Discipline #133 (as text)

28 April 1994



Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 11:03:44 BST
From: Toby Howard <toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk>
Subject: archive now up to date
Following a period of disk space problems at our archive site, ftp.uwp.edu,
which are now fixed, I've uploaded the missing archives(115 to 132) so we
should be up to date now. The archives are in /pub/music/lists/discipline.

Toby

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 13:22:17 PST
From: "grant green" <grant_green at cc dot chiron dot com>
Subject: The Robert Fripp String Quintet
     I just happened across a fantastic CD:  "The Bridge Between" by the
     Robert Fripp String Quintet.  The quintet is RF, Trey Gunn, and the
     California Guitar Trio.  Tracks are:     Kan-Non Power
     Yamanashi Blues
     Hope
     Chromatic Fantasy
     Contrapunctus
     Bicycling to Afganistan
     Blue
     Blockhead
     Passacaglia
     Threnody for Souls in Torment

     RF is credited with guitar and Frippertronics, TG with Grand Stick,
     and the CGT with acoustic guitars.  The pieces range from crafty
     guitar work to frippertronic electronic excursions.

     Just what I needed to tide me over until the next KC release!

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:37:22 -0500
From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash)
Subject: two of a perfect pair
Was I the only one to smile when reading that a second drummer had been
added to the new KC?  Of course -- you need two "normal" drummers to
replace a Bill Bruford!  Then again, if you believe all rumors, then there
are now three drummers in Crimso....  heh.

Seriously, I think there is the possibility for some great music to come
out of the new KC.  My comment above notwithstanding, the two drummers will
make for some interesting rhythms.  Note that we're moving away from the
"stripped down" sparseness of 1980's Crimso.  Change is good.  I liked what
they did with "Waiting Man" and "Satori in Tangiers" live with two
drummers.  A jumping-off point for some possibilities.  With doubled drums,
bass, and guitar, this group will have to be very tight musically to avoid
stepping on each other and saturating the aural spectrum.  King Crimson, of
course, is just the band to do such a thing.

I don't believe Bruford would be very comfortable playing with another
drummer in a group.  He's _toured_ with three different drummers --
Collins, White, and Belew, but during the creative process I don't think it
would work well.  Maybe with Belew on the kit.  BB seems to know what he
wants to play and hear, and clashed somewhat with RF's rhythmic ideas on
occasion.  In my opinion, Earthworks is where BB belongs, at least for now.
He's with musicians that have the same "blowing" mentality, and the ideas
are flowing.  I can't wait for the live album to finally come out.

-===-John R. Nash-==-nash at chem dot wisc dot edu-==-UW-Madison Chem. Dept-===-

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 22:36:57 EDT
From: starmer at isnet dot is dot wfu dot edu (John Starmer)
Subject: The Original Cover Art for Islands
In the previous newsletter KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org wrote

Oliver B. Warzecha (obw at ux2 dot chemie dot uni-dortmund dot de) wrote:
: Brett Strausser (strauss at osi dot ncsl dot nist dot gov) wrote:
: : I have a copy of the LP and the tuning is on it.  It is a copy with the
: : original cover painted by Sinfield (looks like hell).

: Painted cover?? What does it look like? Never heard of that before.

Indeed. The original cover, and the only one I've ever seen, is an
astronomical photograph (Triffid Nebula in Sagittarius if memory serves).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As far as I know, the original release of Islands was released in the US as
Atlantic SD 7212 and the cover art was infact by Peter Sinfield.  I've got
the album sitting in front of me and the art consists of a small tie-dyed
island on the front and two similar islands on the back.  It was released
in 1972 and I am not sure when or why the cover was changed to the
"astronomical photograph".  On the inside of the cover are the lyrics/band
information one one side and an "island" which is a collage of concert
photographs of the band members.

starmer at isnet dot is dot wfu dot edu (Jack Starmer)

Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 12:00:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Scott T. Lillis" <sl4q+ at andrew dot cmu dot edu>
Subject: Re: Various posts
Greg Aranda wrote:
>To strip "Starless" of that section is, in essence, equivalent to a
>disregard for the life that is intrinsic to that piece.  It is, I am
>sad to say, an unnecessary surgery that renders the piece crippled;
>bereft of a lifeforce .....

I agree that the instumental build up is an integral part of the song,
but I think the vocal section is a very moving piece in and of itself.
I actually use this in making mixes for non-Crimson listeners that I
wish to 'go easy on'.   Some people can't handle the more twisted
aspects of Crimson like that instrumental build up(or Fracture or
Indiscipline...).   Needless to say, that intesity is what I love about
this music, it makes it very,well, Crimson.  I think that should be a
general adjective for music.  I use it all the time.

David Altemir wrote:
>Anyway, I hope that KC can utilize the 2 drummers much the same way as
>the 2 guitarists were used to create mosaics in the previous KC
>reincarnation.

Wow, Imagine overlapping two drum tracks in different time signitures as
was done with the guitars on Discipline and Frame by Frame.   That could
be pretty f*cking cool.  Especially if the guitars were overlapped in
the same manner and at the same time.  That could also get a little out
of hand, but imagine the possibilities...

>Am I the only one that thought the ex-Policeman could
>have been a candidate for a reincarnation of King Crimson?

I dunno.  I wasn't too impressed with Bewitched or whatever that project
 was that they did.  I like the Police, but they seem a bit far removed

>from Crimson, IMHO.

Jim Hannigan wrote:

>Someone in the previous issue mentioned the changes made in remastering
>on The Mincer, and I was hoping to get opinions on whether to get the CD 
>or find a used album copy.

