Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #133 D I S C I P L I N E The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 133, Friday, 29 April 1994 Today's Topics: The Robert Fripp String Quintet two of a perfect pair The Original Cover Art for Islands Re: Various posts Two drummers in King Crimson--explanations? Summers & KC Discipline : David Torn (Cloud About Mercury) Re: Fripp in MOJO NEW STEVE HOWE INTERVIE Re: Definitive Editions Islands Cover First Crimson, 3oaPP, U E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E & Torn Re: Discipline #131 Fripp interview Bearsville New Fripp/Sylvian bootappendage New KC Drummers The mystery busker fripp/hendrix [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 11:03:44 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: archive now up to date Following a period of disk space problems at our archive site, ftp.uwp.edu, which are now fixed, I've uploaded the missing archives(115 to 132) so we should be up to date now. The archives are in /pub/music/lists/discipline. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 13:22:17 PST From: "grant green" Subject: The Robert Fripp String Quintet I just happened across a fantastic CD: "The Bridge Between" by the Robert Fripp String Quintet. The quintet is RF, Trey Gunn, and the California Guitar Trio. Tracks are: Kan-Non Power Yamanashi Blues Hope Chromatic Fantasy Contrapunctus Bicycling to Afganistan Blue Blockhead Passacaglia Threnody for Souls in Torment RF is credited with guitar and Frippertronics, TG with Grand Stick, and the CGT with acoustic guitars. The pieces range from crafty guitar work to frippertronic electronic excursions. Just what I needed to tide me over until the next KC release! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:37:22 -0500 From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) Subject: two of a perfect pair Was I the only one to smile when reading that a second drummer had been added to the new KC? Of course -- you need two "normal" drummers to replace a Bill Bruford! Then again, if you believe all rumors, then there are now three drummers in Crimso.... heh. Seriously, I think there is the possibility for some great music to come out of the new KC. My comment above notwithstanding, the two drummers will make for some interesting rhythms. Note that we're moving away from the "stripped down" sparseness of 1980's Crimso. Change is good. I liked what they did with "Waiting Man" and "Satori in Tangiers" live with two drummers. A jumping-off point for some possibilities. With doubled drums, bass, and guitar, this group will have to be very tight musically to avoid stepping on each other and saturating the aural spectrum. King Crimson, of course, is just the band to do such a thing. I don't believe Bruford would be very comfortable playing with another drummer in a group. He's _toured_ with three different drummers -- Collins, White, and Belew, but during the creative process I don't think it would work well. Maybe with Belew on the kit. BB seems to know what he wants to play and hear, and clashed somewhat with RF's rhythmic ideas on occasion. In my opinion, Earthworks is where BB belongs, at least for now. He's with musicians that have the same "blowing" mentality, and the ideas are flowing. I can't wait for the live album to finally come out. -===-John R. Nash-==-nash at chem dot wisc dot edu-==-UW-Madison Chem. Dept-===- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 22:36:57 EDT From: starmer at isnet dot is dot wfu dot edu (John Starmer) Subject: The Original Cover Art for Islands In the previous newsletter KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org wrote Oliver B. Warzecha (obw at ux2 dot chemie dot uni-dortmund dot de) wrote: : Brett Strausser (strauss at osi dot ncsl dot nist dot gov) wrote: : : I have a copy of the LP and the tuning is on it. It is a copy with the : : original cover painted by Sinfield (looks like hell). : Painted cover?? What does it look like? Never heard of that before. Indeed. The original cover, and the only one I've ever seen, is an astronomical photograph (Triffid Nebula in Sagittarius if memory serves). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ As far as I know, the original release of Islands was released in the US as Atlantic SD 7212 and the cover art was infact by Peter Sinfield. I've got the album sitting in front of me and the art consists of a small tie-dyed island on the front and two similar islands on the back. It was released in 1972 and I am not sure when or why the cover was changed to the "astronomical photograph". On the inside of the cover are the lyrics/band information one one side and an "island" which is a collage of concert photographs of the band members. starmer at isnet dot is dot wfu dot edu (Jack Starmer) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 12:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott T. Lillis" Subject: Re: Various posts Greg Aranda wrote: >To strip "Starless" of that section is, in essence, equivalent to a >disregard for the life that is intrinsic to that piece. It is, I am >sad to say, an unnecessary surgery that renders the piece crippled; >bereft of a lifeforce ..... I agree that the instumental build up is an integral part of the song, but I think the vocal section is a very moving piece in and of itself. I actually use this in making mixes for non-Crimson listeners that I wish to 'go easy on'. Some people can't handle the more twisted aspects of Crimson like that instrumental build up(or Fracture or Indiscipline...). Needless to say, that intesity is what I love about this music, it makes it very,well, Crimson. I think that should be a general adjective for music. I use it all the time. David Altemir wrote: >Anyway, I hope that KC can utilize the 2 drummers much the same way as >the 2 guitarists were used to create mosaics in the previous KC >reincarnation. Wow, Imagine overlapping two drum tracks in different time signitures as was done with the guitars on Discipline and Frame by Frame. That could be pretty f*cking cool. Especially if the guitars were overlapped in the same manner and at the same time. That could also get a little out of hand, but imagine the possibilities... >Am I the only one that thought the ex-Policeman could >have been a candidate for a reincarnation of King Crimson? I dunno. I wasn't too impressed with Bewitched or whatever that project was that they did. I like the Police, but they