can't say that a string of .032 inches diameter bent at a point 2.3 feet >from one end at a 30 degree angle will always break at exactly 15.7 pounds >of tension. Sometimes it will be 14.9 pounds, sometimes 15.75 pounds. And >sometimes it will break at the bend and sometimes in the middle. So when a >string gets close to it's breaking point what actually causes it to break? >A physicist might say that it's a quantum fluctuation. This singular event >occurs that has a certain statistical predictability yet in and of itself >is completely uncertain in location in time and space. Thus, the nature of >the universe and how the universe happens and becomes and changes is what >determines when the string actually breaks. It might be that a >gravitational wave emanating from the collapse of a distance galaxy is what >causes the fluctuation that triggers the break. Or, it seems possible that >the thought of a human being might exist on that same quantum level and >could cause changes at that level. The sum of all the fluctuations in >existance at any moment is what determines what happens. Whether there is >some outside influence that alters these fluctuations is a matter of >individual belief. > ron at vicorp dot com Well, I'm a physicist and I say it is most definitely *not* a quantum fluctuation. The "breaking" or fracture of any macroscopic object is not goverened by quantum mechanical laws, but simply by classical physics. The reason there is an "indeterminacy" in the breakage point of a steel string has more to do with the varaiations in the both the material comprising the string and it's diameter. A 0.032" string is not going to be *exactly* 0.032" in diamter along its entire length. There wil be small variations in the diameter due to the manufacturing process, which will be randomly distributed along the string's length. These fluctuations in the diameter will lead to stress concentrations that will exceed the yield strength of the material, and so the string will break, at *seemingly* random places and at random loadings. Similarly, impurities in the steel composition will alter the yield strength of the string locally, thereby leading to "weak" spots in the string. It has *nothing* to do with quamtum mechanical fluctuations of the component atomic wavefunctions. For QM fluctuations to have an effect (dominate), the string itslef would have to be manufactured to such a precision that you could control the location and number of individual iron and carbon atoms, such that the lattice structure was perfect. And that can not be done. (As soon as you expose the string to air, you get oxidations which change the molecular structure at the surface of the string, yielding *macroscopic* imperfections.) And as for the contention that "the nature of the universe..." or "a gravitational wave...." "...triggers the break", or even "...that thought of a human being..." could do it... well, I haven't heard such a load of metaphysical bull***t since my undergraduate philosophy of science class ! Joe Ozelis Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory ozelis at fnalv dot fnal dot gov [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 13:02:47 -0600 From: David Ewing Subject: Gong In Discipline #140, Clive Backham wrote: > In Discipline #139, David Ewing wrote: > >One of Gong's first drummers, Pip Pyle, who went > >on to play with Hatfield and the North and National Health was superb at > >playing in this fast, light, jazzy style. He only played on the first(?) > >Gong album "Magick Brother, Mystick Sister" (not Gong at their best) if I > >remeber correctly. > The drummer on Magick Brother was Rachid Houari. > Official releases that Pip Pyle played on are "Camembert Electrique", > "Continental Circus", "Obsolete" (by Dashiell Hedayat, but backed by Gong), > the Gong set on the Glastonbury Fayre '71 album, and one track on Daevid > Allen's solo album "Banana Moon". Oops. Clive is right. The danger of posting from work when your records are at home. I was indeed thinking of "Camembert Electrique", not "Magick Brother, Mystick Sister", when I wrote this. > >After David Allen and Steve Hillage left, > >Moerlen turned Gong into a much less interesting fusion band, however. > IMHO, Moerlen's Gong was a *very* interesting fusion band. Their first four > efforts ("Gaseuze", "Expresso II", "Downwind" and "Time is the Key") are > all first-rate stuff. ("Shamal" doesn't count as a Moerlen album, it was > transitional, and excellent to boot). I was very disappointed when "Shamal" came out. I'll have to go back and give these a listen. I've never been a big fan of fusion (at least the American kind - eg, Return to Forever). I do love jazz (Miles, Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, Sun Ra, etc.) and I loved the jazz-rock (for lack of a better word) that came out of Canterbury (Soft Machine, Hatfield and the North, National Health, etc.). *************************************************************************** David A. Ewing Avalanche Development Company david at avalanche dot com Boulder, Colorado *************************************************************************** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 13:11:42 PDT From: charly at hal dot com (Charly Rhoades) Subject: Fetters/Bears Mocking Fripp > From: "Lee S. Kilpatrick" (Mr. Breeze) > Subject: Re: Adrian Belew/Psychodots review > > During the "guitar solo" part of Elephant Talk, one of the crew stuck a > stool behind Fetters. He sat on it and did a good impersonation of Fripp, > looking