I'd buy the CD.  The change isn't enough to loose an sleep over.  I
suggest you search out the live recording from Amsterdam with the WHOLE
Mincer improv(without vocals of course).   Fracture just sounds amazing
on CD though.  Go buy it now!

>With all the talk about Sleepless and so on, I'd like to be careful.

Well those changes a more akin to remixes so common with Techno and
Dance Music(like Skinny Puppy and such bands).   I must say that is what
I dislike most about Sleepless.  I have a version with more interesting
drums on it though.  It is usually pretty good live too.  I think Fripp
was less able to restrain Bruford in concert.  Though I can just imagine
a little shocking device that gives Bruford a little jolt when he starts
playing off-beat rhythms(sorry for the silly digression, I couldn't
resist)

JP Mohan commented on Exposure:

>I was pleasantly surprised to find many "big names" among the contributing
>musicians, such as Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Jerry Marotta,
>Barry Andrews...

Yeah and Micheal Walden played on there too.  He's not very popular but
he's well known among MahaVishnu John McGlaughlin fans.  He is a very
talented drummer.  Check out Visions of the Emerald Beyond it is
supperb.  BTW, Fripp mention in the Great Deceiver book that they played
a show with the Mahavishnu Orchestra.   Does any one have that show(or
and McGlaughlin shows actually)? Oh, to hear my two favorite guitarists
in the same show...

> BTW, I'm really glad to see that Discipline does not restrict itself
>to Crimson alone, I hope it stays open to all ideas, thoughts, and
>opinions.

Yes,  but eventually all things must come back to Crimson ;-)
Sorry for the massive post , but it has been a while.

Scott Lillis

From: sanderso at gac dot edu (Scott T Anderson)
Subject: Two drummers in King Crimson--explanations?
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 15:57:47 (CDT)
What is this talk about two drummers now?  I have inferred that the other
drummer (other than Marotta, that is) will be Bruford.  Firstly, I doubt
that this is the case, as Bruford and Fripp don't seem to get along too
well anymore.  However, IF Bruford (or anyone else) is added, that's great.

I will interrupt myself now, because I think I remember that the talk of
the second drummer was referring to Belew playing drums on some stuff.  If
THAT'S what's going on, that's great too.

Why am I in support of this?  King Crimson has had dual drummers twice--on
Larks' Tongues (Muir played "allsorts" of percussion, including drum kit
with Bruford on Larks' Part Two) and in the '80s, when Belew and Bruford
doubled-up (like on "Satori (Sartori?) in Tangier").

Regardless of the lineup, I WANT MY NEW KING CRIMSON!

Scott T. Anderson
sanderso at nic dot gac dot edu

From: javasque at eos dot ncsu dot edu
Subject: Summers & KC
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 14:17:25 EDT
I agree with David when he says that it would have been really interesting
to have Andy Summers in the new KC. Also I was expecting David Sylvian to
give it a try... but probably his ego is to big to sail under the KC
banner.  David Torn would have been an interesting choice judging from
"Cloud About Mercury" and his work with Sylvian.  I wish these artists
would come up with something similar to "This Mortal Coil" or the Medium
concept, so to every now and then release 70+ minute CD's filled with
collaborations. Just an idea...

Anyway, can somebody out there comment on Elliott Sharp? What is his
music like, recommendations, blah, blah....

ciao, Jaime

Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 19:20:52 GMT
From: pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk (Peter Cole)
Subject: Discipline : David Torn (Cloud About Mercury)
> From: allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 18:26:27 PST
> Subject: Bruford, Holdsworth, Wyatt, Frippertronics
>
>      5) Finally, would anyone care to discuss the merits (or lack thereof)
>      re: David Torn/Mark Isham/Tony Levin/Bill Bruford album "Cloud About
>      Mercury"? If this territory has been covered, forgive me, I'm new
>      here...
>

Glad someone asked about this one !

IMHO 8) this is one of the *greatest* albums. Absolutely *burns*, totally
intense. I got the album in the first place 'cos I had heard Torn on a Jan
Garbarek album, where I was pretty knocked-out by Torn's totally weird
approach to the guitar, and also and because I'm a *long* term Bruford fan
!  I was hooked on the album from the very start, when Bruford's polyphonic
synth drums pulse in ... Actually, this album (for me) features Bruford's
best ever electronic drum playing. Add that to David Torns frightening
guitar sounds, and the album makes for some pretty awesome listening !

Tragically, like UK/UK, few people seem to have heard the album. I should
just add that Q magazine sees things somewhat differently, and gave this
album only a 1 star review (out of 5 !), saying something like "Torn seeks,
but ultimately does not find" !! (Anybody out there fancy looking up the
original quote ?)

Another UK link : a new album called Polytown comes out on CMP on 1st May,
featuring Torn, Mick Karn and ->Terry Bozzio<- ! Torn obviously likes
talented drummers ... :)

Anyways : if anybody out there wants an up-to-date Torn discography, drop me
an email !

Cheers,

Pete

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Cole

pcole at sseyod dot demon dot co dot uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART)
Subject: Re: Fripp in MOJO
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 03:04:00 GMT
Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102
>From alt.music.progressive, quote is previously attributed to Fripp :

 From: NUMBERSIX at DELPHI dot COM      To: ALL
 Subj: Re: Fripp in MOJO         Date: 94/04/23
================================================================

 Stephen R Chadfield <src at aquamarine dot swindon dot gpsemi dot com> writes:

>"These days I am more interested in what technology has to offer,
> international communications networks like Internet which allow
> subscribers to become a cell in the global brain. It offers
> limitless opportunities."

Interesting.......  I had heard somewhere that Fripp and Eno were working
togeter on some project regarding the "World Wide Web".  Anyone know the
details of this project?