seem a bit far removed >from Crimson, IMHO. Jim Hannigan wrote: >Someone in the previous issue mentioned the changes made in remastering >on The Mincer, and I was hoping to get opinions on whether to get the CD >or find a used album copy. I'd buy the CD. The change isn't enough to loose an sleep over. I suggest you search out the live recording from Amsterdam with the WHOLE Mincer improv(without vocals of course). Fracture just sounds amazing on CD though. Go buy it now! >With all the talk about Sleepless and so on, I'd like to be careful. Well those changes a more akin to remixes so common with Techno and Dance Music(like Skinny Puppy and such bands). I must say that is what I dislike most about Sleepless. I have a version with more interesting drums on it though. It is usually pretty good live too. I think Fripp was less able to restrain Bruford in concert. Though I can just imagine a little shocking device that gives Bruford a little jolt when he starts playing off-beat rhythms(sorry for the silly digression, I couldn't resist) JP Mohan commented on Exposure: >I was pleasantly surprised to find many "big names" among the contributing >musicians, such as Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Jerry Marotta, >Barry Andrews... Yeah and Micheal Walden played on there too. He's not very popular but he's well known among MahaVishnu John McGlaughlin fans. He is a very talented drummer. Check out Visions of the Emerald Beyond it is supperb. BTW, Fripp mention in the Great Deceiver book that they played a show with the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Does any one have that show(or and McGlaughlin shows actually)? Oh, to hear my two favorite guitarists in the same show... > BTW, I'm really glad to see that Discipline does not restrict itself >to Crimson alone, I hope it stays open to all ideas, thoughts, and >opinions. Yes, but eventually all things must come back to Crimson ;-) Sorry for the massive post , but it has been a while. Scott Lillis [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: sanderso at gac dot edu (Scott T Anderson) Subject: Two drummers in King Crimson--explanations? Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 15:57:47 (CDT) What is this talk about two drummers now? I have inferred that the other drummer (other than Marotta, that is) will be Bruford. Firstly, I doubt that this is the case, as Bruford and Fripp don't seem to get along too well anymore. However, IF Bruford (or anyone else) is added, that's great. I will interrupt myself now, because I think I remember that the talk of the second drummer was referring to Belew playing drums on some stuff. If THAT'S what's going on, that's great too. Why am I in support of this? King Crimson has had dual drummers twice--on Larks' Tongues (Muir played "allsorts" of percussion, including drum kit with Bruford on Larks' Part Two) and in the '80s, when Belew and Bruford doubled-up (like on "Satori (Sartori?) in Tangier"). Regardless of the lineup, I WANT MY NEW KING CRIMSON! Scott T. Anderson sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: javasque at eos dot ncsu dot edu Subject: Summers & KC Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 14:17:25 EDT I agree with David when he says that it would have been really interesting to have Andy Summers in the new KC. Also I was expecting David Sylvian to give it a try... but probably his ego is to big to sail under the KC banner. David Torn would have been an interesting choice judging from "Cloud About Mercury" and his work with Sylvian. I wish these artists would come up with something similar to "This Mortal Coil" or the Medium concept, so to every now and then release 70+ minute CD's filled with collaborations. Just an idea... Anyway, can somebody out there comment on Elliott Sharp? What is his music like, recommendations, blah, blah.... ciao, Jaime [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 19:20:52 GMT From: pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk (Peter Cole) Subject: Discipline : David Torn (Cloud About Mercury) > From: allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 18:26:27 PST > Subject: Bruford, Holdsworth, Wyatt, Frippertronics > > 5) Finally, would anyone care to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) > re: David Torn/Mark Isham/Tony Levin/Bill Bruford album "Cloud About > Mercury"? If this territory has been covered, forgive me, I'm new > here... > Glad someone asked about this one ! IMHO 8) this is one of the *greatest* albums. Absolutely *burns*, totally intense. I got the album in the first place 'cos I had heard Torn on a Jan Garbarek album, where I was pretty knocked-out by Torn's totally weird approach to the guitar, and also and because I'm a *long* term Bruford fan ! I was hooked on the album from the very start, when Bruford's polyphonic synth drums pulse in ... Actually, this album (for me) features Bruford's best ever electronic drum playing. Add that to David Torns frightening guitar sounds, and the album makes for some pretty awesome listening ! Tragically, like UK/UK, few people seem to have heard the album. I should just add that Q magazine sees things somewhat differently, and gave this album only a 1 star review (out of 5 !), saying something like "Torn seeks, but ultimately does not find" !! (Anybody out there fancy looking up the original quote ?) Another UK link : a new album called Polytown comes out on CMP on 1st May, featuring Torn, Mick Karn and ->Terry Bozzio<- ! Torn obviously likes talented drummers ... :) Anyways : if anybody out there wants an up-to-date Torn discography, drop me an email ! Cheers, Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Cole pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART) Subject: Re: Fripp in MOJO Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 03:04:00 GMT Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102 >From alt.music.progressive, quote is previously attributed to Fripp : From: NUMBERSIX at DELPHI dot COM To: ALL Subj: Re: Fripp in MOJO Date: 94/04/23 ================================================================ Stephen R Chadfield writes: >"These days I am more interested in what technology has to offer, > international communications networks like Internet which allow > subscribers to become a cell in the global brain. It offers > limitless opportunities." Interesting....... I had heard somewhere that Fripp and Eno were working togeter on some project regarding the "World Wide Web". Anyone know the details of this project? --- * UniQWK v2.0 * The Windows Mail Reader / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info at tigerteam dot org / [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART) Subject: NEW STEVE HOWE INTERVIE Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 16:58:00 GMT Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102 FOR DISCIPLINE (re: Bill Bruford) -- From: ALAFOSSE at MAC dot CC dot MACALSTR To: ALL Subj: NEW STEVE HOWE INTERVIEW Date: 94/04/21 ================================================================ Here are some excerpts from a recent Steve Howe interview in _Guitar Shop_ magazine, reprinted w/o permission. "...I'd rather play with Yehdi Menuhin right now than YES, to be honest. I don't want to go back to tarnished, commercial, corporate problems..." "I don't think _Union_ was a success. I think my track "Masquerade" was because it cost nothing to make -- I did it at my home away from all the arguments and politics -- and it got a Grammy nomination, which was pure justice to me. People spend $2 million making music that no one took notice of and I cut "Masquerade" in fifteen minutes at home on a two-channel Revox deck and lots of people liked it. And looking back, I think we should have carried on with ABWH and not gotten back together with YES. In the end, we had neither ABWH not YES and that's a tragedy to a lot of people. "I was very involved on the _YesYears_ album, but there are some things on there that I was very upset with and ones that I had no idea were on there. First, I think I'll cry if I hear "The Fish" on another compilation. Then "Soon" starts without my steel guitar solo, which I think is pathetic -- Jon just starts singing like he walked in the door. Then they stupidly used the edited-take of "America," which also angered many fans. And the worst thing is that they put in "And You And I" by the 90125 verson of YES and not the original, which I think is the travesty of the album. "Then again, I saw a picture the other day that almost made me cry. It was a photo of Jon, Chris and I singing onstage around 1971-72 and you could see that we were tight, harmonizing, and creating together. We were the artistic nucleus of YES, no matter whether we had Bill and Tony or Alan and Patrick. But I was upset because it reminded me of a time when we were all leading YES. Then, when you get people saying, "I'm YES," or "My song has got to be on the album," it all goes wrong. This pushing to be out in front and on top has nothing to do with what YES was once about. YES was all about that photo, with the three of us working together. And on top of that, we had the best keyboard player and the best drummer in the world. What we didn't need was the egotism where one member becomes more important than another." "...Asia has asked me to play on their next record and I might, provided here's not too much middle-of-the-road rock on there... "As for YES, Rick Wakeman, Bill Bruford, and myself are not in the band right now, which saddens a lot of people. I circulated an idea around to YES management that would have kept us all going, but they declined, so I gracefully bowed out. But we might come back as Bruford, Wakeman & Howe -- there's no reason why we shouldn't, although we have not made that decision yet." This interview appears to have been made prior to the release of _Talk_. It would be interesting to hear Howe's views on the album... --- * UniQWK v2.0 * The Windows Mail Reader / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info at tigerteam dot org / [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 18:12:18 -0800 From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold) Subject: Re: Definitive Editions On Discipline #131, the following heinous things were said by someone who probably didn't realize how deep in doo-doo he was stepping: > To see [Hammill's vocals on Exposure's Disengage] diluted the > way they were in Mr. Fripp's alternate choice was sad, indeed. I prefer the Definitive take; frankly I can't listen to the original, it was unnecessarily grating; a bad choice in the first place. > I prefer the originals. They have a life of their own. Then play the originals. I prefer the variety and the mutability of music, but I prefer the new take, and I am glad to have been able to experience both versions. Anyone interested in the original can hunt down the original LP recording at their favorite used record shop. > Witness the dubbing of Adrian Belew's comparatively lackluster > vocals in place of Gordon Haskell's on "Cadence and Cascade" A vast improvement in my opinion. I appreciate Gordon Haskell a million times better elsewhere such as on his recent CD "Hambledon Hill" (Voiceprint Records, 1992)--a fine piece of work. I never liked Gordon's voice on Cadence or Lizard, but that's not important. > And the abbreviated versions of "Starless" and "In the Court of > the Crimson King". To strip "Starless" of that [meandering] > section is, in essence, equivalent to a disregard for the life > that is intrinsic to that piece. Uh huh, and the liner notes say, buy the Definitive CDs for the full length versions. It's a compilation boxed set, not "the perfect sanctity of everything the band ever played." It didn't wreck these songs for me; I find the abbreviated versions listenable in the context of a compilation, although I do appreciate the originals, which *ARE* available separately in full length on Definitive CDs. > music, in its =originally released form=, carries with it the > interpretations and experiences of =countless= listeners > over time; Let's all live in the past and be vampires. Music is a very personal experience; nobody owns music. By playing it, the musician makes music more widely available; by listening to it we might experience music, but neither Robert nor the audience "own" it and we certainly can't demand to experience it exactly the same way every time we hear it. With that argument, why go to concerts? Only to demand the musician play it exactly as on record? How selfish. You should feel priveledged to have been able to hear all the music you claim has been heinously tarnished by Definitive remixes. At least it was available once in the form you enjoyed it in; most music doesn't acheive this lofty status. Music is free; it is experienced, as you say, beyond the borders of the vinyl/oxides/aluminum. Break free from the notches on your CD and let music really