intently at his guitar as he hunched over it & played, and > occasionally snuck a furtive glance at the audience. This inside joke has been running at least since 1987, when we saw The Bears in Cincinnati, and Fetters did the same impersonation during the solo, accompanied by much mugging and guffawing by the rest of the band. I think they repeated it during The Bears show I saw in Santa Clara, CA in 1988... Charly Rhoades HaL Computer Systems What country should you adopt charly at hal dot com if you hate poor people? http://www.hal.com/~charly - HOLZER [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: lkolota at sed dot csc dot com (Larry Kolota) Subject: Earthstone/Kinesis Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 17:49:44 -0400 (EDT) A friend forwarded me the review of Earthstone that appeared in Discipline #140. As I run the Kinesis label, thought I'd post something to tell people where they can buy Earthstone's CD. People in the USA can email me for the free Kinesis color catalog at: lkolota at sed dot csc dot com People outside the USA should send 2 IRCs or $1 cash for the catalog. They will be able to deduct $1 from their first order. We accept Mastercard and Visa. The address is: Kinesis Inc. 1430 Wisp Ct Hanover, MD 21076 USA Tel/Fax: 410-551-8081 All the Kinesis CDs are $15 postpaid to North America, $16 to South America, $17 to Europe, and $18 to Asia/Australia. If someone really wants to email a credit card order, they can I suppose, but I don't want to encourage it, as this computer account is courtesy of my employer. They might not take kindly to the Kinesis business. For God's sake, spell the email address right so the system administrator doesn't have to deal with it! Larry Kolota President, Kinesis Inc. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Tim Szeliga Subject: Selling off KC vinyl Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 13:29:05 CDT I'm going to Woodstock and to finance my trip I'm selling off large chunks of my library and music collection. I have McDonald & Giles (on Cotillion), The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles and Fripp (on Deram), Fripp and Toyah, The Lady or the Tiger, Johnny G, Water into Wine (with a surprising Delta Blues version of 21st Century Schizoid Man, in the style of Robert Johnson), Various National Health/Hatfield/DS&BG - eight or ten singles w/ covers all on vinyl and in very good shape. I will entertain offers for the above by email. Send inquiries to tim at snow dot nohrsc dot nws dot gov. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 16:57:36 -0800 From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold) Subject: Re: Haskell and music publisher I just want to remind fellow readers that Haskell's 1992 release "Hambledon Hill" was phenomenal. In my 700+ CD collection, which admittedly has a lot of drek, this CD is among my top ten favorites. And I have to say I am not a real Haskell fan, I despise his voice on Cadence and Cascade (Poseidon) and on Lizard. But I love this CD. This CD is reviewed in the April 10 '93 Discipline #86, so scan that archive if you're curious about it. Summary: "Roy Harper Meets Indigo Girls." I don't know if the "phenomenal" stuff described in Robin Martinez' post (via David Altemir, 20 Jun 94, Discipline #140) is that CD or a new one, but I hope Gordon's music gets at least a tiny bit more "available." I don't want to have to go to Japan again to find a stock of Haskell music! (Well, I mean, I wouldn't mind living in Japan, in fact I'm thinking very seriously about it, and another vacation visit is very much in the cards as well, I'm just pointing out that going there is a highly non-trivial event in my life, especially just to buy CDs...but I digress) - Brian ---------------- Brian Arnold arnold at lumina dot com Director of Software Development Lumina Decision Systems, Inc. http://www.lumina.com/lumina/ ---------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 01:32:17 EDT From: Subject: LIZARD Here are my answers to the recent questions regarding the LIZARD album. 1.On the front of the album (the "Crimson" side) we have illustations for "Cirkus", "Lady of the Dancing Water", "Happy Family", and "Indoor Games." In addition we have the letters "M" and "O", which I cannot identify. Finally, the letter "N" has, I believe Jimi Hendrix, Ian Anderson (or Mel Collins or Ian McDonald) and Ginger Baker. The back side (the "King" side) seems to be illustrated for the title track, although the letter "C" could be another take on "Happy Family." 2.The Beatles references may be as follows:Judas is Paul, who wrote Hey Jude, and is credited as being the first Beatle to officially "leave", drawing the pruning knife. Jonah is John, who drew a wife. Rufus is Ringo, who had a big nose to begin with ;). Silas is George, who grew a beard and got into the Maharishi, and other "weird" stuff. On the cover, letter "I", they are from left to right: George, Paul, John (with Yoko), and Ringo. Hope this helps, Peace Terry [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 01:03:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Gordon Subject: oops! Hi folks, I'm very sorry that I caused Toby to have to say what he did and err on the side of...whatever...I'm not really sure what a "flame" is, other than a form of elemental. I have been a columnist and reviewer and Radio DJ for at least 16 years or so and I've never been censured, ever. Well there's a first time for everything. Has anyone ever heard of Alexander Wollcott? In