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From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART)
Subject: NEW STEVE HOWE INTERVIE
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 16:58:00 GMT
Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102
FOR DISCIPLINE  (re: Bill Bruford) --

 From: ALAFOSSE at MAC dot CC dot MACALSTR  To: ALL
 Subj: NEW STEVE HOWE INTERVIEW  Date: 94/04/21
================================================================

Here are some excerpts from a recent Steve Howe interview in _Guitar Shop_
magazine, reprinted w/o permission.

"...I'd rather play with Yehdi Menuhin right now than YES, to be honest.  I
don't want to go back to tarnished, commercial, corporate problems..."

"I don't think _Union_ was a success.  I think my track "Masquerade" was
because it cost nothing to make -- I did it at my home away from all the
arguments and politics -- and it got a Grammy nomination, which was pure
justice to me.  People spend $2 million making music that no one took
notice of and I cut "Masquerade" in fifteen minutes at home on a
two-channel Revox deck and lots of people liked it.  And looking back, I
think we should have carried on with ABWH and not gotten back together with
YES.  In the end, we had neither ABWH not YES and that's a tragedy to a lot
of people.

"I was very involved on the _YesYears_ album, but there are some things on
there that I was very upset with and ones that I had no idea were on there.
First, I think I'll cry if I hear "The Fish" on another compilation.  Then
"Soon" starts without my steel guitar solo, which I think is pathetic --
Jon just starts singing like he walked in the door.  Then they stupidly
used the edited-take of "America," which also angered many fans.  And the
worst thing is that they put in "And You And I" by the 90125 verson of YES
and not the original, which I think is the travesty of the album.

"Then again, I saw a picture the other day that almost made me cry.  It was
a photo of Jon, Chris and I singing onstage around 1971-72 and you could
see that we were tight, harmonizing, and creating together.  We were the
artistic nucleus of YES, no matter whether we had Bill and Tony or Alan and
Patrick.  But I was upset because it reminded me of a time when we were all
leading YES.  Then, when you get people saying, "I'm YES," or "My song has
got to be on the album," it all goes wrong.  This pushing to be out in
front and on top has nothing to do with what YES was once about.  YES was
all about that photo, with the three of us working together.  And on top of
that, we had the best keyboard player and the best drummer in the world.
What we didn't need was the egotism where one member becomes more important
than another."

"...Asia has asked me to play on their next record and I might, provided
here's not too much middle-of-the-road rock on there...

"As for YES, Rick Wakeman, Bill Bruford, and myself are not in the band
right now, which saddens a lot of people.  I circulated an idea around to
YES management that would have kept us all going, but they declined, so I
gracefully bowed out.  But we might come back as Bruford, Wakeman & Howe --
there's no reason why we shouldn't, although we have not made that decision
yet."

This interview appears to have been made prior to the release of _Talk_.
It would be interesting to hear Howe's views on the album...

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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 18:12:18 -0800
From: arnold at lumina dot com (Brian Arnold)
Subject: Re: Definitive Editions
On Discipline #131, the following heinous things were said by someone who
probably didn't realize how deep in doo-doo he was stepping:

> To see [Hammill's vocals on Exposure's Disengage] diluted the
> way they were in Mr. Fripp's alternate choice was sad, indeed.

I prefer the Definitive take; frankly I can't listen to the original, it
was unnecessarily grating; a bad choice in the first place.

> I prefer the originals.  They have a life of their own.

Then play the originals.  I prefer the variety and the mutability of music,
but I prefer the new take, and I am glad to have been able to experience
both versions.  Anyone interested in the original can hunt down the
original LP recording at their favorite used record shop.

> Witness the dubbing of Adrian Belew's comparatively lackluster
> vocals in place of Gordon Haskell's on "Cadence and Cascade"

A vast improvement in my opinion.  I appreciate Gordon Haskell a million
times better elsewhere such as on his recent CD "Hambledon Hill"
(Voiceprint Records, 1992)--a fine piece of work.  I never liked Gordon's
voice on Cadence or Lizard, but that's not important.

> And the abbreviated versions of "Starless" and "In the Court of
> the Crimson King".  To strip "Starless" of that [meandering]
> section is, in essence, equivalent to a disregard for the life
> that is intrinsic to that piece.

Uh huh, and the liner notes say, buy the Definitive CDs for the full length
versions.  It's a compilation boxed set, not "the perfect sanctity of
everything the band ever played."  It didn't wreck these songs for me; I
find the abbreviated versions listenable in the context of a compilation,
although I do appreciate the originals, which *ARE* available separately in
full length on Definitive CDs.

> music, in its =originally released form=, carries with it the
> interpretations and experiences of =countless= listeners
> over time;

Let's all live in the past and be vampires.  Music is a very personal
experience; nobody owns music.  By playing it, the musician makes music
more widely available; by listening to it we might experience music, but
neither Robert nor the audience "own" it and we certainly can't demand to
experience it exactly the same way every time we hear it.  With that
argument, why go to concerts?  Only to demand the musician play it exactly
as on record?  How selfish.

You should feel priveledged to have been able to hear all the music you
claim has been heinously tarnished by Definitive remixes.  At least it was
available once in the form you enjoyed it in; most music doesn't acheive
this lofty status.

Music is free; it is experienced, as you say, beyond the borders of the
vinyl/oxides/aluminum.  Break free from the notches on your CD and let
music really live on its own terms.

> If a musician chooses to share his creations with the masses,
> that musician must accept the audience's contribution to those
> creations as being a part of each creation's character.

The musician doesn't have to do a damn thing except play music;
what you do at your end is your own responsibility, and you're not taking
it.  The musician is lucky to be given a chance to share music with an
audience; at this point he may develop a relationship with you through
music, but you certainly aren't exhibiting any semblance of responsibility
for that relationship.