live on its own terms. > If a musician chooses to share his creations with the masses, > that musician must accept the audience's contribution to those > creations as being a part of each creation's character. The musician doesn't have to do a damn thing except play music; what you do at your end is your own responsibility, and you're not taking it. The musician is lucky to be given a chance to share music with an audience; at this point he may develop a relationship with you through music, but you certainly aren't exhibiting any semblance of responsibility for that relationship. > In short, the music, once shared with the masses, has the > possibility of gaining a lifeforce that far exceeds that > lifeforce intrinsic to its creation. As such, the music begins > to transcend "ownership" by its creator Suddenly we the listeners have the right to say how it should be heard, or at least, the majority rules? The majority doesn't rule here, each individual experiences music uniquely. Robert, and certainly no musician worth more than spit, would claim "ownership" of music, or claim to "create" music, except as far as our Capitalist culture requires it. Robert, and many other musicians of his ilk, believe that music flows through the musician, and the musician is merely a conduit. Nobody owns music, but a musician has to make a living, so what comes through the musician is copyrighted and sold in the marketplace. I think it's meaningless to place such heavy weight on recorded music. Music is a part of a grand pattern that changes over time; to deprive it of that time element in a recording is bad enough. To stuff the genie entirely in the bottle by saying there's only one Definitive version is ridiculous. > I deserve to have my cake =and= eat it! I hope you don't go hungry. - Brian ---------------- Brian Arnold arnold at lumina dot com Director of Software Development Lumina Decision Systems, Inc. WWW://rahul.net/pub/lumina/www/Lumina.html ---------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: bworkman at aol dot com Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 21:35:39 EDT Subject: Islands Cover CLIVE at UK dot MDIS dot COM wrote: >Oliver B. Warzecha (obw at ux2 dot chemie dot uni-dortmund dot de) wrote: >: Brett Strausser (strauss at osi dot ncsl dot nist dot gov) wrote: >: : I have a copy of the LP and the tuning is on it. It is a copy with the >: : original cover painted by Sinfield (looks like hell). >: Painted cover?? What does it look like? Never heard of that before. >Indeed. The original cover, and the only one I've ever seen, is an >astronomical photograph (Triffid Nebula in Sagittarius if memory serves). No, no, it's true. My old, original LP has the watercolor painting by Sinfield. I think it's supposed to be an arial view of some islands. The album is a gatefold design with three (one on the front, two on the back) colorful islands on an all white (or offwhite-I can't tell if the original color was ivory or my album has discolored with age) background. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "looks like hell" though. I think it's kind of att ractive. If anyone is really interested, it is a US release c1972 Atlantic SD7212. I have seen the "nebulae" cover too. I don't know the story behind the two covers though. I have not seen Islands on CD so I don't know which cover is on the CD version. I assume from the discussion that it is the nebulae version. (The tuning is on my LP as well) PS in regards to David Altemir's "two drummer" discussion, don't forget about Yes on their Union tour. Bill Bruford and Alan White drummed together for most of the show. Bill played an all electronic drum kit while Alan played a conventional kit. It made for some very interesting interplay! Brian Workman [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART) Subject: First Crimson, 3oaPP, U Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 04:17:00 GMT Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102 Regarding 2 drummers: Not only have the Grateful Dead used two drummers (and NOT just to employ both people - they do have two different functions), but also the Allman Brothers and Genesis. In fact, one of my favorite Bruford tracks is Genesis' "The Cinema Show" on the album Seconds Out, where Bruford and Phil Collins play drums together. Most amusing, however, was that, in the same issue of Discipline came the news of two drummers, neither of which was Bruford, AND an "announcement" that Bruford was in King Crimson! I doubt anyone has ever had THREE drummers. Has Fripp finally gone mad :-) ? MAYBE --- Fripp figured out that if there were THREE drummers, there would ALWAYS be at least ONE keeping time for him :-) ! -------------- Regarding changing songs for the reissues: Why didn't Fripp just put the original tracks on the end of the CDs as Bonus Tracks? Lots of CDs nowadays have several versions of a song - including Bowie's most recent (recommended, btw). -------------- Someone wrote: >The BBC session was Crimsons first trip into the studio, where they >recorded the following tracks for John Peels "Top Gear Show":- > >Epitaph - I Talk To The Wind - In The Court Of The Crimson King - Get >Thy Bearings & 21st Century Schizoid Man. >(I may be a little out on the above as its well over 10 years since I last >heard the session) > >The session was recorded on May 6th 1969, and broadcast 5 days >later. It precedes Crimsons recording of the first album by two months. I was a teen in L.A. at the time, and this was the heyday of "pirate radio", and so the rock deejays of the time at legitimate stations still had some of the same attitude. So, a big deal was made of these tapes of this incredible new upcoming album that would revolutionize rock, etc. etc. And so they played what were undoutedly tapes of the BBC John Peel broadcast. I, in turn, taped those broadcasts, the little reels might still be in a moldy drawer at my parents' house. Ironically, the deejays were right about the impact of In the Court on rock music, but no one ever noticed the change later - you never hear any mention of this album in mainstream discussions of the most influential albums of the time. PS When Lake left to form ELP the next year, there was a similar brouhaha, and in fact some sort of tapes of the first ELP were played on the radio a long time before the album release. Nowadays, you are lucky to hear one song a week before the album release. The last album to be played on the radio