my time I have also met quite a few people we may describe as "celebrities," and had all the usual positive and negative relationships with them, as we all have with people we meet every day. I don't feel that I was being all that harsh, but if I offended anyone, I'm sorry...and I am an american: I breathe the air of jerkdom and hypocracy every day...oops! There I go again. I think I owe the pope royalties again. Once again, mea culpa (pardon the pun) and I'm sorry bruce (bruceg at u dot washington dot edu) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Bwanagreg at aol dot com Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 12:26:46 EDT Subject: "Soundscape" I got interrupted before I could get to my "Sounscape" question (#140)... I have an Italian import of the RF String Quartet entitled "Soundscape". I bought it from Wayside music (alas, it was not a regularly stocked item). Has anyone else heard this - I think it is even better than the Discipline release, especially the sound quality. It was a live recording, but there is NO information on the disc other than a recording date of November 1992. Is this from the live Japanese TV broadcast (I also just got the "Live in Japan" video which has the same recording date). Anyway, if you find them, get both of these recordings! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 26 Jun 94 11:03:21 GMT From: pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk (Pete Cole) Subject: Discipline : David Torn Mailing List Hi Toby, There were quite a few mentions of David Torn in the last issue of Discipline. Just to take some of the load off you ;), you might like to tell the list that, yes, the David Torn list - Door X (or is that Dorks ?) still exists, and is coming up to issue 6 shortly ! 30-ish subscribers and rising ! Anybody out there interested in subscribing, drop me an email ... pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk Have fun y'all, Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Cole pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 08:23:53 BST From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: dr diamond & (v)froommm a couple of short ones was dr diamond ever released as a studio track? (no sign of it on the discog) any history of it? should the aus discipliarians (whatever happened to the name change toby? not that i mind - i like discipline, and am not fawning enough to yield to all fripp's requests, especially when he don't tour here) get together and bulk order the ep from a US reader or something like cdc? jeremy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: StephenBkr at aol dot com Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 10:48:57 EDT Subject: Lizard cover art and Happy Family lyrics/Cobain Both Jeremy and Gabriel are absolutely correct about the depiction of the Beatles on the cover of Lizard and the corresponding lyrics of "Happy Family". In the fall of1971, I wrote to "Crimso Communications" and received back a 12-page autographed newsletter from Peter Sinfield. In that newsletter (now somewhat tattered and faded from age) Sinfield discussed at length the previous history of Crimson, the then-current lineup (Collins-Boz-Wallace), and the then-upcoming new tour and album. He also included a brief outline of the meaning of his lyrics from the first three LPs. I quote: "HAPPY FAMILY" is about the split-up of the Beatles and not about ourselves as some may have thought. You can work out who's who for yourself. "You know the sound of two hands clapping, but do you know the sound of one hand clapping?" An old Zen proverb. And now for something completely different: Ramiz wrote about the Darshan remixes and noticed a writing credit for "Cobain". If my memory serves me correctly, sometime in the past year or so, Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers was interviewed in Musician, and he mentioned that he had done some sessions with Fripp and Kurt Cobain. Unfortunately, I have long since thrown out that issue, so I can't check it for accuracy. Someone else out there might still have the issue... Stephen Baker [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 13:34:47 +0400 (EDT) From: "Robert A. Bartz" Subject: Popularity of KC in the 90's Someone mentioned about how many people/who would see a band like Crimson in the 90's, considering the musical tastes of "Generation X"(I HATE labels) and the like. I'd like to make a comment on this. Last October, my brother and I had the opportunity to see Steve Hackett perform live in Buffalo, NY. He played at a small club called The Icon. We figured we might see maybe 50 to 100 people maximum at the show. But to our surprise, the place was JAMMED! The whole area from the stage to the back floor, plus all around the bar area was full. Of course, most were over 30, but still I couldn't believe how many people showed. Now, if you take a name like KC, which is probably more well known than Hackett's solo work, I would think they could fill concert halls without a problem. I would think I'm one of the few of my generation into Fripp's music(I'm 19), but there's still a large support for them. Can't wait for the tour to hit the States! Until next time, Bob -- rbartz at telerama dot lm dot com "I never doubted the teachers, only the Laceration, the newest name lessons they taught." - Flotsam and Jetsam, in metal...coming soon! "Swatting At Flies" Jack Kemp in '96 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 27 Jun 1994 15:07:21 U From: "Jessup, Andrew" Subject: USA/new line