> In short, the music, once shared with the masses, has the
> possibility of gaining a lifeforce that far exceeds that
> lifeforce intrinsic to its creation. As such, the music begins
> to transcend "ownership" by its creator

Suddenly we the listeners have the right to say how it should be heard, or
at least, the majority rules?  The majority doesn't rule here, each
individual experiences music uniquely.  Robert, and certainly no musician
worth more than spit, would claim "ownership" of music, or claim to
"create" music, except as far as our Capitalist culture requires it.
Robert, and many other musicians of his ilk, believe that music flows
through the musician, and the musician is merely a conduit.  Nobody owns
music, but a musician has to make a living, so what comes through the
musician is copyrighted and sold in the marketplace.

I think it's meaningless to place such heavy weight on recorded music.
Music is a part of a grand pattern that changes over time; to deprive it of
that time element in a recording is bad enough.  To stuff the genie
entirely in the bottle by saying there's only one Definitive version is
ridiculous.

> I deserve to have my cake =and= eat it!

I hope you don't go hungry.

- Brian

----------------
  Brian Arnold                     arnold at lumina dot com
  Director of Software Development
  Lumina Decision Systems, Inc.
  WWW://rahul.net/pub/lumina/www/Lumina.html
----------------

From: bworkman at aol dot com
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 21:35:39 EDT
Subject: Islands Cover
 CLIVE at UK dot MDIS dot COM wrote:
>Oliver B. Warzecha (obw at ux2 dot chemie dot uni-dortmund dot de) wrote:
>: Brett Strausser (strauss at osi dot ncsl dot nist dot gov) wrote:
>: : I have a copy of the LP and the tuning is on it.  It is a copy with the
>: : original cover painted by Sinfield (looks like hell).

>: Painted cover?? What does it look like? Never heard of that before.

>Indeed. The original cover, and the only one I've ever seen, is an
>astronomical photograph (Triffid Nebula in Sagittarius if memory serves).

No, no, it's true. My old, original LP has the watercolor painting by
Sinfield. I think it's supposed to be an arial view of some islands. The
album is a gatefold design with three (one on the front, two on the back)
colorful islands on an all white (or offwhite-I can't tell if the original
color was ivory or my album has discolored with age) background. I wouldn't
go so far as to say it "looks like hell" though. I think it's kind of att
ractive.

If anyone is really interested, it is a US release c1972 Atlantic SD7212. I
have seen the "nebulae" cover too. I don't know the story behind the two
covers though. I have not seen Islands on CD so I don't know which cover is
on the CD version. I assume from the discussion that it is the nebulae
version.

(The tuning is on my LP as well)

PS in regards to David Altemir's "two drummer" discussion, don't forget
about Yes on their Union tour. Bill Bruford and Alan White drummed together
for most of the show. Bill played an all electronic drum kit while Alan
played a conventional kit. It made for some very interesting interplay!

Brian Workman

From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART)
Subject: First Crimson, 3oaPP, U
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 04:17:00 GMT
Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102
Regarding 2 drummers:

Not only have the Grateful Dead used two drummers (and NOT just to employ
both people - they do have two different functions), but also the Allman
Brothers and Genesis.  In fact, one of my favorite Bruford tracks is
Genesis' "The Cinema Show" on the album Seconds Out, where Bruford and Phil
Collins play drums together.

Most amusing, however, was that, in the same issue of Discipline came the
news of two drummers, neither of which was Bruford, AND an "announcement"
that Bruford was in King Crimson!  I doubt anyone has ever had THREE
drummers.  Has Fripp finally gone mad :-) ?

MAYBE --- Fripp figured out that if there were THREE drummers, there would
ALWAYS be at least ONE keeping time for him :-) !

--------------

Regarding changing songs for the reissues:

Why didn't Fripp just put the original tracks on the end of the CDs as
Bonus Tracks?  Lots of CDs nowadays have several versions of a song -
including Bowie's most recent (recommended, btw).

--------------

Someone wrote:
>The BBC session was Crimsons first trip into the studio, where they
>recorded the following tracks for John Peels "Top Gear Show":-
>
>Epitaph - I Talk To The Wind - In The Court Of The Crimson King - Get
>Thy Bearings  & 21st Century Schizoid Man.
>(I may be a little out on the above as its well over 10 years since I last
>heard the session)
>
>The session was recorded on May 6th 1969, and broadcast 5 days
>later. It precedes Crimsons recording of the first album by two months.

I was a teen in L.A. at the time, and this was the heyday of "pirate
radio", and so the rock deejays of the time at legitimate stations still
had some of the same attitude.

So, a big deal was made of these tapes of this incredible new upcoming
album that would revolutionize rock, etc. etc.  And so they played what
were undoutedly tapes of the BBC John Peel broadcast.  I, in turn, taped
those broadcasts, the little reels might still be in a moldy drawer at my
parents' house.

Ironically, the deejays were right about the impact of In the Court on rock
music, but no one ever noticed the change later - you never hear any
mention of this album in mainstream discussions of the most influential
albums of the time.

PS When Lake left to form ELP the next year, there was a similar brouhaha,
and in fact some sort of tapes of the first ELP were played on the radio a
long time before the album release.  Nowadays, you are lucky to hear one
song a week before the album release.  The last album to be played on the
radio weeks before its release was Tales from Topographic Oceans.

--------------

Regarding the posts about 3 of a Perfect Pair, and how the tracks are not
right and do I have the best version, etc. etc.

Think about the name.  Fripp mentioned in an interview that the title was
intentional.