weeks before its release was Tales from Topographic Oceans. -------------- Regarding the posts about 3 of a Perfect Pair, and how the tracks are not right and do I have the best version, etc. etc. Think about the name. Fripp mentioned in an interview that the title was intentional. So, forget it and just listen to "Discipline" and "Beat". --------------- I listened to "UK" and "Danger Money" AGAIN and I still don't understand why anyone bothers. I have both (=all?) Jobson solo albums, and I think he is at best a mediocre session musician, certainly not anyone with anything musically to say. I can't blame Fripp for pulling out of UK. Previous posts have explored how Wetton couldn't understand Holdsworth's songs - even though those songs on UK are just retreads of early 70's fusion material (which are perhaps not in the collections of UK fans?). And, in an interview in the studio recording Asia, Wetton completely puts down progressive rock, claims no song should be over 3 minutes, wonders why he was ever involved in prog bands, etc. etc. (I still have this on tape). Note that Bruford was on Discipline, but Wetton wasn't. Yes, he does have a good voice, though. And, to my ear, Bruford's drumming on UK is easily his least inspired of any his recordings. I give UK - 3 out of 10 and Danger Money - 1 out of 10. (And don my asbestos suit :-) ). Cheers, Ken Ken dot Stuart at tigerteam dot org --- * UniQWK v2.0 * The Solution for Multilingual Messages / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info at tigerteam dot org / [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 10:51:17 -0700 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E & Torn regarding Exposure: > From: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com (Greg Aranda) > > > TT> Actually, i replaced my Exposure LP with a CD recently and "Disengage" > TT> has been thoroughly shot to hell. Weak, weak, weak. ... > I couldn't agree more! Peter Hammill's vocals on the original > release of "Disengage" were incredible -- biting, expressive. To > see them diluted the way they were in Mr. Fripp's alternate choice > was sad, indeed. > > It's a difficult call, whether to re-release the original expression > or release a new interpretation. There's a peculiar irony to that last comment. See, the versions of the tracks with Daryl Hall *are* the originals, and Fripp had to re-work them becase of legal problems so that the versions on the original release were actually the re-worked copies of the songs. So rather than Hall diluting the original it appears that Hammill added something to an otherwise weak track? I also happen to prefer the Hammill vocals. In a synchronistic alternate Exposure post, "timothy david hufnagle" hits on the the same subject from a different angle: > My favorite artist(s) are Daryl Hall and John Oates. Daryl Hall worked > with Robert Fripp as I'm sure you already know. Robert Fripp originally > played guitar and produced Daryl's first solo LP in 1980 called "Sacred > Songs" on the RCA record label. In return Daryl did some writing and > singing on Fripp's LP "Exposure". Now it is understood among fans of H&O > that there is supposedly a test pressing of "Exposure" with only Daryl > singing all of the lead vocals. Is this true? How could I find a copy of > it, being that it is so rare and hardly anyone knows about it? Perhaps the "Definitive Edition" that swaps back the Hall versions of some tracks is what Timothy is looking for? I wouldn't doubt that there was an earlier boot or test pressing of the material, but it seems that Fripp restored Exposure to his original version when he remastered it, so it presumably would be close to or the same as the test pressing before Hall was removed. A good point for the FAQ to address would be the exact differences between the versions of Exposure. I think the 1980 date above is a little off - my recollection of the story (which is I think outlined in some older digests too) is that Fripp originally produced lps by Gabriel, Hall and himself, envisioned as a trilogy of sorts (anyone else notice Fripp's fetish for threesomes?) but at the last moment Hall's label was not thrilled at his involvment in Fripp's Exposure for some reason and they refused to let it all be used, causing Exposure to be delayed and re-worked. I'd hate to think that Hammill's role in "Disengage" only came about because they had to peel Hall off the track but it appears that this is the case. Hall's "Sacred Songs" was released in 1977. Exposure got delayed until 1979. Although I was never very fond of Daryl Hall the "Sacred Songs" lp is worth a listen for Fripp fans as it is full or Fripp and Frippertronics and also contains a track (NYC?) that is essentially a variation on a track on Exposure. BTW, Fripp helps out on a Hall & Oates lp too, but not as notably as on "Sacred Songs". I think adding the "original" or alternate "original" tracks as bonus tracks would have been the right way to approach ressurecting the original version of Exposure. Maybe if Robert is listening he can offer us a CD5 with the tracks excorcised from the re-Definitive Edition. RE: David Torn > From: allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com > > 5) Finally, would anyone care to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) > re: David Torn/Mark Isham/Tony Levin/Bill Bruford album "Cloud About > Mercury"? If this territory has been covered, forgive me, I'm new > here... I'll admit that what initially drew my attention to "Cloud About Mercury" was the involvement of Levin and Bruford, figuring that with half of Crimson on there it couldn't be more than half bad. :^) It took a little while to grow on me. I wouldn't describe it as sounding much like KC. Torn's guitar shifts from ambient waves to wailing snarls or rhythmic swirls. The music is all instrumental (unlike Torn's follow-up, Door X, which I think suffers a bit from the vocals) and overall it's a wonderful musical journey that lives up to the mystery invoked by the title. Actually, Levin was second choice for this recording. Torn originally wanted Mick Karn, fretless bassist from Japan and Dali's Car, but Karn was on tour and unable to make the recording sessions. The support tour for "Cloud..." found Karn on bass instead of Levin. I found myself much more engaged by the live renditions of the music and in retrospect find the studio recordings sound a bit sterile to me compared to the live experience. Which is perhaps not unexpected