up A couple of observations on current (as of late April) discussion topics (please ignore if things have been clarified since #132): Re: USA--The second edition: My guess is that this would be a single-disc sampler from the Great Deceiver box (similar to the relationship between the Concise KC and Frame by Frame). If so, I'd say it's about even odds that it would consist entirely of the Providence show (basically, disc one of Great Deceiver with Schizoid Man substituted for the track Providence). Mind you, this isn't necessarily what I'm hoping for -- I'd rather have some live material from the 80's band. Re: The new sextet line-up: In light of the comments Fripp made in the 1984 Musician interview about tensions within KC (specifically about Bruford's unwillingness to supply a basic pulse, generally about feeling forced by all the others to be the musical "ground" upon which they could build, but not being offered the opportunity in kind), it strikes me that what they've done is gone out and gotten a rhythm section. If this is the general idea, one wonders how Trey and Pat (?) will feel about having to remain earthbound... -- Andrew [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Re: Darashan single Organisation: IRISA / INRIA Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 14:40:02 +0200 From: Eric Rutten >From: RAMIZ at vms dot huji dot ac dot il@cs.man.ac.uk Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 13:37 +0300 Subject: Darashan single Yesterday i spotted in a local store a 12" single of Darashan (two versions), and post since i don't recall reference to it in previous digests, hope this info hasn't got a beard... The details are from my memory, coz it was far too expensive imo: ... ______________________________________________________________________ is this the vynil equivalent to the mini-CD? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eric Rutten | room: 221 (Green 338) IRISA / INRIA | phone: +33 99 84 72 33 Campus de Beaulieu | fax: +33 99 84 71 71 F-35042 RENNES CEDEX - FRANCE | e-mail: rutten at irisa dot fr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 28 Jun 94 16:33:12 EDT From: fischer at falcons dot ent dot ohiou dot edu (Chris Fischer) Subject: Belew/Crimson following I caught Adrian at Bogarts in Cincinnati, which is pretty much the home town of the Psychodots/Bears/Raisins. My impression was that the 3 crimson songs he did (Elephant, Heartbeat, & Matte) got a MUCH bigger response from the crowd than any of the rest of the stuff he did. I was frankly bored with the other material. I found it largely uncreative & repetitive. The only reason I stuck around for the entire show was the hope of another KC tune. -Chris fischer at falcons dot ent dot ohiou dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 28 Jun 94 14:22:25 -0700 From: relph at presto dot ig dot com (John Relph) Subject: Collectors' Edition: 3 Limited Edition Picture Discs I just saw the following in a record store in Sacramento, California: 1989? Collectors' Edition: 3 Limited Edition Picture Discs Limited edition box set of three picture disc CDs contains In the Court of The Crimson King (?), In the Wake of Poseidon (?), and Lizard (?). CDx3 UK Virgin TPAK ? Does anybody out there actually own this little item? If so, please send me catalog numbers and all the rest of that info so I can update the Fripp discography. Thank you, -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:56:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: Argentinian "tour" dates Does anyone have dates & venues for the Argentinian warm-up that King Crimson are meant to be doing in September? Does anyone know the paperwork required for a British citizen to get into Argentina? Mike -- The "usual disclaimers" apply. | Meiko Mike Stok | 130C Baker Ave. Ext Mike dot Stok at meiko dot concord dot ma dot us | Concord, MA 01742 Meiko tel: (508) 371 0088 x124 | [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 10 Jun 1994 18:08:00 +0100 From: MPE at hop dot dinoco dot de (Michael Peters) Subject: 'Radio On' help!! >From the end of the seventies I remember a black+white movie called 'Radio On' (*not* Radio Days). It was a Wim Wenders-like sort of road movie with that special late-seventies feeling to it, and a soundtrack consisting of Kraftwerk, Bowie, and also Fripp (with 'Urban Landscape' and assorted music from the 'Exposure' album). I haven't seen the movie since but I liked it a lot. Is there anybody out there who has a copy? -M Michael Peters mpe at hop dot dinoco dot de CIS 100041,247 ## CrossPoint v2.93 ## [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ----- ADMINISTRIVIA ----- ** POSTINGS Please send all postings to Toby Howard, at toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** SUBSCRIPTIONS/ADDRESS CHANGES USA subscribers: please contact Ken Bibb at discipline-request at arastar dot com. Non-USA subscribers: please contact Toby Howard, at discipline-request at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. ** ARCHIVES The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. I'm sorry, but I cannot mail out back issues personally. ** LEGALESE The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only. Discipline is released for the personal use of readers. No commercial use may be made of the material unless permission is granted by the author. Thanks for reading Discipline! Toby Howard http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/staff-db/toby-howard.html [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]