So, forget it and just listen to "Discipline" and "Beat".

---------------

I listened to "UK" and "Danger Money" AGAIN and I still don't understand
why anyone bothers.

I have both (=all?) Jobson solo albums, and I think he is at best a
mediocre session musician, certainly not anyone with anything musically
to say.  I can't blame Fripp for pulling out of UK.

Previous posts have explored how Wetton couldn't understand Holdsworth's
songs - even though those songs on UK are just retreads of early 70's
fusion material (which are perhaps not in the collections of UK fans?).
And, in an interview in the studio recording Asia, Wetton completely puts
down progressive rock, claims no song should be over 3 minutes, wonders why
he was ever involved in prog bands, etc. etc. (I still have this on tape).
Note that Bruford was on Discipline, but Wetton wasn't.  Yes, he does have
a good voice, though.

And, to my ear, Bruford's drumming on UK is easily his least inspired of
any his recordings.

I give UK - 3 out of 10 and Danger Money - 1 out of 10.

(And don my asbestos suit :-) ).

Cheers,

    Ken
    Ken dot Stuart at tigerteam dot org

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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 10:51:17 -0700
From: Malcolm Humes <malcolm at wrs dot com>
Subject: E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E  & Torn
regarding Exposure:

> From: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com (Greg Aranda)
>   >
> TT> Actually, i replaced my Exposure LP with a CD recently and "Disengage"
> TT> has been thoroughly shot to hell. Weak, weak, weak.
...
>     I couldn't agree more!  Peter Hammill's vocals on the original
>     release of "Disengage" were incredible -- biting, expressive.  To
>     see them diluted the way they were in Mr. Fripp's alternate choice
>     was sad, indeed.
>
>     It's a difficult call, whether to re-release the original expression
>     or release a new interpretation.

There's a peculiar irony to that last comment. See, the versions of the
tracks with Daryl Hall *are* the originals, and Fripp had to re-work them
becase of legal problems so that the versions on the original release were
actually the re-worked copies of the songs. So rather than Hall diluting
the original it appears that Hammill added something to an otherwise weak
track?

I also happen to prefer the Hammill vocals. In a synchronistic alternate
Exposure post, "timothy david hufnagle" hits on the the same subject from a
different angle:

> My favorite artist(s) are Daryl Hall and John Oates.  Daryl Hall worked
> with Robert Fripp as I'm sure you already know.  Robert Fripp originally
> played guitar and produced Daryl's first solo LP in 1980 called "Sacred
> Songs" on the RCA record label.  In return Daryl did some writing and
> singing on Fripp's LP "Exposure".  Now it is understood among fans of H&O
> that there is supposedly a test pressing of "Exposure" with only Daryl
> singing all of the lead vocals.  Is this true?  How could I find a copy of
> it, being that it is so rare and hardly anyone knows about it?

Perhaps the "Definitive Edition" that swaps back the Hall versions of some
tracks is what Timothy is looking for? I wouldn't doubt that there was an
earlier boot or test pressing of the material, but it seems that Fripp
restored Exposure to his original version when he remastered it, so it
presumably would be close to or the same as the test pressing before Hall
was removed. A good point for the FAQ to address would be the exact
differences between the versions of Exposure.

I think the 1980 date above is a little off - my recollection of the story
(which is I think outlined in some older digests too) is that Fripp
originally produced lps by Gabriel, Hall and himself, envisioned as a
trilogy of sorts (anyone else notice Fripp's fetish for threesomes?) but at
the last moment Hall's label was not thrilled at his involvment in Fripp's
Exposure for some reason and they refused to let it all be used, causing
Exposure to be delayed and re-worked. I'd hate to think that Hammill's role
in "Disengage" only came about because they had to peel Hall off the track
but it appears that this is the case. Hall's "Sacred Songs" was released in
1977. Exposure got delayed until 1979. Although I was never very fond of
Daryl Hall the "Sacred Songs" lp is worth a listen for Fripp fans as it is
full or Fripp and Frippertronics and also contains a track (NYC?)  that is
essentially a variation on a track on Exposure. BTW, Fripp helps out on a
Hall & Oates lp too, but not as notably as on "Sacred Songs".

I think adding the "original" or alternate "original" tracks as bonus
tracks would have been the right way to approach ressurecting the original
version of Exposure. Maybe if Robert is listening he can offer us a CD5
with the tracks excorcised from the re-Definitive Edition.

RE: David Torn

> From: allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com
>
>      5) Finally, would anyone care to discuss the merits (or lack thereof)
>      re: David Torn/Mark Isham/Tony Levin/Bill Bruford album "Cloud About
>      Mercury"? If this territory has been covered, forgive me, I'm new
>      here...

I'll admit that what initially drew my attention to "Cloud About Mercury"
was the involvement of Levin and Bruford, figuring that with half of
Crimson on there it couldn't be more than half bad. :^)

It took a little while to grow on me. I wouldn't describe it as sounding
much like KC. Torn's guitar shifts from ambient waves to wailing snarls or
rhythmic swirls. The music is all instrumental (unlike Torn's follow-up,
Door X, which I think suffers a bit from the vocals) and overall it's a
wonderful musical journey that lives up to the mystery invoked by the
title.

Actually, Levin was second choice for this recording. Torn originally
wanted Mick Karn, fretless bassist from Japan and Dali's Car, but Karn was
on tour and unable to make the recording sessions. The support tour for
"Cloud..." found Karn on bass instead of Levin. I found myself much more
engaged by the live renditions of the music and in retrospect find the
studio recordings sound a bit sterile to me compared to the live
experience. Which is perhaps not unexpected when you compare a live
performance to the studio improvisations the live set was drawn from.  But
Karn's fluid fretless also made the music mutate a bit. Karn and Torn have
worked together a bit since then, as members of the band Lonely Universe,
and appearing on recent (or future) solo works by each other.