when you compare a live performance to the studio improvisations the live set was drawn from. But Karn's fluid fretless also made the music mutate a bit. Karn and Torn have worked together a bit since then, as members of the band Lonely Universe, and appearing on recent (or future) solo works by each other. - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: pvallado at sdcc5 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Re: Discipline #131 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 2:54:31 PDT > On another note, I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the "down your nose" > look that many of you give the Belew/Levin/Bruford/Fripp version of KC. I certainly wasn't one of those critics. It was this lineup of Crimson that attracted me to the band in the first place. > I always asked myself if there was any other Bands that did similar things > as KC? a band that try to copy or just inovate in the way of KC. If not, too > bad! There are plenty of innovative acts around. You just have to look for them, that's all. A recent find for me was Dr.Nerve, a band led by guitarist/computer music researcher Nick Didkovsky. He implemented musical algorithms designed by composer Iannis Xenakis using HMSL (a programming language for computer music) and uses the musical scores generated by the computer as source material for Dr.Nerve music. The result is music that is fast, furious, and humourous that will appeal to both Zappa fans and Crimson fans (has that angry dissonant quality to it). Of related interest is a CD called _The Nerve Events Project_. You see, at the end of Dr.Nerve's _Beta 14 OK_ album is 44 tracks of 1-2 second "slices" of Dr. Nerve music (called Nerve Events). The liner notes invite the listener to act as an active composer by combining the Nerve Events in any order he or she wishes. For _The Nerve Events Project_, Didkovsky invited other composers to submit work using the Nerve Events. One of the contributors used a recording of assembled Nerve Events to excite a metal sculpture. Others performed digital signal processing tricks on them. The pieces on this CD range from outrageously outlandish to surprisingly beautiful in nature. Anyway, Dr.Nerve's work can be ordered from Wayside. Its amazing how this band can perform such complicated lines at impossible tempos. Nick Didkovsky is a fantastic guitarist; he mostly just plays the near-impossible lines the computer has generated for him to play but when he does take a solo, he reminds me of Fripp; not so much in playing style as in angry intensity and virtuoso chops. > From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 21:52:03 EDT > Subject: HOT CRIMSON NEWS! > > and the newest member... > > Pat Mastalotto - Drums > > Mastalotto played on the Sylvian/Fripp tour, as well as on Trey Gunn's > last solo release (1,000 years). He's also a founding member of > Mr. Mister (everyone's allowed one major blemish on their musical > resume right?). Mr.Mister was a very very good pop band. Their last album _Go On_ was an artistic breakthrough for them; there they had expanded their horizons beyond those evident on their first two albums; from the gospel-tinged "Healing Waters" and "Man of a Thousand Dances" (backed by a choir on both) to the avant-weirdness on one track (apparently about watching TV) with Steve George's Zawinul-esque backwards keyboard solo and Steve Farris's Frippian demented guitar solo. If they had stayed together long enough, they would have become a very good progressive band; all the members, including Mr. Mastelotto, had the chops for it. Mr. Mister doesn't deserve a bad rap just because their first album was so awful (_I Wear The Face_). > This is gonna be a monster of a KC line-up. Think about the potential > of this group, particularly live... two drummers? two guitarists? > two stick players?!?!??! Don't forget the two guitar players both augment their sonic arsenals with sophisticated MIDI-driven synthesizers and effects processing equipment to achieve a breathtaking panorama of sonic possibilities beyond the typical guitar sound. Also, the other band members are also likely to be similarly equipped with electronic equipment. The range of sounds KC was able to achieve in 1984 was amazing considering the state of technology at the time; imagine what they could do with the technology of 1993... Of course I would be interested in those sort of things, considering my .sig below ;-) -- Paolo Valladolid pvallado at sdcc5 dot ucsd dot edu ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet newsletter |\ |dedicated to the discussion of music technology as applied to | | |guitar and other stringed intruments. To subscribe, send email | | ----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 08:03:28 +0100 From: "Steve Moore" Subject: Fripp interview Attached is the text of the RF interview in the MAY '94 issue of Mojo... Reproduced without permission -------- Robert Fripp's bitter tussle with EG Music, the management company he helped establish in 1969, has distracted him from music for the best part of three years. Much of that time must have been spent penning what have become known in the music industry as 'The Fripp Letters' - hundreds of acerbic missives to EG executives comprising a dizzying mixture of venomous abuse, abstruse legal argument and bitter wit, copies of which were also dispatched to record company executives, journalists and interested musicians (Andy MacKay, Greg Lake, Vernon Reid and Darryl Hall amongst others). But with a settlement expected fairly soon, he's back at work... Mojo : Why did you launch yourself so wholeheartedly into the EG battle? RF : The dispute is about EG selling the catalogue to Virgin and the publishing company to EMI. I felt a deep sense of personal violation. EG was set up as a partnership between artists and managers, and to see the power and quality of that relationship violated so thoroughly left no alternative. I also acted on behalf of the 20-odd ex-members of King Crimson because, in the '90s, if we can't act wihout co-operation, there is no hope. I'm not a pacifist, but I am pacific. Mojo : It must have been draining on all fronts. How has it affected your music? RF : It's ironic, but I've returned to it more strongly than ever. I'm mixing the Fripp & Sylvian live album at the moment. I'm halfway through the new one with Eno. There's an album with The Orb on the ffrr label out soon. I'm playing live on (BBC) Radio 1 with The Future Sound of London in May and there are some remixes of The Grid coming out soon. Mojo : Plus the return of King Crimson. In 1974 you said 'King Crimson is over for ever and ever'. But you revived them in 1981. And again now... RF : King Crimson has a life of its own. It is a creative identity quite apart from the musicians who comprise it. I've even met it. In March 1981 I was driving to rehearsals for my band Discipline and I became aware of a presence on my left in the car. It was King Crimson, the creative force. I got to rehearsals and the band was reborn. We weren't Discipline anymore, we were King Crimson. In 1994 the music has different shapes and colours but King Crimson is back again, allowing us to do things musically we could not otherwise achieve. There'll be a mini-album just for Japan this year and a fully-fledged Crimson album next year. Mojo : What are your memories of supporting the Stones at the '69 Hyde Park concert... RF : It was only our seventh gig. It was great. At that time there seemed to be a world of hope and possibility in which musicians and audiences were in control to effect change. These days, I'm more interested in what technology has to offer, international communications networks like Internet which allows subscribers to become a cell in the global brain. It offers limitless opportunities. It's the future that interests me, not the past. ------- END ---------------------------------[Steve Moore]--------------------------------- Oramail : smoore.uk | Internet : smoore at uk dot oracle dot com | 'Questions are a burden to others skmoore at cix dot compulink dot co dot uk | Answers, a prison for oneself' Phone : (0344) 383722 | --------------------------------------o0o--------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: aaronson at aol dot com Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:58:02 EDT Subject: Bearsville I am dying to find a complete Tony Levin discography. Anyone with details, please e mail. I also have a feeling that Crimson's new sessions are being recorded in or around Tony Levin's home in Bearsville/Woodstock/Ashokan. If this is true, maybe someone in the area (I'm about 1.5 hours away) could keep their eyes open for a small gig in local bars... Adam Aronson Sr. Consulting System Engineer TransNet Corp., NJ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 10:06:26 -0700 From: relph at presto dot ig dot com (John Relph) Subject: New Fripp/Sylvian bootappendage FYI, I just received a catalog listing a new bootleg of "FRIPP/SYLVIAN", called _Kings Second Chapter '92_. No further information but keep your eyes peeled. Please send me any information you are able to find, I'll update the Fripp discography. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:46:46 -0600 From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man) Subject: New KC Drummers So it took two drummers to replace Bill...... --lizard man [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:18:18 BST From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk Subject: The mystery busker I have (at least!) one question for now: late last year, I was shopping in Oxford's Cornmarket, when I came across a busker who was playing and advertising the Chapman Stick (there was a board next to him with some of the history of the Stick on it; no I can't remember any of it, alas). He was playing a laid-back jazz piece, but with a full multi-voice arrangement - lovely! It was great to see one being played up close. However, I didn't recognise the player (nor did I interrupt to ask questions!) Some time later, when The Last Day came out, I realised that the photo of Trey Gunn looked not unlike the guy I saw in Oxford. I don't suppose anyone knows whether it *was* Trey Gunn? Alternatively, maybe you know it couldn't have been him because he was elsewhere (can't recall which month, but it was sunny which must narrow it down a lot:-) Or maybe you could tell me who it was? Some other immediate comments on topics in #131 : I'm surprised to hear that Wetton likes to play the same thing every night, since the Wetton-Bruford era Crimson were supposed to thrive on improvisation. Of course, I could understand Holdsworth wanting to stretch the boundaries further (and Jobson wanting a rigid structure). Cheers, Brian ---- Brian Ritchie, Informatics Dept., DRAL, Chilton, DIDCOT, Oxon, UK [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 13:46:51 -0700 From: David A. Craig Subject: fripp/hendrix forwarded from hey-joe (jimi hendrix list): ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 01:40:31 -0400 (EDT) From: James John Hannigan Subject: Fripp on JIMI Anyone out there listen to King Crimson? I recently purchased a book on the formerly-defunct-but-now-reforming band's leader, Robert Fripp, who has some interesting things to say about Hendrix. The book says, "One name that pops up repeatedly (in Fripp interviews) is Jimi Hendrix, whom Fripp cites as an example of a pure embodiment of the spirit of music. The intensity of the musical current flowing through Hendrix is what killed him in the end, according to Fripp. Hendrix's guitar technique itself, however, 'was inefficient, and as an example, misled many young guitarists.'" Also, in comparison to himself, "One might have a very direct, very innate and natural sense of what music is, like Hendrix, or be like me, a guitar player who began music tone deaf and with no sense of rhythm, completely out of touch with it. For Hendrix the problem was how to refine his particular capacity for expressing what he knew. For me it's how to get in touch with something that I know is there but also I'm out of touch with." Thought this was interesting commentary- JIM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:25:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ajay S. Khanna " Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI Yes, I've always thought that was an excellent remark, and very much identifies the 'source' of the two player's work. Like Bill Bruford said, "you don't jam with Robert Fripp..." what could be more antithetical to Jimi's overflowing musicality? In Fripp's improvisations, you always get the sense of a building out of pre-formed blocks, certain tones and patterns reassembled into a coherent (but for me still fascinating) whole. With Jimi, you get much more of a free-jazz vibe...sure, Jimi worked within tonality and a certain rhythmic aesthetic, but his work overall is so free, in