 - Malcolm

From: pvallado at sdcc5 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid)
Subject: Re: Discipline #131
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 2:54:31 PDT
> On another note, I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the "down your nose"
> look that many of you give the Belew/Levin/Bruford/Fripp version of KC.

I certainly wasn't one of those critics. It was this lineup of Crimson that
attracted me to the band in the first place.

>     I always asked myself if there was any other Bands that did similar things
>   as KC? a band that try to copy or just inovate in the way of KC. If not, too
>   bad!

There are plenty of innovative acts around. You just have to look for them,
that's all. A recent find for me was Dr.Nerve, a band led by
guitarist/computer music researcher Nick Didkovsky. He implemented musical
algorithms designed by composer Iannis Xenakis using HMSL (a programming
language for computer music) and uses the musical scores generated by the
computer as source material for Dr.Nerve music. The result is music that is
fast, furious, and humourous that will appeal to both Zappa fans and
Crimson fans (has that angry dissonant quality to it). Of related interest
is a CD called _The Nerve Events Project_. You see, at the end of
Dr.Nerve's _Beta 14 OK_ album is 44 tracks of 1-2 second "slices" of
Dr. Nerve music (called Nerve Events). The liner notes invite the listener
to act as an active composer by combining the Nerve Events in any order he
or she wishes. For _The Nerve Events Project_, Didkovsky invited other
composers to submit work using the Nerve Events. One of the contributors
used a recording of assembled Nerve Events to excite a metal
sculpture. Others performed digital signal processing tricks on them. The
pieces on this CD range from outrageously outlandish to surprisingly
beautiful in nature.

Anyway, Dr.Nerve's work can be ordered from Wayside. Its amazing how this
band can perform such complicated lines at impossible tempos.  Nick
Didkovsky is a fantastic guitarist; he mostly just plays the
near-impossible lines the computer has generated for him to play but when
he does take a solo, he reminds me of Fripp; not so much in playing style
as in angry intensity and virtuoso chops.

> From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad)
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 21:52:03 EDT
> Subject: HOT CRIMSON NEWS!
>
> and the newest member...
>
> Pat Mastalotto - Drums
>
> Mastalotto played on the Sylvian/Fripp tour, as well as on Trey Gunn's
> last solo release (1,000 years). He's also a founding member of
> Mr. Mister (everyone's allowed one major blemish on their musical
> resume right?).

Mr.Mister was a very very good pop band. Their last album _Go On_ was an
artistic breakthrough for them; there they had expanded their horizons
beyond those evident on their first two albums; from the gospel-tinged
"Healing Waters" and "Man of a Thousand Dances" (backed by a choir on both)
to the avant-weirdness on one track (apparently about watching TV) with
Steve George's Zawinul-esque backwards keyboard solo and Steve Farris's
Frippian demented guitar solo. If they had stayed together long enough,
they would have become a very good progressive band; all the members,
including Mr.  Mastelotto, had the chops for it. Mr. Mister doesn't deserve
a bad rap just because their first album was so awful (_I Wear The Face_).

> This is gonna be a monster of a KC line-up. Think about the potential
> of this group, particularly live... two drummers? two guitarists?
> two stick players?!?!??!

Don't forget the two guitar players both augment their sonic arsenals with
sophisticated MIDI-driven synthesizers and effects processing equipment to
achieve a breathtaking panorama of sonic possibilities beyond the typical
guitar sound. Also, the other band members are also likely to be similarly
equipped with electronic equipment. The range of sounds KC was able to
achieve in 1984 was amazing considering the state of technology at the
time; imagine what they could do with the technology of 1993...

Of course I would be interested in those sort of things, considering
my .sig below ;-)
--
Paolo Valladolid
pvallado at sdcc5 dot ucsd dot edu

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 -----------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 08:03:28 +0100
From: "Steve Moore" <smoore at uk dot oracle dot com>
Subject: Fripp interview
Attached is the text of the RF interview in the MAY '94 issue of Mojo...
Reproduced without permission

--------

Robert Fripp's bitter tussle with EG Music, the management company he
helped establish in 1969, has distracted him from music for the best part
of three years. Much of that time must have been spent penning what have
become known in the music industry as 'The Fripp Letters' - hundreds of
acerbic missives to EG executives comprising a dizzying mixture of venomous
abuse, abstruse legal argument and bitter wit, copies of which were also
dispatched to record company executives, journalists and interested
musicians (Andy MacKay, Greg Lake, Vernon Reid and Darryl Hall amongst
others). But with a settlement expected fairly soon, he's back at work...

Mojo : Why did you launch yourself so wholeheartedly into the EG battle?

RF   : The dispute is about EG selling the catalogue to Virgin and the
       publishing company to EMI. I felt a deep sense of personal violation. EG
       was set up as a partnership between artists and managers, and to see the
       power and quality of that relationship violated so thoroughly left no
       alternative. I also acted on behalf of the 20-odd ex-members of King
       Crimson because, in the '90s, if we can't act wihout co-operation, there
       is no hope. I'm not a pacifist, but I am pacific.

Mojo : It must have been draining on all fronts. How has it affected your
       music?

RF   : It's ironic, but I've returned to it more strongly than ever. I'm mixing
       the Fripp & Sylvian live album at the moment. I'm halfway through the
       new one with Eno. There's an album with The Orb on the ffrr label out
       soon. I'm playing live on (BBC) Radio 1 with The Future Sound of London
       in May and there are some remixes of The Grid coming out soon.