terms of the overall sound of his solo, as free to me as, say, Derek Bailey if you consider the whole sound. Take the little bitty guitar break on the studio "Fire" Sure it's a repeating motif, but the depth of the sound and the sheer fat texture of the guitar sound as it changes over the course of the break are just remarkable. That type of organic variation cannot be built out of 'blocks,' but is just the musicality of the player. I thought it excellent of Fripp to 'admit' to being an 'intellectual' type player which is usually castigated in our still-romantically 'inspiration' prejudiced musical public. Ajay Khanna Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 21:50:20 -0400 (EDT) From: James John Hannigan Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI On Mon, 25 Apr 1994, Ajay S. Khanna wrote: > Yes, I've always thought that was an excellent remark, and very much > identifies the 'source' of the two player's work. Like Bill Bruford > said, "you don't jam with Robert Fripp..." what could be more > antithetical to Jimi's overflowing musicality? In Fripp's > improvisations, you always get the sense of a building out of pre-formed > blocks, certain tones and patterns reassembled into a coherent (but for > me still fascinating) whole. With Jimi, you get much more of a free-jazz Have you heard the "Great Deceiver" box set? Awesome stuff. There's lots of "improv" like you talk about, but still with the feeling of spontaneity. > That type of organic variation cannot be built out of 'blocks,' but is > just the musicality of the player. I thought it excellent of Fripp to > 'admit' to being an 'intellectual' type player which is usually > castigated in our still-romantically 'inspiration' prejudiced musical public. > > Ajay Khanna And think of the possibilities if Jimi had lived and had gotten official guitar "training", like he supposedly was interested in. It would have made the best guitarist even better. JIM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 22:28:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ajay S. Khanna " Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI Absolute agreement here on "The Great Deceiver" and don't get me wrong- I love Fripp. The thing is that even during his improvs, he maintains that same tightly compressed, amazing tone that he gets with that mega-sustain. He seems to use this control as a reference point for departure- like at points in his improvs where that nasal, tight tone takes on some feedback or gets 'dirty' he bends it into another dissonant note in a double-stop...Jimi seems to draw from absolute freedom, his guitar sound and exploration derived from the combination of Jimi and guitar, like the music is playing itself...with Fripp I get a very clear impression of Fripp on his stool, whereas with Jimi I get this wild sense of exhilaration from the chaos/order relation of Jimi and his guitar, much more like I'm listening to something of a force of nature rather than a man! That's probably just because I'm so incredibly partial to Jimi's mastery. But I definitly love Fripp too and it made my musical year when GD came out (finally) I think it's the best KC there is pre-80's. But, sadly, agreement too on what we missed out on w/ Jimi's death...I definitely think, from very limited reading, that he was dissatisfied with what he was doing and wanted to move in new directions- and that almost always signals impending great art- the artist works through the established form to the point of dissatisfaction and then creates something truly magnificent...like, as I've said here before, Coltrane...but, fortunately, we get peeks into the artistic beyond even on the poppiest, most rock-formalistic Jimi tracks. Ajay Khanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 13:24:08 -0400 (EDT) From: James John Hannigan Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI On Mon, 25 Apr 1994, Ajay S. Khanna wrote: > > Absolute agreement here on "The Great Deceiver" and don't get me wrong- I > love Fripp. The thing is that even during his improvs, he maintains that > same tightly compressed, amazing tone that he gets with that > mega-sustain. He seems to use this control as a reference point for > departure- like at points in his improvs where that nasal, tight tone > takes on some feedback or gets 'dirty' he bends it into another dissonant > note in a double-stop...Jimi seems to draw from absolute freedom, his > guitar sound and exploration derived from the combination of Jimi and > guitar, like the music is playing itself...with Fripp I get a very clear > impression of Fripp on his stool, whereas with Jimi I get this wild sense > of exhilaration from the chaos/order relation of Jimi and his guitar, > much more like I'm listening to something of a force of nature rather That seems to be main dichotomy- natural ability and spontaneity on the one hand, and intense intellectual training and a more mental approach to music on the other. Of course, that's simplistic- Fripp has natural ability too, and Jimi had his "training" on the chitlin circuit. But still, the theory works. Can you picture Fripp playing behind his back or flailing around on stage? Two different brilliant styles. I think Fripp's approach is comparable to Zappa. However, in the GD booklet Fripp talks about the improv stuff as being similar to what you're talking about with Jimi, where whatever happens happens, and the music is on the edge of either success or flaming disaster. I don't think anything can compare to the risks Jimi would take though. > than a man! That's probably just because I'm so incredibly partial to > Jimi's mastery. But I definitly love Fripp too and it made my musical > year when GD came out (finally) I think it's the best KC there is pre-80's. > Definitely. That band is one of the best I've ever heard. > But, sadly, agreement too on what we missed out on w/ Jimi's death...I > definitely think, from very limited reading, that he was dissatisfied > with what he was doing and wanted to move in new directions- and that > almost always signals impending great art- the artist works through the > established form to the point of dissatisfaction and then creates > something truly magnificent...like, as I've said here before, > Coltrane...but, fortunately, we get peeks into the artistic beyond even > on the poppiest, most rock-formalistic Jimi tracks. > > Ajay Khanna > Yup. Oh what could have been. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.