Mojo : Plus the return of King Crimson. In 1974 you said 'King Crimson is over
       for ever and ever'. But you revived them in 1981. And again now...

RF   : King Crimson has a life of its own. It is a creative identity quite
       apart from the musicians who comprise it. I've even met it. In March
       1981 I was driving to rehearsals for my band Discipline and I became
       aware of a presence on my left in the car. It was King Crimson, the
       creative force. I got to rehearsals and the band was reborn. We weren't
       Discipline anymore, we were King Crimson. In 1994 the music has
       different shapes and colours but King Crimson is back again, allowing
       us to do things musically we could not otherwise achieve. There'll be a
       mini-album just for Japan this year and a fully-fledged Crimson album
       next year.

Mojo : What are your memories of supporting the Stones at the '69 Hyde Park
       concert...

RF   : It was only our seventh gig. It was great. At that time there seemed to
       be a world of hope and possibility in which musicians and audiences were
       in control to effect change. These days, I'm more interested in what
       technology has to offer, international communications networks like
       Internet which allows subscribers to become a cell in the global brain.
       It offers limitless opportunities. It's the future that interests me,
       not the past.

-------
END

---------------------------------[Steve Moore]---------------------------------
Oramail  : smoore.uk                   |
Internet : smoore at uk dot oracle dot com        |      'Questions are a burden to others
           skmoore at cix dot compulink dot co dot uk |       Answers, a prison for oneself'
Phone    : (0344) 383722               |
--------------------------------------o0o---------------------------------------

From: aaronson at aol dot com
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:58:02 EDT
Subject: Bearsville
I am dying to find a complete Tony Levin discography.  Anyone with details,
please e mail.

I also have a feeling that Crimson's new sessions are being recorded in or
around Tony Levin's home in Bearsville/Woodstock/Ashokan.  If this is true,
maybe someone in the area (I'm about 1.5 hours away) could keep their eyes
open for a small gig in local bars...

Adam Aronson
Sr. Consulting System Engineer
TransNet Corp., NJ

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 10:06:26 -0700
From: relph at presto dot ig dot com (John Relph)
Subject: New Fripp/Sylvian bootappendage
FYI, I just received a catalog listing a new bootleg of "FRIPP/SYLVIAN",
called _Kings Second Chapter '92_.  No further information but keep your
eyes peeled.  Please send me any information you are able to find, I'll
update the Fripp discography.

	-- John

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:46:46 -0600
From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man)
Subject: New KC Drummers
So it took two drummers to replace Bill......

--lizard man

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:18:18 BST
From: br at inf dot rl dot ac dot uk
Subject: The mystery busker
I have (at least!) one question for now: late last year, I was shopping in
Oxford's Cornmarket, when I came across a busker who was playing and
advertising the Chapman Stick (there was a board next to him with some of
the history of the Stick on it; no I can't remember any of it, alas).  He
was playing a laid-back jazz piece, but with a full multi-voice arrangement
- lovely!  It was great to see one being played up close.  However, I
didn't recognise the player (nor did I interrupt to ask questions!)

Some time later, when The Last Day came out, I realised that the photo of
Trey Gunn looked not unlike the guy I saw in Oxford.  I don't suppose
anyone knows whether it *was* Trey Gunn?  Alternatively, maybe you know it
couldn't have been him because he was elsewhere (can't recall which month,
but it was sunny which must narrow it down a lot:-) Or maybe you could tell
me who it was?

Some other immediate comments on topics in #131 : I'm surprised to hear
that Wetton likes to play the same thing every night, since the
Wetton-Bruford era Crimson were supposed to thrive on improvisation.  Of
course, I could understand Holdsworth wanting to stretch the boundaries
further (and Jobson wanting a rigid structure).

Cheers,
    Brian
----
Brian Ritchie, Informatics Dept., DRAL, Chilton, DIDCOT, Oxon, UK

Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 13:46:51 -0700
From: David A. Craig <dac at sbphy dot physics dot ucsb dot edu>
Subject: fripp/hendrix
forwarded from hey-joe (jimi hendrix list):

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 01:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: James John Hannigan <thefly at umich dot edu>
Subject: Fripp on JIMI

Anyone out there listen to King Crimson? I recently purchased a book on the
formerly-defunct-but-now-reforming band's leader, Robert Fripp, who has
some interesting things to say about Hendrix. The book says, "One name that
pops up repeatedly (in Fripp interviews) is Jimi Hendrix, whom Fripp cites
as an example of a pure embodiment of the spirit of music.  The intensity
of the musical current flowing through Hendrix is what killed him in the
end, according to Fripp. Hendrix's guitar technique itself, however, 'was
inefficient, and as an example, misled many young guitarists.'"

Also, in comparison to himself, "One might have a very direct, very innate
and natural sense of what music is, like Hendrix, or be like me, a guitar
player who began music tone deaf and with no sense of rhythm, completely
out of touch with it. For Hendrix the problem was how to refine his
particular capacity for expressing what he knew. For me it's how to get in
touch with something that I know is there but also I'm out of touch with."

Thought this was interesting commentary- JIM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:25:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Ajay S. Khanna " <askhanna at artsci dot wustl dot edu>
Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI

Yes, I've always thought that was an excellent remark, and very much
identifies the 'source' of the two player's work.  Like Bill Bruford said,
"you don't jam with Robert Fripp..." what could be more antithetical to
Jimi's overflowing musicality?  In Fripp's improvisations, you always get
the sense of a building out of pre-formed blocks, certain tones and
patterns reassembled into a coherent (but for me still fascinating) whole.
With Jimi, you get much more of a free-jazz vibe...sure, Jimi worked within
tonality and a certain rhythmic aesthetic, but his work overall is so free,
in terms of the overall sound of his solo, as free to me as, say, Derek
Bailey if you consider the whole sound.  Take the little bitty guitar break
on the studio "Fire" Sure it's a repeating motif, but the depth of the
sound and the sheer fat texture of the guitar sound as it changes over the
course of the break are just remarkable.

That type of organic variation cannot be built out of 'blocks,' but is just
the musicality of the player.  I thought it excellent of Fripp to 'admit'
to being an 'intellectual' type player which is usually castigated in our
still-romantically 'inspiration' prejudiced musical public.

Ajay Khanna

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 21:50:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: James John Hannigan <thefly at umich dot edu>
Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI

On Mon, 25 Apr 1994, Ajay S. Khanna  wrote:

> Yes, I've always thought that was an excellent remark, and very much
> identifies the 'source' of the two player's work.  Like Bill Bruford
> said, "you don't jam with Robert Fripp..." what could be more
> antithetical to Jimi's overflowing musicality?  In Fripp's
> improvisations, you always get the sense of a building out of pre-formed
> blocks, certain tones and patterns reassembled into a coherent (but for
> me still fascinating) whole.  With Jimi, you get much more of a free-jazz

Have you heard the "Great Deceiver" box set? Awesome stuff. There's lots
of "improv" like you talk about, but still with the feeling of spontaneity.

> That type of organic variation cannot be built out of 'blocks,' but is
> just the musicality of the player.  I thought it excellent of Fripp to
> 'admit' to being an 'intellectual' type player which is usually
> castigated in our still-romantically 'inspiration' prejudiced musical public.
>
> Ajay Khanna

And think of the possibilities if Jimi had lived and had gotten official
guitar "training", like he supposedly was interested in. It would have made
the best guitarist even better. JIM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 22:28:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Ajay S. Khanna " <askhanna at artsci dot wustl dot edu>
Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI

Absolute agreement here on "The Great Deceiver" and don't get me wrong- I
love Fripp.  The thing is that even during his improvs, he maintains that
same tightly compressed, amazing tone that he gets with that mega-sustain.
He seems to use this control as a reference point for departure- like at
points in his improvs where that nasal, tight tone takes on some feedback
or gets 'dirty' he bends it into another dissonant note in a
double-stop...Jimi seems to draw from absolute freedom, his guitar sound
and exploration derived from the combination of Jimi and guitar, like the
music is playing itself...with Fripp I get a very clear impression of Fripp
on his stool, whereas with Jimi I get this wild sense of exhilaration from
the chaos/order relation of Jimi and his guitar, much more like I'm
listening to something of a force of nature rather than a man!  That's
probably just because I'm so incredibly partial to Jimi's mastery.  But I
definitly love Fripp too and it made my musical year when GD came out
(finally) I think it's the best KC there is pre-80's.

But, sadly, agreement too on what we missed out on w/ Jimi's death...I
definitely think, from very limited reading, that he was dissatisfied with
what he was doing and wanted to move in new directions- and that almost
always signals impending great art- the artist works through the
established form to the point of dissatisfaction and then creates something
truly magnificent...like, as I've said here before, Coltrane...but,
fortunately, we get peeks into the artistic beyond even on the poppiest,
most rock-formalistic Jimi tracks.

Ajay Khanna

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 13:24:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: James John Hannigan <thefly at umich dot edu>
Subject: Re: Fripp on JIMI

On Mon, 25 Apr 1994, Ajay S. Khanna  wrote:
>
> Absolute agreement here on "The Great Deceiver" and don't get me wrong- I
> love Fripp.  The thing is that even during his improvs, he maintains that
> same tightly compressed, amazing tone that he gets with that
> mega-sustain.  He seems to use this control as a reference point for
> departure- like at points in his improvs where that nasal, tight tone
> takes on some feedback or gets 'dirty' he bends it into another dissonant
> note in a double-stop...Jimi seems to draw from absolute freedom, his
> guitar sound and exploration derived from the combination of Jimi and
> guitar, like the music is playing itself...with Fripp I get a very clear
> impression of Fripp on his stool, whereas with Jimi I get this wild sense
> of exhilaration from the chaos/order relation of Jimi and his guitar,
> much more like I'm listening to something of a force of nature rather

That seems to be main dichotomy- natural ability and spontaneity on the one
hand, and intense intellectual training and a more mental approach to
music on the other. Of course, that's simplistic- Fripp has natural ability
too, and Jimi had his "training" on the chitlin circuit. But still, the
theory works. Can you picture Fripp playing behind his back or flailing
around on stage? Two different brilliant styles. I think Fripp's approach
is comparable to Zappa.
However, in the GD booklet Fripp talks about the improv stuff as being
similar to what you're talking about with Jimi, where whatever happens
happens, and the music is on the edge of either success or flaming
disaster. I don't think anything can compare to the risks Jimi would take
though.

> than a man!  That's probably just because I'm so incredibly partial to
> Jimi's mastery.  But I definitly love Fripp too and it made my musical
> year when GD came out (finally) I think it's the best KC there is pre-80's.
>
Definitely. That band is one of the best I've ever heard.

> But, sadly, agreement too on what we missed out on w/ Jimi's death...I
> definitely think, from very limited reading, that he was dissatisfied
> with what he was doing and wanted to move in new directions- and that
> almost always signals impending great art- the artist works through the
> established form to the point of dissatisfaction and then creates
> something truly magnificent...like, as I've said here before,
> Coltrane...but, fortunately, we get peeks into the artistic beyond even
> on the poppiest, most rock-formalistic Jimi tracks.
>
> Ajay Khanna
>

Yup. Oh what could have been.


Mike Stok